Evolving in Photography through Personal Projects with David Julian

#423 In today's episode of the podcast, you'll hear from David Julian. Shooting travel, street, landscape, conceptual work, he's a very diverse photographer. David shares his journey through photography, teaching you to embrace personal projects, seek feedback, let go of perfectionism, and find your unique voice. By listening to this episode, you'll gain valuable insights on diversifying your photography, pursuing personal projects, seeking feedback, and letting go of perfectionism.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Diversify Your Photography: Try different types of photography to learn and problem solve.
• Personal Projects Matter: Pursue personal projects to maintain passion and creativity in your photography.
• Seek Feedback: Show your work to others to know if you're on the right track and improve your skills.
• Let Go of Perfectionism: Embrace trial and error, and don't be too focused on the perfection of each photograph.
• Share Your Work: Get your photography out into the world to tell a story and be seen.

Resources:
David Julian's website
Follow David on Instagram

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

David Julian: 0:00

Honestly, there's no substitute for trial and error. A lot of people feel that error means bad trial and error doesn't mean bad person. It means a bad photograph, and there's a huge difference. And I may be sounding a little too psychological here, but from, I don't know, 26 years of teaching. I think what I've learned is that some of the big barriers that people put up about learning are really a fear not being good and good. Isn't as important as do. Keep doing, doing, doing.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:27

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hadfield. And this episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the easiest way to deliver and even sell your photos on a line. Today, we have an episode from the BPP vault where we revisit our treasure trove of interviews to offer both new and long time listeners a chance to uncover the powerful insights and practical tips to enhance your photography skills. So whether you're listening with fresh ears or a new perspective. Remember, there's always something new to learn. In today's interview, we are chatting with David Julian, who is a travel, street landscape, conceptual photographer, has taught over 65 workshops at the Santa Fe workshops, which is just one of the best places for photographers to learn and expand their ideas. And David is also an instructor at the Santa Fe. The University of Washington. Now, this year, I've really become aware of personal projects that I want to work on. And this interview with David has really reinforced, their ideas and has encouraged me to not only slow down, when things get tough, but to, stick at it, maybe that's a moment to dive deeper into it. So in this interview, we cover a lot, like one, the importance of personal projects, discovering how personal projects can fuel your passion, creativity, and growth as a photographer to seeking feedback. So learning how to separate your self worth from the external validation that we often crave sometimes, which can be hard, and all of that goes into continuously improving your skills. And then three, overcoming perfectionism, understanding, the value of trial and error, learning from mistakes and having the courage to let go, of the pursuit of perfection. Of perfection, which again, very difficult to do. There's a lot in this interview. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with David Julian. David, my first question for you is simply, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

David Julian: 2:28

I think the first time was when I dissected my father's, Topcon Unirex SLR camera when he was away on a business trip and I could barely put it back together at that point. I was going to either put that back together correctly or, face some serious retribution. But, in a more professional level, I believe that when I was working at Time Inc in my twenties, I went on a trip that was self directed to Trinidad and Tobago, and I brought, a borrowed Nikon F2 with me and had such an incredible experience documenting some of the locations and environments that I was in. And when I came back, I assembled a slideshow for my company and someone was from Nikon. I don't know why, but they were, and they offered me a small show at their headquarters in New York city. And that's when I realized there was something a little bit more than just making snapshots here.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:18

Yeah. That's a really interesting thing because I know that, we kind of live in this world today, maybe not so back then, but where people have, know, fantastic cameras with them all the time and they're okay with taking snapshots. And even back then there were plenty point and shoot cameras. What was it about photography that, you thought. Actually, I want to take this further than just simple snapshots.

David Julian: 3:38

I love the technology and I had a natural affinity for graphic framing. I would say composition was something that had already been really embedded in my life. Based on my interest in graphic design and my study of album covers and a lot of other sources for graphic design, including magazine layouts. So some of the things that I think are more difficult to learn for some people were already really embedded in my consciousness. And for me, then it was a matter of really figuring out the exposure triangle and enjoying the freedom that it gave me to move from place to place and bring my art medium with me.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:14

Did you struggle with the exposure triangle when you first got started?

David Julian: 4:17

I would say that because I was using fully manual cameras and using film, I didn't have the feedback mechanism that digital photographers have. And I would say that slowed down my learning. but as soon as I would get my slides back as it were, cause I was shooting transparency film and negative film at the time, I would be able to look at them and say that didn't work. That didn't work. And that didn't work. What did I do wrong? And so it was a process of self teaching. Through my memory more than through having metadata, which, of course, no one had back then.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:46

Right.

David Julian: 4:47

so yes, I would say that today, with all the information online and cameras that give you such quick, instant feedback of your work, it's not as hard as it seems, and I think a lot of people put fear in front of the actual learning process. as a teacher, I teach quite a bit. my belief is that It's very easy to learn if you let yourself learn it.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:09

going to write that down because I absolutely love that. It's easy to learn if you let yourself learn it. going back to when you first got those prints back from when you were shooting film and you were like, that doesn't work, that doesn't work. Was there a common theme for things that you typically wouldn't, I don't want to say wouldn't get right, but that you would want to be better in your images?

David Julian: 5:26

Yes, I would underexpose my images routinely. And I think it was that I was told by somebody that the best way to expose Kodachrome was slightly underexpose it.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:38

And

David Julian: 5:39

it turned out that I was taking that far too seriously, and I was underexposing it by a stop or stop and a half, which is unrecoverable, because at the time, of course, we were not working digitally. And I was making slide film, which meant that's what you get. There was no enlarger. There was no digital. I mean, there was no optical or chemical process by which I could correct for that at the time. So I started to learn about pushing and pulling film, and basically, I began bracketing. And that's really what saved me. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna go through a lot of film, but it gave me a lot more keepers and I started to realize what it was that I needed to do better, in terms of my exposures. And really started to see us a landscape, if it were, or macro, and say, okay, this is going to require that I overcompensate just a little bit here and there.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:26

Okay, so when you would see those photos and you would see that they were underexposed, that's a pretty, I think, easy thing to understand. these are too dark, right? And that I need to introduce more light. for you, was it, were you reading a meter wrong? what do you think that disconnect was?

David Julian: 6:40

Well, part of it was that I realized that, I was really quite taken by the polarizing filter that I purchased. And that you cannot polarize every situation. Especially when you're polarizing into shadows. Especially when you're polarizing people of color and doing portraiture in, what I'd call less than ideal light. Such as the rainforest. This is where I started to really do my most seminal work at the time. And so I simply learned, okay, you can't do that. You can't polarize certain skin tones unless there's quite a bit of light to compensate for that or else. it takes out the shine and the things that make people look three dimensional. So it was just a matter of trial and error and honestly, there's no substitute for trial and error. A lot of people feel that error means bad and the word trial and error doesn't mean bad person. It means a bad photograph and there's a huge difference and I may be. Sounding a little too psychological here, but from, I don't know, 26 years of teaching, I think what I've learned is that some of the big barriers that people put up about learning are really a fear of not being good. And good isn't as important as do. Keep doing, doing, doing.

Raymond Hatfield: 7:45

Plus, what is good, right? it's hard to define in something that's objective. Yeah, exactly. now that, you've been shooting for, quite a number of years. and you've had quite a bit of experience of your belt. I'm always interested to hear, like when you look back at those first photos, obviously some of them were underexposed, but aside from that, was there anything in those photos that if you were to look at them today, if say a student brought them to you, you would say, These are amateur photos.

David Julian: 8:09

Well, gee, I think all my photos were amateur photos. Well, of course. Because no one paid me to make them.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:14

I guess, I mean, like, what, what were those elements that were in the photos that would stand out to you today as amateur photos?

David Julian: 8:19

In my mind's eye right now, I'm recalling some of my earliest work, which I actually still have, and it was not getting close enough. it wasn't a matter of not having the right lens. It was a matter of me physically not having the right lens choosing to be closer to my subject. And I think that that was a little bit of my own fear of confrontation and looking through a camera. And maybe it's from growing up and having people put cameras in my face a lot during parties and whatever. And I felt a little bit more resistant to that. So getting close, learning your exposure triangle and. Getting out and keep doing it and doing it and doing it

Raymond Hatfield: 8:51

mm hmm. what were some of those first things that you were photographing because you mentioned at one point like the Amazon so like tell me how your journey through photography Progressed and where it took you.

David Julian: 9:00

Oh boy here goes. We're gonna dive into a rabbit hole there. We go you know I really love surrealist painting growing up and The camera gave me a chance to try to do things that were a little off color or a little bit different than the National Geographic photographs that I highly revered and put on pedestals and my actual goal was to go to places that I'd seen in these magazines sometime in my life and photograph, but I knew that until I did that, I needed to also express myself. So the camera gave me a place where I could take a walk on the railroad tracks of a extinct railroad and. Massachusetts, where I grew up and see what was there, see what had been cast off or left on the tracks. And so I made a lot of photographs of odd things, junk, a lot of people would call it and people would say, why are you photographing garbage? You know, there's all these people out there and landscapes. Well, it's because I actually think it's interesting to see what people cast off. And so those were some of my earliest photographs. That and, taking portraits of schoolmates, trying to do sports, but failing terribly at it because I didn't know enough about the game to make the right, to make, make the right decisions. But I think that the camera gave me a place, it gave me a reason to walk alone in the woods and really see more deeply what I had been passing by. So my earliest photographs were a combination of attempts at art, versus nature, nature, nature, macro landscape, heavy into nature,

Raymond Hatfield: 10:21

heavy into nature. I think, when preparing for this interview, obviously kind of trying to dive into some of your work. I think if anybody looks at your Instagram, it's kind of difficult to put your images like in a single or even a handful of categories, right? so I'll leave it to you. Can you tell me, what do you primarily shoot today?

David Julian: 10:40

I primarily shoot photographs. Perfect. Next question. Um, yeah. Um, it's been something in my life that I've always come up against is specialization. You know, the law of Darwinism says specialize or perish. But for me, I love to photograph so many different things. And, for me, sometimes I'm in the mood to do something about natural history. I want to make photographs of mushrooms as they come out in the fall or spring here in Seattle, or I might be interested in photographing people downtown on the street. So really, for me, I don't have. a true pull in any one direction unless I'm traveling and that usually dictates what I'm going to focus on the most. When I'm in the city, I'm photographing what's happening in the city. And when I'm in the woods, I photograph what's happening there. but people have never been able to nail me with a type of photography. I'm not a wedding photographer or an architectural photographer, but I've shot both and I love it. So a generalist, And a passionate generalist

Raymond Hatfield: 11:40

A passionate generalist. I like that I know that you know oftentimes new photographers can get stuck when it comes to figuring out like should I niche down because they're told that from everybody But then there's photographers like you there's photographers like Joe McNally who are like, no, I'm a generalist I will shoot anything that comes in front of my camera This may be a strange question But do you think that niching down comes specifically just from a business standpoint or do you think that you can still be guess I don't want to say successful cause that's a dependent on whatever your definition would be. But do you think that you can be a, proficient photographer? Do you think that you can dive deep enough into one area of photography? Do you think that you can learn enough about photography while shooting everything? I don't even know if that's a good question, but hopefully you can pull something out of that.

David Julian: 12:24

it's actually a very well put question. And even if it may have been difficult to ask, I think what it pointed to is the fact that we don't really know how to define the word generalist. For me, when I teach students who are new to photography, as in my University of Washington course, They are not concerned with being a particular kind of photographer, so they're trying everything and I honestly think that's one of the best ways to learn. Specialization comes later when you decide this is something I'm really good at and this is something I'm drawn to. You just have to kind of answer that question inside. But I think you can become an excellent photographer by diversifying, at least at first. and trying a lot of different things because they present different situations to problem solve technically, as well as logistically with how you respond to your subject. I was basically very shy. So, uh, didn't really like facing people with my camera until much, much later in my adult life. So that determined that I would be a landscape photographer and nature photographer pretty much for life, except for when I was traveling and I'd shoot the streets as it were. But, Yeah, we all go through phases in life, phases that are Based on our environment or our families and things that happen in our life and my phase was shy turning into bold street hunter when I started to photograph in the cities by traveling, purposefully to different urban environments. think I've morphed over time, and the personal projects that I've given myself have always been very different areas of type of photography on purpose to try something new to try a photojournalistic project.

Raymond Hatfield: 13:56

When it comes to those personal projects, I love talking about personal projects cause I think it really can give insight into what people are genuinely interested in. And I think one of the things that I hear a lot from listeners of the podcast or that they are scared to take photography full time, they're scared to start charging for photography because they're worried that they're going to lose that passion. that they have. but as somebody who shoots a lot of, personal projects, is there anything that you can say to the benefit of the creativity, of the process of creating these images without being commissioned, I guess, or are you being commissioned for your projects?

David Julian: 15:20

it depends on the project. There are things that I spend a whole year doing on the side that I leave a set up to do when I'm doing something such as some of the fine art, projects I've done using assembled objects and telling stories with objects, but honestly, if I can address that, I feel that, Commerce and motivation have to be clearly defined. If the only reason you're using a camera is to make money, then you'd better choose something that makes money with a camera. And that's not difficult to break into and compete with, but the true passion of photography should be separated. In my opinion, from the commerce of photography at first, and I think that's one of the things that gives permission to people to try different things and see what really resonates. Because my belief is that unless you take a corporate job with photography, you're going to be best at what you're really passionate about. And you're not going to find out what that is. until you try a lot of different things and personal projects are the best way of motivating yourself to try different things without The overhead, as it were, of worrying about the income and pleasing anybody, you should only be pleasing yourself. That doesn't mean you should be getting your entire ego wrapped around the likes you get on social media. That's a huge trap. And I know that I'm not of the generation where social media is something that we were born with, but I think it's very important for people to develop healthy outlook on their work without needing the. affirmations of many, many, many people say it's good, you know, when it's good,

Raymond Hatfield: 16:49

you know, when it's good, but how cause I, okay, I'm going to challenge you there because there's people in the beginner photography podcast community who will, be shooting for a long time and I will look at their work and say that they are a proficient photographer and they will post a photo in the group and say is this any good? so where do you think that comes from?

David Julian: 17:07

I think it comes from the inquiry of wanting verification that your work is good. I think that when a person gets a very, very small signal of excitement from looking at their own photographs because it's better than the others around it on their computer or on their light box if they're still shooting film or whatever. I think that there's a tendency for us to, to Be drawn to one frame versus another, but to still want affirmation or acknowledgement that is true from someone who's been shooting longer. And I think that's why it's very important for people to study photography, not just do photography. I think I'm almost a hundred percent self taught, but when I really think about it, am I, it's just that I may have not had an instructor, but I was not self taught. Self taught would have meant that I saw no books. I saw no museum exhibits. I saw no gallery shows. We're not really self taught. We're just simply choosing how we decide to teach ourselves. And teaching ourselves can even be by taking full college courses or many, many, many workshops. You're still teaching yourself, but you have other people to tell you, here's how I do it. Here's why this photograph is incredible. And this one's really not. It's a matter of just filtering information. But I do think it's important for people to get. Outside opinions. And that's where mentorship comes in or courses like yours. any way that you can get other eyes on your work that are educated and experienced is a very good thing. I think the trap is when people. Don't ask the right people those questions.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:37

Yeah, see, that's, difficult, right? and that's, again, something that I struggle with as well. And I think it was David Duchemin who said that, the perfect photography school would be simply one camera, one lens, like a thousand rolls of film, Don't come back until you've shot all of them, right? Don't talk to me until they've all been shot, right? there has to be this journey of self discovery and like what you like in a photo. let me ask you, because this is another thing, because I think that a lot of people like the idea of going to school or getting a course, obviously because they can have somebody who they can get feedback from, but also because it gives them a sense of direction in which And where they should go, right?

David Julian: 19:16

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:16

So with you doing a lot of, personal projects, projects, where you come up with this idea in your head, are you giving yourself, certain constraints to follow in order to better a certain aspect of your photography? Or are you just going just for the final image and everything else kind of figure out after the fact? Does that make sense?

David Julian: 19:37

Yeah, think I can make sense of that. I feel like I will have what I call an intention, and I will define that intention by making notes, sometimes even drawings of what I want, if I'm doing something that's based on still life that I'm going to probably make some kind of thumbnail sketches or doodles that'll give me some ideas on how I want to light something the rest of its pure experimentation on that kind of project. But if I'm learning street, I'm going to look at a lot of great street photography, decide why it is that I love that particular. Photograph for another one. And then I'm going to say I want to do work that has that kind of power and all the while I am going to post some images, but I'm not going to decide that's my endgame, is to, Oh, I'm doing this in order to get a lot of likes, or I'm doing this in order to get a lot of feedback. But it's necessary that I get some. Even at this point of my life, I'm sometimes my worst critic, so I do need someone else to say, This is actually the better photograph, not the one that you're going to post. You've chosen so it's somewhat of an emotional decision as well as a tactical one. And I love what David said. and I think he's a brilliant person to follow is that we need to keep practicing, keep practicing to keep practicing. I think the piece of that sentence that might be missing for me is we do need to show our work in order to know that we're in the right track and doing the right work.

Raymond Hatfield: 20:58

Again. Yeah. that's another thing that that's another part of the equation. It's like if, as I think it was, I feel like I'm just full of quotes on this one. Like it was the Ansel Adams or whatever, who said, there's two people in every photograph, the photographer and the viewer. It's so great. Yeah. But, I wonder sometimes, as the photographer, how much do you care about the viewer? think about that? Do you think that that matters, or is it more about you, the photographer?

David Julian: 21:22

I think that's a really great question because it's important to, as an individual, make that decision. If you're the kind of person who's insecure enough that you feel like you can't judge your own work, or you're too harsh a judge on your own work, and you really do need someone else to say, This is a better photograph than another one. Then, that's one type of person. Other people are not that fully invested in the emotion of their own work, and they have a chance to be much more open to, you Outside inquiry or outside choices. And I think that everyone who uses a camera, no matter how good they are in their own mind, or no matter how bad they are in their own mind, all they need to do is keep finding people, mentors or workshops or classes or groups or camera clubs meetups. anyway, you can interact with other people. We'll do three things for you. It'll make you a better photographer because you're around great photographers, mediocre photographers, and sometimes not so great photographers. It'll make you a better photographer because you're practicing and you're showing your work and you're getting input. It's part of the clan mentality of the human relationship to other humans. We can't be isolated. We can't be alone. that's basically walking into a box and staying there. And I think that As creative as you may feel when you're alone walking in the woods with your camera and that may be your need for solitude or space or to repair if you're peopled out. It's also important to have community and this in what you're doing, Raymond, is community. you're building exactly what people need, especially for beginning photographers. It's fantastic. That's why people are tuning in.

Raymond Hatfield: 22:59

Thank you.

David Julian: 22:59

Thank you. They believe that.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:01

What do you think about people like Vivian Maher, who went their entire lives, without, some of her closest family knowing that she was a photographer? How do you think somebody like her becomes the photographer that she was? Do you think it's a lot of her looking at her photos, breaking them down, and then trying to be better?

David Julian: 23:19

I would say that over time that must be what it is or must be what it was. The film doesn't show the giant piles of tens of thousands of photographs that she rejected herself. May or may not have thrown out. Um, I mean, I have a photograph somewhere on my phone of two complete garbage bags of slides that I decided to finally part with because I knew that I would never look at them again. So. think I might be straying off the question, but

Raymond Hatfield: 23:47

well, let me ask you out of those two garbage bags of slides that you threw away. How many from those roles do you think were keepers?

David Julian: 23:54

Oh, probably one or two per role. Yeah. my hit rate was sometimes based on weather conditions. I was trying to fight it, especially if I was shooting in the tropics. And sometimes it was based on just not being connected. At the time I was making the photographs, I was just shooting cause I was there to shoot.

Raymond Hatfield: 24:11

Yeah.

David Julian: 24:11

That wasn't connected in.

Raymond Hatfield: 24:14

Why do you think you weren't? Do you think it was, I'm sorry, I'll let you answer that question.

David Julian: 24:17

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think I remember once going to a drag race when I first started shooting, cause I thought the action of that was something I really was attracted to. I didn't know the first thing about a drag racing or where to be or, or what lens to bring. And so I completely approached it poorly, but what I learned was maybe I'm not really cut out to do that. First of all, I feel deaf from having been there and, uh, it just wasn't something I was naturally. I didn't have that inner feeling of wow, I can't wait to get back here. Like maybe someone who's shooting pro sports for the first time just goes, my God, this is incredible.

Raymond Hatfield: 24:55

Right.

David Julian: 24:55

but what I realized about myself and I think everyone does know this internally is what are you most attracted to? What environment, what gives you the most adrenaline or calm? what do you function best under? And it turns out that I function best under extremely calm situations, such as being alone in a fog in a meadow or by a pond, as well as being on an incredibly complexly busy street in a foreign country where I don't know the language. I function. Equally well in both conditions. And there's a lot in between that I don't.

Outro: 25:27

Hmm.

David Julian: 25:28

I had a wedding with a camera. No good. It's not my thing, Yeah. I highly revere the people who make a lifestyle out of that and a good living.

Raymond Hatfield: 25:37

I'm trying to think. Yeah, I guess, that is an interesting question to ask myself. Where do I thrive in the chaos or the calm? I think it's interesting. I think as a wedding photographer it almost becomes calming like over time because you really you know, you understand the cadence of a wedding you understand this is what's gonna happen next and you just try to go from there as long as you look for the light I don't know. you can always make the best out of anything. Anyway, back to personal projects out here real quick. When you have an idea, is it just maybe for a single image or is it for a series of images, that you want to accomplish? We'll start there.

David Julian: 26:09

That's a good question too. I feel like I have a vision in my head. It could even be something that I dreamt, or maybe something that composited in my mind through other things I saw along the way. I have a vision of something, and I know that more than one of them would be a better story than just a single piece. That said, I have done projects where I've set up something to photograph over time. because that was part of the idea is, was the metamorphosis, and it turns out only one of those frames really was any good, and I had to go and find a different way of approaching the same subject. I think, again, it comes down to practice, practice, practice, and, image series project over, two seasons, uh, two, two projects. And I think it's always very challenging to them to commit to doing a series of anything because their life up to now has been mostly one offs. But I think that the commitment to doing something and seeing it through is a very important part of learning photography and a part of the natural experimentation that comes with following through with something.

Raymond Hatfield: 27:09

I couldn't agree with that. Anymore. yeah, seeing something finished is huge, especially when you're just trying to learn what, the buttons do on your camera. When you're able to have this idea and go out and shoot it and finish it. That is a big thing for sure. So when you have this idea, maybe could you tell me what is the most recent, project that you've been working on so that I can try to use this as an example?

David Julian: 27:32

That's a really good question. What is most recent project? I'm currently have just moved, so I had to put everything aside, but one of the projects that I'm doing right now is called Precious Things, and that's the working title for it, and it's actually a project that's stretching me quite a bit from my comfort zone because it's a series of portraits, and it's a series of it's actually diptychs. It's a portrait of a person holding their most coveted object, and it's a portrait of the object. In a very formal way, in other words, it's not just a snapshot of the object on a table, it's a more formally constructed portrait lit, much the same way you would if you were doing a portrait of a person. And the idea is, it's not so much the visual, it's the story. As well as the visual. So it's true storytelling, but it also uses words. In other words, it uses a short story about the person's relationship to that object and why it's so important in their life.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:27

Wow, I love this. So, for you, what is the end goal? Is there something particular that you are trying to practice to get better at in the series?

David Julian: 28:37

Yes, it's portrait lighting. It's not something I take too naturally, and it's also working under different conditions because I'm traveling to people's homes now that, COVID is mostly behind us. I believe, I believe it'll be time to rekindle this project. I basically shelved it and, 2020 as many people shelved a lot of projects and Aside from my travel workshops and traveling. That's the thing that when I'm home, I'm going to be doing the most in fact I'm considering bringing it on the road and doing it also where I travel.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:08

Oh, that's cool That's because

David Julian: 29:09

what better than to diversify your project with stories from people of other countries and other walks of life

Raymond Hatfield: 29:15

Yeah, exactly. Oh, that is cool so if Portrait lighting is going to be your thing to, focus on. How are you going to judge whether you did a good job or continue to need work?

David Julian: 29:27

Well, I think by now I'm pretty good judge of my own work in terms of its technical abilities. it's going to be looking at the photograph and saying, is that the best photograph I could have made of this person and that object. But also, I have what I call a board of directors, which isn't, isn't, really a board of directors, their friends, photographers, and designers as well. who I know whose work I love and whose opinions I trust. And I also know, and they know that, I am not wrapped up in the yes or no, whether a photograph is good. I just want to hear what they say about the photograph.

Raymond Hatfield: 30:00

Oh, wow. That is cool. So are these Just friends of yours, just people who you trust. Did you reach out to some of these people?

David Julian: 30:07

There are people who I've known along the way. some of them are photographers, who have reached the pinnacle of their career or past the pinnacle are now sledding towards retirement. And so they've seen. Tens of thousands of good images in their life, and they know what to look for. One is a fine artist who is not a photographer, but I really appreciate her judgment, or I should say her opinions. because she's not a photographer. She's looking at things from a much different, point of view. I would even show some of my students. the work and say, well, let's talk about this. I'm not invested in your response. What is it that you feel about this work? Because fresh young minds and then these older people who I know as well, who are more in my own vintage, I think diversity of information is really the best way of getting, going forward.

Raymond Hatfield: 30:53

You and me both, that's why I started this podcast. That is the exact reason why I started this podcast, because I want to hear everybody's opinion and why they. Shoot what it is they shoot and how because I know that there's a million ways to do something. guess I want to know does your judgment of a photo? Will it always take over for whatever anybody else says, you know, some of these people have been shooting for decades. And if they're like, David, this lighting, it's garbage. And you look at this photo and you think, I love this lighting so much. What do you decide at that point?

David Julian: 31:24

Oh boy. Well, I would be deferring to their opinion, especially if they are known for their lighting. I can't imagine that I would actually show a photograph that was that bad. Because I'm such a harsh critic. In fact, I'm such a harsh critic that I know that I profess more than I do when it comes to, being easy on myself and, I'm very harsh, but, yeah, I think at the early stages of the project, I'll get input on the technical edge of things so that I can. Not keep making that mistake over and over and over again, because I don't really don't have the time or the leeway to keep making the same mistake over and over again. I want to know soon. I remember what Joe McNally said. In fact, I'm glad you brought his name up because he's all time favorite of mine. I think he said one time in one of the interviews that he brought images back from a paid shoot and the art director said, these all suck. Yes. Like, what, were you thinking? Yeah. And he said, that was a very harsh lesson and, one that I value very much. And that's the sign of a really good secure person is when they can hear that and still go into that and still go right back into the fire again and do it better. And I think that I just want to take a second to say that the thing that I feel. And I mentioned this at the very beginning. I think the thing that is most important for photographers learning photography to know is that the comments about their pictures are not about themselves.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:43

They're

David Julian: 32:43

about the picture. You have to to make that separation. And if you don't make that separation, then you're not going to grow because you'll feel that someone doesn't Think that you're a good photographer, and that's not the point. That's not the point.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:56

Yeah, absolutely. I'm right there with you. but that can be challenging because we as photographers are so connected to what it is that we do, right? Like, it is our baby, we feel. so when somebody has, negative input on a photo of ours. It feels like they're talking to us. Like they're saying that we are not good

David Julian: 33:17

because we made the photograph because

Raymond Hatfield: 33:18

we made the photograph. Exactly. even though. We may not know, you know, we may not have the technical aptitude to be able to say exactly what we wanted in that photograph. We still feel that the fact that we made it is anyway, it doesn't matter. Again, let's go back to this lighting example, right? you said that you're going to, try to get information, or that you're going to try to get technical information before so that you don't waste your time. So you're reaching out to, your mentors, your group, your board member, to say, Hey, this is a project that I'm going to work on. would you guys do this? Or do you have any input specifically on, lighting?

David Julian: 33:51

Yes, I would ask for input on lighting in a heartbeat. the students in my commercial program are amazing. They have been learning lighting for two years and they have access to a full studio and some very, very good equipment. that is not what I have, so I would definitely want opinions from a variety of people from someone of their vintage to someone who's older and has used, lighting for quite a number of years. And I'm not invested. if I thought I knew enough not to ask them the questions, then I wouldn't ask them the questions. It's clearly that I'm open to the answer. Otherwise, why ask the question? Right. And if you're showing your work to people, I'll just say one thing that I catch people doing when I start working with a new mentoring student or a student in my courses or workshops, is when you put your work out there in front of people, don't make excuses for it. Just put the work out there in front of them and listen. Just listen. Don't say, oh, well I could have done this better, but you know something, forget all that conversation. Just put the work out there.

Raymond Hatfield: 34:48

So is the point of that just to take in all the information and then give it time to digest and separate from our own ego in the photo and then readjust.

David Julian: 34:59

Yeah, and it's also, to let the person, first of all to honor their time and to let the person know that. You're vulnerable. that's the most important word I can say is you're allowing vulnerability by saying, is this photograph good? Or what can I do better? And if you're allowing for that by going for the question to begin with, then don't make excuses for what it is. That's like saying in a conversation to someone you've just met at a party, well, I had a really difficult life, but You just don't start a relationship or conversation or a learning environment with a pile of things that are your own personal.

Raymond Hatfield: 35:33

I'm thinking about this and, I'm trying to imagine because I'm sure that there are times where, man, I feel like I'm doing the worst job, with these questions right here because I feel like everything that you're saying to me, I'm almost trying to find, example like in which you could find the opposite, I guess, because, to understand how great something is, we almost have to know, like, where it came from. You know what I mean? so where do you think then that comes in? where do we introduce that? I've had a really difficult life, part of the equation.

David Julian: 36:02

Well, it may have been a little bit of a stray from the reality of it, but, if a student sends me 12 images and then we're on Zoom looking at them and I have a chance to digest them a little bit beforehand and then we're going through them on a screen share and he or she says, well, the weather wasn't that good. So this is this and this is this is okay. So what you're telling me is that. You yourself feel insecure about whether these will be good because you know you had some hardships along the way, or you know things weren't ideal, and I can hear that and say to myself, okay, I should really take that into account. But really, what we're here to learn about is what's in the frame. yes, there's a little bit of conversation, and I may say, can you tell me what you were doing when you made these photographs? And then. Let's not talk about each photographs problems before we even talk about the photograph.

Raymond Hatfield: 36:52

Gotcha. Okay, that's a much better example than what I had heard. I apologize. I don't comprehend words as as fast as maybe I should especially For being a podcast host you would think that I would be better at that back to the whole personal projects thing. I want to know, like, what for you is the end goal? I understand that learning either a new skill or, practicing something and becoming a better photography is the ultimate end goal, but for your photo. what's the end goal for that? Is it to print and, put on the wall behind you and then it's done or what?

David Julian: 37:23

That's a really good question. I think it's very important that I say a few things about what I see as beneficial in doing personal projects. The end game would be, in my opinion, to share it with the world, right? Otherwise, you're an island making work for yourself. And there's people with Thousands of pounds of photographs like that in their attics and basements. And I myself have a garage full of things I have not shown the world. But I think that it's important to say that you're doing a personal project because you want to share something about yourself. You said something very important at the very beginning of this podcast. And I think that what I took from that is a photograph is both about what's in front of the camera and the person behind the camera. That's not how you phrased it, but that's the takeaway. And so, if you're doing a personal project, it's partly to investigate and explore something and the adventure of exploring something you are drawn to. And in doing so, you're going to naturally tell your story to other people. I care about this. vase full of flowers and I'm going to photograph it with true belief and passion towards my love for flowers and vases. And I want other people to see what I see when I light them that way, or to show them that way. It's the true spirit of sharing and art is meant to be seen by more than the person who created it. Even if it's not art yet, the word arts very heavy, you know, that means something is really successful or not.

Raymond Hatfield: 38:45

Yeah, that is beautiful to think of. okay, let's think of this, this possible of a full of flowers right there, and talking about the way that you want to light it When you do end up shooting something, do you have a very concrete idea of, I know exactly what needs to be captured and I'm going to capture it this way? Or how much experimentation are you doing, while shooting to discover new things?

David Julian: 39:07

I think because I commissioned photographs for a long time as an art director, I had a vision of what needed to be done and what I was hiring someone to do. That has been hard to break past a lot of the time. So if I have a visual in my mind and I have something I want to achieve, if I'm too rigid in my expectations of what that should look like and what the process should be like, then I will let go of the potential of something to naturally evolve. Organically grow from that idea into something better than that idea and that's called iteration in my opinion and one must start out with a vision, but to know that that visions basically fuzzy and possibly going to go away as they experiment and organically see what actually happens the process of of feedback of what you just saw. What if I change this, that little interior or internal conversation is the thing to pay attention to when doing personal projects, not, am I achieving my vision?

Raymond Hatfield: 40:03

So we're not trying to be different just for the sake of being different, but listening to what voice in our head is saying, well, what if we just tried this a little bit different and then dive deeper into that?

David Julian: 40:15

That sounds about right. Yeah, think that everyone. knows somewhere along the line that when they were a child and they scribbled on paper and mommy said, Oh my God, that's so amazing. They know at that moment that they felt something good. Yes. If you were instead told, well, can you try that with a little bit more blue, then you would have had a different experience and maybe you would have learned. The first thing you do isn't the last thing you're doing on paper. it's part of that conversation of saying, If I keep experimenting, I'll only learn more. And if I go too far away from my original vision, I can always pull it back. But to have the experience of variation, much like when you're shooting. I tell students, if you're attracted to something and you're out photographing, Keep shooting it. Make variations. put your body in different positions. Don't just stand there with a zoom lens and try different. focal lengths, or different apertures or different speeds, but move yourself around and see how many different ways you can connect to that subject. And that's the iteration that I do with my personal projects as well. and I may show some of those early iterations to people, or I may not, I may just discard them myself and say, Oh wait, this one feels best. Now that I've realized that, Oh yeah, I want to have less light around the subject because I want more of a glow or something like that. There's a response that we see. And we need to pay attention to the messages in that response.

Raymond Hatfield: 41:40

Is it the same when knowing when to be done?

David Julian: 41:44

Oh boy, that's a hard one. I'm terrible at knowing when to be done. Same. I think that first of all, I get lost. and I just want to keep working on it because I think that there's just one more thing I haven't tried. There's also the, this is a big one, the word perfectionism. many of us keep tunneling into something because we feel it's not perfect yet. And I'm totally guilty of that even though I, I profess for people to let go of perfectionism. You know, listen to David Dushman, he's got podcasts about it. I assign those to my students that required listening.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:19

So how do we get over that though? How do you know that balance between, wait, wait, I'm really close, or I'm just spending way too much time to not get much more return on this?

David Julian: 42:31

I think that's maturity and just learning through experience, how much time you're wasting or how much energy and to sit, get away from the camera for a bit and go somewhere else. and just say, why am I pounding that nail further into the wood? It's already there. am I done yet? should I just say, This is really has achieved my vision and my vision will always keep changing if I keep poking at it but shouldn't I move on to something else or cross train myself with a different kind of photography and That's what I try to do is have two different things going on at once if not three.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:04

Oh, wow So is it fair to say then that no photo will be perfect But at some point you just have to let go of the reins and move on to the next thing

David Julian: 43:13

Well, I think that gets into an existential question about perfection.

Outro: 43:21

But

David Julian: 43:21

honestly, there are some photographs I made in the series a long time ago on a six by seven transparency film. And, it was a very exacting process. That was the largest camera I could work with at the time. And, When I look back on them now, I realize that the iterations that I did in order to get to those photographs were the important part of the process because they ended up differently than what I originally planned on doing. I even sketched out what I wanted to do. it was like a self assignment. But when I look at the ones that I feel now are the best photographs, it's because I let go at one point and said, that is as close as I'm going to get with that. And it's good enough. And when I show it to other people, they don't know what's missing. Yeah. I know what's missing. yes, I could have lit That wing feathered a little bit better on that bird's wing that I posed next to this group of objects.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:11

I'm writing that down because the fact that people can look at a photo and not know what's missing Sorry, I cannot they weren't there at once right? Yeah, exactly. weren't there They don't know but still I think it's that perfectionism that holds so many people back when they I don't think that the goal in most of photography is to be perfect, but it's simply to do. And if you just do, you're going to be better than, I mean, 99, you're gonna be better than a hundred percent of the photographers who don't do, who are so focused on the perfectionism that they never get even to the point of doing. And that's something that I struggle with, where it's like when I come up with an idea, I try to come up with the perfect plan. and it never goes according to plan. So then I try to plan out an even more perfect plan and then that doesn't go according to plan. And it's hard to still, get the momentum to continue to go. So for people like me, and I would say people like yourself who are focused on that perfectionism, is there any advice that you have to help us encourage to continue to just do?

David Julian: 45:13

I hope I can answer that correctly. I feel that

Raymond Hatfield: 45:16

it doesn't have to be a

David Julian: 45:17

perfect answer. Yeah. Right. Right. It doesn't have to be perfect. there's so many things that come to my mind on that question. one of them is that, you will learn the most by, and this is nothing I've dreamt up making mistakes. They're not mistakes. That's not the right word. They are just simply the process of evolving and I don't mean evolving like you're involving as a person, but evolving as a person who sees and evolving as a person who also knows when to let go and evolving as a person who knows that, that the snapshot of the moment of that process, Will look different than the snapshot of that moment. Two seconds later of that process. You are evolving, you are learning, you are maybe not achieving your expectation, but letting go of those expectations is a huge part of learning photography and just keep doing it. Keep doing it. I think everyone who's listening to this podcast should watch videos by people like Jay myself. Santa Fe workshops. Phenomenal place to do workshops. they put out a series of photographs called, I think inspiration by put on by Santa Fe workshops. And one of my favorites is by Jay. Myself. And he just has some beautiful gems to talk about there. And he talks about the thousands of photographs that were no good, that he thought was, were good. And everyone has had that kind of conversation, but you have to let go of your own expectations of what each photograph needs to be. And just know that you're getting better and getting better and getting better. I'm not sure I even answered your question. I tripped into another thought, but that's my rabbit hole way of being. I think that it's just a really good idea to know when to get out of your own way.

Raymond Hatfield: 46:59

That's a hard thing though. And to enjoy

David Julian: 47:01

the process. Yeah. I think the better, thing to ask yourself is not, Are these photographs perfect, or are these photographs excellent, even, or to judge that is, am I growing as a photographer by making these?

Raymond Hatfield: 47:14

Wow, yeah, and I feel like, we're once again, getting into existential ideas here, but knowing, if you're going to grow from these photographs again, because I feel like every time I take a photo, of course, I'm going to be a better photographer, right? Every photo that I take, the goal is to be better than the last photo that I took. So on top of that, how can we ensure that the answer is yes and not no.

David Julian: 47:38

Well, I actually Don't go about my photography that way. I don't expect each photograph to be better than the last. I expect that each time I decide to get up off my butt and go out making photographs, I'll be better than if I'd stayed home. I feel that I could make lots and lots of terrible photographs by just deciding to leave the house. But I feel better for having tried. And I feel better if I Make one photograph that I even keep, and I'm a ruthless editor. I mean, you people are amazed at how few photographs are in my Lightroom catalog. It's like, what? Are you kidding me? It's like, no, I treat it like film. I don't shoot that much when I shoot. And unless I'm shooting wildlife that's moving or something that's moving. And I edit ruthlessly. I actually do this process where I select all the photos, I hit X and then I deselect the ones that I'm keeping.

Raymond Hatfield: 48:27

So you mark them all, every single photo is a reject . And then you choose a photo to, and I longer and I go back and I go, okay,

David Julian: 48:32

that one hit the U Keith. The un reject. Un reject, unre, reject. And then all those that I hit, go to a. Collection and I go and review those later. And that way I'm just making my process a lot more ruthless and I'm less likely to have a lot of chaff that I have to hold on to.

Raymond Hatfield: 48:48

Oh my goodness. I'm going to have to try that. That sounds so interesting. Cause it, you know, I think everybody's so used to doing it the exact opposite way. everything's a keeper. Now I have to pick which ones are bad. And obviously professionally shooting weddings, I'm willing to bet that that's going to cut down the number of photos that ultimately ended up getting edited and delivered by a ton. but also I struggle with, you know, just photographing the kids. Cause it's like, even if a photo is not technically a great photo, I think just emotionally as a parent, I'm just like, Oh, but I love this photo. I'm just going to go ahead and keep it. But if I go ahead and mark them all as rejects, it's really going to force me to pick better photos. That's great. David, we're at the end of our time here and I feel like this just blew by at a million miles an hour. So, I want to, first and foremost, thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you have. This has been a very fun, conversation, even though I've, I feel like I probably did a terrible job and pushed you a little bit too hard in several places. But before I let you go, can you share with listeners where we can find out more about you and your work online?

David Julian: 49:45

Oh, thank you. first of all, I really enjoyed the process and yes, I think I rabbit holed many of your questions, so I apologize for that, but I think we met in the middle and said some great things.

Outro: 49:53

Yes.

David Julian: 49:54

you can find me at davidjulian. com. expect that there's a lot of. Drop down menus that you have to go through to see who I really am. And, there's also a link there that goes to my blog, which hosts my workshops and, other articles that I've written. we do have some really good workshops coming up and I just want to attract people to check them out and see whether there's something that resonates. Doing a workshop, called the art of intentional travel and street photography in Maine coming up. That's one of my favorites to do it. Main media workshops, as well as going back to Cuba in December. this will be my eighth time bringing people to Cuba. So I'm very excited to do that.

Raymond Hatfield: 50:28

I want to thank David so much for coming on the podcast. I have three big takeaways. One, to embrace personal projects for growth and creativity, undertake those personal projects, that you are thinking of that you want to explore so that you can, find new and different areas of photography to, to do. Develop your own skills, use personal projects as an opportunity to learn. they're so great I mean David shared about how his personal project where he's photographing both Person and the object that is most dear to them What he's doing is he's using that to become an opportunity to grow his skills with lighting That's perfect. also the importance of seeking feedback and learning from others. David has, a board of trustees, you know, a place that he feels safe to share his work with trusted friends and photographers, or like David, designers. Which allows him to receive just valuable feedback and improve upon his technical skills. Maybe you don't have a mentor, but you can always join the, free and private beginner photography podcast community to learn from experienced and fellow photographers, to gain that different perspective. And of course you can. Join the community over at beginner photopod. com forward slash group. And then lastly, to let go of perfectionism and embrace trial and error. Ooh, this is a hard one, to accept that mistakes are just part of the learning process and do not actually define your abilities as a photographer. So just focus on, continual practice and experimentation rather than striving for perfection in each. I really hope that you enjoyed today's interview with David. I would love to hear your biggest takeaway again, in the free and private beginner photography podcast community. So come join us, ask questions, connect and even get feedback on your work. And again, you can join by heading over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group that's beginner photopod. com forward slash group. So until next week, remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outro: 52:30

Thank you for listening to the beginner photography podcast, keep shooting, and we'll see you

Raymond Hatfield: 52:35

next week.