S3, E9: We STILL Need Diverse Books w/Caroline Richmond & Dhonielle Clayton

In this episode we welcome We Need Diverse Books (WNDB) board members and authors Caroline Richmond (Executive Director) and Dhonielle Clayton (COO) to discuss why it is more important than ever to ensure diverse books are available and accessible to youth.

Since its creation in 2014, WNDB has championed diverse publishing and diverse creators, and has pushed back against the lack of diverse representation in youth literature, publishing and collections. Their advocacy efforts include, but are not limited to: mentoring marginalized creators, donating diverse books to schools and libraries across the nation, providing resources to diverse publishing professionals, and supporting educators and creators facing censorship attempts. 

Learn more about WNDB's programs, resources and successes.

Hosts: Gene Iparraguirre and LaRee Dominguez
Date of recording:  November 8, 2024

Mentioned in this episode:
Indigenous Reads Risingq
Books Save Lives Campaign
Walter Grant
Amy Tan's The Joy Luck Club

Caroline Richmond's Author Website
Dhonielle Clayton's Author Website

Transcript

(Intro Music Playing)

LaRee Dominguez:           
Hello, and welcome to Overdue: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. I am LaRee Dominguez. My pronouns are she/her. And I'm joined by my co-host today, Gene.

Gene Iparraguirre:          
 Hi, I'm Gene Iparraguirre from the Coos Bay Public Library. Today we are joined by Caroline Richmond. She's an experienced non-profit director, and award-winning author. She's currently the executive director of We Need Diverse Books, a non-profit that strives to create more empathetic world through the power of diverse literature. Caroline lives in Maryland with her family. 

And we're also joined by Dhonielle Clayton, a New York Times bestselling author of the Conjureverse series, the Belle Series, Shattered Midnight, co-author of Blackout, Whiteout, The Rumor Game, and the Tiny Pretty Things duology, a Netflix original series. She hails from the Washington DC suburbs on Maryland's side, she is the board chair of Non-Profit We Need Diverse Books, and president of Cake Creative, and Electric Postcard Entertainment.

LaRee Dominguez:          
So happy that you're here with us today, Caroline, and Dhonielle, and we have an icebreaker question for both of you. Would you share with us one children's, or YA book that we must read? And Caroline, let's start with you.

Caroline Richmond:         
I chose The Downstairs Girl by Stacey Lee. It's a YA historical fiction book that is set in late 19th century in the south. It follows an Asian-American protagonist, and deals with just a lot of issues of the time, like racism, like trying to make a living in a place where you are a woman, and a minority. It sheds light on Asian-American history in a place that most people don't associate with Asian-Americans. And it's all done in this lovely prose, and this amazing protagonist voice who is so likable, and funny, and strong. It's the kind of book I wish I had growing up. I loved reading fiction, I loved historical fiction, but it was really rare for me to ever see my identity reflected in a book, I'm Chinese-American, so it's a book that I'm grateful at least, that my daughter can read, and that many others are enjoying. And it's something I would highly recommend.

Dhonielle Clayton:          
I'm going to do a middle grade book, and it's called Valentina Salazar is Not a Monster Hunter, and it's by Zoraida Cordova who's amazing. And it's about an Ecuadorian-American family as they are trying to protect all of these magical creatures. And Valentina has to go on this road trip with her family all over the United States to save these creatures who are sort of under attack. And what I love is that it's a family story. It's a magical creature story. It's about being resilient, and it's sort of the whole three kids in a trench coat versus one kid saves the world, which I love it when you get a bunch of kids together to show community as a way of being heroic. So, I am saving things, and magical creatures are always amazing. So, it's a great book, you should read it.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Awesome. Thank you both. I have those written down, and on my list. I've seen Valentina, and I've walked by it at work, and I went, "Oh, yeah, maybe I should." So, now I definitely will. Thank you.

Gene Iparraguire:            
I did the same thing. I also was writing them down as you were speaking about them. Yeah, I'm excited.

Caroline Richmond:         
Yeah, let us know what you think.

LaRee Dominguez:          
Definitely we will. So, welcome Caroline, and Dhonielle. Congratulations on 10 years of We Need Diverse Books, and will you please share with us about how We Need Diverse Books came about as an organization?

Caroline Richmond:         
So, back in April, 2014, there was a big coalition of authors, publishing professionals, teachers, librarians, book lovers who came together, and united under this message of We Need Diverse Books, because we wanted to enact change in the publishing industry, and to be able to read more diverse books on our shelves, that hashtag We Need Diverse Books ended up going viral on Twitter, and that is our origin story at WNDB. There were so many people from all over the world who wrote in their own tweets why they believe we need diverse literature. It was such a ground shaking moment of so many people coming together, and coalescing under this one message, and we're able to use that momentum to raise the initial seed money to turn WNDB from a hashtag into a 501C3 nonprofit. And here we are today, 10 years later, 2024 marks our 10th anniversary.

Dhonielle Clayton:          
Still at work.

LaRee Dominguez:          
Yeah, that's awesome. And what a great story, especially for others who have had those question marks, and wondered if we can do this, and you're showing them that definitely can do it. Thank you so much.

Caroline Richmond:         
Social media can be a slog, but it can also bring people together who otherwise would not have found each other. So, I will be forever grateful that something good came out of Twitter.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Absolutely.

Gene Iparraguire:             
So, what are some institutional barriers that have made it historically difficult to get diverse books?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Well, how much time do you have, because...

Gene Iparraguire:             
Quite a bit. If you really want it, we can really roll into it. How have some of your programs sought to address this disparities?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Sure. When we first started, and we got the seed money, it's like, "Okay, let's figure out what are publishing's actual problems, and where can we help?" So, we looked across how does a book go from a person's computer all the way through the publishing industry, and get to people, and we said, "Okay, we need to help authors, we need to help publishing professionals, we need to help librarians, we need to help parents, and teachers." And we tried to design our programming around the institutional barriers that affect all of those stakeholders, and gatekeepers, and participants in the publishing industry. And so some of the barriers were publishers didn't see their lists holistically. So, we started working with a lot of librarians like Dr. Sarah Park Dohlen to look at lists, and analyze them using the stats from the CCBC in Madison, Wisconsin, and looked at what do we have?

What's missing? Let's put out the numbers. And so we really wanted to get a landscape to show here are the barriers, you're not publishing the books. And once we got all that data, and started putting out those graphics, showcasing visually the books weren't there, we started saying, "Okay, how can we help booksellers? How can we help writers? How can we design grants? How can we help publishers with an internship program?" Because there is a barrier of entry to people living in New York at the time, and coming to work for a very low amount of money, and live in one of the richest, and most expensive cities in the country, and trying to break into this publishing has always been sort of I think like a good old boys, or good old girls club. So, we identified all of the major hurdles with all of our stakeholders, and tried to design programming around those things, and working with agents saying, "You're overlooking so much talent coming out of diverse communities, and marginalized communities." So, there was a lot of work to do.

Caroline Richmond:         
Yeah, I would say specifically one issue we identified early on is that if you want to diversify our bookshelves, you also had to diversify the publishing industry itself, because these are the folks who are acquiring manuscripts, editing them, designing them, producing them, marketing them, selling them. And throughout its history, the publishing workforce has been very not diverse. So, you don't have people on the inside who are looking for diverse stories, who are actively trying to acquire them. So, that's why we created our internship grant program that Dhonielle referenced. Publishing remains very much an apprenticeship model where a lot of start out as interns, and they kind of just scale up the ladder from there. But a big barrier to that entry point is how are you going to get an internship if you can't move to New York City? Because it is so expensive, and you have to uproot your life, and find a place to live, and feed yourself for two to three months in the summer.

So, our internship grant provides that key to help students be able to accept internships at publishers, and literary agencies, and give them that cushion, that living stipend so that they can focus on the work, they can learn about what publishing is like, make connections. Since 2015 we've helped over 130 college students, and recent graduates with this program, and over 70% of them now are working full-time in publishing, and it's been really rewarding to see some of them are now acquiring their own books. They are editors, and senior editors at publishing houses, and they are doing the work. They're looking for diverse voices, and they're getting those books published.

Gene Iparraguire:             
Wow, that's fantastic. That's huge leaps, and steps from what you guys were talking about such as just being a club, and letting people be more of a part of it, and the fact that you guys are actively helping people join the group that helps us get more books. It's like way to go. That's great.

Dhonielle Clayton:          
Oh, thank you.

Caroline Richmond:         
Yeah, I think publishing remains this TV movie sort of job that most people don't understand is a real thing that people do. It just seems so unattainable like working in Hollywood, how do you even get your start in it? So, we're just so proud of our interns, too. They are putting in the work every day, still working for not a ton of pay in New York City, but they know how important the issues that they're working on.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, that's a huge help in moving things forward. And you said that diversity in publishing as we all are aware, and I hope those that for somehow have missed that are listening today, what else does WNDB do, in terms of helping BIPOC in the publishing industry, and getting that industry itself away from the old models of no diversity?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
I mean we help in many ways. Caroline talked about our internship program, which is one of our most successful internship programs, but we also focus on the writers as well. We offer a mentorship, pairing an existing writer, and author with an emerging writer, and author. To take a look at their materials to help guide them into publishing. We also created the Walter Award to distinguish Walter O. Grant for these emerging writers because it's a privilege to write on spec, and I find that it's really hard when you're trying to feed yourself, and your family to pour energy into books, but if you have extra income coming in that you can take off time from work, or replace your computer, things like that can help you finish your book. So, we created that, and the name of Walter Dean Myers, we worked with librarians. I built the Walter Award to identify diverse titles that are extraordinary, because it's not just about publishing them, it's about getting spotlights on them.

So, we really try to figure out a way to say, "Hey, pay attention to this book. We're going to order this book, and send it to title one schools, and we're going to donate this copies of this book, but you should also take a look at it." So, we really tried to design programming around the needs of the people in publishing adjacent to publishing at the other side, waiting for those books, the teachers, and parents, and librarians, and then the writers writing them trying to build a launch pad, and a ladder into publishing for them.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Thank you. That helps a lot, and I'm really thankful that we're able to share with everybody out there listening, all of the wonderful things you are doing to help diversity. It's really important work, and we thank you all, everybody at WNDB. Thank you.

Gene Iparraguire:             
All right, so you've talked a little bit about the programs, and the awards that you have. Do you mind just going in a little bit more detail about how they encourage diversity, and what other programs do you use to reach out to diverse authors, and illustrators?

Caroline Richmond:         
So, we serve three major communities at WNDB. The first would be diverse writers, and illustrators. So, we provide mentorships, grants, and workshops to help them hone their craft, learn about publishing, and to get their stories published. We also serve diverse publishing professionals. So, we've mentioned previously about our internship grant program, which is helping to diversify the publishing industry itself, and we also serve educators, students, readers nationally. So, we donate diverse books to schools, libraries, and other organizations throughout the year, because essentially we're trying to enact change across the publishing pipeline from the creation of a story to the room full of readers. And we can't just support the writers, and illustrators without also enacting change within publishing so that people are receptive in these stories, and then we also want to make sure that their books are getting into the hands of readers.

So, it's all connected, it very much is a full circle kind of work that we're doing, and in the midst of book bans that have spiking at very alarming rates since 2021, we also instigated our Book Save Lives initiative, which is championing diverse voices, and also defending our freedom to read. So, we provide grants to teachers, and librarians who are in communities that are severely affected by book challenges. We are advocating for the importance of diverse books, and making sure that we are heard at school board meetings, and at meetings with congressional leaders as well. And it's one of our newer initiatives, but it's very, very vital because so much of the work that we're doing, and the books we have helped to come into existence are ending up on these top 10, top 50 banned book lists across the country.

Gene Iparraguire:             
There's a lot of spinning plates going on with it, which is really great to hear, and see the fact that you guys are, it's not just supporting like you stated, the authors, people putting books out, but also having to change the infrastructure of what we view as publishing, and everything that goes behind the scenes is also important to change. So, I'm glad that's being dealt with, and being taken care of, because I am unaware of the world that happens behind book publishing instead of just getting books out to people. So, it's nice to know that someone's taking care of that, and someone's keeping an eye on that as well.

Caroline Richmond:         
We're doing the best we can, and I just have to shout out to all the librarians listening, thank you for doing the work you're doing. It is so vital, and your patrons, the young readers who look up to you so need you, and the diverse books on your shelves. It has been truly inspirational to be working with librarians both public, and within schools who are still fighting the fight despite not having supportive administrations, and who are just sometimes going it alone, but knowing how vital it is to have diverse books on the shelves, and not backing down. So, they're such heroes in my eyes, so thank you.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
We love you. I'm a former school librarian, secondary school librarian, so I understand the work. It's often think lists, but you are growing the imaginations of young people, and that is important work, and we can only do what we can do because you are on the front lines doing what you do every day. So, we are grateful, and in it with you.

LaRee Dominguez:           
That's awesome. This next question is near, and dear to my heart. In November of 2023, you launched Indigenous Reads Rising, a website dedicated to celebrating indigenous children's literature of Native Nations. And since its creation, how has IRR promoted indigenous authors, and do you feel like IRR has been up long enough that it's actually lifting up several separate nations, and how is this helping educators so far?

Caroline Richmond:         
Well, thank you for checking out the sites. It's been such a joy to work on this program, and creating this resource. I have to give so much love to Cynthia Leitich Smith who is a native author, and who really helped us to get this off the ground, along with the authors Tracy Sorrell, and Angeline Bully who helped us with the funding to create this website, because for so long Dhonielle referenced CCBC before. That's a Cooperative Children's Book Center out of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. They've tracked the number of children's books getting published every year that feature diverse characters, or are authored by diverse writers, and the number of native characters, and books by native authors have just seriously lagged behind for decades, and things are changing. The work that the authors I mentioned previously are now being celebrated, and read more widely.

But the site is meant to be a one-stop place where educators can go, and just find a plethora of titles by native authors, and illustrators that they can incorporate into their classrooms, or their libraries because we know you all have a lot to do, and it's not always easy parsing through different catalogs, and websites to find new books. So, we really wanted to make your life a little easier, and offer this website as a resource. We're trying very much to uplift as many native voices as possible, and the book lists themselves that are on the site are curated by native writers, native librarians, and teachers. And we also have resources too for folks to learn better practices of how to utilize these books in the classrooms, and libraries that they work in.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
And it was just super important, I think when we first started this 10 years ago, and the numbers came out, and we looked at them, I remember looking at the 2015 numbers, and seeing the graphic, and seeing how little native indigenous, I mean there's so little diverse books to begin with, but within the diversity bucket, native indigenous writers, and readers, and the entirety of America was not being served by, or honored in any kind of way. And I remember just being really pissed off, and saying, "This is not fair. This actually feels like censorship, and erasure of culture, and community." And I saw that there were so many books written by white people about native indigenous culture, and communities that it became a bee in my bonnet to say, and has been just a really big part of our mission to lift within diverse communities to know.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, it's so important. And there weren't native people other than maybe a Thanksgiving story here, or there when I was a kid, no characters. It was just mind-boggling the older I got thinking, "How come this isn't here? Why is this happening? Why do we have a few characters of different countries, or different ethnicities within this country?" And still it was the Indian as pan-Indian, which is really awful for kids who are growing up now, and knowing yourself as you're a citizen of your nation, and not just somebody that is called an Indian. That was hard growing up. So, I'm so happy that it's changing, and I really appreciate the work that you all are doing with this. It's wonderful.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Oh, thank you so much. It's really important to us. It's the cornerstone of the things that we do, and it really, I think represents that we are really deeply looking at not just lumping everyone together. How can we really make inroads to make sure that when we say that we are a big tent of diverse creators, and wanting to lift all of the children, making sure that we're centering the children that within this marginalized group are some of the most marginalized. So, we really wanted to create programming to lift these authors to tell their own stories, so that the children, all of the children can read them, and recognize how important these amazing stories are of joy, resistance of history, of culture, and community.

Gene Iparraguire:             
That really swells my heart just hearing this back, and forth conversation about understanding that even in diverse groupings, there are even smaller groupings in it that need a little bit more support, and help to make sure they're equally answered as everyone else. So, that's Thank you. WNDB announced in June of 2021, it would no longer use the term hashtag own voices as it had become a blanket marketing term which placed diverse creators in uncomfortable, and unsafe situations. Would you mind discussing the importance of discontinuing the use of this term, and how the shift away from it has changed the way diverse books are publicized, and shared?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Sure. The term was meant to be a celebration. It was coined by Dutch writer Karen Divas used to be part of, We Need Diverse Books, and help us with a lot of our disability programming. And it was supposed to just be a tool for readers to be able to books by, and about diverse communities, and cultures, and just so that you knew that like, oh, if this is a book about Black Americans, it was written by someone from that community, thus, hopefully would really reflect that, and be a safe space for black American readers. But with anything, when something takes off, publishing tends to ruin it. And so it became this shorthand in publishing, and you saw it showing up in announcements for books, and publicity, and marketing for books where it was like, okay, people are being dragged online when they get details wrong, or when they're outsiders.

Now we're going to use own voices as our band-aid, and as our way of saying this book is about, and for these people, and this is our sticker, it's own voices. It became, especially for queer writers, and content creators, a tool that started to out them, or for people who have invisible disabilities, or disabilities that they don't want to discuss online but are in their books. It became a way to say, "Well, now you have to tell us everything about you because you said it was own voices, so now please publish your medical records." That's how it felt, I think, as a writer.And we just felt like anything that was being used as a weapon to further marginalize writers as we're trying to make sure that every kid gets to walk into a bookstore, and see themselves reflected on the page on the covers too. It just felt like a tool that was ruined. So, we moved away from it. We met as a board, and we talked as a large community of activists, and said, "We don't want to use something that has now been sort of corrupted honestly by capitalism." So, we moved away from it. Some people were upset with us about it, but we felt like if something was causing harm to a portion of our community, then it was no value to us anymore, and we had to let it go.

LaRee Dominguez:          
That's so important. Thank you for doing that.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Absolutely.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Book bans, and challenges are increasing at an alarming rate, and the majority of those challenges are targeting books containing diverse voices, and experiences. Can you please share some information about Book Saves Lives Campaign, and other ways WNDB is working to address book bans, and censorship?

Caroline Richmond:         
Sure. So, Book Saves lives started at the end of 2022, I believe. And since then we've been working with affected creators as well as educators, and also doing advocacy work on the ground to fight back against book challenges on a local level. I mentioned previously we give grants to teachers, and librarians via our book Saves Lives Grant. For the most part, those have been able to be dispersed without too much of any internal strife, or negativity with the grantees we've selected. But we did have a big issue last year with a grant we gave to the Brandywine School District in Niles, Michigan. So, the grant itself is we send books that the grantee chooses to their school library. We sent these books to Niles, Michigan, they were inventoried, but before they were circulated, the school board president heard about it, and decided to block the grant, so the students at these schools could actually see the books behind the desk at the school library, but they could not read them.

And this went on for months where the school board was quote-unquote, investigating the grant, and whether, or not the teachers did it in a correct way, and they were ripped apart in conservative local media. One of the teachers considered retiring early due to just all the stress, and anxiety she felt. Thankfully the school board finally did accept the grant. They lifted their block, and the books were circulated to the students, but it caused so much pain in this community, caused a real rift that one of the teachers, we worked with her own family members, it caused a big divide in her own family. So, this is still very much present on our mind.

We're also providing grants, emergency grants to authors, and illustrators who are affected by bans because so many of them are seeing big dips in book sales, and canceled school visits, so their livelihoods are at risk. And we also work with amazing grassroots organizations throughout the country, like the Florida Freedom to Read Project, the Texas Freedom to Read Project, Authors against Book Bans, fighting back book bans is a big national endeavor, so we kind of need everyone's help. So, it's been really rewarding despite what we're facing up against to have so many allies in this fight with us, and we couldn't do what we do without these people on the ground in these communities documenting what books are getting challenged, and how best to fight back against them.

LaRee Dominguez:          
That's an amazing story to share with us. Yeah, I think a lot of people just look at the outside of what book banning does. They don't understand, or want to accept how many people, not just the children, but the authors, the illustrators, people in publishing, and how they are all affected by just one book ban. You question one book, and it affects so many people.

Caroline Richmond:         
Whole communities. I mean, just recently we've been working with a school librarian in Northern Virginia whose district saw a huge uptick in book challenges since 2021. We were able to provide the library with some new shelves, and diverse books, and bean bags to make their library space more cozy, and welcoming, because they've just really been through it. The school librarian told us that at public school board meetings, librarians were getting called perverts, and groomers, and they mentioned that they've lost many colleagues to neighboring districts because people no longer felt safe working there. They felt high levels of stress, and anxiety, and I think about this district, and what they've lost in terms of staffing, and that knowledge, and what the students are dealing with with this big turnover in staff.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, it's sad, and it has been uplifting for me to see the grants that you all are offering, and other grants that are available, but it's also easy for librarians, and teachers to not see everything, every challenge that's happening, and to hear that grants, and free books that are there to uplift our children are being turned away. And I think that's a good point to share, and I appreciate that. It lets us know that we're not alone when we have those challenges, and we appreciate hearing those stories. Thank you.

Gene Iparraguire:             
Yeah, it's always great knowing that you have someone essentially in your corner that is willing to come to bat for you, or help you out when you need stuff like this, because I think collectively I could safely say anyone that I know has worked in libraries, or even just also school libraries has faced this at one point, or another, or has... It's, we're all one degree from separation. It's not this, "Oh, this would never happen." It's just one degree of separation kind of thing.

Caroline Richmond:         
I know you're interviewing us, but I'm curious as librarians in Oregon, what are you seeing in terms of book bans, and challenges?

Gene Iparraguire:             
Well, I know we're preemptively getting ready for a possible book challenge based on what we just experienced. Someone checking out a lot of really specific books from the kids section that we were promoting in the new section. So, I'm getting ready to face it for the first time from my end. So, no degree of separation just directly, let's see how this, what's going to happen.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, there have been certain school districts in the Willamette Valley especially that have had huge numbers of book challenges, and I think for that specific community it's been pretty difficult, because a lot of the books have been pulled, and we always think the positive, and we go through our steps as libraries, and school librarians, and staff to try, and mitigate any of that. And it just doesn't always help. And we've also experienced at a few places in the state, folks that look at library programming, and if there's anything offered to us LGBTQ+, if there's anything that says it's for kids in a book, or in a title, they're challenging the programming, and then going for the book challenges. So, that has been something a little bit new for some areas. I mean, we're all used to a book challenge here, and there, but then to go after programming as well can be really harmful, and as you say, it builds up that rift.

Caroline Richmond:         
Thank you for sharing, and I'm so sorry for what you're having to deal with, and if WNDB can be a resource, please get in touch, and let us know, because we are here to help.

LaRee Dominguez:           
No, thank you so much.

Gene Iparraguire:             
I'm glad that you're very willing, and eager to help generally everyone out. Which segues to the next question perfectly. What are some resources available from WNDB that can help someone find more diverse books a little bit easier? So, like patron level?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Well, we have so many things on our website, right Caroline? Like if you go to our website, our resource page, we have stuff for everybody from general resources on where to find diverse books, or information on anti-racism work, or race, and equity inclusion, diverse owned bookstores. We have lists. We also have banned book resources like how to address book bans. We've broken it down basically for if you're a creative, or a publishing professional versus just a parent educator, or librarian, or a bookseller. We really tried to, on our research page, give you what you need, because we believe that this work requires all of us having all of the resources, and information we need to silence the nonsense.

We've got a lot of nonsense on the horizon coming people who don't even read books, having a position on what everyone should read, and we have to link arms. So, we're trying to make sure that our resource page, and our social media as well, we put up lots of book lists, things that you should buy, authors, you should follow, people to be on your radar. We're really trying to help everyone, like you said, Gene, so that we can link arms if we're all informed, and we all have the resources we can get to work.

Caroline Richmond:         
Yeah, exactly what Dhonielle said. Please check us out on social media. We have a lot of folks who follow us on Instagram, Facebook, where we give a lot of book recommendations. We also have two free newsletters you could sign up for. One is a monthly one. It's kind of like WNDB news, different opportunities that are popping up from us, like new programs, and grants to apply for as well as just general industry links, and stuff. We also have a teacher, and librarian specific newsletter, and that goes out more occasionally, but it's usually to spread the word about book giveaways we have going on, and other resources.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Thank you for sharing those. I know when the first time I looked at your website I was like, "Oh, my gosh, they have so much information. It's so accessible." And I was really excited when I saw that there were different categories broken down for publishing, or librarians, and teachers, and I really appreciate that.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Thank you. We work really hard. It's true. We work so hard to try to make sure that everyone is being fed, and taken care of, and given what they need for their particular group.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, It's so important.

Caroline Richmond:       
Exactly. No, that means a lot. So, thank you.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Oh, good. Yeah, I was very excited. So, in terms of that, can you talk a little bit about the importance, and benefits to children of seeing themselves in books? We hear this so often, but I feel like there are still those out there that don't understand how important it is. And maybe if you can talk about that a little bit, it will be helpful for those that aren't aware.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Sure. I think we can both talk about this. I think it's so important. First of all, you can't be what you can't see. And I think that books are tools that grow children's imaginations, and show them all of the different types of possibilities. They also teach them how to have empathy, and teach them about their own community. So, seeing yourself in a book as simple as, "Oh, I can be a hero, or a heroine. I can save the world, or I can do all of these things because this character who looks like me, who comes from a family like mine, and a community like mine can also do it." And those are such building blocks of children's imaginations when they're young that create a relationship with their confidence, with who they are, with their community, but also build their literacy. And we want children to have a great relationship to books so that their literacy rates are great so that we can have a literate population just from fundamentals.

But I think that people underestimate when you don't see yourself, what that does to your imagination, or if you only see yourself as a stereotype, as a teachable lesson, as something that someone else needs to learn, or somebody in history that has dealt with a thing versus a living, and breathing person from a community now, here, and now. It really teaches others how to treat you. It can feed you, and children, I think, bad ideas about who they are, and their community. And I just think that it's so important that we have a variety of books that represent all of the children, so that all of the children can read them, and know that the community around them is diverse, and full of amazing people, and with lots of different kinds of heroes that can save the world.

It's not always a white child that saves the world. There are many children that have many skills that can save the world from impending, magical, you know what I mean, wizardry, or whatever it's that we are facing. And I just think it's super important, and it shows the limitations of publishing that they really thought for so long that only one type of child deserves to be a hero. It's such a limiting, and reductive way to be, and you're also leaving so much money on the table since this is a capitalistic society. Caroline, what did I miss?

Caroline Richmond:         
That was beautiful, and perfect, and I think if folks are really looking for the stats, it's there. I've done a lot of research into this, and going back to the 1960s, it has demonstrated over, and over again that diverse literature has this incredible ability to improve reading skills, deepen language development, and cognitive evaluation, and spark creativity, and imagination in kids. Literacy is the foundation of success for everyone, but for a lot of marginalized children, their literacy rates have lagged behind, and that's due to a variety of factors. But one of those is that they haven't had access to diverse books, they just haven't existed, or they have not been shelved where these kids could reach for them, and find them. And that's what we're here to change because a book can completely upend your life in a wonderful way. It can show you what is possible, like Dhonielle said, but if you don't have that, how can you dream big? And how incredible that one little book can really be that change for someone.

It's true. I'm sure Dhonielle has that keystone book in her life. My keystone book was The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan that I read in ninth grade. It blew my mind. I am a forever bookworm. I love the library, I love bookstores. I never saw myself, or my family in a book until my English teacher assigned that book to our class to read. And it was like a light bulb, a very, very bright light bulb in my head of not only could a book take me on adventures, and be escapist, it could validate me, and my identity, and empower me. I don't want kids to have to wait till they're 14, 15, or older to have that moment. For many people they never have that, because they don't have access to diverse books. So, that's what we're here to do because we know the magic of diverse literature, and it's also not just for kids who identify differently. It's for everybody because like Dhonielle mentioned, too, they can teach empathy, and don't we need a little more empathy in this country?

Dhonielle Clayton:          
Yes, we do.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yes we do. And I appreciate both of you touching on the fact that there have been in history even a decade ago, there have been such books written, and that are still on the shelves from many, many years ago that simply portray stereotypes. And that is so hard for not only the children in those communities, but for white children as well, to only see the stereotypes, the diverse aspects, and everything that you're helping to do with diversity is slowly, I think, chipping away at those stereotypes.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
And it's costly, in the sense that the amount of threats that we get. Ellen Oh, and I used to get so many death threats, and rape threats when this organization really picked up steam. And you would think that talking about children's books wouldn't be something that would cause people to want to send you these kinds of messages. But they understand the power of books, and the power of children's books specifically to open the hearts, and minds of all children, and to electrify the imagination like when Caroline, when you're talking about The Joy Luck Club, I remember when I first read that book, it electrified me. It opened something up for me that was so powerful. And I'm not of that community. So, imagine so many kids not getting that.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yeah, that was a great example too. I think The Joy Luck Club helped everybody at that time.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
It wrecked us all. I can still remember Waverly.

Caroline Richmond:         
Waverly, don't do it.

LaRee Dominguez:           
I know.

Caroline Richmond:         
I revisit it every year just because it still feels very fresh to me.

Dhonielle Clayton:          
It's perennial. I watched it on a plane, and I watched the movie, and I sobbed sobbed, full funeral cry, sobbing. I was like, "Oh, my God."

Caroline Richmond:         
And you knew what was going to happen, too, so like...

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Yes. It's like, come on, Waverly, be nice to your mom.

Caroline Richmond:         
I think it speaks to so many immigrants too. You don't have to be Asian, you don't have to be Chinese. It's a unique mother-daughter, generational divide, cultural differences, and not speaking the language in so many ways. So, I could talk about that book for...

Dhonielle Clayton:           
I know. It is foundational.

Caroline Richmond:         
Thank you. Amy Tan.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Yes, thank you. We love you. Thank you for your work.

Caroline Richmond:        
I know she's amazing. I do have to, just as we were talking, I wanted to shout out the librarians, and teachers who've applied for our grants, who specifically said, "I live in an area that is very, very white, and the only diversity that our kids will see is probably in a book. So, can we get this grant so I can buy some books for my students, for my patrons so that they at least can kind of see what the world looks like beyond our town?" There's so many of them that are such true allies, and they're probably the only one at times, but they see the power of a book, and how it can open children's eyes, so you're out there, just wanted to say thank you.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Yeah. And we're here to back you up. You're not alone. And that's what I think we needed to do for librarians, for booksellers as well, for publishing professionals who are trying to diversify lists, and up against all the things in their publishing house, and writers who are alone at their computer being like, "Will anyone want this book? Because there aren't many books published that come from my community." We're here to back you up. You're not alone. We're here to be your champion, and really help you navigate your unique circumstances because we're all in this together.

Gene Iparraguire:             
That's great. Making sure people don't feel alone is very important. You've been doing this for your first 10 years. It's been very impactful. What do you hope to see this upcoming decade trying to project as best as we can to a brighter future despite everything, what do you see yourself for this next decade, or beyond with WNDB?

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Caroline, and I had a lot of talks about this because our beloved founder, and CEO, Ellen, Oh, stepped down in June, and then I became board chair, and sort of setting the agenda for the next 10 years. And so given that we have a second Trump administration, which I hate that I foretold this. I remember talking to Caroline about, "I think that our first 10 years was really about getting the books." Where are they? What do we have? Taking inventory, looking at the landscape, trying to get at those issues that we had seen starting in 2014 that had been going on since the fifties, and sixties. Let's get the books, let's get them published. Let's get writers in the door. And we've seen the impact of that. We've seen so many great writers become New York Times bestsellers have careers, just more books. Children's publishing really did start to answer the call for we need diverse books.

The way they might've answered it at first, we can always have issues with, but they really have stepped forward. Now, I think for this next 10 years, it's going to be about access. With great progress comes in American history comes backlash. And so the book bans are backlash towards progress now. They're trying to silence, and censor, and harass, and menace, and harm creators who are writing from their own point of view, and also librarians, and teachers, and parents who are putting forth these texts for readers to read from within their household, within their classrooms, within their libraries. So, Caroline, and I talked about really focusing our attention for the next decade on making sure that the books that we told publishing to publish now find their readers. And we fight the book bans, and we focus on access.

So, I think our big word for the next decade is access. How do we make sure that everyone is accessing these books? How do we make sure that publishers are lifting their marginalized writers, giving them marketing, and publicity, and opportunities to talk about their work, and getting out there? Because we can publish these books in the thousands, and hundreds, and millions. If no one's reading them, it's capitalism. They're not going to publish them anymore. So, we have to make sure that people find them, and get to them. So, that's our next big frontier. Caroline, did I miss anything?

Caroline Richmond:         
No, that was perfect. We recognize that there are so many teachers, and librarians, and parents who want these books for their kids, but we hear from them in the grant applications we read that there is no funding that they are paying out of their own pocket for any new books in their classrooms, or libraries. The desire is there oftentimes, but they don't have that access point to actually get these books into the hands of the kids they serve. So, we really want to help out those educators, and parents. And we also think we're thinking too about book bans. Those are not going away. And those are severely restricting access to diverse titles.

And we're thinking of ways of, well, how do you get these books to the kids who need them when they might not be able to find them in their school library anymore, or in their classroom library? So, it's the work is not over. While we are so proud of how far we've come in the last 10 years, we recognize there's so much more to do. And we never could have fathomed in 2014 that we would be dealing with book bans 10 years later, but here we are, and we're going to rise to the challenge, and we're going to keep fighting.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
That's how we know we're successful. They're mad. We got the votes, and now they're mad. So, it's like I feel like, "Okay, you want to ban books, we're going to sue you. We're going to be a menace as well. So, you're not going to ban us out of existence. You're just going to make us mad, and we're going to get really busy, and continue our work."

LaRee Dominguez:           
And Caroline, I appreciate you talking about the grant applications you get from mostly white communities, and no money to buy books. I work for a library system that pays for all new materials through outside funding. So, yeah, I completely understand how difficult it can be to update, especially for some of the smaller school libraries. It is a struggle

Caroline Richmond:         
It's heartbreaking that you're having to do with that, and how common this is, the lack of funding. We read these heartbreaking stories about collections that are 30, 40 years old on average, but these kids are hungry for stories they want to read, but we lose them, too, when all we can offer are books published way before they were born, maybe even before their parents were born. So, we're going to have to come together with a lot of different groups, and companies, and publishers, Dhonielle, the children in this country, the readers are ready for these books where they can see themselves. We just have to get the books to them into their hands.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
And get creative.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Yes. I appreciate that. All of this is just leading me to want to have both of you back on here again in a few months, or a year, and find out what's going on, and how we can all help. Even if we're the ones that are struggling, and don't have money, and have a collection that's 30 years old, there's still a little bit of hope out there when we listen to you, and we visit your website, and everyone else that's working so hard to diversify children's books, and help kids. It's something that I think we all need to work towards, and having you all for an example, and a place to find support is so important. Thank you both.

Caroline Richmond:        
Thank you for having us.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Yes.

Gene Iparraguire:             
Yeah, thank you. This has been fantastic. It's been a little bit somber. It's been a really happy, it's been uplifting. It's been a full roller coaster ride of emotions through the entire thing. I've seen The Joy Luck Club movie. I'm going to go out, and check it out for my library, because I want to read it. I want to feel the full impact.

Caroline Richmond:         
The movie's good, but the book. The book is...

Gene Iparraguire:             
I want to feel like you've motivated me to feel I'm going to get ready to cry essentially. I'm going to check it out, get ready, and just let the tears flow.

Caroline Richmond:         
I hope you like it. It is very satisfying to me. It is sad. It goes through some traumatic events, but at the end you do feel like fed, if that makes sense. It's sad, but you feel full at the end.

Gene Iparraguire:             
Yeah. Well, I'm excited. Thank you both. Thank you so much.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Thank you for having us, and thank you for the work that you do.

Caroline Richmond:         
Yeah, thank you so much.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Our work continues. Happy to come back, and check in on progress.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Awesome. That would be wonderful. It's been a delight to talk to you both.

Dhonielle Clayton:           
Thank you.

LaRee Dominguez:           
Thank you.

(Voiceover)
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon. 

Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.

(Voiceover)
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy.

This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit the slave trade and forced labor that built this country, and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.

(Outro Music Playing)