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The Wineitupanotch Podcast
A podcast where we talk about wine, life and everything in between. Join certified wine expert Anshu Grover to hear about wine reviews, wine regions, winemakers... and so much more.
Delivered in an easy-going and relatable style, this is a podcast that will be appealing to wine lovers - from the wine curious to the wine newbies to the hardcore wine enthusiasts - everywhere!
The Wineitupanotch Podcast
43. The Art of Artisanal Grower Champagne, with Fresne Ducret
In this episode, we meet Pierre and Daniella Fresne, the dynamic duo behind the artisanal grower Champagne house, Fresne Ducret.
Tune in and listen as they share both their personal and professional journey. Pierre, a native winemaker from Reims, and Daniella, his Canadian wife discuss their individual backgrounds, the history of the Fresne Ducret brand and how it has evolved through generations, and what it is like to be a grower in the Champagne region today.
Learn more about Fresne Ducret at https://www.champagne-fresne-ducret.com/ or at @fdchampagne on Instagram
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EPISODE NOTES:
Exploring the Art of Artisan Champagne with Fresne Ducret!
In this episode, Anshu Grover interviews Pierre and Daniella, the duo behind the artisan grower Champagne house, Fresne Ducret.
The conversation delves into their personal backgrounds, the history of Fresne Ducret, and their unique approach to Champagne making.
Pierre discusses his family's multi-generational winemaking heritage, their commitment to using only their own grapes, and the artisanal techniques they employ, such as long aging on lees.
The discussion also touches on the effects of climate change on their vineyards, and their ongoing shift towards organic certification.
Daniella elaborates on the various Champagne cuvées of Fresne Ducret, food pairings that go well with their Champagnes, and their current distribution channels.
The discussion highlights the dedication and passion behind Fresne Ducret's distinctive Champagnes, offering listeners an in-depth look into the complexities and artistry of small-scale Champagne production.
TIME STAMPS:
00:27 Meet Pierre and Daniella Fresne
02:52 The Essence of Fresne Ducret
04:03 Family History and Legacy
09:05 Artisanal vs. Large Champagne Houses
13:22 Signature Styles and Vinification
20:11 Exploring the Terroir
25:37 Exploring Micro Cuvées and Vineyard Diversity
26:39 The Impact of Climate Change on Champagne Harvests
33:16 The Importance of Acidity in Champagne
35:28 The Path to Attaining Organic Certification
40:36 How to Find Fresne Ducret Champagnes!
44:09 Champagne and Food Pairing Suggestions
45:03 Closing Remarks
For more information on Fresne Ducret, you can learn more at https://www.champagne-fresne-ducret.com/ or at @fdchampagne on Instagram
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Anshu Grover:
Pierre and Daniella, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you making the time to do so.
As I was saying to you before we started recording, I had the pleasure of being introduced to your products when I did my “Giving Tuesday” campaign and I found your Champagne that I got to try to be just exceptional. And when I did the research on your background, I loved the story. So I'm really excited to have the opportunity to bring your story forward to my listeners.
And I know they're going to love what they hear. Maybe though, before we get going into the story behind Fresne Ducret, do you mind telling me just a little bit about yourselves individually, and then together?
Pierre Fresne:
Well, I am a true French man born, not in this village, but just outside of it in the main town - in Reims.
But I grew up here. I'm the son of a winemaker, well a farmer winemaker, and a grandson of one and a great grandson of one. So, um, yeah, I grew up here, I actually studied English at university and, uh, lived abroad in England for a couple of years before I came back here and went to wine school and started to work on the farm with my dad and his cousin.
And while doing this, I did a couple of internships - one in New Zealand and one in Burgundy - and that's when I met Daniella here.
Daniella Fresne:
I was born and raised in Oakville. For those of you who are in Toronto, you are familiar with it, but, uh, about half an hour outside of the city. My dad worked in the city, so it's really close. You know, a close suburb.
I did a business degree at Queen's, graduated in 2003 and came over right after I finished my exams to work for a travel company called Hamilton Fitzjames, who at the time were running gastronomic and wine tours in France and Italy.
And so I was an assistant to the two directors and I was on a two year contract. I came over with the intention of, you know, working for two years, saving up some money, uh, doing some, you know, fun traveling, uh, and then going back to
[00:02:00]
Canada to go to cooking school….and six months into my contract, I met Pierre who was doing a winemaking internship near where I was working in Beaune.
Anshu Grover:
And the rest is history, as they say.
Daniella Fresne:
Exactly!
Anshu Grover:
So today, you guys are the duo that run Fresne Ducret.
Daniella Fresne:
Absolutely.
Pierre Fresne:
I'm in charge of production in general, so grape growing and winemaking mostly, and Daniella does the rest.
Daniella Fresne:
I do the sales, the marketing, order preparation, shipping, logistics, balancing the bank accounts, all of the exciting paperwork that we get to do here in France.
Anshu Grover:
Daniella, when I had reached out to you to try to organize this, you said, oh, if you really want to talk winemaking, then talk to Pierre.
And I said, no, I want to talk to both of you because I love that you're Canadian. And I love the French love story. Of course, who wouldn't love that? That sounds wonderful! But you know what? I would love to hear from yourselves how you would encapsulate the essence of Fresne Ducret. What do you stand for? What's sort of the vision and the mission of the brand and the wines?
Pierre Fresne:
Well, I'm the son and grandson of grape growers and,we're only making Champagne from our grapes, and so what I'm trying to do, uh, both in the vineyards and in the winery, is to try and get the best grapes for a start, and then make the best, make the most out of those grapes when I turn them into Champagne.
Daniella Fresne:
It's also a very artisanal approach because we're working with - as he said - grapes only from vineyards that we work on, but also from a single village. With the exception of one parcel, all of our vines are in this village, and that other parcel is on the border of the next. So they're terroir based artisanal Champagnes that Pierre tries to…. he's, he's a, student of continuous improvement. It's not always doing exactly the same thing, always trying to kind of, oh, if I, maybe if I tweak this thing, I can make this even better. So he's not one to rest on his laurels and kind of do things the
[00:04:00]
way they've always been done.
Anshu Grover:
Now, I think we're going to come back to some of this in a moment. You touched on the fact that you are the son of a winemaker and the grandson of a winemaker, and there actually, if someone was to visit the website, and I'll be sure to link it in the notes, uh, there's a really great write up of the family history. But Pierre, I'd love to hear it from your perspective as to how Fresne Ducret of today came to be.
Pierre Fresne:
We usually trace back our origins to my great great great grandfather, who came from a family of grape growers in another village not very far from here and he moved to Ville-Dommange (where we are today) in the late 19th century. Yes. And, um, he met a local woman, and they got married and had children, and that woman had also some vines, and so that's how the vineyard started.
But in those days, we were not winemakers, we were not Champagne makers. We were very much, uh, growers, and the grapes would be sold on to other companies that would turn them into Champagne.
The thing is with those first generations is that we were very much farmers. Grape growing was maybe most part of our activity, but we also had orchards and vegetable patches and animals. And so we were doing proper farming all around. When my great grandfather took over, he was actually the first one to make wine, and he created the Fresne Ducre brand with his wife. He was trying to make Champagne. Back in those days, the farmers were relatively poor and the banks were quite reluctant to lend money because the land was not worth what it's worth today. So, he had to get together with a few other growers in the village to buy machines, you know, that was just before the second World War.
And when the war started, everything stopped
[00:06:00]
here and unfortunately, a couple of years later, he got sick and he passed away. So he never ended up making Champagne, even though he created a brand, and he started making wine and started to sell wines to local cafes and families.
Things really picked up after the second World War. My grandfather was sent to work in a factory in Germany during the war because he was of age to do his military service. And because this part of France was occupied. He had the choice of either going to work in a factory or going to fight for the Germans and so, uh, when he came back in 1945, him and his younger brothers basically dusted off the vines I suspect because nobody had taken care of them for a few years. It was probably a big mess! And then they really properly started to make Champagne using the old machines and the old press that their father had left behind.
Daniella Fresne:
There was definitely a 1947 that they made - that must have been their first vintage. And they didn't have a lot of vines at first. Um, and a lot of, I think, what they grew was sold onto the big houses and they acquired some more vineyards, I think, in the fifties and sixties.
Pierre Fresne:
Uh, what happened in the fifties and sixties, there was a boom for Champagne and the Champagne houses needed more and more grapes. And in all of the villages, there were some plots that could have carried the, uh, Champagne vines. But people were saving them for, as I said, orchards or vegetables or even animals.
And when the Champagne houses needed more and more grapes, they thought the best way to get grapes is to have them planted, have all those patches planted. So they started to pay a better price for the grapes and people started to think - hey, if I get more money from the grapes than I will from this animal or from this, you know, vegetable, I'm going to pull everything out and start planting grapes.
[00:08:00]
And, uh, my dad always said, uh, when he started to work with his father in 1965, there were half as many vines in Champagne as there are today. So they started planting more and more in the fifties and sixties and basically by the end of the 1980s, everything that could be planted with the Champagne vine was planted.
Um, and so that's also where they went from, um, a smallish vineyard to a bigger vineyard.
Anshu Grover:
So today, what's the size of your property?
Pierre Fresne:
So today we're on six hectares. We're still a pretty small operation in general, but for Champagne, that's just above the medium average size for a vineyard.
Because the Champagne grapes are paid at a premium price by the large Champagne companies and because everything is so densely planted, you tend to have higher yields here than in other regions. So you manage to make a living with a smaller surface area than you would in Bordeaux, for example.
Anshu Grover:
I think this is a great time to pause for a moment and just talk about the distinction that you've made a couple of times between the large Champagne houses and an artisanal producer such as yourself.
I know certainly until I really delved into studying wine properly, I didn't fully appreciate the economics and the marketplace of Champagne and the fact that really a lot of the Champagne that we see as consumers is dominated by a handful of extremely large names and then there are others such as yourselves that are really working land and producing your own art with your own grapes in your own way.
That's not most of what we're seeing in the market. And I think as a consumer, it's important to understand and appreciate that because there's a difference in the glass and in the product and in the story behind it, as far as I'm concerned. So, uh, Pierre, Daniella, both - I'd just love to hear your perspective on what, you know, you see as the situation in
[00:10:00]
Champagne with the larger domains and then producers such as yourself and what's the split between large Champagne houses and more artisanal producers?
Daniella Fresne:
Well in Champagne, the ratio, um, that I've heard at least is that the big houses - what we call the "negociants" and I'll go into a little bit more detail about what exactly that means - um, they represent 80 percent of the Champagne that sold and they own 20 percent of the land. Um so most of them are selling Champagne being made with grapes that they haven't grown. Depending on the house, there are some that have higher proportions than others. I won't name names. I'm not going to advertise for them. But, I mean, some of them have very few vineyards and the vineyards that they own, for example, might be reserved for, uh, their, you know, very high end cuvees but they're typically buying grapes, um, from all over the region. Different villages, different crus. We have Grand Cru, Premier Cru, and Autre Cru and so usually there's no cru on the bottles. Um, and I mean, it's a, it's a different way of working than what we do.
There is kind of a symbiosis here in Champagne between the big houses and the growers in that growers like us, we can sell some of our grapes or some of our base wines or even some unfinished bottles to the négociants.
So this is, these are the big houses who are authorized to, to purchase at different stages of production. So we can sell some products to them, and that helps us finance our operations. And for us, in particular, the long aging on lees which I'm sure we'll come back to later…..so, I mean, the big houses are the brands that, no, of course, most of the ones that you've heard of, um, or that you've seen on shelves.
They are all négociants. And you can check if you look on the label of the bottle, by law, somewhere it's supposed to be printed. Um, if it says NM on the bottle, that's a Négociant.
[00:12:00]
And it means that they are authorized to purchase fruit from outside of their domaine.
We are what is called a grower Champagne.
It's a term that's used a little bit more loosely. It can apply to independent winemakers like us, who do everything from start to finish. It does also tend to include growers who work with the cooperatives, who deliver their grapes to a cooperative, they're pressed and vinified, and then sometimes the members will get back the juices, they'll get back the base wines, or they'll get back bottles.
Those are sometimes marketed also as grower Champagnes because they are being sold by a grower. Um, a particularity of what, of our status, which is Récoltant Manipulant (R. M.) - it means that there's a traceability in the whole process and that everything that we use comes from our own vineyards that we work, picked by our teams, pressed, vinified, and aged on site.
Anshu Grover:
Yes. And I love that. And I just want to zero in on what you said there, the RM initial is an important one because you can find that often on a bottle. So if you see RM on a bottle, it means that you're dealing with effectively a grower Champagne.
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah.
Anshu Grover:
And yourselves….so all of the Champagnes you make, are they all, I think Pierre, you said so, but, um, all the grapes for all Champagnes are from your own properties?
Pierre Fresne:
That's right.
Anshu Grover:
Okay, beautiful. All right. So, let's get into it a little bit in terms of the Champagne. I don't know if I've said this in the recording yet, but before we started recording, I mentioned that I've had the opportunity to try a few. and Daniella , just now you mentioned long lees aging, which is something that I think of right away because the Champagne that I introduced my clients to was the “Le Chemin du Chemin”, and for a non vintage Champagne, it had been aged a very long time on lees.
So I wonder if that is a signature style, but before we go there, just for anybody who is listening who's not that familiar with what I mean when I say a long time on lees - I'm referring to the fact that the
[00:14:00]
wine has remained in contact with the dead yeast cells for an extended period of time, which then imparts a certain flavor profile. Uh, Pierre, you can certainly correct me, but you know, in my view, I always call that toasty, bready, you know, sometimes some yogurty, smoky notes that really impart complexity in Champagne, which oftentimes when we're looking at the large houses and their non vintage house style Champagnes (the Champagnes that we find easily on shelves), they've often not spent that extended time aging on lees and so they're, you know, not a, not a simple profile by any means, but they may not have as much complexity as a Champagne that has spent that longer time in cellar, aging on its lees.
And I certainly found that, uh, when I tried your Le Chemin de Chemin. So, um, to go back to asking you guys the questions, if you would maybe talk a little bit about your house style, if you have one, and some of the signature aspects of the vinification process.
Now I understand you said we're constantly trying to improve and play with things, but are there any things that are characteristically Fresne Ducre?
Pierre Fresne:
Well, the long aging on the lees for one is something that we've done for a very, very long time. We're lucky enough that we have large cellars which allow us to age our Champagnes for a long time.
And because the, um, the stocks - the brand was established a long time ago - the stocks of Champagnes were built over time, over a long period of time, and so that allowed us to have this slow rotation of our stocks. Apart from that, I want to say that traditionally, because we're in an area that grows mostly black grapes, Pinot Meunier and Pinot Noir, that's something that you will find in our blends.
We've recently started to make Blanc de Blanc pure Chardonnay. But, it's been a very, very long, uh, undertaking because, when I
[00:16:00]
started to work with my dad, we only had one small parcel of Chardonnay. And over time when some vineyards were getting older and needed to be pulled out and replaced, we planted more and more Chardonnay. And the fact that we had more Chardonnay gave us more choices in the blends and eventually the chance to make a small quantity of Blanc de Blanc. But apart from that little exception in all of our blends, you find, quite a bit of,Pinot Noir for sure.
Daniella Fresne:
I mean, our normal range of products, there are typically 4 different cuvées and rather than having a house style that runs throughout, we've actually made the choice to have very distinctive styles for each of those cuvées.
So our entry level cuvee, which isn't currently sold in Canada, for example, is very Pinot Meunier heavy - very fresh and fruity, still has a fairly long aging on the lees, so four years on the lees - where the minimum here in Champagne is 15 months. It's a much longer aging than what's required and fairly unusual to have an entry level Champagne that aged for that long.
Then we have the Chemin de Chemin which is more of a traditional blend. It has almost equal parts of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier, and is a little bit more complex. We're kind of more on those brioche notes, the toastiness.
And then we have a rosé that's a fairly intense rosé, lots of berry aromas. Those three non-vintage products are very similar from one year to the next, um, but they're not similar to each other. And the vintages, of course, vary a lot from year to year because we want them to express the character of the grapes of the year in which they were grown.
Anshu Grover:
And so the La Grande Hermine - it's a vintage product?
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah.
Anshu Grover:
Okay. And then you also have the Arquémie line.
Daniella Fresne:
Yes.
Anshu Grover:
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Pierre Fresne:
Yes. So, because I like to experiment in the winery and
[00:18:00]
because I know that our clients are attached to a specific taste with our regular range, I don't change that too much. Sometimes there's little evolutions, but you know, it's never major.
But, I wanted to be able to, you know, try new things, uh, things that weren't done by my father before. So I decided I would create this new, this new range. That's when we created the Blanc de Blanc, we also created a Blanc de Noir.
We've been experimenting with, so far, grape variety, but in the cellars right now we also have batches that come from a single parcel. But again, because things take time, we're not releasing these Champagnes for quite a few years.
Daniella Fresne:
It's important to note that the Arquémie range - they're micro cuvées. Small batch, and every batch is different. They're all numbered. So if you have tried the Arquémie, you probably have the two or the three, um, which you have the two. Okay. So that's the Blanc de Blanc.
The Arquémie number two is almost gone. There's a hundred or so bottles left. When that's gone, Arquémie two doesn't exist anymore. So it's really these kind of one off sort of experiments that had turned out well….obviously, if they didn't turn out well, they wouldn't be released.
The 2 was a Blanc de Blanc, the 3 was a Blanc de Noirs…..we've got a 100 percent Pinot Noir that's about to be released. They're really unique cuvées, that are “ephemera”, as say in French - ephemeral, is that how you say it in English?
Anshu Grover:
I love it. So, Pierre, what drives you as a winemaker and your artistry? How do you….. I mean, you're clearly very passionate about it, so how do you make decisions? What sort of sends you in different directions?
Pierre Fresne:
Well, uh, blending is something that is very interesting. I think it's the essence of Champagne because we have different grapes, certain blend will make a certain style and changing it all will make something quite different, even if the grapes come from the same vineyards.
[00:20:00]
So I was always curious about experimenting with that. You know, let's try something else. Let's try and make things better. At the end of the day, that's what I'm looking for.
Anshu Grover:
One thing we didn't really talk about which I do, at least from my perspective, (not as a winemaker, but as a student of wine) understand to be important is that the soils, the terroir, the place that you're from. So we talked about the village. Is it Ville Dommange? Am I saying that right?
Pierre Fresne:
That's right.
We're on the northern slopes of the Montagne de Reims, so we're facing Reims, uh, we're seven kilometers southwest of Reims. The Montagne de Reims is actually, uh, quite a large area, in Champagne, and we belong to the western sector of it in which you don't find any Grand Cru, only Premier Cru, uh, villages.
Historically, most of our area grew again, uh, you know, many, and some people are, um, yeah. What is interesting with the uh, the Montagne de Reims, so the Montagne de Reims, despite its name, is nothing like a mountain……
Anshu Grover:
It's a ridge! Is that fair?
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And even if you think of ridges as generous, it's a bit of a hill with some trees on top.
Anshu Grover:
I was going to say, I should tell you that um, I spent some time living in Fontainebleau, not very far from you, so Uh, I was not a wine person at the time, but whenever I drove that way to go to Paris, I, I swore I never saw a mountain!
So when I started studying wine, I thought, where's the mountain? I'm not sure.
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah, it's a very loose, it's, it's, uh…. the term is used in a very loose sense. It's a mountain in that it's more elevated than the plain.
Anshu Grover:
Fair. Sorry to interrupt you Pierre.
Pierre Fresne:
So the slopes are, uh, facing towards Reims and because we're angled, we're a little bit on an east, northeast, facing slope.
[00:22:00]
And, um, you would say it might not be the best, uh, sun exposure, um, but, the slope is not just one block. What's interesting is that you have, uh, several hills on the main hill. And so, depending on where the vine is, where the plot is on the hill, it'll be facing in different directions. And we'll have some of them that are southeast facing, some of them that are west facing.
You have a little bit of different exposures everywhere. and what's interesting about Montagne de Reims and especially, uh, the northern slope of the Montagne de Reims is that on top of the, uh, plateau? Is that what you said? Yeah. On top of the plateau, you have this very dense forest that you drive through if you drive between Reims and Épernay.
And, that forest acts a little bit like…..
Anshu Grover:
A barrier, almost?
Pierre Fresne:
Yes. Basically, it will accumulate, and store the heat of the day during the summer. And then it will release it at night. So it will help the grapes ripen. And even during the night, uh, very different from some other venues where you have strong heat during the day and then very cold nights that will help balance the final grapes, here it's a little bit different.
We never, at least in the past, we would never get super hot days. And then we would have the, uh, the forest that would basically, uh, help, uh, ripen the grapes at night. So that's one of the main features of the Montagne de Reims in our area.
And the types of soils are a little bit varied, and, in our village, on the lower part of the slope - and it crosses our village, but it crosses pretty much all of our, area of the Montagne de Reims - there's a vein of sand, and so higher on the slopes, the soils are clay and chalk, even though the chalk here is very, very deep. And then, further down the slope, you have sand, and
[00:24:00]
the sand is kind of underground, the sand is kind of mixed with a little bit of clay,
Daniella Fresne:
The petite Montagne de Reims...We have the sand vein, which I don't think that there's sandy soil to that extent in other parts of Champagne. My understanding is that it's fairly unique to this immediate area.
Because this, this….so what we call the mountain was actually a prehistoric coastline. And so the sand vein being was actually the seabed. And sand affects how the grapes affects the drainage and how the grapes ripen too, doesn't it?
Pierre Fresne:
That's correct.
Higher up on the hill, we'll tend to have wines that are a little bit more round and fruity and expressive. That's the clay and the calcaire. Um, and further down the slope, you still have that fruitiness, but the wines are not as in your face as in the clay area. They tend to be a little bit more - especially the Pinot Noirs - they tend to be a little bit more subtle.
So it's interesting for the blends.
Anshu Grover:
I was going to say it's a little rule that I've taught myself - clay is more power, structure, um, firmness almost right in the fruit and the sand is a little bit softer, as you were saying a little bit more supple, a little less in your face. Is that fair?
Pierre Fresne:
That's right. Yeah, absolutely.
Anshu Grover:
Good, I learned that well then!
Um, so just to go back to the point you were making, I just want to make sure that again, you know, the listeners hearing you're describing that in your six hectares, there are different aspects. So different ways in which the land is facing the sun, uh, different amounts of heat and/or lack thereof, and I'm sure we'll get to this in a moment because you said it used to be, and I think you were, you were cueing us to the fact that climate change maybe is changing things in Champagne. But that there might be different amounts of heat that are contributing to ripeness, there's different soil types, and then you also talked about the fact that you're making these micro cuvées, experimenting with parcels, different grapes, blending things together to
[00:26:00]
see what you can create. And that's coming from the fact that you, within your six hectares, have so much possibility. I mean, there's just a lot to play with.
Daniella Fresne:
We have 24 different parcels.
So, it's 6 hectares, but it's all cut into tiny little pieces. And so they do, they are kind of scattered around the village. None of them are actually in the village. Here, you have very much like the concentration of the houses in the village, and the vineyards are all around, but we have some, you know, farther up on the hill, some more in the middle, some at the bottom, and as Pierre mentioned before, different exposures.
So yeah, I mean, every parcel has its own potential.
Anshu Grover:
And it's own story to tell.
That's amazing. And, was I right in foreshadowing that climate change is changing things for you in terms of your wines?
Pierre Fresne:
Yes, definitely. For example, 40 years ago, harvest here in Champagne was usually mid to late September, and it would usually end between the fifth and the 10th of October.
Today, if I look between 2003 and 2022, I think we have over 10 harvests when we started in August and either harvested everything in August or finished at the beginning of September.
So in the space of 30 years, we harvest earlier and earlier and earlier. If we harvested at the same time as my grandfather and my father did back in the day, the grapes wouldn't be balanced anymore. Uh, there wouldn't be enough acidity for the style of wines that we're making.
So, yeah, it's definitely a witness of climate change. The season starts earlier, uh, and it finishes earlier, and in between, the ripening process happens very, very quickly. There was a saying, uh, that my dad always said is, uh, when the, uh, the, uh, when the….
Daniella Fresne:
vines flower….
Pierre Fresne:
….when the vines flower, you count 100 days to the harvest. Nowadays, it's when the vines flower, you count 85 days.
[00:28:00]
We've been having some heat issues, heat, uh, stress and drought and heat waves in summer, and that will affect, obviously, the profile of the wines. Alcohol tends to go up in general, acidity tends to go down. So the wines that we make today have little to do with what my grandfather used to make 40 years ago.
Daniella Fresne:
It's also affected yields because we've been more susceptible to late frosts because we're having mild winters. When you have a week of, you know, warmish weather in May, the vines start to bud and then if you get frost in April, (which is not that uncommon) they um, you can get frost damage….
Pierre Fresne:
….during March and April, but…
Daniella Fresne:
What did I say?
Oh, sorry, warm weather in March goes to bed and then, in April, we have frost, frost damage. We haven't been too badly affected by that. We had a little bit of frost damage, I think, two years ago.
Pierre Fresne:
We've been relatively lucky in the last few years, but there are some other areas within Champagne and within France in general that have been badly affected by spring frost.
And that's because the season is starting earlier and earlier.
Daniella Fresne:
And the drought, when there's been drought, it means that the yields by weight are lower. So it's not just the flavor profiles. It's also the actual quantity that we're able to harvest.
Anshu Grover:
So would you say climate change is affecting you positively, negatively, both?
Pierre Fresne:
I was going to say both really.
Daniella Fresne:
It makes it riskier. It makes it more unpredictable. You know, there have also been some random big storms that have caused damage. Can we attribute those to climate change? I don't know if we can say 100 percent for sure that they are.
But I mean, in 2021, it rained for almost eight weeks straight and we ended up harvesting 10 percent of our quota. So, I mean, was that because of climate change? I don't know, but it was certainly a bizarre weather pattern that we
[00:30:00]
aren't used to seeing around here.
Anshu Grover:
Thank you for sharing that. I think there's so much conversation in the circles that I'm in around the effect of climate change. and you know, sometimes there's a feeling that, oh, it's better for places that were kind of marginally okay for grape growing, you know, where it was cool to begin with.
And sometimes hard to ripen grapes well - they're benefiting from climate change. Um, but then you'll hear another perspective that's - no, not necessarily. Maybe in some ways. That's why I asked you positive, negative or both, because maybe in some ways it's been beneficial, but in other ways it's been harmful.
So thank you for sharing that perspective. I think it's important again for people to understand what really goes into the wine that they enjoy, And I think it's fair to say that, uh, as in any industry, the smaller player has more to contend with than the really large player that has a large network of growers that they're buying from and a large network of processes and people.
Now, I wanted to just ask you about today, uh, your team. So obviously the two of you, a husband and wife duo run everything. Who else is involved, are there seasonal workers? Tell us a little bit about the size of your team.
Pierre Fresne:
So, uh, on an everyday basis, apart from me and Daniella, I have, uh, one and three quarters…..
Daniella Fresne:
One person who works full time and one person who works 75 percent of full time.
Anshu Grover:
Okay. So it's…
Daniella Fresne:
We don't have three quarters of a person. It's three quarters of….
Anshu Grover:
their time.
Daniella Fresne:
Yes, exactly. That's right.
Pierre Fresne:
So, yeah. And, um, between me and the boys, we, uh, take care of, uh, well, we spend a lot of time out there in the vines because it takes, uh, takes a long time. And also, Champagne making is a little bit more industrious in terms of the work that's needed for the whole process than let's say, Chablis for example.
We also spend quite a bit of time in the cellars.
So, yeah, we managed to
[00:32:00]
do almost everything, just the three of us.
But, there are some times during the season when things need to be done quickly or things happen very quickly. So, usually, come the end of May, the vineyards need a lot of attention. The young branches have reached a certain height. They need support, so we need to go out in the vines and, you know, uh, make sure that everything is as it should. Sort the branches, make sure that they are not going to break if we have big gusts of wind. So we usually hire an extra three to five people to help us doing that over the course of the month.
And then harvest time, of course, we need extra hands. sowe usually hire an extra 20 to 22 people. Everything here in Champagne is handpicked so it takes a long time.
We are eager to bring everything back, in the winery relatively quickly. We are always wary of bad weather at the time of harvest. And also, if we happen to have a hot year, the grapes will carry on ripening between the beginning of the harvest and the end of the harvest. So we don't want to have something that's not as well balanced at the end as we have at the beginning.
So usually harvest is relatively quick. It lasts between 9 and 11 days every year.
Anshu Grover:
And I just wanted to clarify again for the listener that, uh, when we're talking about Champagne, acidity is critical. Do I have that right, Pierre? We want really good acidity in the grapes because that is really a hallmark of a great Champagne?
Pierre Fresne:
Absolutely. And that's what's going to help the Champagne age gracefully, help it develop all of the flavors that we'll get from lees aging. Acidity is definitely very important.
Anshu Grover:
And I think that's why it's so important for whoever's listening to hear your perspective on that too, and how hard you're working. I think all grape growers are working to zero in on that exact period where acidity is exactly where you want it to be vis a vis fruit ripeness and getting your grapes at that time, getting them into the cellar, and then doing the work from there.
You mentioned time in the cellar, which made my wine geek mind
[00:34:00]
think about the riddling process. So how do you do the riddling?
Pierre Fresne:
We have the old traditional riddling racks that we use for the vintage, the magnums, the half bottles, the rosé. And, the rest is riddled in, gyropalette, inside of the machine.
Anshu Grover:
And do you have underground caves?
Pierre Fresne:
Yes. Our cellars were dug out for the most part between the first and the second World War. They're not very far from our house, but back in those days my family didn't make Champagne. So they were dug by another producer and that producer ended up being bought by Krug.
It's hard to believe it now, but Krug faced some financial difficulties after the oil crash in the 70s. And before they were bought by the Moet and Chandon group, they tried to survive and they tried to survive by selling a lot of their assets.
And so they owned these cellars in my village, a couple other cellars and some vineyards. And they ended up selling everything and, uh, my grandfather at the time knew the chef de vignoble for Ville Dommange and he knew that those cellars were nice and would be great for storing their Champagnes.
And so, he went to see him and he said, if you end up selling the cellars, we'd be interested in buying them. And so that's how, that's how it happened.
Anshu Grover:
Very cool. So I have a few more questions for you. You've been very generous with your time, giving it to me, and I know this is a busy time. So I've got a couple more questions.
If I may, would you be willing to tell us what's happening in the winery right now?
Pierre Fresne:
Nothing!
Um, yeah, we bottled, uh, a month ago, uh, a month ago yesterday, our first certified organic bottles.
Anshu Grover:
Oh, fantastic. Congratulations!
Pierre Fresne:
And, after that, uh, nothing, nothing's happening in the winery. The reserve wines are just sleeping there until next year.
Anshu Grover:
Okay, but is work happening in the vineyard?
Pierre Fresne:
Yes, we finished pruning 10 days ago.
[00:36:00]
We're still tying the young branches onto the wires. Also because we're organic and we don't use any herbicides, we're training the soils right now to try and clean them before the season to try and avoid having too many weeds. So it's keeping us busy at the moment.
Anshu Grover:
No doubt. And then I wanted to ask you guys, and I know this is hard and I'm asking you quite a general question so take it where you want to, because you just told us you have a couple of discreet styles of wine and then you have your micro cuvées where you're playing.
But I'd love to hear from your perspective about food that you think that your Champagnes pair really well with.
Pierre Fresne:
I think that's you!
Daniella Fresne:
Um, so the Chemin du Chemin, for example, is, uh, it's a very versatile Champagne because it works well on its own. It's also very good with smoked salmon, seafood in general works very well with, uh, it's also great like with cold roast chicken on a picnic.
The Arquémie series, the Blanc de Blanc, the number two is fantastic with sushi, with oysters. It's got that really like zesty acidity that works well with that sort of seafood.
The vintages, it depends on the vintages, but usually they're rich enough to have with things like, I'm not sure if these sort of things in Canada very much, but like pigeon breast, like roasted pigeon breast en crute,
Anshu Grover:
Like a gamier, richer meat?
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah, I wouldn't serve it with like wild boar, but like feathered game. I think it, it goes quite well with that.
Our rosé goes well with lamb, especially if you decant it and like roasted lamb, not stewed lamb, but like a nice seared lamb loin with a little, um, uh, red currant jus, works well with the rosé.
I mean, a fuller bodied Champagne, you can, you can serve like you would serve a full bodied white wine, really. Absolutely.
We typically wouldn't serve it with beef. Although my mom would argue that it's the perfect accompaniment for a steak!
[00:38:00]
My mom drinks Champagne with everything. She loves that I've married a Champagne maker because it gives her access. Um, yeah, for sure. So yeah, we typically wouldn't serve it with beef, but I would say there aren't really the other meats that are really off the table. We typically wouldn't serve with very rich, creamy sauces. We'd go wrong with like a jus, like something deglazed. But yeah, I mean, I think Champagne is a lot more versatile than a lot of people realize
Anshu Grover:
And what does your collection look like? Do you guys have a big reserve of wines? I think Pierre, you mentioned there is quite a library of finished wines and unfinished wines for you to draw on.
Pierre Fresne:
Well, my dad started a collection down in the cellars in the seventies when they bought the old cellars.
And so, uh, we have a few bottles and a few magnums of, uh, old vintages going back to 1973. Um, that's just for, it's not really for sale, um, it's just for, you know, tasting and discovering. It's very interesting.
Daniella Fresne:
On a special occasion or somebody has a birthday, we'll see if we have a birth year sort of Champagne and we'll get that out to taste.
Pierre Fresne:
So that's always interesting and you realize when you, uh, disgorge those old, Champagne bottles that some vintages have a really, really interesting potential for aging. And, down in the winery - so, uh, part of the Champagne tradition is to blend years and so down in the winery, we, uh, we had (using the past) uh, quite a few, uh, reserve wines, a solera of Pinots, and I had relatively recently started a solera of Chardonnays. But because we're switching from non organic to organic production, we had to basically get rid of it.
Anshu Grover:
Oh, no!
Daniella Fresne:
Oh, it wasn’t disposed of.
Pierre Fresne:
It was sold. And so, uh, we just started
[00:40:00]
a new, uh, a new, new reserve wines this year from our very first organic harvest.
Anshu Grover:
I mean, it's basically hitting a reset button, right? When you get certified?
Pierre Fresne:
Absolutely. So, yeah, it feels like we're starting from scratch all over again.
Anshu Grover:
It's a lot of work. Again, I think it's not something that a lot of people understand or appreciate how much goes into it, and it comes at a cost, but it is such a beautiful commitment I think. So thank you for doing that and I think the consumer will respond positively.
Um, I wonder, Daniella, maybe I'll direct this question to you. If we could just leave listeners with a sense of where they can in the world they can find your Champagnes and how? I know about the Canadian market, but I would love for you to speak a little bit just about where you guys sell to, and how people can get their hands on your Champagnes.
Daniella Fresne:
In France, we sell directly to consumers, so we can ship to anyone anywhere in France.
In terms of export, we have importers in Germany. In Canada, we're distributed in Ontario, um, Quebec, and a little bit out in Alberta and Saskatchewan.
In the U.S, we have an importer who's based in Virginia, and they work with distributors in 28 states, I believe.
We have some product up in Finland. Finland is a monopoly market, like in Ontario. So we work with Alco up there. Um, we work with a small importer in Sweden, a small importer in the UK.
When we took over in 2006/2007, the only export market was Germany. So this is something that we've been working on for the last 15 years that slowly but surely has grown.
Anshu Grover:
Well, this is fantastic. It's been such a nice opportunity. I've been very excited to have the opportunity to connect with you. And I was so pleased when Daniella said that she was willing to set this up.
Um, because as I said, you know, it's such a
[00:42:00]
an honor for me to be able to meet with and talk to the people that bring myself and, uh, the people that listen to me about wine, pleasure, you know, when we enjoy our, our glass.
And just to hear from you, your passion, your story, your family story, and all that you're doing to make things better all the time, just, I think, makes it all that much better.
When can we expect to see the certified organic Champagne hit the market? Because I know you wanna lee's age it for a little bit longer….so when could we expect to see that product?
Daniella Fresne:
Not for 2025? Yeah, the earliest - 2025. We've bottled it in March ‘23. So 2025. That's only two years. Or I mean, if we release it for the end of the year, that's two and a half years.
That's still pretty short. That said, 2022 was a year where it was very hot, the wines were quite rich, uh, not super high in acidity, because all wines become less acidic as they age. While the wines are very good, they probably don't have a super long potential for aging.
So, I mean, we'll taste them. I mean, we never release something that we don't think is ready to to be drunk. Um, it's, it's not because the law says we can’t, but it's a smart thing to do. Um, obviously, if we're releasing something early, just, you know, for the sake of saying that we have organic bottles on the market um, and the wine isn't ready for it, it's not going to make the wines look good.
So, yeah, we're probably looking more like 2026. Um, but potentially, I mean, if, if the, if the flavor profiles are there in, uh, in 2025, who knows?
Anshu Grover:
Time will tell. And when that first release hits the market, I hope I can redo this with you guys, Champagne glass in hand, and then talk about what's actually in the glass and what's happened since then.
Daniella Fresne:
Why don't we have Champagne glasses in hand tonight?
Pierre Fresne:
I don't know!
Anshu Grover:
I was going to suggest it and I thought they might think she's day drinking! It's only two
[00:44:00]
o'clock in Toronto!!
Let's see, I had saved a bottle, so I'll be sure to have it now in light of this conversation. Okay, I'm going to close off with one last question.
As people who live, breathe, and do wine all day long, if you're not drinking your own Champagne (because of course you're always drinking your own Champagne!), what would be the favorite wine that would be in your glass? You don't have to give me the producer names, but just wine type or where from?
Pierre Fresne:
I’m a big fan of the Rhone Valley red wines, so nothing to do with Champagnes. A big contrast.
Anshu Grover:
Got it.
Daniella Fresne:
Also, for me, also Rhone Valley, Saint Joseph white (wine).
I had my first taste of a Saint Joseph white at a restaurant here in Reims, probably in 2010. And, uh, it, it marked me. And ever since, I mean, I don't think I've met a Saint Joseph white that I don't love.
Anshu Grover:
Love it. And Pierre, for yourself, Northern Rhone, Southern Rhone?
Pierre Fresne:
Well, that's why I remain vague. I love them all.
Anshu Grover:
Fair enough. Okay. Well, thank you so much for your time. And, um, I hope to meet you in person soon sometime if you ever make it to Toronto or if I make it to Champagne.
Daniella Fresne:
Yeah, absolutely. With pleasure. When you come to Paris, if you have a window and you want to come up for the day, we'd be happy to show you around.
Anshu Grover:
I would love that. Thank you so much.
Daniella Fresne:
Thank you.