The Beginner Photography Podcast

Inside the Creative Process of Making Photo Series with Dina Goldstein

• Raymond Hatfield

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#583 Dina Goldstein is an acclaimed photographer and visual artist known for her provocative, narrative-driven imagery and a career spanning over 30 years. Dina shares her unconventional journey into photography—from her early fascination with how she saw the world, to a pivotal trip in her 20s that inspired her to take her first photography course. She discusses her drive for continual learning, willingness to make mistakes, and evolving artistic process.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

  1. Finding Your Path in Photography - Dina shares how she did not set out to become a photographer, but her distinct way of seeing the world and a curiosity about visual storytelling led her to the camera. She discusses her transition from aspiring actor to dedicated photographer, and encourages beginners to “just do it”—advocating for action and experimentation over perfection from the start.
  2. Embracing Mistakes and Gaining Technical Mastery - Dina recounts real-life stories from her early career, emphasizing how setbacks and mistakes—like disappointing film results or technical failures on major shoots—became opportunities for growth. She underscores the importance of preparation, learning the fundamentals (especially light), and practicing relentlessly before critical assignments. Her approach includes making and learning from mistakes, remaining humble, and valuing ongoing practice.
  3. Editorial vs. Artistic Photography - The episode dives into the distinctions between editorial work (client-driven, often for magazines or businesses) versus personal art projects (driven by the artist’s own vision). Dina explains the expectations, pressures, and creative compromises involved in each. She provides examples from her own career, contrasting the demands of magazine portraits with the fully conceptualized, collaborative productions required for series like Fallen Princesses and The Ten Commandments.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

  • Editorial Photography: Photography commissioned for publications, shaped by specific requirements from art directors or clients, as opposed to personal, self-driven art pieces.
  • Artistic Eye: The innate or cultivated ability to see images, light, and composition in unique ways. Essential for transcending mere technical competence and creating meaningful work.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

  1. How do your personal experiences and worldview shape the themes you explore in your photography?
  2. When faced with setbacks or mistakes, what strategies can help you learn and grow rather than lose confidence?
  3. What distinguishes a meaningful personal project from a commercial or editorial assignment for you?

RESOURCES:
Visit Dina Goldstein's Website - https://dinagoldstein.com/
Follow Dina Goldstein  on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dinagoldstein/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Dina Goldstein:

I think like always be open, always experiment and be willing to make mistakes and be willing to just jump in and do it. Of course people have fear, fear of failure, fear of not doing the best work you can, but you have to fight that fear. You have to push through it. And on the other side, it could be good, it could be bad. You never know, but at least you did it. Otherwise you really get stalled and that's what everything in life, I think not only photography, it's just a life lesson too.

Hey, photo friends Raymond here, and welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast, where every Tuesday I drop a brand new episode to help you capture better photos by learning from the world's most creative photographers. And here on Thursdays, I share a rewind episode, a past conversation handpicked because it is just as valuable today as when it was first released. So whether you're brand new or you're revisiting with fresh years, this one is packed with timeless photo wisdom to help you grow behind the lens. And in today's rewind episode, we are talking with fine art photographer Dana Goldstein, about using a camera to hold up a mirror to society. But first, the Beginner Photography Podcast is brought to you by Cloud Spot. With Cloud Spot, you can sell your photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals. You can set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every gallery you send. So grab your free account over@deliverphotos.com and only upgrade when you are ready. Today's guest, Dina Goldstein, has really created an interesting body of work. She creates images that, well, you can't help but look at, images that are surreal, but not to the point of fantasy. Like they're believable yet undeniably it's a narrative, but at their core, her images make you think, they think about the decisions that, you make in your own life. They make you think about the things that we look past in society, and they make you think about what actions you can take to be the change that you want to see in the world. And as a photographer, what more could you want out of the images that you create? And today, that's exactly what she's gonna share with you. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's rewind interview.

Raymond Hatfield:

Dina, after 30 years of, being in the photography world, you've created quite a name for yourself as a photographer. You've produced, both inspirational images and also controversial images. I want to know that from your earliest days, did you know, like, like when you were a child, did you know that photography was going to be something that was going to play a big role in your life? Or is this something that you discovered along the way?

Dina Goldstein:

Well, I definitely didn't know when I was a child. but I did know that I saw things differently. And, like for instance, I saw colors more than my friends, I don't have an explanation for it, but I'd always be in wonder of, of any of things, or maybe I saw things that other people didn't see. And, when my friends came over, I turn on different lights for some reason. Now that I think back at it, to make the place look nice. So I turn on that light and that light and that light. So, just little things that I did, or maybe the way that I saw the world. That's the only connection that I have to it. I really, I wanted to be an actor and I was a theater brat and, I thought that I was going to end up doing that. But, when I was about 20, I ended up going to Dahab, which is, a little, hippie resort in the Sinai. And I ended up taking like a little point and shoot camera. And I met all these amazing people and I took pictures. And when I came back, I developed the film and. It wasn't as great as I wanted it to be or expected it to be. And I was really upset about it. So I decided to take a photography course and that just paved the way. because I fell in love with it. And. I never left the house without my camera from that day on. I just always had my camera with me.

Raymond Hatfield:

So what was it, you know, you get these photos back and I'll be honest, I guess right now with it being spring, for me personally, it's like lawn care. Like I really want to have a nice lawn, like I, which is ridiculous, but like I want it to look nice. And then inevitably dandelions come popping up and it never turns out the way that I want it to.

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

And there's a certain subset of people that would get discouraged and just say, well, this isn't for me. And then obviously there's you, who you see these photos from a cheap, plastic, disposable camera. What was it that you were thinking that made you decide, like, Wait, there's something here that if I studied this, I can make a real go at this. More so than what you were following, which was acting at the time.

Dina Goldstein:

it was that everything was so beautiful there, and the people were so beautiful. And I had this experience, but it didn't really come back to me on my film, like you said. So I wanted to learn. I wanted to be better. I think this is something about me. It's inherent. I just want to be better. really good at what I do, if I do it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Is that with all aspects of your life, do you find? Is that, you think that's who you are in everything that you do? Or does something really have to click with you?

Dina Goldstein:

Well, I mean, I make a lot of mistakes because I try and I try and I try again and again and again. So I'm not afraid of making mistakes. I just want to, maybe figure things out or work things out that I don't understand. And photography kept on giving that back to me, like, just more to learn, more to understand, more to evolve. And maybe that's kind of why I fell in love with it. But also, because I mean, I love treasure hunting, and I find that, photography helped me with that. It was like picking through the negatives and finding that perfect, that little treasure, that one really good image.

Raymond Hatfield:

I would imagine that especially after, while you're in the learning process and trying to uncover how this camera works. Yeah. Finding that, that one photo is like a treasure hunt. It does, it does feel great.

Dina Goldstein:

It's very magical. Yeah. I mean, and remember I started out with film, so it was an instant like it is today. So you would have to wait to get your film back and then kind of discover what's on Cross your fingers that everything went really well, so it was harder. It wasn't like it is today Yeah, not an instant culture.

Raymond Hatfield:

You mentioned earlier that you're not afraid to make mistakes, that you've made thousands of mistakes

Dina Goldstein:

Yes, many.

Raymond Hatfield:

Can you think of one mistake that you made early on maybe when it came to photography that you really struggled with was there a breakthrough with that?

Dina Goldstein:

I don't think it was like one particular moment. I think it's like a whole bunch of little things that luckily I made those mistakes before the important moments, so if I was photographing somebody, if I had like a portrait, uh, shoot, let's say the day before, I would kind of play around and figure things out and make my mistakes. Strong. And not wait for the actual shoot to make the mistakes. I mean, things happen, of course, oh my gosh, on shoot, on the set, that are unexpected, of course, but most of my mistakes, and learning happens in the practice, within the practice.

Raymond Hatfield:

Would you be willing to share maybe like, okay, so I'm sure that people are listening right now thinking, wait, I have a, Or I have a portrait session this weekend, would you be willing to share maybe a form of practice or something that you, that they can do to, to better prepare themselves?

Dina Goldstein:

Okay. For instance, I did photograph a lot of weddings. I photographed weddings, bar mitzvahs, anything, anything. At beginning of my career, I really did not, discriminate between jobs. So I photographed food, people, things, cars, you name it, everything. and I mean, early on, I realized that, there were a few things that I needed to do, to be better at it for, I mean, I spent countless, day shooting wedding sweating when I really should have had like someone there an assistant helping me with my equipment instead of like dragging my equipment and you know at the beginning too they wanted you to do video and photography at the same time oh my

Raymond Hatfield:

gosh that's a whole another set that's a whole oh

Dina Goldstein:

yes I mean this is I'm talking about the 90s that's when I did this

Raymond Hatfield:

no all in one photo video camera at that time

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah. And then, you know, a lot of things that kind of went wrong with like sinking flashes and outdoors and things not like not connecting properly. stuff like that or, yeah, stuff like that. Also like how to engage with people during these events, like, what your mood should be almost like, Like a waitress, like I did some waitressing and when you go up to a table and you kind of like have to gauge what their mood is and like how friendly you're going to be, maybe these people don't want to talk, maybe they want to just be together. And you kind of have to, gauge that with families and people when you're working with people. So stuff like that, if you're looking for like a big mess up, um, I have a really funny story.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm all ears.

Dina Goldstein:

If you want a really big mess up. Okay. but I don't know how much my fault this was, but I was hired to photograph Jackie Chan. Do you know the, the Chinese actor? Of course. Yes. And, martial arts, practitioner. And, so we had to fly to Berlin. We had to fly to Berlin. to photograph him because he was making a movie. So we flew over there and I had like literally, maybe two hours with him, I think. And, I brought all my equipment. I brought my lights, everything. The night before we tested the lights at the hotel and I had bought this whole mechanism because, they have, uh, The voltage is different in Europe from North America. We did the test at the hotel and all the lights blew. All my strobes blew.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh no, it

Dina Goldstein:

exploded, basically exploded. So it was Sunday in Germany. Everything is closed. Everything. I mean, I look for rentals, anybody, anybody that I could reach out to. So I had no lights for my shoot. And that was really stressful, but, I went downstairs just to calm down, to think, down to the hotel. And there was this photographer with a whole light kit there. Apparently, uh, Berlin, uh, Parliament is there, and so there are many photographers photographing members of Parliament. And he was one of them. And I told him my situation. I explained everything to him. And he lent me his lights.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness. What? What are the odds? That is incredible. I know.

Dina Goldstein:

I know. So, and also at that point, I was working with a medium format camera with, transparencies. Oh. and I had to do Polaroid tests. Yeah. So, I suddenly had to pivot and learn his lights, and this is all like in a matter of little bit of time before Jackie Chan walks in. So, it all came together, and then I brought my transparencies to a lab in Berlin, that I didn't even, I've never worked with them, I don't know, and you're just like, Giving them the work, you're just saying here you go Here are the three roles or whatever and crossing fingers counting that everything's going to be okay and of course if it was today with the digital world, it would be much much easier

Raymond Hatfield:

did they turn out? Okay

Dina Goldstein:

Yes. Everything was fine. It's like white background, not very much time lights that I don't know. and yeah, it

Raymond Hatfield:

somehow

Dina Goldstein:

it came together and it worked out. But see, even when you try to test everything and be prepared and have everything in line, it's just like life

Raymond Hatfield:

just like, yeah,

Dina Goldstein:

life. Just dishes you out a whole bunch of challenges.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow, what a story. I can't imagine the amount of stress that I would, be feeling in a moment like that, obviously having to, the fact that you booked the gig, but now having to deal with a high profile, subject in front of the camera and then just everything falls apart. That is, I'm glad that it worked out. And obviously glad that Parliament just so happened to be, in that same hotel at that same time. Cause what a mess that would have been. Let me ask you a question. If that photographer wasn't down in the lobby.

Dina Goldstein:

What

Raymond Hatfield:

would you have done? Like, how would, because you would have had to still got something. how would your game plan change?

Dina Goldstein:

Would probably had to take them outside.

Raymond Hatfield:

Would that have been a possibility?

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you have to have a plan B.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dina Goldstein:

You have to have a plan B. So it would have been not the way that I imagined it. I imagined it like perfectly exposed images in front of a white background, which. Happened actually, which

Raymond Hatfield:

is what came out. Yeah. Good. Which

Dina Goldstein:

is what came out. But, and this was for an ad for, a private airplane company. So he was dressed like a pilot with a whole bunch of airline attendants, like surrounding him and all that. So there were a lot of people. There wasn't only him. There were like five or six people in the shot, which also complicates. Kate's it, it's all like just him. If it's just him, it's more way easier. I can take him outside. I can, you know, but they were like commercial images for an ad and they had to be a certain way. So, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

You'd have to get that, what's that movie? The Catch Me If You Can. You'd have to get that image. And then that would just, just have to be it right there. Well, I want to, I want to take a step back, before we move on from here because, I'm sure the listeners are thinking, whoa, we went from, photo school to, or, or, learning photography to now we're photographing Jackie Chan. So before you started doing, can you tell me how you got into doing commissioned work?

Dina Goldstein:

Yes. So when I first started photography, I wanted to be a photojournalist and I did that for a while. I, got a job with a weekly newspaper and then I did some freelancing for the Art City newspaper, the Vancouver Sun. Thank you. And. That's what I wanted to do. but I quickly realized that I would have to travel a lot to do that and go to very serious war torn areas and dangerous areas. And it's not that I was afraid of that danger. it's that I had met my husband and we got married and, I kind of made a decision at that time, which was the end of the nineties. editorial photography was probably better for me because I am good with people. people I think feel comfortable with me when I'm photographing them and sometimes they have fun. So, so I thought, magazine photography is probably a better thing for me and that's, that's what I, went out to do and I, I created a portfolio with all the work that I had, compiled over that decade, the nineties and, in the two thousands, basically I just went into an editorial career. and shooting for magazines. It's doing mostly portrait work.

Raymond Hatfield:

Can you tell me, like, what's your definition of editorial work? Like I'm trying to picture in my head, if somebody were to ask, like, what's the difference between like an editorial photo and say, like a portrait, I guess, what, what would you say to them?

Dina Goldstein:

Well, I mean, who are you shooting the portrait for? Are you shooting the portrait for you as an artist? Or are you shooting it for a magazine that has specific requirements. They want an outdoor shot. They want it to be three quarter. They they want you to do this or leave space up top for text or, you know, so I think like when you're on assignment for an editorial piece, you're, you're working for them, you're creating a portrait for the publication.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. So editorial work is more for businesses. Whereas, say, portraits or maybe other, I would say, traditional forms of photography that maybe new photographers are looking to get into are more direct to customers? would that sound about right?

Dina Goldstein:

are you taking a portrait for the person? Like does, what does the person require? Is the person a real estate agent? If the person is a real estate agent, they want a picture against a white background, three quarters, friendly, you know, smiling. Doing all that big sold

Raymond Hatfield:

sign. Yeah.

Dina Goldstein:

So who are you taking the photo for? are you taking it for yourself as an artist? If so, What would you do if you didn't have these requirements. I usually did what I wanted. But you're also working with an art director and so not solely for yourself. Mm-Hmm, that's how I would, distinguish between a portrait, portrait that I would take. For myself as an art piece, rather than, a commission from a publication, because I am working with someone also similarly with advertising. It's the same. So you have an art director and the art director is kind of, you're there as the vehicle to make their vision come alive.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. I get it. Yes. Yes. So

Dina Goldstein:

that's the difference between working for yourself, creating work for yourself, and being commissioned, working with an art director, and creating something that they need for their purposes.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Okay. so now that you've been doing this for how many years now? How many years have you been, would you consider yourself strictly an editorial photographer?

Dina Goldstein:

Well, I am no longer an editorial photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay.

Dina Goldstein:

Because? At the beginning of the I quit all of my commercial work, and I began to create my own series, and I became a full time artist.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, okay, okay, so then, before we move on to your, uh, yeah, before we move into the 2010s right there, let me ask, because I'm sure that there are some people listening right now who are looking to get into editorial photography. Yeah. So, if you were to look back at some of your earliest editorial photos. If you can think of one in your head, is there anything that stands out as maybe an amateur mistake or something that, is an overarching theme of your photos that you quickly learn to get rid of for, for better editorial images?

Dina Goldstein:

I think you, you have to go in really humble, like you can't, I mean, people have this kind of, TV character idea of a photographer, you come in and you're like, oh, oh, put that there, do that. That it's really not the way it is because, uh, you have to come in I think it's important to be humble and professional, and when you're working with editorial, you have very little time. So you have to be quick on your feet, quick thinking, and quick working, because you're photographing people usually that are important people, or else, why are you photographing them? I mean, they're going to be in a magazine, they did something, they're high profile people. So they don't have much time and, you just have to be, quick and show them that you respect their time, that, you know, it's that you're professional and that, you know, what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, yeah, with editorial, I'm trying to think of a mistake because you keep on asking me about mistakes.

Raymond Hatfield:

No, you know what? It's it's one of those things. So here's one thing that I've heard oftentimes from listeners of the podcast is that when it comes to Interviews, I suppose. Oftentimes I will interview people, photographers like yourself who have quite a long career. And the photographers who are listening are still in those early days. there they've been shooting between zero and 24 months. Maybe they still have their first DSLR that they got at Costco or whatever. And they see photographers like yourself and think, I want to get there. How do I get there? You know, so when it's time to talk to you,

Dina Goldstein:

I have an answer

Raymond Hatfield:

for

Dina Goldstein:

you.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, let's hear it.

Dina Goldstein:

When I was at the very beginning of my career, I would whine. Oh, I just want to do this. I just want to do this. And I had a friend and he just looked me in the eye and he said, just do it. Just go out and do it. That's all. That's all it takes. And you know what? That's all it takes. It's like, I mean, the thing is not everyone's going to have the talent for this, right? Like I want to be a singer, but I'm a horrible singer. And if somebody said, just go do it, I would do it. And I would break some windows and it would not be a good scene, but, at least I tried it and I gave it a shot, you know, we only live once. Do it. Just do it. Do it. Now. if you really wanna do it and, you feel like you wanna make it a career, I think that you should, make sure that, that you are good at it. You know that you, you have something that even if it's an early talent, that's something that you can develop, that you have a good eye. Cause without that good eye, I don't think it's even worth going forward. You know, like, no matter how many voice lessons that I have, I just, I couldn't do it because I just, I don't have the natural talent and it's not something that everyone can do. It's like now that there are digital cameras. and it's something I noticed in the early 2000s that there were digital cameras coming in and people just felt like they could do it. Even art directors, the ones that I was working with, thought, Oh, I can do it. I have this camera, I can do it now. And it's just not the case. Yeah. Just because you have the equipment doesn't mean that you have the eye and you need the eye to be able to, become good. They're really good at what you do. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

I appreciate you being open and candid there and being honest, cause we can all attest to that. We all know somebody who bought the most expensive camera, hoping that it was going to take the best photo. And, we just know that it doesn't work that way. And I love that. when, one thing that I hear from you is that there has to be tenacity to, to move forward. You have to be okay with making those mistakes. but then, you shared that part right there, which I think is missing from a lot of. interviews, which is you start to have an eye, like you still have to have something there within you, to be able to cultivate. And that's, that's a real thing. So again, thank you for, for being open about that.

Dina Goldstein:

And then it's also too, you have to have that eye and then you have to, learn about light and understand light. Like, for instance, if I were to organize a, weekend, photography, course or something would just take somebody to the same place the whole day and just like take one object and look at that object and we can do it at the studio with the strobe, but you can also do it outside with the sun and see how that particular object changes with the light. You have to understand why you have to see light and feel light and, be open to that, to, to observing, just observing. How light affects and changes. Everything.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Of course. Yeah, that's a major aspect of photography that, again, gets lost in the hoping that the camera will just make everything magical and we know that it doesn't. So again, thank you. Thank you for that. Oh, I want to move on now that we're done with the 2010s. Here you are, here's Dina Goldstein. You are ready to make your mark on the world. And this is when you introduce your series Fallen Princesses. Is that correct?

Dina Goldstein:

Yes. So, this happened just after the digital revolution. So, again, I felt that people were kind of making light of the, the art of photography, the craft of photography. Because making images now became so much easier for people who didn't understand how to use a camera before, because before digital, you had to understand your shutter speeds and your apertures and light. Right. so in the middle of all that, I thought, you know what, if I'm going to create images, I better create images that nobody else can make.

Raymond Hatfield:

okay. So I've heard you on, on many podcasts before I have, read up on this fallen princesses, your collection here. and I know that it started after you found out that your mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and seeing kind of the wonder in your daughter's eye, right? Can you expand a little bit on that?

Dina Goldstein:

Yes. So I'm trying to give you, a sense of the time within the photography world, like what was going on with when I'm describing this digital revolution and me wanting to make pictures and, that were different and, that nobody else could make. At the same time, my daughter was in play school. And, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and the two events kind of collided. And I started, to think because when my daughter came back from school, from daycare, she was suddenly, obsessed with, Disney princesses. And I thought, where is this from? I mean, it's not coming from our home. So it's obviously, something that she's, being exposed to. daycare. It's the only other place she's at. and so my mother's illness and then my daughter's interest made me think about things, in regards to, how pop culture idealizes, gender, roles, and the way that girls are depicted within these Disney, books and films. And I just felt like that. It was really outdated and I didn't want my daughter to To be enthralled with this at all. So that's what got me thinking. And I started putting the princesses in, real life situations with real life challenges, or I tried to do that to, discuss important issues.

Raymond Hatfield:

So obviously many people are listening right now. maybe they're not in front of a computer. Could you describe a few of the images for me?

Dina Goldstein:

Sure. the very first image that I photographed was Rapunzel and that was directly inspired by my mother's illness. And here we have Rapunzel sitting, on a bed in a hospital room attached to, chemo medication. and, she's got her wig that's braided, very, very long braid sitting beside her. and she's looking down. She's, it's just a very kind of serene, look on her face, I guess. And, yeah, so that's one, one of them. And that's like the first one that I photographed. I later went on to, portray Cinderella at a pub, kind of city. After a long

Raymond Hatfield:

day.

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah, it's supposed to be kind of like a hidden away. bar that nobody would see her at. And she's kind of sitting there with a drink. And of course she's, she's sad. And I have a whole backstory to why she's sad. and then you've got all these kind of bar, bar goers, pub goers kind of looking at her, trying to figure out what she's doing there. So I got Joe White at home in domestic. Hell

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah.

Dina Goldstein:

With the Lazy Prince.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm of course gonna put links in the show notes to where, listeners can, find more of your images. But I think that you painted a real good picture there, which is like, well, what happens, after they grow up? Like what happens when they enter the real world? what happens when, the person who we identified as as a child now has to face the things that I have to, I deal with. as an adult. and I think that maybe that's why it became so powerful is because, we do have this idea. I mean, I don't have to tell you why it became powerful, but, what I'm trying to get at here is that with photography, like an idea like this, a concept like this, this takes time. This, this is not something that you showed up. To the pub. And you're like, Whoa, she's dressed up like Cinderella. Let me snap a photo. Like there's a production here, right? Yeah. So

Dina Goldstein:

my methodology completely changed.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. So before

Dina Goldstein:

it was like me and an assistant going out to photograph someone with like a couple of lights, and, it was very little time, that's kind of like the editorial world. I mean, at one point I was shooting like three assignments in one day. It was insane.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dina Goldstein:

Yes. but this is different. This is like, I can't do it just by myself. I need like a crew. I need a makeup artist. I need, an assistant. I need someone to help, put up the lights because there are a whole bunch more lights now that I need to create the scene. so it's very filmic and, just, it's a whole different way of working. and this collaboration I very much enjoy because it's, not only me, I mean, I make most of the decisions, but I really count on everybody's good eye like on set to help with little things because I can't see everything so I'm so having the right people around me a red crew people I trust, that's really important to me and so everything changed in that way. and also finding locations, and of course the actors who are or the models that are going to portray the, uh, characters. main character, the lead character. And for me, that's really important is to find that right person. And I think that's, that I excel in that, like in the casting world. And I find people all like all over the place on the street, stores at home Depot. I mean, I'll go up to anybody if they're, if I think that they're right for, for the character. and I'll approach people, and ask them,

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh. And sometimes

Dina Goldstein:

I get no's.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure, I bet.

Dina Goldstein:

I get yes's, you know, sometimes I get people who are, who the hell are you? And so, and I still get that. Yesterday I went photographing on the beach. I've got a, ongoing project that I'm working on here and I went onto the beach by myself yesterday. And, still get people going new, new, new, new,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right. The beach is a surprisingly vulnerable place for people, but I want to get back to the, I had a question for you about, you come up with these, these concepts for, and you've done many of these projects, many collections of images like this. So my question for you is how do you flesh out the ideas for the images? because you are the one in control building it, I show up to a wedding I capture whatever happens in front of my camera. You have to build it. So how do you come up with the concepts for the individual? Images themselves. mean, obviously your, description of the Rapunzel image right there fits perfectly. It, like, it, it fits in with your life and where you were at at that time, but let's go to something like, your Ten Commandments project,

Dina Goldstein:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

how do you decide, who you're going to choose for something like that and what it is that they're going to be doing in those images? Yeah.

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah, I know. It's like that decision is, could be really rough because like, if I don't make the right choices, like the whole series could be, for not. And it takes me a year or two to create a whole series. So it's really scary. And yeah, it's like, of course thinking that it might not work out, but I don't even, I just, I don't even think like that. I just wipe it out of my head. What I try to do is do one piece at a time. So each series. has about, usually contains about 10 to 12 images. So I focus on one image at a time. Like one, I mean of course I've got things in the background, like I'm looking for a prop for, for Lincoln, while I'm, about to shoot Truman. Like we're talking about the Ten Commandments, right? So the Ten Commandments were, was inspired by the election of Donald Trump. And, kind of, our idealistic America falling apart. Well, I mean, It was never ideal. We all know that, but there was some sort of semblance of, of America as this just great place of opportunity and diversity, and then you see a man like this coming in and totally, destroying this image and basically that was a response to him. And then when I started digging in, I learned more and more about each president and what they did while they were in office and their legacy and so on and so forth. So I tried to build scenarios around that, that were relevant to what's going on in the States now. And I used the format of the Ten Commandments to, because I felt that, There was too much, like, religious, interference. with the right, and them using and bringing up the Bible constantly in regards to policy and the constitution. So that's why I put it in that format, because I felt like a lot of the presidents were breaking those commandments and that the commandments were constantly being broken. So I kind of try to fit each president and I'm not vilifying any of the presidents, but not everybody was perfect. We know that Donald Trump was grossly imperfect, but not everybody else was perfect as well. And that America wasn't, and hasn't been a perfect society, just like, people idealize it. So my main theme and all of my work is disillusion, disillusionment, yes. And I think that people were disillusioned with the United States of America after Trump came in.

Raymond Hatfield:

so let me ask you a question then you, you obviously have this goal, right? The Ten Commandments, that's the frame of this project that you got here. So now do you go through them and then try to find a president who fits and then try to find a scenario that fits or how does the image come together? Can you walk me through that?

Dina Goldstein:

Yes, so, so that's exactly what I did. like I didn't only take presidents that were kind of known for, for their image, how they look like, tall Abraham Lincoln with a hat. Everybody's going to recognize him. He's very recognizable. It was hard because not all of them were instantly like, I mean, They all the presidents that I chose ended up having distinct look, you know that I had to recreate but yeah, they all did kind of something that kind of fell into that Commandment or against that commandment. So Yeah, so I had to specifically choose the right presidents for that So then I it then when I find a president I'm like And then I take the commandment and then I try to create a story, right? A narrative that, will involve a lot of elements, maybe a lot of people, and then in a location that makes sense. Most of my locations are outdoors, I mean, sorry, not outdoors, more on location rather than studio. So that plays a big, big part in what I do because that's, Like, it's like my second character is the location

Raymond Hatfield:

really right, right. So I'm sure that, you know, as well, I guess, first of all, when new photographers get a camera, They think, I see the photo in my head, I want to take it, it doesn't turn out how I want it. For a project like this that takes years to create, I would love to know how close you get from the image that you have in your head when you first start a project to the final product, on a scale from one to a hundred. How close do you get to that initial idea that you had in your head?

Dina Goldstein:

Pretty close. I haven't like ditched any of my photos because there's so much and so much effort and so many people involved that go into my photos that I just feel like I have to make it work. Like I have to, it's got to work. So I think once all the ingredients, like if you have all the like in regards to cooking. I don't know, I'm using that analogy. If you've got all the right ingredients and you put them, you put love and care into it and they're all come together and it'll become a good meal and a good meal, but if maybe one of the ingredients is off, like outdated or whatever, could make this for a stinky meal. So basically, you have to get all your ducks in a row, in a sense, Everything has to be really, like, overplanned, almost, to make it come together the way that you want it. But things happen, oh my gosh, so many things happen. You just have to kind of, work through them. For Washington, for instance, I had rented this, old age home that had been closed down in your facility. and they gave us like two hours to shoot in there or something. It was crazy. Like, I had to get this whole tableau done with, I think there were five people in the shot, and, we came and the area that I wanted to shoot at was full of furniture. Oh. Like they had. Somehow, within a week, took all the furniture in the whole place and stacked it right on my set. Oh my goodness. Yes. And when you have like five people waiting for you, and these are elderly people, like, I cast these, These people who live in a artist's, retirement home. So it's an old age home for artists. And so I had to like bring them all, together and, they're elderly people. And so, at that point you're, Yeah, your head feels like it's about to explode, but then you figure out solution. Like I'm, I guess I'm good at figuring things out when things are like at their most, stressful. I don't know how, why, but some people just break down and fall apart. And I don't, I kind of pick myself together. And I mean, I have all these people that I'm responsible for. And so I do for them. I'm like, no, this shoot is going to happen. I'm not sending these people home. it's going to happen somehow. So it took us an hour to move the furniture and I only had an hour to shoot.

Raymond Hatfield:

And you made it happen.

Dina Goldstein:

And we had to just make it happen.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. Wow. I mean, again, that goes back. What I was about to say is that that just goes back to the tenacity is, is what I'm getting from you is that that's how you have to be to have longevity and to make your vision work. Whatever that vision is, you have to have it.

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah, yeah, you do have to have tenacity, but there are all sorts of characters, and there are all sorts of photographers, and that's why photography is so beautiful, because I could be a really quiet person and make really poetic and beautiful work, really quiet work, or I can do this Big, loud, explosive, colorful stuff, so I think like, you don't necessarily have to be, have tenacity, you just have to have tenacity to do what I'm doing, you know, what I do, and bringing together these sets with low budgets, fairly low budgets, I'm competing with film industry here in Vancouver, and, with a lot of, creatives that are going to the film industry, and a lot of, locations that are, taken or super expensive and stuff like that, but I think like You just have to be who you are. You don't have to you don't necessarily have to be like me, but you do have to have some sort of stick with it You know kind of mentality and that's different for a lot of people

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I'm sure what I had just said might have turned off some people. So thank you for that clarification, for sure. I know that we are, right at the end of our time here that we had scheduled. Do you have time for two more questions? Yes, absolutely. Okay, wonderful, wonderful. always interested because, the type of photography that you do when it comes out of your own head, I don't even want to get into the, like, amount of second guessing you might have to do, just in, in a single day on set, but as a, as an artist, I'm sure that ideas are just constantly brewing in your mind, interesting ideas for, for photo projects. How do you decide what topic wins over another?

Dina Goldstein:

Well, I have to feel very strongly about it. like all of my series. we're inspired by something that meant something to me. like gods of suburbia, depicts, religious characters. And here I wanted to create a conversation about religion and belief and the, the belief system that, that is made up of the collective, how we see things, how we, how you and I see. The image of Jesus and why we see the image of Jesus in the same way, you know, and how pop culture has contributed to the images of, of these characters, of these religious characters. And that was really interesting to me. so I dug more into it and tried to understand why it meant so much to me. Because, I grew up, going to a, Jewish school with a Jewish education and lots of biblical, storytelling. So, the belief in the supernatural and in these kind of ancient stories has always been interesting to me. And so then I use that, to push me forward make a decision, so is this a topic that you're going to focus on and spend the next few years on, it doesn't mean that much to you. Does that journey, that exploration mean that much to you? And in this case, it did, and then also a trip to India, where there's so many gods and there's so much reverence, that too, just also added to my inspiration. And after India, I made the decision, absolutely. I'm going to do this series, this series and depict. like gods from different cultures.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. And it's a really, I mean, thought provoking collection of images. It's really interesting to see like where they might be today, what they would look like. And that's, that's really interesting. Have you ever had an idea that didn't, that you decided not to pursue, but maybe there for a while you, you were really excited about it?

Dina Goldstein:

I have a lot of ideas, but then, like I said, I don't want to do anything that anyone else has done because to me it's just kind of a waste of time. I want to do something like new and at least, mostly new to the world and so much has already been done. Right. So if I have a good idea, like I'll research it, I'll see maybe someone else has, done similar work or You know, I'll run it by my friends or by Jonas, my spouse, and I kind of get a feel for it. But mostly everything that I choose is really intuitive. Like, I just feel like this is it, this is what I have to kind of dive into. it's intuitive instinctual almost. And sorry, I just, yeah, just make the decision. I just, yes. I had

Raymond Hatfield:

to write that down. I thought. sometimes after a long time of doing something, and I've realized this just in hosting the podcast. And now that I'm formulating what I'm about to say, it sounds like a humble brag here, but it's like, I've been shooting several years, and now there's a group of listeners who, maybe have questions for me. And I think to myself often, like, Oh, well, this is like, here's the answer. Like, this is so easy to come by. and I think that that's because like, for me at this point, it's, Kind of, as you said, like instinctual. Like now I just know I have the technical ability. Now I just know that that's what needs to happen. And I've, part of me feels like some of the questions that I'm asking you, I'm not doing justice with. Because, answer from you are like, you have to feel it. Like, this is just like, this can't be answered. This is just something that you have to figure out on your own to be able to do. And that is, you have to

Dina Goldstein:

have your technical knowledge too, though. You can't, it can't all be intuitive. You have to have the intuition and the technical knowledge and the two come together, to create. special work, work that stands out, work that touches people that connects with people. So it's not one or the other. It's really like a combination of both. And like, if you took me out right now, I could tell you, I don't need a light meter. I could tell you what the exposure is, like, I just, like, I know it. I feel it. I feel the light. It's part of me. And. If you look at all, if you look at people who love photography and you look at their phones and you just go into their photos, you'll see all these crazy pictures of like things, shadows and colors and things that make no sense to everybody else. But it's just things that we see because we see it where our eyes are open and therefore we see it.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was a great explanation. Again, I think you took my jumbled up terrible question and turned it into something that, that I know that there's a lesson in there that obviously those listening are going to truly appreciate. So thank you. But my last question here for you before I let you go, I want you to talk to me about your archive, from musicians, famous faces, your documentary work, travel, and all of these series. You truly have a lot to offer. I mean, like you've, transformed into several different photographers, throughout your career, which makes this archive like really interesting to look at now as a wedding photographer, I'm not really familiar with the concept of posting an entire archive. Now, is this every photo that you've ever taken or is it curated down? Tell me about what the goal is. Of

Dina Goldstein:

course, of course. No, no, I had to spend, I spent the year going through piles and piles and piles of negatives and picking out the ones that I felt were, special or relevant in some sort of way. And, now I think we've ended up with almost 3000, which is not a lot for 30 years of photography. When you think about it, because I've spent a lot of my time doing commercial work, like I wasn't always photographing. I was. shooting advertising, I was shooting, magazine work and newspaper work and that kept me busy. So this, this is kind of the stuff that I did on the weekend or, because I had my camera with me and I saw this picture. and some of them are actually from assignments. Like some of the portraits are from assignments and then the travel, of course, I love to travel. I love different cultures and I'd love to experience. Different, places and people and just to, soak in the culture. I love that. So, I got to do that later with, traveling with my artwork because I was invited to, festivals and be in alleys with my work. So really, in the past 10 years, I've done a lot of traveling. And that's just really fun. So, I mean, I'll always have my camera with me ready to go. Yesterday, I actually pulled out a film camera and, like I told you at the beginning, I went to the beach and, that was different because, of course, you don't have the instant gratification. And, of course I'm nervous about how my film is going to work out.

Raymond Hatfield:

Full circle.

Dina Goldstein:

Yeah. Full circle. Exactly. But, yeah, I mean, I, I think like always be open, always experiment and be willing to make mistakes and be willing to just jump in and do it. Just jump in and, of course people feel, have fear, and, fear of failure, fear of, Not doing the best work you can, but you have to fight that fear. You have to push through it. And on the other side, it could be good. It could be bad. You never know, but at least you did it. At least you like you, move through it, you know, move through that stuff, otherwise do you, you really get stalled and that's what everything in life, I think not only photography, it's just a life lesson too. I mean, I view like everyday is amazing because I really feel that, we only have one life and that's it. So if you, feel like me. And I mean, if you, I don't know how to say this without sounding so rough, but if you feel like, there's another world waiting for you or another life waiting for you, maybe you kind of, have a different attitude about life, but I just feel like this is it, right? This is it. This is now. and so. Just go for it.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love it. was there anything that you were surprised to, to discover about maybe yourself as a photographer while going through your entire archive, both physical and, and digital negatives?

Dina Goldstein:

I think that it was really fun going down, like memory lane and remembering all these shoots, like I remembered all the details with portraits and even some street stuff. You know what my circumstances. Were at that time. It just brings back a lot of memories and, going back to collect all these images was really good for me because it just makes me, feel like more organized. Like before I just like, if anything happened to me. I don't think anybody would know what to do with this stuff. I just feel like now I could, not that I'm, I'm thinking that anything will happen, but at least it's all organized. And I feel really good that I can leave this, this legacy, like a little more cleaned up and organized, just in case anything happens or, just for the future and now I can really work on my book. in a very, concise way, because now that I've collected all these images, I would have never been able to work on a book without doing this process, actually. So, I mean, that's the final result. I really would like to publish a book with all of these works. So, in a sense, I've collected them now, and it's an easier process.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, I am excited for when the book comes out. Be sure to take my name and my number. I'm going to give you my credit card information because I want a copy. That's going to be my first. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Dina, again, thank you for coming on being open, being honest, sharing everything that you did and obviously staying later than we had anticipated before I let you go. Can you let the listeners know where they can learn more about you and find you online?

Dina Goldstein:

Absolutely. So I have a website. It's Just my name, Dina Goldstein dot com. you can look through the collections that we were talking about today, and there's also an archive tab. You can go into the archive and it's divided into categories. I think it's pretty easy to navigate.

Raymond Hatfield:

Check

Dina Goldstein:

that out.

All right. Today's action item being the one thing that if you implement it today, will move the needle forward in your photography, is this, create a mini editorial assignment. Yeah, this should be fun. Assign yourself some sort of mini editorial project. And to do that you start with picking a theme. Maybe it's your morning routine, maybe it's local car culture, maybe it's pets at play, something like that. And then think it out. What are the type of images that would communicate the message that you're trying to say about that thing? What is the goal of your morning routine? What does connection look like in your local car culture? How do people interact when pets are playing? Again, think it out. What would be the images that would communicate what it is that you're trying to say, and then set some sort of constraint. Maybe just shoot five to 10 images and then stick to it. Yeah, these should be photos that you feel an editor could use for a magazine spread. The images should tell a story. It's not about technical perfection. It's about creating images that can tell a story together and then give yourself some sort of like, a half day deadline. Like, don't let this grow into this year long project. Like just create it. because this is not about creating earth shattering work. It's about getting you to see the world photographically and taking action'cause otherwise you just listen to this whole interview for nothing. Don't do that. Take action. All right, that is it for today. Until next time, remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you'll be tomorrow. Talk soon.