S3, E3: An Introduction to Critical Librarianship w/Jamillah Gabriel

*There were slight technical issues during the recording of this episode. We apologize for any minor disruptions*

We are excited to welcome Jamillah R. Gabriel,  the Critical Pedagogy Research Librarian at Harvard University and co-host of the podcast LibVoices, for a second time. Jamillah provides listeners with a beginner-friendly overview of Critical Pedagogy, how it can be applied to library and information science, and used to promote EDIA within libraries and educational settings. 

Jamillah explores why EDIA racism trainings fail (or perhaps more accurately, why EDIA trainings are designed to fail), and how decolonizing bibliographic research can aid in centering marginalized voices and perspectives when it comes to knowledge production and citation. 

For additional readings on the topics discussed, try: 

• The Criticalness of LIS Incorporating Critical Theory, Pedagogy, and Action in LIS Research, Teaching, and Practice by Jamillah R. Gabriel
• Critical Librarianship & Pedagogy: Interview with Jamillah Gabriel by Jamia Williams
• Archiving Blackness: Reimagining and Recreating the Archive(s) as Literary and Information Wake Work by Jamillah R. Gabriel

Hosts:   LaRee Dominguez & Roxanne M. Renteria
Date of Interview: May 10, 2024

Transcript

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[Intro Music Playing]

LaRee Dominguez:       
Welcome to OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. My name is LaRee Dominguez. My pronouns are she/her. I am the resources coordinator at the Albany Public Library and I am joined by my co-host, Roxanne.

Roxanne M. Renteria:
  Hi, my name is Roxanne M. Renteria. My pronouns are she/her and I'm a community librarian at Deschutes Public Library. With us today is Jamillah R. Gabriel, the critical pedagogy research librarian at Harvard University and a PhD student in the School of Information Sciences at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Jamillah holds a master of arts in museum studies from Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis and a master of Library and information Science from San Jose State University. Her professional experience includes 24 years in public and academic libraries as a librarian and library paraprofessional. Her research focuses on issues at the nexus of information and race and interrogates how these issues along with information and cultural heritage, institutions, and policies impact Black people and communities. She is also the founder of Call Number, a book subscription box, and the co-host of the podcast LibVoices.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Welcome, Jamillah. we have an icebreaker question for you. What is your favorite TV show, catchphrase, or quote?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Well, first, thank you for having me. It's great to be here with you all again. I think there are a lot of catchphrases and quotes that I like from TVs and movies and all of that, so this actually is a harder question than it seems. I'm just going to pick one just from out of anywhere and this is actually an old school phrase, but I like to say, "Sometimes, slow your role," which is from the Martin show.

LaRee Dominguez:     
  Yes, I'm glad you said that. It made me think of the Martin show.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes.

LaRee Dominguez:     
 I haven't seen that for a while.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Right. I went way back. I reached back for that one.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Our first question for you is, at the critical pedagogy research librarian at Harvard University, can you provide an overview of what critical pedagogy research means to our listeners and what its role is in LIS?

Jamillah R. Gabriel: 
I would say, for my particular role and I would say honestly actually for other critical pedagogy librarians, there aren't that many of us. It's just a handful, because it's a fairly new type of position in academic libraries, but there is a commonality between us. For me in particular, my role is really to provide research support that centers critical pedagogy. This is support to faculty, as well as students and even staff depending on what the context is. There's an emphasis on promoting inclusive and equitable learning environments, also an expectation of the kind of implementing and incorporating critical librarianship and critical information literacy principles in what I do. This is all, of course, from an education focus because I am the critical pedagogy research librarian in the Graduate School of Education. And so there is that education focus that is the umbrella for all of this.

And then, I think at the heart of a position like this is an emphasis on multiple ways of knowing and looking at marginalized perspectives as well. What comes with this whole thing of critical pedagogy is the pedagogy, but also the foundation that that relies on which is critical theory. And then, if you maybe look at it in a sort of spectrum kind of way, you have this critical theory that leads into critical pedagogy, and both of those can then lead into what I would think or what I call critical action.

All of those things come into play and can be applied to pretty much any academic or discipline, honestly. But for me, I'm applying it not only to my own particular discipline, which is library and information science, but then also in the discipline that I'm working in within education. Critical pedagogy actually arises out of education, but still there's a need to focus on that even within the education discipline. I think that it can often be overlooked. My position kind of arises out of the need to refocus school education wanting to refocus some of what they're doing on critical pedagogy. So, all of that is connected to what I'm doing in this particular space.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Great. Thank you for that.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
Do you ever find it ironic that a profession predicated upon curating, preserving, and providing access to information, research, and books is so opposed to using those same resources to turn a critical lens inward? And why do you think that is?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I do think there's some irony there, but I think when you break it down, it begins to make sense of why things are the way that they are. Information systems, library systems are hegemonic systems. They uphold state, the ruling class, and principles and ideas that come from that, which means that they are supporting status quo. That also means that anyone who is other is actually not being attended to in such a system. To turn a critical lens to something like this means critiquing that imbalance of power; it means unrooting inequities that exist in these systems; it's looking at all of the things that we're talking about with DEI initiatives, diversity, and inclusion, along with equity and belonging. And all of those things are part of what you're critiquing when you turn a critical lens to our system, our information, and library systems.

And then I think also there's this aspect of critiquing this false narrative that a lot of libraries can fall into around neutrality. Really, many of us know neutrality is non-existent. It's not even a real thing here when we're talking about libraries. Libraries are not really neutral and by not taking a stand or... You can apply that adage, that old adage, "If you stand for nothing, you fall for anything." That is something that, I think, that happens when we're talking about libraries and neutrality. This idea of not getting into the fray of things is really still making a decision and choosing a side to not actually participate and what it means to promote equity among our institutions and our communities.

That critical lens is something then presents itself as a problem, because there are these issues that are rooted in our library systems and our information systems that are hard to tackle. They are hard. And then also there's a resistance for some against that, because some people don't believe that there's anything wrong with what's happening in our libraries. It's not to, I would say, denigrate libraries. Not at all, because we all are part of these systems and we want to bring resources and access to information to people. There is a desire to do that and wanting to do good through this profession, but I also think that we also have to be wary of what that is and realistic also in terms of how we can improve what we're doing and how we're interacting with people in communities despite these issues that we have. How can we address those issues so that we can actually connect with people and community in a way that is transformative?

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
Thank you.

LaRee Dominguez:     
 I love that irony there in terms of how you've spelled that out for everyone. You made it very clear and it's just so mind-boggling that we hear people wanting to help and practice EDIA and have a EDI lens, and then all of this other comes into play and they don't want to do it.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Right. Right.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I also don't want to ignore the people who are doing the work, because there are some of us who are wanting to try to make these changes. There's just not enough of us to make the lasting change that we need. And so this is why we have to keep doing the things like this and this kind of work because we need to get more people involved and on board so that we can actually see the changes that we are working so hard towards.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah. I think people forget that even when one person leans in to help with this, it makes a huge difference and one person doesn't carry it all on their shoulders. In your 2021 ACRL virtual article, Criticalness of LIS, you can contend the absence of criticality in LIS has presented itself to be an issue that has prevented awareness and lasting change within the field and discipline. Can you speak to this issue and share how widespread adoption of criticality among library workers could facilitate equity, diversity, inclusion, and anti-racism in libraries?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes. I think with that particular article, it came out of a presentation that I had at ACRL that was really meant to address the lack of criticality in LIS, but also to then promote it amongst those who are interested in bringing that to their own work. For me, I was wanting to also share my own journey and personal philosophy towards and around criticality. I think criticality refers to a large suite of things, and so when I speak on criticality, I'm thinking about how I use critical theory in my research, I'm thinking about critical pedagogy, and now I'm applying that to my teaching, and then also critical action in my practice. For me, I separate practice from the teaching, because I'm also a librarian who's doing that practical work of librarianship, not just the teaching and instruction. I'm thinking criticality in this sort of holistic kind of way, but also just really wanting to embrace this in all these different areas as a scholar.

This then continues on, right? Actually, critical action is one component of critical consciousness. There's these three components: critical reflection, critical motivation, as well as critical action. I think that those three things actually altogether is something that we should be embracing in librarianship. Really, if we're looking at all of these types of critical concepts, they then manifest in critical librarianship and critical information literacy. That's kind of the goal of embracing criticality in this work so that we can get to that point of what does it look like to practice critical librarianship, what does it look like to teach critical information literacy, and how we should be going about that. I think embracing this, it aids us in this examination of the field and the discipline, how we're operating within that, but then also these ideas around equity, diversity, and inclusion, belonging, anti-racism, all of those things, accessibility as well.

Those things definitely benefit from this critical practice. If we're bringing this into our work in all of the ways that that has manifested, you can't help but then be able to start thinking critically about these issues that we have to tackle within this field. I think that we definitely can work in that space and be thinking about DEI and initiatives and things like that without necessarily engage in criticality, but I think that at the end of the day, when you don't engage criticality in doing this work, then that's what leads to failed initiatives that are not actually addressing the root of the problems. Really, we need criticality. We need to be incorporating that into everything that we're doing so that we can see the positive changes that we really desire.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
Lately, I've been reading up on why EDIA trainings fail, or perhaps more accurately why EDIA trainings are designed to fail. One commonality that keeps popping up in article after article is these training programs data dump without incorporating actionable next steps. In your opinion, could the explicit inclusion of critical action empower library workers to bridge the gap between theory to practice?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I do agree that there is often a lack of emphasis on critical action in the work that we're doing, and so I do try to highlight that component. And I say sometimes. This is not even always the case, but sometimes we might be engaging in critical reflection but then never get to the point of action and things just kind of drop off from there. There definitely needs to be a concerted effort. After we have identified a problem, we actually take the time to reflect on it, and think about our motivation and what we're wanting and trying to do. There still needs to be the action behind it. So, I definitely would say that some of this, it can be contributed to that lack of action. But also if I'm being just thinking about the components of critical consciousness, as I just mentioned, sometimes we're lacking in critical reflection, too.

I do think that if I'm comparing these, there is more reflection than there is action. But even in thinking about critical reflection, we're lacking in that as well. And so e need to really be thinking probably about this as a whole in terms of the reflection and thinking about our motivation and then actually implementing action so that we can see some changes. But also, if we're talking about how some of these programs and trainings fail, I would also just highlight one of the major issues is that there's this focus on recruitment but not enough focus on retention. That retention, really, is a product of the fact that the library workplace and environments are not being attended to. That's being ignored, but there needs to be much more effort towards changing the environment, the work environment itself, because that is part and parcel of why retention isn't happening.

Because once you get these people in, they are in these workspaces that are toxic. And who is going to stay in a toxic work environment and actually continue to give to an institution that's not giving back? That's some of what we need to be looking at and addressing when we're talking about these programs, these trainings, these ways of bringing in people and trying to diversify our institutions without actually making people do the work. The people who are already there do the work to make these environments conducive and to be inviting to people, so that they feel like they can stay and actually continue to contribute to that particular institution.

That's what we're dealing with when we're talking about these kinds of things. Certainly, critical action could go a long way, but, obviously, there's a whole lot more that's happening and that needs to happen to actually see some improvement and intentionality. We need to see that.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
Absolutely. I 100% agree. I've noticed, too, I think maybe especially on the West Coast, where I am most familiar with geographically, that a lot of training programs I have seen have focused on the EDI component to the absence of discussing anti-racism. A lot of times, we're having these discussions in a vacuum without proper context, and we are not centering the spokes or the pillars of white supremacy within their proper context, which would be we have ableism or classism or the patriarchy because these are pillars of white supremacy. These didn't just magically appear on their own and so if we're only discussing half of the issue, how are we going to solve anything?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes, we can't afford to ignore the elephants in the room and that's what's been happening. Everybody's tiptoeing around that. But when you bring in people who have to live with that every day, there's no way for us to tiptoe around it. We're just butting heads with it, whereas everyone else is walking around it. It doesn't affect them. So, I would say just personally as a person of color, there is no ignoring these kinds of things. For a lot of us, that means that we cannot continue to stay in environments that we're not able to thrive in. Some of us don't have a choice and that also makes it even worse when you have to stay in a place that you know is harmful, because it's a privilege to be able to leave a job and go somewhere else and not all of us have that.

There are a lot of things to be thinking about. I mentioned race as an example, but obviously there are other marginalized groups that are having to go through some of these same kinds of experiences, because as you say, these institutions are built on white supremacy and white heteronormativity. And so that means you're working in environments that privilege whiteness, that privilege being male, that privilege is class, and all these different ways in which the other is being relegated to the margins.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that privilege up that so many people don't have, especially people of color. The reflective, it's so hard to... I'm not sure why exactly, but it seems so hard to get people to actually reflect. They want to do everything else, but they don't understand reflection is a bigger part of that.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Right. That is why critical consciousness is so important, because of those three components which are iterative. You move in between and through these three different components of reflection, motivation, and action, and you really shouldn't be doing one without the other two. That's where we go wrong. If we're reflecting and not doing anything else, then what's the point? But then also, if we're acting on something without ever having thought it through and why we're doing it and who's affected by it, then you can also create harm as well. And so you need those components together in order to really be intentional in the work that you're doing in these kinds of spaces.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah, absolutely. In many academic libraries, the one shot model of library bibliographic instruction still predominates. What might be one step that academic librarians could incorporate into their instruction to enact more critical thinking with their students?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Well, ideally a semester-long course is what, I think, most librarians dream of and wish that we could do. There are some who are able to do that, but there are many, many more of us who are not and have to do as much as we can through the one shot model. There's difficulty sometimes in working with faculty who have a prescribed idea of what they want in the one shot. And us as librarians also wanting to accomplish certain things within that one shot can experience a dissonance between what they want and what we want and trying to really marry the things between the two of us so that the student gets everything that they need.

Realistically, if we're not able to do something that allows us to get more, I guess, face time in front of a student, then we have to work with what we have. And that often means the one shot. But I think that it's not futile in order to use the one shot to the best of our ability to still promote criticality in the classroom. I think, really, at the heart of that means being strategic in what you're doing. That might be using certain types of keywords that actually highlight the issues that we're thinking about and wanting to bring awareness to in our searches when we're demonstrating searches and things like that. It could mean promoting certain databases that actually highlight diverse scholarship within those one shots. It also can be maybe some emphasis on citation justice and what that means for students and how that can improve your scholarship in your research.

 Bringing awareness to these things in subtle ways is, I think, some of the ways that we can actually transform the one shot. I think also maybe promoting and advocating for and creating resources that highlight diverse scholars is very important as librarians. If we can create those kinds of resources and then bring that to the one shot in terms of promoting those resources to our students, that's another way to get people thinking about what it means to actually privilege other ways of knowing in the research, because, honestly, a lot of times they're not going to be getting that in their class.

Again, we're talking about information and library systems being hegemonic, but education is just as much so. And so we're combating things, at least if you're working as an academic librarian. Trying to combat this from all angles is a lot, but we are definitely working towards improving experiences for our students in the best way that we can, in the way that we know how to, and this is definitely one way to do that. Even if we have to stick to the one shot, there are ways to incorporate these things. You can even be thinking about how to change the one shot model in a way that addresses pedagogies like how can we incorporate feminist pedagogies or even thinking about bell hooks as engaged pedagogy and what those components are that can maybe change how you actually create your one shot and develop that.

There are different things that you can do. Obviously, it's more of a challenge when you're working within a one shot model, but we don't want to give up on it. As long as we're having to be in a place where we have to use it because we don't have anything better or we're also maybe being restricted in a sense of not being able to do a semester course or something like that... Or maybe not even a semester, just something longer than the one shot, something that's more engaged in the one shot. But all of that said, we're still having to use this one shot and so we want to do what we can to transform it in a way that serves the students. I think those things are ways to be thinking about it and to get people motivated in terms of, "How can I change it and make sure that I can give them as much as I can so that they can use that going forward?"

LaRee Dominguez:       
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Being able to change the one shot so that it works really well.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Right. Yeah.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
I'm writing down these terms. I plan to fall down a rabbit hole later today. Our next question, our academic disciplines are built upon hegemonic systems and our research projects are complicit in supporting them. Is it time to rethink the traditional research paper? How do we allow our students greater agency in doing research?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I would say it's probably long overdue to be thinking about or rethinking the traditional research paper. That doesn't mean eliminating it, but just allowing for different types of scholarship to enter into what we consider a vetted resource and that kind of thing. I like to advocate for the use of archival and museum collections and research, not just library collections. And then, that's an increasing thing that's happening and has been happening in universities and colleges, but it's not necessarily a widespread thing. I would probably suggest that as a way of beginning to rethink what traditional research should look like in traditional scholarship. But beyond that, I think we have to think about knowledge production outside of traditional scholarship. That means, again, going back to what I've already mentioned before already a few times, but just this idea of looking at non-traditional ways of knowing, which often is coming out of marginalized groups and what that can look like.

That means that the research is not always going to be a research paper coming from a journal or a book. It can be in different formats. It can present itself in different ways and formats and it's not always going to be a peer-reviewed kind of situation. And so I think that we really do need to be encouraging these other types of ways of knowing that don't manifest in the traditional format. This is a hard thing, actually, because as librarians we're often relegated to this support role and are not always in a position of being able to control what that can look like, what the research can look like. That's something that happens with faculty most often, unless you're a librarian who is considered faculty and you're teaching semester courses, that kind of thing. That way, you're able to affect some changes, I think, in a way that a lot of librarians are not able to.

If you definitely are in that position, I would say, for sure, be thinking about what it means to promote these things to the students, so that they can possibly advocate even for themselves and what that means to bring in these other ways of knowing into their work, especially if they're not getting that from their actual professors, which is often the case. But to really rethink what that traditional research paper is and can look like, because the way that we're doing it now, it means that we are excluding so many other types of knowledges and ways of knowing that are just as valid and important as what we consider acceptable and traditional research today.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Well, thank you for that. I appreciate that you brought in museums and archives. I also have a degree in museum studies and it's amazing a number of students, especially graduate students, that don't think of archives. It's surprising.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I mean, yeah, I think it is kind of a sad thing, too, because so many universities and colleges have archives. I mean, pretty much everyone has archives, but also museums. Those collections are just there. I think there are professionals working within the archives and museums who are also thinking about how to bring those collections to the students, and so they need help in that as well. I think that librarians are in a good position to bring along and collaborate with archivists and museum professionals on our campuses and promote those collections across the board. But, yes, those are ways to, I think, bring new life to research, because those are things that are often neglected and are not thought of. And they're so rich. Those collections are just as rich as what we have in the libraries and in different ways and get you to think about things in different ways. Definitely, we should be looking at, at the very least, our archives and museum collections and how we can use those in the research, because they're definitely useful in a lot of ways that are being overlooked.

LaRee Dominguez:       
I agree. The next question. In our Oregon public libraries, we have been lamenting the death of print journalism and access not only to the statewide newspaper but local newspapers as well. Is it time to move on from this line of thinking and does criticality obligate us and free us to explore new ways that people gather information? And how might we incorporate that into our own public libraries? I love how this plays off of the last question.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes. Yes. Well, first, I would say that exploring new ways doesn't necessarily mean we stop valuing the old ways. There's definitely something to be said about our newspapers, state and local newspapers, and what they bring in terms of knowledge and information. Also, I'm even just thinking about newspapers... Full disclosure, I was a Journalism as well as a Black Studies major in undergrad, so I definitely advocate for newspapers, but particularly local newspapers and Black local newspapers, which I described to Sacramento Observer, being from Sacramento, California. And also local papers where I live now, it's Bay State newspaper here for Boston area people. The Black press is still around and kicking and, as do all newspapers, ut provides information in a way that you might not find in other mainstream venues.

In talking about that, I think that it's still important to still embrace the old ways, while also embracing new, and it's okay to do both. I don't know if there's an obligation necessarily, but I think that we don't want to be afraid to embrace these new ways and incorporating those into our libraries, because at the same time, we want to be and stay relevant to our communities. That means transitioning and moving along with what's happening and how our communities are wanting to gather information and seek information. How can we facilitate that in the best way, as opposed to ignoring these new ways that are emerging?

But I will also say that we want to be cautious in terms of a blind adoption of new ways. As libraries and leaders when it comes to information and knowledge, we should also be thinking critically about some of these new ways and what that means for our communities who are going to be using these ways of gathering information. I say all of that in more of a generalization, but also thinking specifically about things like AI and how that has trans-... or beginning to transform information gathering and libraries in particular. There are definitely real life things that we are having to tackle today around these new ways of gathering information and engaging with information and what that impact is on the community, but also as information professionals working in these institutions.

I think if we're thinking about public libraries in particular and thinking about this, thinking about academic libraries, there's a lot of discussion around AI in particular and how that's changing research and scholarship. If we're looking at it from a public library perspective, I think we also should be thinking about how these kinds of tools that emerging are changing everyday lives of people who are coming into libraries, particularly public libraries, because the public library is this place where everyone goes to when they are looking for information just about anything. It can be something more traditional like for school, but also could be something that's around just your quality of life and survival in society. How can I get this vital information and where can I get it from? I'm probably going to go to a public library first. In a lot of ways thinking about how these things are emerging, we have to, in the public library, really be thinking about these new things that are emerging and how they are impacting just regular folk every day in everyday lives.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Awesome. Thank you and thank you for letting us know about the journalism thing.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
It's a little biased when it comes to [inaudible 00:34:42].

LaRee Dominguez:       
That's awesome.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
I'm still noodling on the effect of other ways of knowing and incorporating that into research or making it permissible in terms of citations. But it got me thinking about all of the other ways in which people of color are viewed as unreliable narrators of their own stories, their own history. In a medical setting, they're not believed by medical professionals. In an academic setting, they are held to a higher citation standard. You can't just regurgitate or share what it is you've learned, even if it's, at the encyclopedia level, something basic.

You're held to this standard of citing your sources and in the workplace as well. I have never in any academic or professional setting been so disbelieved or received so many questions of, "Where did you hear that? Where did you read that? Where did you get that idea from?" Except for information as it pertains to EDIA, not when talking about history, basic history, not when talking about random anthropological facts. Anything tied to EDIA is I've got to come up with some sort of bibliographic record, a list of all of my resources before others in the room will stop and consider that maybe what I'm saying is true.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yeah. I think this whole emphasis and reliance on, quote, unquote, "traditional research" is just meant to illegitimize anything that comes outside of Western thought. Some of what we have to do, unfortunately, is kind of play within those lines in terms of creating scholarship that is also considered traditional. But then at the same time, I think we have to push those boundaries and actually be subversive in terms of looking at what it means to bring in a scholarship that doesn't fit within those boundaries. And how can we incorporate those things in a way that challenges what people think research should be? That, again, is part of my role as a critical pedagogy librarian, is bringing in these ways of knowing and other types of thought traditions. That's looking at indigenous thought, it's looking at black radical tradition, it's bringing in feminists theorists, and queer theorists into the work that we're doing, looking at disability scholarship as well, and what it means to be thinking about other and all of these different ways, because traditional scholarship is just going to exclude those voices and that's what's been happening.

Us as librarians are in a position where we can help maybe turn the tide or fight against that, but really just be able to support the students in thinking about what this is and how that can change their own research and scholarship, supporting faculty who are beginning to think about this or who have already been trying to do this same thing. Because I'm sure if you're a faculty member trying to work in this kind of space, that also can be difficult because you're going against the grain. That's what we're all doing, really, is going against the grain and trying to bring awareness around some of these things. It's a uphill battle and it can be exhausting, but it is necessary and vital.

LaRee Dominguez:       
It is exhausting, but, yeah, I certainly hope that trend for rethinking traditional research and using knowledge from others will kick in soon.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yeah. Yeah

LaRee Dominguez:     
 It makes it so hard for especially indigenous people coming from oral traditions and different ways of knowledge. And then you get into graduate school and you've heard a little bit of it in your undergrad, but you get to grad school and everything in the other is being illegitimized. You're absolutely right.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yeah. And honestly, you might not have heard of anything in undergrad. I think it's very possible to end up in grad school never having even been exposed to anything. If I'm being honest, you can go through grad school and not be exposed either. I know that's part of what has brought me around to criticality to begin with is, because as a PhD student, I started to recognize that so much was lacking in these programs and mine in particular. For sure, it's easy to go through school and never be exposed to something, and that's an unfortunate thing. But again, if you're a librarian, whether you're an academic librarian or public librarian or even a school librarian, there are ways to support our patrons, our students, faculty, whoever that might be, teachers in this work because it's not something that should only be happening in the academic library, even if it is happening there.

But it's something that we can begin thinking about and incorporating at an earlier point within education and even later after you're done with school, which can also attest to what happens in the public library because you have people of all ages in different stages that are coming through your public library for sure. There are many ways to be thinking about it and also working towards that, depending on where you are, what institution you're in, and what your particular capacity and positionality is. But there are just so many avenues and opportunities for us to really make a difference in the best way that we can from where we are. Obviously, it takes many of us to be working towards this and that's something that, I think, that we all recognize. But at the same time, we also, at least me, want to empower just the individual to start where you are, because it can be overwhelming if you're thinking about, "What can I do? What can me just this one person do?" You can do something and you also can bring other people along with you who think like you and create something among other people as well. So, you can start small with just you and move from there.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah, I love that. When you do start small and bring others in, you're also supporting those that are already doing the work and getting tired.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Right. Yes.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Yeah. We've got to support each other. Thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes. Yes. Thank you for having me again. I love to be able to talk about this stuff. It's always fun, so I love it. Yeah.

LaRee Dominguez:     
I like listening to you and just all of how you can connect everything so easily.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
I don't know if it's easy, but I spend a lot of time thinking about these things. What you're seeing is the result from so much thought around this. There's just so much. There's so much to be thinking about. I also get just a lot of energy from other people who are also working in these spaces and promoting these same kinds of ideas. I know it's not just me talking about this or seeing value in these kinds of topics and so that's a motivating thing as well.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
No, I find it fascinating. I know this is our second time interviewing you and Ericka had the pleasure of interviewing you, I believe, the first time around.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
But criticality fits me better than even conflict theory, which I adored as an undergrad in terms of how to break down the world and view power imbalances. This really speaks to me. I'm wondering how many other librarians have adopted this pedagogy as far as you know. Are you a very small group of individuals?

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yeah. I would say there's a small group, but there are other librarians and information professionals who are thinking about these things and talking about... I would say one of the ways that has manifested that you see a lot more of is just thinking about social justice in LIS. That's a very prominent topic. And there are scholars who are talking about critical librarianship and critical information literacy specifically, so there's a lot of that. I think I try to think about it and discuss it in a way that's more holistic and bringing in these different aspects of criticality. I also actually facilitate a professional development course through Library Juice Academy and sometimes through We Here around critical concepts in LIS, and so I'm talking about these things.

Predominantly, I'm having people who are already working in the profession and who like to sign up for this course and who want to actually be thinking about incorporating criticality in their own work. There's definitely a need for it and a desire for people in the profession, because a lot of people recognize that they didn't get that in their master's programs. I even have some students who are at the tail end of their program who sometimes take the course because they have come that recognition also pretty early on, which is great. Because I know as a master's student, although I was thinking about blackness in LIS and the lack of that, I wasn't necessarily thinking of it in this kind of way, in this broad strokes kind of way and how it touches everything.

 Again, there are people definitely working and promoting ideas around critical theory and different other concepts such as, again, social justice or decolonization. Things like that come up a lot, I would say, within our discipline. And so there's quite a few people delving into these different types of areas just in different ways than how I'm approaching it.

Roxanne M. Renteria:   
Thank you. As I said, I find the topic absolutely fascinating. I'm sorry I don't have more time to spend with you picking your brain, but I've written down so many terms you've mentioned today and absolutely plan to fall down a rabbit hole later. Thank you for sharing.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Absolutely. I think I will be right behind you in that rabbit hole. You've hooked us.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Oh, great. Love to hear it.

LaRee Dominguez:       
Well, thank you again for being here. We so appreciate it. Maybe we can talk again sometime soon.

Jamillah R. Gabriel:   
Yes, I would love it. Yes.

[Voiceover] 

OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries would not be possible without the generous support from the Oregon Library Association and the State Library of Oregon, whose mission is to provide leadership and resources to continue growing vibrant library services for Oregonians.

[Voiceover] 

We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state, with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon.

We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future, whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade enforced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.

[Outro Music Playing]