In this episode, we talk with librarians Nicole Rawlinson, Priya Charry & Leah Larson about the intricacies of navigating conversations around equity, diversity and inclusion in the workplace. The trio emphasizes the importance of holding space for these conversations, the challenges of doing so as marginalized individuals, and why libraries should be working on the retention, not just hiring, of BIPOC employees.
This discussion was inspired by a presentation led by these three at the 2022 Public Library Association conference entitled, “Facilitating EDI Conversations in Professional Settings and Public Programming.”
Date of interview: July 25, 2022
Hosts: Brittany Young and Ericka Brunson-Rochette
In this episode, we talk with librarians Nicole Rawlinson, Priya Charry & Leah Larson about the intricacies of navigating conversations around equity, diversity and inclusion in the workplace. The trio emphasizes the importance of holding space for these conversations, the challenges of doing so as marginalized individuals, and why libraries should be working on the retention, not just hiring, of BIPOC employees.
This discussion was inspired by a presentation led by these three at the 2022 Public Library Association conference entitled, “Facilitating EDI Conversations in Professional Settings and Public Programming.”
Date of interview: July 25, 2022
Hosts: Brittany Young and Ericka Brunson-Rochette
[Intro Music Playing]
Brittany Young:
This is the podcast, OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries. Produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-racism Committee. On this episode, we will be talking about facilitating EDI conversations in the workplace.
My name is Brittany Young and my pronouns are she/her/hers.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
And my name is Ericka Brunson-Rochette. Pronouns are she/her/hers. And I'm a Community Librarian at Deschutes Public Library in central Oregon.
So we are so excited today to welcome Nicole Rawlinson, Priya Charry, and Leah Larson, three remarkable individuals joining us from varied library backgrounds across the U.S. And we're going to have a conversation about what brought the three of you to facilitating these types of discussions in libraries and in communities.
And I'm going to have Priya kick us off with your introduction.
Priya Charry:
Thanks, Ericka.
So yeah, my name is Priya Charry. I'm an Adult Services Librarian at the downtown Bremerton location of Kitsap Regional Library, as in Bremerton, Washington. And as a small branch librarian, I do a little bit of everything, but really, really love the aspects that let me do person-centered, community-centered conversations on a really personal development level.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Great. So we'll hear from Leah next.
Leah Larson:
I'm Leah Larson. Pronouns, she/her/ella. And I really came to this racial equity work as a staff developer, and I was a school librarian for a number of years, and then worked for the state of Minnesota at State Library Services. And recently I had a career change, maybe we'll talk a little more about that later. And I'm working right now as an independent library consultant. And I'm going to be starting pretty soon at 4-H of Minnesota, so doing some youth development work just in a different setting.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Wonderful. And Nicole.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Hi, my name's Nicole Rawlinson. I use she/her pronouns. I am currently working for a military family support nonprofit organization as a National Program Manager, but I began my career and interests in communities and building up equity in communities in libraries and museums. My first opportunity to have these types of conversations happened when I was managing an AmeriCorps program in Providence, Rhode Island with the Providence Children's Museum. And after that experience, I knew that I wanted everything that I did to kind of be steeped in those types of opportunities to create more equitable outcomes for the communities that I was serving. So I spent some time working at Kitsap Regional Library as a Teen Services Librarian before moving to the Washington DC area where I'm now working at the nonprofit that I just mentioned. And then also still doing some consulting and contract work around professional development for library staff and nonprofit staff who are doing this kind of direct service to communities.
Thanks for having me here.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, we are so excited and honored to have you joining us today. And as I'm sure the three of you know especially that these conversations can sometimes get kind of heavy. So we want to start off with a lighthearted question to get us rolling in this discussion. And so our first question for you today is, if you could only have one dessert for the rest of your lives, what would it be?
And I'm going to have Priya start us with that answer.
Priya Charry:
This is a big question, because I'm a big dessert person. I think I love a good sweet bread, so banana bread was my first option that came to mind, but specifically my mother makes really good banana bread and specifically the dough before she bakes it because she would always give a little bit of the batter out of the bowl. Not a great move, but I'm very, very fond of it. So, that would be me.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
What about you, Nicole?
Nicole Rawlinson:
Tiramisu is my first and only love, although cheesecake of any sort is also very good, but I feel like I have this loyalty to Tiramisu.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Great. And lastly, Leah.
Leah Larson:
I've put a lot of thought into this too and I decided on a fresh fruit panna cotta, so along the lines of a crème brûlée, but without the caramelized top. But then I want... I'm cheating because I want to be able to rotate the fruits, but I thought that might make the cut.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yeah, I wouldn't say that's cheating. That's just looking forward and preparing yourself for success. Wonderful answers.
Nicole Rawlinson:
So I just want to throw out there that we're going to talk a little bit about icebreakers and why putting people on the spot is not a great way to do an icebreaker, and I felt very much put on the spot with this dessert question. [Laughter] I'm not going to lie. I do like too many different types of desserts to be able to choose. I was like, "Oh, this is pressure right here."
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
That's a lot of pressure.
Nicole Rawlinson:
So, I hear you, Priya.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, I'm sorry for putting you on the spot too. I feel like that will set us up nicely for talking about why that can be a barrier in having these kinds of discussions. So thank you for sharing that, Nicole.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Anytime.
Brittany Young:
So, noted. The dessert question, don't use that one as an icebreaker. [Laughter] So our first serious question... I mean that was a serious question because it involves desserts, but "serious question." What difficulties or resistance are witnessed when trying to create spaces for discussions around EDI? And how have you navigated these challenges?
Leah, I'll call on you to answer this question first.
Leah Larson:
I think one of the biggest things that I've encountered, and I've encountered it again and again, is a real desire for folks, especially white folks who are engaging in the work to try to kinda shift the conversation away from the topic of race and onto something that maybe is a little bit more relatable for them. So gender and sex always come up when we're doing these conversations, for me at least. Folks sometimes want to talk about class differences. They want to talk about sometimes sexual orientation. And just really, I think that this is a real natural response. They want to find a way that they can relate to the feeling of oppression as white folks. And I think that that's really valid. And when I have that talk, I really do try to validate that. And I say like, "I understand that as people we're really conditioned to try to relate to things and that's a strength. But in this conversation we're really going to try to isolate race."
So we're also really conditioned to not want to talk about race in our kind of mainstream American culture. I think it can be a very taboo topic and something that we just look at. We don't want to deal with the implications of race, and history, and current politics, and people will go to great lengths to try to cut off those conversations. So, I acknowledge those things and then I say, "But we're going to fight against that here. We're going to really try to center race. We're going to really speak about it to the extent that we're going to really... If I feel like this is getting off track at all, even if it is somebody doing some personal sharing around another aspect of their identity, I'm going to redirect the conversation back to race."
And I make that a norm real early on as soon as it starts to come up. And usually, I have to revisit it a lot, to be honest with you. Usually the conversation does get off topic and I will let somebody go for a little while, and then I kind of gently redirect back to that conversation, back to centering race.
Brittany Young:
Thank you, Leah. Priya, what would you have to add to that answer?
Priya Charry:
I would definitely agree with Leah's comments there. I've seen that quite a bit specifically in inner staff discussions, not necessarily public facing. My response to this would be to add also, a difficulty for me personally as a slightly newer or earlier career librarian is that there's a lot of casual imposter syndrome floating around in the library world. And it really takes some very concerted effort to be able to even feel comfortable bringing it up as a concern as a newer employee and a workplace where you maybe don't overtly see like, "Hey, talking about EDI topics is normal. It's accepted. It's responded to."
So I started at my current workplace in 2018 and this is sort of the first full time stable librarian position I've ever had. So it took probably up until maybe last year to feel like I could feel comfortable saying, "Hey, I want to have this discussion with my staff." Or, "Can we bring this up at the next meeting?" Or, "Hey, I have this idea for a public facing program that is centered around race and EDI issues." That took a lot of inner work on my end as a newer librarian and also as a woman of color. It's not the most well reflected in our profession. But just seeing that that's an option or something that will be supported by your management, your leadership is a huge hurdle. And in my own example, once I did have the staff support and manager approval to move forward with this public program... I'll speak about it a little later... centered around race for community conversations. Then I was like, "Oh. Oh, this is something we can do. Wow. All right, let's get cooking. Let's start talking about this stuff."
Just the fact that no one had really even mentioned it or you'd hear about it in passing from other colleagues, that sort of feels like a big secret that was being kept until you realize, "Oh, a lot of people are thinking about this. Let's actually speak openly about it." So that would be I think the biggest difficulty that I'd face is just getting the institutional support and also the personal and professional confidence to be able to bring this stuff up when it's not explicitly solicited or encouraged.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
So we appreciate those responses from both of you. I especially really the comment, Priya, that you made about, you know these things do take time. We don't naturally step into our positions and feel encouraged or feel like we have the option or the right to be able to talk about certain things. I think navigating your workplace and really understanding where they are in their EDI journey is super helpful in knowing the best ways to bring up these topics and infiltrate for the purpose of education. So thank you both for those wonderful answers.
Our next question, and this is going to be for all of you is, as individuals of color, why do you choose to lead these conversations? What are you hoping to accomplish with these discussions?
And we'll start with Nicole, then go to Priya, and end with Leah on this one.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Well, thanks for that question. I want to start by saying that as a person of color, I also recognize that I have a privilege of being biracial, being relatively racially ambiguous, and also being married to a white man living in this world, navigating this world differently because of my own sets of experiences. And I don't know when I share with you my why for doing these kinds of conversations and being a part of these kinds of conversations, it has to do with me being a person of color or if it's just my "why." But I really do believe that engaging in these conversations and the action that's meant to come from those conversations is going to help to create a better environment for everyone, A better working environment, better services, more opportunities for mentorship and relationship building, right?
White supremacist culture, definitely definitively collectively hurts everyone. There's no way around that. It hurts me. It hurts you. It hurts white people. It hurts every single person. And until we can come out of that, we are not going anywhere and we're going nowhere fast. We are weighed down by the expectations of white supremacy that force us to erase parts of our identity, to fit into a specific category. It encourages us to forget about what makes us unique just for the sake of assimilation. And I hope that one day our future generations are going to know not only what it means to live in an equitable and inclusive society, but what it feels like, not only what it means to, but what it feels like to live an equitable and inclusive society. And that's my "why."
And so I don't know if that's because I'm a person of color or that is just my reasoning in general and how those two intersect, but I hope that that answers your question.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for that, Nicole. So, Priya.
Priya Charry:
That was a really beautiful answer, Nicole. I'm like, "Where do I go from that?" I resonate a lot with your experiences. I mean, I'm also in a similar position where I'm a biracial woman of color of relatively ambiguous ethnicity and working public service on a front desk where you're public facing, I sort of experience the whole range of people's reactions to someone who they feel they can speak openly to because you're in a position of service. Everything from like, "Oh my God, another person of color. Cool. Let me come talk to you a little bit more closely," to outright racism combined with a whole intersectional array of ugliness.
So from a public service perspective, I've learned to feel really comfortable with these conversations because, you know, lots of practice as librarians, as public facing librarians, but also I think it's been a really interesting way to dig a little deeper and push people to think about elements of their own identity that they've never really thought about, or have only touched on very briefly. Like I mentioned, I'm biracial. I have a white father and a mother of South Asian descent. And neither side has ever really talked about what it meant to have biracial multiracial kids. And so my sisters and I are growing up into as adults saying, "Wow, we never thought about this. This is really complicated. This is a really complex identity." So on a personal level, I'm still working through that.
But as a community conversation leader, I almost feel a little bit more confident knowing that, "Yeah, I'm struggling with this too. This is a weird place that we're in. It's okay if you don't have all the answers. It's okay if these are uncomfy conversations to have." In my place, I am growing to like that challenge of engaging my community in those conversations. On a very practical level, it's also because among my colleagues who were talking about really needing to have some sort of public program around racial equity was summer of 2020, lots of issues are coming to the forefront as they tend to do after extremely racially charged instance in the news, no one else in my workplace really made a move to lead these conversations. So I stepped up, which was a mixed response of, "Okay. Well, I'll take this for you." But also a little bit of excitement to do it. So I'm still working through those feelings as well. I do think that when it stops feeling like a fun challenge for me is when I will pass it off to my white colleagues.
Leah Larson:
I just want to second a lot of what Nicole and Priya have said. And also come from a mixed race background as a Mexican American and Anglo woman. I think that I really pass racially and I have the choice to self-identify and I feel like that privilege has gotten me far in life, far in my professional world, far in a lot of different ways. And I feel like part of that has also bought me the privilege to access these kind of professional circles and these spheres of influence that I think that it's really important that I do speak out within those.
And I also, as a mom... I'm actually married to South American indigenous woman who doesn't have access to those same levels of privilege. And I see that and I've seen that for a long time. We've been together for about 14 years. And my son is also indigenous Ecuadorian descent, as well as has my own background. And I think that I definitely... I want the world to be more fair for him, but I also want the world to be more fair for all my Latino families and all my friends of color. And in so many ways, echoing what Nicole said, that the way this oppressive systems of racism that we live under today, they don't serve anyone, but they're especially a disservice to BIPOC folks, and I'm really tired of it.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you all for feeling like this is a place and a space to be able to share parts of your identity and parts of your stories and experiences with us, both as hosts but also with our listeners out there.
Brittany Young:
All right. We're back to our icebreaker question that was previously mentioned. At the Public Library Association Conference in March, you all talked about doing icebreakers to create cohesion amongst participants. There are differing expectations and feelings on icebreakers amongst cultures and groups. How do you manage these? Do you have a go-to icebreaker? This question will be for Priya and Nicole.
Priya Charry:
Thanks, Brittany.
I think your icebreakers really depend on who you are talking to and what the goals of your discussion are, or if you know the people there or not, because that's sort of ups the difficulty factor of having people feel like they can talk to each other and open up a little bit.
With the group that I worked with is a public facing program, open to anyone and held virtually. So that's already a couple boundaries there where we're not seeing each other in person, we can't hang out over a cup of coffee before we start. It's all virtual. And these are folks who maybe haven't met each other before. So that's sort of icebreakers on hard mode for me. I find that people tend to like to talk about what they've been doing in terms of entertainment or leisure. Every time I've asked like, "Hey, I just finished a new show and I need something new to watch. What are you watching?" Everyone's got an answer. Whether or not I end up watching what they recommend is a different thing, but usually people feel comfortable giving recommendations, especially if we say like, "Hey, open to anything." Sort of par for the course in the library world, trading recommendations is kind of what we all do. But specifically with a room full of people who maybe don't know each other, that's sort of one area.
I also, in my community conversation group, make it a point to not have the icebreaker be part of the agenda. So it's sort of like the before we even start the program type of thing so that the equivalent would be maybe milling around in the room before the facilitator sits down and says, "All right, we're getting started." So that's means opening the Zoom room, letting people filter in, because they're always going to be people late to a meeting even if it's from their living room on their computer, and sort of filling that maybe three/five minutes before and after the start of the program to have people feel like they can settle in, grab a glass of water, or something to munch on and then during that downtime, put a question forth so that if they filter in a little late, it's not like they've missed the beginning of the program. They've really just sort of missed that icebreaker bit.
So for my program, I felt comfortable saying, "It's okay if we start late as long as people are vibing with each other." That's working with the public, not in a professional setting. I think it would work a whole lot differently that way, but primarily getting recommendations from people. And being with the library, they're used to getting recommendations from us. That's my favorite type of icebreaker is like, "Me, Priya, needs something new to read, needs something new to watch. What do I make for dinner the next couple of days?" Placing myself at the mercy of my patrons and my participants that has worked really well with our program.
I am curious to hear from y'all though from a professional setting side, because I really haven't facilitated many internal staff meetings, what that would look like.
Brittany Young:
Nicole, do you maybe have some tips for the professional areas?
Nicole Rawlinson:
Yeah. So interestingly enough, I really agree with Priya wholeheartedly on the, what are you watching, what are you listening to, what are you consuming kind of questions. Icebreakers have always been really tough for me in both community conversations as well as in professional settings, because I just spend so much time before the meeting just cringing over what kind of invasive or confronting question is going to pop up soon as we start our meeting. And so it gives me this pre-meeting anxiety almost. And so as I think about how I can create a really comfortable environment for people as we're getting started in these more professional conversations where we do want to go in feeling like we can talk to each other and stuff like that, I think that they can be done well and can be effective if they're done right. And especially if they're happening in these continuously occurring meetings, right? They're done in a way that's expected. Non-confronting gives people a place to warm up without requirement.
And I think that that's another thing, it's like you don't have to participate in it. And I think that Priya kind of mentioned that, in that Zoom space, it not being necessarily a part of the day's agenda per se. And yes, we will include it on the agenda, but it's understood that if you don't have anything to add to it or you just don't feel like it, then don't, right? And I also have been taking this opportunity over the course of the last few months since presenting at PLA to lean towards the idea of thinking about these activities as an opener versus an icebreaker. And the term icebreaker on its own, when we think about it, when we say those words out loud, it suggests we have nothing in common and we need something to literally cut through this iceberg that's separating us.
So let's think about it as an opener, as opposed to an icebreaker. And I really like the idea of a question of the day that kind of stays relatively consistent. So what's something you've learned this week? What are you listening to? I don't want to ask people because I have never wanted to answer really personal or aspirational questions, but I think that you can establish a sense of group comfort and even create connections with other people with the right opener. So perhaps you're introducing a new idea, or something new to absorb, or you learn that you have a shared interest with someone else in the room. Those are great opportunities to create connection and then create community within these conversations that we're having. So as someone who has always been team no icebreaker, coming into this place where I am now, not only accepting but excited about openers has been a cool experience for me.
Brittany Young:
I'm going to start using #opener instead of #icebreaker. Thank you.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes. [Laughter]
Brittany Young:
Thank you both for those wonderful answers. I too have that anxiety. It's even worse when they're calling on people or you have to call on somebody and I'm just waiting. I'm like, "When are they going to call on me? When are they going to call on me?" So I like openers, that idea, a lot better.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes, thank you for that. I agree, I really like what you had to say about icebreaker, even just in the terminology there. I haven't thought of it like that, but it is in fact this really great big barrier between people. And we're trying to create bridges so that we can share perspectives, and thoughts, and find ways that we actually have more commonality with each other instead of trying to break apart this big looming thing that exists in between us. So thank you for that.
And it also reminded me just as a student, when I was a kid, I both would always eagerly want to share because I didn't know when to stop talking. But also would get so nervous that while I was waiting for it to be my turn, all I could think about was like, "What am I going to say? How is it going to come across?" And it never left me time to actually listen with intent with what other people had to say. So I appreciate that perspective.
So my next question is for all three of you, and so often it feels like these conversations intentionally go nowhere and are used as a tactic in a war of attrition, designed to run down the clock or wear out BIPOC staff until we voluntarily leave the institution or profession. At what point should EDI conversations transform into action.
And I'm going to have Leah start us off with the answer for this one, and then go to Priya. And then lastly, Nicole.
Leah Larson:
I mean, I do think that that needs to happen pretty quickly. And I don't think that those things are mutually exclusive. I think that the conversations and the learning need to continue while the action is already happening. I think people need a little bit of basic grounding in systemic racism, and in microaggressions, and in how unconscious bias manifests so that they can start to be conscious of those things in their interactions with BIPOC colleagues, BIPOC patrons, or whatever the case is. But then I think it's time for them to start looking at, "What are you going to do? Where is this showing up in your workplace? Where is this showing up in your personal interactions? And what can you do about that?" I think that in order for racial equity work to really be meaningful, it should be grounded in those things. It should be grounded in our professional practice. It should be about how those things are manifesting for us. So I think that dichotomy is a little bit of a false dichotomy. I don't think it's either/or. I think that those things need to really happen together.
Priya Charry:
Yeah. That's a great point, Leah. I feel like that's all really crucial to keep in mind, even as you're thinking conceptually what should these conversations…what should their outcomes be before you even start thinking about getting in the room together?
From a public programming perspective, when we think about library programs, we think a lot about outcomes and what we want our participants and our patrons to get out of those. And that's the same across all ages, all areas of content. But specifically for these conversations that I was facilitating, it was primarily adults - some teens and young adults present as well - but the goal, when we conceptualized what a community conversation about racial equity would look like, the goal for that was primarily just to talk about racial equity, because there really aren't very many places where you can do so with your neighbors, with your community members, with total strangers. Of course, that's not quite an outcome itself, it's just an overarching goal.
So as the program settled into the form that it took for just about two years and starting in 2020 was a model of get together to learn something, come together to share something, and then take away something once you leave. So the name of the program, the Anti-Racism Learning Circle was ideally a circle where we can all learn from each other and then share resources, share thoughts, share inspiration, and head out into our individual lives, hopefully do something, however that looks to you. So we would have some small learning piece. A chunk of the Zoom program would be then sharing our thoughts, experiences, reactions. And then lastly, the most important part for this question would be the take action element. And that was something where, as a facilitator, I tried to come with a general prompt, but really have people thinking toward the end of this hour of discussion together, what do you feel like doing? What do you have the energy for right now.
So it ended up being a lot of sharing about events happening, protests, rallies, fundraisers, just things happening online, things happening in-person. But also a lot of resource sharing which, as the library, we are really happy to see that. But having it happen from community member to community member and say, "Hey, I read this book. It taught me a lot. You're going to love it. Oh, it's backed up at the library. I'll lend you my copy." Having those personal connections was just the sweetest and also the most energizing thing. So the goal was to have those action steps not feel like homework prescribed from the library lady to these participants, but really say, "Hey, you're feeling energized now. You have some background of knowledge about whatever we've talked about that day. Be it microaggressions or racial discrimination in health. What have you? "What do you feel like you need to be doing out in your life, in your community to make things happen?" Sort of start to crack this facade of what you've learned today, which was really, really energizing, I have to say.
As a facilitator, it was really cool to see people taking that onto themselves, which was the complete opposite…I honestly had feared that it would end up being just total silence and have me facilitating at the end saying, "All right. Well, what do we want to do? I'm not going to give you homework." And thankfully, the participants were in the right place, right time, right people. I think that's a really special and unique setting for members of the public. I've felt that type of energy in staff meetings as a participant myself, but they're always more structured with more staff training outcomes, that type of thing. So this is a really unique perspective where I'm really glad to be seeing this happen, really having faith in my community as both a public servant, serving them and also as someone who lives here and works here and knows that my neighbors, specifically my white neighbors, are really taking these topics to heart and trying to do something about it.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Priya, I love that the conversation itself in the Anti-Racism Learning Circle is action, right? And it's so awesome that those things have come together so seamlessly. And that is really a sign that you have created a community within that group. And so I love to hear that. That's really awesome. So cool.
From a more structural place, I guess, I think that these conversations in the workplace, they really do need to be a part of an already extant roadmap to action, because if we're just talking at work, if we're just talking, we're having all of this time devoted to these meetings and we have literally nowhere to go with it, then what is the point? When are we going to start doing the work? And I know that in a lot of organizations, that requires engaging from the leadership level. It would be so shortsighted to hold these organizational conversations without some sort of plan of action for responding to the needs that are uncovered. And it requires not only making time investments, but community investments and financial investments as well.
So with each of these conversations, there needs to be follow up. Just like Priya mentioned in the community conversations, there has to be a follow-up. What have we learned? What have we uncovered? What changes can we implement immediately? What supports can leadership institute? And where do we need help with those solutions? And I think that, that's really the big one that a lot of organizations are missing the mark on. Not every institution will be able to do this work on their own. There are incredibly talented professionals in the consulting space that can support policy and structural changes. This is an investment and it's not just a time filler. And I feel like "we just don't have the budget for this," is the ultimate death blow to creating any sort of structural change.
And so at a point, you kind of see that this institution just is not planning to take the work any further. You can see it in unchanged policies. You can see it in antiquated procedures that impact not only the staff, but the public, and in the very structure of organizations. So when we think about it from the perspective of these conversations that we're having inside of our organizations, inside of our systems, they have to be a part of a roadmap to action. They have to go in tandem with actual actionable steps that have been outlined, and that can be backed up. We need to actually be putting our money where our mouth is on this.
And so that's where I took this question and I hope that there are some executive directors in the audience today, listening to that, getting ready to add some dollars and cents to their upcoming budgets around EDI work both internally and to the public.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Wow. Thank you, all three of you. Those were such powerful thoughts and perspectives. But also just, even in your answers, you gave us so many action items to work with. And as we know, that's what's lacking, like we aren't putting our money where our mouth is. And hopefully, that will start to change as we make space and time for these discussions, and we give those concrete takeaways that people can truly act upon. So thank you for that.
Brittany Young:
Yes, thank you. And to what you said earlier too, Nicole, putting your money where your mouth is in this area is truly going to help everyone.
So our next question starts with, oftentimes EDI discussions in the workplace focus on addressing diversity related issues like. "How do we hire staff of color?" or "How do we connect with communities of color?" Without addressing equity and inclusion, what questions should we be asking insofar as equity and inclusion are concerned? What barriers need to be removed?
And the first call on Leah and then Nicole.
Leah Larson:
Yeah, I think that this is an important question because I think that the diversity conversations that happen are pretty surface level. I think that until we start to dig into equity and inclusion, we're not necessarily doing the work. I think diversity conversations have been happening for a very, very long time and they haven't done much to address those kind of structural barriers and interpersonal barriers that are in place that really impact people of color in the workplace. I think that one thing, one of the questions, instead of asking about hiring BIPOC folks is, ask about how are we retaining BIPOC folks? What kind of experience are BIPOCs folks having here as this as a workplace, as a library, as customers here, as community members here? I think that starts to get into inclusion. And I think inclusion is important. I think inclusion in that sense of belonging, is the kind of a deeper level that can tell you what kind of an environment is your institution creating?
So I think that it's really important to look at, are we really still replicating and embracing very white centered institution, a very white centered workplace, and we're expecting BIPOC employees to really assimilate into that workplace and to go along to get along? Or are we really making a space that welcomes multiple perspectives? That starts to look towards inclusion.
Equity, I think to start to look at where inequities are showing up in the workplace or even a step deeper, I think there's a lot of data that workplaces can look at in terms of employee retention, employee engagement. My former workplace always did these engagement surveys and then the data never went anywhere. Who knows if they even racially disaggregated that data that was collected? I'm sure they didn't because they didn't really want to know. But I think that, that's a step you can take to start to look at equity is to start to look at outcomes and to start to look at data because it's just a story that I think that a lot of managements and administrations like to sweep under the rug.
Brittany Young:
Thank you, Leah. Nicole.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Okay. This is a really good question. And unfortunately, being the person who over prepares for things, I have a whole page of things written, a whole tangent [Laughter] from several different perspectives. So I'm going to try really hard to just stay on topic, if it's at all possible.
But gosh, there's so many factors in this conversation. Rather than just trying to recruit BIPOC staff, I think we should hone in onto something that I've been thinking about for a really long time. And I think Ericka can probably attest to this because I talked about it when I was applying for my job at Kitsap Regional Library, where we worked together many moons ago. I think that we should be thinking about the barriers that we create for people at a very young age. We're talking about finding ways to encourage more BIPOC individuals to apply to positions and stuff. But then we're over here and we're treating kids in a way that suggests that they don't belong or that they're not meant to be in our community…in our library communities or in our community centers.
When I think about finding workplace satisfaction, I'm immediately drawn to whether or not I feel a sense of belonging and appreciation in that space. So if we look at the historical treatment of young kids of color in libraries, and for that matter in most public spaces, there is not necessarily a feeling of trust, or belonging, or appreciation for those kids. Policies themselves are written in a way that makes it super easy to just throw your hands up and throw kids out for minor infractions. Collections are not representative of the diversity of communities. People working in these spaces don't often reflect the community or the kids who may come into a space looking to find a mirror. And so the way I look at it is like, kids who might just find the really awesome career calling, if they could see themselves in these roles or they could feel appreciated in these spaces, aren't finding that right now.
And so for starters, I feel like we need to start looking at how we treat our young people in these spaces, because if we want to grow a more diverse workforce, we need to start finding ways to treat our young people better. And so that's my first piece around building up more diverse workforces, and workforces more representative of the communities where they are. And I know that, that's not exactly what the question was, but I really think that it's something that we do need to be thinking about.
Now internally, I think that we do also need to be asking questions around our policies and procedures and how those policies and procedures that we have are harmful to the community and what changes we can be making at a structural level to mitigate harm that's been caused. I know that this question is a lot more around hiring individuals, but I also think that there was an element of this question around how do we support BIPOC communities? And so that's where I'm coming from. What hoops are we really asking people to jump through in order to use a public service? We need to just be asking these questions about how we can change the systems when we think about equity and inclusion not only for this internal professional space, but for the public services that are being offered?
And so I hope that my perspective on this more from the community aspect is appreciated and considered because I think that when we treat our community better, we will also find that more members of our community want to come, and work, and stay in our community spaces.
Priya Charry:
Could I add a thought on that as well? This is Priya. I'm sorry to jump in before you do, Brittany. I just wanted to add...thinking on Nicole and Leah's answers and also the question that you'd asked earlier about hiring staff of color and connecting with communities of color, I think the bridge thought to that is like, "What do we expect our BIPOC staff to do once they're hired that leads into their ultimate retention rates? Are we expecting more, or less, or different from our BIPOC staff than our majority demographic staff? Is it only BIPOC staff who are doing outreach to communities of color because it puts on a good face for the library?" And then once those communities of color come into our spaces, they're like, "Oh. Oh. Oh, actually it looks a lot different than the one or two staff members we've been interfacing with outside of the library."
Are there implicit expectations of staff of color or do we want to think that they only serve one specific community, or one specific region, or have one subject area expertise? Are we giving them the full range of the experience of being a library worker that we give the rest of our library workers from the majority demographics? So those are all some thoughts that were kicking around. I fully agree with everything Leah and Nicole have said.
Brittany Young:
Thank you, all.
I can't remember if this conversation was before we started recording or not, but one of the conversations was basically about white supremacy culture being shortsighted and just doing to do, not thinking about the outcomes or even the whole picture. And so I feel like all of you touched on that a little bit in your answers, and I very much appreciate that. I noticed that myself and it's very frustrating. And I also really appreciated, Nicole, your answer about starting with the young people. Having been a youth services librarian, 100% agree with this.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes, thank you for all of the passion, honestly, behind those responses. I feel like those are all things that specifically librarians and professionals of color that we notice, and it is difficult to think of ways that we can incite change at the levels and permissions that we have, which are often not enough, right?
And again, Nicole, when you were speaking about one way to do that is looking at how we treat our young people and trying to see through their eyes what they're viewing when they come into our spaces? Are they seeing others that look like them? Are they seeing efforts for us to really make inclusive spaces, to have reflections of their identities and how they move about the world reflected in the spaces that we have? So I really appreciate that. I've appreciated all of the wonderful responses and discussion that we've had today. And it's all led up to this last question that we have, because we could probably continue this conversation for hours. Your expertise and knowledge has been just absolutely wonderful. But my last question is going to be for Nicole and for Leah and that is, what is the benefit for a marginalized person in leading these discussions as the work is not generally valued in terms of employment or return on investment?
So Nicole, we'll go to you first and then we'll end with Leah.
Nicole Rawlinson:
I think that the value is a personal level for me. I don't necessarily think that there's a huge return on investment for me to do these types of conversations…to facilitate these types of conversations. But I do believe that intrinsically I am benefited from having these conversations, from learning new things about my colleagues, from finding ways to create connections and finding opportunities to really seek change within our communities, within our workplaces. And so I don't believe, and this is disheartening in a way, I don't believe that my interest in facilitating equity-based conversations or advancing equity work within my work patterns are going to necessarily create new opportunities for me within my workplace. I don't necessarily believe that this is going to get me a promotion. I don't believe that it's going to create a brand new position for me. And to be really honest with you, I would be terrified to take a position that was titled EDI anything, because we see these positions opening, being funded for about a year by a grant, and then it not being funded any longer.
And so I think that this work to me personally is really more intrinsically valuable than it is valuable to my job. But I also believe that it makes me a better professional to have these experiences, to facilitate these conversations, to be a part of something that supports creating a better environment for everyone to work in. We know that when we have a workplace that is steeped in being equitable, steeped in transparency, and sharing responsibility, and sharing power, we have better outcomes within our internal community. And so to me, I think that's really what continues to drive me. I'm not expecting this to change the trajectory of my career. I'm just expecting that the organizations that I work for and the communities that I serve will ultimately gain more from me being there and doing that work than they would without.
Leah Larson:
I think for me the benefits also... I'm in a unique position right now because I don't have an employer who I have to worry about how they're going to perceive the way I talk about this, which is a lot of freedom because the return on investment for me has really been personal. It's been about building relationships with other folks who are really committed to equity. When I engage in equity work like this, the colleagues of mine, especially with a lot of my BIPOC colleagues, but also with my white colleagues, I'm able to really find out who is committed to equity on a really deep level, and who…this is personal work to them, and they're engaged in this for reasons that go a lot deeper than a requirement that the agency is giving about attending a training or about setting an equity goal or whatever it is.
So it helps me to build up my personal network. And then in turn, my personal network helps me to sustain my energy and being able to do this work because there's a lot of pushback and there's a lot of opposition. And the opposite of return on investment that the equity work has gotten me has been substantial. There's been a lot of stuff. There's been a lot of stuff that I've faced for engaging in this kind of work, and being vocal about it, and taking on a leadership role. And it hasn't gotten me promoted. It has gotten me, I think, the esteem and recognition of the colleagues who I care the most about, who are the other colleagues who are committed to equity. And it's brought us together. And it's helped me to form collegial relationships and relationships with them outside of work. They've become my work friends and folks who are really part of my network.
And those things have been huge. Those things have been really meaningful and have been worth so much. It definitely helps me to sleep at night. No matter what my actual job at the agency is, this is my work. My work is around equity. It's not what I get paid for and it's not what's in my job description, but it's what's really important to me on a personal level. And being able to...well, I do get paid for it, you know, but being able to do that as part of my work is a tremendous privilege. It's so great to be able to spend part of my work time doing this, even if it's kind of an add-on and even if it's not my main job, I do feel very grateful to have had that as part of my work in I think all of my long-term employers.
And I also think that building this equity skill set, I think it did help me get the job that I'm starting, my current job. And hopefully, what it did was help me to be better placed in an organization that really believes in equity and that really is committed to equity even when it's hard, even when it's uncomfortable, even when it's risky. So I guess I'll see about that one, but that's my hope.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Wonderful. Thank you.
And I want to take this opportunity, if there are any last thoughts or perspectives that any of you would like to share, or just any closing comments, I welcome you to do so now. You can just unmute for this.
Priya Charry:
Really just grateful that you all are providing this platform for us to share with each other, and learn from each other, and connect in community and be challenged. And take this good energy and keep going with the good work we're doing. It's a really valuable space led by really cool people. And I'll be sharing it widely. And I hope that people who are listening to this are really taking the experiences they're hearing to heart and taking that energy and moving it forward. So thank you for having us…really.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, thank you for joining us. Thank you, all. This has been an equally gratifying experience for us on this end, and I am hopeful in saying that it has been as well for our listeners out there. So thank you for coming on and sharing your stories, your perspectives, and I wish you all the best in continuing this work. We know it's not easy, but I think today you have provided tools and some techniques for other people to really be energized into…push this work forward themselves. So thank you for that. And we are just very grateful.
Brittany Young:
You all are rock stars to me. Thank you.
Nicole Rawlinson:
Thank you for having us.
Leah Larson:
Yeah, thank you. This was a really great conversation.
Priya Charry:
Absolutely.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Well, that was an amazing conversation that we had with three phenomenal individuals. Thank you so much, Brittany, for being my co-host for this conversation. I just feel so honored to have been part of that discussion. I feel like I have grown tremendously from listening to the voices and experiences of just people who are out there really doing this work.
So one of the things that was brought up during our conversation that really resonated with me was, when we were having that conversation around return on investment in having these conversations specifically for marginalized people and leading them or being involved in them, and I believe it was Leah that brought up the fact that, yes, you can have some moments where your bucket is filled and you do have some things that really are gratifying, and you know you're doing a great job. But oftentimes, and sometimes more realistically for marginalized folks, doing this work and having these conversations can be draining. And oftentimes, there is no return on investment. And sometimes there are negative consequences.
And when we were talking about that, Leah mentioned that having that network of people in your life, really finding others that understand the value in continuing on with this work and continuing to have these conversations that that can be so energizing and uplifting. And so that's something that really stuck with me because I do have moments where I just feel tired and I feel like I'm just in this hamster wheel of having the same kind of discussions, doing the trainings, doing all the work and not getting anywhere. But knowing that there are others on this journey with me, does help energize me. And having that sense of welcome and just shared interest in a space is so important.
Brittany Young:
That was beautifully said, and it makes me think of the whole spoony idea…or marble jar friends, for those who read Brené Brown. Go look it up. [Laughter]
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yeah. Exactly.
Brittany Young:
For me. I had a piece together different... Because I look for patterns, so I pieced together different things from everybody. And Nicole started some of the conversation out with how EDI and anti-racism work, it makes things better for everyone. So it is truly equity-based. And then I think it was Priya who talked about how we need to normalize these conversations. And then Leah had talked about how, in these conversations, we really do have to centralize race because of the fact that we are specifically taught to not talk about it. So I mean, even to normalize it in the first place, we need to centralize it. That way we can see the full picture, which brought me back to, which I think I referenced this in the conversation was the conversation that we started before we hit record.
But we were talking about how white supremacy culture has a tendency to be shortsighted. You're not looking at a full picture. You're looking at the trees, not the whole forest, all kinds of analogies, which brought me to my takeaway, which is I really like the idea of not calling an icebreaker, an icebreaker, but calling it an opener instead because we really are...we're opening that smaller circle and that smaller view that we see through white privilege and white supremacy culture. We're opening it up, we're expanding it, so that way we can see more perspectives and we can see the larger picture, which is really how we're going to solve problems.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Absolutely. That was very beautifully spoken, Brittany.
Brittany Young:
Thank you. And thank you, Ericka, for being my co-host.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes, of course.
So I have a thank you to our audience as well, but also I have a action item. So something that we are going to ask you to really think on and challenge yourselves to grow forward in having these conversations and to really expand your knowledge around these topics. And so this one comes from something that Priya brought up in our conversation today that she utilizes and uses in the spaces where she facilitates these conversations. And that is the idea of, when you are getting together a group, to first think of something that you want to learn. What is it that is bringing you together? And then think of something that you want to share to add to that conversation, something that might help others grow from that conversation, or something that might help spark empathy and compassion amongst other people in that space. And then lastly, that do something element. What is the action that you commit to doing after you've left those conversations?
Do you have any challenges for our listeners out there, Brittany?
Brittany Young:
My challenge was my takeaway part of the calling it an opener.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes.
Brittany Young:
And with the opener, having it be something that is more fun that we're all reading or watching something. We're consuming something. I really liked that way of putting it, we're consuming something. Maybe it's…favorite-
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
What are you watching? What are you listening to? Yeah.
Brittany Young:
What dessert did you have recently? [Laughter]
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
I don't know. [Laughter] That seems like it could be point of contention. It is a hard question. If you can only have one dessert forever, that is a really difficult conversation to have.
Brittany Young:
Yeah. Maybe it's the forever part. Maybe just, what dessert have you wanted this month? [Laughter]
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yeah, what dessert can you treat yourself to today? Well...[Laughter]
Brittany Young:
Right. And making it so you don't have to answer the question. You just can if you want to, any random order.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
Yes. Interact with that how you will and at what comfort level you have.
Brittany Young:
Yeah, don't make people anxious.
Ericka Brunson-Rochette:
There were so many wonderful takeaways today. So thank you again, Brittany, for going on this journey with me. And thank you to our listeners out there.
Brittany Young:
Yes. Thank you.
[Voiceover]
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon.
Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.”
[Voiceover]
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and black people on ancestral land stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor native American ancestors past present and future whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgment aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade enforced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.
[Outro Music Playing]