The Beginner Photography Podcast

4 Steps Process for Photographers to Beat Imposter Syndrome with Sandra Coan

• Raymond Hatfield

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#462 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with family and newborn photographer Sandra Coan about the transformative power of combining business acuity with creative mastery, and how dedication to learning can lead to your breakthrough in photography.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Persistence Pays Off: Your early struggles can become valuable lessons. Each setback is a step toward your future success. 
  • Investing in Education Equates to Business Growth: Business and marketing knowledge are just as crucial as your art. Learning outside your field can provide unique insights. Commit to self-improvement for sustained profitability.
  • Mastering Lighting Defines Your Style: Technical skills in lighting can elevate your work. A signature style helps you stand out in the market. Expertise builds confidence and reduces imposter syndrome.
  • Community and Mentorship Propel You Forward: Supportive networks provide encouragement and advice. Sharing experiences enriches the whole photography community. Collaboration can often lead to unexpected opportunities.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  • Invest in Your Business Skills: Take an online course or workshop. Focus on improving your business acumen for your photography venture. This can include marketing, branding, or financial management. Read business-related books. Select books that are specific to photography businesses or service-based entrepreneurship to enhance your understanding of the industry.
  • Develop Your Lighting Techniques: Practice with different lighting. Experiment with both natural light and off-camera flashes to understand how lighting affects your shots. Seek feedback on lighting. Share your work with a photography group or a mentor to receive constructive criticism on your lighting choices and improve your skills.
  • Enhance Your Technical Knowledge: Enroll in photography technique classes. Choose courses that will close the creative gap, such as composition, color theory, or post-processing. Regular practice sessions. Dedicate time each week to practice new techniques, ensuring you become confident and proficient in your craft.
  • Build Confidence through Validation: Participate in portfolio reviews. Use these opportunities to gain professional feedback, which will help validate your skills and direct your learning efforts. Join a photography community and engage with a supportive group that can provide ongoing encouragement and critical insights into your work.

Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Sandra Coan:

So once you are in control of your own light, you're unstoppable. Your schedule's and dictated by the weather, your schedule isn't dictated by the time of year. So I could just build a schedule around what worked for me. And I developed my style. Like I didn't want flash photography or studio photography to look like flash photography or studio photography. I really wanted to create. That natural light look, and that really is the thing that changed everything.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we are chatting with family and newborn photographer, Sandra Cohn, about the transformative power of technical knowledge and having a disciplined focus on your unique vision to elevate. Your photography, but first the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by cloud spot. So your photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals set up a storefront in minutes and start earning money with every gallery. Grab your free forever account over at deliver photos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. Sandra is a return guest and she was on the podcast back in episode 124, where we talked all about branding for photographers. Now, in today's interview, Sandra breaks down the four steps to overcoming imposter syndrome as a photographer, and while Sandra talks a lot about business in today's conversation, it's. It's honestly just as relevant if your photography is just your hobby, you know, getting confident behind the camera is important if you want to create meaningful images. So in this conversation, you're going to learn how to enhance your technical knowledge, develop your lighting techniques, and how to build confidence through validation. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Sandra Cohn. When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Sandra Coan:

I'd been doing it for a while before that actually happened, so I was, I never thought I was gonna be a photographer. I didn't even know, being a photographer was like a real job that somebody could have or like, you know, a career. I was a kindergarten teacher. I was fresh outta graduate school, had a teaching certificate, had my first job teaching, and just couldn't make a living as a teacher. I actually qualified for food stamps my first year. And every single teacher I worked with at the school that I was at had a second job and most teachers were waiting tables or cocktailing or something like that after school and, teaching kindergarten is hard, like five year olds, man, it'll take you down. And so I just didn't have the energy for that. I was exhausted after school. And, around that same time, one of my best friends, Was pregnant with her first baby and it was the nineties. Right. So like any of the books had just put out that incredible photo of Debbie more pregnant. And we were all like, Ooh, and I was like, let's do a photo like that for you. And, cause I'd always done photography on the side just for fun. And so we did, and she loved it. And she was the one that was like, you know, maybe you should do this, like offer maternity photos on the side to make some extra money instead of getting a waitressing job or something like that. And I was like, Ooh, that's a great idea. So that's how I started. I like took that one picture and I turned it into a postcard and put it all over the place. And then people started to call. I did that for about. Three years, almost four years, just taking clients on the side, trying to figure it out kind of like my little side hustle before I, it started to dawn on me that, Oh, maybe this could be a job. And when I got to the point that I was making. The same money from photography that I was making as a teacher, which, you know, wasn't that hard. And it wasn't that big of a stretch, but when I got to that point, I was like, wait a second, I think I could actually make more doing this and have a lot more freedom, a lot more flexibility. So I quit my job and decided to give photography a go. But yeah, it was like three or four years into doing it before I was like, wait a second, this might be a job. I might be able to do this.

Raymond Hatfield:

Why? Why is that? You said that it didn't take long before you had to, you know, replace your teaching income. What was it that made you, I don't know, like wait so long before you could almost validate yourself that you could do it?

Sandra Coan:

Yeah. Right. I think I just, it didn't feel like a real job. I don't know. Like I kind of grew up with people are teachers or people are nurses. You know, I didn't know anyone in my life who was an artist or professional artist, or is it that was even possible? It seems like you had to have like a real job, you know, I don't know. It's just like, there was this like weird mental block around it. And I honestly, you know, if we're going there, when I started doing it full time and it helped that I was starting to meet other photographers and see that people could do it. I 100 percent believed it could be like a real job, real job until I was like 10 years in.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. I know. I know. That's like a mindset thing right there. There's this moment that like you weren't even thinking about photography. It was just kind of this thing that you did, but like you were a teacher, right? And then you took this maternity photo and not only you loved it so much, but your fellow teacher also loved it so much that she encouraged you to do this. And then. You did that. You're like, yes, I will go do that. But it still wasn't another 10 years. So like, where does that come from? Because I know so many people listening right now, new photographers, the demographics for this podcast skew towards, older photographer. It's not the typical podcast listener, you know, the 18 to 25 or whatever. It's like 28 to 35. It's those who are in a career. It's those who have a job. Yeah. But they also love photography. So that sounds to me kind of like where you were at. So that's exactly

Sandra Coan:

where I was. I was 27. I was like, I was your ideal listener. You know, and it's kind of, I think the springboard, maybe even for our conversation further, because I think a lot of my not believing that this could be a real job was rooted. It was a confidence thing. It was rooted. I think it a lot in my own imposter syndrome and my beliefs around what it meant to be a photographer. I always felt I felt like a fake. I felt like I was pretending like it was dress up. And I think a part of that was. I didn't ever study photography. I didn't go to photography school. You know, I had done everything right. Right. Like I graduated high school and I got my BA degree and then I went back to graduate school and I got a, you know, advanced degree and I did all the things that you're supposed to do to check the boxes to validate yourself in your career and be good at your career. And then suddenly I was doing work that I didn't have any validation for that. I hadn't gone to school for that. I had no formal training. And I think looking back that that was a lot of. Of those feelings of, I don't actually know what I'm doing. I'm just getting lucky and sooner or later, everybody's going to figure it out. And then I'm going to have to go back to getting a real job. So I think that that was a huge part of it for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

You were also doing like business this whole time, right? Like you did it with the intention of going into business, not necessarily as a hobby, but like with the intention of replacing your teaching income.

Sandra Coan:

Yeah, but I also didn't think of it as, so

Raymond Hatfield:

What does that look like? That must've been incredibly hard to be running a business, but not considered business, but also like you need the, you know, replace your income. But then you didn't feel like you were supposed to be in that role. So what was that

Sandra Coan:

like? It was really hard. It was really stressful. And, you know, I made a lot of mistakes, obviously, because of it. So I was literally just winging it. I was shocked every time somebody paid me, just like floored. I was way undercharging. That was part of a problem. You know, I say, Oh, I felt like a fraud. I didn't know what I was doing. You know, part of that was true. I didn't know what I was doing. When I first started, I would shoot on manual mode, you know, all the time. I think I have a natural eye. Like, I know what is pretty to me. I know it's what I like. And so when the circumstance when situations were perfect, I could create that somehow I would just pull it out of the ether. And so sometimes I would get those, but it certainly wasn't consistent. I live and work in Seattle, Washington. We don't often have. Perfect conditions. And so when the conditions weren't perfect, I really, really, really struggled. So I started this journey in 1999 and that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to start my little side hustle business in 2006. So I'd gotten married in the meantime, and in 2006, I had twins. And so then it got extra hard because suddenly I was also full time stay at home mom. to two babies at the same time, then in 2007, I was like, no, this is dumb. I'm going to quit. This isn't sustainable. I can't, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just winging it. So it was definitely, there was a lot of like, there was a lot of emotions in the beginning. They weren't always good ones. It was hard. It

Raymond Hatfield:

was a struggle. It's now been two. years since I shot my last wedding. And I got out because, during COVID, I realized I was like, not super sad that like weddings got canceled. And I was like, Oh, that, that tells me exactly what I need to know, I think. And I got out of it, but there was like this, sigh of like, now I don't have to, deal with the constantly finding clients. Now I don't have to deal with these pricing issues. Now I don't have to deal with the customer service and all these things to be going through all of that. And to have brand new babies at home and to like be making almost no money what turned it around for you? Because you're still doing this today. Like, how did you go from there to here?

Sandra Coan:

Yeah, desperation. You know how like a lot of people talk about Oh, I started my photography business because I just am so in love with photography. And I was just like, so I was like, no, I was freaking desperate. And, you know, in the very beginning, I needed to make money to supplement my teaching income. So there was that level of desperation. For her starting and then I got to that point where I was like, this sucks, I'm just going to quit. I can't do this anymore. The thing that stopped me from quitting was. The alternative, because my family, we needed money, we needed a second income. So I either was going to make this photography thing actually work, or I was going to have to quit and get that real job, and what, and I knew that that real job would entail a schedule that was set for me, you know, me leaving my kids every day. And I didn't want that either. You know, at that point I had these two babies that I kind of really wanted to hang out with, you know, I just really wanted to have that experience. And so that's when it changed. So I was like, okay, Sandra Cohn. If you're going to do this, if this is going to be a real job that we need to figure it out. And so that means no more winging it, no more feeling like you don't know what you're doing, none of it. And so I started at that point, the first thing I did was started studying business and. I went outside the photography industry to do it. Like I didn't want to learn from somebody about how to price an eight by 10 or how to run an in person sales session or whatever. Like I wanted business foundations. I wanted to learn how to build a brand. I wanted to learn how to market myself. I wanted to learn how to write sales copy, you know, like I went there. So I studied, studied, studied. I read books. I took online classes and I was doing this all in between. So I started with that and it started to work like, that's the amazing thing. Like nobody is born knowing how to market your business, but once you like, learn it and make, you figure it out, it's like, oh, okay. It's actually, there's a formula to it and you do it and it works. And so I was like, okay, then I, you know, once I started getting consistent clients in and I was really building out this brand, then I worked on my pricing and started getting my pricing to where I was profitable. And then I tackled lighting because that was my big thing is like living and working in Seattle. I moved into a studio about that same time. Cause I had been working in clients homes or in my own home. And I was like, that's not sustainable anymore with twins. I want to have a regular schedule. I want people to come to me and all that kind of stuff. So I learned lighting. And that really is the thing that changed everything. Because once you are in control of your own light, you're unstoppable. You're not, you know, your schedule isn't dictated by the weather, your schedule isn't dictated by the time of year, or, You know, what's going on outside. So I could just build a schedule around what worked for me. And, I learned lighting in 2011. I spent the year doing that. I just really nailing it down and I developed my style. Like, cause I didn't want. flash photography or studio photography to look like flash photography or studio photography. I really wanted to create that natural light look, which was hard to find information on that at the time. So I kind of made it up this like system that worked for me and that was really when it took off. 2011 I learned that 2012 was my first six figure year. Ever. And, you know, the combination of the business and the lighting, it just started to grow and it's grown ever since. And here we are today. The rest is history.

Raymond Hatfield:

Here we are today. The rest is history for, everybody else to learn. Right? Like that's what's so exciting. I wonder to myself, how many great photographers have given up because maybe they weren't able to figure it out, you know? Yeah. Oh my

Sandra Coan:

God. So many.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. Yeah. So many. And like we're unable now to like learn from them because they weren't able to reach a level that they had wanted. So for you to have done that and then got here and now you're sharing your information with everybody is incredible. You help keep this podcast going and help all the listeners as well. So I thank you for that. I'm glad that it all worked out, but I want to go back to, to the struggle. So we're here today, but let's mentally go back to that struggle, right? Yes. Deep breaths. Yeah, we don't want to go back to that place, but we're going to right now. The struggle to me sounds like it was just for the most part, a lack of knowledge, right? But when we get into photography, oftentimes we don't know what we don't know. So it's hard to know that we have a lack of knowledge because that's just inherently how it works, right? We're not, as you said, we're not going to get a degree. in most cases, people aren't going to photography school. We have to kind of figure these things out on our own. So, um, tell me, like, kind of at its worst, where was the business at and where were you at in this time?

Sandra Coan:

The worst? I got to probably my lowest when I didn't have the confidence to charge what I needed to charge. So I was, really, really undercharged. I was exhausted because I had two babies and I had worked on the business part of it to the point where I was getting clients. But again, I wasn't profitable. I didn't understand that. And I was so scared to raise my prices because I was like, I'm going to lose clients, but then I wasn't. But I remember this one weekend where I was doing like five shoots a day and. I was traveling all over the place in between those. So I'd go to a park for one, go to the studio for one, go to somebody's home for one, like all over the place. And I was just like physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted. And that was very much a low point for me. And I think, yeah, so it's see how, like I say, like my journey is a journey is the story of desperation because I was like, No, I can't do that anymore. People need to come to me and I need to, you know, that's the lighting piece, when that started to click.

Raymond Hatfield:

And it sounds to me like you have very much the same mindset of a real job that the only way that you can make more money is to do more shoots. Yes. But it wasn't until you figured out, it sounds to me, that once you figured out a way around that, maybe through business, was there some sort of foundational business piece that you learned that taught you maybe more shoots does not necessarily equal more money, that there's other ways to make more money that made it easier for you?

Sandra Coan:

Yes and no. I mean, I kind of knew that, right? Like you have to, make sure you're profitable charging, you know, like I knew that in theory. For me, it really was a confidence issue. And I actually see this a lot now in the photographers that I mentor because it's scary to raise your prices. And especially when you're already suffering with confidence with imposter syndrome, there's this like voice in your head. That's like, if you raise your prices, you're going to have a zero people and then where will you be? And so it's one thing to know something in theory, and it's another thing to do it in practice. For me, I guess I had to wait until I was just like, I couldn't. Do it the way I was doing it anymore to take that leap. I didn't have, I also didn't have any mentors or community or anything to go. Like, I think back now, especially as an educator in the space and then like, Oh, if only I had somebody to hold my hand and tell me it was going to be okay and, trust the process and, show me the formulas. I think things could have been a lot different. I wasted a lot of years on doing things that weren't serving me because I was too scared to make the changes that I needed to make. I think that's super common. Don't you? I mean. 100%.

Raymond Hatfield:

In fact, personally in my own life, like I resonate with that. There's been so many times where I've wanted to either go further or make a change that would essentially grow the business, but it is scary. It's scary when you have to, as you said, raise your prices because you don't know if people aren't going to, you know. It's scary when you think about hiring help because now somebody else is relying on the income that you're making. And, as you know, as a freelancer, sometimes, there's good months and there's bad months. That's a difficult thing. So it's definitely a challenge. But at the same time, I think we know that like being alone, being the solopreneur, like probably isn't the best for us. It's really good to have somebody who we can bounce ideas off of and not. Yeah. Not if we have to physically be alone. That's one thing. But like to mentally be alone is an entirely different thing. And that's, you know, why I love the idea of having a community have somebody who you can, bounce ideas off of. So what did that look like for you? Yeah, I didn't. I

Sandra Coan:

didn't

Raymond Hatfield:

know that.

Sandra Coan:

That's why it was such a hot mess. I do think it's essential for new photographers and you know, back to your point, like, so much of what we have to do is scary. I tell the photographers I mentor all the time. I say being in business for yourself is like being in therapy. It forces you to rub up against things that make you uncomfortable to do things that are triggering or scary. Like you're constantly. But in this position of having to really challenge yourself and, you can do that on your own and have success at some point. I mean, I did it. It took me 10 years or whatever, you know, um, or, that's where having that sense of community is, so valuable though, because then when you're, doing that when you're in those scary moments, at least you have support and somebody there to hold your hand. And I think that in some ways, it's easier for photographers to find that now. Maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but you know, when I was doing all of this, I'm about to age myself, but we didn't have Facebook. We didn't have Instagram. We didn't have the ease of, being connected to a larger group, like unless you knew a group of local photographers or people in your community that you could lean on, you really didn't have opportunity to have that. So I think it was harder in some ways easier because the, of course the dark side of having social media and all of that is this whole comparison thing that we get into and. That can also be really challenging, but from a community standpoint, I think it's, it can be really helpful if you're in the right communities.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, let's go ahead and talk about that other aspect of comparing ourselves, because how can we not today, you know, it's like, if you want to share your photos online, the first place you're going to do it is social media. If you do that, you're going to see 10, 000 other photographers in the first minute of you scrolling, and you can't help but naturally just kind of compare yourself to them. So, what do you think is the fix for that? Do we avoid it completely, or do we use it to learn where we're actually at in our photography

Sandra Coan:

journey? I advise people to put on emotional blinders. You know, when you see like horses in like a city, like here in New York, whatever they're doing, like horse drawn carriages, and they always have the blinders on the horse and they do that so that the horses don't get spooked by all the things that are going on around him. I think we need to do that for ourselves when we get onto social media, you know, like put on blinders so you can only see what you need to see, but you don't get spooked by all the other stuff going on around you because it's, really easy to, it's really easy to get distracted. And it's hard for you emotionally, but it'll also destroy your business. I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see new photographers make in business is getting caught up in doing what they think they should do. I should be doing this and I should be doing that. And so and so is doing this and so and so is doing that. And I should do that too. And when you do that, it, It takes you off track, I feel like we are visual artists, which means that we have a certain way of seeing the world and capturing the world that only we can do right. Nobody else can see and capture the way that you do. Like, this is your eyes and your expression. And so if you can focus on that and putting your blinders and you focus on that, that is how you start really building your brand, figuring out your signature style, getting really comfortable in you and what you do. And if you don't have those blinders on, that's really hard to do. You can get knocked off course, chasing what you think you should do, chasing the trends, looking around at what other people are doing. And it's bad for your soul. But like I said, it's really bad for your business to do that too.

Raymond Hatfield:

That makes sense from a theoretical standpoint. Right? Yeah, I know. Focus on your journey. Just do that. Eyes on your own

Sandra Coan:

paper.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, exactly. We've been taught that for years. But from a practical standpoint, what does that look like? Does that mean less social media? Does that mean not, you know, checking, Flickr or whatever? Like, did that look like for you? How did you put on those emotional blinders to focus on your own path and not pay attention to the other photographers?

Sandra Coan:

Well, in some ways it was easier for me because I didn't have social media when I was doing that. So I really, it was easy for me just to, Focus. So when I was in this phase, every, it was all about people's websites and we had like Google reader where you could like catalog and read people's blogs and all this stuff. And so I just turned it off and I just decided I wasn't going to look at other people's work and I was just going to focus on my work. And this was happening for me when I was developing my lighting style and, learning that. And so it really helped me hone my signature look. And I have a very strong signature look and a strong brand, I think, because of that, it is a level of discipline. If you're on Instagram and you're on Instagram to promote your business, get on Instagram, focus on your business, you know, look at your posts, what images are you going to share? How are you talking to your clients online? You know, I teach, um, a model marketing approach. That's very client centered. So are you creating client centered marketing? Are you engaging with your clients? Are you talking to them? If that can be a hundred percent of your focus when you're online and on social media, you're going to be a lot better off. If your focus is, I'm going to get in here. I'm going to throw up the picture. I'm going to write like. Hashtag baby feet, hashtag, isn't this cute or whatever. And then just go and spend the next two hours looking at other people's work. You're going to get yourself into some trouble. So yeah, there's a level of discipline to it. You just have to make the choice. I'm putting on my blinders like the city horse. And I'm just going to focus on me, my clients, what I do, my work. And stay in that space. It's hard because we were just saying, well, you also need community, right? So how do you balance putting on the blinders with maintaining a community? And I think that that's where getting into a curated community is really helpful. So I have communities that I run for people in my program. We have, zero gatekeeping rules. Everybody knows that I'm telling them not to fall into the should trap to look. So we're not in those communities to look at other people's work or compare ourselves or try to be like them. We're in those communities to ask questions, to get support, to say things like, Oh, I'm feeling like a loser today or whatever, like this other person's doing this work and it's so beautiful. It's making me feel bad about myself. Like to have those conversations, those honest conversations without getting knocked off course. Does that make sense? It's hard. I mean, I wish I could say like, Oh, it's super easy. You just don't do this. And then you just do this and then you're going to be fine. But it's not, it's

Raymond Hatfield:

not, it's not. One thing I have, learned from also trying to help photographers is that like, there is no one size fits all solution, no, no. And it's hard because it's like some people are, I had a conversation the other day with a photographer who, had decided I'm not going to do any more social media, like it's just not where my brain works. And I was like, yes, that's exactly how I feel. And he had said, like he had done a mentorship with another photographer who's just naturally very good at social media where it doesn't take up much of their brain space. They just post something and then they're good to go. And it connects with, their ideal audience. And he's like, because I can't do that, I don't. Like, it's so hard for me to focus on that. And that, again, I think shows there's more than one way to do literally anything. There's more than a thousand ways to become a photographer. And I think it's our job to figure out, well, how can we help serve other photographers? Oh, yeah. And help them figure out, you know, You know, whether, how they can get helped, how, they can get to where they want to be, because again, I think that that is also a huge element, not only having to learn the camera, the tools, the light, the theory, all of the technical stuff, but also learning where do you want to go. Is this what it is that you want to do? You know, I thought the weddings was what I wanted to do and it was not, so having to do all this kind of in the beginning is a, difficult thing. So that's why it's

Sandra Coan:

like being in therapy. It's not easy. And you're going to learn so much about yourself along the way. There is no way I would be the person that I am now if I hadn't been on this journey of entrepreneurship, because it just, It tries you and it tests you and you have to learn this level of trust in yourself. Like it is a crazy journey. It is not for the faint of heart. Yes. To your point though, I just real quick, like your point about social media too. It's also not the only way, like you were saying, like there's a million different ways to run a business and be successful in a business. And look at your numbers, ask your clients how they found you. My photography clients. I know this because I just ran these numbers because we were just having this conversation in my mentoring group. And I think it was like 74 percent of my contracts where I ask, how did you hear about me? Found me on Google. So they're not even finding me on social media. Oh, wow. So, it makes more sense for my photography studio that I focus on blogging, on SEO, on making sure my website's up, which I do. I don't really even have social media for my photography studio and my clients come from the internet. So maybe social media isn't the answer, like run the numbers for you. If it's not what you're naturally good at, and you're not seeing an ROI on that effort. Then don't do it. There's a lot of people were running very healthy businesses before we had Instagram.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. Exactly. So then, let me ask you this question, cause I've been thinking about this lately. Not that it matters so that we can do anything with it, but it's always fun to kind of think about these things. If you could do it all over again, right. If you could do it the hardest way, humanly possible, like you did, right? Like 10 years, just trudging through it before you found the level of success that you were hoping for. Or if you could start all over and say apprentice under another photographer, do you think that you would have got to where you are today faster? Or it just would have been a different level of success? I

Sandra Coan:

think it would have been a different journey, obviously, but I definitely think it would have been faster 100%. Yeah, there is no anything you want to do. Somebody else has done it before. And there's no for me. Anyway, I feel like It's like deciding to climb up the stairs on my knees because I'm earning it or something. You know, I felt like I had to learn everything myself. I just discover everything myself. I had to, otherwise I was like copying or it wasn't being an integrity or I was cheating in some way or whatever. And it's just what a waste of time, like find somebody that you align with, find somebody who is doing what you want to do. Who's at a level of success that you want and ask for help. And, if they're wanting to help, then awesome. Take advantage of it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, it's so funny. I, grew up often thinking to myself, like, you know, hearing the stories from my grandparents, like back in my day, that, uh, I sometimes think about the hard challenges that I go through, in those moments where I realize, like, man, this is way harder than I thought that it was. I often think to myself, this is that moment that in the future, my grandkids, I'm going to say, back in my day, I had to do it like this, you know? And, it almost makes it more of a challenge, right? It like, it almost gives you that motivation to keep going rather than giving up. I don't know where I was going with that, but, I'm just trying to think of myself as an old man and it was a very different thing. So, uh,

Sandra Coan:

I mean, what would you do? Like if you could do it all over again and you choose to do it by yourself and figuring it out on your own in isolation by yourself, or find a mentor that you align with and work with them, what would you do?

Raymond Hatfield:

I would, I would definitely seek help. That's always been one of my hard things, the hardest things. I don't know why, but it always felt like, not that it was a weakness, not that asking for help is a weakness, but like asking for help as a sign that like, you just don't know anything. Yeah. I don't know. It's a, it's

Sandra Coan:

weird. Right. And I feel like it's like something that like is, So true among photographers, people don't want to ask for help. They don't want to invest in themselves to get help. I swear to God, people will drop so much money buying a lens after lens after lens. How many damn lenses do you have in your cover that you never use? Okay. I know you're like, but when it comes to like investing in yourself and your education and working with a mentor and doing some of that, people just really have a hard time with it.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's

Sandra Coan:

so

Raymond Hatfield:

funny. Yeah, well, I think that that's changing at least from everything that I've seen, you know, as far as, especially with the pandemic, the pandemic really helped, people to understand the importance and the value of, that education online can be a very viable thing and it can be helpful and that we don't need to be in the same town as somebody else for help, you know, like over the past, uh, I'm totally going to butcher this like 20 years ago, like the amount of people who are meeting online was like 3 percent and everybody's main complaint was that like, that's weird to meet people on the internet, but

Sandra Coan:

now,

Raymond Hatfield:

right now it's, the exact opposite. And now the main complaint against meeting somebody in your own town is there's so many people on earth. How could like, you're guaranteed to find better results on the internet. And I feel like, with. Learning photography. It's like if you're just going to stick to your own town, your options are like a community college and maybe like a local photography club, but because there's 1000 different ways to learn photography, that might not be the right way for you. You know, it might not fit for your schedule. And, learning online has been helpful to so many people, but I feel like we're getting a bit off track. I'm not trying to sell people on on learning online. They understand. I don't either, but

Sandra Coan:

I do think it. Like it is interesting though. And cause I know like that was a block that I had to, when you were like, Oh, I felt like I had to choose the hard way. I had a block where it was like, it made sense for me to invest in gear or an equipment, but like investing like myself or taking a class or getting a mentor. I don't know. I had a block around it. Like I just did everything the hard way. Right. Right. The hardest way humanly possible,

Raymond Hatfield:

of

Sandra Coan:

course.

Raymond Hatfield:

I know.

Sandra Coan:

Between A and B, which looks the most difficult. I'm going that way.

Raymond Hatfield:

Pick the path where Everest is right in, right in the middle of it. No, you got to go right over it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. So, then let's talk about kind of the solution, right? Because, we feel this imposter syndrome. We feel this, I don't belong here. And what we've learned is, that could be because we didn't have any formal education. We tried to learn this on our own. We also don't know what we don't know. So we didn't learn the right thing. So just find a place where we can learn the technical side of photography. The other thing is that there's a, it's very lonely, right? And then you can start to second guess yourself. You don't have a place to get all the answers. We understood what that looked like. It looked like burnout for you, you know, having the kids not making enough money. That was very difficult. And now, so if we kind of take all those things and do the opposite of them, we're going to start to find success. So where do we start? Like what does that start to look like? How do we know that we're taking the right courses? Cause there's so many things to learn. What is the solution for lack of a better question? What is the solution to getting over imposter syndrome?

Sandra Coan:

Well, for me personally, I think it's going to be different for everybody, but like I had crippling imposter syndrome. It was bad. And for me, that didn't start to shake until I did start to know the technical stuff, like to know the things to know that I knew what I needed to know when I was good at it. Does that make sense? And again, that took a very long time, because as we established, I took the hard way and I was going to teach myself and do all those good things. But I really do think that there's something to it, you know, just imagine. What it feels like when you are at, you're being paid either at a wedding or a portrait session or whatever you're being paid to do a job to create a certain look that you, your client, you sold your clients that they want and you walk into a situation, you walk into the room and it's terrible lighting or really dark, or you just have a crap day or, the schedule's off and you were supposed to do portraits out at 2 when you had plenty of light, but now you're doing them at 6 and you're losing it like, you know, that feeling of just like, Oh, how am I going to make this work in that stress now? Imagine the feeling of that same situation, but you know exactly what you're going to do. You're like, Oh, this isn't a problem. I know I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I know I have this. I know I have the skills. I can create that look regardless of the situation. It changes how it just, it changes the stress, right? Like you can feel like the stress falling off of you, but it also changes how you feel about yourself. I always tell people like really confidence really is this bridge in our careers and it's the bridge from dreaming and doing from wanting and having it's the bridge that really connects that and the only way you get to create that bridge of confidence is by learning. The things having the foundations and then knowing that, you know, the things, so like, you know, how to handle a bad lighting situation when you walk in, there's natural light great. You can do that, but if there's not, you can do that too. It's not a big deal. You know, confidently how you're going to pose people, what look you're going for, how to direct people from session to session and from look to look in a moment, you know that there's that confidence. And so learning the technical skills, learning. That so you get that level of confidence, I think is step one. And then step two, I think is validation. And you tell me, you can chime in, like, but you think about this, but you know, when you have the confidence, but to also, there's something to be said for having people you respect, look at your work and be like, no, dang, you are good. This is amazing. You've got this. Wow. You know, I think validation is a huge piece of getting over that, that those feelings of imposter syndrome, at least it was for me. And, there's something to be said for kind of having that seal of approval, like, yeah, you've done this, you're really good at it. Well done. That's what I think. That's the formula.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to add the second part or a third, third part to that. And I think on top of the validation is still like that. if photography is therapy, like you don't go to one session and then you're done, right? Yes. Oh, such a good point. Yeah. Forever. And, I could get a subscription to masterclass and learn how to be president. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to, you know, become a president and like be the best, you still need ongoing support. So on top of gaining the confidence and getting the validation. I think it's also continuing to have, ongoing support, having a place where you can continue to ask those questions when, you know, inevitably something's going to come up. Oh, yeah, that's a great, great point. Yeah. And I gotta say, that reminds me of something that you have going on. Like you have built what I think, sounds to be like one of the best, most comprehensive programs for photographers. So tell me more about this. Like how, how is this going to help photographers who are struggling right now?

Sandra Coan:

Well, thank you. All this stuff that we've been talking about is stuff that I've noticed for years and years and years. In myself, in my community, in my education community, you know, people really struggling, even with the best of intentions, right? They're taking the classes. They're trying to learn things. They're still struggling. They're still struggling. It's still not getting it. I decided that I wanted to create a program for photographers that really did help them on this path to getting over imposter syndrome, to help them build that confidence bridge. And that in order to do that, I needed to have a program that was comprehensive. That, that taught them everything, because like we were saying, there's so much that you just don't know what you don't know. There's so much to that in this business. So that's what I did. I created a program. It's the Sandra Cohn certification program where I teach literally everything A to Z. That like the keys to the kingdom, everything that I've done and learned in my own business, lighting, posing, processing, portfolio curation, website design, what exactly you have to have on your website, how you build a brand, how you market yourself in a competitive industry, like all the things teaching that. And then in addition to just teaching the information. I've also built in a one on one mentoring part of that program and group coaching. So as you work through the stuff, you get on calls with me. We look at your portfolio together. I give you feedback. I give you critique. I give you mentoring, as you're learning it. We have coaching calls with the whole group where we get on and you learn from other people and you hear their struggle, that community piece that we were talking about. So you have a group to lean on a group to learn from and all of that. And then at the end of the program, once you've completed everything, then you have the opportunity to apply for certification and with certification, we evaluate your portfolio, your work, you're graded on a rubric that you get caught, you know, um, access to at the very beginning. And once you pass certification, you know, that your work is at a professional level, you know, you know, the things, you know, you've got the full picture, but then you also get added to my online directory and my referral network so I can refer people to you and other people in the group can refer people to you. And we're just building this little community of, awesome photographers and it's really fun and it's a really exciting and yeah, it is super concert comprehensive. I don't think to my knowledge, I don't think there's anything else like it in the industry. Yet.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yet. Yeah. You're going to be the trendsetter because, uh, one thing everybody's done with is, having to purchase so many different things and so many subscriptions and so many different logins to have it all in one place. Sounds incredible.

Sandra Coan:

A to Z. And, you know, if I may, one of the reasons why I got started on this idea is for that very reason, I was seeing people in my own community. You know, I'm actually trained certified teacher, right? Like I went to teacher school to be a teacher and I have a master's degree and stuff. So I, I know I'm a good teacher, but I was seeing people in my own community, take all my classes, read my book. Come to see me, you know, when I'm speaking on stage and all this stuff. And I felt like they were stuck in this hamster wheel because even though they were working super hard and they were taking the classes, they were doing what they were supposed to do. They were never getting beyond this feeling of, I need to learn more. I'm not ready. I'm not good enough. I need to do more. And so when you're taking these one off classes, it's almost like you just keep throwing all this money with the best of intention for growing, but you're not moving beyond that. And I was like, what is going on? And that's kind of where I started with the certification. I was like, what is going on is you don't know what you don't know. And so when you're in the position to diagnose what your problem is, and then choose courses to help fix that problem, and then take the course, but never get feedback, never get critique, never get mentoring. You're going to see. So you stay stuck because chances are, you're probably not taking the right course. You may not be identifying the right problem and you never know if you're ready or if you're good enough because nobody's giving you that feedback. So, for example, you're not booking clients. Oh, I can't find clients. I'm only ever booking family and friends. I need to get real clients. I must have a marketing problem, right? So you take marketing class after marketing class after marketing class. But maybe. The problem is actually your portfolio. Maybe what you're presenting is off. Maybe your images aren't strong enough. Maybe you have a lighting problem. Maybe you have a problem with consistency in your editing. And if you don't know that, if nobody points that out to you, you're going to continue to throw money at marketing classes. Or attorney, and you're never going to see a result. And that's something that I wanted to help people overcome. And that's why we literally teach everything in the certification program. So there's just no question. If you think you have a marketing problem, there's marketing stuff. In there that you're going to learn, but there's also me and my team being able to look at your portfolio and say, no friends, you don't have a marketing problem. You have a lighting problem. So let's fix that first and get your portfolio where it needs to be. So then the marketing will work. And that's the difference.

Raymond Hatfield:

Like I said, I mean, this sounds incredibly comprehensive and it sounds like a wonderful solution for so many photographers. So, with you and your years of experience of putting this together, I know it's going to be a hit. So. If people are interested, I'm sure that there's going to be people interested listening right now. Where can they go to learn more?

Sandra Coan:

We have a wait list going right now. We open applications three times a year and easiest place to go is to my Instagram. Which is just Sandra Cohn, C O A N, and you can either send us a DM and say, Hey, I would love some information on how to get on the wait list. We'll send that to you. We also have the link in my profile that if you click that, it has all the things that you need to know as far as more information on the program, how to get on the wait list, and that's probably the easiest way to find it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend, start a conversation, grow together. That is it for this week. Remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Sandra Coan:

Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.