The Beginner Photography Podcast

Crafting Purposeful Branding Image with Abby Grace

• Raymond Hatfield

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#463 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with Branding Photographer Abby Grace, and you'll discover how to infuse your photography with genuine storytelling, service, and strategy that will transform your brand photography from generic to truly compelling.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Embrace the Power of Visual Storytelling: Elevate your brand photographs from mere snapshots to narrative-rich visuals that connect deeply with your audience.
  • Service Over Shots: Begin your photography journey by serving others, and the quality of your portfolio will naturally follow.
  • Strategic Planning Pays Off: Thorough preparation and research before shoots ensure that your photos align with your client’s branding goals.
  • Learn from Experience: Pursue opportunities to work alongside a mentor and capture real-time events to refine your anticipation and execution in photography.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  • Engage with Clients Before the Shoot: Schedule a consultation call to understand your client's brand, their vision, and the message they want to communicate through the images. Prepare a detailed questionnaire for your clients to fill out, capturing essential information about their brand identity, target audience, and the feelings they want to evoke with their photography.
  • Craft a Strategic Shot List: Research your client's industry and competitors to identify visual gaps and opportunities for their brand photography to stand out. Curate a shot list that includes diverse scenes, from close-ups of the client's work process to wider shots that encompass their work environment, ensuring variety and depth in your portfolio.
  • Master Your Camera’s Manual Settings: Take time to practice with your camera, experimenting with different ISO, aperture, and shutter speed settings to see how they affect the outcome of your photos. Challenge yourself to shoot in manual mode during your next few sessions to build your confidence in adjusting settings on the fly and understanding the lighting conditions.
  • Conduct a Beta Client Session: Identify potential beta clients in your network who might benefit from your services and approach them with a tailored pitch offering a session that aligns with your portfolio goals. Execute the session with the same professionalism and dedication as a paid shoot, ensuring valuable experience and quality images that reflect both your skill and your client’s brand.
  • Analyze and Reflect Post-Shoot: Review the images from your session with a critical eye, assessing whether each photo aligns with the client's brand story and goals. Select the strongest images to show your client and gather feedback on what worked and what could be improved, using this information to refine your process for future sessions.

Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Abby Grace:

When you deliver a podcast, what form does that take? It's digital. There's nothing physical there. It's an intangible concept, right? And so how do you illustrate that with the tools that you use? Right? Is there any way to show more of the process than just the literal here? I am doing my job. Like if you were a watercolor artist, I wouldn't just show you sitting there with a watercolor paintbrush. I would also want to show you sketching and erasing and. Mixing your paint colors or sifting through prints that you sell. Like it's so much more than just the literal interpretation. Literally anybody can take a picture of a water colorist holding a paint brush, but like, would it occur to you to have her sit down and package prints that she's going to sell or that she's going to send off to the clients? Like, how can we go beyond that?

Raymond Hatfield:

Welcome to the beginner photography podcast, where each week we interview the world's most interesting photographers. To learn what it takes to capture beautiful images and compelling stories so that you can start to do the same. Welcome back Photo Friends! Today we have branding photographer Abby Grace on the podcast today, who is going to share her unique yet should be common sense approach to capturing awesome branding images. Now, even though I am not a branding photographer, I can assume that well, they need a way to deliver photos that they have taken to their clients. And in today's service based world, Google Drive or Dropbox just won't cut it. When working with a business, the pressure to deliver an amazing service is higher than ever. That's where CloudSpot comes in. Not only will your gallery look amazing for your clients, but the friction free downloads will ensure that you are top of mind next time they need new photos as well. So head over to deliver photos. com to sign up for a free cloud spot account and get 10 gigabytes of storage. For free. That's a lot of photos that you could deliver. So again, grab your free CloudSpot account over at deliverphotos. com. And speaking of service, on top of sharing the five layers of a great branding photo, how being purposeful is better than perfect, and how to photograph the intangible, I'm We spend a lot of time talking with today's guest Abby Grace about having a service based mindset in photography. Lots here today. With that, let's go ahead and dive on into this interview with Abby Grace. So Abby, my first question for you is, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So it was, I was in college. It was my junior year, second half of my junior year. And I took a dark room class and I'd always wanted to take one. I just thought the concept of photography was really cool and I wanted to be able to take cute photos of my friends. so I took a dark room class and there was something magical about learning how to shoot film and learning how like aperture and ISO and shutter speed all interacted with one another without being able to see the results on an LCD screen. So like almost, it wasn't guess and check. It was make an informed estimate and then go to the dark room and see what happened. And I, I mean, I fell in love. So like two o'clock in the morning on a Friday night, all my other friends are out partying. I was in the dark room because I just could not get enough. I actually made myself allergic to developer and fixer. I spent so much time handling the chemicals that now like my skin flares up if I were to touch the chemicals. Um, Yeah, but like there was something that just captivated me and it was, I think part of it was this is something I'm good at and I like it for me, not because someone has told me, Oh, you're good at that. You should pursue it. Or you, you could do a lot with that. You know, that could be a strategic move for you. It was just like, I loved photography and I loved it for me and not because anyone else told me I should. And then realizing like, Oh, I think I, I think I might actually be pretty good at this. And so I had a conversation with my professor, Kathleen Lincus at Radford university. And I was like, do you, do you think like I could make a go at this? And she was like, yeah, I do. And it was enormously impactful. Like how much time she took to review my portfolio and like the encouraging feedback I got from her. And then I realized. That I really liked stalking people's wedding pictures on Facebook. Like I would go to like a weird link to see Oh, that person, I commented on someone's profile and it looks like their cousin also commented. And I think their cousin's bio photo might be a wedding dress. And maybe they have wedding pictures that I could look at. and then I realized I could marry those. So it was like halfway through my senior year and I was like, should I change my major to photography? And my parents were like, absolutely not because I was majoring in communications with concentration in PR at the time. And so I finished my degree and, knew when I graduated that I wanted to be a photographer, but I also knew that I didn't have any kind of, There was absolutely nothing for there for me to start a business with. So I spent a year apprenticing under another photographer. And after two years in the corporate world, I left and I went full time. And that was almost 10 years ago. So it's been bananas. I don't chew weddings anymore, but it's, that's how it started off.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. So I got a few questions for you just based on that right there. I'm always interested in that discovery of photography in the first place, because, there has to be a reason why we get into this thing, you know, why we love this. So, when you chose to take that darkroom class, and you said you just wanted to take pretty photos of your friends and whatnot. Yeah. But, if I'm thinking 10, 12 years ago, there was still, Digital photography was around, like, why would you pursue that rather than, I don't know, just continuing to take, like, okay, hold on, let me restart, why did you decide to dive deeper into photography past just taking snapshots of friends?

Abby Grace:

Well, so I had bought a digital camera. It was what the summer of 2008. I bought a Nikon D40 with a kit lens. And I was so excited. I, I, used some inheritance money from my grandfather and like inheritance sounds really bougie. It was like, it was my money that I was using to live off of when I was in college. And I had enough. left that I could buy this camera and I found a good deal on it and I bought it on July 4th. And I just, there was, I, I, I don't know what it was that made me, I've always loved people. I've always been a people person. I'm a huge extrovert. I think the concept of how humans interact with one another is Fascinating. I'm actually writing a new posing lesson for our students inside brand photography Academy. And it's not starting with okay, what are the poses for brand photographers that work best? It's like, no, let's start with the psychology of human interaction. Like, let's talk about how like your shoulder position communicates maybe something subconscious that you weren't even thinking about and like how you can use that to your advantage or maybe be wet. Like for women, your shoulder pop like this, it's actually a flirtatious thing. I think that's funny. And so like I was studying communication in college and like my favorite course was interpersonal communication. And so I think maybe the camera was just a way for me to magnify and like document the deeper side of humans beyond just like what you see in a passing face in a crowd or in a classroom to like get to know someone. Using photography.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. That's a whole lot deeper than I was expecting than most go. I love that. So you get the camera, right? You get this D40. Did you just throw it straight in auto? Did you go into manual? You straight into auto. Okay. I remember

Abby Grace:

though, there was, I think it was Ken Rockwell. Okay. Yeah. Who makes the, uh, the like manuals Yeah. That are kind of like, they're way more intuitive than the like manual that comes with your camera. And my grandfather had pointed me towards that. So I bought the one for the D 40 and I remember sitting at basketball games 'cause I was on the pet band. That was really cool. And I was in the pep band and I remember bringing my D 40 with me along with this Ken Rockwell, booklet. And this was before I had taken the, darkroom class. So this was like, literally just like what's aperture and him explaining, Oh, when you open the aperture that it, that the depth of field decreases. And so you'll see more blur in the background. And I remember fiddling with that. And I was like, it's nothing's changing. Well, cause my camera was still on auto, nothing was changing. But I remember that like discovery process of, what does like the mechanics of photography and being very confused by it until I took the darkroom class.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, because when shooting in film, everything was going to be full manual. Right.

Abby Grace:

Yeah, well, I mean, like you can't change your ISO. So that's not a, that's not a factor anymore. Like you either put 400 speed film in your camera or you don't like that wasn't a variable that I had. I mean, it was, a variable, but it was a variable that was constant for 36 exposures. So I wasn't having to worry about flipping that from scene to scene.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when you did start, So shooting in film was really the first time that you started to tackle shooting a manual and taking control over your settings and whatnot. Aside from starting from the beginning and learning all of it, right? That's a huge mountain. What, was there anything in particular that you found to be a struggle to, be able to capture the images that you wanted to?

Abby Grace:

Um, I think at first I was struggling. Like I really wanted to capture pretty things. And I was like, well, I'll point my camera at brides. Brides are pretty. Right. I didn't understand why I was drawn to that. I just knew like, it's pretty, I was taking the literal, like, I like this. Therefore I should shoot this. I like pretty things. Therefore I should shoot pretty things as opposed to like, what is it about that beauty that attracts me? Is it the story of redemption of, of meeting my own husband and wanting to capture that for other people? Was it, truly just an aesthetic thing? Because. I feel like that can only get you so far for so long. Like, where is that deeper attraction? Like, why weddings? Why brides? Is it the innocence? Is it the joy? Is it the party? Is it the florals? Like, what is it? Because for so long, I was only coming at it from the aesthetic. Like I like pretty things. I'm going to put my camera at pretty things, which are brides and flowers. But like that, you can only shoot so many bouquets of pink peonies before it starts to get boring. If you're not committed to something deeper than that, then the story. Surface level aesthetic is only going to take you so far before you get bored and you want to move on. It's got to be more substantial than that. I mean, as photographers, sometimes we have to make choices about like what we choose, what kind of work we choose to do because we need to pay our bills. But like, as an artist, you know this. It's like, hard work owning your own business. And if you're not in it for something more substantial than just a paycheck, like oftentimes an easier answer is to just go get a job for somebody else. You don't have to worry about EIN numbers. And like, did you file your quarterly estimate? So I think that search for what am I really doing here? Why am I really doing this? I am a person who approaches, you and I were talking before we started recording. Like I approach anything I do with a high commitment to excellence. And so if I can't do it excellently, I don't want to do it because. I know whatever I'm doing, like the photographs I'm taking, those are just a representative of something else. So what do they represent? And I think finding that answer and struggling to find it, like that was tough. And I didn't realize what I was looking for.

Raymond Hatfield:

So what did it take for you to, to find that answer? And what is that answer?

Abby Grace:

Yeah, I think it was when I realized I was talking to my dad and, he had a picture of him and my mom, on their wedding day, as the background of his phone and it like clicked like, Oh, this is the reminder of the woman that he committed to for better, for worse, for richer, for poor and good times and in bad. And like this photo is a daily. Visual, like almost visceral reminder of that commitment that he continues to pursue love can just as much be a choice as it is a feeling it is an action as well as a feeling. And I was like, that's, that's what I want to do. I want to help people focus on what matters most through their wedding photographs and like what matters most on the wedding day. Isn't the exact combination of color palette that you use or the flowers. It is the moments between humans that remind us of why we were here in the first place.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's beautiful. But weddings. Okay, actually, hold on. I got one question before we move on. And that was the whole, you know, you went to school for PR. Parents said, don't do photography. You said, you know what? I'm gonna do it anyway. Yeah. I'm always interested in that decision right there. When you go to school for something and then decide, no, no, no, there's something about photography that I love so much that I want to pursue this above anything else. What was that?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. I mean, I think it was just the unadulterated, like passion and joy that I like the, I mean, the hours in the, in the dark room were massive. There were so many hours in the dark room. And I felt like I was in a flow state when I was there. but like, I didn't necessarily like communication felt like, yeah, I'm good at this. Like I can do this. I don't have any doubt that I could go get a job in comms and be great, but like, there's nothing like on fire in me when I'm writing a press release versus like when I walk out to take a camera, like I walk out on campus with my camera or I walk into the dark room to develop a new, there's like an excitement joy that I haven't found in anything else that I've done. I think it was just, it was that like, this is mine. And I'm good at this and not only am I good at it, I love it. Um, and, yeah, my parents were terrified. They, they weren't like anti photography. They were just like, no, you can't change your major because that's going to be like an extra two years of school. And also, no, you cannot get a fine art degree. like you're almost done. You're six months away from graduating and just finish. And it wasn't like a realistic, like, should I actually change my major? It was just like a fleeting thought in the back of my mind. And my dad was like, yeah, hard pass. No. Yeah, I think it was just this discovery of like something that was mine and that like I was good at I was unquestionably good. I mean, I wasn't amazing at it at first, but it was like there's a talent here that could be cultivated and grown. And there's also I also really love people. And this is a really cool way for me to marry my love of people. with this like art form that I I've always been an artistic person. Like I want it so badly in elementary school to be a good draw. Like I took a couple of drawing classes. It was horrible at them. Then. So photography was the first art form that I felt like, Oh, this is how I, like, I've had this creative desire for so long I did music all the way through college. Like, it was met in that capacity in some ways, but like photography was the first like visual art that I felt like I could express myself and express what I was trying, what was in my head. I could put it on paper in a way that I couldn't do with like paint or pencils.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love that. But the idea of, knowing yourself enough to, I guess, bet on yourself. And where you want to be in your future. That's huge that I think a lot of people just suppress inside. So again, thank you for sharing that and hopefully giving somebody some, inspiration to do the same if they're in a similar situation. But we got to the point to where we're shooting weddings. You're now done with this. And today you're shooting what?

Abby Grace:

Branding. So I'm a, brand photographer for high performing creative small business owners. So I come in, let's say someone's it's typically, I don't typically work with new business owners just because the intensity and the, the rate of what I do is high enough that it's typically not accessible to new small business owners. And I will also more than that, it's typically not. A good fit for new small business owners, because they're still figuring out what they want their brands to be about. And so I'm working with established businesses who small businesses, creative small businesses, like artisans and wordsmiths, calligraphers, copywriters, I have a client who is a Facebook ads expert, like people who work with their brain in a really creative way and also often with their hands. And then I come in and I put visuals to their messaging. So like, whatever it is, their message, their, their, collection of messages that they are distributing to their audience. I put. Photographs to those to help their words line up with their visuals.

Raymond Hatfield:

So where did this come about? You love photographing, pretty things, brides, you know, pretty things. And now, now branding, where did that, where did that start?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So it was an accident. Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

like many things in photography.

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So Natalie Frank is a dear friend of mine and she was making the pivot from wedding photography into more of like community leadership and, writing and speaking. And this was in 2016. So she was like, Hey, I'm working on a new website with general instead of tonic side shop. And I need some new photos done for my website. And she and I both thought you would be the perfect fit. And I was like, why? Like, I've never, this is. Why would you ask me? All right. Like, if you want me to, that's fine. I think I charged her like 500 for a full day shoot because I was just like, whatever. It's just like between friends. And I showed up and I shot it exactly like I would a wedding day. Like I, what time do I need to be there? Where do I need to be? Okay. I'll show up and hope that the pinspiration fairy graces me with her presence and I'll just create something pretty on set. And it was beautiful. The photographs are beautiful, but they were not purposeful. And I did, that didn't bug me at first. Cause I was like, these are so cute. These are going to do super well on Instagram. And they did. And then we had, it was so weird. So I guess Jasmine star saw the photos because then we got an inquiry from a real estate agent in our area. And she said, hello? Yes. Jasmine star referred me to you. And I was like, I'm sorry. What?

Raymond Hatfield:

Like where does that come from?

Abby Grace:

Can we flash back to the 2011 Abby who would be flipping out right now? I shot for her and then I didn't like more inquiries started to slowly trickle in because people saw that I was doing this and branding photography was kind of becoming a thing and as brand photography started to pick up speed, I was looking around me and seeing all these other photographers who were calling like, oh, I shot these brand photos for someone and like, really all it was was just a collection of. Someone smiling at a Macbook pro, like here I am smiling at my laptop. Here I am clutching my cute anthropology mug. You can tell their brand photos because I'm tucking my hair behind my ear and laughing at the camera. And I was like, these are so boring. Like these are, it's just the same thing over and over again. And these brand photos, which were intended to help our clients stand out and connect with their people. Are actually just making them blend in because it's more of the same garbage being regurgitated into the social media atmosphere. And like, it's just, blurring into the background of the scroll. And like, I think I can do better than this. I like, I think the reason I hate this is because I can, I know I can do better. And so I started thinking like slowly this mindset shift started to happen of like. Oh, brand photography requires a totally different mindset than like weddings or families or, or just like lifestyle portraits. Like you have to, in In order to be an effective brand photographer, you have to think like a marketer and a strategist. And like, I'm a good marketer. It's like one of the things that's been an unintentional side of our business for a long time. I'm just, I've always loved that side of things. and then when I combined that, like understanding of brand theory. And that love for marketing and understanding like human nature and being a good photographer, good people photographer from all those years of weddings, it was like, everything came together at one time. And people started inquiring because they recognize something before I did that, like, this was different. Like this girl was doing something different. Like nobody else was producing work like this in the industry. And that's why it's so important. It stands out because it's marketing minded, strategic brand photography, as opposed to a portrait session of somebody sitting at their desk and like clacking on their keyboard. And so it was an accident, like it was, it was other people recognizing in something in me and then me realizing like, Oh my gosh, the reason I love this and the reason I'm good at this is because this is a perfect coming together of all of my gifts.

Raymond Hatfield:

So recently I work with a company and they asked for a headshot of me at my computer podcasting, and I thought, okay, uh, I gotta do this.

Abby Grace:

Get out my tripod. You're

Raymond Hatfield:

right. I got the tripod. I got the app open so that I could, you know, remote, take the photo and whatnot. But, what is a better branding photo than just somebody at a computer?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. Well, so sometimes we have to have those literal pictures. Like I'm a photographer. Here I am holding my camera. I think that there, there are some like. Kind of cliche, but like also usable images of like, Hey, this is the about page on my website. Maybe it's not the first impression you've ever had of me, but like, here's the about page and you scroll down. It's got some fun facts about me or some more information about like how to work with me. And there's a picture of me like with a camera, there's nothing wrong with that. Like those are sometimes necessary. I actually have a client coming up a couple of months. We don't want to do any of the office imagery. And I was like, yeah, but you kind of need those. Cause we're doing a clean sweep for them. Like I'm coming in and taking a whole new suite of photographs and they're going to not use pretty much any of their old photographs. And so I was like, you kind of need those like hands on the keyboard, a hand on a mouse images that are like, not as exciting, but they're, they're almost like stock imagery. So like, those are helpful to have, but those should not be the only thing that we're shooting. Cause sometimes like, okay, podcasting. When you deliver a podcast, like what form does that take? It's digital. There's nothing physical there. It's an intangible concept. Right. And so how do you illustrate that with the tools that you use? Right. So I think that the, the photo of you sitting at the desk with the podcast, like that's an okay photo to take, but then like, how do we then take that to the next level to show the ideation process of like, what does it look like when you're mapping out the several seasons worth of podcasts or when you're sourced, do you have like a collection of mics that have, you know, you started with like a Yeti blue mic and then you graduated to the Shure mic and then you got whatever the fancy one is that you've got now. Like, is there any way to show more of the process than just the literal, here I am doing my job? Like if you were a watercolor artist. I wouldn't just show you sitting there with a watercolor paintbrush. I would also want to show you sketching and erasing and mixing your paint colors and maybe thumbing through your favorite coffee table book that served as a source of inspiration for you or sifting through prints that you sell. Like it's so much more than just the literal interpretation of like, how can we go beyond that? Because that's where things start to stand out. Literally anybody can take a picture of a watercolorist holding a paintbrush, but Would it occur to you to have her sit down and package prints that she's gonna sell or that she's gonna, you know, send off to the clients? Like, how can we go beyond that?

Raymond Hatfield:

So this is gonna sound like a strange question, but, who cares? Like, why? Right? Like, why are we going deeper into this? Yeah,

Abby Grace:

because there's so much noise on the social media landscape that, like, just having the cliche photo is not enough to stand out anymore. Is it enough for your about page? Sure. but the point of social media is you want to stop the scroll. You want to stop, you want to interrupt people in what they're doing, whether on like Facebook or Instagram, and you can do that with an eye catching visual that's like, that's different. I'm not like, what is, what are they trying to convey there? Like one of my clients, Ashlyn Carter, um, she's a copywriter for creatives. She's the copywriter for creatives. And she like, one of the things I love about working with her is that we, like what she does is very intangible. She's a copywriter. She works with words. She doesn't publish books. All of her stuff is digital. So how do we take this intangible concept of like copywriting for a sales page or outlining a new course or, being interviewed for a podcast? Cause that's something that she does a lot. How do we take that concept, that intangible concept and put tangible visuals to it so that people understand right away, Oh, this is what she does. copyrighted for creatives. What does that mean? But then you look at the photographs on her website and you're like, I immediately understand.

Raymond Hatfield:

Can you describe what some of those photos are for those who are jogging or in the car?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So like one of the most noteworthy and imitated photographs from Ashlyn's session was her sitting on the ground with like sticky notes and paper all over the wall, outlining a new course. And that was like three years ago. That photo has been done a lot since but like it was, that was the one that I think It was like, Oh, things have really clicked. Not just for me, but for my people. Cause they look at that and they're like that something's different about that. So sitting on the floor, outlining a new course or, like we had, so Ashlyn talks about she has a course copywriting for creatives and, Copywriting for creatives is like how to write your own copy for your website in a compelling way that iterates your brand message and like, No, your work doesn't speak for itself. Right. So that, so your words need to help tell the same story. And so one of the photographs I took was of Ashlyn dropping a piece of crumpled up paper into a trash can. So to a company like, Hey, write words that don't suck. Like come learn from me, copywriting for creatives. Um, trying to think of some of the other one, the last time I shot for her, we were trying to illustrate this concept of like wireframing out a website of like, not just a website, a sales page. So like, What is your state? What kind of copy does the sales page need to have on it? But then what's the order of magnitude? How should those be distributed? What size should they be? So I had her take a huge, you know, post it like 20 by 30 inch piece of paper and something that she would have otherwise done in a Google doc we did on a piece of paper on the wall.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. Okay. That's a great visual representation, you know, of what somebody does. And, I get how those photos kind of tie everything together, right? Give you a fuller picture of who somebody is and what they can do for somebody else. But getting to that point, is there a lot of preparation beforehand to figure out what photos you should even be taking?

Abby Grace:

Yes. There's so much research and that's one of the things that I love the most about. And this is one of the biggest hurdles that's for people. Cause typically what we see inside our course brand brand photography Academy is our target audience is. Wedding and portrait photographers who are either looking to diversify or they want an off ramp from their industry. And brand photography is like, if you're interested in brand photography, I can teach you how to do that really well. The reason I say all of that is not to be like brand photography Academy. But the reason I say that is because one of the biggest pieces that like mindset shift in our students is that you cannot just show up. And like, wait for the Pinspiration Ferry to, to arrive on set. Like it's the difference between weddings and family, not that there's not to say that there's not prep with weddings and family portraits, but with brand photography, there's a ton of research that goes on beforehand so that by the time you get to the shoot, you can tell me what you're going to shoot, where you're going to shoot it, why you're shooting it and how you're going to shoot it, all before you ever get there. Whereas on wedding days, I would show up and be like, do I roughly know like where we're going to shoot portraits? Yes. Do I know exactly which pictures I'm going to take? No, like I'll just, I'll do it when I get there with brand photography, because we're not just trying to capture a relationship we're trying to, to, it's the difference between like relational documentation and concept creation. So not just showing from being like, let's take some pictures as evidence of the fact that these two people fell in love and maybe some nuances about their relationship. This is, what am I trying to tell you about my, I mean, there's an active message I'm trying to communicate with this photograph. Yeah. What is that message? And how can we tell that message in a way that clicks with our audience? our brains process visuals 60, 000 times faster than they process text. And so are you saying within that frame, what it is that you're trying to say? Because if you just wait until you get on set and hope that things come together, you're going to find yourself coming up short. So I would say there's five layers. to any solid brand photograph. The first and foremost is your background, your backdrop. Second is your background details. So like artwork that you might have in the background or like desk chat keys, or like storytelling elements in the back of the photograph. And if you, if you imagine this, like layers one through five, starting at five, like the furthest away from the screen coming towards you. So five is the, so layer, I guess, layer one is the backdrop. Layer two is the background details, background accessories. Layer three is your outfits. What is your clothing telling your viewer about your business? Layer two is, foreground details. So like, what are you interacting with? You have a laptop with you. Are you writing in a notebook? Are you styling something? And then layer the, the last one is. Pose action and expression. And so a solid brand photograph is not just a matter of showing up and being like, well, hope we find something pretty, but it's a concentrated effort ahead of time to make sure all five of those layers are telling the story that your client needs to tell. Because typically the problem with brands, when we come, someone comes to me, It was like, I need brand photographs. They have a problem. Right. And I have a solution that I can offer them. And this is a basic question that any photographer should be able to answer. What problem are you solving with your products? what is your solution? What desire are you meeting? If you don't like the word problem, you can say desire with desiring meeting. But like the problem that my clients have. In some way, shape or form is that there's a disconnect between their intentions for the brand and their audience's perception of the brand. That's typically why people find me. When I repeat clients, the problem is I run out of photographs and I need more. But the initial, like what brought you to me is I'm having trouble connecting my intention with their perception. And so those, Five layers are opportunities for you to connect intention with perception by making sure you're telling the story that needs to be told and that there isn't any incongruencies like throughout those layers. So like if you're telling me, Oh, I'm a high end wedding photographer for, for New York city brides, but you shoot your session in a southern house and like you're wearing clothes from like H& M or forever 21, which like there's, and there's nothing wrong with that. But like, do high end brides in New York city? Are they shopping at H& M? Probably not the problem. Like does the, the very material that you put on your body, is that speaking to telling the same story? That you want to connect with the reinforcing the message that you're trying to communicate with the photograph. So this is a very long answer. Sorry, but like the question of is there prep? Yes. Because when we prep well, it means we storytell well, because we're not just relying on showing up and hoping that those elements come together on their own. This is the difference between weddings and branding is like, you can control those. You can tell your client, Hey, um, I know you want to shoot at your house. Just from the photos and videos that you sent me, I really don't think this is going to tell the story you wanted to tell. So let's look at renting an Airbnb or Verbo or like Peerspace or something that can really speak to the client that you're trying to reach. And so that that background layer of your house isn't actually detracting from the message you're trying to communicate with your photographs.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. Okay. So at some point, there is, and I really appreciate all of the, you know, tactical information there that we can use. So obviously the prep, and I think you just kind of breezed over this right there, which is like, Hey, I need photos and videos of your house so that we can make sure that this location works. So I mean, are you sending out, you're sending out questionnaires, your, yeah,

Abby Grace:

yeah. So we have multi there's like that the whole research process. Is like multi step, right? So it begins from the contact form that they send us. I mean, you can go to my website and look at, see what we ask on our contact form if you want to. But like, we're asking, they're like, Hey, what are your like top three goals in the next six, six to 12 months? Because what I shoot for them should directly support those goals. So if they tell me I'm launching a podcast, We're going to shoot for their podcast. If they tell me I'm launching a course or I'm adding associates or I'm expanding my business, I'm based in LA and I'm going to expand to New York. Great. Maybe we should shoot your brand photos in New York. Like those, like the, from the very beginning. That detail collection process begin. So we have our initial contact form. And then on the consult, I have like a whole consult roadmap that I take people through to ask me questions to ask them questions, to help further flesh out my understanding of their brand and how I can help, like what holes are we looking to fill? Where is that disconnect between your intention and their perception? And then from the console call, then we send them a client welcome guide that has some proactive information, but then I also send them a pre shoot questionnaire that kicks off my research process, then we have a strategy call. about a month before the shoot. And like, I'm doing a ton of research there of like, what is your existing collection of photographs look like? What kind of holes are we looking to fill on your website, your sales page, your funnels, your opt in pages. And then what is your market currently? Like, what are your competitors using? Great. Let's not do any of that. And I want to source our inspiration from somewhere else so that we're coming up with fresh content that again, helps you stand out. That pre shoot call is really just like, Hey, these are the storylines. And I'm thinking we should use as a jumping off point for your shoot to guide my shot list. Does that sound good with you? Great. Let's talk through logistics, make sure everybody's on board with like where we're going to be, what the timeline is going to be, and then I write a shot list. All the wedding photographers, please don't close your ears. It's not a dirty four letter word. Shot lists are like the most crucial tool that I have with me on a shoot day. Like it's more important than my camera, is the shot list because that shot list is my proactive creativity of what are they trying to say? What photos are going to help them say that? So then I'm not react risk. I'm not relying on. Inspiration to strike in the moment, I can be proactively creative so that when there's room and margin on the shoot day, creativity can breathe, but I'm not relying on that to show up.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was actually going to be my next question is, you know, obviously with this much planning, how much room do you have for, capturing what is just naturally there, what comes up these little happy accidents. Yeah. And I think, I think that does it perfectly. Yeah. I'm always interested in knowing, you know, we can prepare as much as we can beforehand and, during the shoot, we have a lot that we can control, but after the shoot, how do you judge whether it went well or it didn't go well?

Abby Grace:

That's a great question. I mean, typically my clients are like, Oh my gosh, these are amazing. Like I can't, I can't wait to post these everywhere. And like, typically a job well done looks like they, they put the photographs everywhere. There's like a clean sweep they do on their website, or sometimes my clients are working there in the midst of like a website relaunch. That's actually often the case. they're working on a new website. And so it takes a couple of months for the photographs to come out, but a job well done means those photos are everywhere. Every once in a while we have clients who don't. Put their photos to full use. And it does make me wonder, like, did I not do the job that they needed me to do? We send out a post shoot questionnaire after every session to ask, Hey, what did you like? What could have been improved? Do you have any extra feedback for me? I had a really humbling moment a couple of months ago where we had a client who I sent her her previews and she didn't respond for two days, which is normally like, it's not that big of a deal, but I was like, That's a little weird. Like I would have expected some, I would have just, just based on them. I would have expected to hear back from them. And when I did hear back from them, she was so kind. She was like, I don't think this is a reflection of you. I think that this is just my personal insecurities, but I hate the way I look in these photographs. And I was like, Oh my gosh, the worst case scenario. Like, right. You just spent thousands of dollars on this shoot and you hate your photographs and you're not going to use any of them. In that moment, I was like, okay, my number one goal is for you to be able to get maximum usage out of these images. This was a full day shoot. It was a lot of time off your calendar to prep for this. Like, I don't want, I'm willing to reshoot this if we need to. If, it came down to the fact that I did not do a good job for you, I don't think that's the issue here. So let's try a couple different things before we go to the like reshoot option. And it turns out my editing was off. Like the preset that I use for most of my clients, it wasn't a good fit for her skin tone. It made her look washed out and like remove the warmth from her skin. And once I fixed that, she was thrilled with the photographs, but like. That I haven't heard back from you in a couple of days after I sent your preview, something's up. I never want to let things die there because if something's not right, I want to make it right. How can I make you thrilled with these photographs so that you're happy, but that so that when you depart from me, that we can do so with you continuing to want to recommend me because like 75 percent of our clients are booked based on referral. So yeah, if it doesn't go well, the solution there is to find out why and what can I do to make that right? But, going back to your original question of the litmus test of how can you tell if it went well, did they put their photographs?

Raymond Hatfield:

Gotcha. And that makes sense. I mean, obviously if somebody is going to invest in something like this and if they don't post those photos, that, that can be a bit of a red flag, I missed a question I was thinking about before we get to the point of delivery and where they're on set. I know that, as somebody who has photographed many brides, couples, I'm sure that you got often, Oh, you know, we're worried about feeling uncomfortable in front of the camera. You know? Yeah. Do you get the same hesitation working with creative entrepreneurs?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. There's some of that. I would actually say most of my clients are like, I don't like being photographed, but I, it's a necessity. Like this is an investment that I'm making for my business in the same way. I don't like doing my taxes. I mean, I would hope that this would be more fun than doing your taxes. It always is more fun. But for some of my clients, it really is like, I'm doing this because I know I need to, not necessarily because I want to, or it's like, I love having my photo taken. I think it is so fun. I like can't wait to have brand photos taken again. but I know that that anxiety is real and it's more of like, I'm here to do my job, not necessarily. For you to document this, like joyful day. So I always tell my clients the exact same thing I told all my wedding clients the same because you know, often like you have grooms that would show up with like a similar attitude of like, I'm here because I know I need to be. And so you try to make it fun for them and you encourage them and you tell them how great they look, but I start every session off the same way. Like, just so you know, if you're nervous, totally normal. The first 15 minutes of any portrait session are always awkward. Like the whole, like Ricky Bobby, like, what do I do with my hands? So like, don't worry, I'm going to make you look great. it's not up to you to perform. I'm going to pose you in a way that's flattering. And I'm going to tell you exactly what to do. So the pressure's not on you. You just have to show up and follow direction. That's all you have to do. And that typically helps us. It's always. it is still nerve wracking for them for the first, like, 15 minutes. I actually had a client take a shot of tequila one time. Yeah, but I think just like being very affirmative, affirming helps go a long way in addition to that disclaimer. And I'll sometimes use myself as an example. Like I'm the same way. Like when we have family pictures taken, I, all my common sense goes out the window. I'm like, does this look natural? Um, and you know, if you can make them laugh, great. But that disclaimer by being like, yo, it's totally fine. Everyone. Cause there, I think the fear comes from like, I'm the only one who feels this way. No, you're not. Everyone feels that way and it's okay.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I use the, uh, I say, unless your last name is Kardashian, nobody feels really comfortable in front of a camera and it's totally normal. So just, you know, go ahead and enjoy it. I want to know when you think back to those earliest photos, right? Because as photographers who have been in it for a while, the goal obviously is to continue to get better. We learn something new. We put that into practice, we get better, process continues, continues, continues. When you. Go back and look at your earliest photos, right? as difficult as it may be sometimes, what are some of the elements that tell you that stand out as, wow, this is, this is an amateur photo. I've come a long way since then.

Abby Grace:

Because I was already a pretty, I was already a very good photographer by the time I started shooting brands. So I look at that work and I'm really like really what's matured is the, the content inside the frame, not the mechanics of how that photograph was made. So I'm not really looking at lighting. I already knew how to use lighting. I'm not looking at exposure. Cause I was already good at that. So it's really like, wow, my storytelling capacity has skyrocketed. Cause I look at the earliest photographs and I'm like, what did these mean? They don't mean anything. Like they don't like, there was a super cute photograph that I took of Natalie. During my first brand shoot, she was wearing this adorable pink blazer. Like, if I posted that photograph on Instagram today, it would still get a lot of likes. but she has her arms like over her body and she's holding her laptop down in front of her torso and she's looking down and it's cute. Right. What does it mean? What are we trying to say with that photograph? There was another photo from the same session. And I'm, and I will say all this, this is not a criticism of anyone other than me, because I was the one driving the train at this session. Natalie was like, I'm happy to show up and do whatever you want me to do. And like the, again, those photographs were beautiful and she got a lot of use out of them, but they weren't purposeful. So like, for example, one of the scenes that I shot was like a white watering can. with tulips in the back of it. That's not where tulips grow. That's not how watering cans work. like literally none of that is accurate. And Natalie's not a gardener. Like, why did we do that? So I think when I look back at the old photographs, it's the same criticism that I have for brand photographers who are, they're doing the smiling at a laptop thing. They are either taking a very literal interpretation of their client's job. I'm a watercolor artist. You can tell because here I am holding a watercolor brush versus a more nuanced, like insight into not just the product that they create, but the process. and the personality and like, well, how can we use these photographs to promote this, the client's business? so that lack of nuance, I think, and the obvious, like here I am, like literal interpretation of a job. But then also just the, like the default, I think that was like, I never realized how much of a default photographer I was relying on inspiration to occur in the moment. And if it didn't defaulting back to the safe photograph of my client smiling at a 15. 5 inch square of silver, or like my clients, like writing in a notebook or like holding a cute mug, like the ones that are safe, like very, very safe photography, which. Might be able to book you like a few sessions, but like, does it actually do anything to help your clients stand out? And furthermore, does it do anything to help you stand out as a brand photographer? I would argue that it doesn't put that in an audiogram.

Raymond Hatfield:

I just got to write down my time. No, it's always interesting to me because, I think brand photography is a world that I don't know anything about. And I think if, as I told you earlier, when I had to take that podcast photo, it's like, that was the photo that I took just me in front of a computer. To be

Abby Grace:

fair. That's what they asked you for. So like you were just giving the people what they asked for. That's

Raymond Hatfield:

true. That's true. That's true. But I could have elevated it. I could have made it better. Are there any maybe simple questions that we could ask ourselves if we're just getting into brand photography? I mean, you gave us the five layers of, you know, branding photo is there any questions that maybe we can ask ourselves to maybe get us more into that headspace of how do we add more context into this photo? That's more than just coffee mug or a Mac book.

Abby Grace:

Yeah. I mean, like, does this look real? Does this feel believable or not? I mean, I'm really glad you guys can't see my desk right now. Cause it's a freaking mess. Like they've got two hard drives here. I've got some vitamins, like a couple of candles, some medicine, a mouse, and also a pen cup. So when you go to a brand shoot and you're like, here's the client's perfectly clean desk with their Mac book and their pen, there's like one pen and one notebook and the rest of it's clean, I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't believe you. Unless you live in a restoration hardware catalog, like that's not what your actual desk looks like. So let's put a little bit, let's like, does this feel real or not? And I think this is one of those things. This is another headspace where like wedding and family photographers have to make a pivot. Mindset wise is weddings. Everything has to look perfect, right? Like how long do we spend photographing the bridal details, getting the perfect flat lay, fixing her dress so that it looks as picture perfect as possible, because that's what the wedding industry wants, that's not necessary. You're like, That's not necessarily what your branding clients want. These photographs, if we're supposed to, if we're photographing something that's meant to feel behind the scenes, make it look behind the scenes. We don't need perfect. We need purposeful. And so if you approach with this, attitude of perfection, what you're actually doing is distancing your client from their audience because you've just made their work set up, look unrelatable and unbelievable. And that doesn't serve them. So instead What could you add ,back into the scene? Like, okay, yeah, you've got, you've got your desk top. You've got your white desk. You've got your Mac book. Do they have a keyboard? Do they have a mouse? Is there a candle that they use? Don't just put a notebook on the desk, put a notebook and a book and some crumpled up like paper or like something to make it look like if you act, if you were actually shooting them at work, what would this desk actually look like?

Raymond Hatfield:

Again, this is one of those where it's like, I love talking to people like you, because it's like, you know, obviously what's going on and I, don't know anything about branding photography. This is a whole new world to me. And I feel like we could probably go on and I could dive deeper for the next, like two hours. But I really want to be mindful of your time.

Abby Grace:

And also your listeners time.

Raymond Hatfield:

And of course their time as well. Right. Before I let you go, is there anything maybe that I didn't ask you today that you want to make sure that listeners know about, brand photography and just getting the best that they can?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So I, one of the questions you always get is like, how do I start to market this with at the beginning? Like, how do I get new clients? Okay. So the best way, and this is another difference between weddings and branding that I love is like weddings. Like you could go and shoot a styled shoot, but like everyone kind of knows it's a styled shoot, right. Or you could go and second shoot for someone else, but maybe you can't use the photographs or the ones that you got, like, maybe it wasn't. Exactly what you wanted it to be with branding clients. You do not have to wait for clients to come to you before you start marketing. So we teach this to all of our students, the concept of beta clients. So you go out and you find a handful, one, two, three. It doesn't, there's no really cap on, on how many you can work with. I approached three beta clients and I ended up shooting for two of them. And it, the concept of the beta client is I'm going to ask you, can I shoot for you? Because I believe I can offer you some kind of value, right? Maybe you just added a new team member and you guys need some new working photos together, or, maybe all of your photographs on your website are like selfies or iPhone photos. And I think I can help you up level. Like what kind of value can you offer them? And then you take them through. The actual like proven process of you do the consult call, you have them sign the contract. Even if the sum is zero, you don't have to offer it for zero. You can do it for a discounted price if you want to. But the whole concept of the beta session is you hand pick one, two, three, whatever business owners that you want to photograph, because you think you can offer them something. And because you're offering your services either at a discounted price or for free, it gives you a lot more creative control to influence the shoot and. Take it in the direction that you want to go. Those photographs should still serve the business owner. So like they should be done with the business owner's goals in mind, their brand in mind. But like being a beta client, like when I took on beta clients, I did not charge them. And one of my beta clients is a makeup artist. She's a YouTuber. And so I approached her, explained, here's what I want to do. Here's what I'm offering you. Do not use the word free. Do not use the word free. Free means cheap. But I'd love to offer you this two, three hour session. And as a thank you for your time, I would love to provide you with the high resolution files for you to use on your, you know, whatever. And though, because she wasn't paying me, I felt free to say, hey, these photos that you sent me of your house, I don't think these are going to work. I would really love for us to look at renting a studio, is this one that you would become, maybe she found it, but it was a studio that charged like, I don't know, three, 500 an hour. But she wasn't paying me. And so I felt much more comfortable to say, I would like for you to rent something that looks like this. And she was more willing to do it, to make the most out of the investment. And by the way, like, you don't have to tell people that these are beta clients. Like you, you can just shoot them and then put them in your portfolio. But then the trick is not just shooting beta client sessions. It's then social selling. Those beta clients along the way. So like, you don't have to wait until you've photographed and delivered the shoot in order to start marketing yourself as a brand photographer, you could literally close this podcast episode, go book a beta session and start talking about it on social media, three minutes later, like talking about your process, talking about how excited you are for the shoot. You're in the beginning stages of planning. You don't have to tell people again, that it's a beta session. But like, talk about this client and how excited you are to serve them. Because what that begins to do is introduce you, introduce the idea of you as a brand photographer into the mind of your existing audience, which then like slowly builds your authority and demonstrates your expertise and begins to cultivate this brand message that like, Hey, I photograph brand sessions. Now I did that with our beta clients and we ended up booking one of my favorite dream clients before we ever officially launched our offer simply because I was talking about the process along the way.

Raymond Hatfield:

That felt like a masterclass right there. Like a step by step process of how to get started in this thing. Abby, I really appreciate you, sharing everything that you have today. I mean, it's clear that you're, very knowledgeable about brand photography. And I'm sure that there are going to be listeners right now who are thinking to themselves, how do I learn more about this? How do I go deeper into brand photography? So, before I let you go, can you share where listeners can find more about you and, more about branding photography online?

Abby Grace:

Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at Abby grace photo. And then if you're interested in learning more about what we offer for our brand photography students, you can go to abbygrace. co and there's all the details there on our course brand photography Academy. We also have our shop. If you want abbygracephotography. com, there's some resources like the, like we have our pre shoot questionnaire. We have, I think we have the consult roadmap there. smaller bite sized pieces to help you get started if you're like not quite sure this is exactly what you want to do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend, start a conversation, grow together. That is it for this week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon. Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.