EQ Bank Interviews ME!

In this very exciting episode, I get interviewed by Sarah from EQ Bank!! We chat about how my approach to personal finance is unique, what's missing from traditional personal finance advice, what intersectional finance really means and how we as a society can make finance more intersectional.  This is special episode where I am on the other side of the questions for once, and I hope you enjoy!

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Transcript

0:00

I want to say. Ellyce, thank you so, so much for coming on the Take Back Talk Back podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. This is very, very exciting. I agree. Love podcasting, love talking about personal finance, and I absolutely love your content, especially on Tik Tok. I saw TikTok of yours recently where something you said really impacted me and you said personal finance quite often ignores the person. Can we start there? Can you share with our listeners what you really mean by that? Yeah. So in my experience of consuming traditional finance advice and doing research in it, I think that a really big thing that is missed is the actual person, which is ironic because we're talking about personal finance. But I think that this advice does not take into account the various identities that someone might hold and how that will impact how they view money, how they spend money, how they grew up around money, how they understand money, like, all of those things. And as an example, I have ADHD. So for me, it's really hard to follow a traditional budget, like the spreadsheet type of budget, because it's just super boring and my brain doesn't produce enough dopamine. So for me, a lot of activities I need to make more exciting in order for me to want to do them. So that's one of those things that I won't stick to you, I'll be frustrated and then I'll just give up. And then it results in a lot of people feeling like it's their fault and that something's wrong with them and that they just need to work harder, be more motivated, and they'll suddenly be able to figure out their finances when it's actually more of a problem with the advice itself is very catered towards one type of person, which is traditionally like white, cisgendered ablebodied men. So people who have identities that fall outside of that, often just the advice doesn't work for them. So I think that's like a big piece that's missing from traditional finance advice is like, we're just giving cookie cutter advice and systems instead of taking into account what those individual people might have experienced and how that might impact their money. I think I mean, I'm also a frequent user of Tik Tok, not a video creator. I have created about four videos. None of them are going viral for any reason. But from what I'm seeing, it seems like more and more people are discovering that they have ADHD later in life, and it's something that is kind of impacting them in a way now that they didn't even realize. Like you say with finance, I never thought before, really consuming your content, that this is something that can really impact how you manage your money. So I think it's such an important conversation to have. I agree. And you're really doing an excellent job of bringing it to the forefront in a way that's really digestible and so interesting and educational, but also entertaining. So thank you for that. Thank you. That's the goal. It makes me curious about what was the tipping point that made you want to make this contribution to making finance more intersectional? Yeah, so I feel like for me, it was more gradual. I've always kind of approached or aim to approach my life in an intersectional way, like when exploring different issues and just like going through university and things like that. But I feel like I didn't really apply a lot to finances until I kind of got more into coaching. So as I started financial coaching and having more clients, I had a couple Tik Tok videos go viral. And so I received over 500 applications in like a week, which was so crazy. And so I read a lot of people's stories and heard a lot about how they've managed money and things they've tried and systems that haven't worked for them. And so going through this, I was like, there has to be something else going on. Because if being good with money was just as simple as following a budget, then almost all of us would be good with money because almost everyone has tried some sort of budget in their life. So I was like, there's got to be something else going on here. There are more factors at play. And at the same time, I was going through my own personal journey during the pandemic where I publicly came out as queer and I was diagnosed with ADHD and I started to reflect on those experiences and how those have impacted my finances and that kind of like with the puzzle piece. So I guess both of those things happening at the same time really made me realize that, wow, your identity has a huge impact on your money and nobody's really talking about it. So I started talking about it and I was like, I need to fill this gap because this is something that for me, it felt like a light bulb moment and realizing how much of my financial struggles, like, weren't my fault. It was largely because of my undiagnosed ADHD and the lack of education that we have growing up too. I just started talking more about it and it just really is something that I'm really passionate about because I've seen how big of an impact it can make on people. Like making these connections and learning how to tailor their finances so that it actually makes sense with who they are. Instead of trying to. Like. Fit themselves into a box of. Like. Traditional finance that just doesn't work for them. Exactly. And clearly it's striking a chord with a lot of people, which is fantastic. Again, I first connected with your content on Tik Tok and for the listeners. You have amassed over 496,000 followers and 4.3 million likes. Definitely more by the time we're airing this. So there's clearly something about the way you do your content that strikes a chord with people. So what do you think that secret sauce is? Yeah, so I think you already kind of mentioned it earlier, but having content that is super fun and digestible and meeting people where they're at on a platform that they're already using and especially for people with ADHD, it's like attention spans for a lot of people with ADHD are short. So I'm not the type of person to sit down and read a boring book on finances. So meeting those people where they're at and giving them information that is super accessible and digestible and tips that they can go and implement right away. And I think that a lot of people have been waiting for this content and I think that's also why it's been gaining so much traction. Because for me, when I made that connection between my ADHD and my money and me being queer and my money, I sought out financial advice that was talking about that and there's not very much that exist. So I think that when I kind of filled that gap, there's a lot of other people who are like me and waiting for that information to be out there and waiting for that content. And I worked really hard to create as much of a safe space as I can on my platforms. And I think that also is another reason why my content is very it's picking up a lot of attraction and it's resonating with a lot of people is because people don't feel judged when they come to my platform. They feel safe, they feel like they can talk about the things that they struggle with. And if they're telling me about something with their ADHD that makes it hard to manage money, they're not being met with like, oh, well, you just need to work harder, you just need to buckle down and usually try this budget or just go make more money or whatever they're met with. Like, yeah, I struggle with that too and it sucks. Like, oh, no problem, just make more money. Yeah. I think it's like a place where people are actually being heard and understood and seen and I think that it doesn't happen very often in a neurotypical centered world. Yeah, 100%. And I think for me, particularly, what struck a chord with me was the authenticity. You can really see that it's really you, you've put your heart and soul into it and truly. Yeah. No one wants to feel judged when they're thinking about their finances or to be made to feel like a decision they made was the wrong one or they made a mistake. They just want to feel heard, understood and that's the way we are going to learn better, right? Yeah, 100%. I talk a lot about the importance of safe spaces and if you think about a time when you were in a classroom and it didn't feel comfortable to ask a question. Like, maybe the teacher was really intense or maybe everyone else in the class seemed to understand a concept and you didn't. It holds you back from being able to ask those questions and get the information that you need. And the same thing applies to money. If you feel like you don't understand something that everyone else does. Or you feel like the space that you're in isn't going to be safe for you. Like. For example. Being a part of the queer community. There's a lot of spaces that aren't safe for me and I have to be aware of is this a place where I can talk openly about my partner who is a woman? Or is this going to be like an unsafe space? So without having those safe spaces, we don't feel comfortable enough to even ask the questions. And I think that's a huge kind of gap in the personal finance community is that the access to education is lacking. And a big part of that is like, the lack of safe spaces for a lot of people. And so it just keeps people in the dark and keeps them, like, not asking questions and not talking about it because they don't feel comfortable to do. So I can't remember what my original point was, saying that, yeah, it's the safe space and it's the you know, I know I've struggled with that myself and feeling like whether it's talking about finance or whether it's in the office asking questions and there's always that little voice in your head that's saying, like, don't ask that you'll sounds stupid. Everybody else knows what they're talking about. You're the only one who doesn't know. And that's just really it keeps you down when you're trying to learn something new. Yeah, definitely. So you talk a lot about different financial products and obviously we're powered by EQ Bank here at the Takeback Talkback podcast. I'm curious if you ever get approached to promote a financial product that maybe you don't believe in and with that you have your authenticity. That's a big threat in what you do. So how do you approach that conversation? Yeah, so I definitely do get approached on a regular basis. I pretty much get emails every day from random companies. So I do have agents now that handle my brand deals, which is awesome. So they have a pretty good idea of they already know which brands I'm working with and like what I like to use and what I don't. And so they already have good judgment there. But for me, it's really about I only work with brands that I use myself and that I love or that I've done like, extensive research and testing on that I can confidently say this is a product I really stand behind. So I'm very picky with who I work with. And I think that's super important in the finance space because there definitely is, I guess, room for there to be some ethical issues there with people that are in the finance space promoting a lot of products that just make them money, but are not products that are actually good products. And I think we've seen that a lot with the kind of guidelines on TikTok and Instagram have cracked down on a lot of those financial products that are just basically multi level marketing schemes. So I have to be really careful of the products I promote. And that's something that's very important to me, is like, being very aligned with my values and only suggesting the products that I know are going to be really good for my audience because I don't want to leave anyone as strain. I don't want someone to use a product that's not going to work for them. And something that's also really important to me when talking about any products is like educating my audience on why I like them or why things they maybe don't like about them and really helping my audience make informed decisions rather than just saying like, everyone needs to get this, just buy it, or you just need to sign up for this. I'm very aware of how I'm promoting that product and so that it's a way that people feel empowered to make that decision rather than backed into a corner. Like, they have to make that decision, which I think does also happen a lot in the finance space. It's like this energy of, like, you're already behind, you just need to go invest in this thing. It's a lot of like that. And so I really want to be the opposite of that. And it's okay, you have time. You can take your time figuring out if this is the right choice for you or not. And yeah, if I don't feel aligned with the product, if I don't use it, then I just will tell the brand, like, I'm not comfortable promoting that product. And that's so great and it's really important and I think it really, again, just speaks to that community that you've built. And I feel it too, when I see your content. I just feel very that authenticity that just shines through, that I know that you really, really do believe in it. So that's wonderful. Okay, so we've touched on this a little bit and I think that we can all kind of see where this is going. Like the avocado toast advice, what do you think? Typical run of the mill advice ignores. So advice like you shouldn't buy coffee every day or blanket advice like don't go into debt. It's really not great advice because it's not human. So what aspects do you think that that advice is really just not taking into account? I think there's a lot that it's ignoring. We touched on identity already, so that's like a big one. So it's ignoring the person's identity and how the way that you grew up. The way that you were raised, lived, experience that you've been through might affect how you decide to make financial choices. Another one is it doesn't take into account someone's individual goals or values. So your personal values dictate also what you feel like is important to spend your money on. And I always say if it was important to you, then it wasn't a waste of money. And I think that's a thing that this advice really ignores is like, especially when it comes to women. I think that there's a lot of criticism around what women choose to spend their money on, but we don't often see the same criticism around men who buy things that they deem as important, but a lot of women don't see as important. And so I think it's just important to not tell anyone how to spend their money because you don't know what that person's goals are. You don't know where they're putting the rest of their money. They could be maxing out their investment accounts every month and they want to buy their Starbucks coffee. So it's just like that advice isn't super helpful. It also promotes a lot of restriction around money. The advice of, like, yeah, don't buy coffee out. I know Dave Ramsey is famous for saying you shouldn't see the inside of a restaurant until your debt free. Like, things like that promote restriction and shame and guilt around money, which is the exact opposite of what we want to do. And it just reinforces those feelings of like, it's my fault and I need to not spend any money and not go into debt, and all of these types of things which are, just like you said, not realistic. And this advice also ignores a lot of the systemic barriers and oppression that people face and also privilege. Dave Ramsey is notorious for never acknowledging his own privilege and how that plays a role in how he was able to be successful and things like that. So it's a privilege in today's day and age to not have to go into debt, to attend post secondary and things like that. So that's really important to acknowledge when you're giving finance advice. And that's what a lot of those phrases just really ignore. Just frustrating. Absolutely. And I'm glad you brought him up because I was like, how can I bring him up without naming him? But it's so true. And I feel like that advice is getting consumed at a huge rate and people are feeling that guilt, shame and fear. And I've discussed this on the podcast before we did an event way back before the pandemic, that we surveyed our audience and asked them what their number one emotion surrounding money was. And the top three were guilt, shame and fear. And what we were discussing learning aspects. And if you feel guilty or ashamed or fearful about the subject matter, are you really going to learn? No. Absolutely not. Anyway, I was a little bit tangent, but no. Yes, advice like that just like, promotes the opposite. It just makes you feel even worse. It's like getting yelled at by your parents. It's kind of like you did this wrong and you need to change and be better. And so you just feel even worse and you just get even deeper into that hole of shame. And it often isn't even advice that actually ends up being sustainable or helpful in the long run. It's frustrating to see that kind of advice, like, circulating and it is like pretty well known phrases that go around. But yeah, like you said, it just doesn't help when the main emotions that people are feeling are guilt, shame and fear. It's not helpful advice. And again, it makes them feel like something's wrong with them and that the system is correct. Whereas I very much believe the opposite, that nothing is wrong with you, the system isn't working for you. Exactly. But there are ways and there are ways that you can kind of hack the system. And I think that's another thing that you really put out there quite frequently. So listen, if you're not following a lease yet, follow her by the end of this podcast because there is some good advice out there to be had. So I was doing some research preparing for this episode and according to Statistics Canada, they're saying that approximately 3.8 million Canadians identify as having a disability. Now, it's a little bit of an unfortunate they're lumping together physical and mental disability. But what I was getting to is like, clearly there's a need for this. So I'm incredibly drawn to in particular your financial advice for folks who are neurodivergent. So I know you've touched on this before with budgeting, but where is that disconnect for folks who are neurodivergent with classic financial advice? Yeah, so I think it's important, as I'm saying this, to acknowledge that people who are neurodivergent are going to experience things differently. So I am not trying to blanket statement everyone who is neurodivergent, but I know for a lot of folks the way that they view and understand money is completely different than neurotypical. Folks even like talking about money as a concept. A lot of folks who are neurodivergent have a hard time wrapping their brains around money because it's not like a tangible thing when we talk about money now in banks. Right, because it's just a number on the screen unless you're holding cash. And so for me, I actually think that money completely doesn't exist. It is like a social construct in my brain and obviously I know how to work with it to survive. But that's something that varies a lot from neurotypical people, is like a lot of concepts that aren't just harder to grasp and understand. So that's just like one example of how neurodivergent folks will actually understand money in a different way in their brain than someone who is neurotypical. And so because that we view money differently, we understand money differently, the systems that help us succeed are often not traditional systems that exist because as I mentioned earlier, those systems are largely set up for white, cisgendered, able bodied, straight men. And so if you hold any sort of marginalized identity such as being disabled or being black or indigenous, those are all going to mean that the system was not designed for you in mind. And so it can be hard to follow those systems that are set up for those people because they just don't work for us. But then it's not largely talked about what system does work and what we should be doing instead. And so I think that's like one of the big disconnects is just our brain is just wired differently. And another example I can give is like impulse spending. So a lot of people do experience impulse spending regardless of if they have ADHD or not. But it's experienced a lot more for folks with ADHD because they often experience impulsivity due to a lack of dopamine in their brain and so they will impulse spend in order to get that dopamine hit to their brain. And so that's a very common thing with folks with ADHD. And so giving advice like just stop spending money, don't spend as much money on your coffee and things like that isn't helpful because you're not addressing the root of the problem, which is the lack of dopamine. So that's another example of there's a disconnect there because the classic financial advice is like just do this thing. But we have actual things that are happening in our brain, like biochemical things, reactions that are happening that we can't just change, we can't just decide to do something because there's a lot of barriers there. Like even starting a new habit is very hard for neurodivergent folks and changing routine or even trying to get into routine or people experience it differently. But there's a lot of barriers there that don't exist for neurotypical people. So that traditional advice isn't as easy to implement. It's like telling an anxious person just stop worrying. Yeah, I have anxiety and I've had people, I've had like a family member say specifically to me, well, you can't think like that and it's like, wait a minute, hang on, I'm cured. I'm literally medicated in therapy because I think like this, like, no, no, just fix it. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think that this dovetails nicely into the last question I wanted to ask you, which is hopefully a little bit more on the solutions base. How can we as a society make finance more intersectional? So this is a good question and there is, I think, a lot of different directions that we could go with this. I would say the big overarching thing is dismantling systems, which obviously is like a really big one that's not necessarily going to happen very soon, but anything you can do to help dismantle systems of oppression that exist is a huge one. Talking openly about salary is another big one that's like very simple to do. So asking your coworkers about how much they make and openly talking about how much you make is really important too, because that really helps with the inequalities that exist in the pay gap and everything with that. So that's another one that can help with the intersectionality there advocating for others. So if you are someone who does not hold a lot of marginalized identities, advocating for those that do hold more marginalized identities and in many different spaces, that's like a huge thing of what I talk about is because money is so intersectional, it's not just when we're talking about finance. Spaces like this spills over into everyday life too. So anything you can do to make those marginalized folks have more quality in everyday life is also going to impact their money. Listening to others and specifically elevating the voices of marginalized folks and listening to what they have to say. So if you are. Say. Trying to. If you're a bank and you're trying to be more LGBTQ plus friendly. Like listening to people that are in the community and going from what they say and implementing those things rather than just talking about it with people that are not in the community. Which surprisingly happens a lot. People have panels that are talking about how to make their building more accessible and there's not one person with a disability on the panel and it doesn't make no sense. So that's a big one. It's definitely elevating those voices. And yeah, I think another one on a whole that a lot of people can do is just talking about money more often and just making it less taboo. And that kind of goes back to the safe spaces, like the more comfortable that we can feel talking about money and creating those safe spaces for other people. Then again, people that hold those marginalized identities will feel more comfortable asking questions, will feel more comfortable talking about what they're struggling with and that will just help everyone. So those are just some ideas. But there's really like a lot there's a lot that can happen. There's a lot of work I feel like we have to do as a society that's amazing and you're doing a lot of it and I for one really appreciate your content and what you're doing. I think that you've made so many strides and are helping a lot of people find their voice. So I thank you for that. Thank you so much. It's my pleasure. While I have you, is there any other words of wisdom that you wanted to share today? I think I would just say that it's not your fault that you're in whatever financial situation that you're in right now because many of us were not given the tools to succeed. And so it's not about trying to force yourself into using a system that's not working. If it's not working for you, throw it out, burn it, burn the system down, and let's find something that does work for you. And obviously, you can start at my page. I do talk a lot about intersectionality and identity, but there's also a lot of other amazing finance creators. So if you feel like my space isn't a safe space for you just because maybe I haven't experienced the same things that you have, there's a lot of other amazing finance creators out there. So my suggestion would be, like, find a couple creators that are talking about money in an intersectional way that really resonate with you and your lived experience where you can feel safe. And that's like one of the most important things, I think, is just having an environment where you feel like you are heard, you are listened to, you are seen, and that will help so much with your financial success. So that would be like a big takeaway that I would suggest for everyone is like, find some sort of safe space where you can talk about money, whether that's online or with someone in your personal life. And, yeah, that will just really help with taking the next couple of steps with your finances. That's such perfect advice. Thank you. I have so many takeaways today. Thank you so much, Elise, for joining us on take back talk back. Thank you so much for having me. Bye.