S4, E2: Supporting BIPOC Library Workers w/ Heidi Estrada & Sophie Kenney

In this episode, the remarkable Heidi Estrada & Sophie Kenney discuss RAILS BIPOC Library Workers Group and RAILS BIPOC Library Workers Mentorship Program—two inclusive programs for library professionals in Illinois that foster support and mitigate racial disparities. More specifically, RAILS BIPOC Library Workers Group aims to foster connection, share resources and discuss specific experiences in a safe, welcome, and open space for all library workers who identify as Black, Indigenous, and/or People of Color.

Hosts: LaRee Dominguez & Roxanne M. Renteria
Date of recording:  December 9, 2024
 
 Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

(Intro Music Playing)

LaRee Dominguez:

Hello and welcome to OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. I am LaRee Dominguez. My pronouns are she/her. And I'm joined by my co-host today, Roxanne. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

Hi, my name is Roxanne M. Renteria and I am a librarian living and working in Oregon. My pronouns are she/her. In this episode, we have the pleasure of chatting with Sophie Kenney and Heidi Estrada. 

Sophie Kenney is the youth department director at the Glen Ellyn Public Library in Illinois. She is dedicated to the ongoing work of increasing access, representation, and resources for all children and families, especially those from historically marginalized communities. Sophie is a former ILA executive board member, co-chaired the ALSC Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Implementation Task Force for several years and founded the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers networking group. Sophie identifies as Cambodian American. 

Heidi Estrada is a digital and maker services librarian at the Indian Trails Public Library. She enjoys helping others turn dreams into reality through a variety of creative mediums with an emphasis on accessibility and inclusion in the maker community. Heidi currently co-leads the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers networking group. Heidi identifies as multiracial Korean American. 

Welcome, and thank you both for joining us. Let's settle in with an icebreaker question. If you could live in any fictional world, where would it be and why? 

Heidi Estrada: Want to go first, Sophie? 

Sophie Kenney:

Sure. Well, thanks Roxanne and LaRee for having us. When I think about fictional worlds, it brings me back to childhood reading and those nostalgic, comforting reads that I always want to explore more and dive deeper into. And one of my all-time favorite books is Anne of Green Gables. And so for me, I would love to live in the fictional world of Prince Edward Island and that community that has so many interesting folks, but ultimately uplifts and supports each other. I feel like I am very headstrong, very interesting, quirky person. And so I feel like I share a lot of similarities with Anne in that way, and I would just love to walk in her shoes and live that kind of life. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Thanks again, LaRee and Roxanne, for having us. Sophie, I wish I had known this about you sooner because I'm also a huge Anne fan. So someday we can go on our own vacation to PEI and enjoy it. 

Sophie Kenney: 

That's my dream. 

Heidi Estrada: 

But for my fictional world that I'd like to be in right now, because it's something that changes a lot depending on what I'm consuming, I've been watching a lot of Dimension 20, which is a live play of tabletop role playing specifically the second season of Misfits and Magic. So it's an alternate universe where a group of four American youth find out that they can go learn magic. And it is just really giving me a lot of happiness right now because despite the fact that they come up against turmoil and difficult times, they are just such good, close, bonded friends who are able to manage to work through each other's flaws, their conflicts in ways that feel very authentic and loving. And I'm just like, that's what I want in my life is to make sure I'm surrounded by people like that. Plus magic, magic is fun. 

Roxanne M. Renteria: 

100% yes to your answer, Sophie, I want to join you there. And Heidi, I'm very excited to delve down the rabbit hole later today to learn more about Misfits and Magic. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

I know, absolutely. The first thing that came to my mind for that question was Anne of Green Gables as well. And as a little side note, my grandmother went and she said it was fantastic. 

So the two of you were involved in creating Reaching Across Illinois System, the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers group in late 2020. The goal of that group as it started was to foster connection, share resources, and discuss specific experiences in a safe, welcome, and open space for BIPOC library workers. Can you share more about RAILS and what inspired the idea for creating this group for your library workers of color? 

Sophie Kenney:

Sure. So obviously in 2020, we were dealing with a worldwide pandemic and people were working remotely or working in their library buildings. And then the events of the summer with kind of the racial reckoning that was happening, just really, it was a very difficult time, I think, for everybody, but also to be a library worker. And in the library that I was working at, I kept waiting for there to be some kind of message or some kind of just support from our administration saying, "We recognize that these things are happening. We feel the uncertainty that people may be experiencing. And we want to support you and we want to show you that we're aware of the situation and here are the things that we're going to do to make you feel better." 

And when I asked about making a statement or putting together support for our staff, I was told basically, "Well, we're really just focused on trying to get our doors open." And that was really frustrating and disappointing for me. I felt like I'm not able to just focus on just one thing. I have multiple parts of my identity that I'm thinking about right now that are affecting my experiences, and I can't just say, turn off all these things that are happening in the world. I was afraid for my parents to go to the grocery store because they're Cambodian, but they look Chinese. And I'm like, I was worried that things were going to happen to them. 

And so the fact that this was kind of being ignored or pushed aside or saying that it wasn't as important made me feel like I needed some more support within my organization, within the library community. As I was talking to other people, I heard the similar things that it wasn't there in terms of having other people to reach out to or having other people to talk to. And so, one of the things that I've been involved with was different types of affinity groups through the American Library Service or ALSC, which is the Association of Library Services to Children through ALA. And I was part of a group that did a BIPOC affinity group there, and I thought, "Well, why can't we do this for our state to connect people?" Because I know I wasn't the only one working in libraries. 

And so I looked at RAILS, which has been a great resource for connecting people. They have multiple networking groups for different types of interests and roles and sizes of libraries. And I approached them with starting a brand new group specifically for BIPOC library workers. And they were super supportive and really provided that structure. And I sent out a notice on all these different listservs, like their public libraries' community engagement, they have a group dedicated to equity, diversity, inclusion and said, "We're going to have this meeting. We're going to come together. We're going to support each other under these goals that we have." 

And during the first meeting I was like, "I know I can't do this work alone. I'm really interested in having someone co-lead the group with me and start this new adventure." And I'm so lucky that Heidi was there and expressed interest. And she really, I think, brought a lot to the table with things I hadn't considered before or just another perspective. And now it's come kind of full circle where I've been able to roll off of leadership and Heidi is now leading it and really making it her own, which I'm so proud of her for everything that she's done. And whatever else you'd like to add about how everything started. 

Heidi Estrada: 

I think you said most of it. What you were saying too with how it's kind of come full circle. What's great is as Sophie rolled off of the leadership portion of it, somebody else came in to take over my spot while I moved up into Sophie's role. And I think we're seeing that continue where that person is also bringing in incredible ideas. And I think we just will see this continue to grow and shift and change with each new perspective. So it's all exciting. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

That is exciting. And I know there are a lot of people out there that are looking for this kind of a group in their state, and I'm hoping that all the information that you're providing for us today will make that easier for everyone to get some affinity groups going. It's not easy. Thank you. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

Thank you, Sophie, for giving voice to what so many of my colleagues of color and I were feeling back in 2020. And to be perfectly honest, many of us are still grappling with those feelings. With that said, I hope that the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers group serves as inspiration and motivation for others. It has been four years since the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers group was launched. What has changed over the course of these last four years? What challenges, successes, and/or surprises have surfaced during this time? 

Heidi Estrada: 

The first thing that popped into my head with the idea of what's changed is this weird thing of how much has changed and yet how little has changed. Because when Sophie started the group, a lot of libraries were in that initial like, "Oh, we have to add EDI to our mission and values, which why wasn't it already there? But there was really that push. We were seeing it in other institutions of adding new roles for people to come in and do EDI training and leadership. And then all of a sudden over the last year or two, just as quickly, it feels like those are the first things that are cut, those are the first things that have gone. 

So seeing the support for things like affinity groups from people outside of the marginalized groups who are hopefully being represented by this, how it's grown and then shifted and diminished has been interesting is the best way I can think of to put it. So from that outside perspective of how the world is reacting to all of us, that kind of change has been interesting to watch and think about. 

Trying to think. Other changes, we've slowly added some services and different components to this. And this is something I think Sophie has really captained was making sure that we were providing opportunities for other people to have leadership experience and roles. So a member came to us and said, "I want to start a mental health group component." So we were like, "Okay, let's add a mental health group." We meet on a bimonthly schedule. So in those off months between when the main group meets, the mental health group meets. So there's almost always something that someone can look forward to talk about what's going on in their work life, how they're feeling, how to deal with those things, and to just offer support and a listening ear. 

We've also added our mentorship group. Sophie helped to get a group together to lead a grant writing opportunity so that we could bring Tracie D. Hall in to lead a webinar on navigating white spaces as a BIPOC library worker, which people really enjoyed that. And I think it gave a lot of people a little bit of boost and hope and recharged their batteries a little bit. I can talk more about challenges and successes, Sophie, but do you want to add anything to that? 

Sophie Kenney: 

Yeah, I would just say I feel like what's changed or what's been surprising is that this is one of the few groups that is open to many different people no matter what role you have in your library, what type of library you are. So we have folks that work in circulation, people who work as catalogers and technical services. We have public service folks. And it's really been great to see that no matter what kind of library you work at, geographically where you're located, what your role is, that we all share something stronger that connects us. And that's really been able to build trust and create this welcoming space. 

And I think it's been really beautiful to see how quickly and easily people are making connections that allow them to further their careers, to gain more experience, and hopefully get what they need. Some people come because they do want to network and they do want to get to that next step in their career. And some people come because they had a really hard day and they just want to share what happened to them without having to provide all this extra context to validate why they're feeling, because immediately, we get it. We know why you're outraged, we know why you feel frustrated. 

And I think that's been, not surprising, but just a really wonderful result is that the group is what you want it to be. Because there's that flexibility there and because we didn't really set it up with saying ... The idea of fostering connection and building relationships is very broad and it can mean many different things to many different people. So I really love the flexibility of it and that people have been able to, like I said, shape it and make it their own. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

In retrospect, is there anything you wish you had done differently? 

Heidi Estrada: 

I can't think of anything. 

Sophie Kenney:

I don't know if there's things we would've done differently. I think maybe in that first year, I would've tried harder. It was really difficult because again, we were still with social distancing protocols, but tried harder to do in-person meetups. There's something to be said for meeting virtually, which allows for a wider access and people being able to attend the meetings, but we really haven't had a lot of success with in-person meetings. 

We've definitely done meetups at conferences and little things here and there, but I really would love to have some type of group meetup where we could really see each other in person because I do feel like that is important and I don't want to lose sight of the ability to connect in real life. And also, just the power of seeing how many other people are actually here with you. I feel like I've worked in a lot of libraries where I was the only person of color or maybe one of five. And just to be in a space, I know Heidi went to JCLC and hearing her share her stories about that, I would love for everybody in our group to experience that. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Yeah, I think what Sophie's talking about with the trying to meet a little bit more in person goes to some of the challenges that we have had, which one, we serve a huge service area. The size is for RAILS alone, I think, let's see, they cover a 27,000 square mile area. So that's huge, especially when a lot of our members live in the Chicagoland area. So from one end to the other can be, on a good day's traffic, an hour to an hour and a half. That's a challenge that's hard to overcome, which, based off of a survey that we did of our membership, we are starting to get more people who want that in person as well. So we're brainstorming some ideas for how we can make that happen. 

There's also just time is really difficult for people because they have to go to work. And like Sophie was saying, we have a lot of folks who work in circulation or other part-time roles within their institution. And that makes it really hard, especially if you don't have backing from administration to find time to get to a place to meet with people. 

And then we don't have any monetary support really unless we're writing grants. So in hopes if we did get a large group of people, where would we meet outside of ... Because that's the other thing is a lot of these networking groups meet in libraries of members, which is great, but sometimes our conversations could be more sensitive in nature or we want to really be able to open up. And sometimes workplaces are not the best place for that because if there are other tensions happening or you really want to relax, then finding other places outside of that could be a better place to host. But if you can't plan for a certain number of people or if you don't have a way to pay for that, to rent a room or something, how do you make that work? 

So those are things that we're questioning and trying to figure out and see if we can come up with some kind of in-between so we can start having more of those in-person meetings because people are getting hungry for that. And that's the thing too is with where we started and when we started, the last few years, people have been like, "I don't feel safe meeting in public places yet because I'm worried about getting sick." And I think there are more people now who are like, "I'm ready." So we have to find that balance and it's a work in progress. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

I love that virtual offers increased accessibility, but for many cultures the importance of building connection or solidarity through the breaking of bread or even touch, like hugging, cannot be underscored enough. And so I appreciate that you are seeking to strike a balance between those often opposing needs. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Yeah, I appreciate that as well. And I know I'm an Indigenous woman and I know from intertribal council meetings and research meetings and just get togethers, food is an essential part to getting folks together. And I know that is true for a lot of different cultures. So I can imagine that would be a really great meeting, lots of laughing and lots of yummy food. 

So affinity spaces are rare but essential in part because they affirm our right to exist, validate, or lived experiences, and they provide an opportunity for community building, networking, and mentorship as you had mentioned. How are you able to foster and uphold trust, safety, and confidentiality in a group where folks are quite literally reaching out across an entire state? And Sophie, can we start with you? 

Sophie Kenney: 

Absolutely. So one of the things that we wanted to institute right off the bat was community agreements. And actually, let me take a step back. So actually the first thing that we do when someone expresses interest in the group is to verify that they are Black, Indigenous, or person of color. And we don't really have very stringent or restrictive, we don't try to investigate people online. Really, the very old-fashioned way is to inform people like, "Thanks for expressing interest in our group. Due to the nature of our discussions and the work that we're trying to do, we just ask that if you want to join that you're verifying that you identify as such." 

And we take that yes or no and let people into the group by having them subscribe to our email updates and sending them all the information about how to access our meetings. In that welcoming email, they also get a copy of our community guidelines, which we pulled from a lot of different resources. We read those through at every meeting. We also link them in every agenda so that they're accessible for everyone so that they know that here are our ground rules, here's what we are expecting of you to participate in this conversation to be an equitable partner. 

And then another thing that we do to make the space as safe as possible is before we really start any of the larger parts of our discussion is we announce the purpose of the meeting. It's a meeting for the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers group. The members of this group identify as Black, Indigenous, or a person of color. And if you're here because you're interested in learning or you wanted to support BIPOC library workers, but you don't identify as such, we give them the space and time to exit the meeting before we carry on. And those are just, I think, a few of the things that we've done process-wise to try to set up our discussions and our meetings to be as safe as possible. Heidi, do you want to add anything? 

Heidi Estrada: 

Yeah, I think the other thing or a few other things, thinking on my personal experience is really practicing a lot of humility and demonstrating being very open to go through that process in front of everyone. I know there was an issue brought to my attention at one point that something I had said in a meeting came across as minimizing someone else's struggle and I hadn't realized it. But at the next meeting, I made sure to say a little bit about that and then have ever since been much more careful about what I'm doing and saying in response to what everyone else is talking about. So I think being an example of those things and showing everyone that Sophie and I are human beings who are liable to make mistakes just like anybody. 

I think another part in our community agreement, I don't think you mentioned this, Sophie, that actually means a lot to me, is that idea of each person being an individual and not representative of any of our groups that we align with and that we all have our own biases is something that I think, for me at least, is a good reminder of being cautious and careful and intentional about what I say and how I respond to things. And I think that, like you were saying, those community agreements really help build that, provide a really stable foundation for everything we do. There was something else I was thinking of, but now- 

Sophie Kenney: 

We don't take notes in any of our meetings. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Yes. 

Sophie Kenney: 

We don't take attendance or any kind of record of what was said. And we definitely do reiterate that anything that you do share is in good faith that the people here will also retain its confidentiality. But I think we definitely have people who come to meetings and don't share a lot or people who share often. But thankfully, at least in my experience, I've never heard of a specific instance or experience that somebody has shared has left the group. 

And I think because we do really respect and know that the space is something rare that we have, and everyone who is invested in, like Heidi said, your own growing journey, your own learning journey, or just processing through something that happened, we won't be able to have the space if people don't respect and trust each other. 

Heidi Estrada: 

I remembered what I wanted to say too. Something else I think that's big to helping to foster this community is leaving space, which has been a really hard lesson to learn and to acknowledge and get over is just leaving space for people to talk. Again, it's been very intentional to let silence hang sometimes because we might just open up for people to talk about whatever they need to in that moment, whatever might be bothering them. 

And it could be a good 5, 10, maybe even a little longer seconds of silence, which is very uncomfortable. But every time that happens, when I think a meeting is about to bust and just fail, someone breaks in with something and all of a sudden we have an hour long worth of things to discuss and talk about and bond over or work through with each other. And I think that really builds that sense of community is that we can be there just as much for the exciting or the things that we can talk a lot about with each other, and we can be there for those moments where we just need to have quiet contemplation, which is very rare in a lot of spaces. 

LaRee Dominguez:

Yeah, I love that. I love that you leave space and communicate that by everyone just waiting for someone. I know a lot of times it feels like somebody jumps in, especially a host or facilitator, and then that sort of negates leaving that time for people to process and feel like they can share in a safe space. I love the idea too, that you send out all this information about safety and fostering relationships and the community agreements in an email before someone's first meeting. That's really important and I think a good reminder for them before they show up that they need to be aware and respectful. It sounds wonderful. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

Thank you for highlighting the fact we're all a work in progress, Heidi, but also leading by example when it comes to letting go of ego and apologizing, right? Because at the end of the day, it's about impact and not intent. And a genuine apology, I feel personally is one of the greatest gifts we can give another person, especially when it is tied to adopting better behavior. 

So my personal experience and colloquial conversations I have had with fellow BIPOC underscore the benefits affinity groups can provide. Have you had queries from marginalized non-BIPOC library workers regarding the desire to create additional affinity spaces under the RAILS umbrella? 

Heidi Estrada:

 I don't think we have under the RAILS umbrella. I know that we've had a few people reach out around the country to ask more about it. 

Sophie Kenney: 

Nobody has reached out to me personally, but I will say that I wish there were more groups because I do feel like the intersectionality of all of our identities that the more support or the more that you can have a network of colleagues who share identities with you, that just feels like the more the better. I don't know. But yeah, no, I feel like there's opportunities there, but nobody has reached out to us. 

Heidi Estrada: 

I think it would be interesting to see if we encourage members of our group because what is so incredible too, and we all know this with intersectionality, is that everybody, we have a lot of different identities and life experiences within our group. And maybe we could do a little bit more to encourage folks to, if the larger group as it is is not meeting all those needs, to encourage them to create their own subsections or maybe be the one to go out, create that RAILS group that will serve their particular needs or other marginalizations they fit within. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Yeah, those are important things to keep in mind. And I really like the idea of setting up your own. It helps with the intersectionality and it helps encourage folks. Even if they aren't wanting to set up their own, it gives them room to validate that, oh yeah, we could do this. I think that's really important. 

So we should also note that the RAILS BIPOC Library Workers group established a BIPOC mentorship program with the goal of helping BIPOC library staff build relationships, share experiences, and develop skills to advance in their careers. Can you share more about the mentorship program and the significance of mentorship for people of color working or interested in the library profession? 

Heidi Estrada: 

I think, Sophie, you've done the most with our mentorship group, so if you want to start. 

Sophie Kenney:

Yeah. So I've been lucky enough to have been a part of mentorship programs previously, but in the library world, I never had a BIPOC mentor. So even though I had someone to either informally or formally offer guidance and connect me with other people, I still felt like there were situations or there were things that came up or things I had questions about that I felt like I couldn't get my mentors to really give me the best guidance because they just didn't share that lived experience. 

And one of the things when we had started the group was I really wanted to just show up for people. I wanted to give people opportunities that they wouldn't normally get in their everyday roles. And one of those things was a BIPOC-only mentorship program. There's other mentorship programs that exist for library workers in Illinois, but not one that was specifically for BIPOC library workers where the only people that would be mentees or mentors would identify as BIPOC. 

And so we piloted this program two years ago and there was a lot of demand and it was great. We had so many mentees that a lot of the mentors had to double up, which is not ideal. But at the end of the day, I never wanted to turn anybody away who had an interest and wanted to have somebody else in their corner to help them. And it was really wonderful. We had all of the mentors put together profiles so that the mentees could self-select or put their preferences in for matching. Because I feel like that is really helpful in driving engagement and investment into the program is when you have an actual say in who you're partnering with and whether that is somebody who has experience in the field that you're interested in or somebody who may share the same identity as you or someone who has hobbies that relate to yours. I think that is a really good basis for connection and offers a higher potential for a positive relationship. 

Something that we also did that I really think is important is not only had one-on-one meetings with the mentees and mentors, but we had larger cohort meetings so that even when you were in the program, you were still being connected to fellow mentees and other mentors. So it wasn't just like, here's this one person I'm getting to know really well in the program, but here's 20 other people now that I have a connection with. 

And what's really been wonderful is empowering all the mentees and seeing how they realized that you don't need be a manager, you don't need to be someone super-senior in your career to just be there to support someone else. And we actually had a few of our mentees step up to apply to be a mentor in the second round, which is the kind of thing that we want. We want to empower people, we want to support people, we want to show them what they're capable of. And Heidi was a mentor in our pilot program and also helped in the planning committee. Oh, you weren't a mentor? 

Heidi Estrada: 

I just helped in the planning committee. 

Sophie Kenney: 

Oh, sorry. 

Heidi Estrada:

 But thank you for ... It's okay. There's a lot going on. It's hard to keep track of everything. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

The idea of having a little bit of a say if you're a mentee or a mentor in who you're partnered with is so important and rarely happens. This is exciting that you've started that from the beginning and that in your second round and everything's going well and it's very popular. It can lead to some hidden leadership skills, I would think. 

Heidi Estrada: 

I think that what you're saying, LaRee, and talking with Sophie about how many more mentees we have is now convincing everybody else you do have the skills to be a mentor regardless of where you are in your hierarchy at your library. You bring incredible skills with you from just your lived experience to share with other people. So trying to get them to become the mentor next time. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

That's cool. I appreciate that. 

Heidi Estrada: 

I think going back to the second half of your question, just about the significance of mentorship, like I said, I have not been a mentor or a mentee with our group, but I was both at different times in the Asian Pacific American Librarians Association, APALA. And one of the big things that stands out with that type of mentorship-mentee relationship versus other peer advisory groups I've been in where they're overwhelmingly white people versus having a mentor-mentee relationship with another person of color is that it's more productive. 

You get to skip all of that either trying to explain yourself to people and give them a framework of what it is to be yourself in the place where you work and how all of those different parts of your identity affect that. You get to skip all that. Or if you do have to talk about it, there's never a question of are you sure that's how it was? Or well, maybe they didn't really mean it that way. It's always this feeling of acceptance of that is your experience and that can be awful or that can suck. But you kind of get to skip over all of that explaining and just dive into this is the experience, how are we going to deal with it? 

And you get to work through that together, which is until I was in a place like that, Sophie mentioned when I went to JCLC, getting to skip all that because everybody just understands, it lifts so much of that labor and work off of your shoulders that you do have more energy to try and problem solve or to just say what you need to say, even if there is no problem solving. It's just incredible, versus I am in a peer advisory group and they're a wonderful group of people, but there are a lot of times that I either have to censor what I'm saying or find other ways of saying it because it's too much effort to try and get people to understand. And it's not necessarily by any fault of their own. They just don't have the framework and the experience to understand it. 

So this type of mentorship relationship is just so amazing at making you feel like a whole human being and giving you the energy to figure out how you're going to approach your professional life, your personal life, whatever it is that you need. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Yeah, it's empowering for BIPOC to not have to explain anything and not have someone questioning you and wanting to question impact over intent. And that means a lot. And I hope that our listeners that have experienced situations where, like at JCLC, you don't have to explain things, can move forward with that in their own groups, even if it's just a group. If they're lucky enough to work somewhere where they're not the only BIPOC or if there's two or three of you that can get together and have a safe conversation, that helps. It helps a lot. Thank you. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

I just wanted to say that I agree with LaRee. I love your idea to create mentor profiles and allow mentees to self-select, Sophie. So hot tip to our listeners. 

And then Heidi, yes, to the radical acceptance of sharing lived experience. I wish non-BIPOC understood so many of us deconstruct these really negative interactions or microaggressions. And often we gaslight ourselves for hours, days, months and years before even reaching out to power holders or calling in and out, trying to do something to change what is kind of quickly becoming maybe normalized behavior or interactions. And what we don't need at that point is someone minimizing or making excuses for the behavior. So if that was anything I could share to outsiders or members of the out group, I think that would be something that I would highlight as well. 

And then our last question is a little bit long, so please bear with me, and here goes. Achieving equity, diversity, and inclusion within the library profession requires change at the macro and micro levels. From a boots on the ground perspective, what advice do you have for BIPOC library workers when it comes to supporting one another as a means of recruiting and retaining colleagues of color? How do we mitigate barriers to our own oppression? And do you foresee creation of additional subgroups charged with addressing this issue? And Heidi, if you'd like to go first, that is fine, or you're welcome to go first, Sophie. It is up to the two of you. 

Heidi Estrada: 

So Sophie and I had a call last week with each other to discuss some of the questions and talk a little bit about them. And I know for me, this is the hardest question to answer because like you said, it requires change at the macro and micro levels. And the macro is just right now, especially I feel like, feels like there's nothing that can really be done to make changes at that level, which I know is not true. 

But I think going back to the mentorship and just providing space and meetings like we do, that is really the biggest thing, is helping each other get through each day however we can, so that we feel like we still have some life in us to keep going to the next day. And saying that out loud right now feels a little bleak in a way. But I know that the relationships I've developed through this group, I feel like I have found folks who can give me time to rest and take breaks as needed so that I can re-energize and then continue to move forward in supporting others while they take their rest and to just keep pushing forward. 

I don't remember the exact numbers, but at JCLC, someone was talking about the fact that the rates of BIPOC entering the library profession have remained about the same, maybe even gone up a little. But the rates of BIPOC folks still working in the profession has basically just flat-lined, which means we are having people enter the profession and just as quickly bow out and leave. 

And when I heard that, I realized what we have to do is figure out how to give each other enough support that those things that make us want to leave, we can find a way to get through them and be resilient and I don't know if thrive is quite the right word, but just get by enough that we can keep pushing those numbers up. Because we're there, there are so many people there who want to serve and be of help in the library profession in these communities, and we just have to figure out how to keep each other there, which is not an easy solution. But I think this group, by just supporting each other, by giving space, by validating existence does help with some of that. 

Sophie Kenney: 

Thanks, Heidi. Yeah, I agree. There's not one simple answer and one way that we can continue to attract and retain and uplift the people who are already working in libraries. And outside of the group, the things that I try to do, and I acknowledge I do have power because I am at the department head level. But something that I personally have really tried hard to do at my own organization is look at our recruitment practices. Some of the things that I've really tried to do is get rid of the MLIS requirement for, I'm putting air quotes here, "librarian jobs." So a lot of the things I've been trying to rewrite are our postings where we can say, demonstrated equivalent experience is enough. You don't need the master's. 

I also think too, something that we think about in the field is, okay, so let's post in all these different places and make sure that we're highlighting our ads to diverse audiences. But what about when they actually get here? How are we supporting them once they are here? And how are we making sure that we are not just saying that we're doing all these things, but we're staying accountable to the promises that we made when we hired people who are BIPOC? 

And so it's not just saying we have an EDI committee or we have a land acknowledgement. What are we actually doing to support these causes and to make sure that we're checking in on people, making sure that people feel safe, people feel seen, people feel heard? Something I'm working on or interested in starting is a new hire buddy program at my organization. Like I said, making sure that we're trying to make our job postings more reflective of a wider range of experiences and qualifications. 

And then also, it's interesting that I started this group for RAILS, but then at my own organization, we don't have anything here because we don't currently have affinity groups. And I've tried informally to do it, but like I said, at the macro level, or at least within my organization, it's hard because I'm just one person. I'm the only person in management that is BIPOC. And there are not very many of us here at my library. And sometimes I feel like I have to, like Heidi said, censor myself because it's always like, "Oh, Sophie's raising her hand. What is she going to try to get into now? What are we going to have to do now?" Because it's just something that for me, I can't stop thinking about it. It is who I am. I can't turn off that part of me. 

And so it's, like we've kind of been saying before, finding that balance between still always moving forward, always trying to figure out what can we be doing better, how much more inclusive can we be? But also recognizing that I am only one person and I cannot save the world by myself and nor should I, and that sometimes it's probably better to let other people in to help and realize that this is work that everybody needs to be doing, whether you're BIPOC or not. And I think that has been a tough lesson for me to learn here because I try to do everything and I have to realize that I've got to do it in tandem with everybody, not just the BIPOC library workers that are part of our group. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Kind of going off what you just said, Sophie, I guess something I haven't really thought about a lot, but a practice I have started doing is with people whose ears I can get within my institution, like when they do things that I think are really incredible. So I will say I'm very proud of some of the initiatives our library has taken. Going back to Sophie mentioned getting the MLIS out, part of that is either doing that or providing opportunities for people to be able to work up to those types of levels. And my workplace does a great job of promoting from within as well as providing opportunities so that people can go get their MLIS. And when you finish, if you use the tuition program we have here, then you automatically become a librarian. Your job title goes from assistant or something like that to librarian in that department. 

And so with programs like that, anytime I hear that we're doing something, improving something, I try to make sure I have conversations with our director about like, "Oh, this is so awesome. What you're doing is great. It's going to serve so many people." So really advocating and talking up and bolstering, this is awesome, you're doing great. Here is the program that's really doing well and benefiting our employees and staff in hopes that that will increase more programs of that nature. 

So it's like we pump up some egos, maybe that will help push people in the right direction of making changes that not only serve the BIPOC staff here, but all staff. As with anything, when we talk accessibility, usually universal design serves everyone, not just people with a disability who need that. Everybody can take away from it. So in that same way, when we create opportunities like that in our spaces and our profession, we create opportunities for everyone that also happen to serve and hopefully uplift our BIPOC coworkers. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

Yes to universal design, Heidi. And some days it feels like we're engaged in a war of attrition with some folks in the profession waiting for the clock to time out on us. So I think it speaks to your point, Sophie, reciprocity is key. It's about taking turns. And personally, it really helps for me to frame our involvement within the library profession as like a relay marathon in which we all rotate in and out, providing support for others. But also taking time for self-care as our colleagues of color metaphorically move to the front and carry the baton in our stead, knowing that one day it's going to be my turn again to move to the front. So in case that sort of thinking is helpful for anybody who struggles with guilt when it comes to taking their own self-care, maybe think of it as like a relay marathon. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

I like that idea, Roxanne. That can help, especially when you're having those moments where you're like, "Why am I still in this profession?" I know we all know some BIPOC people who have left the profession for various reasons. But thinking of it as the long term, as the relay race might get through to some people that, you know what? It is hard work, but let's try to move forward. 

I appreciate, Heidi and Sophie, what you're doing and how you are trying to change things. I love that idea of getting rid of the LIS that can reach so many more people. You guys are full of awesome ideas and a lot of hard work. And I really appreciate that you're giving us all some other ways to think about how we can do that at our own libraries. 

Heidi Estrada: 

LaRee, can I break in for a second? 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Yeah. 

Heidi Estrada: 

So the one thing I want to say for any people at an administrative level, getting rid of the LIS is great, but that does not mean you get to lessen how much you pay people for their position. That is the thing that is maddening to me is I see a lot of libraries who are doing that, but they're doing it for the sake of cutting a budget. And it's like, "No, that work, no matter what degree is attached to it, it's still the same amount of work. So it should still be worth the same amount. You all need to pay for it." 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Yes. 

Sophie Kenney:

That's my soapbox. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Thank you for pointing that out. That's so true. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

And I want to stand up there on the soapbox with you, Heidi. I will not waste our listeners' time, but I could talk about that issue for days. And I just want to say it's about a living wage and an equitable lifestyle. And that we should be pulling our wage data from across industry the way that a lot of library systems, county and city or district library systems have started culling data from managerial and supervisory positions that are across industry, right? There is absolutely no reason that we need to continue building upon Dewey's spinster-based salary framework and continuing to exploit library workers under the banner of vocational awe. 

And I just wanted to say, when it comes to removing the requirement for an MLIS, I wish more employers or HR departments treated bilingualism with the respect it deserves. That if somebody is coming from lived experience or has the aptitude to be trained on the job and learn on the fly sort of the way that you might as an apprentice, that we would value somebody's proficiency at speaking a second language and treat it equal to the degree. And then consider paying those individuals more once they're up to speed with other maybe English-only speaking colleagues. That there are other ways to frame how we assess proficiency and how we pay folk, and we really need to break out of this black and white framework that we've been operating under. So thank you for sharing space with me on your soapbox, Heidi. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Actually, Roxanne, that point really reminds me of something that has been happening in our group to, I think support one another a lot is there has been a lot of conversation happening about pay for people who speak multiple languages and how institutions should be doing that differently and better to support that. And I think that is kind of getting that grassroots movement happening and everybody is talking about it. I know that there are a few folks who have mentioned their libraries are actually starting to look at policy now, and they're looking for examples of where this is happening and how those decisions about how much of a pay increase will come with that. So it's happening, it's working, and thank you for reminding me about that. 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

You are welcome. 

Sophie Kenney: 

I just agree with everything that everybody has said. And just to kind of circle back to the group about what Heidi was saying, that's another really wonderful component of these discussions is that we're breaking down these barriers of what's happening behind closed doors at management. People are sharing what they are making. People are sharing policies that maybe prohibit or are not to the best advantage of library workers. 

And that's the benefit of having this very wide-reaching network and people who are participating from all different sorts of libraries is that now you do have this information. Now you are arming yourself and you can make a case and advocate for why it's important to get paid, have that additional 1 to $2 an hour raise for speaking another language instead of just wondering, "Oh, I wonder what this community does or that community does?" We have it and it's from a credible source and it's something that you can use in your own fight. 

So thanks for bringing that up, Heidi. And thank you both for all the work that you're doing to highlight everything. It's really powerful and it's just really energizing to just be in a space with folks who get it and who are also doing the work in their own way. 

LaRee Dominguez: 

Thank you. I've got a long list here of things that I'm hoping we can bring to Oregon. So thank you for all of the ideas in the list and all of the information. Thank you for your hard work, both of you 

Roxanne M. Renteria:

Agreed. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Heidi. Thank you for sharing time out of your day with us and allowing us to pick your brains and hopefully inspire, motivate, and affirm library workers in Oregon, particularly those from marginalized identities. I really appreciate it. 

Heidi Estrada: 

Thank you so much, LaRee and Roxanne for having us. And I also want to say thank you to all the members of the RAILS BIPOC Library group, as well as all BIPOC library workers out there. All of your work is incredible. The things you do really build up our communities. And within our group, the fact that we have so many people who trust and look to us is slightly overwhelming, but I'm glad that we're all there in it together so we can keep fighting for what we deserve. 

Sophie Kenney: 

Well said, Heidi. 

(Voiceover)
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon. 

Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.

(Voiceover)
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy.

This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit the slave trade and forced labor that built this country, and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.

(Outro Music Playing)