On this week’s episode, guest Michelle Jalali (she/her) walks through how to start your diversity, equity and inclusion journey to find your social justice voice and make an impact. Michelle is a trauma-informed DEI consultant and coach who works with small businesses, nonprofits and higher education institutions to dismantle oppressive systems and practices so they can create cultural change and build connections and community.
After listening, you’ll have a better understanding of how to:
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On this week’s episode, guest Michelle Jalali (she/her) walks through how to start your diversity, equity and inclusion journey to find your social justice voice and make an impact. Michelle is a trauma-informed DEI consultant and coach who works with small businesses, nonprofits and higher education institutions to dismantle oppressive systems and practices so they can create cultural change and build connections and community.
After listening, you’ll have a better understanding of how to:
FOLLOW + SUPPORT JALALI:
JALALI’S IG: https://www.instagram.com/jalaliconsulting/
GET $50 FREE WITH NEO: https://join.neo.cc/ellycefulmore
Join the Queerd Community:
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/ellyce.fulmore/
TIKTOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@queerd.co
WORK WITH ME: https://ellycefulmore.com/
Ready to take control of your money? Well I’ve got you covered with my mini course library. Priced at $47 each, these mini courses are an awesome (and affordable!) way to start taking control of your financial future.
https://ellycefulmore.com/mini-courses
Hi and welcome back to this week's episode of Keep Finance Queerd, a podcast that's putting the personal back in personal finance through complex and nuanced guest interviews and solo episodes. I'm your host, Ellyce Fulmore, and today I'm so excited to be joined by Michelle Jalali, informed diversity, equity and inclusion consultant and coach. I actually work with Jalali on retainer. She is my Dei consultant. She is absolutely incredible and so I could not be more excited to have her on the podcast. Michelle was born in Canada into an Indian and Jamaican family. Education, innovation, multiculturalism, spicy food, and great music run through her veins. Within her work as a consultant and coach, she focuses on traumainformed, Dei identity related healing and social justice education, and human centric facilitation. I know that so many of you listening are going to be able to relate to just the extreme heaviness and sadness and anger that we've all been feeling as a result of so many things that are happening around the world, and especially of the most recent mass shootings that have occurred in the US. I just feel like lately I've been feeling more and more helpless, like, what can I do in these situations? What is going to make the biggest impact? How can I help? And it feels sometimes like such an uphill battle and it's hard to know where to start and it's overwhelming. And that's exactly why I wanted to bring Jolly onto the podcast to talk about how to really start, like what you should do. So on this week's episode, Jalali is going to walk through how to start your diversity, equity and inclusion journey to find your social justice voice and make an impact. This is a different style of guest episode than we've ever done before, but it's such a powerful episode that I guarantee you're going to want to take notes from. After listening to this episode, you'll have a better understanding of how to get involved in social justice movements in an intentional way how to start integrating diversity, equity and inclusion work into your life. And also, don't worry, we're going to define those so you are super clear on what they mean. You'll have a better understanding on how to navigate social media and Dei work and how to incorporate those. What are Dei best practices on social media and how to use your money to support causes that matter to you. So get your notebook ready. Get. Comfy this is Social Justice Impact and Money with Jalali. Hi there. Hi. Hi. I'm Sydney. My name is Rebecca. I'm an Autistic Day woman. I'm Jane. I'm a first generation Latino. I am a single mom and a survivor of domestic abuse. I am an ADHD plus sized millennial on the autism spectrum and Add, creating other problems in itself. Even though I bring in decent money, I struggle with Dang ahead of everything. I am now struggling to pay off my debt, my traumatic brain injury means that it's hard for me to concentrate long enough to sort out my finances. The hardest time managing my finances. My parents were never able to teach me. I love my Starbucks habit, and I'm not giving it up. Hi, Jalali, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. I am so excited to be here. This is going to be so good for everyone who doesn't know I work with Jalali. She's my Dei consultant. I worked with her on retainer. So, yeah, we know each other pretty well from working together. And this just is so exciting to me to have you share all of your value or a little bit of your value, I guess, because it's only an hour long episode to all of the listeners. Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. I love working with you and anyone who knows Lisa, like, she is literally the best person in the world. So it is really exciting to connect with you in this realm as well. Okay, so for the listeners right now who are not familiar with you, could you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do, and your journey to get to where you are right now? Totally. So what's up, everyone? My name is Michelle Jalali. She her pronouns and I run Jalali Consulting, LLC. I know it's a very creative name, and really what I do is all things diversity, equity, and inclusion work. I do it from a very traumainformed lens, which really means that I focus on the way that we all show up in life and our lived experiences coming from a very human centric approach with my education. And so I was actually born in Toronto, Canada, moved to South Florida, then moved across the country. And now I'm living in California. And I've been doing this work for quite some time with a background in events and higher education, and then decided, you know what? I love this work so much. I love working with people and helping them to feel more confident in themselves and their own identities, to really feel seen and valued in that process and to educate folks. And so I decided to start my own business. And like I said, here we are and I'm doing this amazing work with other small business owners who are doing the damn thing. I work with higher education institutions still, and really wonderful organizations that are committed to Dei work. So that's a little bit about me. Not that exciting now that I say it out loud. Like Canada, Florida, California, and a lot of different work experience as well in different fields and industries. So I think it's super interesting. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I will. But I think the work that you do, obviously, is so important. And that's why I wanted to have you on the podcast. And this episode is going to be a little bit different than our usual guest episodes because I wanted to use this time to really shed some light on what Di means and how you can incorporate that into your daily life. And obviously, I immediately thought of Jalali to come on and share because she is just such an expert on all things. And of course, like you mentioned, coming from a trauma formed background is really important. So, yeah, I'm excited to do a little bit of a different format for everyone listening. This is going to be the type of episode where you want pen and paper or your notes up or something, because I'm sure you're going to want to take notes for this. I am, like, very excited to be here, especially because I think sometimes Dei can feel so overwhelming and the concept of, okay, I know what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean. What does that mean for me personally? So the fact we get to talk about it today is, like, perfect timing, especially with everything that's going on in the world. Yeah, I completely agree. So let's start with kind of basic definition questions. I'm sure there's probably a couple of people listening who are maybe a little bit unsure of what Dei actually means and diversity, equity, and inclusion. So what do the values of Dei actually mean? What do they actually look like? Sure. Absolutely. Great question. So the way that I view diversity, equity, and inclusion, while a lot of folks view them as, like, buzzwords and things that you just hear. Right. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is oftentimes the way that we value people, essentially the way that we value humanity. And when you kind of come from that lens, it makes the concepts a lot easier to place value on the diversity. Right. We're thinking about the diversity of thought, the differences of lived experiences, the way that people show up their identities. When we talk about equity, we're really starting to think about how can we make sure that we are being fair, that we are making sure that folks have what they need, that resources are getting to the people that need them, and that we are making sure we're doing that in an appropriate and fair manner. And then we talk about inclusion. It's like, okay, we want to make sure that folks feel like, yes, we value, quote, unquote diversity, but we really value what you think and feel, and we want you to feel safe and secure in these spaces, too. And so inclusion work is really centered in how do we make sure that the folks that are in the space feel like they want to be there, number one and number two, that we continue to value how folks show up in that space and celebrate that. So I always feel like when we talk about values such a cheesy word, sometimes people are like, oh, core values, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, as humans, obviously, we do have values. Right. Values can range from anything. They can be something that brings you joy. It can be something that you just find important. It could be something that's important to someone else that you care about, even. And I define values as almost being desired qualities that give your life some sort of meaning. And when I think about how diversity, equity, and inclusion could be valued from the base based baseline, I view it as the way that diversity shows up for us in our lives, the way that it makes us happy, the way that we commit to equity and the way that we speak and the things we invest in and the people we talk to. And honestly, the way that inclusion kind of informs how we celebrate our communities surrounding us and the ones that we're a part of and maybe the ones that we're not a part of, too. And so it's almost like the idea that Dei values are all about creating an actual culture that really prioritizes change and joy and inclusion and safety versus the surface level buzzwords of being like, oh, I care about Dei. So that's how I think of the base of what does Dei value actually mean? Yeah. Thank you for that explanation. I love that. And I think that the inclusion part of it especially is so important and something that's often forgotten because I think it's easy to look at the diversity part and be like, OK, how can we make, like, this workplace more diverse? And that's when we hear about a lot of the like, oh, I feel like I'm like the token black hire or the token, like, clear, higher things like that, because it's like they're making steps to be more diverse, but then they're not making steps to make it an actually inclusive environment for that person. So I'm glad that you emphasize that point of safety and everything, too, because I think that's often overlooked in a lot of corporate culture. Oh, my God, we can talk about that for hours. Okay. Don't even get me started on corporate culture. But I will say just like a little side note that, yeah, for sure you want to have all these great diversity hires. Sounds really good. Looks really good. But if you're not going to be taking the steps to retain them in a safe way, then you're not actually creating an inclusive environment for them. So you're so right on that. Yeah, super important. So what would you say to people who don't know where to start in their social justice journeys? Great question. I think that when it comes to the concept of social justice, there are folks who are really at the front line doing the hard work. I consider myself a social justice warrior, not because I'm perfect, but because I'm always trying my very best to put my words into action. But for folks who are starting on their social justice journeys, just like the concept of Dei, man, it can feel really intimidating. And so when I think about social Justice, I think about the way that we want to activate and really implement a just world right for everybody that's around us and for ourselves and for the different communities we're a part of. And if you're just starting out, I think the best approach to really thinking about what can I do? Is thinking about, number one, where would you feel like you can exert your energy outwardly? And then what work do you have to do internally in order to get there? And social justice is all about showing up, and it's all about speaking out, and it's all about being a great ally, and it's all about really finding your kind of activist voice yourself. But if we haven't gotten to the place where we're confident in ourselves or we're still not 100% feeling safe or secure in ourselves and or we have biases that we need to kind of unlearn or unpack, it's really hard to kind of get to the place of jumping into a very hands on journey. So I say that you start off with thinking what's some of the work that I got to do myself, and we all have work to do. Let's be clear, right? I'm always working around my own internal biases, et cetera. That way I can show up authentically and ready when I am ready to jump into that social justice journey. Yeah, 100%. I would say you let me know if you disagree, but I would say that that is part of the social justice journey itself is like doing that inner work and education. I feel like you're still making steps to make the change that you want to make, even just by internally doing stuff like you said before, you're ready to dive into some of the more grassroots kind of organizations that are doing things right on the ground. So that's still a first step. And again, let me know your thoughts on this, but I found that something that really helped me when I was really getting started and social justice thing was focusing on initially issues that really directly impacted me. And then I've been able to expand from there. But it can be really intimidating at the beginning because you're kind of like, okay, how can I help? Like you said, where do I insert myself? How can I actually be helpful and not just be like a random voice and things like that? And so I found directly approaching issues that really impacted me. And then I felt very strongly attached to those, and I felt like I more clearly could voice how I felt and share my opinion. And then as I did more work, I felt more comfortable advocating for other people or for groups that I wasn't a part of. Yeah. And I think that you've done a really fantastic job of modeling that. I always feel like when folks are talking about the social justice journey. I always say it starts with you, right? It starts with your education. It starts with your unlearning. It starts with your learning. It starts with your healing, your ability to really take some time. And sometimes it's sticky time, meaning it feels a little yucky. It feels a little hard, right. But sometimes it's you taking that time to think about your own identity, what you have experienced in your own life, what issues are directly impacting you or indirectly impacting you? And then to your point, it's much easier to start to branch out. When you start thinking about the indirect impact or this issue, it's really triggering me for some reason or it's really activating me for some reason. But I know it's not affecting me directly, but maybe it's affecting a friend of mine, a partner of mine, a family member of mine. That's how you start kind of gaining the confidence, even to your point, to start talking about it. Right. And feeling like, oh, I'm not only passionate about this, but I'm educated on it. And so that's a great start for your social justice journey is really thinking about yourself and doing that work and then outwardly kind of looking to think about how you can play a role in a role that feels authentic and right for you in your own social justice kind of journey and how you want to navigate that as you move forward in that. Yeah. You mentioned the feeling uncomfortable when you kind of start this journey. So I have a kind of a follow up question for that. So what advice would you give? Like when you're starting a social justice journey and you start to feel a lot of that guilt or shame or just like those really uncomfortable feelings, how do you kind of work through that without projecting that onto someone else to do free labor? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I'll start off by saying that there is so much information out right now on the Internet. You have resources and movies and books and all of the places that you can get some really great tangible and real meaning, accurate information on issues that are either directly or indirectly affecting you. So the reason I mentioned that is because I always feel like when there's a level of guilt that comes in or you need to call and other folks to do a little bit of education, I always think it's really a great kind of practice to reevaluate. Do I need to invite somebody else into this space to educate me, or is there any opportunity for me to learn about this elsewhere? So I'm not asking someone else for free labor. So that's like my little Disclaimer. And I know you and I talked about that many times around. What's the best practice for that? But I think in general, that yucky feeling means you're doing something right. It means that you are pushing yourself to the point that you are starting to reevaluate either the way that you have lived, maybe some of your thoughts, maybe some of the feelings you've once had, your biases, maybe even you've done a little bit of healing. And healing we know is also uncomfortable. Right. And so when you're in that space and those feelings start coming up and you're like, it's almost a sense of resistance, I want to pull back from this instead of lean into it. The advice that I will give you all is to continue to lean into it. I always say lean into the discomfort. The more you lean into it, the more you'll realize you can do this. Right. You can continue to show up even when it's hard. You can continue to learn and unlearn in order to really be a part of breaking down systems of oppression that you may not have even realized you were once a part of. Right. And I think that when we continue to sit in that place of discomfort, knowing that there are people who are standing with you in that place too, who are actively trying to do this work as well, it makes it, number one, a little less scary. But number two, it makes it worth it. It makes it worth this journey becomes a little bit more tangibly, something that you can be like, no, I continuously I'm putting in this hard work in order to be the best ally or be the best advocate or show up effectively in all these different spaces. So even though those yucky feelings do come up, number one, know that you're not alone in that. Number two, know that there are folks who do appreciate that you are sitting in that sense of yuckiness because there are folks who have been sitting in discomfort for their entire lives, specifically in the US and Canada. Right. And then on top of that, you are modeling that behavior for others to be like, okay, if they can do that, I can do that, too. And so even though you are feeling that little bit of discomfort, when you start engaging in new conversations, showing up in new spaces, thinking about issues that are either directly or indirectly affecting you, the advice that I can give you and the words that I can give you is that this is important and that you are doing a really great job of trying to do this. And so continue to show up. Continue to show up even when it feels hard. Yes, very good advice. And just to share a bit of my own experience, some of you know this, but I grew up in rural Alberta, and so there's been a lot of unlearning to do there, and I put in a lot of work. But obviously there's like a ton of work still to do. But Jollali can testify to this. I still get a bodily somatic response to my own guilt, like when especially on social media. This has happened while we've been working together. Someone will call me out or call me in on TikTok and mentioned that something I did was harmful or in some way to them. And my body will automatically, like, I start sweating. I start like, my heart's pounding. I want to, like, curl up. I want to run away from the situation, which is like you said, that can be the response that you want to have. But what you really need to do in that moment is lean into it. And that's something that we're still working on together, and I'm still working through that. So just know that it's a lifelong journey and it takes time, but it has gotten a lot better for me because now, although I still have that response, I'm able to take a deep breath and figure out how to respond. Whereas, like, a couple years ago, I would just, like, completely run away from it and just like, delete it and not like, just be sad and cry about it and not do anything and not actually learn from it and show my audience that I've learned from it. So, yeah, it's a journey and you're not alone. I'm with you on the journey. It is such a journey. And I have to just say, even hearing you articulate that, man, I'm so impressed with you and so proud of you because I do remember when we first started working together and it was very much a feeling of guilt and or a little bit of defensiveness, which is completely normal when you're really trying to be a great human. And then all of a sudden you're like, I had a slip up and I feel crushed. And we could talk about social media and the way that affects people in general for hours and hours. That's a whole other episode. So stay tuned. But I do believe that added layer of pressure to show up and be perfect is something that I wish we would talk about more. Because your social justice journey, your ability to really continuously show up, even when it's uncomfortable, is in essence, the first step and the continuous step that you will continuously face while you're on your journey, meaning you'll always be uncomfortable. And so the idea of being perfect all the time doesn't need to be the number one goal. The number one goal should be I'm going to continue to be a good human. I'm going to continue to do my best and know that if I do mess up or have a little bit of a missed up, that I can still do my best to make it right, to make it better and continue moving in that process. And I think that's a really powerful kind of stance to take and one that can be reassuring as well. And just to add to that, for those of you that do use your social media platforms to post about social justice. Things like if you do experience some backlash or you do experience like a slip up, a mess up, you did something that hurt people. I very much understand that instinct to just never talk about things on your social media again. But I really urge you to not do that and to instead go through that uncomfortable time and continue to post because we all need to keep posting. People need to hear what you have to say. And as much as I hate that this exists, there is some truth to for example, white people are just more likely to trust white people. Maybe they're not ready to listen to a black person educate about something. And so it is important that everyone is talking about anti racist issues. It's an important thing because the more people that are talking about it, then the more people we can call into the conversation to get them started, and then they can feel more comfortable to actually learn from the people that they need to learn from. So true. You know what? Honestly, that's such a powerful statement, because one of the pillars of Allyship is continuously being a voice for folks and being a voice with folks and continuously amplifying issues, whether they are affecting you directly or indirectly. And I think one of the things that you just mentioned, which is just so powerful, is that your voice is valid and it's heard often times by a broader audience than mine perhaps, or someone else's. And so when you actively say, I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'd rather retreat, but instead I'm going to continue to show up and address issues, et cetera. That is what a part of allyship is. And I want to encourage you all to remember that if you ever have a slip up and we're going to call it that, because the world's not going to crumble if you make a tiny mistake or don't say something out of ignorance on accident. Right? But you can always apologize. You can always acknowledge, you can always do better. And I want you to hear that from me, someone who does this work all the time to let you know that a part of your social justice journey and a part of the way that you can kind of create core personal values of Dei is to know that it's okay to make a mistake and continuously show up, because that is a part of doing the really good work that you need to do, especially when your voices are amplified on your social media. And I know you always tell me this Jolly, but you will make mistakes. It's kind of inevitable that you're at some point probably going to hurt someone unknowingly not meaning to. It's going to happen because especially when we're learning about different groups that we're not a part of and we don't have that, like direct experience, then it's easier to get it wrong, especially if we're not listening or not really careful. It just happens. It's never going to happen. I think acknowledging that at the very beginning that you're going to mess up at some point and someone is going to get hurt, but knowing you can work through that and that's part of the journey, you're not going to get it right 100% of the time. And yeah, it's so much more important that you do show up and try your best rather than just not do anything at all. Yes, absolutely. Unintentional harm. Those are the terms I use. I say we will cause unintentional harm sometimes, especially when you're speaking about or speaking for and or addressing issues that you might be uncomfortable addressing or you're working or talking to populations that you don't belong to or you're exploring different identities of yourself that you haven't explored before. Right. You can sometimes cause unintentional harm. And that is what I call work through Abel, which I know is not like an actual word, but it's work through, which means that if you're a good person and you care about humans and you've continuously showed up as the purest form of yourself acknowledging a mistake and apologizing and moving forward, we can do that. That's a part of the journey to your point. And that's totally fine. So I appreciate you kind of bringing that up as well. Have you heard of skip the dishes? While the same Canadian founders that disrupted food delivery are now disrupting finance with Neo Financial, Neo has an industry leading cashback credit card where you can get rewarded at thousands of partners in your area. I personally use the Neomaster card and I love how much cash back you can get. Use the link in the show notes to get $50 for signing up and have your digital card in three minutes or less. Obviously, there's a lot going on. There has been a lot going on for the last two years with the pandemic, with the murder of George Floyd, all of the BLM protests, what's happening right now with the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade. I feel like every month there's like another thing that's happening, and it's very overwhelming. And sometimes it can feel like, okay, what can I even do in this situation? So what would be, I guess kind of like three different levels of the person who's just starting out on their social justice issue. What can they do to kind of start the people that are kind of been involved for a little while but still kind of new to the space? What can they be doing at these times? And someone who's like, full on social justice warrior, what are kind of like some ways that we can get involved? Ok, yes, I'm going to process, but here's what I'm thinking right off the top of my head. Okay. When I think about beginning human walking into a space being like, I want to do something and I don't know where to start. I think that there are kind of three starting points that you can kind of have. Right. You can start off with what we already spoke about, which is really starting to examine your personal beliefs, really start to think about your personal habits. Right. Who do you invest in, who do you surround yourself with? Who do you want to be? Right. Maybe some of that bias that we realize we learned growing up in our home and we need to start addressing it instead of just looking past it. Right. That is a great place to start. The second thing would be to really start educating yourself about social justice issues. And when I say educate yourself, I'm talking about really starting to think about where did I learn the messaging that I've learned? What issues are currently affecting me, right. Me, my family, my friends, my partners, etc. And then the third thing I think about is what is happening locally. If I'm just starting off, I might not be thinking about flying across the country to go March in a protest, but I might be thinking about what is occurring in my life, in my town, around me, in my surrounding area. And I think that that is a really kind of tangible, yet not super overwhelming place to start if you are starting off baby steps. Right. In your social justice journey. I think if you are kind of that middle person where you're like, okay, I am ready to take the next step to your point. I think this is a great opportunity to really utilize the power of social media. Right. Social media platforms touch global. Right. They have global access. Right. So what does that look like to provide resources, resourceful and accurate information, to really share personal experiences, to amplify voices of folks that are being directly affected by X, Y and Z? That is a good step, too, right? Because now you're saying I can utilize something that's mine and take a stance and be kind of a platform for other folks to engage in the conversation as well and really start thinking about, okay, that's how I'm showing up on social media. I've done the research as to what's happening in my local areas. How can I start showing up in those spaces, too? That can be the most uncomfortable thing. It's very easy to do our research. Right. It's a whole other thing to actively show up in those spaces. And of course, that can include things like writing letters to local officials that can look like going to community based spaces for allies and or for specific groups so that you can discuss these issues and what to do about them that can look like creating campaigns locally. So that would be my suggestion for step two. And then when I think about step three. Right, we're talking about people who are like, I'm ready to rock. Let's do this thing. I'm so past, like the nerves and I'm just ready to really channel that interaction. Right. That inner social justice warrior. This is when you start thinking about what does it look like for me to really start showing up for things that not only would potentially make me uncomfortable, but that I know are going to create maybe additional attention either nationally, locally, et cetera. Can you attend demonstrations? Protests, obviously. I always say Disclaimer, please make sure you're being safe. If you are going to protest, make sure that you are taking care of yourself and that you're going with groups and folks know where you are at all times. But what does it mean to take up opportunities to go into spaces and speak publicly about issues that are affecting you or the people that you care about? What does it mean to say, I'm going to make it a practice to volunteer for different foundations or organizations that are doing the work that I want to do and or are doing the work that I can't do. I want to make sure that I'm continuously showing up and volunteering and dedicating my time and energy. Because typically when it comes to social justice organizations, a lot of the time, manpower is what is really in. I say manpower lightly. I mean, human power, right? Woman power, whatever. That is also a need, right? We just need folks in those spaces. And then, of course, when you are ready, you start thinking about if I have the capacity, what would it mean for me to donate financially to organizations to keep them running, to continue to think about folks that are actively doing the work around financial health, environmental health, accountability, work for political parties, et cetera. So you're basically all three levels, the starting point, the middle point, the super awesome advance point, they're all awesome because all the things that you all are doing at any stage of your social justice journey is essentially actively working to break down systems of oppression just by doing the internal external with a friend, without a friend showing up, still doing the education. All of those pieces are really what creates major change. So no matter where you're at in your journey, there's a way to start thinking about how you can begin doing that work. Yes. Oh, my gosh. So many good tips. I feel like I have a million things to say, but I wanted to kind of share my kind of inner guidelines for some of the social justice work. So in that middle zone, something that I've kind of learned from listening to people and from my own experience is likely only speak about something if it's either directly affected me or if I'm speaking about ways to help or resources or what I'm doing and how other people can do it, too. And I think it's always kind of like, from what I've seen best practice to default to those people who like sharing and elevating the voice of people who are directly experiencing it. So something like Roe v. Wade, there's a lot of women that can directly speak to that and how it affects them or how it affects someone they know. And that's something that experience is really important. But maybe other issues like Black Lives Matter protests and things like that, if you're white, then obviously you can't speak on your own experience because you're not black. So that would be a case where you can elevate the voices of people who are talking directly about their experience. And then if you are going to talk about it, like I said, I feel like not coming on and talking about how it makes you feel and instead using that space to talk about maybe what you're doing and how other people can do that, too. And then in terms of the far end of it and the helping out people, I think my entrepreneurial brain kind of goes to like, what could I create that will help? Which I've learned is very much not the thing to do, because there's already people that have entire, like, organizations, foundations, charities going that are doing a way better job than I would be doing. And it's like, way more impactful for me to just join them and help them. Like you said, provide human power to the organization rather than trying to start something else. And it basically just takes away resources from that group who already is trying to do something. So I just thought I would share that because I think it's overwhelming. Sometimes it can feel very overwhelming. And I think that you made such a great point, because when I speak about the middle kind of section in general, right when we're talking about amplifying issues that either directly affect us or indirectly affect us, what I mean by that is oftentimes the issues that are a war on me, my identities, my family, the folks that I care about, et cetera. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to be passionate or care about issues that are not affecting me directly or et cetera. But what is very and I love kind of this point is that when we talk about amplifying voices of others, what you're doing is you're removing yourself from the center of the conversation and saying, oh, this is so sad. This is horrible. It's breaking my heart. Well, we've all kind of established that that is the feeling globally. We're all kind of in a collective state of mourning about X, Y and Z. And so now it's our responsibility to say instead of me amplifying the way that I feel, I want to make sure that I'm amplifying ways that we can help with things that we can do, the voices of the folks that are being directly affected. And when we do that, we can do that in many different ways. It's through creating, which I am so proud of you and so impressed by you for creating podcasts that amplify the experience of the folks who hold different identities and have different lived experiences than yourself. It can be through inviting folks on Instagram live to just talk to just be right. It's amplifying businesses, minoritized businesses we're talking about. What does it mean for me to support a black owned artist, artist or black owned business? What does it also mean for me to say, like, hey, I want recommendations on my social media, specifically, who has recommendations? Drop people in the comments. That's expanding not only a network, but it's creating a larger conversation and it's showing, hey, I'm trying to actively not just amplify issues, but amplify the voices and the experiences of the folks being affected by it so that we can all work together to create that change. And I think you would do that wonderfully. But I think in general, when you said it can feel very intimidating, that's a great rule of thumb. How can I make sure to decenter myself from the conversation recenter the voices and experiences of those who are being directly affected if it's not me and continue to have almost an action plan of how can we continue to show up and support folks that are being directly affected, even if it makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable? I think that's very wonderful. So it's a really good move. Thank you. And thank you for sharing just all of that extra clarification. I think it's so important. Amy, you just, like spur my brain, but you just made me think of something else. When you're talking about amplifying those voices is like a great first step, especially if you're just starting out is like looking at who you're following. And I know that for me, I actually can be way better with this on Instagram because I rarely use Instagram anymore and I've never cleared it since. I've never cleared followers since I started it in like 2012 or whatever it is. So I know I'm not as good on Instagram in that front. But with TikTok, I saw this TikTok video of someone saying, Go to your liked videos and look at the diversity that exists in your liked videos, like who is speaking, what identities do they hold, where do they live in the world? What's their socioeconomic status and things like that? And that really just got me thinking so much. And that's something that I've been really aware of when I'm on TikTok is like, whose voices am I hearing? Like who's showing up on my for you page? And if I'm seeing a lot of the same thing, it's like, how can I shake that up and see different people and hear from different people? So I would urge everyone who's kind of the great place to start is just like going to your TikTok, following your Instagram following, and seeing whose content you're actually consuming. And if that's coming from diverse voices, because that's a pretty easy first step that you can take to start broadening your horizon of who you hear from. Yeah, that's so true. One of the things that I'd love to mention that I didn't mention before, and you kind of brought this up for me. That's a great starting point. I called them personal audits. And basically what you're doing is you're continuously checking in with yourself. Right. And so it's like I'm checking in with myself around my personal bias. What harm have I maybe unintentionally placed on someone else, et cetera, but you're also doing those audits around? Who have I been hanging out with recently? What media have I been taking recently? Like, who are my followers? What videos am I viewing? What are the demographics of the folks that I'm continuously supporting? Why right? Where is this coming from and how can I create those changes? And I do believe that that is something that we continuously get to do, especially for many of us who live oftentimes in an online world, because that's how we connect and network with folks. When I first started my business, I'll tell you all kind of a funny story started my business, and majority of the folks that were following me and that I were following, they all fit a very specific profile. They were all CIS, hetero white women who were in coaching industry, and all their profiles looked the same. They were like pink and bubbly. And I was like, I do not fit in here. How is this happening and what was happening? Right? I was feeling unaligned with my business. So I'm like, I don't really work with these folks, nor do I typically are not really donating to them or donate my time to them, etc. For. But I did feel very disconnected and unaligned. And so one of the things I remember when I first started my business was like, I got to do some unfollowing and I need to start really thinking about the folks that I want to see, who do I want to see on my stuff? And anytime I feel like my algorithm is getting a little messed up and I'm getting skewed or I'm only seeing certain things I do, I check in with myself. And that's a great reminder for me to be like, okay, what shows have I been watching recently? What organizations have I been supporting recently? Where have I been shopping recently? Have I been doing anything that I really need to just kind of check in with myself and be like, you let that slip one too many times, reel it back in. And I think those are great ways to kind of continuously do those personal audits and give yourself permission to do that as well. So I just wanted to go on my little tandem right there. No, I love that story. And this has inspired me to go and audit my Instagram because I know that hasn't been done in a long time. And yeah, I grew up in, like I said, rural Alberta, where there was literally one black family in the whole town, Alberta. It was 98% Caucasian. So that's where I grew up around. And then I went to University, and the program that I was in was Kinesiology. And it was a small program of like 150, maybe 200 students. And the majority of them are going on to Med school. And the majority of them are also coming from sports background. So typically it's wealthier families that can afford to put their children in hockey all the way up to University and things like that. So that was also probably 95% white folks as well. Even though the school I went to was quite diverse, that particular program was kind of like a wealthy program. That was the background that a lot of people came from, which just happened to be, you know, more white folks come from more affluent, affluent, affluent. Anyways, I still have to make sure that I'm actively seeking out different people. So I'm sure there's people listening that you'll probably resonate with what I'm saying and be like, yeah, that's been my experience, too. And even from, like, not just race, but like, if we're talking about, like, you know, all my friends have been straight growing up. And that's another thing, too. Like, my small town, I have never seen, like, a gay couple out in public holding hands. I've never witnessed that. Even now when I go back and visit, I remember there was one girl in high school who had a girlfriend, but they were long distance, so I never saw them in person. That was like the only exposure to that. So it's like you surround yourself with these people and you don't get to pick them because you're growing up and you're in school and you can't select really who you're in your town. So that when you're older, it's like you have to actively go out and seek those people. So I'm going to do an Instagram audit inspiring me. Even though I don't use the app too much, I think it's still important. So, yes, that was, again, a tangent. No, that's okay. I love that for you, because I think we can always check in with ourselves and check in with the things that we're integrating and who we're seeing and who we're supporting and all of that. So this is a great opportunity for all of us to do it. So I'm here with you on that. Okay. So we've already gave so many examples about different ways that we can get involved. And I know that one of the things that we mentioned was donating. And I hear this a lot when I talk about different organizations that people can donate to and how they can get involved. I see this on, like, TikTok, too. And there's people that just don't have the financial means to donate to those causes. So what are some maybe like low energy for the people that have busy lives or working, have children and don't have the financial means to directly support an organization. What are some other ways that they can get involved that don't involve money? Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a great question because for many of us, we don't necessarily always have excess financial kind of pieces that we can donate to organizations, but we still want to be actively involved. And I think pretty much everything that I went over outside of actively showing up. And the reason I say that is because that does require energy. And for many folks who are busy, that might not be feasible. But I think look for ways that you can join campaigns that are virtual. There are a ton of Facebook campaigns and Instagram campaigns and things of that sort where you can actively share information, which is really doing some awesome work, especially for organizations that are asking for that type of exposure and or support for awareness. I think you get to really also think of kind of unique ways for you to create a stream, whether you run a business or you look for end of year kind of donations for holiday time, et cetera. Create a stream for yourself around. Like, if I know that only once a year, I have the capacity to donate materials or donate time instead, what would that organization be? And that takes me back to thinking about which organization do you feel most connected to, whether it's local, global, et cetera, national. I think the biggest thing that you can do that does not require money is and will always be to amplify in any capacity that you can to amplify issues. And what I mean by that is if you don't have social media, where can you have those conversations in the workplace, with your friends, with your families, et cetera, that, in essence, is doing the good and the hard work of creating space for conversations that people sometimes run away from, as we know. And so if you're saying that's one of the hardest work with people that you care about, that is the hardest work. Right. And so if you're thinking to yourself, I don't have the capacity or the money or the time to either be out, like volunteering, showing up for protests, I don't have the money to be like donating to organizations. I still want to be creating change in this world. Start small. Start with the people around you. Start with the folks that you interact with. That has honestly been some of the biggest kind of pillars of change that we've seen in our communities is when you realize that you can have strong influence and or just engage in difficult conversations with folks surrounding you. I think it's really powerful. You can create new awareness, new ideas, new perspectives. That's exactly what I would say to you. It's such hard work, like having those conversations with your family and friends that are closest to you, especially when there's that risk of finding out. Oh, this person doesn't. I mean, I guess it's not really it's a risk, but it's not. It ends up being a good thing in the end. But it's like you might find out that that person doesn't have the same values as you. And that can be like really hard conversation to have. And I've had a lot of friendships that have been altered and that will never be the same because of those conversations. But yeah, you're so right that they're so important to have and to step into that uncomfortableness. And I'll share something that I like to do in my family. So we have a group chat. And whenever there's, like, something going on, I'm very lucky that my parents are very open minded. They do a lot of work themselves all the time and read a lot, very educated and are doing the work alongside me and my sister. But we will share stuff in the group chat, like articles and resources. And I found that's like a great way because sometimes my parents still don't know about certain things going on, especially if they're more like trending in the TikTok space and maybe not like global news, but we can share those things and I can educate my parents. I'm like, here's how you use pronouns and this is what it means to be non binary or here's an article on this or here's some things like that. So that's another like, easy way to start, too. Send things to your parents and tell them to read it, see how they respond. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's so true. One of the things that I wish I could give like 100 disclaimers all the time because I think all these conversations and all these actions are very nuanced. So let me go ahead and just say that. And I acknowledge that a lot of this is difficult. I hope that I don't make it sound too simplified and say, just go start a conversation because I know that in itself can be hard. Right. And so that's why I say sometimes that is the hardest work that you'll be doing, because that's the starting point. That can be very scary. And so one of the things that I want to also acknowledge and kind of just mention is that a part of doing social justice work at any capacity is taking care of yourself. And I mean that like from my gut, literally, if you could see me right now, I'm saying this with a straight face because it's very true. When you are having hard conversations, you need time to heal. When you are showing up for spaces and putting, you know, exerting your body, your energy, your mind, you need time to rest. When you are doing some unlearning and you are sitting in a place of discomfort, you need some time to kind of recalibrate and re energize so you can continuously show up even when it's hard. And so a big part of social justice work is prioritizing care and prioritizing a little bit of space for yourself to have Grace, to know that while you are kind of setting expectations for yourself around mistakes and showing up, that you're also giving yourself the Grace to manage those expectations. And at the same time, while you're setting expectations for yourself to show up and be the greatest social justice warrior that you can be, they're also managing those expectations around how much you can do and acknowledging those limitations and your capacity, because that is vital. This is a lifelong journey. If you burn out in the first five months, it's going to be very hard to feel motivated to continue to move through. So I say that on all levels around engaging in hard conversations, showing up on social media and all those things. While I say continuously show up, you got this. Don't stop. Also, give yourself time to rest and to recalibrate and to heal and do all those things, too. I appreciate you saying that and emphasizing that that's probably one of the biggest things I've learned from you is like that rest and taking care of yourself and your mental health is so important. And like you said, if you burn out, then you're not helping anyone. And I think that I had that idea that I had to keep going all the time because I felt guilty if I wasn't, because I'm like some people live with this every day, so I need to keep going. But then it doesn't end up doing anyone any good. If I burn out and I'm a shell of a human, and then I can't talk about anything, right? Look, half ass advocacy, half ass allyship, not that ideal, and it's not intentional, but folks are tired, and this is a new journey for everyone. And so you're right. While people live with this life and this skin and this experience every single day for you to be the best ally, advocate, social justice warrior, somebody who values Dei as something more than buzzwords, you still got to make sure that you can show up. And showing up also includes saying, I need to take a nap or I need to top out, or I need to do a little bit of reevaluating, or I need to be with my community so that I can be refueled. So however you define self care, you do what you got to do. But I wanted to make sure I put that out there because a part of being a great social justice warrior is acknowledging when you need a little bit of a break so important. Okay, so we're going to switch gears a little bit here now and kind of go back to those values of Dei. So I would love to know. And I'm sure the Listers would love to know, too. How do you celebrate diversity in your life, or even just like any of the Dei values? And how can others celebrate it, too? Okay, so I celebrate diversity pretty much in everything that I do. You walked around my place, you would see that I look like I collected items from all over the place and put it in one location and was like, looks perfect. But the reason I do that is because there's something that is so beautiful about the diversity of talent, the diversity of thought, the diversity of lived experiences. And wherever I can be surrounded by that, it holds me accountable so well to continuously celebrating it. So I'll give you an example. There are people who hold very different views than I do. And I still managed to celebrate the fact that folks have different views and diversity of thought. And I do that maybe not in the way that other folks are thinking. Like, Woohoo, I'm so glad that you have completely different views than me, but I acknowledge that. Wow. I've gotten to the place in my own journey where I can engage in a conversation with someone who has varying thoughts than I do. And I love that. And I celebrate that. I think in general, I come from a very multicultural background. I mentioned I was born in Toronto. I grew up in a very multicultural setting. Different foods, different smells, different views, different hair, different skin, different music. Right surrounding me like grew up. And then on top of that, I'm half Indian and half Jamaican, which means that I grew up in a house with very spicy food, a lot of fun music, a lot of different personalities. And that's a big part of who I am. And so the way that I celebrate diversity is by continuously seeking it out as an adult, I will always seek it out. I say my house looks like a little weird because it has all these different things all over the place. But what I mean by that is, anywhere I go, I can support a small business who's really trying to showcase the way that they celebrate diversity. I want to invest in that, and I will take something and bring it home and continuously to celebrate that. And I seek it out in the folks that I surround myself with. I seek it out in the food that I eat. I create the best way that I can, obviously in my professional life spaces for folks to also explore what diversity means for them, and of course, take it a step further and explore what inclusion means for them in their own businesses and personal lives. So that's how I think I celebrate diversity consistently and constantly is by seeking it out, loving on it, celebrating it, and just thinking about the purest form of really joy that can come from folks showing up authentically as themselves. Even if that varies from the way that I do. The way that other folks can celebrate diversity. I think it's about defining what diversity means to you first. And so what does that mean in the ways that you kind of elevate diversity in your pillars of who you are and your personal core values and show up for things that might be new to you, show up for festivals that you see create opportunities for it to engage with conversations with people who have different generational diversity and different generational experiences than you do. I think that diversity is also one of the things that I think that is included in the scope of diversity oftentimes is allowing the concept of knowledge to be something that's important to you. Right. Like read different books, ask for different recommendations, watch different videos, watch international films, support small film festivals. That's how you really get to celebrate diversity. So define what it means to you and explore the ways that your personal interests can elevate and help you kind of decide what celebrating that diversity can look like in your everyday life. So good. Literally, you gave so many examples, like TV shows, books, food, going to different restaurants, events. There's literally so much that I feel like everyone can take at least one of those examples and incorporate it right away, like implement it tomorrow, watch a new TV show. Yeah. Read a new book, listen to different music. That's such an easy one. Go on Spotify and look up some cultural music that you've never heard before or that, I don't know, interesting you or what. Look at something different. Look at a different artist. I think those are all just such great examples and really easy ways that we can implement these values into our lives. I think there's maybe the misconception sometimes that it has to be like a big upheaval, and I think that's part of the work sometimes. But there are also simpler things that we can do that make a big impact, like over time. I love those examples. Thank you for sharing all of those. And I have another question that's kind of similar to the last one, but slightly different. So what would be the few steps that someone can take to start integrating Di into their life? And I thought it also be interesting to talk about in their business as well because I know there's a lot of business owners that also listen to this. So let's say beyond the kind of examples that we just gave of what you're kind of consuming, what are some other steps? Okay, really great question. So when I think about the concept of integrating Dei, I always think about, like, what are the action items that I can start working on that will impact other folks? And so I think one of the steps that you can take is obviously doing the research and education to think about what is number one, what is the breakdown of diversity, equity and inclusion actually mean? And what does that look like for me in my business, in my family's, in my relationships, et cetera? That's like a really great place to start for a tangible step, because that way you can really decide on what are like the next steps as far as organizations I want to start reaching out to or folks I want to start investing in or deciding on if the business practices I already have are equitable or maybe they are not. And so how can I start reevaluating that? For business owners specifically, diversity is something that is specific. How I mentioned celebrating diversity is something that I think you can do very well in a business by allowing yourself to say, Here are my limitations around my own sense of knowledge or my own expertise in what I'm selling and or how I'm showing up in my brand. And here's the way that I continuously celebrate diversity by amplifying the voices of other folks and here's who I partner with. Creating new streams of network is a great opportunity to really implement and integrate Dei into your business. Meaning if I had to decide on like five folks who really helped me to view diversity in a very different way, who would those folks be and how can I continue to learn from them and engage with them? I think that also encouraging your followers, your clients, to invest in their own Dei journeys is in essence, one of the best ways that you can integrate Dei into your own business. Meaning, what books can you recommend for them? If you are learning something new, can you similarly have you do to your family? Can you for them those articles so that they can start thinking about how they can themselves learn and integrate that new value or learning into their own lives and or businesses? Right. And so kind of some steps there are, like I said, thinking about how you define those terms, thinking about the issues that relate to you, thinking about how you can encourage a network of folks that really hold you accountable essentially to continuously prioritizing Dei in your business and in your personal life, and of course, encouraging your community to do that work as well. I always talk about this concept of aligned clients, and I know you guys can't see me right now, but I'm doing the air quotes like aligned clients, because defining an aligned client is also very challenging. Sometimes when you come from a place of like, I really need money right now where I'm working with whoever or I'm not really feeling like I have the capacity to make decisions about who my clients are. And I think aligned clients sometimes that term comes from a very privileged standpoint and saying I can pick and choose who my clients are. While I totally believe that you should engage with folks who have the same values as you, I also acknowledge that sometimes that is very challenging to do when you're starting your business or working from different places. And so one of the things that I think is a really great tool for the way that you can integrate Dei into your business and create a tone, set the tone for who your potential ideal client is or the folks that you'll be working with is by making sure that you have been very transparent in the way that Dei holds a place in your business. Right. Do you have it somewhere on your website that says this business is LGBTQ plus friendly? Like, we support black lives in this space. We are feminists, and we are making sure that we are doing whatever we can to break down systems of oppression. And if you don't feel like that aligns with you, maybe you don't want to work with me. Right. And so you're unintentionally creating maybe some of those, quote, unquote aligned clients because you're putting it out there that this is what matters to you. And so even when you are creating those kind of initial calls with those clients or building that community for yourself, you have the right to say, if I'm integrating Dei, that also includes creating a community or a group of clients that understand the importance of why I am doing so and understand that when they work with me, they're going to hear this language, they're going to see me doing the work. I'm going to encourage them to do that back. So those are ways that you can start integrating Dei into your business and, of course, into your personal life when you do that with your friends, family, et cetera. Yeah. Okay. Not to bring religion into this, but when people talk about, I come from a religious background. So that's why this example comes to mind. But people always say, oh, just like, let God shine through you, like, live God's way. Just to be clear, I'm not attached to the Church anymore, but that's kind of what I think of when you mentioned the Dei values. It's just like live those values and other live those values attract the people that also want to be in that space, and they're also doing that work. And you don't even have to, like, even you just talking about it, sharing it. Like you said, where I stand, you don't have to sell it. That's so true. You really get to just show up authentically. And if you care about these things and you care about humanity and you really want to do this good work and you're talking about it and you're sitting in the discomfort with people. Those are going to be like, oh, they're dope. I want to do that work, too. I would feel safe working with them because I understand that they, at minimum, care about me. Right. And that's a big step for someone who's never seen someone else vocalize that they care about them. So you're right. And I totally understand what you were saying. I was picking up what you were putting down for sure. You just also sparked something else for me. At the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, I had a fear that, like, showing, quote, unquote weakness or vulnerability or talking about certain identities that I held. I struggle with depression and anxiety, and at the time, it was undiagnosed ADHD. So I just kind of it was all just like mental health shit. But I felt like me talking about that would somehow discredit my ability as a business owner, as a leader, as a coach. And I learned that it cannot be more the opposite, and that it really invites people in and creates a safer space when people are like, oh, they're experiencing the same thing that I experienced. So now I feel way more comfortable opening up about like, oh, I can't show up to our call today because I haven't left bed because I'm so depressed. And they know that I'll understand that because I've been in the same spot. And so that's been one of the best things I've done in my business is like just being very honest about my own struggles, where I'm at, where I stand on social justice issues and things like that. I thought it would make me look less professional, but it's done the opposite. Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally understand that's a very valid insecurity and that's 100% stems from capitalism and white supremacy culture that we are expected to be perfect and show up in next Y and Z. But one of the things that I think is very powerful is that when you model vulnerability and when you model authenticity and when you model imperfection, even, not only are you giving others permission to do that themselves, but you are creating a sense of safety and security and bravery for people to explore even the communication with you or joining a sense of community with you when they might be looking for that and wouldn't have even known where to look otherwise. And so I 100% commend you in the way that you show up authentically. And I remember even you and I had a conversation once where I was like, you need to postpone this meeting. Because, like, don't worry about it. Just postpone the meeting. We're all in the same boat. We all totally understand where we're all coming from right now. That's totally fine. We're all struggling, we're all tired, etc. E. And that was such a power move for you because that individual that day probably needed that break. It's so important that you continue to show up in that way and be honest about where you stand on issues, of course, where you're at mentally, where you're at in your business, et cetera. Because there's something that creates a lot of bravery and creates, honestly, like, a strong sense of belonging for folks, too, as they engage with you and your business. So, yes, to all of us, don't be afraid to cry on stories. But you also don't have to. You don't have to. But if you do, I'll still root for you. You know what I mean? And I think it's great. Ok. So I'm pretty much at the end of the questions, but there was a couple of other things that just came to mind while we were talking. So the one thing about the business owners and places to start, I wanted to add that hiring A-D-I. Consultant has been one of the best investments in my business. And so if you do have the financial means to do so as a business owner, I highly recommend it. Before I was able to afford to pay for a monthly retainer, I did workshop that was specifically for business owners. So that was like a lot lower of a price point. So that's also like a place to start if you don't have the means to do like a monthly thing. I know Jolly also does calls that we can book individual calls as opposed to, again, doing a retainer. And obviously just following those people, too. If you don't have any budget for that, following them and listening to what they say on their stories and their posts and things like that is obviously really valuable. And the other thing I want to say is we've talked a lot about resources, and it seems like everything has come back to the first step is just like, what's your own thing that you need to learn? And I just want to say, honestly, it's so simple. Go to Google and type in resources for anti racism or resources to be an LGBTQ plus ally. Like, there will be so many lists, there will be so many things that come up. So if you're like, I don't even know what resource to have or where to start. Google is a great place to start. Also follow. There's also, like, a lot of people who have dedicated their platforms to educating others on how to be an ally for various groups. I literally just followed somebody the other day that is antiracist educator. I think that's their handle and their whole page is about like, here are things you can do or here's this issue or here's this book. And where are you at in your journey? Let's do a check in and stuff like that. So there's so many resources and creators out there. And Jalali, I know you also mentioned, like, asking your audience for, you know, who's read a good book lately that talks about this or like Pride Month is coming up, who are your favorite queer authors, things like that. Also a great place to start. So I don't want to hear anyone saying that there's no resources because there's a million. Yeah. And if anyone ever needs any, I'll extend to kind of my hand right now and saying that you have me as a resource through at least because I love giving, at least starting kind of points to saying, hey, what are you passionate about? Let's find a great resource for you to start and kind of build on that passion. And so I encourage you all to not only utilize the folks that you have in your community, know that you have me as extended community, but also start thinking about who can I at least follow to give me that type of content just so that I can start in that process? And when I answer that question about like, oh, Dei integration, first steps for many folks. And at least you can attest this, too, hiring a Dei consultant, coach, et cetera, feels very far in the distance. Right? It's like, I don't know that that's something I can never want to afford or I'm not there yet, et cetera. But I will say that one of the best ways that you can obviously put your money where your mouth is, etc. Is to invest directly into folks that are not only doing this work, but to invest in folks that are BIPOC, women, clear, et cetera, different minoritized populations. Because that way you're saying, like, not only do I care about this, but I'm showcasing that in a way that's very authentic and giving right back into the communities that have oftentimes been taken for granted or taken away from. So give yourselves Grace as you decide on what that integration looks like, but definitely push just to, like a little bit of discomfort because there's so many resources out there that even if you said, okay, I'm going to look up an, like you said, antiracist resource on Google. Okay, I read one resource. I feel good. Push yourself to read a second one and just get a different perspective or a different author. And I think that's going to be a really great start for those initial steps, for sure. Yeah. And I know a lot of those resources, too, that I've seen will even break it up into, like, starting very first book start here, and then you're more in the journey. A lot of them, the people have already done the work to break it down into more of like a flow. So you don't feel like because I know some resources out there will be too advanced for where you're currently at. So you want those books that are going to meet you where you're at in your journey. But there's a lot of like I said, people have already done that work to organize that. There's something for everyone. People don't worry. Yes. But thank you so much for extending your advice and expertise as well, and just opening up that line of communication for everyone listening. That's amazing. And where can the listeners find you? Okay, everyone. So as I mentioned before, my name is Michelle Jalali, and I framed my business to be called Jalali Consulting because my creative mind was clearly lacking that day. So you can follow me on Instagram at Jalalali Consulting, J-A-L-A-L-I consulting slide in my DMs. I've got you. If you ever want to just do a coffee and connect, call 20 minutes, whatever. Just to start the conversation, start your own journey. I totally have got your back and you can look me up on my website@jolieconsulting.com just to get a full scope of the work that I do, but otherwise those are the two places that you can definitely get in contact with me. I offer a variety of services not just for business owners, but definitely for individuals who are looking just to start on their personal journeys, either as allies or folks that are part of marginalized groups that want to do some internalized depression work. So I am very again grateful for this time to chat with you, Elise. Me too. This has been amazing and I will link everything below so you don't have to worry about frantically writing it down. I'll have it linked so you can go and check out Jalali and all of the amazing services that she offers. And thank you again just for your time and for just sharing so much wisdom on this interview. And I also want to add that Jolly shares there's so many amazing resources on her Instagram all the time. So go follow her for sure and check out her post, check out her stories. She's always posting things and it's just a great place to start if you're not sure where to start. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks everyone. I know I say it's probably about every single episode, but I genuinely feel like this was one of my favorite episodes because there was just so much tangible advice and takeaways that came out of it and it was such an important conversation and I feel like this could not come at a better time for all of us. So definitely go and follow Jalali on social media. Of course, I've linked them down below in the show notes. I know we talked about this on the episode, but I just want to remind you to take care of yourself, take care of your mental health, take breaks from social media when you need it. Just be kind to yourself right now and do what you can. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, we'd love it if you would share a screenshot on your social media and tell us what you loved about it. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can subscribe to the show Rate and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I will be donating $1 for every review left in the first six months to organizations that our podcast guests have chosen. Thank you for listening and remember to keep finance queerd.