In this episode, Dr. Raymond (Ray) Pun (academic and research librarian at the Alder Graduate School of Education) shares insights on effective library advocacy through collaboration and community building, advice for aspiring librarians of color, and the value of involvement in the American Library Association and committee work.
We hear about Ray's career transition from public to academic libraries, delve into the intersection of social justice and intellectual freedom (Ray introduces us to ALA's Book Resumes for banned books!), and touch on AI in education.
Don't miss Ray's vision for ALA as a 2025-2026 presidential candidate.
The 2024 ALA Election Period runs from March 11, 2024 through April 3, 2024.
Only current ALA members may participate in the 2024 ALA Election.
Click here to join or renew ALA today!
Hosts: LaRee Dominguez & Brittany Young
Date of Interview: February 20, 2024
In this episode, Dr. Raymond (Ray) Pun (academic and research librarian at the Alder Graduate School of Education) shares insights on effective library advocacy through collaboration and community building, advice for aspiring librarians of color, and the value of involvement in the American Library Association and committee work.
We hear about Ray's career transition from public to academic libraries, delve into the intersection of social justice and intellectual freedom (Ray introduces us to ALA's Book Resumes for banned books!), and touch on AI in education.
Don't miss Ray's vision for ALA as a 2025-2026 presidential candidate.
The 2024 ALA Election Period runs from March 11, 2024 through April 3, 2024.
Only current ALA members may participate in the 2024 ALA Election.
Click here to join or renew ALA today!
Hosts: LaRee Dominguez & Brittany Young
Date of Interview: February 20, 2024
[Intro Music Playing]
LaRee Dominguez
Welcome to Overdue: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. My name is LaRee Dominguez. My pronouns are she/her. I am the resources coordinator at the Albany Public Library, and I am joined by my co-host, Brittany Young.
Brittany Young
Hi, I'm Brittany Young and my pronouns are she/her. I am the Lane County Law Librarian in Eugene, Oregon. Today our guest is Raymond, or Ray Pun, pronouns he/him. Ray is the academic and research librarian at the Alder Graduate School of Education, a teacher residency program in California where he supports library services by engaging with residents and teacher educators. With over 17 years of experience in the library field, Ray has previously worked at Stanford University, Fresno State, New York University Shanghai, and the New York Public Library in various roles. Ray holds a Doctorate in Education from Fresno State, a Master of Library Science from the City University of New York-Queens College, a Master of Arts in East Asian Studies, and a Bachelor of Arts in History from St. John's University. Pun has previously served as President of the Asian Pacific American Librarians Association and the Chinese American Librarians Association, and on the American Library Association Council as a Counselor At-Large. Pun is also currently a candidate for the American Library Association President 2025/2026. Thank you for joining us today, Ray.
Raymond Pun
Thank you so much, Brittany, LaRee and Ericka. Really, I am honored to be invited to speak at this podcast episode. I'm a huge fan of Overdue. I've seen so many of the previous episodes and heard, and so many wonderful people you brought in, so thank you.
LaRee Dominguez
Thank you. We've got an icebreaker that we try to do with everyone. So, here's your icebreaker, Ray. If you had a go-to karaoke song, what would it be and why?
Raymond Pun
That's a really fun question because I went to a lot of karaoke places in Queens, New York where I'm originally from, with my friends in high school, and we would go on the weekend, not like skipping class or anything like that, that's what people were thinking. But it was really fun because then we were coming together singing Mandarin, Cantonese pop songs, Korean pop songs and English pop songs. I want to say the one that stood out to me is something from Bon Jovi. I know it's a little cheesy to say, so I guess something like “It's My Life” or “Livin' on a Prayer” or something like that. But when I hear you ask that question, it made me think of my roots going to karaoke as a high school student.
LaRee Dominguez
How fun. Now I'm going to think of Bon Jovi songs.
Brittany Young
I see that you are currently working on a co-edited book with Sonya M. Durney and Tarida Anantachai, titled Academic Library Workers Doing Legislative Advocacy and Public Policy Work. Will you share with us what you think are the top two or three most effective steps to take in library advocacy work? I didn't want to say one because how can you choose one?
Raymond Pun
Right, exactly. I'm so glad you asked that question because it's something that I've been involved within the different library groups I've been part of and how we think about advocacy work. One of the things we noticed, and this is how I came about talking to Sonya and Tarida, is that we noticed academic library workers were not as fully engaged as we would see public or school library workers, our colleagues in terms of addressing issues maybe that are pertinent to their needs in terms of funding. But academic libraries, they tend to be situated in different areas, and we do see a lot of public policy issues that do affect academic libraries and higher education in general. We're talking about issues like new bills supporting ethnic studies curriculum as well as open access, open scholarship, broadband, digital equity, intellectual freedom. So many of these issues are coming in.
I think a lot of times academic library workers may be just not sure where to engage or advocate for specific issues with their communities. That's where I had conversation with Sonya and Tarida and we thought, well, let's have a conversation. Let's bring in voices and case studies of what academic library workers are doing to look at legislative advocacy issues, public policy works that are happening in our spaces. This is something where we are in the middle of right now. Just for a teaser here, for the top two or three. I will say it's really about that collaboration, those relationships that we build with our faculty, with our students, with our administrators, because when we're thinking about issues like surveillance and eBook issues, for example, that we're seeing coming up and with our vendors that we have to work with, what does that say about our core values and our stances on these issues and how we ensure we protect our users?
We see different case studies coming up where people are collaborating even with their state library associations or with their public library colleagues on issues like intellectual freedom because it's affecting all of us. When it's affecting one group of libraries or one group of library users, it's definitely an attack on all of us where we need to come together and really think how we can organize ourselves to address these issues, raising awareness and empowering people to take lead, whether that's a letter writing campaign or sharing social media information about it to get people thinking about these issues because it matters to us. We have to work with each other. So, I think the real focus is really thinking about how we approach these issues that are coming up in academic libraries, many of them including accessibility, copyright and so forth, and then draw inspiration and take those conversations into your communities. So, hopefully when it comes out, I think later this year or early next year, it might get people to start thinking about advocacy work in their academic libraries.
Brittany Young
That was super interesting and wonderful to hear, and it made me just think about, I feel like I'm hearing a lot more from academic libraries about AI and special libraries too. I feel like special libraries and academic libraries that you might not have seen so much in advocacy efforts, AI is bringing us together.
Raymond Pun
Yeah, AI is definitely a huge issue we're seeing right now. And even at the federal level, it's still unclear. Yet at the state level, we're seeing some other things happening. Like in California where I am, there is a new media literacy law that's coming in into education, but then there's also, for example, consumer privacy protection laws coming in as well. And then you have AI that are really commercialized tools that collect data and how do we make sense and reconcile with legislative issues and then interest for teaching, learning and accessibility, but also being mindful of the ethical considerations that these tools present.
Brittany Young
Thank you
LaRee Dominguez
That stuff is so interesting and I appreciate everything that you're covering in the book and that you're gathering the voices, that's important. Knowing all that you know now, what advice would you give to a person of color who was thinking about becoming a librarian?
Raymond Pun
I appreciate this question because this is something I wish I had done earlier, which was being active in the National Associations of Librarians of Color, which some folks might call or recall them as ethnic caucus or ethnic affiliates, but really, it's the National Associations of Librarians of Color. We're talking about the Asian Pacific American Librarian Association, the American Indian Library Association, REFORMA, the National Association to Promote Library Services to Latinos and Spanish Speaking, as well as the Black Caucus of ALA and the Chinese American Librarians Association, these five groups. I think if there are folks who feel they identify or at least an ally or an advocate with these interests, certainly be involved because there are scholarships, there are mentoring programmings, there are ways to engage virtually and in person with these different groups, and that you can really make deep connections with someone who has different experiences or expertise in areas that you might not realize and they share some affinity with the work you're doing or your own background.
That can help a long way because I think at times, many of us who identify as a person of color, we might encounter some barriers or challenges, and we think it's uniquely our own situation and that we're alone in this, but actually many people have experienced similar ones and can give you some advice or perspective. And certainly, there's We Here community, which is a really great group for BIPOC library workers and archival workers interested in being part of supporting one another. I think it's important to know that you're not alone when you're going through this. I certainly, in the beginning of my career, felt I was alone and felt like... I almost quit a few times…the field, because I just felt like there was something inherently, maybe a deficit mind that I had about myself. I don't belong in this field because I'm having a lot of difficulty for some reason, but then I realize it's a pattern which is a separate issue, but needs to be addressed, but the experiences are affirmed.
So, I think it's important where you can share resources, collaborate with others outside of your institutions, and these are the groups where you can start off by being a member and just sort of engaging in different ways where you don't have to commit, but in a way that you can even lurk and then start making connections.
LaRee Dominguez
That is really helpful, and it's been helpful for me. I'm in AILA, the American Indian Library Association and a couple of other tribal associations that... It really does help to see those emails and know that there's help out there if you need it, there's someone going through something similar, and you didn't realize it until you touch base with somebody and they're very helpful. Thank you.
Brittany Young
And speaking of committees and caucuses and joining those, you've been involved with ALA and many committees for quite a while. How do you convey the value to new library professionals to join ALA and to be active with committee work other than what you already said?
Raymond Pun
It's a question I started out thinking when I was in library school. I was also working as a library technical assistant, a library assistant, full-time, doing both going to school and working. It didn't make sense to me at the time. This is like 17 years ago, let's just say, where it was like, okay, so I want to join ALA so I can do more volunteer work. So, it sounded like counterintuitive where you're just like, why would I pay for membership and then end up doing more work? But actually, that kind of thinking is common. But I started realizing as I reframe my thinking, as I started seeing things differently in terms of the work I was doing more and more and the connections I was trying to establish in terms of just knowing what people were doing, whether they're in Los Angeles Public Library or in Texas or in Wisconsin, and that there was something for me to learn to take back and to consider.
I think to your question right now, as I look back and think about this today, I think we see public health crisis in loneliness. We see this as an epidemic where people are experiencing loneliness, isolation, and a lot of us do this work independently. I see an opportunity where people are part of these committees, part of these groups where they can build professional relationships, connections and friendships, and then they become long-lasting. I've seen so many people tell me they go to the conferences, or they get involved in committees because of their friends, X, Y, Z people that they work so well with and people who get and understood what they're going through or have been through. I see these relationships being established and see an opportunity where people can share that and encourage others to think about that our work is relationship building work, that one person can't do things alone, but that within ALA, which is a community where you can grow professionally and personally. It's one where you can really develop those relationships throughout your life, whether that's developing skills, focusing on advocacy work or fundraising or marketing.
There are all these different areas that I see people can expand in. So, I didn't really do much fundraising in my previous positions, but then being involved in these associations and then really working through, I see opportunities where I feel really comfortable and confident to say, look, I worked in this fundraising committee within this library group and we've helped fundraise 200, $300,000. I know exactly what to do and I bring it back to my workplace to share these ideas. So, it really works in an iterative process where we have to think about what skills you want to learn, what are the gaps, what are the potentials where you can expand those opportunities, and how would those committee work get you to where you want to be, if we're thinking about something practical. And if we're thinking about something relational, are you thinking of expanding your network so that you have more colleagues to rely on, a board of advisors if you will?
Maybe you're interested in moving from one type of a library to another and you want to make connections with other folks to hear their experiences. I see all those opportunities where people can really make good use of such a community who will support you and who will be there for you. Knowing that I have worked in about four or five different jobs throughout my career, the only thing that's been constant has been ALA and all these association groups. It's been able to carry me from one position to the next and helping me think about the network I have. We also need to be mindful of capacity and cost. I know it's that free labor experience, but I think if we think about what we have done and what we have to do, it helps us realize that we're working together to build a better society, better association, to better serve our communities. It's about 150 years of work almost within ALA, and we need to continue mobilizing and doing that kind of work to support our communities.
Brittany Young
I feel like every state organization needs to hear what you just said because that was also a perfect way to explain to directors or administrators that aren't sure, should we let our library staff do this on library work time? I feel like if they heard what you just said, they would be like, "Well, yeah, because obviously the return on investment is way more than what the cost is to have them join." So, I think that that was great, and I always love the relationship building part.
LaRee Dominguez
Yeah, I do too. It's so important to highlight those and you did a great job. I hope a lot of people pay attention to that when they're listening to this podcast. The next question is an extension to the last question. You also seem to be very connected with many of the National Associations of Librarians of Color. Can you tell us about the role of those associations in the professional development and the value that involvement offers library workers at all levels and stages of their career? I know you answered this a little bit, but we want a little more.
Raymond Pun
Yeah, thank you, LaRee, for that. For the most part, it really comes down to the intersections of one's core value in terms of what you like to see in the profession. It's never going to be perfect. It's never going to be that profession that everyone feels a sense of belonging, but what we can do is strive to get there so that others can continue working through this together because one person can't make that happen, obviously. So, I think from my own experiences thinking about the NALCos and professional development, I see opportunities where all of us can be an ally, an advocate, even if we don't identify as such. But we're really trying to strive to engage, diversify, recruit and retain underrepresented groups in the field, especially BIPOC folks. And then also acknowledge the intersectionality. And I think that's the one thing a lot of people might not realize that there are multiple marginalized identities in the profession.
You can be Black, queer, trans, disabled. You can have all these different experiences and then realize that we need to understand that there are some identities that need to be uplifted and affirmed because of the marginalization that might occur even within the groups themselves. So, we work with good intentions to ensure that there is always space, always opportunities to uplift and recognize that there are intersectional identities. So, I see the NALCos offering a lot of relationship building support, whether that's community affirming, whether that's something you're thinking about... Right now, it's February, it's Black History Month, whether we're thinking about programming for Black history programming, which should be done all year round, but let's say you're not sure where to begin. Lots of BCLA members are sharing tips, ways to engage, what they're doing and really sharing good ideas and good practice. It's the same for any other... Heritage Month let's say, right.
I see that we move beyond that as well, but also making those connections deliberately. So, I think if I wanted to get more involved with ALA and thinking about how folks are perceiving that we can think about the leadership that we have developed within these groups. I would say that I think in the beginning of my career, it was a little bit challenging to get involved in ALA. These groups were able to offer me opportunities to lead to be part of these committees and chairs and being really engaged at a smaller scale, but still it created experiences and opportunities for me to grow and for me to keep building on that. Right now, it also supports my work as a teacher educator librarian where I'm passionate in uplifting voices in our learning materials and our books, multimedia, especially those who've been historically minoritized or underrepresented.
I've been finding a lot of amazing book award titles, honor lists, reading lists, and then sharing that back out. So, it really helps affirm the work I'm trying to do at my institution, which is serving teachers. There's some other great opportunities that I've been able to engage because of the work I've been doing at ALA and within these NALCos. I wanted to share one example where the professional development of the NALCos can really expand opportunities to engage in other levels that people might not realize. You mentioned earlier, the American Indian Library Association. I've been involved about five plus years, love a lot of the folks there. Many of the folks are doing such great work. And I remember getting asked maybe from a different channel, it was from the U.S. Department of Commerce, the National Technology Administration, they wanted me to be considered as a merit reviewer for giving out a broadband funding to tribal lands affected by a lack of infrastructure for broadband.
So, I looked into it. I said, "Yeah, I'd like to be part of this because as an advocate ally, I feel this is important also to close the digital divide." So, we ended up working, I think this was two years ago, trying to give out $1.3 billion. Now, can you imagine that size… $1.3 billion… to so many communities that are affected by a lack of broadband. We were able to do that effectively, and so I was really thankful to be part of that. And I think it goes in part of my relationship building work with AILA and with so many other groups that make me see the possibilities of being engaged and being active and supporting these communities too.
LaRee Dominguez
Thank you for expanding on that. It's so important to let people know, especially People of Color, that there is support there. Again, you have sort of uplifted that and pointed out that marginalized communities really do need some uplifting. Thank you.
Brittany Young
Many librarians move around to different types of libraries in their careers. You yourself have worked at public and academic libraries. How does your experience at the New York Public Library transfer to your experience in academia?
Raymond Pun
It's a fun question because it's one where I had always questioned how did people make that move? And I had been a finalist, this was during 2010, 2011. It was really difficult economic times, and I couldn't get past the first or second round interviews. It's a funny story because I ended up having to leave the country to actually become an academic librarian, which was through NYU in Shanghai, which is the only institution that brought me in through New York University because a lot of collaboration with NYPL at NYU because of the ACRL New York City chapter that I was part of and making connections there. That really helped me understood the work that was expected for this position in building two libraries in Shanghai, China. What I realized was there's a lot of these silos that happen in our profession, so I ended up collaborating with Davis Erin Anderson, who was formerly at Metro and now is at a different organization focusing on Freedom of the Press and journalism work.
She and I, we noticed that there were opportunities to come together to tell stories of how people made these transitions. We ended up actually co-editing a book in 2016 called Career Transitions, strategies for Librarians to move from one type of library to another because we saw a gap in the literature, just like I saw a gap in the legislative advocacy work and wanted to bring in voices to really demystify how do people move from a special to an academic or a public to an academic or a school to an academic, just different areas. I think it helped us understand a few things; that there are inherently stereotypes and biases. I served on search committees later in an academic library and I saw public library folks applying and then I could hear the biases from the search committee members, “oh, this person is a public librarian. They will never understand academic scholarship and rigor.”
In my mind, I'm thinking, well, when is the last time you've published? When is the last time you actually worked on something when you're critiquing someone else? These kinds of things unfortunately still happen. And I think it's important to recognize that all skills matter, all skills are transferable in whatever library type of work you're doing and your level as a library worker. We need to break those silos. What happened for me was I found the traditional path. I found academic library mentors who were in APALA, who gave me feedback on my resume, which they told me it's actually a curriculum vitae or a CV, and then broke it down for me on what to look for. So, if you're thinking about publishing or presenting, think about some low stake areas, maybe a newsletter, maybe a blog for ACRL or some other groups that's for academic libraries. Talk about that experience or maybe share some sort of research or some sort of project you're working on in conferences because that is appealing.
Certainly, it's not the only things to do, but it's a part of ways of showing that you're committed. Those were what I started taking back. And for me, I'm generally an outreach person. I like to go outside of the library to make connections to collaborate with others. So, I think there's something there that academic libraries are doing more, but that's something that public libraries do really well. That was something I was able to do, to do a lot of programming, a lot of big program events where it brought people in and then I was able to bring that over to those positions going forward because it's engagement, it's student retention, it's community building, and that's what we need to do more of in academic libraries.
I will say that for each of the different library types, there are definitely pros and cons depending on your perspective and your background and your functional expertise and interests. It's possible, but it's so important to deliberately make those connections. If you want to be a school librarian, make connections with that association in your area, and then you might find a mentor or someone to shadow. Or if you're interested in special libraries, maybe that's specifically health sciences and hospital, there is definitely an association in that region or within the national region, a national association, to make those connections because you really need to make an effort to know more about what people are doing. And there are so many webinars and tools out there that you can really learn, but if you speak to someone, then you can really hear what they're doing, what their day-to-day life is like. And that may or may not help you, but it gives you some perspective there.
Brittany Young
Thank you, Ray. That answer, there's just so many things that I could have an entire podcast conversation about with just that answer. I love all of the connection pieces and now we all have a book recommendation for mentoring somebody or we ourselves want to transition into different library types, but making those connections and breaking down those silos, that's something that I think is very important in all types of libraries. That was a personal question I loved because when I did my portfolio for grad school, that was one of the things that I talked about too, is the transferring of skills and how sometimes, like you said with outreach, public libraries might've been doing it better, so then you could bring that to academic and make them do it better too. That's wonderful. Thank you.
Raymond Pun
Yeah, exactly. It's really an opportunity to highlight the gaps in the position you see and what you can do currently as a strength.
LaRee Dominguez
Yeah, it's very nice to hear those, especially for some of us who have done the same thing, swapped special libraries for public or academia for special. It's very helpful. You're currently serving on the ALA Intellectual Freedom Committee. Why is social justice important to intellectual freedom work, and do you have suggestions for supporting library workers that are battling social justice issues in intellectual freedom work?
Raymond Pun
It's a really thoughtful question and certainly one that is requiring not just one person, it's all about the collective, all about solidarity working together to really define the challenges and develop the solutions together. When we think about social justice, we know it's important to highlight those that are underserved, underrepresented voices in our books, learning materials, resources as well as services and programming. So, we're seeing right now a lot of unfortunate situations. I feel for so many of our colleagues facing these issues in so many different ways, from feeling really vulnerable to having to think about the burnout experience and workplace safety and even having to leave the library field as a result. We're seeing a lot of these rising censorship issues. As you mentioned earlier, I'm part of the ALA Intellectual Freedom Committee as the International Relations Round Table Liaison.
ALA has these round tables and I'm one of the round table liaisons for the international group to give perspective and to be part of this important committee. I recognize that it's important that our core values really guide us. There's equity, intellectual freedom, and we really need to think about what ALA is doing. For example, there is a Unite Against Book Banning campaign that's happening. They just dropped out this new amazing Book Resumes database, which is a strategy I use to talk to teachers that I serve across the state of California where they can get strategies on how do they improve or a way to highlight a book that might be challenged or have been challenged elsewhere. But giving it a resume, like a list of accolades, a list of recognitions, because books are windows to different experiences to help us develop empathy.
They affirm identities and they're a mirror too, in that sense. It's a lot of different importance of how we showcase and how we recognize underserved, underrepresented experiences and stories that need to be told. With that, this new Book Resume database is definitely one that can help folks think about these strategies. There's a lot of toolkits, action work, but I certainly think it's important for us to come together as a community to advocate alongside with our authors, illustrators, publishers, and our readers getting the message out there that social justice requires us to center on the issues of injustice happening and to address it as a collective. For example, in the past I realized that some of the authors who are Asian Americans have been censored too. Kelly Yang, a YA author, known for many amazing books that she's written, and Front Desk is one of them, and it was censored.
And so, I was really curious why, and then I started reading it and then I got a chance to connect with Kelly Yang. We brought her in at an event. We interviewed her as well to highlight her ways of challenging book bans. And then she brings out that message to amplify these issues based on her perspective. So, I think it's important that we come together in coalitions. When I was president of APALA and CALA, we joined United Against Book Ban campaign to uplift these issues and to raise awareness because to a certain extent, we do recognize that these censorship issues are affecting BIPOC and LGBTQ authors and illustrators. We also need to recognize that it's disproportionately affecting BIPOC folks who do identify as LGBTQ authors, those intersectional identities. And what it means to be a librarian who identify as such or trying to engage with community members who identify as such.
And then how do we do it in a way where people feel safe to engage? Because I think there's a lot of fear and apprehension that I see. Luckily, there's many of us within ALA doing this work where we're highlighting tools and resources to get people thinking about, for instance, a letter writing campaign, media training potentially, or resource sharing or social media sharing and really getting people to talk about these issues. So, I'm hopeful in that sense that more and more of us are coming together from different industries, recognizing these issues because really, it's a social justice issue with intellectual freedom. It really affects all of us in the long run.
LaRee Dominguez
That's so helpful. And raising the awareness and the disproportionate amount of BIPOC members that are also LGBTQ plus, it's really important to bring those out. And this book resume database sounds really, really helpful for folks that are a little bit stuck. Thank you so much.
Brittany Young
Yes, thank you. I'm excited to explore the Book Resume database myself, even just being a law librarian, I wasn't always a law librarian. You recently did a talk about generative AI tools in higher education. You actually did one with one of our previous guests, Laurie Bridges. She's a librarian from Oregon State University, one of the people that is why I became a librarian. That was very exciting for me to see. But I had some questions for you with that. What is your favorite thing about AI? Because a lot of times we get negative stuff and I think we should talk about the positives too. And then… this is like a three-parter. What do you think is dangerous about AI and how can we as library workers make AI less racist? It's a good question. It's okay if you don't have all the answers.
Raymond Pun
I was just going to say that. Thank you, Brittany, for those thoughtful questions. And shout out to Laurie who's doing a lot of really great work looking into AI. And she's such a great collaborator. This actually comes up several times where I just wanted to say I'm not an AI expert or technologist in that sense, but I am a lifelong learner like all of us here, and we're thinking about these tools that are impacting knowledge making, knowledge work, and how it affects the work we're doing in libraries. So, about a year ago this time, this week, I still remember because I was going through weather issues, there's a lot of climate change even in California in the Bay Area, which I didn't have power I think for a few days. And it was really stressful because like, how can this happen in 2023? But it happened.
I was preparing for this talk for a lifelong information literacy group called LILi, and I remember asking them, "Hey, I want to do a show and tell talk about generative AI issues." And then they said, "Yeah, sure." And I remember April Sheppard, who was the Chair at the time, and I think still the Chair said, "Yeah, let's do something." It was free, open to everybody. I think it was one of the early ones that folks hadn't seen yet because AI tools like ChatGPT came out around November and DALL-E, which is the image generator tool from OpenAI, also the company that designed ChatGPT came out a little bit earlier than that. I said, "Yeah, let's do something." And then hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people signed up. I just wanted to explain the ethical issues and also what I saw with my teacher education program, how I engaged with this tool with graduate students who were becoming teachers and teacher educators.
It got people really excited. And then I ended up writing a few more things and even being invited, in September, to go to Lewis and Clark College to give the Johannah Sherrer Memorial Lecture, which was great to get to connect with folks there in the Pacific Northwest. I ended up just thinking more about this issue, creating with a task force in my institution on generative AI usage. We can get into that, but I guess it's all really fascinating because I like a few things that are happening I see, which is the actual function of what you need to do. For example, I had to write some letters for here and there, and I needed it translated into Chinese. I used to write Chinese. It's been a long time, but it helped me do it right away. It translated something, it's not perfect, and I looked at it and made some edits. I sent it to another friend who is a real native speaker and then was able to make some changes quickly, as opposed to translating something from scratch.
It's not perfect, but it's a start. And it really helps potentially with that engagement in terms of creating multilingual signage or engagement or messaging. I think there's promise in that area. There's also promise in the accessibility component. I see more and more people, especially some of the folks that I serve, mentioned that it's helpful for them to break down difficult concepts or outlines, help them think through if they have writing anxiety, which is real. I still have writing anxiety and I've done a lot of writings over the years. I don't use the tool for these things, but I've heard people saying that it's been helpful. And also, transcription. It helps create transcriptions. It's not perfect, but it's a starting point. So, I think the points to think about the dangers is real. There is no way to actually ban something.
I think we saw in New York City schools, they banned it and a few months later they had to unban it because these tools are being embedded or large language models, as they call it, where AI tools are using and they are being embedded in Microsoft Suite or in Google products, and it's going to becoming more and more entrenched in our lives in ways that it's hard to separate out. So, we think about the trade-offs. That's what it really comes down to. I think about these tools, I think about how they are not neutral. They're just like libraries, they're not neutral. And we need to continue having these conversations because they're really commercial entities that are entering in our spaces. For technical services folks, we know that outsourcing has always been a pro and con situation.
We're seeing this happening too, supplementing in some of the work we're doing potentially with chatbots, potentially with creating reading lists or messaging and so forth. But then there are issues of copyright. Where is this data getting its information? Scraping it off the web from Reddit to Wikipedia and some proprietary information, and we're seeing lawsuits coming in from the New York Times, for example. But then there are all these other lingering issues, like the obvious ones I think we can all name, like the biases that are inherent in these tools. There's nothing really artificial about artificial intelligence. As Stanford University professor, Dr. Fei-Fei Li mentions in her new book about AI and being a renowned expert. And then thinking about the surveillance issue, the data collecting, the data profiling, that it's creating about each one of us as users; the tiers that are created because some people can afford the premium and some people can't. And then it creates that information privilege. Who has access to information based on one's affiliation?
So, I see all these other issues surrounding, and I'm hearing other ones coming out, labor issues that are materials or content being outsourced to areas where people are being underpaid to make sure content moderation is done, or environmental issues, potentially, with data centers, because these tools may be up in the cloud, but they may require a lot of data servers that might create environmental impact and harm. I see a lot of issues that we have going on and promises, but I also think that what Dr. Fei-Fei Li said is that in our work, in what we're trying to do, all of us trying to diversify, trying to make the field more inclusive, trying to create a sense of belonging, create accessibility. It takes a community. It takes a long time to do this. And hopefully, that will be reflective of the AI systems themselves.
Now, can we make AI less racist? It's almost like can we make libraries less racist? I don't know. It's an ongoing process because of the issues that the internet is a dumpster fire sometimes, and it's collecting part of that and it's spewing it back out. I think there's some of that work that requires deep interrogation. For example, in my class that I taught, I had students who are teachers in the special program to evaluate a prompt without knowing it came from ChatGPT. It was about culturally relevant pedagogy, and it was missing some aspects like who the author was and this and that. And then they were trying to make it better. And then we interrogated AI and then we looked into what it means to have these tools in classrooms, in K12 spaces. And so, it requires us to engage proactively to alert others about the ethical considerations. I think it's an ongoing process, and I hope folks were able to take some ideas I have just shared now in terms of the work they're thinking of when it comes to AI.
Brittany Young
I know I learned a lot just by the answer that you gave. One of my favorite books is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, and your response reminded me of the trade-offs of technology and science. Are we using it for good or are we using it for bad? Let's hope we're using it for good.
Raymond Pun
Right. A lot of folks are talking about AI literacy and being more familiar because at the end, I think, I'm not sure, I've had some discussions with some folks, the AI tools aren't becoming as sophisticated, which I could see. But then we're seeing that being embedded or maybe required for future job positions. Is that something we need to be thinking about? Workforce development. It's interesting but remains to be seen.
LaRee Dominguez
Yes. Thank you. That's lots to think about and thank you for bringing out all of the different good and bad. It would be quite the oversight on our part if we concluded this discussion without asking about your current candidacy for 2025/2026, ALA president. What are your main areas of focus and vision should you be elected into this position?
Raymond Pun
Well, thank you for giving me an opportunity to share a little bit about this. My theme is really libraries build relationships because that's what we do. We build relationships with our communities with each other. We support one another. That's something I've experienced personally as a child of immigrant parents who grew up being emergent bilingual, who spoke Chinese at home and English outside of home. And then I struggled with literacy with English. I was always placed in remedial reading programs. But the library I went to every day in Queens, New York, was there to provide the resources, the space where I actually improved my literacy skills and got out of those programs and ESL, even though I was born in the United States. I ended up becoming a first generation college graduate. This is a testimony that, it's not unique, that many people have different experiences and memories of how the libraries transformed their lives for the better.
I wanted to highlight a few themes that are resonating with what we're experiencing today and what our leaders have been working on. I truly believe the values of compassion and collaboration guiding my work as an ALA president, as a candidate and so forth in the field, serving teachers, teacher educators, grad students, general public, et cetera. So, I feel an opportunity for us to address a lot of intersecting issues we're seeing. We're seeing censorship, AI, job burnout, workplace safety, digital content, price gouging, surveillance. All of these things are affecting us in different ways and at once too.
I see an opportunity for us to come together maybe in a national forum, to have these discussions, how ALA can bring us together to support one another, to develop solutions together in community and in solidarity. I also see the importance of state chapters, our different groups locally and our affiliates to work together through a building those stronger working relationships, whether that's sharing some of the resources that are happening, like the Book resume, that database, or something from the scholarships that are happening coming in such as a spectrum scholarship to really engage and amplify the resources that ALA provides to these so many different groups that are connected to ALA, but have their own different priorities too.
Finally, I see an opportunity to engage with the global library community. I see opportunities to do virtual programming and orientations, and this is based on a lot of the work I've done internationally. But I just wanted to highlight even in let's say the Pacific Northwest, in Oregon, for example, nearly one in 10 Oregon resident is an immigrant, while one in nine resident is a native born US citizen with at least one immigrant parent. There's something there that I think wherever people are coming, migrating, immigrating, there are opportunities to collaborate. Of course, there are indigenous communities throughout the world, and I see opportunities to really highlight indigenous voices through these virtual orientations and programming and in partnership with our affiliates like AILA and REFORMA.
I wanted to end by saying I think there's an opportunity to bring us a little closer, to create a sense of belonging for all of us to know that ALA is not perfect, but at least that there is space for us to grow together and for us to work together to make it better and to ensure that we continue making these deep connections for each other personally and professionally. We have all these stories we have to tell, all these experiences and supporting our communities in so many different ways through the partnerships that we can make, through the values of collaboration and compassion and all the core values within ALA as well. I'm honored to be considered, and regardless of the outcome, I am here to support ALA in the long run.
LaRee Dominguez
Thank you for that answer and thank you for highlighting the immigrants and indigenous people. Part of my family are not native speakers of English. And that is always an interesting thing to discuss or for other family members to learn about because a lot of times, nieces and nephews don't know or the kids coming up go, "Oh, you only spoke Spanish at home? Oh, you never spoke English until you were in school." And it's so interesting. Even for indigenous communities, that is ongoing in languages. Thank you for sharing that and thank you so much for sharing time with us today. It's been wonderful.
Brittany Young
Yes, thank you. This has been a pleasure and it's been a pleasure getting to know you.
Raymond Pun
Yeah, same here. Thank you, Brittany, LaRee and Ericka.
[Voiceover]
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act administered by the State Library of Oregon.
[Voiceover]
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade enforced labor that built this country, and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.
[Outro Music Playing]