The Beginner Photography Podcast
The Beginner Photography Podcast
Mastering Light to Create Professional-quality Photography with Cris Duncan
#419 In today's episode of the podcast, you're going to learn a game-changing way of understanding lighting in different environments. Portrait photographer Cris Duncan shares his experience and insights on how to create soft light without expensive equipment. Discover how lighting can transform your photography.
THE BIG IDEAS
- Size matters: The size of the light source affects the quality of light. A larger light source produces softer light.
- DIY diffusers: You can achieve a large light source without breaking the bank by using shower curtains, frosted paint, or drop cloths as diffusers.
- Choose your market: Just like high-end dining and fast-food chains coexist, decide which market you want to serve as a photographer and focus on it.
- Family photography matters: Family portraits are like high-end steakhouse meals – they have a significant impact on society, providing a sense of belonging and individual roles.
- Client experience matters: Taking a client-centric approach and planning ahead can elevate your work and change the way people value your photography.
Resources:
- Join the Free and Private Beginner Photography Podcast Community: Connect with other photographers and access valuable resources in the community.
Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com
Connect with Raymond!
- Join the free Beginner Photography Podcast Community at https://beginnerphotopod.com/group
- Get your Photo Questions Answered on the show - https://beginnerphotopod.com/qa
- Grab your free camera setting cheatsheet - https://perfectcamerasettings.com/
Thanks for listening & keep shooting!
Exposure is objective. You're either properly exposed or you're not. There's no, Oh, that's close to being a good, no, it's either properly exposed or it's not or it's lit well, or it's not, but how you subjectively use that lighting is up to the, but the objective part has to be there. And what I tell my students is when your technical skills meet the narrative, man, then your images are off the chart, but I think you'll find your images have more impact and rise above when you have more direction light, because then you start getting more depth and more shape. And people don't want to know why they just know there's not. It's seasoned right. They just feel like it's seasoned better.
Raymond Hatfield:Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield and today we are diving deep with Chris Duncan. Chris is a seasoned portrait photographer out of Texas who is known for his mastery in light and creating visually captivating images. But first, the beginner photography podcast is proudly sponsored by Cloudspot. So whether you're looking to share your photos, sell your photos, or book clients, Cloudspot CloudSpot has you covered. You can kickstart your journey today with a free account and only upgrade when you are ready over at deliverphotos. com. Now, by the end of today's interview with Chris Duncan, you're going to walk away with three things. One. A renewed respect for technical mastery. Chris dives into the transformative power of understanding lighting. Which is just a tool that is going to elevate your images and storytelling abilities. Two, the art of harmonizing your skill with vision. Chris shares some of the magic that unfolds when you have the technical abilities and you are able to align them seamlessly with your artistic vision. And three, the gift of adaptability, where Chris shares how he turns the challenges of working in, a flat plains of Texas into opportunities with, creative brilliance in there. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, I'm going to share with you how you can download your free photography action plan, which is just packed with insights from our conversation today with Chris Duncan. So again, be sure to stick around to the end. And with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Chris Duncan. Chris, when it comes to lighting, lighting is a topic that many beginners completely get lost in, right? When we first get that camera, we get so excited about the potential of that camera itself that we almost look past lighting entirely. And then when we get to the point to where we realize that lighting is important, we feel lost. We feel like we're starting all over again. So again, I'm really excited to chat with you today. But before we get into talking about lighting. Can you share with us how it is that you got your start in photography in the first
Cris Duncan:Man, that's a big question to start off with. Um, I think I find like I'm similar to a lot of people I talked to, around the industry and, and the areas that we visit is started as something we just love to do as a hobby or a passion or a craft or something we did on the side. and that I just, something I like to do, and that just kind of grew out of that. Yeah. I wasn't a high school newspaper photographer or anything like that. my grandmother was a painter. My grandfather was a taxidermist, but he did a lot of photography. As a reference for his taxidermy. So, and then reference for my grandmother's painting. So they, they were photographers in that sense, but not like studio owners or professionals. And, just growing up, just experimenting more and more and finally learning about different educational opportunities and before you know it, here we are, 25 years later and it's, it's our livelihood and it's what we do. And
Raymond Hatfield:Okay. I want to go back there for a second, because it seems like whenever I talk to somebody, it always starts with, well, I started off with a camera. Here we are, 25 years later, this is what I do. And there's something in between, there's something in, in between there, something that I want to, that I'm always fascinated by, which is more of, you know, so many people pick up a camera and they decide, well, this is really challenging or a host of other issues. And then they just put it away. What was it about photography? In the beginning that what's something that you struggled with when you first started?
Cris Duncan:Well, in the beginning, what struck my interest in it is of all places where I picked it up was in seventh grade industrial arts class, which is shop. And then say, at least in Texas, in seventh grade, you had to do a little woodworking project. And then we did a little metal work working project. And then, some welding, we had lots of different parts of those trades. And one of them was photography and we had to create an image. And of course that time it was dark room and film. And if you've never experienced that feeling of seeing a blank piece of paper turn into something through the chemicals, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners maybe have not had that experience. That is, it's pretty cool. And at that time that was like. this is amazing. And so that was super thrilling and just exhilarating. Cause you didn't know what you had really until you got in to that point. So that's what really piqued my interest. moving forward. I just kind of picked up a camera, got to photograph some more, pictures of my feet and my dog and the trees and everything I could point it out, I would take a picture of. And finally, when we get to college, that's what I wanted to major in. And I had a girlfriend at the time that said, no, you really need a real major. And at that point, yeah. Ouch. So at that point I was mowing lawns, like a lot of high school kids do to make money. And I said, well, I'll go to horticulture, plant and soil science, which. If you're a horticulturist listening to this and you, I hate it. I still like working in my yard and I like mowing the grass and I like cleaning up and having a pretty yard, but I hated that, that course. And so I did some photography classes as electives. Fast forward after college, I'm about to marry this girl. We do get married and we're still married. So it's still the same one. And I said, I think we should do photography. And open a business. And she goes, no, you need a real job. And that sounds harsh. That sounds harsh, but in her defense, she would babysit for a family when, when she was at college in another city and family she babysat for was a photographer. And all she saw were past due notices and late bills and them always gone. And so she saw a different side of it. You know, and that was her initial perception. Like if you're a photographer, you're never home. You work all the time and you don't make any money. And so that was her perception. And unfortunately that may be some people's reality. And hopefully we can, through some education and some hard work, you can get to that point where that's not the case. So, I had a real job for a while. And in 2002, when we opened our business, I went full time in 2008. And we've both been full time since then. And this is, this is what we do. It's all we do. We're a hundred percent in.
Raymond Hatfield:So she joined with you. She became part of the business after all of that talk of no, no, no, this isn't going to work out. She became part of it.
Cris Duncan:Yeah. She was the first one to go full time. There was some, uh, life circumstances. I was working with my dad. He had an injury. I had to go back and help him. She stepped in. You know, that might be a story we can get to later, but yep, she was the first full time. So irony is pretty funny and the way it worked out.
Raymond Hatfield:That's great. Now
Cris Duncan:she's a driving force behind our business and wouldn't nearly be where we are today if it wasn't for Deanna.
Raymond Hatfield:Oh, that's great to hear. That's great to hear. So obviously in the beginning, we talked a little bit about lighting and kind of its importance. So at some point, I want to know more about that, that learning experience for you when it came to learning lighting. When did you realize its power and when did you decide to really explore all of its possibilities?
Cris Duncan:I think when we opened, we were digital. We didn't open with film. We've always been a digital media, as professionals. And of course you get that instant feedback. And I remember like, man, this is. This one looks good. This one doesn't look good. This one doesn't seem right. This one's too dark. This one's too bright. And I felt like I knew where it needed to be. I didn't know how to get it there. And so that was really frustrating. And in 2007, we went to imaging USA, which was in San Antonio, Texas and went to the print display. If you've been to imaging USA, they have their image competition and they have print set up. People that were entered that competition were accepted and I immediately saw a difference. And that work in mind, I mean, it was, it was palatable. It was noticeable. Like, no, it wasn't like, why is this good? It was like, I just know this is good. And at that point I said, I've got to figure out this lighting. I've got to learn. I don't want to be frustrated with it. And that was, that was me. And you think of your kid trying to ride their bike, you know, they're frustrated and they fall down and they get back up and they're just so frustrated. And when they finally get it, they, it's second nature to ride their bike. And I wanted to get to that point where my lighting became second nature so I could focus on the narrative and not the technical.
Raymond Hatfield:So how was it that you knew, I guess, right in that moment, I suppose. So you're looking at all these other photos and you see that that there's that difference. You didn't know how to get it. You knew what it was, but where did you start personally? I mean, there's a lot of different places to go. So did you start with strobes? Did you start with natural light and then how did it build from there?
Cris Duncan:No, I, I'd always, I mean, we went to the store and bought strobes. Like the day we opened, we started with strobes and, and flashes and stuff and some natural lighting. And the reason is that's what I'd seen when I had my senior pictures made. That's what the photographer used, or these umbrellas and different things. And when we got married, that's what the photographer used. So that's natural as I go, that's where I need to go. That's what they're using. But how I, to answer your first question, how I knew I use this analogy a lot when I teach. And so forgive me for, if I kind of go a long way to get to this answer, but I think it makes sense to your viewers is we've all probably had a really good meal. One that, whether it's for anniversary or whatever, we've had a great meal and we just know when we take a bite of that meal how wonderful it is and how satisfying it is. Most of your listeners probably aren't the culinary arts. So they can't eat a good meal and say, Oh, you know why this is good? It's because they did this process and they cooked it this way and this was this. They can't, they just know it works. But if that bite has too much garlic or too much salt, immediately, someone without any training knows something's wrong. And I felt, and I feel like our imagery is the same way. Our imagery is like a good meal. We have lots of ingredients. We have lighting, we have pose, we have color, we have key. We have composition. We have lens selection, all these ingredients. And the end viewer doesn't know what made it good. They just want to look at it. But if there's something missing. Like, if the lighting doesn't match the narrative, or the colors don't go with the key, or all of those things, and if those words are Listener's not there, I'm sure we'll get to it later. But if those don't match, even someone that doesn't know art knows there's too much garland. They can just feel it. And I felt like when I looked at some of those images at that display, I'm like, these are seasoned well, I've got too much garlic in my stuff.
Raymond Hatfield:Yeah. So that's a great analogy
Cris Duncan:and it's hard to explain that. I mean, especially on the radio. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you're just seeing our faces. It's hard to, it's hard to explain that, but. And it's almost like you're, you know, our daughter is like, how will I know when I meet someone and like, you just know, I can't tell you how, you know, you just know, you just feel it. And I just had that feeling like, okay, something in my work is missing and I need to figure out what it is. And to me, it felt like it was the lighting just because I'd always heard light will create depth. And I didn't feel like I had depth. And so I like, okay, I need to learn some lighting. So I found some people that I thought knew lighting and took classes from them and asked them to be mentors. And now some, there's some of my best friends.
Raymond Hatfield:Wow, that's incredible. That is incredible. And that, like I said, such a great analogy and so simple that almost anybody can understand that it's, you can almost apply that to anything else. Not even just necessarily photography. I mean, any, any hobby that I suppose that you get into. But yeah, it's so easy to tell, if something has too much salt or garlic, but when you have that good meal, you, you almost just suspend disbelief for a minute. You're just like, this is just great. Like I'm just going to enjoy this and that's going to be that.
Cris Duncan:You don't think about what went into it while you're eating. And if it works, it's only when it doesn't work, do you realize that you start dissecting what went into it. And it's kind of a, it's kind of a weird, like a, I don't know, almost against intuition. You think if it works, you want to know how it works, but you don't, you just enjoy it. Yeah,
Raymond Hatfield:yeah, yeah, yeah. You just enjoy it. You just enjoy it. So one of the places that I see most new photographers getting hung up is that, typically when you just get that first camera, maybe you don't have a light or an off camera light. So you go and do all your sessions outdoors or where there's plenty available natural lighting. And I know that you do family photos as well. Outside. Now, is that where you got started or did you get started? In a studio and then eventually move outside.
Cris Duncan:I actually got started doing mostly commercial work and I do quite a bit of commercial work, for local businesses. Some of them are national chain. Some of them are here, mom and pop shops. But, I got started doing a catalog for a company that's in Lubbock, Texas, and they make orthodontic supplies. So there's a real sexy. Yeah, real fun, real fun. Yes. Rubber bands and braces and wires and tools and jellies and all this different stuff. And so pretty early on, the reason I took that job is I could do it on my own time. I had another, I had another job at that time. So this was, and so every evening I'd try to get, a couple dozen products done in the studio. And at the time the studio was our garage. And so, that really helped me understand lighting. Cause I'm like, okay. When I look at this thing with my eye, it looks this certain color and shape. And then when I look at it on the monitor, it doesn't look that shape. And so there are a lot of trial and errors where I really had to figure that exposure out and how to light it, to get it, to make it look like what my eye would see. Of course, in commercial photography, that's a lot more, critical than, than in portrait photography, at least I believe it is.
Raymond Hatfield:So then when you went outside, when you started shooting outdoors, was it just an entirely different environment for you? Or did it feel. Did it feel very comfortable not having the same, amount of control of your light?
Cris Duncan:For me, it felt comfortable and from, and for your viewers or listeners, what I learned, and I think this will kind of go lead into what we're going with the rest of the conversation is in the studio. I learned that the light needed to be, have direction to it. I needed to have a highlight. I needed to have my mid tone and I need to have a shadow. The only way to get that is have some type of direction. It can't be at camera position. so I learned that. When I was doing this job and through my educational training and my mentor helping me with that. So I went outside. The first thing I was looking for is I need to see some direction of light. And so that kind of gave me an advantage to help where to place my subject in this certain scene is, does the light give us a direction? Just like on my face, you can see the light coming in here, highlight, mid tone, shadow, same with yours coming in, you know, with the lamp you have in your room. And so I was just looking for that. Okay. when I would go outside.
Raymond Hatfield:So what do you have now, obviously having been shooting for, for quite some time, your eyes have been trained. Now you go out and you see these things first of all, but for those who are still just getting started, what is your tip for them? How can they find that directional light?
Cris Duncan:One thing that I'll tell my students is find something in the scene that you know, should be round, a fire hydrant, a tree trunk, a trash can, something that should be round that, you know, it's round. look and walk around it. And when you walk around it, there's a point where that round object will look flat and there's a part where that object will look round. And when it looks round, that's when you know you have direction of light hitting it. If it looks flat, it's either all on the shadow side or it's all on the light side. If you get somewhere in between the shadow side and the light side, then you'll have that gradation of tones. And there, you know, you have direction of light. But you can't do it on something that's square or flat. It's gotta be cause our bodies are round. They're going to have some type of spherical shape. So I'm always looking at tree trunks. That's the easiest thing is look at a tree trunk. Or, you know, or a street pole or telephone pole to see if there's roundness there.
Raymond Hatfield:Oh, that's great. Just keep looking at tree trunks. I like that. That's going to change the way that I go out to my next session for sure. It's sometimes I hold
Cris Duncan:my fist up, sometimes I hold my fist up and I know this is radio and people can't see it, but I'll hold my fist up and I'll stick my thumb out from my index finger and. And middle finger and that kind of makes a nose shape and then I can move my fist around if you're watching this on youtube you can probably see it how oh now I start getting shadows, but if I go this way, oh, it's all flat And now and so i've kind of made a mock face with my fist and kind of We'll walk around and do stuff like that. So too If you live in a place with no trees
Raymond Hatfield:Yeah, if you're in a place with no trees, that's what you do. You use the hand. I like that. That's a uh trick I learned during, cinematography as well is that a lot of times you can tell, especially from this angle, which the camera can't see, but, I guess that that skin on the back of your hand right there, with the knuckles really helps with that. Oh, I think what's great about that, that, that tip, that idea is that a lot of times, when we go out. And I guess we're looking for lighting advice. Like it's so easy to hear, like, just look for even lighting, just look for consistent, just like even lighting, go into open shade. And this kind of, I don't want to say it goes against that, but it's almost like a different way of, of looking for light. Can you explain the difference between the two?
Cris Duncan:Well, I'm not going to argue. Open shade is great consistent lighting. Mm hmm. because it's indirect. so indirect lighting is beautiful. But if you're going to go into open shade, what I find most photographers do is they put everybody square to the open part of the shade. And so, open shade is under a porch, a building, or a canopy of trees right on the edge. Mm hmm. So you're not deep into shade. They're part of the shade is open. That's what that means. Part of that from, from that vantage point of your subjects. Part they're in the shade but in front but part of the area around them is open to the skylight coming in And so most photographers will put them square to that light coming in And so that just has a light hitting them flat flat on But they just angle their subjects this way into the shade just a little bit now that light is coming in at a gradation And so so open shade can be great and you can use it. It doesn't they don't have to be square into it Or you don't have to be square into them, you know? so I'm not going against open shade. It's just looking for direction of light.
Raymond Hatfield:I think what you did was, was you just went deeper into that concept. You know what I mean? Like still, still looking for that light. Perhaps it's just a really easy answer to give is like, well, just look for. Just look for even light and then that's it. That's all that you have to do. But yeah, I think that what you did there was was go much deeper into that and for that I appreciate that and I think that the listeners are at least I hope that the listeners are going to go out in their next outdoor session and really look at the light differently instead of just walking towards a spot of, of shade to put their subjects in, but really try to think about what it is that they're trying to find and how to make it more interesting now. So my next question is that I think, so my next question is,
Cris Duncan:I'm sorry, go on. I was gonna say, I think most photographers will benefit from this exercise, especially if they're trying to see how light is gonna react, especially in a natural environment. If it's under the shade of a tree or something, it's pretty. It's pretty standard when you get into an urban area and you've got light reflecting off windows and car when she, and all this stuff, it gets a little more difficult to see, cause when you think you have a point, you want your subject do a 360 walk around them and have their face follow you as you walk and there'll be a time where you can see it and like, Oh, there it is. And your, I will see it. It may take you a few times, but you will see it. Um, and so I think that's a, sometimes I forget to do that exercise, but just because I'm experienced in this and I have to remind myself, you know, I need to walk around and I'll find something that I hadn't seen before and it's pretty, it's pretty cool when you're like, Oh, I've been to this location seven times and I've never photographed this direction. It's better. It's better. I think it's better.
Raymond Hatfield:That's a great tip, man. That's something that I would never do. That's something that I would never do. I suppose that the way that I build a shot is I always look for the background first. And then I just put my people in it right in front of it. And as you can imagine, there are plenty of times where you get them in front of the camera and you realize, you know, this didn't work out the way that I was hoping it to either they're too hot or they're too under or whatever. That's a great tip. That's a great tip. Just, just take that moment.
Cris Duncan:And then you have to just, then you have to decide, do I move them to a new location or are we sacrifice one for the other? And, and I think both of those can be good answers. I'm not saying you can't put them in that flat light. You definitely can. You could probably sell it, but I think you'll find your images have more impact and rise above when you have more directional light, because then you start getting more depth and more shape. And people won't want to know why they just know there's not that seasoned, right? They don't feel like it's seasoned better.
Raymond Hatfield:So just seasoned better. That's going to be the quote for this episode. It's seasoned, but season your photos better. That's the, that's a lot of
Cris Duncan:analogies to, I do a lot of analogies to food for two reasons. Everyone has eaten before and most everybody has cooked something. Everyone has cooked something and culinary arts is a technical science and an artistic sub. There's an objective part of cooking and there's a subjective part of cooking. If you want to serve a medium rare steak, it has to be 145 degrees, right? That's medium rare. That's technical, right? But how you season that steak is very subjective. Photography is the same way. Exposure is objective. You're either properly exposed or you're not. There's no, Oh, that's close to being a good, no, it's either properly exposed or it's not now how you, or it's lit well, or it's not, but how you subjectively use that lighting is up to the, but the objective part has to be there. And what I tell my students is when the tech, when your technical skills meet the narrative. Man, then your images are off the chart and then that takes years to get to. Don't, I'm not, and that's where good food is. Their technical skills fit their narrative of that meal and then it works.
Raymond Hatfield:Yes. Oh, this is so exciting. This is so exciting. Suddenly, I mean, my mind is just raising right now, so there will be times that I'm sure that you have encountered where you are out, at a, let's say a family session, you're outdoors and you're you like the background, you like your subjects, but you need that extra lighting. How important is bringing in that extra lighting, or how often do you bring in artificial lighting while you're outdoors to make the shot?
Cris Duncan:Probably 95 percent of the time. Really? Why is that? Yes, well, for one, I live in Lubbock, Texas, and you can look at us wherever you're on the map, and if you look at some Google Earth images, you'll say, oh, bless his heart. It's flat. We don't have a lot of trees native to this area other than pecan trees. Most of the trees have been brought in from somewhere else. They've been transplants. So it's agricultural farmland and I know they have that in every state, but we don't have mountains or hills. And if you look at our almanac and historically we have 320 days of pure sun a year. And so that forced us to have to create the lighting because naturally it doesn't occur in some places. It might, where you have more tree cover or larger downtown urban areas or such like that. So, that's kind of forced me to do that. So I've, I've had to bring in artificial lighting quite a bit, just to get the good exposure. Second, I want to do that because I think it makes the eyes better. when I can get a nice strong catch light in the eyes, I can shape the subject a little bit better. I can overpower the sun if I need to. if a cloud does happen to come by or something strange happens, I can keep going. My color stays consistent. So there's lots of advantages to using that light source that I can control. The main reason I like to do it. Yes. Well, and the main reason I like to do it is very technical. And, if you're in an ambient light situation, window light or outside, and you're on, when you change one element of your exposure triangle, another one has to change. If I make my shutter speed faster, my aperture has to open up bigger. If I take my aperture smaller, my shutter speed has to go slower. They have to move in that direction reciprocal relationship. Once I use electronic flash, the intensity of that flash determines my aperture opening and then any ambient light determines my shutter speed. So when I'm using an external flash, I now have two independent controls shutter speed for the ambient and aperture for the flash. No longer are they moving reciprocally. And so that gives me so much more control from a technical standpoint to get a good exposure on subject and background. And it also allows me the other things like, Oh, good color, nice catch lights in the eye from a subjective point. But technically it gives me more control as the photographer.
Raymond Hatfield:Yeah. And ultimately that's all that we can ask for right there is, is that control? That's the difference between a beginner and a professional right there. Yeah, I don't think so. No, you're right. You're right. So, I guess that kind of brings me into the next few questions that I have about more of the professional side of the photography, which is, I'm sure that being in your area, as you said, the conditions almost always the same, so unless you're doing something different, like using flash, using artificial lighting, all of these other photographers could potentially look the same in their imagery. So would you say that your lighting, contributes to your success a studio, as a photography studio?
Cris Duncan:Oh, absolutely. think there's three things that define us different in the area. One is the lighting. And if you look through our gallery, some of it looked the same and some of it looked very different. I don't, maybe we have a style. I've never felt like we had a set style. other than just what sounds rude, but just good photography, I think is, um, And that's what we say. We specialize in photography. I think the lighting is a big part. Our color design, Deanna does a great job meeting with the clients, helping them select appropriate colors, posing them in a way that tells a narrative, and then putting them in a scene that matches that. And, you know, that's really her side of the business. I'm the technical guy that lights it, but she helps design it. And so I think that's a big part that That makes our stuff look a little different, is that, that care. And in Lubbock, where we have this big sky that no clouds, if you look through our galleries, you will find there's not many images that show a sky, you know, and we deliberately choose, I'm not going to show a sky. Why? Because the sky is, it's just boring. There's, I mean, it's just a big white, blue, light blue blob that doesn't benefit. Most of the portrait images we do. There's a few, but most of the time it does not benefit them. So why don't I put it in there? I'm not going to stick asparagus in a bowl of cereal, just because I have asparagus. It doesn't benefit the meal. So why am I going to do that? As somebody Yeah, somebody who loves asparagus, I can only imagine how not appetizing that would be. So once again, I love a good sky, but, uh, yeah, that's a very interesting way of, of looking at it. I love that. Yeah. And I think that you missed Uber. I think that you missed Uber. It doesn't benefit Lotto, yeah.
Raymond Hatfield:I think that you skipped over a really important part there, which is, the thing that sets you apart is that client experience, you know, that it is, that you're talking about and sitting down with your clients and discussing colors and how the photo is going to look. I mean, that's the thing that a lot of photographers don't do. It's very easy to send out a style guide, but it takes a lot to actually sit down with somebody and I guess personally plan out a session for them. And when it comes to being a new photographer, you know, many photographers, don't want to say that they can't look that far into the future, that they can't envision themselves doing anything like that. But most photographers get stuck in this, 75 or 100 price point for their photos, right? You come in, we'll have the session, I'll give you an hour and then I'll give you all the photos. 75, a hundred bucks, as somebody who is broken past that price point. Why do you think that is when many other photographers struggle to?
Cris Duncan:Oh, I think a lot of it's driven by fear and doubt, you know, and if we get psychological on it, I don't want to go too deep in that I think there's an, there's some type of correlation to where when people begin to their value, and I don't think that's true. Let's take an example. If a guy, let's say you, Raymond said, you know what? I've never had a car lot. I've never sold cars before, but I want to go into the car business so you can come down to my lot since I'm, I'm new and you can get this Ford Mustang for half the price of what it's worth. Just because I'm new. Cause I need to experience selling cars. No one would ever do that. You wouldn't open a subway franchise and, and sell your cold cut combo less because you've never had a subway franchise before. Or you can think of any other business. Most businesses, you're not going to do that because you're new to that industry. And so I think they're trying to put the value of the photography on the photographer. The value of the photography is what the client is, is on that client's family. That's the value. I mean, it's so, and so this is a good analogy to do on TV, on video. So maybe if you're listening to this on the podcast, go to the YouTube and look at this. Here's a 1 bill. Yes. Uh huh. Yep. And here's a 20 bill. They look pretty much the same and they're printed on paper, the same paper. What makes this valuable is what's on it. Okay. And the photograph, that's what I love. That's what makes that photograph valuable to your client. Is what's on it and so I think that goes, it's not who, some of it is who took it because if they took it with better care and skill, then it, the value of what's on it becomes more valuable to the client, but I think why people are not charging what they're worth is they're putting their value on their experience and their, how long they've been doing it and not what the client needs out of it.
Raymond Hatfield:Yeah. So how do you communicate that value then? Obviously, I mean, I can take a picture of myself right now on my cell phone and print it up on a little Instax printer, and that's going to be wildly different than if I came to you and had something professionally done. But how do you communicate that to our clients?
Cris Duncan:To a photographer or to the client?
Raymond Hatfield:For a photographer to communicate that to their client.
Cris Duncan:I think we can at least the way we communicate it is. When the client calls us, they're already looking for photography. Yes. They're calling, looking. There's already a need. So you can, you can grab that need. And this is really a question for Deanna. She's so much better at this than I am. So I'll try to do my best to convey how she would convey it. And hopefully when she listens to this, he doesn't not shake her head is, is when, if you were going to take a selfie of yourself or try to do it, a family portrait is stressful enough for a mom, much less if she's the one in charge of doing it. Okay. Not only she hit, she has to probably get her hair and make up the way she wants it and to take the same for a dad too. They've got to be prepared, right? They've got to help most of the time, settle mom down and say, just take a breath. All the kids, you make sure they're, they're coordinated and they're clothed and they're, they're straight and they look the best and they're behaving. And that's a stressful experience. So I think you communicate to a parent or to your client and we're talking family photography now. Under high school seniors or kids, it's like, Hey, mom, we got this. You have come to the right place. Just, all you need to do is make your, get yourself the way you want to do. Get the kids dressed. Actually, don't even get them dressed. Bring them to the studio. We'll help you get them ready. So you don't have to worry about them spilling juice on them in the car or messing up their ponytail or pulling out whatever they're going to do. Bring them here. We've got this. You've got generational love here. You have a family that's strong. There's value in this family where you're in the right place. We're going to make sure that this is exactly what you want. And so we got it, and I think it's no different if I do the same analogy, I can go in here and cook me a meal or I can go have me a meal could be the probably the same ingredients. It's a totally different experience. If I go to that restaurant and let someone say, Hey, we got you. How can we make this better for you? You know, there's a value. So that meal is more valuable, even though it's maybe it's a ribeye steak, it's the same ribeye, but that became a more viable product and process than if I do it myself. And I think too many photographers leave their clients in a DIY state. Okay, show up at this time and we're going to take your picture and then we're going to give you a disc and you can do what you want with my personal take that didn't satisfy that client's need. They wanted a family portrait and for them to show up without really any instruction and then to leave having to figure out their own product left them in a DIY state. And I don't think they call photographers for a DIY. If they're going to DIY it, they're going to set their iPhone up on a timer and do it. That's my take on it. That's my perception. not let our clients leave with a to do list. Now there's a to do list like, make sure you We want these colors. We want this type of design. Yes, you gotta come in and, and meet with us and, you know, we might want you to measure your wall. So there is a few steps, but they're not involved in creating their own experience or product they're an active participant participant in that
Raymond Hatfield:I've written down so much right here because I feel like right there, like, right, just that little bit that you shared right there was almost like a masterclass in the difference between what makes, a shoot and burn photographer and a real professional photographer. And just that last sentence there, which is just don't leave them with a to do list is, is a fundamental shift that I really hope is going to change the way that people look at their photography because I know that there's a lot of photographers out there right now. I'm thinking of one in particular. Her name is Carrie and I've been trying to convince her for more than a year now that she needs to be charging what she's worth. And there's just this hurdle that she keeps encountering and I think that right there could really help her right there. So thank you again so much. So much for that. So much. Oh man. I'm thinking about that all day. I'm going to be thinking about that all day because automatically I'm thinking of places in my own business where I'm leaving my own, wedding clients with a to do list. And I gotta, I gotta figure out how to fix that. So, yeah, thank you again for, for sharing that information.
Cris Duncan:Don't get me wrong, Raymond. I think there's a need in the market for different levels of service. Of course. There's still going to be, there's still going to be a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and there's still going to be a Subway. And there's, I mean, so the market needs both. I think the photographer has to determine which market do they want to serve and stay there. But I feel like family photography moves into that Ruth Chris Steakhouse. I just, because a family is so important to a society, to the success of a society, so goes the family, so goes the society. And so I think that is, my friend Alison Watkins out of Utah, if y'all look her up, she has a statement that having a family portrait will change the world because it gives, the each member in that family, a distinct role in a place that they belong, and that changes the world. And so I don't think that's something we can take lightly. You know, that may sound all flowery and cutesy and, you know, deep, but I, I believe that's true.
Raymond Hatfield:As somebody who, uh, who has, we had our family, like, professional pictures done, and I had these photos framed, and having young children looking at those photos on the wall. Every morning, when they come downstairs, I can attest to the importance of that. So I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's crazy. I don't think that's crazy at all. Yeah, thank you again for sharing that. want to get back now into the lighting side of things because this is, I feel like missed out on, on a few questions here and I know that we've got a few more minutes, so I will, I will make these quick. I think if you were to ask now, let me rephrase this question. Oftentimes, new photographers, they don't have all of the gear, they don't have all the resources that many professional photographers do, you know? So can you tell me maybe about a time early on that you had to simply make a do with either the lighting or the camera that you had and how it turned out?
Cris Duncan:Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have to make do with what you have for sure. I think every professional photographer needs some type of electronic flash. Whether it be a speed light or a studio strobe or whatever it is, they need some type of electronic flash. There's going to be a point where you need it. And it's a tool that is required in my belief to complete the job proficiently and professionally for the client. But regardless of what that is, I think there's three things that a photographer needs to know about lighting. And the number one I'll always say is size matters. The larger, the light source, the softer, the light quality will be. And so, but there's lots of ways to get a. And so we were like, Oh, I got to buy a big old softbox. No, you can put a, you can fire a flash through a shower curtain. That's frosted. You can, I use paint or drop cloths that I get at home Depot that I put on light stands. And they're now don't get the ones that are colored or clear plastic, get the frosted opaque ones. And then you have a big soft light source, bounce it into white paper. So I think there's lots of little things like that. But it all, but you have to understand the technical first. And so, you know, if we spent more time on lighting, I would tell you that size matters, and that'd be my first thing I would tell you is you have to understand how your size of your source reflects affects your light quality. And so one of the things starting out that I had to do was, cause I didn't have all that, I didn't have big modifiers. and that's where I'm like, Oh, well, if I can shoot, bounce this into something, then it becomes an effective larger source. That's why people tell you to bounce your flash off the ceiling, right? Why? Because now the light, the ceiling gets illuminated from the speed light. And now that large light source now comes down producing softer quality because the light source is bigger. I know it's a lot of technical stuff. But here's. Here's what I encourage all of your listeners is it makes you might want to curl up in your seat or, cringe a little bit, but this profession is all math. It's all physics, the least the technical side, but here's the, here's the exciting thing about that is don't cringe over it. You should celebrate over it because math is very predictable. Two 2000 years ago. And two plus two will be four. And in the next millennium, it's very predictable. So when you understand that. The math, the mathematical physics of how light reacts, there's no more frustration over it because it's predictable. And that to me is what's so exciting about the technical part. It's not something we should be scared of. It's something we should celebrate because once we understand it, all those frustrations of lighting go out the window, and then we can focus on our creativity and our narrative and our client experience. So I don't know if that answered your question, but
Raymond Hatfield:Yeah, you know, I had never, I had never thought about it like that before is that it's, it's I mean, you know, you get that a lot, it's a lot of math, it's a lot of numbers, it's not necessarily that you're adding two plus two or whatever, but I think the numbers do kind of confuse people and I'll admit, even in the beginning, I, I at times questioned my ability as a photographer, just because sometimes it was hard to nail down all of those numbers, but you're right. Once you get that, that grasp of the fundamentals, Two plus two was for 2000 years ago, and it will be for 2000 years from now. And that makes it a little bit easier. That makes it a little bit easier. Yeah. Yeah. This will be my last question for you? What do you think new photographers get wrong when it comes to lighting?
Cris Duncan:I can only judge on some of the work that I've seen in our area from new photographers and ones that I've mentored. but I think for one, they're not looking at light direction that we talked about earlier, find that light direction. And I think a lot of the times the exposure is wrong. The initial exposure is wrong and that's because they have so many different light values in a scene that they're not quite evaluating most of the time. It's the sky. The sky is going to be the hardest thing for you to control all the, I mean, that's, you can't control the sun. You just, right. Unfortunately, there's some ways to kind of get around it. Once you get more advanced, like I said, by adding a strobe, it helps you control the sun with your shutter speed and not your aperture anymore. So there's some of those tricks, but I think the exposure is something that new photographers need to nail down. And that's why we don't show a sky a lot. For one, it's boring and one, I can't control it. So why am I going to mess with it? Unless I have to have the sky and the image for a particular narrative, I usually don't need it. And I think most of our clients, most of your listeners will probably think, I'm not sure I really need this guy in a family portrait either, maybe if it's this, this family's on their boat at their Lake house. Maybe you have this guy in that, but most of the time, it's a nice close perspective and you don't need this guy. And that's an exposure, which turns out to be a lighting issue for them. sorry, what was the rest of your question?
Raymond Hatfield:In your opinion, looking at other photographers work, where do you see other photographers get lighting wrong?
Cris Duncan:Well, that I think, yeah, no direction. The exposure of the lighting I think is a problem. You know, I see a lot of preset ads coming through on social media, by these presets and I always look at the last image looks nice, but the first image that they started with in this preset, I'm like, well, It's because it's under, most of them are underexposed or overexposed. And I'm like, well, if the exposure was right on this first one, this preset is going to have a completely different look. And so, I mean, exposure comes back to lighting. If your lighting's off, then you can't get the correct exposure because you don't have it hitting the face or the subject the way it should. So that's a So that's a problem. I think exposure has got to be a photographer's number one checklist. If I'm going to, again, if I go to a cooking analogy, if I'm going to cook, my number one priority is that it's cooked properly. And then I go to, okay, well now I want to make sure it's seasoned well. And then I want to make sure that all the different parts of this meal compliment each other, like asparagus and Cheerios don't compliment, but asparagus, maybe with some shrimp might compliment each other or, or peas and carrots might compliment each other, you know? And so, but that's kind of my checklist as a photographer. Okay. Does, is the exposure correct? Can I manage my light values? Then I get to season it. How am I going to light it? How am I going to season it with my lighting? And then do they all think all the different parts work together? Do my colors match my composition and all that? That's kind of my checklist. So I think every photographer's first checklist is look at every value in your image, whether it's the sky, your subject, the ground, the background, all of your subjects, if you have seven members of a family, all seven need to be equally represented. Once you understand that exposure and you got that, then the rest of it becomes so much easier. And so I think that's where I see most people off when they begin. And I'm sure most of it's because they're using, they're in camera meter and it's everyone, it's going back and forth on some type of program mode. And there's a mindset of, I can adjust that in post. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can. But you sacrifice something every time you move a slider.
Raymond Hatfield:So just keep working on exposure in camera. Do your best to get it right. Keep practicing and go from there. Master that first.
Cris Duncan:Yeah. I think exposure has got to be our number one. Number one.
Raymond Hatfield:Man. Chris. Jeez. Man, I have to say thank you for so much for coming on and sharing, so much. I personally learned a lot, from chatting with you today. I know that the listeners are going to get a ton out of this as well. Before I let you go, why don't you let us know where we can follow you along online and keep up with you and your work?
Cris Duncan:Okay. Well, our primary website is cjduncan. com. We do mostly family portraits, and some seniors. And like I said, my commercial website, you can get through cjduncan. com too. We have three different websites for that. Our educational site is learn. findyourfocus. org. I am a PPA. Approved certification instructor. So I think any of your listeners that are wanting to move more into the professional world and make this a livelihood, I think the CPP program is a great place to start. I know in my class, it's a three day course, unless you do the online version, which is your own pace. If I teach it onsite, it's three days and it covers a lot of this technical stuff, but how this technical is applicable to your everyday work. You have to, and so when the technical meets the narrative. Then your images are unstoppable. Yeah, that's so great. And on Instagram, I'm CJ Duncan and Facebook it's learn with CJ Duncan.
Raymond Hatfield:I really hope that you enjoyed today's interview. Be sure to download your free Photography Action Plan that is packed with key takeaways from today's interview. And this is not just like a summary. It is a step by step guide to becoming a better photographer. So grab your copy now by joining the private and free beginner photography podcast community, where you can connect with me and other listeners to share your thoughts, share photos and ask questions over at beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group. Again, that's beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group. Remember, every click of your camera shutter is a new opportunity. And through the lens of possibility, you can envision your next photo. So stay inspired and I'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.