40: From Vine to Glass, A Journey Through the Iconic Wines of Masi

In Episode 40, join Andrew Sainsbury (Regional Manager, Masi Agricola) and Anshu from Wineitupanotch for a deep dive into the iconic wines of the Masi portfolio. 

Masi Agricola is a prominent producer from the Veneto region of Italy, with expansive holdings in the Veneto and beyond.

In this episode, we take a look at the Masi empire, the wines that define the Veneto region and other areas nearby, the grapes that are important in these wines and very specifically, the appassimento method - a method of winemaking that has really been championed by Masi.

This is an informative, jam-packed episode that you don't want to miss!

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Transcript

Anshu: 
Hey, Andrew, thanks so much for joining me today on The Wineitupanotch Podcast. I appreciate it. 

Andrew: 
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Anshu: 
For those who wouldn't necessarily know - we met when I went to a trade event and tasted your portfolio of wines. And I thought to myself, this is a really important producer and a great set of wines that I really want to bring to my audience. So I'm really glad that we were able to make that happen. 

And without further ado, I will just share that you are the regional manager for Ontario, Canada, for all of Masi. 

Andrew: 
You got it right. I prefer “Masi Guy in Ontario”, but I think that's what's on my business card, which is like a little bit close to the “assistant to the regional manager” joke from The Office, which I like to make sometimes.

But, yeah, Regional Manager for Ontario and I have a boss who looks after all of Canada who's based out of Quebec. 

Anshu: 
Now, you have to, if you're a wine lover, be living under a rock to not know Masi, it's such a huge name. But before we start talking about Masi, maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, Andrew.

Andrew: 
Sure. (I was) born in Toronto. My father was in the wine business, as was his father and his father before him. So I guess that makes me fourth generation but fell into it a little later on; went to university for history of science, and economics, very boring, at least the economics part, and then,worked in film and photography in my 20s, and then was looking for a career change and wine seemed a natural place to go from there. 

I started taking some courses, first at IWEG where we met, and then did my certified sommelier and went to the U. S. for a certified wine educator course as well - and actually just got back into education and did the Italian Wine Scholar. And then, yeah, first I worked for a small consignment agency for a little while in Toronto, then did some time in Prince Edward County, getting my hands dirty in a winery, and then, was at another larger consignment agency, and then have been at Masi for about seven years now.

[00:02:00] 

Anshu: 
Amazing! So you've got, cradle to grave, all the experience. 

Andrew: 
I guess so. Yeah - trying to make up for a bit of lost time. If I could do it all over again, I think winemaking. It would be a very cool route, but, I’ve got a young family and it'd be hard to drag them around the world to get the experience and to do that, but all the respect in the world to winemakers and the people that are growing the grapes, which is fascinating.

And that's the most important step of the whole process. And I just, uh, get to show these beautiful wines to people and try to tell the stories as best I can and get to drink them every once in a while too. 

Anshu: As I say, life is long, so there's still an opportunity, I think, for you to do what you want to do!

And you do tell the stories really well. So why don't we get right into it? How about you tell me a little bit about Masi? 

Andrew: So Masi is a Venetian producer from Veneto province in Northeast Italy. But as we'll get into, I'm sure, some projects are a little outside of that as well. 

A family owned company, last year was a big year. It was the 250th anniversary of the first vintage in the history of the Boscaini family, who are the family behind the Masi brand. 

The name Masi actually comes from the name of the first vineyard that the Boscaini family harvested - a little vineyard called the “Valle de Masi” - the Little Valley of Masi - in the heart of Valpolicella Classico. It goes back a ways. Certainly there are some Italian families with longer history, but for us, here in Canada, it's quite exceptional….. now into the ninth generation of Boscainis.

So Sandro Boscaini, president of Masi, an absolute legend, also known as Mr. Amarone, traveled quite a bit to the market in the nineties, grew Masi from really a drop in the bucket to one of the leading premium Italian wine suppliers across Canada. And I think it's really interesting. And not just building a profile of Masi, but the Veneto as a whole.

[00:04:00]

I don't know if you've been to any big wine shops in the States lately, but the first time I went in there after starting to work with these wines, I was very surprised by the lack of space given to the Veneto section compared with the LCBO or the SAQ, in which Veneto if not the leader, certainly gets as much shelf space as Tuscany, and more than Piedmont.

So I think a big part of that is Sandro's efforts in the market. In the nineties, he made many trips here, spreading the word and sharing these beautiful wines with people. Now he's doing a little less traveling but his son and daughter are involved with the company and they're - his daughter, Alessandro's son - working for Masi. 

He has a son named Sandro, who represents the ninth generation of Boscianis. It’s a wonderful family story. And, yeah, it's, like you said, a well known name in Canada. Many people are surprised to know that 30 percent roughly of Masi's production is sold in Canada.

So Masi exports to over 100 countries worldwide, but Canada is the primary export market in terms of volume. That's why I have my job and we're very grateful to be in the position we are with the LCBO and the people of Ontario and Canada who seem to really enjoy the wines.

Anshu: 
That's so interesting. I have to say, I didn't really realize that we were one of the biggest markets for Masi in terms of export. 

Andrew: 
Absolutely. And I'm sure the Italian diaspora has to do with that. I love to meet older Italian (usually!) gentlemen who like to tell me about their homemade wines, but they begrudgingly admit after a few minutes that, yeah, when I run out of my homemade wines, I buy Masi sometimes….I might, yeah, at Christmas time we have Masi on the table! I think there's no better seal of approval than hearing that from somebody who's from the old country and gets their hands dirty every fall with grapes that are shipped from California or whatever.

Anshu: Well, you said a couple of things I think I want to zero in on. So one, I have to say again, maybe because of the prominence with which I've seen the Masi product here in Ontario and Canada, I would not have thought it was 

[00:06:00] 

a family owned company. So that's really interesting because it's a large company with lots of products on offer. And it's beautiful to know that it's, you know, nine generations in now. So you're really supporting a family company if you're drinking Masi. 

You also mentioned “Mr. Amarone”. So I think that's a nice entrant into the product line. And you also talked a little bit about the Veneto. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about Masi's fairly substantial product line. 

Andrew: 
Sure. Yeah. There's a lot of branches on the tree. Let's start with the core range - you mentioned Amarone. Masi first and foremost sees itself as an Amarone producer, making five different Amarones, which I believe is the most of any producer and that's really, the heart and soul of the company. 

Yeah. Amarone and appassimento, of course, Amarone being a wine made 100 percent from appassimento….that's really the nuts and bolts. But from there, ‘Campofiorin’, which is another real pillar, the best selling Masi wine worldwide, despite being far from the least expensive.

‘Campofiorin’ was the original "ripasso" on the market, the first ripasso to be commercialized. The first vintage, 1964, we had the 50th anniversary of that a few years ago. No longer technically a ripasso, it's now what we call a double fermentation wine.

We can get into that a little bit later if you like, but important to mention - Ripasso, of course, now its own DOC, so we're no longer a Ripasso wine technically, but, the LCBO categorizes us there and for most consumers, it's a good touch point for them to understand ‘Campofiorin’ but there's certainly more to the story.

And then ‘Bonacosta’ is our Valpolicella Classico. So those three wines are all the exact same blend - Corvina, Rondinella, Molinara - but differentiated in terms of the appassimento, so no appassimento for the Valpolicella, a hundred percent of the grapes undergo appassimento for the ‘Costasera’ and a portion of the grapes undergo appassimento for the ‘Campofiorin’.

[00:08:00]

So that's sort of the three heavy hitter, classic wines of the Valpolicella. 

We make some Bardolino, some Soave, some Lugana. You don't see much of that in Ontario at the moment - of course (its) available for private order, and perhaps we'll get some interest from the LCBO down the road….but those are neighbors to Valpolicella, so important to mention. 

We make ‘Masianco’, a white wine made mostly from Pinot Grigio. So that's, let's say, the sort of the core range of the Masi products you'll see on the shelf of the LCBO.

We also have our ‘Masi Modelo’ range, which is produced from a vineyard that we own just outside of the Veneto - so now into Friuli Venezie Giulia and Trentino Alto Adige, so we've got some stuff going on in each of those three regions in Northeast Italy.

Back to the Masi Modelo, we make a merlot and a pinot grigio from that vineyard that's just outside of Veneto. The ‘Masianco’ comes from there as well. There's actually another wine called ‘Grandarella’ that's a hundred percent refosco that gets full appassimento.

From there, under also the Masi Modelo line, is our Prosecco. That is produced at a winery - Canevel - which Masi acquired 60 percent of in a joint venture back in 2016. So Canevel is another family owned producer, right in Valdobbiadene, the heart of Prosecco with production historically very well regarded in Italy, but did not have much of an export footprint beyond that.

So they entered the joint,venture with Masi so now Masi is in the Prosecco game, which - testament to Sandro, I think we could have been involved there earlier, purchasing some juice and slapping a Masi label on it - but for Sandro to have a foothold in the region was important before getting into the Prosecco game. The Masi Modelo Prosecco is brut, dry, delicious! 

And then, I'll mention Argentina briefly. 

Anshu: 
Yes, please do. 

[00:10:00]

Andrew: 
Masi has a property called ‘Masi Tupungato’ in the small town of Tupungato, which is located in the Uco Valley sub-region of Mendoza.

Uco Valley is an up and coming spot for premium Malbec production, but there, we are working with not just Malbec but also brought over some Corvina. So Masi was the first to plant Corvina in Argentina. And we’re working with some Pinot Grigio as well.

So three wines are produced there. We have our ‘Paso Doble’, which is mostly Malbec with a little bit of Corvina. The Corvina gets a short appassimento and then the two are combined for a double fermentation. ‘Paso Blanco’, not currently in the Ontario market, but in Quebec. elsewhere in Canada- that's a Pinot Grigio/ Torrontes and then Corbec is sort of the top wine from the Masi Tupungato estate. That is mostly Corvina, and some Malbec. Both of those get a full appassimento in the Amarone style. The humidity in Argentina is much lower than Italy so the appassimento is much shorter there. 

But, beautiful wines from Argentina. Those are organically grown.

The next piece of the puzzle I'll mention are what we call the historic Venetian estates. Masi partners with some historic estates, some noble families. The most well known would be the Serego Alighieri family, the direct descendants of Dante Alighieri, the poet. Dante was expelled from Tuscany during his lifetime, ended up in northeast Italy, spent some time in Verona, and his son purchased the property in 1353, that the family still lives on.

So that's the Serego Alighieri Estate, La Forasteria. If you ever make it to Masi, that's where you could stay. There's 10 rooms, a beautiful property, as you can imagine. It’s just what you'd picture if you're, you know, daydreaming of a gorgeous Italian villa, that's neighbors to Masi.

But, since the 70s, Masi has done the winemaking, and the sales and marketing for the Serego Alighieri family and their historic vineyard holdings. 

And then one more I'll mention - the Bossi Fedrigotti family - another noble family based north of Valpolicella in Trento.

[00:12:00] 

Similar to the joint venture with Serego Alighieri, Masi does the winemaking for the Bossi Fedrigotti family and their historic vineyard holdings. 

So that was a very long answer to a short question, but hopefully that gives you an idea of all the different irons in the fire, so to speak.

Anshu: 

And I think we might've missed one because I don't think you covered Tuscany! 

Andrew: 

Okay. Yeah. The newer Tuscan property is an extension of the Serego Alighieri projects. So given that Dante was originally from Tuscany, some property was acquired there. More recently we're making a red in the Montecucco DOC, as well as a Vermentino and those, uh, farmed organically as well, I gather it's gorgeous. Just south of the river from Brunello d i Montalcino. I hope to get there soon. 

Anshu: 

Sounds amazing! Now, I know you said that was a long answer to a short question, which maybe it was, but I think it's really important because it shows the depth and complexity of the portfolio - as you said, the irons in the fire - and also I think speaks a little bit to….just the background of some of the larger, producers in Italy, where there are holdings across different parts of the country. And for someone who's maybe a little less familiar than you and I are with Italy, when you're talking about Veneto, we're really in the northeast part of the country there. And you talked about above the Veneto with Friuli, Venezia, Giulia, Alto Adige. So we're sort of up north, we're over to the east. And then we're dropping down into Tuscany as well, (and its) a little bit more central, if you will. And then with Prosecco,quite a different area and style than the dry wines that we talked about.

And you also covered a really broad range of grapes, some of them fairly well known - what we would call international grapes - and other grapes that are more indigenous in character. 

And I remember when you and I tasted together in that group setting, when I came to the tasting that you were sharing the wines at, you had brought some barrel samples and you did this really great walkthrough of the indigenous 

[00:14:00] 

grapes and what they were adding or some of the less expected grapes, if you will, and how they contributed to the blend. Because when we're talking Valpolicella, and you mentioned this, there's three categories - Valpolicella "basic" if you will, just for lack of a better way to put it, with no appassimento (and we should cover exactly what appassimento means), Valpolicella Ripasso, which has, I would say, hung out with the appassimento style. 

Andrew: 

Exactly. Good way to put it!

Anshu: 

And then we've got the Amarone, which is our full fledged wine made utilizing the appassimento method and it's a blend of three grapes. There's, I think, a lot that you've said there that - for someone who's trying to understand wines better - there's a lot to unpack.

Let's zero in on appassimento for a moment, and I won't explain it. I'd love to hear it from your perspective. Exactly what is appassimento and what does it add to the wines? 

Andrew: 

I think for the most part, when you talk about Valpolicella, people are expecting a wine made from fresh grapes without appassimento. 

Okay, let's talk about appassimento! 

An ancient technique dating back to the Romans that's a method of concentrating the grapes before fermentation.

In the case of Valpolicella, the grapes are hand harvested, in whole bunches, selected - not just any bunch - but bunches where we've got very healthy grapes, looking for some space in between the grapes for airflow during the appassimento, that's important. And if you look at the native grape varieties there, they're well adapted for that. 

And in Valpolicella, these grapes are hand harvested, laid into small wooden boxes, transported very carefully to uh, drying lofts where they're laid out on bamboo racks, but really think of it. It's like a cane that grows by the river. Not talking about the big, giant bamboo poles, but smaller than your little finger, these round canes. So there's racks made with these canes that have some space in between them for air flow. And the bunches are laid out on these bamboo racks.

[00:16:00] 

In the case of Amarone, for 90 plus days, at least at Masi, and up to 120 days in the case of our Riserva Costasera. 

So harvest typically happens late September, early October. In the DOC for Amarone, you only have to dry them until December 1st. But for Masi, that would be quite a short appassimento that wouldn't get us to where we want to be. So for our Amarones, we're drying into January or even into February…so three to four months. And during that time, you're losing about 40 percent of the moisture that's in the grapes! 

That concentrates everything that's inside. So your sugars, relatively, are going to go up, because you've got less water; your acids go up….but more so than a concentration, there's also a transformation of flavor.

And, a really interesting thing that I didn't know about until I started working at Masi was the botrytis or noble rot that also happens during this drying process, in particular with the Corvina grape. It has a little bit thinner skins but that kicks in around 70 days into the appassimento. 

So back to that December 1st thing, if you're doing a faster appassimento, you're not going to necessarily hit that 70 day mark where you start seeing botrytis affecting grapes primarily. So that's, I think, part of the secret sauce at Masi - it is a long, slow appassimento in a cooler environment, and, you know, you can't rush these things. It's all about time and temperature. And so after 100 days, you have these grapes that are not totally looking like raisins, but pretty well on the way there. It takes about two kilograms of grapes to make a bottle of Amarone, whereas it takes about one kilo of grapes to make a conventional fresh wine.

(This is) part of the reason why it's not the least expensive wine on the shelf. 

And then the result is really one of the great wines of Italy that you've got a taste to understand - and I think we're going to taste a little bit later here - but, a big wine, 15 plus percent alcohol, full bodied, but also with the approachability and sort of elegance and

[00:18:00]

smooth, velvety texture that belies the high alcohol percentage and the size of the wine. Sometimes you hear people call it the gentle giant, which I think is a good name or, velvet glove over an iron fist. One of those sort of analogies. Yeah, it's a huge wine, but at the same time, an approachable wine and I think an easy wine to fall in love with. 

So that's appassimento for Amarone in a nutshell. You'll see this appassimento process used all over the Mediterranean. Further south, often, it happens outside when there's not as much concern about rains in the fall. It does get quite cool in Valpolicella in the falland I think if you think about it historically, sugar was not as available 1000- 2000 years ago as it is today. Sweet things were prized and so concentrating the grapes to make the most powerful wine you could first to make really delicious. If you imagine eating one of those grapes after 100 days, it would just be super concentrated, super sweet.

So the original - now I'm going down another path here - but the original form of Amarone was a wine called Recioto and Recioto was actually a sweet red wine that underwent this appassimento process. I think for my money, the sweet wines are the most undervalued wines that there are today, because people are trying to have less sugar,some of the very sweet wines have lots and lots of sugar if you look at grams per liter, but these are wines that were like the most prized wines for thousands of years and enjoyed in the courts of royalty all over. And now nobody wants to touch them with a 10 foot pole! That's my little spiel on sweet wines!! 

But before modern winemaking technology, bottling, and sanitary practices in the winery, the higher the alcohol percentage, the stronger the wine, the more likely it was going to last until the next vintage, the easier it would be to transport it a few hundred kilometers away. And that's the origins of the technique.

[00:20:00]

But now, we do appassimento because we like what it does to the wines and it's a really fascinating technique to dive into and understand. 

Anshu: 
What does the botrytis add in terms of flavor when it comes to a red wine?

Andrew: 

For me, it's more of an impact on the texture of the wine. Botrytis creates some compounds that sound scary, but….. like glycolic acid, glycerol - which are, they contribute… 

Anshu: 

….to the body. 

Andrew: 

Exactly. Yeah. The texture, that sort of velvety mouth coating texture, and also the impression of sweetness.

Amarone is a dry wine. It drinks a little sweeter than it actually is. And I think that the botrytis is a big reason why. 

Anshu: 

Yeah. I was going to say, I liked your velvet glove analogy. I always talk about Amarone as a really big, beautiful, bold wine. But elegantly dressed, if you will.

It's not going to clobber you, by way of really obstructive tannins or really searing acidity. It's all there. The structure is there. Of course, it's a very well structured wine, but it's pretty smooth as you're drinking it. And I don't know an Italian, I would say, who doesn't love Amarone!

Andrew: 

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. I think it's a great entry point to old world wines. Let's say you fell in love with California cab or Napa cab, as many people do, to go right to a Barolo or even a Brunello could be jarring… like the Italian reds - lots of tannin, lots of acid.

As you said, Amarone certainly has the structure, but it has the sort of approachability and elegance that I think makes it a great gateway into Italian wines and maybe even old world wines in general. A great stepping stone into a little more tannin and acid and guts that the old world wines have.

Anshu:

Now, we should talk then, just you've I think set this up beautifully about foods that pair really well with the Masi wines, but let's focus in on Amarone since that's what we're talking about and that's what we'll be tasting in a moment. Before we do that though. I just wanted to maybe ask 

[00:22:00] 

you in terms of the Masi portfolio, and you've talked about a range of wines… is there in your view, a must know, must try iconic wine? 

Andrew: 

I think you'd have to say Campofiorin, a must try iconic wine that everybody should taste. it's reference point for appassimento, for the evolution of the Ripasso style, for Italy, the Veneto. 

But if we were to put that aside, assuming everybody's tried Campofiorin - and maybe more of like my personal favorite sleeper picks, what I'm enjoying, it's a very fun portfolio to work with because there's everything from Prosecco (since 2016), but a whole range of styles in Prosecco in, Trento, there's a Trento DOC from the Bossi Fedregatti estate called Conte Federico.

Have you had Trento dock wines? We don't see….. 

Anshu:

I actually have! 

Andrew: 

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, they're hard to find in Ontario. People that are doing some wine education - you often hear about Franciacorta as Italy's traditional method sparkling. but Trentodoc was not a wine that I was very familiar with until I tasted this Conte Federico and that's aged 36 months on the lees.

It has incredible complexity and, yeah, it’s a beautiful wine. Most of that gets drunk in Italy. Given this, Trentooc is not widely known here. I think it would come in probably at $40-$50 and that's getting into the price of entry level champagne. So a tough sell, but one of my favorites to drink when I'm over there.

We (also) have a rosé that I love - Rosa de Masi - a hundred percent refosco, and some of that refosco gets a little appassimento.

The Bonacosta Valpolicella! A lot of the time, Bonacosta slightly chilled is what I'm after. Like dominoes with your kids on a Monday night, Bonacosta would be the wine for me there.

And then one more I'll mention -  the Recioto which I mentioned as the sort of historic precursor to Amarone, that's a wine that's really fun to show people the wonders of 

[00:24:00] 

this. It's not super sweet, so you can have some fun with the pairings with the Recioto.,

It's a really fun way to end a wine dinner, especially an amarone dinner, to try the historic, sweeter version of it. So those are some, yeah, some of my favorites in the portfolio. 

Anshu: 

Absolutely. You know what, actually just behind me here in my office, I've got a recioto! Not a Masi…. 

Andrew: 

Oh, no way! Okay! 

Anshu: 

Yeah. Not a Masi, but I do have one and I'm hanging onto it for the right occasion. You said not sweet, but I think we're probably still hitting 160, 170 grams per liter?

Andrew: 

There's actually a range of styles and sugar levels. Masi makes three that are all quite different in residual sugar. some of them, more 40, 50, one at 70 and one closer to what you mentioned. But, yeah, there's a range of styles. There's a range.

Yeah, it'd be fun to do a comparative tasting. Maybe a little recioto tasting, closer to Christmas. And it's such a fun wine at Christmas. Beause it has, it's basically, it's got those clove and cinnamon and those Christmas-y spices that we love. 

Anshu: 

Whenever you're down, you just, you know my number now, you call me and I will sit down and taste the portfolio with you. It's no problem!! You've got a partner in crime. 

Okay. So we are going to taste now! I've taken up a lot of your time and I want to be respectful of it. So let's get to tasting. 

But before we do, or maybe as we do - you let me know what you'd like to do - tell our listeners what they should be pairing (I'm going to focus in on amarone) - what should they pair amarone with in your view? 

Andrew: 

Very good question. And there's a few different answers. I mean, it's a versatile wine. A lot of people think steak. Sure. Absolutely, that works. You're going to find lots of great amarones on the list at any steakhouse, so that's the first one that comes to mind for a lot of people. And I'd say absolutely, that's a no brainer.

For me, my favorite pairings…. One - like a braised meat. So maybe a braised 

[00:26:00] 

beef over some polenta or even a lamb shank, just meats that are cooked low and slow that are very rich and need a wine with structure and acidity to pair. 

But maybe even more than the braised beef, I love it after dinner with Gorgonzola. 

Anshu: Oh, yes. 

Andrew: 

It’s my very favorite pairing. It's a wine that you can take from a main course with protein into the after dinner - vino de meditazione, which is a term that they love to teach us in wine courses, i.e. a meditation wine.

For me, that means a wine you want to pour into a pretty big glass, this one is not too crazy. This is a time to pull out your big, showy giant Riedel or whatever you have! In my mind's eye - I have none of these things - but I'm imagining a big leather arm chair, a fireplace, maybe a nice old dog curled up, and I'm pouring my amarone into my giant glass and I'm just gonna take my time, and swirl, and enjoy the evolution of the wine in the glass, with a little bit of Gorgonzola, maybe some good Parmigiano Reggiano with a little honey, maybe some truffle honey, if you want to get fancy. That, for me, is, my favorite way to enjoy amarone. 

Anshu: 

You are literally speaking my language. As I asked you the question, of course, I thought of my own answer in my mind, and I thought, smoked brisket. 

Andrew: 

I think… 

Anshu: 

…it would be beautiful! 

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. Smoked brisket. That was my brisket sandwich yesterday.

Anshu: 

Yeah. That was my meat choice, especially with a nice glaze or a barbecue sauce of sorts. But the alternative outside of that was literally on a colder day or just a day that you want to hang out. You're sitting down, you have a nice glass of wine and you're just drinking it for the sake of drinking it.

I think amarone is a wine you can just drink and watch it unfold and peel off all the layers. And actually on this podcast, I've done an episode on meditation and wine. 

Anshu: there about the idea of being low and slow with your wines, like 

[00:28:00] 

taking your time with them. And some wines lend themselves really well to that.

Others, you know, maybe not, they're meant to be drunk quickly and all of that 

Andrew: 

context. Yeah. Yeah.  

Anshu: 

Or even some of our beautiful white wines that are just crisp and roses. Like, they're fun to drink and you're drinking them with your friends and you know, you're enjoying the wine, but maybe not noticing it as much as some of our more richer wines, like an amarone.

I think that you could spend time with and literally as you're eating different things or just drinking it over time, noticing how it's changing. So that's cool. We're on the same wavelength. 

Okay. So now that we've done that, let's taste. So I've got the bottle here. Hopefully we can see it. My background might make it hard for someone to see, if they're watching. 

Andrew: 

It’s popping in and out a bit. 

Anshu:

 So let's say what it is. And I was very excited. So for the listeners or the viewers, Andrew was kind enough to drop off a bottle for me in a beautiful box, actually. And we pulled up as a family to the front door. My kids said “Oh, someone's left wine for you!”, which, you know, does happen from time to time. And I said, okay, cool. I'll open it tomorrow before the podcast. And when I opened it, I was quite excited because we are having a 2016. So this is a treat for sure. It's the Costasera Amarone Classico. 

Andrew: 

Yes, 2016 was a really nice vintage. I should mention Masi does their own internal rating of the vintages - this came out of being forgotten by the major wine publications, or, they would give a vintage rating to all of Italy as a whole, or give Veneto the same one as Tuscany and Piedmont.

So Sandro decided, why don't we just give our own honest assessment of each of our vintages, which they do out of five stars. Those don't come along every year - in the last decade 2012, 2015, 2018 were the five star vintages, but 2013 and 2016, I think, four and a half, or it certainly could have been five stars, but maybe, the vintage prior got the five stars and you 

[00:30:00] 

don't want to, you don't want to, you gotta be especially hard markers if you're marking yourself. So the ‘16, not a five star vintage. If it is, you'll see it on the label just above the vintage. But I think easily it could have been an excellent vintage and yeah, for a wine to buy off the shelf at the LCBO, I think it's pretty cool that we're able to offer something that's seven years on, usually there's about a two year spread in between Bonacosta Valpolicella, current vintage is 2021.

The Campofiorin, just moved from 2018 to 2019 and then, across to Costasera Amarone a little bit of 2016 kicking around, which you have, but, mostly now into the 2017 vintage. So you got the 2016, which is what I have as well. Beautiful vintage - still very, I think, the early stage of its evolution.

That's another thing Sandro has I think worked very hard to prove to the world… that amarone is a wine that absolutely can age, 20, 30, 40 years, no problem. So still a baby, you could say, but it does have a few years of bottle age on it. 

Anshu: 

Yeah. And, I have to say it's still smelling incredibly fresh.

And I know I had asked you, Andrew, to take us through the tasting, because I want the listener to hear from you, not from me, they're used to hearing from me, but….. 

Andrew: 

I'd like you to do a proper WSET assessment of it because I've totally forgotten how to taste wine, like that. For me, it's now a little more, just emotional than technical I'd say, with my tasting.

Anshu: 

All right, let's do it then in that case. So I was going to say, this is, yeah, I was going to say it's a deep Ruby. It's definitely very deep, but, and almost pushing purple in the core, 

[00:32:00] 

but definitely around the outside, it's starting to rim, right? 

Garnet on the rim for sure, so you can see a bit of that age, when you're looking at it now.

Andrew: 

Do you think you can see a difference in terms of what you're going to feel on your palate in the wine? I don't know, maybe that's just romance, but I feel like it has a slightly different viscosity in the glass than say a 12 percent Valpolicella.

Anshu: 

Absolutely. I agree. No, it's sticking. This would be harder for people to see - sticking more and some of those legs or tears are coming down much slower. So yeah, I agree with you, I think that's going to give us a 

Andrew: 

15 percent alcohol on the label. 

Anshu: 

Yeah, I was just going to say, it gives us a sense of alcohol and body, Now on the nose, so it's not all primary. I think it's starting to get into tertiary. I'm interested to see if you agree, but not overly so I think we're definitely starting to get into some of the sort of meaty tobacco, a little bit of wet earth notes, but I still get a lot of blueberries, ripe plums. There's a lot of baking spices on the nose here.

Andrew: 

Yeah, this is, I like to tell people, they can usually pull out any of their red wine descriptors and if you sniff and swirl long enough, you're probably, you know, going to find something along those lines in there, but for me, fruit wise, cherries, I know sour cherries is the catch all for Italian reds….Sangiovese…but I think that it may be even more so with Corvina. Maybe less of a sour cherry, and then a great tasting is the Bonacosta, the Campofiorin and the Costasera and seeing that cherry evolve or change through the wines with the degree of appassimento. 

I agree there's mostly primary notes and for me, the main fruit note is a cherry, but getting into some dried cherries or some confit or even cherry spirit - a Kirsch or something like that, right? 

The maraschino cherries that people put in their 

[00:34:00] 

Manhattans. If you taste one of those, the syrup that's in those jars, I get that in here. 

Yeah, very nice.

But definitely the plum and evolving into some fig and some prunes and dried plums and prunes. So some desiccated fruit as well, which makes sense given that you're drying the grapes before fermentation. 

Anshu: 

Yeah, very nice. Okay. Shall we take a sip? 

Andrew: 

Please!

Anshu: 

It went silent there for a moment. If you're listening and not watching, it's because we're sipping. Oh my gosh, the acidity - beautiful acidity. It's going and going….such a long finish. 

Andrew: 

Yeah, that's something I love. And I think is a signature of the Masi style is the acidity and the freshness of these wines that I think can risk running a bit heavy, a bit, I don't want to say cloying, but with the appassimento, you're concentrating a lot and you still want to have that freshness and drinkability at the end of that. And a big part of that story, I think, is the Molinara. We haven't gotten too much into the grape varieties, but, Masi's using three, where the blend here is actually the same as the blend for Campofiorin and Bonacosta - 70 percent Corvina, 25 percent Rondinella, and then 5 percent of a grape called Molinara. 

Molinara used to be required in the Valpolicella and Amarone regulations. It was removed, so it's no longer required. But Masi is a very big believer in what just even that 5 percent Molinara brings to the table, in terms of the freshness. It's a higher acid grape. If you taste it, if you remember tasting it on its own, it doesn't do a ton for you as a single varietal, but it does bring a lot of acid and freshness, a little peppery spice as well that I think is a big part of the Masi style, and helps with the drinkability now, but also the aging evolution.  

Anshu: 

And the tannins, I mean, they're, they're smooth. They're fine. Right there. They're there. Yeah. They're not getting in the way of the wine experience at all. And I have to say for a wine that has undergone, as you were just saying, 

[00:36:00] 

appassimento, in other words, having the grapes been dried and then, building up that flavor, building up the profile, it doesn't have weight. It feels really light in the mouth. But very concentrated from a flavor perspective. It almost reminds me - for listeners who are thinking about analogous wines - it's almost like a really great Shiraz, almost like it's got that really concentrated fruit flavor and definitely a lot of cherry on the palate, very primary still on the palate.

So how long could this wine keep, do you think Andrew, if someone bought it? 

Andrew: 

Under the right conditions, I would very confidently say, 20 - 25 years? Absolutely. Yeah. I've tasted amarones older than that, that often seem like they could use another 20 years.

Like it's a surprisingly ageable wine, one you don't hear a ton about older vintages. But, we have access to some and we've done some tastings getting back into the eighties and they're still drinking really beautifully. 

Anshu: 

That's amazing. At that price point too, right? It's, I think a $50 bottle at the LCBO here in Ontario. 

Andrew: 

Currently also available in the half bottles, which is fun. Those are just about half the price as well. If you're a wine student, or on your own, it's a great way to taste one of the great wines of Italy without blowing the bank too much.

Anshu: 

No, absolutely gorgeous. And you know what? I have to say, I was just double checking the bottle while you were talking. You had mentioned earlier, but I wanted to double check, because I don't taste 15 percent alcohol here. I don't smell 15 percent alcohol. 

So I always have to do my little plug, being Indian myself. I always look for wines that I think pair well with Asian cuisine, meat based has all of those earthy spices and is spicy because a lot of times people will talk about sweeter wines for those types of dishes and they'll say avoid high alcohol because it's going to make the food taste more spicy.

I think in this case, if you had a traditional Indian meat curry, like, I wouldn't go to a Vindaloo, it's too expensive…not too expensive, sorry, too spicy! 

[00:38:00]

but a lamb based dish with a lot of cumin, coriander, and you want something that's got the weight and structure…there's a bit of sweetness on the palate here that's going to offset some of those flavors really nicely.

Andrew: 

Absolutely. 

Anshu: 

I think this is a beautiful wine for some traditional Asian dishes. 

Andrew: 

I would agree for sure. Yeah, it's residual sugar is at around nine grams per liter. So it's a dry wine, but it's not bone dry like Campofiorin is two grams per liter. Another wine that does really well with spicy foods, but I agree that little sort of kiss of sweetness and still a dry wine, but, I think plays really well with a little bit of heat for sure.

Anshu: 

Yeah. And as we said, I'm going back to my brisket recommendation. 

Andrew: 

Yeah. This would be amazing with brisket. I know! That's beautiful, yeah. Especially if the sauce echoed some of the fruit notes. That's a great idea. Yeah. So back to the food pairings now you're right. Like steak, but Southern barbecue is, 

Anshu: 

Yes.

Andrew: 

It's a category that works really well with this style, 

Anshu: 

Even a really nice barbecued chicken!! 

All right, listen, Andrew, thank you so much. That was really informative and I loved tasting that wine with you. That was fantastic. And I hope that people have not only learned a little bit about Masi, which I think is a fantastic and very iconic producer, certainly for the Veneto region and here where I live in Toronto, in Canada, but also had the opportunity to learn from you about Italian wines, about wines from the Veneto, about food and wine pairing….it's just been a really fantastic discussion. And I want to thank you for your time. I hope we can hang out again soon. 

Andrew: 

Absolutely. Thank you so much Anshu for having me on. It's been fun to chat and, yeah, look forward to the next one - maybe a full flight of Amarones! We'll go deep into some back vintages. 

Anshu: 

We'll just do a tasting. That's all we'll do. 

Andrew: 

Yes. And the Reciotos too! 

Anshu: 

Sounds good to me!