Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Digital is a demanding and competitive field. And women are still grossly underpaid & underrepresented. But we are not powerless; we have each other. Together Digital Power Lounge is your place to hear authentic conversations from women in digital who have power to share. Listen and learn from our amazing guests along with host Amy Vaughan, Owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital. Together Digital is a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. To learn more, visit www.togetherindigital.com.
Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Breaking Stigma with Inclusive Marketing
Welcome to The Power Lounge. In this episode, we explore a significant shift in healthcare marketing with our guest, Melissa Forrest Shackleford. With over twenty years of experience, Melissa has developed inclusive marketing strategies for organizations such as Optum and the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation. She joins host Amy Vaughn to discuss how inclusive marketing can challenge stigmas in healthcare.
Melissa details her journey and the impact of purpose-driven marketing in breaking down barriers and fostering meaningful consumer connections. The conversation covers the effectiveness of inclusive initiatives, the importance of language and accessibility, and provides practical strategies for obtaining executive support for inclusive marketing efforts. Additionally, Melissa highlights the tools and innovations that are driving change in the industry.
This episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice for marketers, healthcare professionals, and anyone committed to making a difference. For further reading, Melissa's book, "Harnessing Purpose: A Marketer's Guide to Inspiring Connection," provides more comprehensive knowledge. Join us in building a more inclusive future.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:14 - "Evan North's Transformative Marketing Impact"
04:57 - Understanding Consumer Stigma Insights
08:18 - "Understanding Health Care Marketing Challenges"
11:04 - Fighting Stigma in Lung Cancer Screening
13:27 - Progress in Health Care Perception
17:26 - Authenticity in Testimonies
20:10 - Inclusive Marketing Awareness
23:50 - Person-First Language Explained
25:15 - Language Nuance and Impact
30:56 - Delivery Service Boosted Sales
33:29 - Reaching Diverse Audiences Economically
37:26 - Champion Accessible UX Today
41:44 - Purpose-Driven, Authentic Marketing
44:25 - "Values-Driven Consumer Purchases"
48:36 - Beyond Performative Inclusivity
51:14 - Inclusive Audience Targeting Importance
54:02 - Essential Inclusive Marketing Strategies
55:25 - Outro
Quotes:
"Inclusive marketing means truly seeing and understanding each person, unlocking its transformative power."- Amy Vaughan
"Shifting from stigma to understanding changes perceptions, saves lives, and forges genuine connections."- Melissa Forrest Shackleford
Key Takeaways:
Breaking Stigma Starts with Understanding
Authentic Representation Matters
Accessibility is Key to Inclusivity
Language as a Powerful Tool
Leveraging Technology for Personalization
Inclusivity Equals Growth
Connect with Melissa Forrest Shackleford:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mfors/
Check out Melissa's book: https://a.co/d/5HGTje6
Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/amypvaughan
Podcast: https://www.togetherindigital.com/podcast/
Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by visiting https://togetherindigital.com
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigitalcom and today I am incredibly excited to have a healthcare marketing powerhouse, melissa Forrest Shackelford, joining us to discuss breaking stigma with inclusive marketing. Melissa brings over two decades of experience driving growth and visibility for renowned healthcare organizations, including Optimum Hazelden, betty Ford and Sigma Evan Everworth Sorry, I moved my mic this week, I'm already like running into stuff and Sigma Evanworth, evan North. She has been recognized as the American Association's 2019 Nonprofit Marketer of the Year and named among the top 50 women leaders in healthcare for her transformative work.
Speaker 1:As the principal of Shackelford Strategies, she is dedicated to helping brands create purpose-driven marketing that breaks barriers while building meaningful connections, something that we are very attuned to and very excited about here at Together Digital. Her experience spans go-to-market strategies, brand development, digital transformation and data-driven marketing initiatives. She also brings a valuable perspective from her board positions as Asbury Communities and advisory roles at multiple health tech startups, with experience that spans behavior, health payer provider and healthcare technology, including international work and proficiency in Japanese Gosh. Melissa, you just have all these amazing skills and abilities. You bring a truly comprehensive perspective to inclusive marketing strategies. She's also published a recent book. Check it out on Amazon we will drop the link in the chat live listeners. Harnessing Purpose A Marketer's Guide to Inspiring Connection. I know our members will be excited and our listeners will be excited to check that out. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today on the Power Lounge. We're thrilled to dive in. This is a very important conversation about creating more inclusive marketing strategies that can absolutely make a difference.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, amy. I'm just I'm so excited that you and your followers are interested in this topic, because it's it's a little bit sometimes not the sexiest part of working in digital, but I believe that everybody has a part to play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and yeah. It might not be the sexy, but I would say it has to be some of the most fulfilling. I think some of the most memorable campaigns and work I've done were things that had purpose and value, and I think a lot of our members. When they talk about purpose, you know it doesn't always have to be work, but it is so great when you can bring purpose into the work.
Speaker 2:Isn't that? That's for me, that's when it all comes together, when you can find purpose and value and meaning in what you're doing every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. It's a good reason to get up for more than just that paycheck. So let's start with a little bit about your personal journey, before we go into some of your amazing strategies you have to share. I'd love to hear more about your personal journey and what led you to focus on inclusive marketing and breaking stigma in healthcare specifically.
Speaker 2:So I've been a corporate marketing and growth person for many, many years, but about the last 17, 18, I came into healthcare and kind of all sides of healthcare, like you mentioned. But it was truly when I spent about 10 years at Hazelden Betty Ford, which is the nation's largest substance use disorder and mental health treatment organization, that I really dug into stigma in healthcare, and I really did because there I led marketing and as I was digging into the data like we do, I discovered our number one competitor was not another organization, it was families that knew they had a problem but did nothing. And so there's many, many reasons for that Accessibility and healthcare insurance. There's lots of different reasons, but one of the big factors was stigma.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So these are families. They realize that they have a problem with you, know themselves or a family member and they choose to not get care because you know what would the neighbors think? Or, oh my goodness, I can't take time off of work because what if people at work found out and when you think about all these other healthcare conditions, if someone has breast cancer, they're not saying, oh my God, what would the neighbors think?
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh I can't take time off of work. It's these stigmatized conditions that people are feeling that kind of that sense of shame and fear and stigma, and that it's just, it's horrifying. And so for me, that's really when I really started to dig in to learn more about stigma and healthcare and see what I and what other people in my type of role could do about it, because there's impact that we can have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is what I love about these conversations is that, while they might be industry specific, it does reach a broader group in the sense that understanding stigma when it comes to purchasing decisions is huge. It's a massive unlock for any business that you're running or marketing for is really not just understanding, it is. You're right. We go straight to competitive analysis and begin to understand what everybody else is doing without actually looking at the person we're trying to help, which is the consumer, and say what is holding them back, what is the thing that is making them not make the thing you know, make this happen, make this purchase, make this, whatever it might be, fill out the form, complete the survey, whatever that might be. And so I think you know, with healthcare, I can definitely see how it's a struggle, but across the board, in any industry, I could definitely see how looking at that stigma and identifying that for your consumer actually gives you an insight that maybe you didn't have before.
Speaker 2:Exactly. There's so much in so many kind of facets of our lives. There's stigma and shame and fear, but there's things we can do to help break that down, and healthcare is just one, actually, that all of us can help make kind of progress in, because all of us are healthcare consumers, all of us have loved ones who need care too, so it's an area that I think all of us can have impact on, just in our day-to-day life as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so on that note to dig into stigma more obviously is like how would you I mean you defined stigma in the sense of like, getting help and support? Were there other instances within marketing healthcare that you came across stigma? And then, outside of that, even what are some of the more common stigmas that you've encountered that brands struggle to address effectively?
Speaker 2:So I kind of, at a highest level in healthcare, define stigma as really negative stereotypes, negative biases, negative perceptions. They're all kind of made up about individuals with certain healthcare conditions and it leads to discrimination, it leads to unlawful treatment, it leads to a lot of marginalization of different communities and oftentimes in health care it's things like I mentioned substance use disorder, mental health, obesity, it's HIV, it's diabetes I mean the list goes on and on for different conditions where people have these kind of society, has these negative stereotypes about people, and then people oftentimes internalize that stigma and it's this cycle of shame and fear and so people don't want people to find out that they have this condition, they don't want to ask for help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and their fear may be justified because they may have had situations where they were treated with bias or prejudice in the healthcare system and my example I use a lot is you know if your teenager needs braces no big deal. You're going to ask everyone. You know which orthodontist they used and about their experience no big deal. No big deal If your kid has a substance use disorder or a mental health problem. You oftentimes are not going to talk to others because of that fear and that shame, and so you're probably not going to get the care that you really need.
Speaker 2:When I think about all those conditions, they're all healthcare conditions and there's healthcare available for them and oftentimes it's life-saving care that's available.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's such a big uphill battle, I'm sure, for healthcare marketers and I know that our listeners, even as patients themselves, are relating to, as you're reading off that list of all of those things they've sat in a physician's office, they've consumed and seen the marketing and advertising where they have these gross, generalized, overgeneralized statements made about them.
Speaker 1:And it does. It creates a different, a different mindset, going into any kind of engagement or you know anything like that with another marketing or healthcare firm. So I think it's such a smart way to really look at it. It's understanding your consumer and those deep seated concerns and fears and the things that they may not speak about, so that you can maybe be that voice for them. So I'm kind of curious, you know, in that real world impact kind of scenario, if you had any examples of either campaigns or initiatives that you worked on that helped to kind of break down those barriers. Like now we talked about barriers, we talked about stigma, like how then do we actually put it out into the real world, and then if you have any like impact that you could share is measurable or not, like you know what were some of the results there and what were the communities that were being served.
Speaker 2:So I've got two really great examples, and I didn't create either of them, but my first one that I'd love to share is around HIV, which is one of the most stigmatized conditions. There's so much societal sort of discrimination and negative stereotypes that people have made up, and in the last few years you see all sorts of advertising from the pharmaceutical companies who have treatments for HIV. They have advertisements all over TV during NFL games. What I love is that they just threw stigma out the door. They said we are not only going to not perpetuate negative stereotypes, we're going to create positive stereotypes. And in some of the ads it even says that these are not actors. These are actual people who are receiving these treatments and they're in the ads. They're climbing mountains, they're they're paddleboarding on the ocean, they're getting married, they're doing all the things. They're living their best lives, and I feel like what they've done is not only kind of smash the stigma, but they're showing people that this is. These are people that are living with HIV. These are people living their best lives, living with HIV, and it's creating a new version, and I just love it. And then there's another example that I also love because it's leaning into the stigma I used to be on the board of the American Lung Association and so I was able to learn about a lot of their campaigns and they could do a campaign about anything.
Speaker 2:But years ago they started a campaign that was called Saved by the Scan and it was targeting former smokers because smoking-related lung cancer is still one of the most stigmatized conditions Because honestly, even just by me saying it's smoking-related lung cancer versus non-smoking-related lung cancer, we think about those people differently. So people who are current smokers oftentimes their doctors will say, oh, you need to get these scans for early detection for lung cancer. But if you're a former smoker, because of so much shame and stigma, a lot of times people won't even talk about that with their doctor. So the former smokers weren't getting the early detection scan. So the American Lung Association started this huge campaign speaking to former smokers saying you are also eligible for early detection scans, and they were saving hundreds and hundreds of people by doing that. But they could have done anything. And they said we're going to lean into an audience that oftentimes is very stigmatized, very kind of lots of negative stereotypes and shame, and they said we're going to do this because we're going to save lives.
Speaker 2:And you can still, if you're a former smoker, go to SavedByTheScanorg and you can see if you're eligible. It's really an amazing thing that is transformative and life-saving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's amazing and that's so good to know. Yeah, those are two really great examples and I know I have seen some of those the advertising on treatments for AIDS and things like that and I've always been very, very impressed with how like, intentional, inclusive, thoughtful they are in their marketing like, and they aren't shying away from the conversation or or holding back on it and they're not painting people in again that over stigmatized light that they may have been in the past, which I think is really really great, and, again, not being so subtle. I think sometimes it's hard for people, but then it allows people to see themselves in the spaces and talking to the people that you need to be talking to, because when you again we talk to everyone, you're talking to no one, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, exactly, and you had said multiple times. It's about knowing your consumer.
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely, and in both of those instances just shows a great learning. And then applying that learning, oh my gosh, half the time we see something we're like this is so cool and then we do nothing with it. So yeah, I'm kind of curious too. Obviously you've been working in the industry for a while. You've seen a bit of evolution within the healthcare and marketing and how it's being done, and worked with organizations like Optimum and Hazelden Betty Ford. How have you seen healthcare marketing evolve regarding the inclusivity over the past decade and what do you feel like still needs to change?
Speaker 2:So I feel like we've made a lot of progress. So we've made a lot of progress because I think in healthcare we understand everyone is a healthcare consumer and we've made progress in certain things, like just changing the narrative in the country. I mean, oprah just did a primetime special about obesity and I feel like obesity is a great example.
Speaker 2:It was something that a lot of people just considered not a disease but like a moral failing, like these people don't have willpower, and I think now, with a lot of these weight loss medications that are out there, it's changing the narrative to say this is a disease, right, there's medication available, so you go to your doctor to get this care, and so it's changing that narrative and so I feel like we're having making progress and things like that. We still have a long way to go in certain conditions. I would say substance use disorder is one that we probably have the furthest to go, because that is still considered oh, there's kind of a moral failing or it's. It's something wrong with these people, rather than saying it's a disease, that there is treatment available.
Speaker 1:I imagine mental health probably falls into that same camping category as well, and on that too, you've worked. Obviously we've talked about Betty Ford Foundation. What were some specific lessons that you've learned about destigmatizing mental health and addiction issues, as we both mentioned just now. That could be applied maybe in other healthcare areas.
Speaker 2:So I think one great example and something that we've had a lot of progress in is around anxiety and depression. I think during the pandemic, all of us experienced some level of anxiety and depression just from isolation and loneliness, and I think it really changed a lot of minds that this is normal, it's okay and there is. You know, there's medication available, there's care available, there's, you know, different treatments available. And then we've had, I think, which is one of the best things for a lot of these stigmatized conditions, we've had some world-class athletes come out and talk about their mental health challenges.
Speaker 2:When you have Michael Phelps like the best swimmer in the world you've got Simone Biles, the best gymnast in the world.
Speaker 2:You have Naomi Osaka, who's one of the best tennis players in the world, out there talking publicly, being so vulnerable but talking about their own challenges and saying that they've gotten care.
Speaker 2:It kind of opens the door for other people.
Speaker 2:I think we still have a long way to go with substance use disorder, because it's still one that people are kind of quiet about.
Speaker 2:But you mentioned the Betty Ford Center. So back in the day when Mrs Ford, the former first lady, when she got treatment for her substance use, she could have kept it quiet but she made the decision to be public about it and that was really one of the first people talking about it publicly and kind of opened the door for women in particular to say, hey, this is a normal thing, she's the former first lady, she just left the White House and she's getting care, so you could too. So for me, I think a lot of it is normalizing the conversation and even though you know, simone Biles and Michael Phelps are people that are so unlike me in many ways, but the fact that they, if they can have this, then it's okay for just a regular old person like me to get care too, and I just feel like it's changing the narrative and kind of opening the door for conversation, just like Oprah has done around obesity recently.
Speaker 1:No, it's a great tactic and strategy having influencers, champions, advocates, whatever you want to call them, ambassadors for whatever that is Like I could imagine looking at and finding and identifying those consumer insights that lead you to understand, like, what are the stigmas, what are holding them back? Okay, well, who do I know is benefiting from this already having made the leap and trusted the process that we can then put in front of others to facilitate that conversation? Because, even though, like speaking of psychology, like we have those parasocial relationships right, even though I don't know Simone Biles, I know of her.
Speaker 1:I've watched her grow up, I've watched her excel and so, in so many ways, like I am personally invested in somewhere deep in my psyche, all of us actually believe that Simone Biles is something of a friend and so it's like that best kind of testimonial you could possibly ever get or give is when you have a trusted person speaking on behalf versus you know, like you even said earlier too, like using real people who you know are inflicted with AIDS to come on and be within the advertising versus actors, which I think it's just, it's such a small thing, but like and my example is, I worked on um, a PNG ventures, um of um product that was for skincare conditions. That was all about um eczema and um like what was else eczema and um like other skin conditions that would cause a lot of flaking, and I tell you what, the things that the real users would come on and they would let us film and everything. It was so beautiful, uh, cause I've done a lot of advertising in my life, but they're sitting in front of real people that were really truly impacted by the product. And, like one woman said, like I would, I was I was never dating because it was so bad, like my scalp would be flaking, so bad that I would be afraid to like put my head on a guy's shoulder while we were out on a date and it's just something like that that you're like.
Speaker 1:Now she can go out, she can be on her date and she can do something as simple as put her head on somebody's shoulder and not be freaking out about what's going to be left behind, like I don't know that your everyday average Joe marketer, who doesn't has never been afflicted with something like this, would ever have the insight or wherewithal to say much more to hear it from the person. It's just, you couldn't even direct an actor to do it as well as she did.
Speaker 2:It Just couldn't even have directed an actor to do it as well as she did. It was really cool to sit back and watch. That's just a testament to bringing those into the process that are from the different communities, and it's just like one of the things I do a lot of work around is accessibility and bringing in people who are living with different disabilities into the process or whether healthcare conditions bringing them in so, you're not speaking for them, they're speaking for themselves.
Speaker 2:That is such a great example because no one else would have thought of that, but also the impact. There's other people in our same exact situation that are thinking that way. And it just in general it just if you go outside of healthcare and individuals. That's where testimonials are so powerful and that's where even like online reviews are. They're also powerful because we listen to others in our same situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, cause that consumer perception, it can become the reality, right? So you do talk about accessibility in your book and ways to integrate it. Obviously, we just talked about you mentioned like bringing it into the actual process. Are there any other practical steps that marketers could do or take to ensure that their content and campaigns are truly accessible?
Speaker 2:So I I always have thought I'm such a like an inclusive marketer, and years ago, when I was at a healthcare organization, I had a company come in and do an audit of all of our marketing and one of the things that they dinged us on was imagery of people living with disabilities. And I was just I was so personally like distraught by that because I actually have a girlfriend who is a model who uses a wheelchair, and I think, like I should have. I know someone in my life who is actually a model in this space. So it was just teaching me that, okay, we need to really be deliberate. We need to show people of all walks of life, all shapes and sizes in our imagery, whether it's healthcare or anything else, because people want to see themselves reflected by the organizations they support.
Speaker 2:But the one thing I and especially because your audience has so many people that are working in digital I think accessibility and communications. These days, with the technology available, we all need to lean in to accessibility. From that perspective, accessible websites I mean closed captioning is so much more than like putting the closed captions on your Netflix show. Yeah, and it's helping people who have English as a second language people who are hard of hearing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many different reasons to close caption to do alt tags so that people can use screen readers, because everyone. It's amazing. Yeah, People with vision loss are using the internet just like anybody who doesn't have vision loss, and so that's where leaning into accessibility from communications isn't just for healthcare. It's hypercritical in healthcare because everyone needs to get that healthcare information. But in any industry, making sure we're really accessible in our communications, particularly in our websites, it's not really that hard. There's standards out there to follow, but that's one where I think especially people working in digital everyone could be a champion for that kind of accessibility.
Speaker 2:There's an economic story to it as well.
Speaker 1:There is yeah, no, I was getting ready to say that exactly Because, on the flip side, outside of that, you're leaving people behind that are potential consumers, buyers like you are. You're leaving money on the table by not being accessible. You know, I mean you even see it like as simple as subtle metrics, as like open rates and read through rates on our emails. You know, adding alt text to our images for our emails actually optimizes our performance. So it's like if you're not doing it, you're just you're losing out. You're losing out on performance, you're losing out on reach and you're leaving money on the table. So, yeah, it kind of seems like a no brainer, but you'd be surprised at how many people just resist it, cause I think they think that maybe it takes too much or it's too much work. But I think that if you look at the return on the investment, it's a well worth the time and energy.
Speaker 2:Well, and you look at just how far we've come with technology, that it's really not that much of a reach anymore. And, like you said, there's an economic impact. When you talk about inclusive marketing, marketing to all these audiences, you think about people with English as a second language. Well, massive audience. Lgbtq community massive audience. People living with disabilities massive audience. All these things it's not only the right thing to do, but there is that economic story, because these people from all these different communities want to be seen and heard in your marketing and your communications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, don't leave it behind. All right, let's talk a little bit about language and how important the role of language is in breaking stigma. Could you give us some examples of some language shifts that maybe have made a significant difference in healthcare communication? This is like one more dial right. We can kind of turn accessibility but also language.
Speaker 2:And it's, and it's something I think that a lot of us can just use in our day-to-day life when we think about it. There's a lot of people suggest that we follow person-centered language. So I'm not saying he's an alcoholic, he's an addict, he's a schizophrenic. I'm saying he is someone with, we say, a substance use disorder is the preferred term for that. Or they are someone with schizophrenia. So you remove the person from their condition because you don't say he is cancer, you say he has cancer. So it's just removing the person from their condition because they're more than their condition.
Speaker 2:But then it's also taking out a lot of that judgmental language like they are suffering from this illness and saying instead instead saying they're living with so you know someone's you don't want to kind of perpetuate the victim, of perpetuate the victim, yeah, exactly, Exactly, and so so it's just, it's sometimes it's a subtle shift, but it's taking the that judgment out of it, so you're not kind of leading with shame. Yep, I just think substance use disorder is such a easy example because it was always called substance abuse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which, again, there's so much judgment in that, where, if you just take that abuse out of it and you call it like a medical term, substance use disorder, which is the preferred medical term, oh wow, well, then it also. It just removes a lot of that judgment.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and then it also begins to lean it towards the language of like. It is something, a disease, and I think it is so. It is so subtle, and that is the beauty of like. The beauty of and the ugly side of language is it is so easy to just be flippant, but it's like, once you start to learn what those nuanced things are, those subtle changes do make a big difference, and so, like we've even said in another good one is, you know, instead of. Again, I've, I've learned like. The rule is don't describe like, don't depend the verb like or the other verb, the adverb, to the person, right, you're not describing them as somebody. It's like this is a person with a disability, not, you know, a disabled person, cause it's like no, there's so much more than that, so don't describe them as that, and I thought that was a really good rule of thumb as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and the one lately, I think, because it's been such a hot topic is obesity. So for so long people felt comfortable saying he's obese. Well, if we just shift it and say he has obesity, he's living with obesity. It's very subtle, but it takes a lot of that negativity out of it. Especially around now, people are getting care for the disease of obesity because there's medications that are treating you know, treating their disease.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again it does it. Just like I said, I think it's just a good rule of thumb to still describe people as like you do. Like you said, he's not a cancer, he wouldn't say he's cancer. It's such a good rule of thumb to kind of remember too, I think, Cause we are obviously so much more than whatever we're living with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and beyond that, it's also important, I think, like if working directly with people, to ask them how they would prefer to be, described because you'd be surprised oftentimes, and so that's where you know, like you said before, your example of bringing in the woman who didn't want to put her head on the shoulder, asking them, hearing from the different audiences themselves, is super. For me it's been super, super, enlightening and important. And you might think, well, this person over here prefers this term, but this person over here prefers that, and so it's like remembering that. You know, communities are not monoliths.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, exactly what is that? The platinum rule, or whatever they call it to you Don't treat others how you want to be treated. Treat them how they want to be treated. I love that idea, too, of asking them what their preferences are first. All right, so oftentimes you know we're marketers and everything gets boiled down to KPIs. Could you recommend what are some ways in which we could look at measuring effectiveness of inclusive marketing strategies? Again, as we're kind of trying to advocate and rally for these efforts and opportunities, oftentimes we're going to be like, okay, well, how are we going to measure this? How can organizations know if they are genuinely making progress?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of it. I point to the conversation we had a minute ago around it being an economic impact. And so, when I think about, I worked with an organization that was struggling with people reading the instructions and finally they realized they were overcomplicated. They were in such medical jargon people couldn't figure it out. And there's so many people that either have low literacy, or have English as a second language.
Speaker 2:that oh wow. Let's make some changes. Let's do a lot of testing in the process and there's we've got amazing UX testing tools these days. But let's do all that shift and they saw their like the response rate when they made those shifts skyrocket and you can't point it to one specific thing. But all of this was under the umbrella of let's make it more accessible and inclusive. Let's use more imagery rather than medical jargon, let's use lower grade level. I think for that one we got it down to like a fifth grade level.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And let's make sure the language we're using is something that's easy to use for somebody who has English as a second language, right, and let's make sure there's a QR code.
Speaker 2:So, because everybody's got a smartphone these days that they can follow a QR code and have a video pop up, for example, and so when there's tests like that that you can do so, you can't say, well, that was just because it's inclusive, marketing or it's more accessible, but they saw on that particular shift and before and after, response rates skyrocketed. So I think for me and my experience is doing a lot of that testing before and after it's hard to say, well, we made our website more accessible and because of that, this happened. But what we can do is we can monitor our KPIs before, we can make our website more accessible and follow the kind of accessibility guidelines and then we can watch it afterwards. So it's really, I think, for me, for some of those types of things, it's hard to say, well, it's because it was more inclusive. We're getting more people with low vision or something, or hearing loss. Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that, but you're having an impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could definitely see a lift. I imagine, if it's like more responses, more time on site again, like you're right, depending upon the project and the initiative and what you're trying to shift, looking at your key performance indicators before and looking at them after to see if you know, by making things more inclusive, does this make things like more optimized? Are people clicking through more? Are they purchasing more? All of those things can be followed. It actually kind of reminded me it's not exactly like inclusivity or accessibility or inclusivity like kind of related, but it does talk about this whole like we have to just get out of our own way sometimes as marketers and as brands.
Speaker 1:And there was this one key study I was listening to on a podcast about how this furniture company was in Chicago selling to young professionals getting their first apartment mostly customized sectionals, so very much in the right vein for their audience and they had loads of people coming into the store on the floor.
Speaker 1:And they had loads of people coming into the store on the floor looking at things, filling out forms, talking about, you know, putting together and designing their couch, cause they liked the idea that it was modular and you could design the outside, all this stuff, but then nobody was buying. They were spending all this time in the store and nobody was buying, and they couldn't figure out for the life of them why. Well, then they started talking to their customers and asking like well, what help kept you from buying today? Um, you're in chicago. Most of these buildings, especially young professionals were. They were I'm saying we, because I used to live in chicago and was young professional once upon a time, many years ago and you know, we're living on third floor walk-ups, fourth floor walk-ups, and you've got a whole ass couch that you now have to get rid of and you have to figure out how to get that other new couch up the stairs. All they did was start adding on delivery service to every purchase and their sales sword.
Speaker 1:So that's like a really good, simple example of like what you were saying at the very beginning, which is really looking at understanding your audience, asking them what are the barriers for you. And that's not always just about the price, it's not always just about the positioning and the branding. Sometimes it's as simple as a functional issue. If I don't have a way to, I don't want to try to get a couch down four flights of stairs and up four flights of stairs Simple as that, but that's it goes right to and speaking to your customer and digging in with them.
Speaker 2:I mean, honestly, everything starts with market research and everything starts with talking to your customer, no matter what industry you're at, and but that that I mean that's amazing that they did that and that's such a but it makes so much sense, but the fact that they never thought of it ahead of time also makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, exactly, because it's like they're just thinking about the initial sale. They're not thinking about everything thereafter, which could be another thing worth looking into and digging into. Like, what about your one-time buyers? Why are they buying once and if you're spent to be a recurring purchase, why aren't they coming back? There could be something you're missing out on in your product or service that keeps them from coming back again. Let's talk a little bit about executive buy-in because, like I kind of alluded to it earlier with the last question about the measuring success, for marketers who are trying to champion more inclusive approaches within their organizations, sometimes it can be a little bit of a barrier once it gets so high up. What are some strategies that you have found effective for getting executive buy-in and support on these initiatives?
Speaker 2:I think it's what you mentioned before. It's the economic story. So beyond everything else, it's the right thing to do and real kind of values-driven organizations understand that, but otherwise it's really. There's an economic story and 20% of the country is living with a disability and they have their family members, and so that's exponential.
Speaker 2:So, you think about that audience, when you think about people who have English as a second language or people who are native Spanish speakers, all of that. There's different audiences, that you can quantify those people and you can say these are people we need to reach. In one particular state, hazelden, betty Ford was one of the few substance use disorder treatment providers that could take care, take in patients that were using wheelchairs, and we weren't using that to our advantage, because there's an audience out there that needs it. And so that's where we did actually testimonial, or like a podcast, with a gentleman who was in a wheelchair, and that was part of the question why did you choose this organization? He was struggling with other organizations that couldn't take him, and so, oh, again, we need to make sure we lean into this because there's an economic story. It's the right thing to do as well, but there's an economic story because it's also, at the time, it was a differentiator to lean into that.
Speaker 2:So then, obviously, we had the testimonial of this gentleman that we used all the time because that was important. And you think about these different audiences offering things in Spanish. Well, goodness gracious, I mean, I could do the math pretty easily to say how many more people are you going to reach when you do things in Spanish? Well, goodness gracious, I mean, I could do the math, you know pretty easily to say how many more people are you going to reach when you do things in Spanish. So there's that economic sale to the leadership that this is not something that you're just making up, right?
Speaker 1:This is something that it's not just the warm puppies.
Speaker 2:And beyond that, there's actual kind of compliance for things like having an accessible website, in particular in healthcare. I mean people get sued all the time for not having an accessible website, because you need to have things available to everyone.
Speaker 1:So there's, that layer as well, that you know when you want to do that kind of the carrot and the stick beyond it all just being the right thing to do and I could definitely see how, doing the research and bringing the numbers of those audiences that are maybe not being served. That's market share. Oh my gosh, come on y'all. Do you want this market share? You don't want the dollars of those people that you know?
Speaker 1:Go to a different website and see, like you said, like I can't even get into the building, so why would I go there, you know, but if you actually talk about and share the accessibility of your business or what you do, like you said, I think that's another big point too. We kind of just skimmed over but differentiator, I think as well, it really truly shows, especially from a healthcare standpoint, that you care for the whole person, no matter who the person is, and that is that's a big way to stand out. So differentiating, understanding the target market that they could be missing out on, and that is that's a big way to stand out. So differentiating, understanding the target market that they could be missing out on, and then that market share overall because, at the end of the day, you know they care a lot about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly.
Speaker 1:Got to speak it in their terms, not just the warm fuzzies. Here we're actually serving more people, which means more money for you all at the end of the day. So I don't know why it's even a discussion, but it's even a discussion, but yet it still is, as we all know. All right, talk about a little bit about digital innovation. What are, how are digital innovations and new technologies helping break down stigma and barriers, and are there any tools or platforms that you're excited about are currently using?
Speaker 2:So I think some of the best things that's happened in the last few years is the the really what we talked about accessibility on websites and for so many different reasons. Obviously, everybody wants to optimize their website for Google and all of that, but optimizing it for every audience is critical, and I feel like we've come so far where oftentimes people like version one of your website is going to come that it's meeting some accessibility guidelines, and so for me, that's been one of the best things that to come that it's meeting some accessibility guidelines.
Speaker 2:And so for me, that's been one of the best things that we've done.
Speaker 2:And again, if I could say anything to your audience, you know, please become champions for accessible websites, because it's really not that hard.
Speaker 2:The other thing is I kind of mentioned a little bit before is all of the amazing UX testing tools that we've got today. I mean, years ago it was so tough and took so much money and time and effort to really get your voice of the customer. These days, you can, at the drop of a hat, get people to look at your different communications, your websites, your apps, everything, and get that instant feedback, and so I think those are also just amazing and really cost-effective way to do it. I just remember back in the day where you had to get people in a room. You had to, you know, do all these different things, and you don't have to do any of that these days because we've come so far, as far as on the UX front as well as the accessibility front, and that just makes me more and more excited for the future. The other angle, I think, and that AI helps us a lot with, is personalization and again, years ago not well, not that many years- ago it was really a huge lift to truly personalize a lot of communications.
Speaker 2:These days it's gotten so much simpler. And in healthcare in particular. When I think about healthcare marketing, the more personalized if it feels like this is just for me, that's going to help me to take action, and versus if it's something that's mass marketed and it's talking about some condition I don't have or it's talking about Medicare, which I'm not on, or things like that, and so these days it's just like AI has helped us leapfrog so far into the future, with everything we can do around personalization.
Speaker 2:Agree, yeah, and that's again not just for healthcare, that's for everybody.
Speaker 1:Everybody. Well, and then automation, too, right, making all of that easier and being more intentional and thoughtful about how you're optimizing and how you're personalizing, because, at the end of the day, it's all building trust, right? Yeah, you know that maybe don't have a reason to trust healthcare companies, you know, which is a lot of folks, and so, like, how do you make sure that they, like you said, they feel seen, heard, valued, and that's not going to be by sending them blanketed statements that are clearly not speaking to them or that are not clearly for them? It's breaking that trust rather than building it back up.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's even with that speaks to kind of the balance between AI and authenticity. Because, when you lean too hard into AI and it doesn't feel authentic, that doesn't help you build trust.
Speaker 2:So there's a balance between oh, we get all this efficiency from the AI or we really want to be authentic in speaking to our consumer? If you think building trust is the most important, then it helps you to balance the two Versus just saying we're going to be efficient, we're just going to rock this out with AI. That works in some situations. I don't think it really works when you really need to build trust and make sure you're really communicating in an authentic manner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got to keep that human in the loop for sure, and I do feel like there's been, and we're just going to have to sit back and kind of eat the popcorn and watch as, like some companies do, they fall into that trap of, you know, overuse of automation and AI. Somebody recently shared that I went to South by Southwest with said that like her favorite quote from the whole week was like AI won't replace marketers, it'll just reveal the bad ones.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's. I've seen so many fails around, kind of AI fails, and it's shocking sometimes the organizations that they're coming from or you're just saying oh my gosh, like I'm shocked that they let this filter through. But it's a volume thing, it's an efficiency thing and they're just not doing it. But it's those fails and we're all going to have them.
Speaker 1:They're teaching us all what to do differently, we're going to learn, whether it's from our mistakes or somebody else's. Hopefully it's somebody else's. All right, let's talk a little bit about meaningful connections, because your book focuses on inspiring connections. I wondered if you could elaborate on the relationship between inclusive marketing and building deeper, more authentic connections with the audience, which is just a great segue from your last comment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really think that. So purpose-driven marketing is really about creating authentic, meaningful connection, and it's more than just selling products. It's really making that kind of relationship with your customer standing for something bigger, being known for what your organization values. And when I think about authentic marketing and I think about or I think about inclusive marketing, it's the same sort of thing this is. These are audiences that want to be seen and heard. And when you're saying I value you and you're speaking to them in an authentic manner and you're being really clear about what your organization stands for, what you value, it really it creates more than like a customer relationship. It creates really brand loyalty, because when someone's seen and feels heard by you, and they understand that your values align with theirs.
Speaker 2:They're going to be a customer for life, and that's really what we all want. I mean, you mentioned it earlier in our conversation. You know we want to make sure that this is a lifetime customer. And how do you do that? Because there's some organizations I'm always going to go to, there's some restaurants I'm always going to go to, and there's some that I will go to once or twice but never go back. So it's really how do I create that real meaningful connection? By standing by my values and kind of being having an organization that is focused on doing something more meaningful than just selling products.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and at the end of the day, too, it reminds me of we had a podcast guest on here, nancy Harhut it's been forever now, I feel like it's probably sometime last year wrote the book on using behavioral marketing for, or using behavioral science for, marketing. It's a great read if you haven't checked it out to you and all of our listeners. And she really talks about how every purchase it doesn't matter what it is, how big or how small there is an emotional component to it. We are emotional beings by nature, so everything we do has some sort of emotion behind it, and emotion can either drive or detract from any kind of purchase.
Speaker 1:And again, like you just said, there you go to a restaurant and you receive amazing service and you feel so special and you feel seen and taken care of. It doesn't matter how crazy, elaborate, fancy or anything. It doesn't matter about the meal, the thing you came and you paid for and consumed. The food itself might've been so-so, but if the experience and the way you were treated was amazing, you'll likely come back, and so I think no, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I totally agree, totally agree with you on that.
Speaker 1:And then I will say too, again, just like looking at the world today, like values alignment. I'm so glad you brought that up. Values alignment is huge right now, whether marketers want to fully lean into it, acknowledge it or see it for what it is or not. But people are making purchase decisions not just in the emotional moment of like, how they are feeling personally. It's like that, emotions of like okay, I want to buy from people that I know are doing good things in the world, or I want to buy from people who are doing whatever you know. You want to see and feel that values alignment. And I think consumers more than ever, especially this younger generation. When you look at our Gen Z market data, that's where they're at. So it's like if you're not speaking about it, then you're not speaking to anybody. So you might be suffering from that lack of values expression and values alignment as well. So I'm so glad you brought that up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and it's not just the younger generation, I think it's everyone. When we think about it, everyone wants to make sure there's values, alignment. The younger generation is just really talking about it, they are. And even frankly, in a B2B world, people think, well, it's a B2B sale, no, no, no, it's still a human being making that decision. It's still relationships and still making sure you have a meaningful connection is what's going to make them a loyal customer for life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that loyalty man pays for itself, if you can make it happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. It does it does.
Speaker 1:So do what you can. All right, let's get to a couple of our rapid fire questions, or not so rapid fire questions. We've got time, which is great, so I am curious what is a one inclusive marketing practice every brand should implement tomorrow? I can't, I guess I might guess what it is, but you go ahead and tell me what you think.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to say, especially for your audience, it's an accessible website and accessible communications. It's really not hard, but that's the one thing I'd really. I ask everybody who's kind of working in digital, be a champion for that. It's not hard, it's so makes such a difference and it really should just be table stakes for all of us these days. And we're not quite there, but we're getting there, and so that's the one I would just say like champion that and it's for so many different reasons. Like, I think I love closed captioning and I'm not hard of hearing, right, but I've also lived in other countries where I need to have the closed captioning to understand the language.
Speaker 2:And I understand how people who have English as a second language are using that. So it's just, it's really about how do you cast the widest net and make it available to everybody.
Speaker 1:Big impact, and I mean most of the things that you would do to make a site accessible. It's kind of like a set it and forget it and then anything else outside of that. It's just a matter of working it into the process and workflow and it just kind of happens. It's like you're saying it's like it sucks to say it, but it isn't hard, but the impact is so great and very beneficial.
Speaker 2:Name a brand that you think is setting the gold standard for inclusive marketing right now. So I might say two, but one I just think is it's just such an obvious choice is Fenty Fenty Beauty and Fenty Bolding line. Because Fenty Beauty, so it's Rihanna's makeup line and she has more colors available from foundation than anybody else, so she doesn't actually have to write it out and say, hey, we're for everyone. She's saying that through her practice and then for her clothing lines she has more sizes available than anybody. So again she's saying, listen, we're for everyone, because she's making that available. It's just, it's making the statement without making the statement.
Speaker 2:I love that. The other one I just have to say cause I love it so much and I I just teared up when I've seen some of their commercials is and Microsoft is a massive company, but they've done some really amazing work around accessibility and they did a commercial a while ago. Um, that was for kids and xboxes, which every kid in everywhere wants an xbox. Yeah, they, they had accessible controllers and it was so sweet to see kids at play.
Speaker 2:Yep, and we all want kids to be able to play yeah but these were kids who were being excluded from playing with their friends on the Xbox. But then Microsoft made new adaptive controllers. Love it and it just changed and it was just like I just tear up thinking about what a sweet stories of kids being able to play with their friends.
Speaker 1:Right, and how much more likely.
Speaker 1:Again, you're speaking to those folks that need the inclusion, but then you're also clearly touching on consumers that are just aware of that and want to see that, and I think that that's like, again, it's that it's that double-sided benefit of inclusivity. Outside of that bigger market share and reach that you're getting, you're also affecting and impacting those who aren't even in that space, that are just like. I see you and I know that you're doing this and that, because of that reason, I am going to choose you and, I think, the two. The thing I love about both of those examples that you just gave, too, is I think in the past we've seen a lot of performative inclusivity for the sake of okay, well, you know, it's maybe the right thing to do, it's the warm fuzzies, but it's not an action. Both of those examples that you just shared, they're not just saying it, they're doing it Like and in Rihanna's instance, she's not even saying it, she's just doing it.
Speaker 1:So I do think that's like those are great examples. I love both of those things.
Speaker 2:I've been on the other end before where people have said your marketing is so inclusive. You have such diversity in your marketing but, in reality the company is not, so I've been on the other side. So you have to be careful about the performative, like just making it look like something is happening and not really doing it. You have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
Speaker 1:Yes, you do these days. People will find out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, they will share Blame me. I've been on that side, I've been on that side.
Speaker 1:That is no fun. That is not a fun place to be. That'd be such a good point. Such a good point. All right, I also meant to say live listeners. Um, I've just been so engaged in this conversation. I know you're here, but I also want to remind you please drop your questions in the chat, if you have them as well, because I want to make sure that you all get to ask what you would like to ask. If there's anything specific you wanted to ask Melissa, and then I'm going to go ahead and drop in the Amazon book link so you can check out that, and then I'm also going to drop in her LinkedIn so that you all can connect with her if you'd like as well.
Speaker 2:I'd love to connect with people and I'd love to have conversations around all these topics, like we're having today, amy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, me too. This is like. This is my jam, for sure.
Speaker 1:And then I just pasted it in the wrong chat. You know it's so Friday and I've been two weeks without a podcast episode. I forgot how to do it all. There we go. All right, awesome. So those links are in the chat. Live listeners. We have a few minutes left. If you want to jump in and ask any questions, we'd love to hear them, but in the meantime, we'll continue on with our power round questions. What is the biggest misconception about inclusive marketing that you'd like to debunk?
Speaker 2:So we've talked about it a lot and I really appreciate that we've had this conversation is that it's not just a nice to have. Inclusive marketing is also a revenue generator, and that's the part where sometimes it's shocking to me how organizations push back where it's.
Speaker 2:Why would you push back when I'm trying to reach older adults? Why would you push back what I'm trying to reach older adults? Why would you push back what I'm trying to reach Gen Z? Why would you push back when I'm trying to reach non-native English speakers? It's of course I should be reaching all these audiences and it's these days, with technology, it's not that hard to reach them. But I need to prioritize them. But it is really should be under the category of revenue rather than expense.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, I like it. Preach. That should be like a nice big billboard. Inclusivity equals revenue. I love it. All right, If you could change one thing about how healthcare marketing is marketed healthcare is marketed globally what would it be?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I've mentioned it earlier, but for me it's remembering that everyone is a healthcare consumer. So you're a healthcare consumer, your family are healthcare consumers, your neighbors are, you know your friend from high school.
Speaker 2:everyone is a healthcare consumer, and when we look at it with that lens, I think we approach things differently, because this is something for everyone, and everyone deserves to be able to get the care that they need and often life-saving care and, like we talked about, sometimes when there's too much stigma in society or fear and shame, people aren't getting that care, or if people just don't think that you're an organization that will welcome them then they're not going to get that care and we have so much available today that we should make sure we keep that top of mind. Everyone is a healthcare consumer.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, which is one of the few instances where you can say that right. Sometimes you'll ask clients who are your target markets? Who are you talking to? They're like, oh for everyone, You're just like flipping the table. But in this case and in this instance, absolutely, you are talking to every individual because every person is going to need it at some point.
Speaker 2:When I was working with substance use disorder. Again, it doesn't discriminate.
Speaker 1:And so you could say it's anyone.
Speaker 2:So that's a difficult one when you think about how do you reach that audience, because anyone could be touched and in fact, with the number of people who are touched by substance use disorder, I mean everyone knows someone. If it's your sister, brother, cousin, neighbor down the street, your friend from high school, everyone has someone. And so when you think about that, a lot of these healthcare conditions don't discriminate.
Speaker 1:Yep, no, absolutely I agree. All right, melissa, thank you so much. That's all the questions we have for you today, and it looks like we've got a listening audience is just listening intently. So we're so happy that you came to join us today to share these incredible insights with our Power Lounge audience. Your strategies for breaking through stigma and inclusive marketing are not just timely but absolutely essential for brands that want to create a meaningful impact in today's world and for healthcare marketers. I mean, yo, you're technically saving lives. It's so funny. Oftentimes in advertising we're like we're not saving lives here, but you all doing inclusive marketing in these ways, with these strategies that you've shared with us today literally are helping save lives. So, listeners, we're so excited.
Speaker 1:If you get the chance to check us out on YouTube, we've got a YouTube channel. We also have our podcast streaming. Anywhere and everywhere you can stream podcasts. If you have found value in today's conversation, I encourage you to check out Melissa's book Harnessing Purpose A Marketer's Guide to Inspiring Connection. We've dropped that link in the chat for our live listeners. We'll include it in the show notes as well. You can get that on Amazon to read and if you're not yet a member of together digital. I invite you to join our diverse and collaborative community of amazing women who are helping each other in all things digital and life, because they are amazing and they make every day better, even when things are hard. So that's all for this week, melissa. Thank you again for joining us. It was an absolute pleasure. Love these kinds of conversations. Thank you for doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Amy. This was amazing. What a great conversation Made my day.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad. All right, everybody. Until then, we'll see you next Friday. We'll be back again next Friday, yay, because we're back on our normal schedule, so we'll see you then. Until then, keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. Bye, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la. Produced by Heartcast Media.
