We are joined in this episode by Nichelle M. Hayes, MPA, MLS, founding director of the Center for Black Literature & Culture, and former CEO (Interim) of the Indianapolis Public Library, and current President of the Black Caucus of the American Library Association (BCALA).
Hayes shares her background in human resources with us as she discusses ways that HR departments can help library organizations become more inclusive, diverse, and supportive of BIPOC library staff. She brings concrete suggestions for how HR departments and, by extension, library directors can advance EDI from theory to practice. The discussion ranges from how administrators can support BIPOC staff to how mentors and professional groups can likewise be of support.
Visit her blog at https://thetiesthatbind.blog
Hosts: Ericka Brunson-Rochette & Bryan Miyagishima
Date of Interview: October 26, 2023
We are joined in this episode by Nichelle M. Hayes, MPA, MLS, founding director of the Center for Black Literature & Culture, and former CEO (Interim) of the Indianapolis Public Library, and current President of the Black Caucus of the American Library Association (BCALA).
Hayes shares her background in human resources with us as she discusses ways that HR departments can help library organizations become more inclusive, diverse, and supportive of BIPOC library staff. She brings concrete suggestions for how HR departments and, by extension, library directors can advance EDI from theory to practice. The discussion ranges from how administrators can support BIPOC staff to how mentors and professional groups can likewise be of support.
Visit her blog at https://thetiesthatbind.blog
Hosts: Ericka Brunson-Rochette & Bryan Miyagishima
Date of Interview: October 26, 2023
[Intro Music Playing]
Ericka Brunson-Rochette
Hello and welcome to Overdue, Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Antiracism Committee. I am Ericka Brunson-Rochette, she/her pronouns, a community librarian working and living in central Oregon.
Bryan Miyagishima
And I am Bryan Miyagishima. And today we are very honored to have Nichelle M. Hayes on the show. Nichelle M. Hayes, has a Masters in Public Administration and MLS is the president of the Black Caucus of the American Library Association, BCALA. She works as an information professional with a focus on the African diaspora, community engagement and inclusion. As an active member of ALA, she has served on the 2023 ALA Nominating Committee and you can visit her blog at https://thetiesthatbind.blog.
Bryan
We usually start, Nichelle, with an icebreaker question. And we saw that you began your library career as an elementary media specialist. I worked as a high school media specialist for a couple years myself. And during that time, we ran into the most horribly outdated educational technology inside that library. So, our first question is, what's the most antiquated piece of equipment or technology you can remember during these days?
Nichelle M. Hayes
You know what, it's really interesting. I had the exact opposite experience. It was a brand new building, a brand new school, and what I did was I took a room that had some books thrown in there and actually turned it into a lending library. So, I was able to build that from the ground up, picked every book, and I worked with K through fifth graders. And so, I was able to tell them about technology, how to navigate the web and to see things that were appropriate versus just, you know, everything happens on the web and it's not all true.
And so, I had kind of the opposite experience there. Our equipment was new. But it was really fascinating and I see my students now and they're in college or they've graduated or they're just out working. And I'll look at their faces and I'm like, I think I know them. And then they're like, Miss Hayes, Miss Hayes. And so that is just so special to be able to just pour into young people like that. And I'll just tell everybody, just speak life into young people. Tell them what you see. Tell them that you see someone who's incredible, who's smart, who's capable. Like that little small seed just will really grow into a mighty oak.
Bryan
That sounds like a great start to a career. Thank you.
Ericka
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Nichelle. So, could you take us through the other steps in your career journey to your current position, including those experiences that you've had before becoming a librarian, if you're open to sharing?
Nichelle
Sure, I would be. I would say that I've been an overnight success, chukka, and that overnight was decades. So, I started out doing work part-time. I did a lot of temporary work. I sat out for a time before I finished my bachelor's degree, so a lot of different jobs, doing a lot of different things.
I was actually an operator in a small organization, so I...took calls and looked up numbers and all kinds of things like that. And then I did get my bachelor's degree in human resources, and I immediately went and got a master's degree in public administration with that focus in HR. And then from there, I worked as a generalist. I worked as a recruiter.
I also worked as an HR director. So, I've done kind of everything from soup to nuts with HR. And so that's always a hat that I wear. And so I'm always thinking about kind of the HR function and what should be appropriate and how we should navigate. And I see HR as being a liaison between staff and management. So not necessarily doing the bidding of one or the other but being someone that's in the middle who can help to navigate and keep people on the right course. So, it's been very interesting.
Ericka
Wonderful. Yeah, and that's a, I think a great perspective to take because we know that not all organizations or not all HR departments do view it that way. And it sounds like you've worn lots of hats, all those hats that are building up through that journey. Do you have any shout outs to individuals who you've mentored or who have mentored you or have opened doors along the way?
Nichelle
Absolutely, and I say that my first shout out is Sylvia M. Hayes, my mom, and the late Ronzo L. Hayes, my dad. Without them, none of this would be possible. And you know, for me growing up, I was like, oh, my mom's so mean, you know, I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere. But wow, I look back on it now and I say, she kept me safe. She did so much, put me in a lot of extracurricular activities.
I was in Girl Scouts from the time I was in first grade till I was a senior in high school. I was a first-class Girl Scout, which is the equivalent to an Eagle Scout with the Boy Scouts. And we did just so many things. And she just gave me and my sister, Serena, just this amazing foundation where we were able to go out into the world to be fully fledged human beings that were not scarred. She kept us safe.
And my dad was a reader, someone who really had a really calm demeanor. And so, I got a lot from both of them. So, um and because I'm a genealogist, that's what I do in my spare time, chukka, chukka. I'm always thinking about ancestors and your family and what they pour into you. And so, um I would definitely have to shout them out. Professionally, I would shout out Marcia Smith-Woodard. She was actually the person who was in charge of the fellowship program that enabled me to get my MLS. So, I was a part of a Laura Bush fellowship program, Indiana Librarians Leading in Diversity. And Marcia Smith-Woodard was kind of our executive director, mother hen, a shoulder to cry on, someone to encourage. She's retired now, but I do keep in touch with her. And her just encouraging me and telling me I can do it.
And just helping me to navigate library school was invaluable. I would not have been able to be successful without her. And then Kisha Tandy is a colleague, and we've been friends for many years, and we were just catching up. And I said, hey, what are you doing? She said, oh, I'm in school. I said, really, are you? She told me about it. She was doing the fellowship, and she said, you should apply. And honestly, if she had not mentioned that to me,
I would not be in this field probably. And so it's just important to think about the people that have poured into you. None of us gets here by ourselves despite what people tell you about that whole bootstrap thing. Most of us have no boots nor straps. And so, there are a lot of people that are doing great things in order to get you where you are. And so, I always like to lift while I climb. And I always like to pour that into others. So, there's a person that needs a mentor and they might not know it. So, you should just reach out to people, connect folks, encourage them, tell them about a conference, maybe pay for it if you can. I think that's just really important.
Ericka
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing about all of those influential and powerful people along your path. And I know that you are probably out there for other people. You are that person too. And there is a place and a time where they will mention your name as someone who really helped them along their journey.
Nichelle
I sincerely hope so, definitely.
Bryan
Yeah, I can appreciate that as well, Nichelle, because I would not be in the position I were in right now without a hand up, I'm sure of that, or a push on the back.
Nichelle
Exactly.
Bryan
You know, I think that's a good lead in though to our next question about we initially approached you to ask about your experience in HR and the role of HR in organizations and then followed up by what does HR proficiency in EDI look like?
Nichelle
I think HR has a huge role in EDI, but if I were being honest, I think most HR departments are falling short. I think there's a lot of performance, there's a lot of alphabet soup, there's even a lot of training, but I'm not seeing the fruits of those labors. And so ultimately, human resources should be about fairness and equity. And as I said before, a liaison between staff and managers. And so, what the HR department, especially the HR director, they've got to lead and guide and train managers with what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. And so, I was thinking a lot about what could we do to make this different?
I think blind resumes would be very beneficial. Uh, taking off things that would maybe make you believe someone is BIPOC versus not. I think blind interviews would not be a bad idea. I think maybe just hearing someone's voice, taking out the photo or the picture, and just letting you listen to what that person is saying. Because so often what we're seeing in librarianship, unfortunately, we're just doing the same old thing, over and over and over again, and expecting different results. So, 87% of our profession is white women and then white men are in leadership. And so, there are 7%, excuse me, that are Black. And that number has not really increased. What I've experienced is that you'll have a person that'll come into the organization and then someone will retire. So, basically it's an even swap.
We're not gaining any kind of momentum. And we are graduating from library school, obviously, but people are not getting positions. And there's lots of excuses, oh, well, they didn't fit the culture. Oh, this individual, you know, was just a better fit with what we were doing. But when you're looking at it, they look very much like everyone that's already there and the people that are selecting them.
And I think we've just got to call that out and say, this is not working. And here's why it's not working. Because we have to effectively represent the communities we serve. So, we can't have that cultural understanding and humility and competency if we don't have people that are part of those different groups. And so, you can't continue to expect people to lead where they've never been.
And so we've got to really look at it. Who are we hiring? Who are we reaching out to? And are we really trying to even the playing field? And I think data is what's very important. So we've got to have a pool that is representative. That's first off. And then we also have to have environments that are non-toxic. Let's just be very honest about that. So, we have institutions, libraries, that people wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole if they had any other choice. Everybody knows about them. And so, you can't expect that you're going to get BIPOC individuals, Black in particular, if you've got this toxic work environment. So, I think we've gotta kinda dig down to the foundation and work on that and then have some hard conversations. We've gotta be able to look ourselves in the mirror and say, so what am I doing to help? Or...what am I doing to her?
Ericka
Thank you for sharing those specific things that we're seeing and some actions that we can take against them. We know that affinity bias hits real hard when it comes to recruitment and hiring and retention in this profession. So, thank you for sharing some actionable things that folks can do.
So, we know it's been three years since the 2020 call to action, and from an observational standpoint, it appears as if not much has changed. Or at least that seems to be the general consensus amongst many library staff of color and marginalized groups who are still faced with oppressive and unjust work environments. What is keeping the profession and HR departments from more quickly moving EDI from theory to practice? Are we facing a war of attrition?
Nichelle
That's a really interesting question, and I think it's one, I mean, we could have a whole conference on just that question. What I think is happening is that, as I said before, we're not willing to really dig in and do the work, and we're focusing on performative, we're focusing on, oh, we're wearing a T-shirt, oh, this is Black History Month, oh, this is Chinese American Month, this is, you know, all those things.
And so, we've got to go beyond those festivals and we've got to look at the data. And so, if you've been trying to do DEI work for five years, but your numbers aren't changing, that means there's something wrong. And so, the definition of insanity is doing something over and over and again and expecting different results. There's a lot of talk and no action. And I think honestly, there's a lot of fear.
There's a lot of fear of change and the people that are in positions of power and authority oftentimes don't want to see that change. And part of what needs to happen is we need to call those individuals out, not in a negative way, not in an antagonistic way, but just to say if we want things to be better, if we want our profession to continue to thrive, then this is what we have to do. And so, I think having those hard conversations is part of what needs to happen. I think HR needs to help people get to yes. I think sometimes we look at resumes and we're so narrow with what we're looking for that we miss a lot of people. I think it's important to focus on the job. Look at the job description. Is it really talking about the job or is it talking about feel good what we'd like to see. I think there's so much we can do with that and to unpack it. And I would also say that oftentimes HR, unfortunately, they're not willing to listen. They're not open to listen. And directors can only do what their boards allow them to do. And we know that there are a lot of boards around the country that actually don't know anything about librarianship.
So, you have people that are controlling these organizations, but they don't know anything about librarianship, they don't go to conferences, they're not even reading ALA magazine or SLJ or anything else. So, I think we have a lot of issues and a lot of layers that we have to contend with, but I think we have to continue to speak out. I think ALA has to speak out. PLA has to speak out. BCALA has always spoken out and will continue to do so, but we need to be locked step and have locked arms together to do this work. We can't do it by ourselves.
Ericka
Yeah, it's sometimes daunting to think of how much needs to really be done for us to get to a point where we can move forward together. Thank you for sharing that, Nichelle.
Bryan
Nichelle, what are some lesser known actionable steps that library directors or HR managers could implement that you think might advance EDI within their libraries?
Nichelle
I think that we have a lot of best practices out there in toolkits, and I think we need to apply them. There's the GARE toolkit that's out there, the Government for Racial Equity. I forgot the middle acronym there. I think we have some things out there, but we're not necessarily applying them. And I think we have to apply them consistently. You can't do it for one year or even two years.
These are things that have been happening over hundreds of years, and it's not going to be dismantled overnight. So, I think we have to give it time to work, and we need to do it across the board. So again, I would encourage ALA, PLA, the NALCO to start speaking up and saying, hey, these are some toolkits. We need to apply these across the board and see if we can get to some improvements. So, I think we have the tools out there. It's a matter of using them. And I don't think enough of our organizations are using them.
Ericka
Absolutely. They're not using them and they're not taking the efforts and steps to even learn about them or see what is available. So, is the GER, the Government Alliance on Race and Equity, is that Toolkit?
Nichelle
That's it, thank you so much for helping me with the acronym. Yeah.
Ericka
Yeah, for sure. OK, well, it's a well-known fact that academic libraries struggle to recruit and retain librarians and staff of color. And part of the issue is the lack or inadequacy of any existing support systems. HR might think of housing and schools, but overlook culture, food, and religion. Nichelle, what obligation does the organization have to provide a support system?
Nichelle
I think that's a great question. What I would say is you want to provide a support system for everyone, not just Black and brown folks. And so, if you have that support system, that's gonna help everyone. But I think also we have to go beyond support. When you're centering whiteness, it is very hard to really excel in those institutions. And so I think again, we've got to go back to what are the nuts and bolts of the positions, of the jobs? What do we actually need? Or what is something we've just been talking about for a long time and we've always done? Is that what we need? Or do we need to move into another direction?
I think we also have to look or stop looking at historically under-sourced and under supported or groups as being deficient and just saying that they are different, like we're all different and we have to address those differences. So, diversity, there is a benefit in diversity because what Bryan knows, I don't, what you know, I don't, and then all of us working together, we're really better than each of us standing individually. But until we can really get people to understand that, that's not going to happen.
Academia is a special kind of organism, we'll say, and it just can be a very hard nut to crack. I think mentorship helps, but also the atmosphere is important. Pardon me, so you can't have this negative atmosphere and expect everything is going to be okay, and expect people to stay. And so, there's a difference between recruitment and retention. And I think that's something we don't often talk about.
Bryan
Nichelle, I know you hail from the Midwest and my first library job was in St. Cloud, Minnesota. When I worked there, we often used the term Minnesota nice as a colloquial slogan. And I think that we use the same term Oregon nice in a similar fashion to quote sociologist Dr. Lisa Nunn. It's the type of niceness that masks and seeks to quote gloss over ugly, awful stuff that makes us uncomfortable and leads us to obscure racial injustice, which usually privileges the dominant culture. And am I right to suspect that this sort of thinking exists in our library organizations as well?
Nichelle
I think it absolutely does. I think that we're avoiding the elephant in the room. Even when we come together at conferences, for a couple years there, after every conference, there was a blow up. Something happened at this meeting or that meeting where someone was inappropriate, and then you had to call them to task, and you had to go back through all this other stuff, and you're saying, why do we have to keep on doing the same thing over and over and over again?
And I think the reason is we're not dealing with our issues and challenges. So, BCALA is doing it, Apollo's doing it, AILA's doing it, but the greater organization, they're just like, oh yeah, well, maybe. That's kind of their issue, it's not our issue, but really it's all of our issues. And we're only as strong as our weakest link. And so, if we don't...kind of deal with these things head on, I think we go back to having those uncomfortable conversations. And then after the conversation, you need to have an action plan. You don't just talk and do kumbaya and then have tea or coffee. You've gotta say, okay, what am I gonna do in the next six months? Okay, when we come back to this conference, let's pick this back up and see what kind of...progress we've made. So, I think we call ourselves being polite and nice and smiling, but these problems are continuing to fester. And I think that's why we're not having the movement that we need to as far as hiring, you know, Black librarians across the board.
Ericka
Yeah, you're so right. I feel like if those...issues that pop up or come up and we know that some of these groups are working on them, if they affect all of us then they are absolutely all of our issues. And I think that something that feeds into that is that trust in psychological safety and trying to get to those points. So we know how important trust and psychological safety is to creating spaces of belonging, inclusion and growth. What advice do you have for librarians of color who are looking for opportunities to grow and lead, but don't feel there is a real sense of safety or trust for them in their workplaces.
Nichelle
This is something I've really lived. So, it's a very interesting question. I would encourage everyone to center self-preservation and to focus on their wellness before something happens. You have to have balance. You are more than your job. At the end of the day, you're not gonna work there forever. At some point, you're going to leave.
And do you have family? Do you have friends? Do you have people that care for you? Do you do something in your community? Because as soon as you leave, they will refill that position in about 5.2 seconds. And so, you know, you can work seven days a week if you want to in 12 and 14 hour days, but that job is not gonna love you back. And so, I think you have to really listen to yourself. You have to have balance.
Because what we find in librarianship, you know, people aren't taking breaks. They're not taking their vacation or their PTO. They're not even eating their lunch in the way that they need to because they're like, I've got to do this and I've got to do that. And that mission creep is real. Oh, this is our mission and we've got to do this. But you can't draw from an empty pitcher. And so if you're going to pour into someone else, you have to have something in that.
So, you have to bring people along that can support you, create support, and then speak honestly. And also, if you see something, you have to say something. If something's going on with Bryan and he needs support, I need to step up and help Bryan. And not just at the meeting after the meeting. I need to say something in the meeting when something's going on. Same thing for you and everybody else. So, we can't just talk about things after the fact.
We have to talk about them in the moment, but that takes a certain amount of courage. And I think we need to just say that, just very honestly and openly. But I would tell everyone that they have to center their self-preservation. No job is worth you sacrificing yourself for. It's just not.
Bryan
Nichelle, we're about at the end of our conversation and we'd be remiss if we wrap things up without acknowledging your amazing efforts with the Black Caucus of the American Library Association. So, first off, congratulations on your role as BCALA president and thank you for all your contributions and advocacy in this position.
In what ways do you think library staff of color who are facing discriminatory or oppressive work environments can get support from participating in NALCOs like BCALA?
Nichelle
Well, there's definitely strength in numbers. An organization like BCALA is amazing as far as mentorship, and I believe iron sharpens iron. So, we have so many people that are so talented doing so many amazing things. The professional development is incredible. We have a wonderful professional development subcommittee. They put out a frequent newsletter, as well as having webinars. And then we have our national conference for African American librarians coming up July 24th through the 27th, 2024 in New Orleans, Louisiana.
Everyone is a welcome. All allies are welcome to present as well as attend. There are a lot of incredible leadership opportunities. And I would also like to say, we need to join these organizations before there's a problem. Don't wait until something happens and then you're calling, you're saying, oh yeah, I've been meaning to join, but I didn't quite get around to it. There really is strength in numbers and being able to be proactive instead of reactive. I would be remiss if I didn't mention all the amazing people on our board who are doing great work.
Past President Richard E. Ashby saw something in me. He asked me to join the board and then he asked me if I'd be interested in being Vice President which led me to where I am right now as well as Shauntee Burns-Simpson, who is our immediate past president, who I've learned so much from. She's my BFF. I'm auntie to the two boys she has. And so, we've just learned so much professionally and personally, just being there to support each other. So, in a lot of ways, BCALA is a family as well as an organization. And when you're looking for people to support you in good times and in bad, BCALA caucus members are going to be there. And I'm just really privileged to be a member of this organization that's over 50 years old. We're 53 this year and our future is so bright, we've got to wear shades.
Bryan
Thank you, Nichelle.
Ericka
Yes, thank you. And thank you for being willing to join us today on Overdue and just so much gratitude and so much, I don't know.
Just I'm overwhelmed with things. For all of your unwavering support for not only BIPOC library staff, but for the library profession as a whole. Like we are so much richer and so much brighter with you in it and having your knowledge and passion and experience just, it makes us all shine. So, thank you, Nichelle. And thank you, Bryan, for being willing to join me on this episode.
Nichelle
Thank you so much.
Ericka
And yeah, any last shout outs or any last, you'd like to share with our listeners in a show?
Nichelle
I just want to thank Bryan and Ericka for inviting me. There have been some amazing people who have done this podcast. I would encourage people to check out the earlier episodes. I really do think that we're stronger together and we can't do it all by ourselves, but there is something that we can do. There's something that we can do individually to move the needle. So what is that? Maybe it's attending a conference, maybe it's paying for someone else to go to a conference.
Maybe it's encouraging a coworker. Maybe it's speaking up when you didn't think that you would be able to speak up before or to rally a group of people. So, I feel like we are the person that we're looking for to be the change that we're wanting to see in the world. So, I feel excited about what we are gonna be doing in the future. And I think with amazing people like you, we can really make a lot of things happen.
Ericka
Well, I just want to say thank you again, Bryan, for being willing to co-host this interview with Nichelle. That was absolutely amazing. I feel like there were some great actionable items and tangible things that organizations can do, that HR departments can do, and that we as individuals can do to really start addressing some of these problems and finding good paths forward. I just, so much of that really resonated with me, thinking about just those affinity and confirmation biases that exist in our workplaces, looking beyond support systems.
Like, where do we go once we say we've got a support system in place? What do we look at to see if it truly is supporting everyone in the organization? Just the idea of our issues really being everyone's issues. Like everything is affecting us all so it is the responsibility of all of us to hold ourselves accountable to addressing those. Was there anything that really stood out to you?
Bryan
Well, Nichelle gave such good advice for...people who work in HR or for library directors who want to increase EDI at their own workplace. But I also know that so many librarians and staff are distrustful of HR as well, as they think that HR might be the institution that helps keep the status quo. And so...I guess my reflection would be more of a question and that is that who is above HR or who is above management to ensure that some of these suggestions that Nichelle made take place. And that might be the subject for a future podcast.
Ericka
Absolutely, and that's a topic I think we could all benefit from, like really looking at the hierarchical structures of our organizations and really putting the emphasis and accountability on those who are in places that they can incite that change that is so desperately needed. So, I'm gonna put a call to action out there for our listeners and that is around something specifically we've noticed here in the state of Oregon that there's a lack of affinity spaces or affinity groups.
It's so important that we are keeping in touch with one another, that we're finding ways to support one another, that we're sharing information. There are lots of things that are happening in our state and across the nation that are affecting people of color, that are affecting maybe even staff at your own library system or in a neighboring town. And we really need to be in a place where we can talk about that. And we can talk about how we can help folks that are under fire in those situations.
Bryan
And I think I would echo that call to action and maybe see if there's a group like the State Library that can help bring people together. I know that if there was an Oregon BCALA chapter it would be mighty small or an Oregon APALA chapter it would be extremely small. And it might behoove then an organization like the State Library to try to bring librarians and library staff of color together here in this state.
Ericka
Yes, kind of like REFORMA. There is a REFORMA Oregon, but you know, they need support too. And we need to start finding ways that for those of us who are working in these libraries and working in this profession as folks of color that we are really finding what we need to support ourselves. And we're seeing that it's not going to be done for us. So, what can we do together?
Bryan
Absolutely.
Ericka
Thank you so much, Bryan, and I look forward to the next one.
Bryan
Thank you, Ericka.
[Voiceover]
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon.
Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.
[Voiceover]
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade enforced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.
[Outro Music Playing]
[Intro Music Playing]