Beyond the Line with Sheryl Daija

This episode features Sheryl Daija, founder and CEO of Bridge, a global trade organization transforming how marketing, media, and technology industries approach inclusion. Sheryl's journey began in apartheid-era South Africa, profoundly shaping her lifelong commitment to equality. She leads Bridge in turning inclusion from a buzzword into a strategic business driver, creating IMAX (Inclusive Marketing Advantage Index) - the first operating system enabling executives to measure inclusion maturity across their business to unlock trust, relevance, and competitive advantage.

Key Takeaways:

• From Moral to Business Imperative
• Building WITH Culture, Not FOR Culture
• Operationalizing Inclusion
• Inclusion as Competitive Advantage
• Everyone's Responsibility
• AI and Systemic Bias

Chapters:

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to Sheryl Daija
• 00:05:30 - From Apartheid to Activism
• 00:12:15 - The Business Case for Inclusion
• 00:18:45 - Uncomfortable Stretch and Real Progress
• 00:24:30 - Introducing IMAX Framework
• 00:32:10 - Building WITH Culture vs FOR Culture
• 00:41:20 - The Unpaid DEI Labor Problem
• 00:48:55 - What Keeps Leaders from Acting
• 00:56:40 - The Walmart Juneteenth Ice Cream Moment
• 01:04:15 - AI's Inclusion Crisis
• 01:10:30 - Hope and Action Moving Forward

Comparative Analysis:

What Works: Integrated Inclusion

• Embedding inclusion in product development from the start
• Measuring inclusion as a brand metric with clear KPIs
• Building diverse teams that represent communities you serve
• Tying inclusion efforts directly to business outcomes
• Applying the same rigor to inclusion as other business practices
• Making inclusion everyone's responsibility across all roles

What Doesn't Work: Performative Inclusion

• Surface-level diversity initiatives without structural change
• Focusing only on hiring percentages and diverse slates
• Treating inclusion as separate from core business strategy
• Relying on good intentions without behavioral change
• Asking underrepresented employees to lead DEI as unpaid labor
• Going silent on values during challenging political moments

Guest Info:

Sheryl Daija Founder & CEO of Bridge - Former Chief Strategy Officer at Mobile Marketing Association. Sheryl grew up in apartheid-era South Africa and is now based in San Diego, leading the transformation of how marketing, media, and technology industries approach inclusion through measurable business strategies.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryldaija/
Website: http://www.wearebridge.com/

Quotes:

"You treasure what you measure. Inclusion needs to become a brand metric, something that is measurable and tied to business outcomes."- Sheryl Daija

"Stretching beyond your comfort zone isn’t just about leadership—it’s about building a community where growth, courage, and connection empower everyone to make real change."- Amy Vaughan

Links & Resources from This Episode

We mention a few great events and resources during the conversation. There’s a free live event in NYC on Thursday, February 12th called The System for Inclusive Growth Roadshow, with more cities coming in 2026. 

Register here: https://wearebridge.com/sig-roadshow 

We also talk about:

BRIDGE26: https://wearebridge.com/bridge26
Project Forward: https://wearebridge.co

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Why Inclusion Matters
• 2:35 Cheryl’s South Africa Origin And Lens
• 6:15 From Moral Case To Business Imperative
• 11:00 Discomfort Means Moving Power And Money
• 15:30 Market Shifts And The Cost Of Irrelevance
• 19:35 Consumer Pressure, Values, And Consistency
• 23:35 Introducing IMAX: Measuring Inclusion
• 29:00 The System For Inclusive Growth
• 33:00 Practices, Maturity, And Tying To Outcomes
• 37:20 Beyond Performative: Growth Case Studies
• 41:30 Build With Culture, Not For Culture
• 46:10 Behavior Change Across Product And Brand
• 51:10 Everyone’s Job, Not Unpaid Extra Labor

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:09

Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer at Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power, and connection. You can join the movement at TogetherIndigital.com. And today we're diving into a conversation that goes beyond comfortable platitudes and into the real work of inclusive leadership. I am thrilled to welcome Cheryl Deja, founder and CEO of Bridge, a leader who is turning inclusion from a buzzword into a strategic business driver. I had the pleasure of meeting Cheryl at last year's Onto Market World. Yes. Where she was on stage and spoke and was very, very impressed with the work that you're doing. And, you know, like you said, going, like I said, going beyond the platitudes is so important. Cheryl's journey began in a parking area in South Africa, an experience that profoundly shaped her lifelong commitment to equality and doing the uncomfortable work that real progress demands. Now she is based in what I hope is sunny San Diego, because I'm in freezing Ohio, where she is leading BRIGE, the independent global trade organization that is transforming how marketing, media, and technology industries approach inclusion. Her leadership at Bridge created IMAX, the Inclusive Marketing Advantage Index, the first operating system that enables executives to actually measure the mature and mature and inclusion across their business to unlock trust, relevance, and competitive advantage. What sets Cheryl apart isn't just her powerful origin story or her impressive credentials as thought a leadership and strategist. It's her refusal to accept surface-level DEI conversations. We are here for that. So she is here to talk about operating, operationalizing inclusion, sketch stretching beyond our comfort zones and understanding that true leadership requires clarity, courage, and conviction. Welcome to the Power Lounge, Cheryl.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21

Thank you so much for having me, Amy. I appreciate it. That was quite the introduction. I know, right? I hope to be able to live up to it.

SPEAKER_00: 2:29

You absolutely will. You absolutely will. So your story starts in South Africa. How did that experience shape not just your commitment to equality, as I stated in the intro, but specifically your approach to making inclusion a measurable business strategy rather than a moral imperative?

SPEAKER_01: 2:47

Yeah, so um, yeah, you know, certainly interesting times right now, um, and the parallels obviously between South Africa are um kind of stark and scary. Um, but I did grow up um under uh the apartheid regime in South Africa. Um, and a very at a very early age I kind of recognized what it meant to live at the expense of an entire nation. Obviously, uh, you know, we were uh, I don't think privilege quite captures how we lived. Um and you know, that spurred my personal commitment to social justice. It was not easy. I was I was I was very young, I mean I was still at school. Um, and it was not easy to be an activist, honestly, in South Africa, and and uh, you know, people would be kind of, you know, people would disappear. They would disappear people a lot. Um, and so, you know, uh you had to find ways, right, to uh to change, uh to make change and uh to um understand really, you know, kind of the complexity of what was going on in that time. Um I had the privilege of leaving South Africa um because I did not want to live under uh those conditions, and I did not realize when I left what a privilege it was that I was able to leave, right? Only kind of um after doing my own work did I, you know, kind of uh really understand the privilege of being able to leave. Um, you know, come in and I thought I'd come to this country and see something very different, and obviously it was different. Um it was not the law of the land. You know, when I arrived, um uh segregation was, you know, kind of over. Um but uh there's you know, there's obviously been a lot of, you know, there continues to be a lot of inequity um and inequality in this country, um, and you know, especially now. So uh so that coupled, I think, with the fact that I am part of a multiracial family and I've chosen to see the world through my son's eyes, um, has really challenged me to understand um what uh the way that we can do this work um and be successful at doing the work. And I believe that the way that we can do the work and be successful at doing the work is not um is not grounding it in the moral imperative, it's grounding it in the business imperative. Um at the end of the day, companies need to make, you know, need to make money, they're focused on growth. Um I believe inclusion is transformational for that growth. And so um uh so that kind of gives us a you know a business grounding um to drive inclusion as a uh as a way, as a capability, right? Um and and operationalizing it across the the business because the opportunity is huge. And so if we can you know change the narrative around it, um we can kind of get back to the work at hand, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 5:46

Yeah, yeah, I like I understand what you're saying exactly, because we can say so much about the platitudes, and there's a lot of people who've kind of ridden that coattails of like performative allyship and things like that. But when you're talking to business, it's not that personal endeavor. It's like, what are the business cases? What are the business needs or objectives? And it feels kind of cold and inhuman, but at the same time, such as business in a lot of ways, right?

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

Yeah. I mean, listen, I don't wanna I don't wanna uh pretend that I don't believe it's a moral imperative because I absolutely do. Um I just don't think that the moral imperative always wins. Um and and you know, um, in order for it to become a um a practice within organizations, we have to apply the same rigor to it as we would to any other practice that we do. And so I think that's our opportunity and advantage is how do we, you know, at the end of the day, for me, it's the work gets done. Um, you know, whether it's a moral or business side, I don't really care. I just want to make sure that the work gets done because the end result, right, is the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

So winning all around in that case. So you said that only real progress happens when we get stretched beyond our comfort. Talking in a business sense, talking about executives, you know, that can be a little bit of a challenge. So, what does that work, that uncomfortable stretch, actually look like in practice? And why do so many leaders kind of stop short of it?

SPEAKER_01: 7:12

Yeah. Um, you know, I think for me, uncomfortable stretch is when you change where power and money actually move, not just language, right? And so certainly, you know, the language of DI has been attacked. I've I've often said you can call a purple butterfly, it doesn't matter as long as the work gets done, right? So we have to we have to really think about how do we change where the power and the money move, right? Not just the language. So that's kind of the first thing. And you know, when I uh when I was looking at the questions, obviously I was thinking, you know, I wanted to, I it was interesting because my work experience, right? I was um I was uh the chief strategy officer at the at the MMA, which was the Mobile Marketing Association, um, and I remember so vividly how you know consumers had already moved to mobile, but brands kept on investing in what fit their kind of legacy models, right? What was in their marketing mix models. It felt safer. Um no one got fired, right, for sticking with what they knew. Um and so it was, you know, even though it was incredibly frustrating for us because we were like, all of your consumers are over here, why are you spending money over there? Um it took, you know, research and ROI and um, you know, advertising effectiveness studies and all of those things, right? That kind of was applying the rigor, right, to that that moment and to that business. Um, it wasn't enough that the consumers were where they were. Um, and so, you know, I think that fundamentally CEOs and brands are kind of tried and true. Um and so we have to figure out how do we break through with that same kind of rigor, right? Um uh the thing that I will say, you know, in the same way that consumers were all on mobile devices, I mean, we know despite um the attempts or despite the the wish that this wasn't the case, uh the demographics are shifting, markets are shifting. Um, and I do think that it's gonna be really important for companies to understand and start internalizing that because they will fade into irrelevance if they don't. I mean, I think that's the cautionary, you know, cautionary tale, right? So um so it's really about how can you start to think about um uh you know readying your your organization uh to um to be ready for what the future is gonna hold. Despite what the politics say, despite everything else, there's just a reality. Um, you know, we know that, right? I mean, we we we see that Gen Z is the most multiracial. I mean, I don't have to tell you, right? Most multiracial generation of our time, et cetera, et cetera. That is a reality. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 10:05

Yeah.

unknown: 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:06

And there's just a lot to like the organizational, like, there's a lot to organizational change and change in general that like definitely stop people in their tracks when it's like, you'll hear, we've always done it this way. And when you ask to move money or change systems, it feels big and it feels scary. Um, and so that definitely can get you stuck. But I think, like you're saying, the data is truly what's going to help get them out of that rut and maybe that analysis, paralysis, or fear of making actionable change. And I think, I think as consumers too, it's been really interesting to see how we are trying to choose differently and how and where and when we spend our money. So that drives it even further, not enough for you to just like post something about Facebook and Bitcha about it. You need to actually like put your money where your mouth is too. And then that will signal to the higher ups that, you know, there's got to be some changes there as well. Have you kind of seen that in like any particular cases where that's been effective? I mean, I know sometimes we do like today, it's supposed to be a blackout day. You know, we were just talking about that before we hopped on here. Are movements like this actually moving the needle and getting um recognition at the top?

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

I mean, I do think so, right? We've seen that, you know, um companies that had this, you know, kind of extreme overcorrection um at the beginning of this new kind of administration, um, that their uh their bottom line has been significantly impacted, right? I mean, CEOs are in a difficult position right now, but I genuinely believe that if you know you know what your values are and you abide by those values and you execute against those values, uh, then um and and you uh are consistent with what your internal values are, with your external communications, um, then you're you know kind of in a pretty good uh good spot to kind of continue to do this work and and move things forward. Uh power does not sit only at the top, right? Power sits with each and every one of us. And I do think that we are at the beginning of seeing the impact of that power on the economy and on specific ways that people are choosing to spend their money. I do think that it's actually kind of maybe even at this inflection point, right? Of, you know, if you if you listen to, I don't know if you listen to Scott Galloway, but if you listen to, you know, the way Scott talks, uh, this is the inflection point of when that is going to drive, I think, pretty significant change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:32

I hope so. Yeah, I agree. Awesome. Well, let's talk a little bit about IMAX. So bringing it back to like the work that's being done internally, the inclusive marketing advantage index. For members who are, you know, have tried maybe or are tired of like inclusion being treated as this nice-to-have thing, how does IMAX fundamentally change the conversation in the C-suite? Because there's a lot of frameworks out there, there's a lot of ways to come at this. How is this different?

SPEAKER_01: 12:56

Yeah. So, you know, I have a marketing background. So for me, well, the thing that, you know, as we were kind of thinking about what is our mission, um, which is really about how do you operationalize inclusion as a business practice, uh, you know, we've kind of we've brought in the learnings, as I said, we need to apply the same rigor to inclusion as we do for everything else that we're doing. And so we brought in a lot of the learnings from our business experience into IMAX. Uh and you know, you you you kind of uh you treasure what you measure. I we we have a board member, Yin, who always says that, right? Um and it's not it's actually not uh that you measure what you treasure, you really should treasure what you kind of measure you can measure, right? And so the the biggest um opportunity is how do we actually turn inclusion into a metric, into a brand metric and into something that is measurable? And so um what we wanted to do with IMAX, and we actually collaborated with uh an academy team from um a professor of marketing from Emory University, um, University of Georgia and Indiana University was to understand what are the practices that contribute to building more equity and inclusion in the marketplace, right? We've obviously had a lot of focus in the workplace when it comes to DEI efforts or inclusion efforts. And we really wanted to say, okay, you know, marketplace the workplace is foundational to marketplace impact. What are those practices within the marketplace that can drive growth? How do we turn inclusion into a growth driver and how do we actually start to measure it? So IMAX is actually part of a broader system for inclusive growth that we have been uh now talking about because we want to bring um consistent language and process and approach to this work and um kind of take away the philosophical conversation, but really, you know, grounded in what we believe, right, is transformational for growth. Um and there are actually four components, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time, but just to give you uh maybe the um, you know, kind of high-level understanding of what we think about when we think about inclusive growth. One is how do you mitigate risk in this time? We obviously have to think about that. I wish it wasn't part of the work that we're doing, but it is. Um the second is how do you unlock growth? And that's really about IMAX. The third is how do you then build the capability within your organization and make inclusion an enterprise-wide capability? Um, and then the fourth, which is more of an internal thing for us, is how do we start to foster industry alignment? So um, you know, I where we are right now is that companies are really under significant pressure, right, to grow in a market that's very fragmented. It's it's also skeptical, and people are watching really closely, right? So you have uh you have consumers that are that are um kind of more complicated and more diverse. You've got investors that are more discerning, and you've got regulators that are more active. Um so every decision from the culture you build to how your brand shows up really does signal what your company stands for, right? And so IMAX is a framework of 150 plus business practices across the organization that really helps leaders, CEOs, CFOs, CMOs, uh, you know, inclusion leaders, culture leaders, um to turn inclusion into a competitive advantage by building inclusion as a capability. Um and so that's really what our focus has been. And um it's it's a it's an it's both a framework and it's also a maturity model, right? Marketers are very uh used to maturity models. So we figured if we can start to figure to um give and equip uh individuals and companies with a way to actually measure your inclusion maturity and tie that maturity to business outcomes, then you can understand what are the practices that are gonna contribute to building your brand equity, strengthening performance, um, and ultimately reducing risk in this moment. Uh so you know, we're pretty excited about IMAX. We're starting to roll it out now, but it really is the first time that you can start to measure inclusion as a brand metric, you know, if you will.

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

That's really smart. I love it. Love it. So a lot of our members are navigating companies and organizations where DEI initiatives feel either performative or pretty much just dulled out. Um what is the difference between companies that successfully operationalize inclusion using things like your IMAX framework versus those who kind of are stuck in that surface level conversation still, or again have just chosen to go silent on it, which feels like a lot of folks.

unknown: 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

Um so, you know, I will say that um that there are a lot of companies that have chosen to go silent but not stop the work. Um, so um, which, you know, for me again, I wish they were loud and proud about doing the work. Um, but doing the work is more important. And so, you know, um trying to stay under the radar, uh, trying to do the right thing, continuing to do the right thing so that they can focus on their business without a tax is understandable, right? In this moment. Um, and so um I do think that more I do think there are more companies that are actually doing the work uh versus having completely walked away from it. Um how they're doing it, I think is really, you know, kind of the question, right? So for me, the difference is growth. Uh companies that move beyond performative inclusion and really integrate it into how they build their brand, how they build their products, their customer relationships that drive performance will kind of bring longevity to the practice of inclusion and make it, you know, um authentic, right? And also sustainable. I mean, if you look at companies uh like ELF Beauty or Sephora, right, they they're experiencing double-digit growth as a result of their inclusion efforts, not because they're doing performative inclusion, but because their inclusion, uh their inclusion efforts are integrated, uh integrated and they're both intentional and authentic, right? Um and you know, I love actually uh when I when I kind of talk about this, always it always kind of reminds me um of one of our CMOs who are on the board, uh Joy Allen Altamira, and Altamira, and she says that um, well she said at our Bridge 25 retreat last year, she said you need to build cult you need to build with culture, not for culture. Okay. And I think, I mean, it's obvious, right? But the nuance is incredibly powerful and game-changing, I think, for companies when you really understand what that means. So, you know, that allows us to kind of go uh move away from, well, we need diverse slates, and not that we don't, we need diverse slates of, you know, um of you know where we hire, or we need to get to percentages. Start to think about how do you develop full, you know, with culture, not full culture. And that means that you have to have that culture internally integrated into your organization, right? Um, and that means that you need to have diversity on your teams. Um but not because we, you know, we think that it's a good moral imperative, but it's because it's just smart business, right? I mean, it's just smart business. If you're going after a community, make sure that your your teams represent the community that you're gonna that you're looking to serve, because they know that community better than you do if you're not part of it, right? So um, so I do think that you know the big difference is growth and an understanding of what it means to build with culture, not full culture. Um, and what does that mean? And that is really kind of, you know, I c I feel like I I repeat myself a lot, but that's why we believe that you know you need to operationalize inclusion. If if when I talk to companies right now, my message to them is in order to actually reduce your vulnerabilities, do more. Don't do less. You know what I mean? Because if it's part of your business and it's totally you know integrated, um you you know, people can't find it, right, if they're looking for it because it's it's fundamental to your business growth. And by the way, uh, you know, I mean, I would I would imagine that growth is the most important thing. So figure out how you can tie that inclusion to business outcomes.

SPEAKER_00: 21:44

I love it. And it's such a subtle but brilliant mindset shift. You're right, the for culture versus with culture for maintaining relevance, for finding community, which is all things that brands have wanted to do, but it's always felt like it's been force feeding, right? Because they're doing it for. versus with and yeah there's if even from a marketing standpoint that's such a smart obviously spoken well by a CML.

SPEAKER_01: 22:08

Yeah and exactly who you know I love joy but um but it really you know it it it the nuance is just so incredibly simple yet very very powerful so absolutely uh so you work across marketing media and technology industries um that often claim to value diversity but struggle with that meaningful change what patterns have you observed that keep these industries moving beyond intentions and actual to actual outcomes I think this kind of dovetails nicely off of what we were just talking about but any other builds that you have yeah I mean it was not you know I think I mean it's great to have good intentions right and I do think that a lot of companies certainly after the murder of George Floyd their intentions were in the right place but good intentions don't always drive successful implementation right um and unfortunately most times as we saw and have seen they end up with performative um activities that are not sustainable or scalable right um and so you to to really do inclusion work well and to tap into the opportunity by the way um for growth you it's gonna require a behavior a behavioral change right I mean right all the all all the most successful things ultimately uh require you to change some form of behavior right um and I think a recognition that inclusion um is a competitive advantage for long-term growth and you know back to what we were saying not just a moral imperative right so there has to be that in that that realization and that awareness and that consciousness um that is brought to inclusion um and there has to be that change in behavior it's not about politics it's not about what you believe it's not about policy it's about where is the opportunity and understanding that inclusion can be a huge competitive advantage and then how do you change uh how do you prepare your organization for that change in behavior so you can start to embed inclusion in you know your product development right I mean there are so many I think there are so many gaps right from a product development perspective and we've seen when inclusion is embedded um in product development and you see yourself in the brand right how that just builds incredible you know brand equity and loyalty and I I won't get into it but we actually did some research um uh uh last year about the impact of inclusion on purchase intent yeah and it was on par with pricing strategies so it was a it was a 3x impact um and it was literally on par with pricing strategies and kind of yet like feature benefit strategies. So it you know when you start to kind of I think that's part of what's been missing in the industry and that's our you know kind of responsibility is to show the impact that it has on purchase intent to show the impact that it has on engagement and you know those are the those are the maybe the the the the rigor that has been missing in this work and obviously we you know we hope to to bring it but um you know you have to move beyond good intentions right you have to change behavior yeah it's these little baby steps but it's like all significant meaningful steps too so I think I I'm honestly excited about it.

SPEAKER_00: 25:28

I'm happy to be out of the performative era of DEI for the all the changes in administration and how like it all feels it just kind of felt like it was like a sinking ship. I actually think it's a little bit more of a a dark horse you know I think it's got its chance to come back and I think it's going to be grounded in a lot of the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01: 25:45

Yeah you know Amy I think you make such a good point um and it's something that I have said before which is every but just let you know let's just set aside the politics for the moment because it kind of doesn't matter. Every single practice always evolves. I mean when you talk look you know you talk to marketers all the time ask CMOs how many times they re-org in a year, right? I mean they can go through three or four reorgs in one year. It is an evolution you figure out what works and what doesn't and then you you know you double down and you uh prioritize what's working and you change what isn't. I think that despite the politics um DEI practices inclusion practices again whatever you want to call them was at the point where they would have organically started to evolve anyway and just by the way um we're not saying anything that most DEI leaders haven't said in their organizations and I would say skilled DEI leaders haven't been saying that it's attached to performance and it's attached to business outcomes. I think that there was not necessarily that behavior change so everyone kind of was so stuck on the fact that there was this moral imperative and we needed to get X percentage of people and you know the focus was there. The skilled EI leaders though were always you know have always known that this is about potential potential growth. We just now have the opportunity to drive that message home in a stronger way. And I think CEOs that are open to hearing it are going to be the ones that are most successful kind of in the future. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:19

So I'm gonna jump on one of my soapboxes here for just a second. I don't know how much is happening anymore but um a lot of our members myself included have often been asked to lead inclusion efforts on top of their regular roles within companies and this is where I get a little chapped because it's like we didn't create the problem but you're gonna assign us to do more work for free to address and fix the problem that wasn't that wasn't our creation. So how do you advise professionals who maybe aren't at the table at leadership who want to drive some meaningful change um do so without becoming basically unpaid DEI labor. Because it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_01: 27:58

And it makes sense it is a real thing and it you know it's it's it's the same as right like racism is not a is not a black issue right it's not black people to fix. It's for you know it's for white people to fix. And you know it's kind of the same thing right and I think what we saw after the boon of George Floyd was um you know okay well you're a woman or you're a person of color and you're doing marketing why don't you just start to do you know to DEI and it kind of misses the point right you don't uh DEI are are very skilled professionals that come at the work with a very you know um uh nuanced lens to to the world and you know being a woman or a person of color certainly makes you more conscious and aware but it doesn't make you a DI leader right um so you know I hear you and I do think that uh that has been you know certainly a challenge right um that being said I would say that inclusion is everyone's responsibility yes um and it's actually not the role of women or people of color even the DI leaders again whatever their titles might be at this moment um it they they certainly can uh create the strategy and they can create the understanding and the education around the opportunity but at the every at the at the um um at the bottom line is that to do it successfully it needs to be intentionally again as we've said embedded as core to your role whatever your role is everyone should be asking how do I use inclusion as a lever to drive growth to create new markets and to increase uh uh loyalty the conversation should not be about whose job it is it should be about how do we tap into this as a huge opportunity um and as a lever for growth and so I think that the way that we solve this is by saying you know again is by like not thinking of it as outside of our jobs but rather as integral to them right and whether you're a CEO or CFO or CMO if you're in marketing if you're in uh you know if you're in uh uh research and insights um if you're in product development if you're in AI specifically right now I mean you know we should really be talking about how do you you you put it uh uh inclusion at the center of your AI you know models and development everyone should be asking that same question um because that's how you know you kind of figure out how do you use it to drive growth and so we're not there yet but that's the hope. Um and I do think that that's how you you know you you change the mindset from it being your job to being everyone's job.

SPEAKER_00: 30:42

Yeah a hundred percent absolutely love that answer.

SPEAKER_01: 30:45

So the answer really is no we just need systems and and inclusion's everyone's job yeah you know you're obviously and again it's like okay but then you know I'm happy to do it but it's gonna be integral to my job and therefore need resources, budget, etc so that we can be successful at executing against it, you know, as and as a driver of growth not because it feels good. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 31:10

I mean I'm just gonna vent for a second because I feel like our listeners could relate is that like we I was a creative director working 60 hours a week with two small children at home and I had such a passion for this obviously I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I didn't. And you know they were like we need a logo for the group and it needs to be well designed and we need to get reviews and approvals scheduled I they were making such a big deal of all of this stuff and I was like why does any of that actually matter what matters is the conversations the concerns that are being brought up in the space that we're creating like not how pretty the logo is and what the mission vision is and where are the objectives where are the goals you know yeah well you know I mean I think that um you know when when when structure doesn't exist it's har you know you kind of try to find your center um and you do it on the things that are familiar to you right so that's kind of like okay standard operating procedure let's have a mission mission and vision let's have a logo right and so you kind of get stuck on um on the familiar as opposed to you know challenging what doesn't exist. So paper work absolutely I mean they spent months on that I was like are we are we gonna have a meeting? Are we gonna kick this off like any day now?

SPEAKER_01: 32:27

I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure the cut the color was really important too I honestly don't even remember what it looked like I blocked it out.

SPEAKER_00: 32:35

But I do remember the conversations and I do remember the opportunities that it had that helped because I didn't even stay but like the CFO was was greatly impressed by the work that we did, the data that we brought, the conversations that we had and held and um they ended up working to he made it his goal to you know reach pay equity for the whole company by the within two years and he did it. And then a foundation that would actually help folks that maybe couldn't get into the industry as easily get scholarships out of high school to go to college to study these things and I mean just a lot of really great stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 33:11

So it's not all in vain folks don't worry yeah you know I it just often I I'll I'll be on my sub box for a second but often I wonder what are we what are we really arguing about? This is not that hard. No right it's just not that hard. Everyone deserves equity everyone you know I mean it's just it's just not that and by the way it's good for business when you're you know you've got seven trillion dollars of buying power from underrepresented communities what are we arguing about? Do you want part of it or don't you? Because if you do then do it you know then there's lots of opportunities to get this right um and and to tap into that buying power right so what are we really arguing about? There's money to be spent if you want the money to if you want that money let's talk about how you get it I will just answer the question and then ask you it because it goes really nicely into our next question.

SPEAKER_00: 34:04

To me I think it's fear and a potential loss of power like perceived loss of power. So like when you're talking about you know all these things how well documented inclusion works that there are people who will still persist to resist and what's really holding leadership back? Has anybody actually gotten all open and vulnerable with you about what those barriers truly are for them or the rest of the organization that are holding them back?

SPEAKER_01: 34:32

I don't know. I mean you know listen inclusion is not a zero sum game right I mean it's just you again as you have to really believe and change your behavior and uh I would hope you know if you're a CEO that you you recognize that you cannot lead out of fear. I mean certainly we're seeing a lot of that now it's not getting us anyway right you have to have courage you have to have conviction you have to have clarity and you have to make decisions based on what's best for your brand and the communities that you serve right so um yeah I I I don't I don't know I I you know it's a it's a lot of excuses um not a lot of substance as to why you wouldn't kind of do it right inclusion has always been about everyone right so that includes you guys that includes everybody right there's there's a lot of miss you know there's a lot of misconceptions out there you know which hopefully we can try to you know take that narrative back but um you know listen I think that you know thinking about like you kind of what you said and maybe what your next question is in or what your question is in terms of what's holding leadership back and you know and if I always like to say okay you know we can blame everyone else but what can we do differently right so how do we take responsibility to try and help not have them hold back or how do we help them break those barriers right and so I tend to believe that leaders don't necessarily need more belief right when you talk to them they they're like yeah we do we know uh we believe we're just not sure you know so uh so we've commented from the okay well listen we're gonna give some more infrastructure to this right um and we are gonna help you kind of move away from the inertia um and from the fear uh and from the fact that maybe there has been uh an uh an absence of a clear roadmap right um but at the end of the day um and so we're gonna provide you with that infrastructure right and that's why we created the system of inclusive growth that's why we created IMAX because we kind of are taking you know we're giving solutions to what we've heard uh um as you know what the barriers are right um but I think ultimately what leaders need to understand and that's every leader uh that you know is listening not listening maybe your your listeners can take it you know today's leader um is that I believe uh genuinely believe that to break the barriers we need to move inclusion out of the margins into the mechanics of the business yeah and when we do that and we embed it into performance and governance and growth and you know all of these opportunities uh we start to have a very different conversation um we can you know we can uh move past this fear which I you know is hard to understand maybe it's even just lack of courage at this moment in time um because there are just you know they're just huge opportunities and so let's let's focus on the performance let's focus on the growth we don't even have to have other conversations about it. Yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense all right so you have built bridge uh it's an independent global organization why wasn't independence or why was independence critical to your mission and how does it enable you to push the kind of change that you um that might make some industry players uncomfortable um yeah you know I mean it's a it's a it's a complicated thing because we're an industry trade organization so we you know we're as independent obviously we're independent but we also serve the global industry the global marketing industry and so we come to the work obviously with a responsibility to ensure that um you know we understand the challenges and we um and we we see clearly um all of the things that are happening but I do think what it does allow us to do is have a voice in um places where employees of organizations might not have that same voice right um they might have uh marketing communications guidelines that they can you know that they have to abide by and respect uh they might have you know moments that are you know just too complicated right um to uh unravel and so uh so I think that as a kind of industry group and as a voice for this work um and certainly as a voice for uh leaders that are doing this work it allows us to have some of the more difficult conversations that might you might not have be able to have if you're you know internal to an to a company so yeah awesome yeah all right for leaders who generally want to mature their inclusion practices but don't even know where to start beyond the traditional training what's the first operational shift that they could make I feel like I'm gonna repeat myself it's okay we got to reinforce it make sure that I really I really do I feel like I'm gonna repeat myself but I would say stop thinking of inclusion as a philosophy or even as optional and start thinking about it as a competitive capability for growth. Like you have to start right if you really are genuinely um interested in inclusion you've got to change your behavior you've got to start you've got to change how you're thinking about it and don't get caught up in the ph in the philosophy or the politics of it and really start thinking about it as a competitive capability.

SPEAKER_00: 39:55

And that can be such a distraction you're so right because it strips away all the BS and all of the the drama and all of the polarization and just brings it back to what it's supposed to be about. Yeah I love that yeah again it bears repeating so don't even worry about it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:11

We'll keep saying it until the years I feel like I can I feel like I'm you know kind of beating a drum but but it it as you say it it bears repeating because it is the thing it's just such a huge opportunity I just wish you know I wish I could talk to every CEO of every Fortune 500 company and just say to them you're thinking about this wrong this is just a huge opportunity and you know let's just give it a shot right just think about it differently.

SPEAKER_00: 40:38

We need to find a way to go the marketer route and just give them a little FOMO. Yeah exactly find a way to create some inclusion FOMO.

SPEAKER_01: 40:46

All right my last question before we move on to the power round is looking at marketing media and tech industries today what gives you hope and what keeps you up at night um about where we're headed with inclusion this is a really difficult question um because I am actually an eternal um optimist but I have um I have struggle struggle to see um hope in the lack of you know courageous leadership that we're seeing and so um so I'm gonna choose to focus on the opportunity to change the conversation um and not necessarily focus on whether or not there's hope or you know or no hope, right? Because I believe that there's enough people out there that believe in this and that we can you know again I'm an eternal optimist that we can change the conversation and that this you know this too shall pass. I think also you know that what keeps me up at night probably is more than what you know it might is a bigger focus for me than obviously what gives me hope because what keeps me up at night spurs our work right and it allows us to keep um you know thinking and iterating and making sure that we've got the right you know the right answers. But um I would say I would say a few things. Number one is you know how do we help leaders understand that a commitment to values um is a good thing right it's just it's just a good thing right it's just it's good business it's good for your employees it's good for your consumers doesn't you know it's just a good thing right like you need to really internalize who you are and your values because that allows you to um in hard and difficult moments which we are surely in it allows you to communicate and it allows you to stand by you know who you are and who you and what you believe in despite right what might kind of come out from it. Right. In the long term it's going to be the thing that really grounds companies so um so I you know I kind of think about how do we help them. I think that the the the the the thing is how do we kind of move companies away from this naivete that inclusion is option optional and that there aren't consequences without it um because because they are and we've seen what those consequences are and so start to think about how do you how do you do it right as opposed to kind of walking away from it right so those are the kind of things. The other piece I was thinking a lot and I've been thinking a lot about this is the um and this really does keep me up at night is this you know just incredible urgency and like um almost you know kind of insane urge to rush to build AI models um without confronting the systemic biases um that exist. And I believe that we are significantly underestimating the reputational risk of doing this. I think that there is a huge potential risk to uh to reputation for brands. By rushing and using AI to do just about everything, right? Whether it's hiring, whether it is creating ads. I mean, we we know that like human error, right, has allowed some pretty egregious mistakes from a marketing perspective. We've seen a lot of them. So now we're kind of relying on a model that we know is intrinsically has intrinsic uh systemic biases to make those decisions for us. And I I I genuinely, genuinely believe um that we are rushing to uh that we are rushing uh without being intentional and conscious and aware of the potential reputational risks that are, I think, inevitable if we continue to do that. So I know that we're kind of thinking about how do we even start maybe an inclusive AI development committee. I hear too much about what AI can do for companies and not enough about how we're gonna build those models. Um and so I think we should all be very afraid that we're rushing um into you know into building these models. And I I would say that we should pause um and understand it and really you know think about it more pragmatically. There's not there's not an urgency, right? Like we're we're we're we're creating, you know, kind of a um our own timeline on this. There's you know, yes, there is huge opportunity in AI, it's transformational, but we've seen specifically, right, in the media and marketing industry when we have built structure too fast, the problems that it has created afterwards. Absolutely. And so we you know, we we really have an opportunity to kind of go, okay, breathe, pause, let's think about it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:54

Agreed. I hear you.

SPEAKER_01: 45:55

I don't know if that answered your question, but it did.

SPEAKER_00: 45:58

It was wonderful. Thank you. And I feel you on both of those fronts. All right, we've got um our power round questions. If anybody from the live listening audience wants to jump into the chat and leave a question, you absolutely can. Um, if not, we'll go through these and then we'll we'll get you all back to the rest of your day. What is the most uncomfortable conversation you've had um that led to a big big break, big breakthrough?

SPEAKER_01: 46:22

Yeah, you know, so I was saying I was thinking a lot about that, right? Um I mean, it's a great question, by the way. And and and I appreciated the question. Um and so um, and I was thinking a lot about that. And um uh so I'm gonna share, I'm gonna share a story, and I would say that it not it's not necessarily maybe the kind of traditional uh sense of conversation, but it's still communication. So I kind of figured that I had a little leeway in how I answered this. Um but I will say that um it was a month after we launched Bridge. So we launched Bridge in April of 2022, and it was in May of 2022. Um and I'm not sure if your listeners will remember this or if you will, and I and I I I'm not picking on the brand, I'm just sharing a story. Um, but it was when Walmart launched their Juneteenth ice cream. Oh I don't remember if I said that, yeah. Okay, so Walmart launched a Juneteenth ice cream, you know, again, good intentions, right? Um to uh to honor Juneteenth, obviously, you know, not good, not great execution. Um uh but you know, it was a real kind of David and Goliath moment for us because we um we decided to write an open letter uh to Walmart. Um and uh as with everything that we do, we come at this from how can we help you, right? We're not looking to name and shame. This is hard work, right? People are gonna make mistakes, but we are uh looking to help, right? And so these are the things so we you know, we wrote an open letter uh in and and the approach was you know, here's how we can help you kind of rethink um uh this type of you know activity. Because if you if you think about it, and again, I'm not I you know I don't I'm I'm not picking on Walmart, but I think it's such a huge opportunity for learning because if you think about how many people that product from product development all the way to the fact that it ended up on the shelves, yeah, how many people saw that, right? That's an infrastructure challenge, right? It's not a bad intentions challenge. It's a it's a fact that there is an infrastructure, there's a gap, right? There's a gap somewhere, right? Um, so we wrote so we wrote this uh this open letter. It got picked up by the associated press. I think we ended up getting like a billion impressions. By the way, we've never got that since then. Uh, with any of our give us more ice cream.

unknown: 48:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 48:55

But we like literally, we got like this, you know, a billion impressions. It really kind of opened up the opportunity for us to have these kinds of conversations. Uh, we we did not anticipate it. Uh, Walmart ultimately did take the ice cream off their shelves. We don't take credit for that because uh there was incredible activity on social media uh that really, you know, I think spurred that action. Hopefully we get a little, you know, maybe we get a tiny little bit of credit. Um but at the end of the day, what it did was it allowed us to kind of be courageous in those moments. Um, you know, could we have done it behind the scenes? Absolutely, which we now have made some decisions when things like this happen. We actually do reach out. We've helped a lot of brands now behind the scenes when things happen. Um because that's what that's who we want to be. We want to be an organization that um is ready to help when, you know, because we know mistakes are gonna be made.

unknown: 49:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 49:55

Yeah, and putting them on blast won't earn that trust right away.

SPEAKER_01: 49:57

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. So um, you know, so I apologize to Walmart that we did the open letter and we didn't kind of come to behind the scenes, but it was kind of uh breakthrough. We learned a lot also, um, because you know, we we we we were very excited about the about our opportunity to do this, but we also didn't take into account the fact that some of our members worked with Walmart, right? So it's not it's not that they disagreed necessarily with the position, but probably we should have done a better job of just giving them a heads up, you know. So we you know, so we learn from our own, you know, we learn from our own unfortunate conversation, and that's how we grow, and that's how we, you know, we've kind of matured ourselves, right? We were one month old doing this kind of crazy, as I said, you know, David and Goliath moment. Um but it did, it was important for I think everyone, right? Because it was it was a a teaching moment, it was a learning moment, um, it was a time when um we could have those conversations, and I just wish we could like have those conversations now, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:06

Agreed. Love it.

SPEAKER_01: 51:07

Yeah, all right. Finish this sentence. Real inclusion feels like intentionally valuing all people for their differences.

SPEAKER_00: 51:15

Love it. That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_01: 51:17

And I would put all in capital, like all.

SPEAKER_00: 51:20

I love it. I love it. Yeah, we'll do that on the subtitles. All caps.

SPEAKER_01: 51:26

All caps, intentionally valuing all people for their differences.

SPEAKER_00: 51:31

Yeah. Um, what is one leadership myth about diversity and inclusion that needs to die?

SPEAKER_01: 51:37

Uh that it's not mutually exclusive from meritocracy. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

I dig it. Dang it. Oh, this has been so fantastic, Cheryl. Thank you so much. You've brought a lot of clarity, courage, and candor to the conversation. I love your commitment to moving beyond the comfortable conversations and showing real, measurable, actual um change and inclusion can actually be what moves the needle for not just consumers, but also the industry needs and business needs. So for everyone listening, I encourage you to connect with Cheryl on LinkedIn and learn more about Bridge and the IMAX Index. Um, this is the kind of work that transforms not just organizations but entire industries. What were you gonna say, Cheryl?

SPEAKER_01: 52:18

No, I I said please, everyone should should uh connect. And um, I'm just you know, I I'm very kind of grateful for the opportunity to talk about this work. As you can see, I get a little animated about it, but I'm really passionate and I just genuinely believe in what we're doing. So I just I I appreciate the opportunity to uh to be able to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 52:38

You need it, you need the optimism, you need the passion because it's not easy work. So can you start?

SPEAKER_01: 52:43

We're not going, we're not going away, and we're gonna continue to uh uh to drive against this in uh in the best possible way, you know, supporting companies, bringing solutions and doing it so that, like, you know, as I say, we can respect everyone for their differences.

SPEAKER_00: 52:59

Absolutely. Yep. And to our listeners in our together digital community, if today's conversation resonated with you, remember we're here to support your growth and leadership. Um, whether you're working to drive inclusion in your organization or just stretch beyond your own comfort zone. You're not alone in the work that you're doing. You have a tremendous community of women right behind you. You can find them on Slack, um, you can find them at our events. And if you're not a member yet, we encourage you to check us out and find that community so that you can start to leverage the knowledge, power, and connections of this wonderful collaborative of women who really just choose to show up for themselves and for one another. Um, and you know, we get to have great conversations like this in the power lounge, but we also have masterclasses, peer groups, and professional development opportunities. Cheryl, thank you again. It's been such a pleasure talking with you. I really appreciate you. As soon as I saw you talking on stage, it's like we have to have her in the power lounge. So here we are, yeah. So happy to have you here with us and being able to introduce you to the community for those who couldn't attend.

SPEAKER_01: 53:54

So yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 53:58

My pleasure. All right, everyone, that's all we've got for you today. We hope to see you again soon. Until next time, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing. We'll see you soon.