Happiness, Heritage and Money with Jenny Jay

On today’s episode, Ellyce is joined by visual storyteller, entrepreneur and fellow Canadian Jenny Jay (she/her) to discuss the age-old question: can money buy happiness? Jenny’s answer… kinda? Listen and find out!

Jenny dives into how her South Asian heritage, working class immigrant parents, and entrepreneurial spirit have shaped her perspective on money. She shares how her parents' opposing views on money impacted her and how financial literacy is the only way to work the systems that gate-keep access to money.

It’s also South Asian Heritage Month and we are so happy Jenny could give us a glimpse into her culture.

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Transcript

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Hi and welcome back to this week's episode of Keep Finance Queerd, a podcast that's putting the personal back in personal finance through complex and nuanced guest interviews and solo episodes. I'm your host Ellyce Fulmore, and today I am joined by visual storyteller, creator, entrepreneur and fellow Canadian, Jenny Jay. Jenny's experience in education over the last seven years has become integral to the content that she writes, creates and shares. She recognizes the difference that it makes when stories are shared in a way that recognizes your community and validates their experiences together. Jenny believes that we can make spaces online, in our media, in our conversations and in our businesses, spaces for change. I'm super excited about what Jenny brings to the financial conversation today as a South Asian woman who also experiences invisible disability, has lived unhoused before and without financial security, and also is just existing in all of her other identities. If you didn't know, May is actually Asian Heritage Month, and I am so excited to have Jenny on the podcast to share a bit of her story and her culture. On today's episode, we discuss the age old question, can money buy happiness? Jenny's answer? Kind of. You'll have to listen to the whole episode to hear her thoughts. Jenny also dives into how her South Asian heritage, working class immigrant parents, and entrepreneurial spirit have shaped her perspective on money. She shares how her parents opposing views on money impacted her and how financial literacy is the only way to work the systems at gatekeep access to money. I apologize because the audio is not the best for this interview, but it is an amazing conversation that you're not going to want to miss. So buckle up for today's episode, Happiness, Heritage and Money with Jenny J. Hi there. Hi, I'm Sydney. My name is Rebecca. I'm an autistic K woman. I'm Jane. I'm a first generation Latina. I am a single mom and a survivor of domestic abuse. I am an ADHD plus sized millennial on the autism spectrum and Add, creating other problems in itself. Even though I bring in decent money, I struggle with dayning ahead of everything. I am now struggling to pay off my debt. My traumatic brain injury means that it's hard for me to concentrate long enough to sort out my finances. The hardest time managing my finances my parents were never able to teach me. I love my Starbucks habit and I'm not giving it up. Hi Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Yeah. I'm so excited for this. I have been anxiously awaiting this interview for so long. You're one of the first people I knew that I had to reach out to, so this is a very exciting moment for me. Yeah. And this conversation, I feel like needs to be had. I know we haven't had it yet, but it needs to be had. Yes, I agree. I feel the same way. So I actually came across your work earlier on in the pandemic because you were posting just such incredible content around a lot of social injustice that was happening and obviously continues to happen around the world. And some of your posts were just like coming across my feed and that was my first kind of introduction to your content, and I really loved it. And then when we were both part of Growth Week, that's when I really started following your content and learning more about you. And you're one of the creators that I really admire and look up to because you're just such an incredible storyteller and you do a really good job of breaking down really hard topics so that people can learn and understand them, which is something that I aspire to do with my content as well. Would you be able to share a little bit more about who you are and the work that you do as a storyteller entrepreneur? My name is Jenny Jay. My pronounce is she her and I am a lot of things. I identify deeply as a multi hyphenate and a multi passionate person. The work that I do is really rooted in multimedia storytelling and what that looks in the new wave and age of media that we exist in now. It looks and shows up in a multitude of ways. It shows up in the photography and videography for hire that my company does. But it also looks like in education for folks who are telling and creating content or sharing and creating content and really supporting them in ways to make sure that the spaces they are showing up in the digital world is also as inclusive and accessible as possible in ways that people feel like their stories are really being listened to and taken into account and that people feel like they belong in. So that is some of the work that I do, which again shows up in a lot of different ways. I'm also like a creator myself. I have my platform and all of it kind of mixed together to create what you see. Yeah. I feel like you're always working on so many exciting projects. We've been watching your stories, like the last week. I'm like, oh my gosh, what is she doing now? This is so exciting. They all make sense together. I think the whole storytelling and that multi media and truly inclusive approach beyond it just being like a diversity and inclusion buzzword is where all of the pieces of what I do show up together. Really? Yeah. And I love that you incorporate all of those values into everything you do, and I think that's so important. I feel like our values really align and that's like a big part of what I'm trying to do with the podcast is like elevate people's stories and also for people that are listening, they can feel like seen and understood through people's stories and through people's lived experiences. So I love that. And I feel like a large part of content today really needs to involve the storytelling piece. I feel like that's such an important thing that is not always put into a lot of content creation. I feel like that's what really helps bring us together and feel connected and feel understood and seen, like, all those things you said. Yeah. I'm just a big admirer of your work, and I love the mission behind your business and everything you do. So we're going to dive right into some of the juicy questions. Absolutely. And thank you, by the way. I really appreciate that. How has your identity or the major pieces of your identity impacted your relationship with Money? I think being a children of immigrants has been such a huge impact on my relationship with Money, especially because I definitely grew up in the household that was like the working class immigrant family. And as I grew up and as I transitioned from elementary school to middle school to high school, that changed. When it changed, it continued to impact the way I have a relationship with money and just what that kind of exists for me now. Yeah. I think the biggest pieces of my identity that have impacted my relationship with Money is 100% like being a children of immigrants and also being South Asian and specifically from the island of Sri Lanka. I think that just showed up in how my parents prioritize different things, and especially my dad, like, my mom raised us in a very different way. But whenever my dad had input on what he would love our features to look like because of how much he knew, how much of a struggle things were for him, it really kind of created some of the foundation of what my money mindset is today. Some good, some struggle, some that we're working through. And then I also think especially because even to this day, even though my parents are no longer technically a part of the working class and have moved into being middle class, my dad still like his job is physical. And I think that's also really impacted my relationship with money because I think when your work is tied to your physical body and you are working where you're working for your labor, like, quite literally it's very different than being in a space where you're working with your mind. And so I've grown up watching my dad come in the household that I grew up in be tied to his physical labor because he's a truck mechanic and that's his business. I think not even until I've just said this out loud really realize just how many layers there kind of are when you start to unpack that a little. Yeah. There's so many layers. And I think that's been a common theme with a lot of the interviews I've done is like how much your childhood and your parents relationship to money can impact you. And so much of it, you don't even realize. I feel like I unpack a new layer of my own life every week. And I'm like, oh, wait, I know why I did this. Now it just starts to make sense. Yes. And we're just little sponges as children and, like, soak up kind of everything around us. So I think that's really interesting. And I have a couple of questions about some of those. So the first one is, what does money represent in South Asian culture? It represents so much. I obviously can't speak for all South Asians everywhere, but I think, at least for me, when I think about money in relation to my culture, I think about gold, and I think about the value of gold in our culture and how it's really funny. I was actually in a room with some other South Asian folks, like South Asian millennials, and we were talking about the price of gold and how the price of gold has changed. And one of them looked around and she was like, we become our parents. We're talking about the price of gold. But it was just really funny because when I think about money in our culture, I think about the value of gold. I think about the way every time there's a celebration, the way money and gifting is involved. And again, gold is really involved. Even recently, I had a cultural celebration for my niece, and again, really rooted in, like, 24 Karat yellow gold kind of values and symbols of prosperity and abundance, but also low key, like showing off your class and what you have access to. So I think those are the things that I think when I think about money inside of my culture. Yeah, that's so interesting. That's like something that I want to dive into now that you're talking for my own research, because I didn't realize how much gold was a part of South Asian culture. So this is a good learning opportunity for me, too. And yeah, I think it's really interesting to learn from all the different guests how culture is so intertwined with money and how it shows up in different ways. And yeah, it's really fascinating for me just to see how it's so different across cultures, across countries, across just so many differences and how people choose to use money, celebrate money, spend money, view money, all of those things. So you mentioned that your dad's work was tightly tied to or his ability to make money was tightly tied to also like his physical work. So how did that impact you as you moved into your own work? As a young adult? I think it's always been really hard for me to not tie my worth to the physical act of doing. I think the whole one percenters work smarter, not harder, like world of making money is. So there's such a distance there for me because even now it's just really hard not to tie like this. And I put in this and I get this. I put in hours just amount of effort. And like, this is like the return because again, how our family was doing was based on my dad's physical ability to go outside and physically work. Yeah. So I think it places a mental block you don't even know you have on, like, the idea of earning potential. And that still shows up for me on the day today because they're so deeply ingrained with what's been shown to us or told to us as children. So I think, yeah, it shows up in that way. It's really hard sometimes for me to conceptualize what having a certain kind of income not tied to working more would look like. Yeah. And I think, like a smaller scale. A lot of people struggle with that, just living in, like, a capitalist society and that we're taught. But the work that we put in is like, what will get out? Like, you have to be productive in order to earn money, and you have to work harder to make more money, and that more work harder work equals more money and those kind of things. So I know that's something that I struggle with a lot, too, like running my own business. It's like, oh, I don't feel productive today, so I don't deserve to relax or I shouldn't be making money if I'm not working hard and all of those things. So, yeah. Do you have any tips, like, is there anything that has helped you navigate, like how to not tie your worth as tightly to your work output? I think I mean, I laugh because I'm like, no, I deal with that on the day to day. What do you mean? We're still working on it. And I think really coming back to money is not happiness is like what I have to come back to. What is happiness? What is it that I want? And it's really funny because again, we're talking about growing up and the way growing up influenced different ways of thinking and how we behave. And my dad is truly a capitalist, and my mom is truly what makes you happy. How can you find joy? Money will not solve your problems. Being at peace with yourself will. I have both sides of me very deeply, very inherently in my existence. And so for me, it's really coming back to my mom, which is a lot of the ancestral ways of being and healing and showing up and really doing things in a way beyond the capitalistic system that we live in is kind of a mindset that my mom has and has tried to remind me of so often. It's not easy. It's when the world around you tells you that you have to do certain things, and otherwise it's really difficult for you to survive. It's not easy. But I think coming back to what's really important. What do I really want to prioritize? How can I do it? Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I can imagine that's like probably a continual learning process of trying to find the balance between your two parents because you've got both ends of the spectrum. They're trying to find what works for you. And I'll say one tip that I have, although I'm very much in this at this moment, I still struggle with this every day. But something that has helped me is like putting things on my to do list that are not work. So like putting self care or like time with my girlfriend or even just like morning walk or putting out all my to do list. And so I intentionally celebrate that I did those things and that that's like part of my work output for the day, which maybe is the wrong way to think about it. But since I live off of my Todo list, it just makes me feel like, oh, I'm celebrating that I did these things, like, for myself and that had nothing to do with me. It's not like an income producing activity. It's just me doing these things. So that's like a small thing that I feel like has helped me just prioritize those things and celebrate them a little bit more because otherwise I just tend to forget and just only worry about what did I do today that was productive? So that's been helpful. But I really want to dive into what you said about money not equating to happiness, because I think that so many people listening probably have heard a similar narrative around money and happiness before. I think this is a pretty common thing that's been told to a lot of us. So what does the relationship between money and happiness mean to you right now? I think I found peace with that statement when I was able to understand that money doesn't equal happiness, but it does give you a certain level of comfort, and that comfort gives you privilege. And you cannot expect money to be the source of your happiness, but you cannot erase that without a certain level of money. And whatever that amount is is different for different people. But without the level that you need for your kind of basic needs, like for your basic survival, it impacts your ability to find joy and access joy. And I think because of Hustle culture, because of the world that we live in, there's only ever been two options, like make a lot of money or money doesn't buy happiness. And I think when I finally was able to just access a little bit more of that nuance, it makes it easier to remember even if all these things are falling apart around me or even if I don't have access to the comforts I wish I had. There are ways if they are harder and they might be harder and they will be harder and they can be harder. There are ways to find worth outside of the worth that money brings you. So I think that's what that means. Now to me, it means that my worth comes from the relationships I have. My worth comes from how I feel in myself and how I feel about myself and the way I exist and take up space. Yeah. It comes with acknowledging that money still gives you privileges and comfort. That gives you the tools to access it at different levels. Yeah, I completely agree. And I'm really glad that you brought up, like, the nuanced part of that phrase, because I don't think it's as simple as like, does money equal happiness? Yes or no? Like, exactly what you said. If you're in survival mode and your basic needs aren't being met, then it is like you mentioned a lot harder to find joy and happiness because you're in survival mode and you're just trying to get by. And so money can afford you that certain level of comfort, to be able to enjoy those moments and not be as worried and stressed out and anxious in those times, too. And something like an exercise that I actually can't remember where I first read this, but it was think of, like, all the things in your life that bring you happiness. And if you write all those things down and then look at that list, do you need money to do any of those things? And for me, a big source of my happiness is like being with my friends and family, doing things with my girlfriend, like exploring our city and trying new things. I love traveling when it's not a pandemic and being able to build my business. I also love being able to give back to people in the community and organizations that I care about. And almost all those for me do involve some money. My family doesn't live in the same city as me, so I have to travel to see them. I'm new to the city, so all my friends live somewhere else and things like that. So I agree with you that I don't think that money is a source of happiness, and I don't think that having money will just automatically make you happy. But I think that money can allow for that, like, a lot of freedom and experiences that do bring you happiness. So I love this topic. I love talking about it. I love mismosting it with the listeners because I think that there's like, yeah, it's a very black or white kind of thing. I think a lot people view it that way. Well, I think when we really break it down and we can just remember, I think the idea of money doesn't equal happiness. It's really about material things will not make your soul at peace. And money as a material thing will not bring you that joy. And the material things you purchase with money will not actually ultimately bring you that joy. However, the experiences and the memories that you can make and the things that you can do with the concept of money as a resource. Yeah. Can bring joy. Yeah. So you mentioned the importance of finding worth in other things when you might be in a really tight financial spot. And I know that you grew up in working class and you struggled with money throughout your life. And so how are you able to find your worth in those moments? Or, like, what are some, like, first steps you would suggest? If someone's in that survival mindset of, like, wanting to enjoy their life but also struggling with their finances, where should they start with finding their worth? It's really easier said than done to say that you need to let go of the anxiety that comes with all the worries of not having enough. Some days it was really hard and I couldn't. The days I could are the days that I had other things that brought me more joy than the levels of anxiety and overwhelmed that I was feeling and focusing on those things that were actually bringing me joy. And I think also to a level of to a certain degree, because of the way I was raised and because of the sheer belief that I would not make money and have access to money that I had, I was constantly both surprised and joyful. When money came my way, it would be like the smallest gig. Like, when someone first offered to pay me, like, $900 for something. I was through the roof when I got a job. When I was 2022, 23, I got a job working $18 an hour. And I genuinely was like, wow, like, you making $18 an hour. That is so cool. Are you kidding me? This is incredible. Just think of everything you can do. I think, to a level, I almost feel like it was something that really helped me was actually not knowing what it meant to have and to go from not having into being, like, a have not to being someone who has today. If I were to go back to not having, I think that would be a very different struggle and an experience that I don't necessarily know how I would be able to support myself in that situation, because once you know what it is to have, I think it's a very different experience to not. I don't know if that was actual advice. Yeah. What I heard from that is like working on ways to let go of that anxiety in that moment which you touch on, like, harder or easier said than done. I know something that I've talked about before on my page is, like the importance of internal security and trying to find as much sense of security as you can in yourself, like, outside of those external forms of security, like money. And again, this is easier said than done. But some things you can do is examining how safe do you feel in your environment, how safe you feel. Like working through your emotions, processing your emotions, like, things like that. And sometimes that can help a little bit with, like, if you're feeling more safe in yourself and who you are and your ability to process things, work through things that can also help alleviate some of that anxiety that comes with external things. And I also heard from what you said, like, celebrate your money. When you do have money coming in, like celebrate it. Be excited about it. Hype yourself up. Yeah, I think that's, like an awesome piece of advice, and I think that would apply to anyone, no matter what kind of money you're making right now. Like, celebrate the money that's coming in. Like, you're doing that. You're making money. Yeah. I think the biggest thing, too, now that you're saying all of that out loud and back to me, too, was when I actually started to acknowledge money with the resources and the idea of it's just money. The first time someone said that to me, I was in University. And long story short, I had gone away on a thing for Reading Week and on a trip on Reading Week, and we had gotten into a car accident and didn't have the right insurance, and insurance didn't cover it. And so the cost of not having the right insurance was $6,000. And I wasn't the one driving it was one of my friends. But we're all like, okay, let's put in resources together. And so my part in pitching towards that was like, $2,500. And I remember them saying, it's okay, it's just money. Like, we're okay, we're fine. It's just money. And I was like, what in the heck do you mean? It is just money. It is $2,500 that I do not have. Easy for you to say. This is not what I have. It took me I think it was two years to pay that off to my friend. Like, they covered it, and it took me two years to pay that off. And I think in that process and in that journey and in trying to recover some of my money and work through it, I think just really realizing, like, money is a resource, and it comes and it goes and it comes and it goes and it changes. And it is really just this made up concept that we have created. That's what I was going to say. Change goods. That's all it is. It is literally a social construct that we have to subscribe to. Yes. And then it just becomes easier. You're like, oh, this is like, we really just made this up. It's just money. Yeah. Way easier said than done. It took me a long time to get there, but when we got there, I was like, okay, it's fine. We can get more of it, because banks literally print more of it when they feel like it countries. So why can't we? You literally took the words out of my mouth because I was just about to be like, this is a controversial opinion, but mine isn't real. It totally is. Freaking mistake. Yes, literally. It just was a way for people to trade things basically as an IOU. Like instead of trading physical goods and services, it was like, I'll just give you this coin instead. I'll get you later. And then it just turned into money. And then, yeah, it's totally a social construct. It means different things in different countries. It has different value in different countries, different names, different like, everything. I love that you brought this up because I could not agree more. And I think that to kind of like, acknowledge your situation. I think that it's valid to also still feel that anxiety that you were feeling in that situation. I don't think, like, for anyone listening, it's not helpful in the moment to beat yourself up of like, why am I feeling this way? Like, I should feel different about money. I think those feelings are valid. But yeah, I think that that's also like something that you can recognize as an area that you may want to address or look into or work on when it comes to your money mindset. How can I think about this differently? And I think for both of us having that belief that money isn't real, I think it does make everything a little bit easier. It's kind of like a game. I'm not saying your life is a game. I still think you should take your life seriously. But I just mean, like, it's not real and it's like, it is renewable. Like, money is a renewable resource that just keeps coming back and it can come back in different forms. And I think even just viewing it that way, for me, it makes everything a little bit more enjoyable. When I think about money, well, I think when we also think about it in that holistic way of like, what are the resources we have? And they are usually time, energy and money. What resource are you willing to give to get more of the other resource? Yeah. And when we start to look at it from that holistic way, a lot of things now make sense to me because I can say, well, it doesn't make sense for me to keep the resource of money but lose the resource of time when time is actually the thing I need the most of in my day to day, or that's something that is a priority for me. So when I can name that, I can shift my approach to being like, okay, well, how can I have enough of the resource of money to give me the time and energy I want to have that can give me the healing and the space of being in the body that I have and that I live in a little bit more. And there are always going to be like, the systemic things at play that impact that and the very real realities that people in certain bodies experience in the world that we live in. And I at least I'm of the belief that we have to change the system, but we unfortunately have to work within it while we change it. Yeah, I feel the same way. I've got comments sometimes of like, why are you giving money advice when you're like, anti capitalist system? Like you just said, this is a system that we're living in. So I want to help everyone feel more equipped for tackling it. But at the same time, I can also want to dismantle the system. They can both exist at the same time, but unfortunately, you won't see the collapse of capitalism anytime soon. So we got to work with it right now. But yeah, I really love what you said about figuring out which resources are most important to you and then basically figuring out that balance between them of what is going to give you the resources that you want and how can you balance out the other ones to kind of get there? Well, of course, like working within the constraints that you do have. And obviously there's going to be a lot of things that are out of your control, like capitalism, systems of oppression, all of those things. You can't control what those do, but you can focus on what is in your control and what is important to you. So I think that's really great advice, and I just love this conversation. So, Jenny, I know you have some incredible projects that you're working on, and you care so deeply about social justice issues. So how do you manage to show up authentically with your messaging and with your passion while still trying to balance out the importance of making money? In April of 2019, I was really working full time as a photographer and videographer. I registered my business in 2015, but hadn't really dedicated full time to it until 20 19. 20 19 was the first year I really came back to be like, let's do this. And for context, the year before in 2018, when I did have my business and I was also working on another start up with another person before, too. But my business in 2018 had made top line revenue of $11,000, net revenue of $3,000. Even when I looked at that T four at that time, I had no idea what it actually meant to have $3,000 as your yearly income, because I had, again, such a limited, really understanding of financial literacy and how that shows up and what you need to have to do things in the world that we live in. And so I said that all to kind of preface 2019 came around and I went into the New Year being like, I just want to do the thing and do what I love, and hopefully it pays and all of that stuff. In April 2019, the Easter attacks in my motherland happened with the bombings on the churches in my motherland, minutes away from where my grandma walks, like, every day. And my uncle was at the airport in one of the locations where they found some bombs. And I remember calling my friend, who is a very wonderful talented sales coach and entrepreneur as well, and being like, I feel really helpless. I don't have money to give to the people back home. I don't have the financial resources to help, and I don't know what to do. I really don't know how to help. And I was just hurting so deeply for the people in my motherland, the people here in the diaspora. And she was like, well, the new cycle might end, but these problems aren't going to go away. So how do you want to help? Like, how do you want to show for your community what would you like to do? And at that time, I also had really sticky feelings about charging more because I was like, well, what about financial accessibility? And that was like, the constant. Like, I was like, oh, this isn't financially accessible to people. Like, I can't charge this much. It was so hard. And I had to really keep bringing it back to, like, if I want to make the impact I want to make, one of the resources that I need to have in the world that we live in, unfortunately, is money. And I don't like to admit that because I really wish that wasn't the system we lived in. And I'm so anti it. But if I'm not, like, surviving, if I'm not able to give myself rest because I'm working so hard to still be underpaid, I can't do that. Like, I just physically, emotionally can't do that. So that conversation really sparked a reminder of how do I want to create impact? What do I actually want? How do I want to do it? And that year and changing and shifting so much of that mindset. My top line revenue at the end of 2018 was $11,000. And at the end of 2018, my top line revenue was 11,000. And at the end of 2019, it was just over 100. And that also gave me the space and resources to invest into gear that I never had financial access to have to purchase. I didn't have, like, access to loans. I didn't have people to co sign for me. I didn't have access to equipment and all those things that it finally gave me the space for that has continued to help me build on a foundation that gives me a little bit more space every single year to do a little bit more with what I have access to now. Yeah, a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that. And I also agree that I hate that the way that our system is set up is that, like, money is a very important research for making impact, especially, like, for things that are happening outside of our community where we can't necessarily be in person to help and give our energy or our time. And obviously there's things we can do, like sharing things on social media, like educating people, educating ourselves. But money is a huge resource that can help in those situations. And social capital is important, too. At the time, I also had no social capital. I was like, right, yeah, I don't know social capital. I don't have financial capital all around. Capital is just not existing in this quarter of the totally. Yeah. Like, if you have 20 followers, it's not necessarily going to reach as many people as you'd like. I think that's also an important thing to acknowledge that money can help you have that impact and that you can want more money in order to want to have more of that impact. And you mentioned that was able the money that you earned, you were able to grow your business and help more people and impact more people and reach more people through that. So, yeah, I think that's really incredible. And I would love to know you mentioned the kind of situation that happened in your homeland in April and how that was really like a turning point or catalyst, I guess, for you thinking this way. But what were some of the shifts that you had to make in, like, your pricing and the way that you were showing up in the way that you were running your business in order to actually change from 11,000 revenue to 100,000, which is obviously a huge increase in one year? So what were some of those shifts that had to happen? I had to, like, one believe that I was worthy of that amount. I think the justification of price to me was a constant, like, I need to work on it. I remember I had a client in that year, and at the time when I pitched to her, I believe it was in April, she was the highest paying client I'd ever had. And it was for a job that involved filming and videography for 20 days, 8 hours a day, filming and creating videos. Full videos. Not like small videos, like full videos out of what we were filming in those, like, 20 days. And I charged her $5,000 for that. And to me, I almost threw up sending that email being like, well, that's my rate. And I just remember we filmed so much for that client. This is all videography based and, like, horse creation. And we filmed so much that physically my computer couldn't handle it. And we needed bigger hard drives and more storage space. And so we ended up buying an entire custom editing computer again, something I didn't have before that cost half of that amount, like 2500 that we put into this computer just to physically have the bandwidth quite literally. And so I think even just like taking that one example and just really drilling into my head like, you're charging based on what you think you're worth for the hours you're putting in, but you're really not accounting for everything else that you need to support you to do this work. And I think that was like every day when I would edit and my partner also works for me now and he would also edit and he would be like, we did not charge underpaid. I think that started to really kind of hit home and at the same time in the same breath, in the same year, I remember talking to a mortgage agent because again, very naively had no idea what it looked like to think about purchasing a home and whatever. And I remember showing him at that time, at that point in the year, I had made like $70,000 and he looked at me like scorn in the eyes and said, no one will ever believe a photographer and a woman who's a photographer is making $70,000 a year audacity. And there's just like a lot of just like, reminders that I think keeps coming up and kept coming up. And there were so many times still to this day that increasing prices, changing things like being visible about what those prices are. I still feel that. But it took a level of just really getting comfortable and really knowing what my hours are worth. That stuff takes time. And the more you also, I think, have access to financial education, really, the more you realize, like, if you want to exist again and navigate the system that we live in, it requires certain something. The second I realized, like, oh, like three to four years of my T four statements need to show that I have X amount for my salary if I want to even think about qualifying for a mortgage is what I need to have. And otherwise I will like many millennials struggling in this housing thing, like be renting, even the understanding we don't own property. My partner and I don't think it's happening for a while. Yeah. Especially in Toronto. Oh, my gosh. Just starting to learn that stuff and understand that stuff, I think it starts to shift. Your understanding of it no longer becomes so tied to your internal self worth and it starts to be like, no, this is the mess up system that we live in. Like, you literally have no other choice than to make sure you are charging what you need to charge to survive. Yeah. Especially if you're an entrepreneur. Right. This is obviously like with that context, if you're working for someone else, that becomes a whole another conversation. But especially for an entrepreneur who felt really sticky about being like, oh, these are my rates. Yeah. I think that ties back into what you mentioned at the beginning, too, of your dad's work and trading time and your physical body for money. And when you're an entrepreneur and you're charging, it's, like so much more than the hours of work or the physical work that you're putting in. And there's so much that goes into equipment, like employees, if you have them, like services or subscriptions that you have to pay for for your business and the hours of education and experience and learning that you've put in, there's so much more that sometimes people don't see that goes into your pricing that has nothing to do with trading your actual time. It's like basically your whole life leading up to it, and that's all worth charging for. And then, like you said, all the services that you need to pay for in order to survive and keep your business running. Yeah. I'm really curious. If you're comfortable sharing, what would you charge for a similar project today? Like the one that you charge $5,000 for, like $20,000? Yeah. Okay. Easily. Oh, my goodness. Are you kidding me? Easily. She got a really good deal. Yeah. I think the other thing, too, is I had all these beliefs about acceptable pricing, and the person that hired me for that makes over a million dollars in revenue a year. And I felt sticky charging $5,000. Right? Yeah. It's very different, too, when you realize there's also a difference between where you get your money from and if you're someone who is profiting off of people being marginalized and people not getting paid enough, versus if it's corporations and other pieces and people who have the ability to actually and should be paying you what you're worth. Yeah. That's why a large part of my business has shifted towards brand deals and brand partnerships because I'm like, this is a way that these large corporations can pay me and compensate me fairly for my work, and then I can provide free financial education to the people that need it instead of charging for coaching and stuff like that. So I very much agree. I think let's take the money from the corporations. Okay. And then you have the time and energy to give to the people you want to give back to. Yeah, 100%. Okay. So for all the listeners who are business owners or who are wanting to start their own business, what systems do you think that you need to know how to navigate to be a successful entrepreneur? I think you need to know how your business affects your personal on a financial level as well as on a capacity level. I also think you need to know and understand the humanity of people, because I think it's really easy when you get sucked into entrepreneurship to get sucked into capitalism and these ideas of productivity. And eventually, if you're the kind of entrepreneur or business owner that builds a team and meets other people and are paying other people, it's really easy to get sucked into, like getting hourly work or having other people on your own team getting exhausted and feeding into that like really toxic work culture. So I think you have to really understand and know those things and know the values that you want to hold. At the end of the day, will you be happy with the person that you are? And if you understand the systems that we live in and financial literacy between also like businesses and corporations versus you may be on your individual level and what you want to see happen for you as an individual and kind of working through that together. I think it's really important. None of it's easy, all of it is nuanced, but I think those are the biggest things for me. And sometimes you need reality checks too. Like, right now is the least I have ever worked in my business because I have a health priority that I need to prioritize. And again, really taking the time on a constant basis, especially if you're like an owner of a business or you are aspiring to be a full time entrepreneur, remembering why you're doing what you're doing and for what space. Yeah, I love it. I think that's so important. Not always, but I very often go back to my why and have to remind myself of why am I trying to build what I'm trying to build and why am I doing this? What message am I trying to share? Like, what impact am I trying to have? I think that's really important to revisit because I know myself. Like, I do find myself getting caught up in the entrepreneurial space and in the capitalist system and thinking about what my next program or course or how I'm going to make money. And thinking about that instead of the bigger point of my business, which is like the impact that I want to have and the message that I want to give is more important than the money that I'm making through it. So I think that's really important and great advice for anyone listening who has their own business or want to start their own business. And I know we've talked a little bit about financial literacy and how important that is and that it is something that unfortunately none of us are taught in school and the typical education systems, which it should be in there. But what financial concepts or understanding would you suggest are like important ones to start with when starting or running your business that you have to pay taxes? I hate taxes. No, but for real, it was really funny because the first year I really made revenue, I was not equipped to understand what a tax bill would look like at the end of the year and putting that aside. And I remember talking to my parents and my mom was like, yeah, we were screwed the first year too. We had no idea how common that actually is of really understanding. Okay, just because you're earning this much in your top line revenue? Are you actually putting aside at minimum 20% for your tax bill? And do you have that? And if you don't actually have just really that idea of how many months of the runway do you have? If you don't have runway? Like, do you have access to any sort of operational cash flow to keep going and understanding the concept of cash flow because it's a very different conversation to take a look at. Okay. What are my monthly revenue? Like, how many sales am I closing versus what is my actual cash flow for the month? And are my sales meeting what my cash flow needs to be? Do I still have extra to put aside? It just starts to take me like a while to get there. It's a lot. Yeah, it is a lot. But again, at the same time, I talk about this with one of my best friends who also has her own marketing agency. And she says, we weren't ready for it before. Sometimes depending on where you are in your business, you have to actually start slowly diving into these financial conversations, but like, making sure that it's on your radar to develop and further your understanding of that because it's how people can also take advantage of your knowledge or absence of knowledge if you haven't had access to that. Yeah. So to summarize, put at least 20% to 35% away for your taxes. Learn from both of us, because I also did not know what's happening at the very beginning. And yeah, I always suggest having an emergency fund for your business as well as your personal life. So, like you said, if something is happening in your business, if you're not bringing in income, can you keep your business running? Do you have money to keep your business running at least like a little float there to protect you? And I'll also add that something I wish I did from the very beginning is keeping my business finances completely separate. So I was operating as like a sole proprietor at the beginning. So technically, you don't need to have a business bank account. And I was like, mixing my business and with my personal income because I was working a part time job at the time, too. And even if you're going to use most of that business income to pay yourself, I still very much recommend having it in a separate account where you can organize it. And even if you're making like $25 a month, start doing it and getting in the habit. And then as your business grows, it'll be so much easier to handle it rather than waiting until you're drowning in it and you're like, oh, shit, I need to look at this. Amazing. Okay. So how has your identity and culture influenced the way that you run your business? I think my identity and culture has influenced the way I run my business in some ways. Now that I have a team I'm very conscious of things like actually knowing what is important to make people feel like they belong from cultural holidays and context and all of that stuff. And then on the flip side, for me as a person, because I also have a content creator and I work in that space, my culture is so tied to how I show up online, so it's inherently a part of my business. Yeah. Speaking of which, I just saw your ad for your cultural calendar, and I'm 100% going to download it because I was like, this is amazing. I've never seen a resource like this before that was created. So I'm excited. That was why I created it, because I'm like, everything is just based on Western ideologies of what's considered important. And I'm like, well, normal New Year is important to me. And lunar New Year for other cultures and certain days that have really important historic content for different communities. So that was a huge part of I actually initially created that so that we could foster that sense of belonging inside of the space I wanted to create for my team. Yeah, I think that's amazing. And then I was like, well, everyone should really be using this. Yeah. So if you're listening, Jetty has an awesome resource that is like, it's a content calendar. The inclusive content calendar. Yeah. Gives you a lot of holidays that are, like you mentioned, never included or not very often included in a lot of content calendars. And so you can be just really more inclusive in your business and with your employees and in your content and celebrate those other holidays that are super important to a lot of people. So, yeah, it's really awesome and it's a very affordable price. So if you're listening, go check it out. Highly recommend. I'm going to get it today. Okay. So second to last question. What advice would you give folks who identify similarly to you or have been on the similar path as you in regards to embracing their identity within their finances? For anyone who's a child of immigrants especially, really find ways to spend time unpacking the complexity around security that so often immigrant parents want for us. The true reason why so many immigrant parents, especially in the South Asian or Asian communities, are like, doctor, lawyer, engineer, is not necessarily because of the prestige of those jobs, but because of the security that is perceived to come with it. So I think the more you can spend some time and what is security actually look like for you, irrespective of what your family or the people in your culture may perceive. And how do you want that to show up, the easier it gets to navigating the complex feelings of pressure, of feeling guilty for not doing what someone might tell you. That's at least what helped me a lot. Yeah. I love it. Amazing. So much. Good advice in this podcast episode. So last question for you. How has money changed your life? It always it changed my life when I didn't have access to it because I really am connected to how messed up the system we live in is. It's changed my life when I understood that it was made up. It has changed my life when I was able to get so many opportunities because of what finally having access to capital gave me changed my life when I realized no matter what, you still sometimes don't have enough like the world is set up to make you feel that way. It's also changed my life in realizing the idea of who is afforded. What to touch on this briefly, because I know our listeners are probably coming towards the end of this podcast, but in navigating the health journey that I am more consciously on, I've been on for the last eight years, but more consciously on in the last month. Even health is not afforded quite literally to a lot of people. The very thing that you think is the basics of what you need to literally live. It's not something that is affordable to not just certain people, but a lot of people, I would argue with the majority of people houses not necessarily afforded to them so impacted me in all those ways. Yeah. So let's dismantle some stuff. Let's change the systems. Let's unfortunately work within them, but be hyper critical of them. And let's not get stuck in the mindset that money is the answer to all of it. Yes, I'm in awe of this whole episode. Thank you so much for being on here. Thank you for sharing so much of your story, for being vulnerable and open about all these topics. I know it's not fun and always easy to talk about money and so I just appreciate you being open about your own journey. And I know that the listeners are probably all dying along with me right now of like how impactful and incredible this episode was. So thank you, Jenny, for being here and for your time. And thank you for having me. This is great. If you're listening, send me a message. Connect. Tell me what you needed to hear. Yes, that leads me to my last point, which is can you tell the listeners where they can find you? Yes, find me on Instagram. Just ask Jenny. It is J-U-S-T-A-S-K-J-E-N-N-Y. Amazing. Okay, so I will link that down below if let's just want to go check that out. I'll also link down below your business as well. So you can check out Jenny's photography videography business, which is incredible. And yeah, definitely check out the resource I mentioned and all of the other resources that Jenny has available. And that's it for this episode. Definitely. If you liked it, make sure to share a screenshot of the episode on social media. Tell us what you loved about it. Tag Jenny share it with people so that more people can hear this conversation. Thanks for having me. This is gay. What an incredible conversation. As always, I've included all of the links to find Jenny down in the show notes and I've also included the link to the inclusive content calendar. If you're interested in checking that out. Jenny is also currently in the middle of her road trip across Canada with her husband so I highly recommend following along their journey and showing her some support. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, we'd love it if you would share a screenshot on your social media and tell us what you loved about it. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can subscribe to the show rate and leave a review on Apple podcast or Spotify. I will be donating $1 for every review left in the first six months to organizations that our podcast guests have chosen. Thank you for listening and remember to Keep Finance Queerd.