S4, E6: Trauma-Informed Care & Cultivating Safety in Libraries w/Nisha Mody

In this episode, we chat with the magical Nisha Mody, a Liberatory Life Coach, facilitator, and former librarian, about how library workers can navigate, survive, and heal from toxic work environments. 

Nisha shares insights on trauma-informed care, values alignment, and relational liberation, offering practical tools for self-compassion, boundary-setting, and fostering more supportive and inclusive library cultures.

From identifying red flags in job interviews to re-centering personal values, this conversation highlights the importance of healing, community, and showing up authentically in library spaces.

Date of interview: September 24, 2025
Host(s): Ericka Brunson-Rochette & Brittany Young

Mentioned in this episode:

• Nisha Mody l Website (www.nishaland.com)
• Nisha Mody I Notes from Nisha (Newsletter)
• Nisha Mody I Values Workbook
• Nisha Mody | Instagram (@healinghypegirl)

Upcoming learning:

• Wednesday, October 1st @ 4:00-5:30 PST: How to Break Up with Codependency (and finally figure out who YOU are) - Free (Recording Available)
• Trauma-Informed and Relational Care for Libraries (Self-Paced Course)*

*Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion & Antiracism (EDIA) Committee's Professional Development Scholarship Application form

Transcript

(Intro Music Playing:)

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Hello and welcome to Overdue, Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-Racism Committee. My name is Ericka Brunson-Rochette and I'm a librarian working in the state of Oregon.

Brittany Young 

Hi, my name is Brittany Young and I am the Lane County Law Librarian and my pronouns are she, her, hers. And in this episode, we have the pleasure of chatting with Nisha Mody.

Ericka Brunsn-Rochette

Nisha Mody, she/her pronouns is a certified liberatory life coach, facilitator and writer who supports people in cultivating as much compassion for themselves as they do for others. So they can stop shrinking themselves to be liked and start showing up for relational liberation. With a background spanning consulting, recruiting, speech language pathology and librarianship, Nisha brings deep insight into how we relate to care, communication and systems. In all her work, she centers growth, relationship and liberation as pathways for personal and societal transformation. Nisha coaches clients one-on-one and in groups. She also offers workshops, coaching and consulting services to organizations. You can find Nisha on Instagram @healinghypegirl on her website at www.nishaland.com and you can get the latest updates from her by signing up for her newsletter at https://bit.ly/notesfromnishaland and we'll include all of these links and details in the description for this episode. So welcome Nisha. We are so happy that you're here with us today.

Nisha Mody 

Thank for the invitation. 

Brittany Young

Yes, welcome! I was just getting excited. Yes

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

We're having a little dance party. Listeners can't see us.

Nisha Mody

Yes. Yeah, totally.

Brittany Young

But just know here in our voices, we're dancing. Okay, part of me is just excited for this question, this first question. 

Okay, in your Meet Yourself program, you have attendees create journal prompts using a template of combining ideas using metaphor andletting quotes be inspiration. I know this from personal experience. This strategy inspired the following starter question. If your most liberated self was contained in a children's book, what would be the title?

Nisha Mody

I love this question and I love how you took this from the group and brought it here. So it just feels like a beautiful flow. My title would probably be the delightful Virgo Care Bear because that is my vibe just to be a Care Bear and to connect with others, know that I'm not in this alone, but also know my own power as the Care Bear that I am.So I know I'm kind of co-opting from Care Bear brands, so you know, I'm not really going to do this Care Bears, but it's hard for me to not. TM, mine, exactly.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

TM.

Brittany Young

What's the, what's the, the like, the, the costume name version so you're not doing copyright? Would it be like, the feelings bear?

Nisha Mody

Mmm, yeah, I know. I know. just, could I just do the caring bear or the... I could just do like a delight bear. I don't know if there is a delight bear. They do a lot of different care bears. They've added quite a few. So I don't know if there's a delight bear, but I'll just be like the delight bear. How about that? Cool. Yay. That's what I love.

Brittany Young 

Ha ha!

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

We can.

Brittany Young

Yeah!

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Mm-hmm. Love that.

Brittany Young 

I think that sounds amazing. Mine would probably be something like, Brittnay slowly but steadily embodies the sloth.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Sounds delightful.

Nisha Mody 

I was like, Sloth is gonna be in there. I know Brittany enough to know that. So yeah.

Brittany Young

Maybe, maybe the Halloween sloth. Or maybe I start with sloth and then Halloween later.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yeah

Nisha Mody 

Mmm.

What if it was just about the Goth sloth? Cause that rhymes.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

I love it. The goth sloth. Okay, also trademark. Copyright that, yep, TM.

Brittany Young 

Yes!

Nisha Mody

Yeah, TM, do it now.

Brittany Young 

Free ideas people, but you can't steal them.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

no, love both of those. I, I guess I just, I didn't have time to really come up with one, but maybe mine would be, not the only unicorn. Cause I do feel like there are parts of my identity and experiences where I often feel alone and I'm like, I'm a unicorn and I'm just always searching for somebody else who can relate. But I think there are plenty of people that have those things that are like, I do feel like I'm alone in this, but finding that community is just. It's everything, right? 

Nisha Mody

Yeah, cool.

Brittany Young

Both of you are like trying to make me tear up in this first question that's like a not serious question.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

They can be tears of jubilation. Okay, well, I'm going to get us started on, I guess, our quote unquote, what did you say, Brittany? Our real questions, our serious questions? Are serious questions? Although I think the first one was the icebreaker was serious and it was real. So often, yes, definitely real.

Nisha Mody

Yes.

Brittany Young 

I said, our serious questions.

Nisha Mody

Yes, very serious

Brittany Young

It was real.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Often when we talk about the right to comfort, we focus on the ways in which individuals with positional privilege maintain power and control the narrative. Marginalized people receive less external validation, empathy, and support during these times of strife and celebration, and are often vilified when they speak up and share their experience or dare to question the status quo. With this in mind, how might those individuals provide internal validation to offset the lack of external support?

Nisha Mody

Yeah, I love the juxtaposition between the external and the internal in terms of what's happening within us, what's happening in terms of systems and policy too, because that is what makes marginalization and privilege systemic. And what I am seeing here is the idea of controlling the narrative from the outside ends up brainwashing us. If you have a marginalized identity, you internalize that narrative.

And so I think in terms of providing internal validation, it's one becoming aware of what that narrative is. What are the stories that are not within you when you're born that get conditioned within you? And of course, there are stories we carry intergenerationally. I really do believe that. But that is also very much from survival and from systemic oppression most of the time. So I think what is really important is to one, notice what those narratives are; two, create some type of bridge. And we'll talk more about that in the future questions, I'm sure, about what you could do in terms of personal exercises and collective exercises to connect to yourself and what's happening within you. 

Because ultimately, we can't really control what's outside of us as much as we can control. We could do things. We could try to make changes. We can protest. can sign petitions. We can go out on the streets.We can tie ourselves to tanks. These are things we have choices to do, whether we will do that or not. And we cannot guarantee what the outcome is going to be. But what is internal is something that we absolutely can cultivate safety around and have control over. I think sometimes we think that it's like, I just keep spiraling. I just keep having this pattern. It's not going away. Yes. And how are you actually confronting it? What other stories or maybe shame is, how are you getting in your own way, honestly? And how is you getting in your way also a part of that external plan, you know, and part of that systemic erasure?

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yeah, thank you. I'm just, really sitting with the...the comment that you shared about the internal safety and also thinking about how sometimes we can get in our own ways. I'm remembering times where, you know, when I don't feel safe externally, like I try to find ways to like protect myself or find those safety nets inside, but sometimes that's to my own detriment. And it's like holding myself back from the things that I do have control over. And it's kind of rewriting that narrative internally, you know, to stay safe, I have to disconnect from those things. But I do feel like, you know, with what you just shared, there are ways to, you know, walk that in between line to both be mindful and aware of what you need and the safety, like nets that you need to cast for yourself, but also how you can do that in a way that can affect positive change.

Thanks for sharing that.

Nisha Mody

Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for asking.

Brittany Young

Thank you both, Nisha, for answering and Ericka for sharing, for personalizing it.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yeah, I'm going to journal a lot about that later, actually. I feel like I couldn't even really articulate the ways that it hit me, but I just had some self revelations and that's not a bad thing.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah.

Brittany Young 

Not not at all. I'm like still processing it and now I have your piece to process also. Then we can talk, we'll journal and we'll talk about it later.

Nisha Mody 

Ha ha ha.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

You're welcome.

Nisha Mody 

Exactly. There's going be lots of journal prompts that come out of this, I'm sure.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

love that.

Brittany Young

For real already! Yes. Okay, so if knowing is half the battle, how might prospective job applicants identify toxic work environments before accepting an offer of employment? What elements of trauma-informed libraries should they be on the lookout for? I think all of us, when we're looking for jobs, would really like to know this.

Nisha Mody

Absolutely, absolutely. think that's important. And you know, on a very practical, like external level, I think it's important to just talk to people who feel safe for you. It's like, hey, I'm applying to this place. Like, what do you know about it? I think that that is very powerful. And I think networks and those relationships, it's not like you have to everyone also has their own biases and experiences. So I don't think that necessarily mean you have to take everything as fact. But I do think that it's important to be discerning in that way while also connecting with others. So that's one way. And when I talk about, I also want to kind of define trauma-informed libraries, it's really spaces that understand that one, trauma happens to people, whether they are at work or even earlier in their lives, intergenerationally, systemically, interpersonally, things happen to everybody regardless of their identity. And because of that, they might be triggered or feel unsafe in work environments because of what they've gone through.

And a trauma informed library is a library that cares about that, that tries to cultivate safety for their workers. And I never say create safety because safety is not something anyone can determine but yourself. But I do say cultivate. Like what are ways that you're offering choices? And I mean, I could talk about this forever, but there is a lot of things, and this is what I give workshops about and do, is what are some ways that you can cultivate safety? I think it's really important to even see, okay, what is the interview process even like. And I know a lot of the interview processes might be determined by HR, which you might not be encountering every day. And if you do have challenges in a workplace, you may have to report things to HR. So understanding how they go about things and the decisions they make and the policies that they have, you can get an idea about how human-centered they are. And you can also cross-reference with the people that might be on the library side of things about the process.

and what part is their decision versus someone else's decision. And I just really, really think that in an interview process, you say trauma-informed environment is very important to me, I think you're interviewing someone as much as they're interviewing you. 

Do you know about trauma-informed libraries? What type of initiatives do you have? What types of things do you do to support your library workers? What support systems do you have? And I think how they answer that question is really important. I don’t think they have to have every single thing in place necessarily. But I do think it's important to gauge from their answer if they're just avoiding it or they have no idea what you're talking about or if they're curious or open minded about it. Like, I'd love to learn more resources about that. Thanks for bringing that up. Or, you know, that is something that's been on our radar and we would actually like to provide trainings. Then you actually know that they care. 

Now, I mean, think caring, sometimes people do things out of liability because they are afraid of getting in trouble. And I think that's another thing to be discerning about. But I do think just directly asking that question and saying what you care about and what you value is going to show them who you are and what matters to you, which I also think can potentially help them in hiring you. If you're willing to say, I am going to this matters to me so much that if they know that I care about this, this is a problem, then that's fine if they don't hire me, you know, because I don't want to be an environment, especially if you're coming from an environment that traumatized you. Reducing retraumatization is one of the four Rs of trauma-informed care. If you're traumatized, you're traumatized. There's nothing anyone can do to take that experience away from you or the impacts from that experience, should say, because trauma is never the event. It's how you respond to the event. But it can do things to reduce retraumatization in the best way that you can without you having to disclose. I think, I mean, I think directly asking is really helpful. Looking at what the interview process is, having conversations again with people outside of the work environment about what their experience is, I think is a very practical way of doing that. 

And just, I don't know, if you just get a vibe in your body, like listen to that, you know, notice, notice that, like where's that coming from? You know, one of the modules in meet yourself is, it my trauma response or is it my personality? And I think it's really important to discern like, is this my trauma response? Like, is there something that they said that isn't necessarily indicative that this is a bad place? Or is this some type of intuitive hit that I'm getting that I might want to look into it? And if you do have an intuitive hit, maybe just ask, ask for clarification when they say something, because they might say something and you might think, that kind of sounded funny. And you could ask, can you tell me more about that? If you do have an inkling, therefore, they get a chance to explain themselves. You can kind of see if you're catching them in something. And you also get clarity so that you're not assuming things because you could be wrong. Any of us could be wrong. So those are some things that I could think of that I think are really helpful. And I do think directly asking is a really, really great way just to gauge their response.

Brittany Young 

Thank you. I knew that I liked this question, but I did not know how much I was gonna love this answer. like, not, like I always, every time I talk to you, I learn something new and incredible. And it reminded me of something actually that I've had conversations about with Erica and our group of friends about looking for places that our people over process, when you were talking about the liability piece. And hot tip for those that are out there, Nisha just gave you one of those questions you should ask at the end of the interview.

Nisha Mody 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm serious. I'm not just saying that, you know, and I know it could be scary maybe, but it's like if you don't do it now, you know, I almost kind of think it's like a romantic relationship. Like if you let things go in the beginning, they're just going to keep happening. And in a way, you know, I'm not saying that you deserve that or that, you know, that's something that you should deal with. But if you don't address it from the beginning, it's just going to keep happening, you know. So, yeah.

Brittany Young 

Yessss!

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Exactly.

And using that analogy of, you know, a relationship, if you are really exerting those boundaries and making it really clear where your heart, passion and priorities lie from the beginning, then  less fault and blame comes to you later when your workplace or whatever relationship it is seems surprised by that. If you've already let all of that be known that, that's not on you at that point. So I feel like any opportunity you get to say, know, this is why I'm sitting here, this is why I'm interviewing, this is why I'm interested in this position, and I want to see just as much if this is a match for me as you are trying to determine if I am a match for you. You had mentioned the four Rs of trauma-informed care. And maybe this is going to come up later. And if it is, please forgive me. But I'm just curious to hear more about the four Rs.

Nisha Mody 

Mm-hmm. That's okay. Yeah, actually, I'm just like, what are they? I'm just being honest. I think the first one is recognizing the symptoms and becoming aware.

One is reducing, I think. This is terrible, but hey guys, it's in my course. And this is something that I didn't come up with. through the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. And I use that as my guide in my course for the six principles of trauma-informed care as well as the four R's. The first is recognize, and last one is reduce retraumatization. And I think the ones in between are recognize,

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

No it's OK.

Nisha Mody

Reduce. I don't know, couple in between. I'll check it out. I don't know if you all Googled it, but.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

You know, we can, I mean, I did Google, but I don't see, I mean, I see realize, recognize, respond, and resist.

Nisha Mody

Realize, recognize, yeah, okay. So first one is realize. So realize that it's actually happening. That's like the awareness. Recognizing is, thank you, I need a little prompt there. Realizing and then recognizing the actual symptoms. So first is like, okay, what's going on here? Second is like, what are the symptoms? Third is responding to it, saying, hey, this is an issue. We need to do something about it. And the last one is then taking steps to reduce re-traumatization. Thank you, needed a little softball.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yeah, I know, of course. And like you do so much and I am actually enrolled in this course. And so that is that's also on me. Like what are the four Rs?

Brittany Young 

Yes.

Brittany Young 

I would hate to be fair to both of you like you know you can always forget stuff and it just doesn't...

Nisha Mody 

There's a lot of acronyms out there, like...

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

 100%. And like, I will never fault somebody for being like, I need to pause and like, make sure that what I'm going to share is the actual thing. I think maybe more people should take that approach.

Nisha Mody

Yeah, and I won't even ask you to edit that out because I think one thing that's really important about trauma-informed care is to humanize ourselves and to know that we're not perfect. And I think perfectionism in libraries is a big challenge. We edit ourselves, we shame ourselves for not being perfect, for not knowing something when we, our jobs are literally to reference and to refer out to others. yeah, like, you know, I'm not going to lie. Like right there, I felt like a little shame. I'm like, this is what I'm, quote unquote, an expert on but there's so much in it and like once you said it I like knew it right away but I think we have to just have compassion for how our brains work and there's a lot happening in the world and it's very easy to forget I mean I opened like Instagram the other day to do something and I'm like why did I open this app like I forgot it right away so it's just it's just how we're humaning these days, yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Absolutely. Yeah, that's my norm right now.

Brittany Young

Right? That's my norm too.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Some of the things that I have forgotten or have slipped my mind, it's just like so embarrassing. There's some like really big things that I'm like, how did I miss this? Or somebody will tell me something and like, okay, you know, you've been having some like cognitive struggles lately with remembering things. And I repeat it, I repeat it. I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna forget it. Like I've got this down five seconds later. I'm like, I should have written it. I should have written it down. Now I really appreciate that about you, Nisha.

Nisha Mody

Yeah, there's a lot that's coming at us. Yeah, my pleasure. They are. Mm-hmm.

Brittany Young 

And words are hard. Words are hard.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yeah, so speaking of hard things, what are survival tips and advice that you have for library workers currently employed in toxic work environments?

Nisha Mody

Yeah, that's a great question. I think lots of time the reason people feel they need to survive in library environments are because of external factors. I think so many of us go into libraries for, we go into libraries because we want to do the work. And I really think that library programs don't equip people enough, hopefully they're doing it more now, to know that. And I've had six careers. I just want to put that out there. I've worked in corporate, I've worked in education. I've worked in lots of different environments. I don't think any, it took me until I started working in libraries to realize that more than half your job is who you're working with and how processes go more than the actual role that you have if you do reference or know, technical services or whatever it is. And that there aren't many classes on that, you know, or we decenter it even as learners. And I think it's really, really important to know that because that is actually what's going to wear us down and burn us out. So some survival tips I have and advice is, first of all, boundaries. How are you spending your time, what are you taking on? And I say this especially for library workers because we are a feminized profession. We are helpers at heart. And I think that is like a better for better or worse type of thing that we take on a lot because we want to do all the things because we care. And that can come at the expense of caring for ourselves. And so what boundaries are you having with your schedule? 

When I started my own business, I know I have a certain privilege because I don't have a boss and I have a different schedule than I did when I was in libraries. I rarely take meetings on Mondays. mean, I have at times, but that's like 90, 95 % of the times I don't have meetings on Mondays so I could set up my week. That's a boundary I created for myself. And just because I have certain privileges, I could still violate that boundary if I wanted to, you know, like way more than I do. But I do not do that because I realize how much better my week is and how much better, how much more work I get done, how much more grounded I feel throughout the week when I give myself that day. Whether that means I just run a quick errand that day, whether that means like I set up my week, like, okay, what do I need to know? Maybe I need to email someone about this, or maybe I need to cancel this meeting or reschedule it because I'm looking at the week ahead. It just really, really grounds me. So I think having boundaries with your schedule and then also boundaries and schedule and also your commitments. I mean, committees, committees galore. That's a huge part of, know, libraries, whether you're an academic, whether you are in public, like there's just, and it's like not something you're paid extra for. 

I know a lot of it can go towards promotion and tenure and the different promotion processes people have, but I think it's important to really understand how much you want to take on. Because sometimes you also take so much on and you're not giving full effort for everything because you're taking too much on too. So I think how many commitments you have is really important. If it is for the promotion process, really look at what that process is, what it requires and see how you can maybe optimize it a little better. And of course, aligned with your interests, I think that's important. And I know everyone's promotion process is different based on their environment and employer, but really think about, OK, what do I really need? Talk to your supervisor about it if they are a supportive person, talk to other people you work with to really think like, how can I preserve myself? You are not your job. You can go home and not do work. It's OK. But I think that that's something that's hard for a lot of library workers that I've seen. 

So that's one way. I also think it's really, really important to tend to your body. I mean, I could say you have a therapist, et cetera. I also am a firm believer in somatic work. And when I say somatic, for those who aren't familiar with that term, it's connecting to your body, connecting to the sensations in your body. Because usually we feel icky and we avoid it, and that's just avoidance. I actually have this meme that I saw and I printed it out, actually printed it out, and I stuck it on my computer and it says, the magic you're looking for is in the work you are avoiding. And I can also, you can swap out work with pain, because if you address your pain, you're gonna be doing some work. I'm not saying that, I think there's a couple different types of discomfort and I always like to discern two types of discomfort with my clients and people I speak to. One is a discomfort that is harming you and one is a discomfort that's asking you to grow. 

If you are someone's making you feel uncomfortable or not asking for consent or something like that, that is not a discomfort that you have to sit with necessarily. You can make boundaries around that. You can say no. can whatever, report it, whatever you want to do. But the discomfort that asks you to grow. It's like I use like workout metaphors. It's like, yeah, after I work out, my muscles are sore, but it is because my muscles are growing or I could work out and have terrible form. And that's actually harming me. And I don't do anything about it. That's kind of like the two ways I talk about that. 

So I think like being with being able to discern which discomfort is this and then saying, OK, how can I sit with this and be with this like in my body? How can I feel into this? How can how do I feel towards my feelings, not just how do I feel? Because I think lots of times we shame our feelings. I shouldn't feel this way. I should be doing this. The shoulds really, really come up. And I think, like I said, we are in very feminized profession. 

And I think that women, especially with patriarchy, we are constantly told to accommodate to others, and to dismiss our own needs, to abandon ourselves. And the shoulds come with that. And I think it's really good to notice when we are like, minimizing our needs on a consistent basis where it is also when we dismiss our needs we dismiss our feelings and vice versa and I think in you know a very westernized world we don't tend to our feelings nearly enough. So I think tending to your feelings, especially when you're in survival mode and understanding going back to is this a trauma response? Is this your personality? What trauma responses are coming up for you as you're in this environment and how can you cultivate safety around that and definitely work with the professional with that, which is a lot of what I do. Did it at Meet Yourself. I do it in one on one settings. Therapists do that. 

Like, I mean, there's lots of different people who practice this so that you can have tools in your tool belt. Because I always say my job, and I don't think anyone's job, if you're a professional, if someone says that they do this, like I would say that's a red flag, is to say, you will never get triggered again after you learn something with me. We will get triggered and we should get triggered because getting triggered is a way for us to know if something is truly safe for our life or not. If we are in imminent danger, our fight flight is going to be good. Like if I live in LA, if there's an earthquake right now, I need to respond. I'm not here to be like, no, I don't want triggered. Like, no, I need to save my life, you know? But we end up over coupling our trauma responses from our youth, from intergenerational trauma, from the survival that maybe our parents or grandparents had to go through. 

We internalize it and over couple it with situations where they might not be life or death, but it feels like life or death. So really understanding the difference. Is this actually a life or death situation? Or is there a way I can feel safe right now? Is there a way so there's some way I can have some tools in my tool belt to access safety.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Thank you. That was such a powerful response. And I feel like you've shared so many actionable tools and tips for folks and some that I know I will both be looking at utilizing myself and some that I have already because I had the honor of having a one-on-one coaching session with you back when we first started to get to know each other. And so much of that sticks with me. 

But it's funny that you say that you've got that quote, that meme up on your wall because I, for the longest time, think it's here, it's on a sticky note, it must have fallen, had the discomfort one stuck right above my desk. And I think about it often, like, is this discomfort that is harming me or is this discomfort that is asking me to grow? And it has helped me navigate through some really difficult choices and decisions. And not only has it helped me personally kind of reflect on myself and situations in life, it's helped me in the work that I do, working with others and listening and opportunities where they are asking for feedback, where I'm thinking is what kind of harm is this? And that is just such a powerful piece of advice that has been given to me. And I thank you greatly for that. Cause I have to say, it's like in my top five of things. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down and reflect on that. So I really appreciate you sharing that.

Nisha Mody 

I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah, and thank you for sharing that with me because I think especially with the type of work you do and I think that this is a missing piece I see in a lot of DEI spaces is we're thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion of everybody else. But sometimes we don't always include ourselves and thinking about how am I actually well, you know, and what am I thinking? And, you know, from what you're saying, sounds like you bringing that into your spaces is also supporting the work that you're doing. And I think that that's such a critical missing piece, really a huge, huge reason of why I do what I do. So when you said that I got so excited just to know that that, if it's supporting one person and then it's spreading out to the initiatives that you're involved in, like, oh my gosh, it's just so, so beautiful to me. So thank you for sharing.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yes, and thank you for doing what you do.

Brittany Young 

I have been on the receiving end of Ericka sharing that quote in some of the difficult times that we have encountered together in our library career. And it's something that has been extremely, extremely important and helpful. I feel like we, like, we, like as a friend group, we've had to like remind each other of that somewhat often when those same problems continue to kind of like, you know, rear their heads. And speaking of that, what advice do you have for library workers seeking to heal after leaving a toxic library setting?

Nisha Mody 

Yeah, such a great question.

So I think one big thing is sometimes we think, okay, I'm going to leave this place. I'm going to feel so much better. But there's sometimes just like, I don't know, for lack of a better word, like a hangover you have after you leave a place. And I remember actually had a good friend from college who left her corporate job a couple of years ago. And she told me that it took her three months to get back to her factory settings. And I loved how she put that because it takes time to, almost like there's a grieving process. There's just like a normalization process that we have after we're leaving an environment we're used to. We think, okay, I'll be out of this. I'll be fine. So make space and know that that might happen, that it's possible and it's going to be different for everybody. Try to have some type of support system in place for after you leave as opposed to I'm just going to be home alone and hang out or just see my friends. And of course, seeing your friends, all these things are good things. Even alone time is good. But do you have, what is supporting you during that time? Do you have a sloth in your office like Brittany does, for example? Do you have, like truly, do you have what types of safety can you access in an intentional way so that you can feel supported? Are you talking to your therapist? Do you have like an exit plan to say like, okay, you know, I actually have a really good friend who went through this and I am going to set up daily check-ins with her, you know? I am going to take a one week trip away from here to a place that always makes me feel safe. Whatever you have access to, I'm going to make sure outside time really, really supports me. So every day I'm going to find a way to see if I can go outside or movement really helps me. 

So really create a plan as opposed to I'm just going to lay in my bed all day. I mean, again, you could do that rest, like of course rest, but also know that it's important to understand that there might be this hangover period for a few months. And, it's tricky when you might need to get a job right away, but do whatever you can to Put those support mechanisms in place for yourself and Also, I think it's a good time to reflect about what you want in a work environment and what's important to you and what's like non-negotiable Going back to the interview question, what will you now ask during an interview? What will you notice for a future employer? What will you do differently next time? 

And know, these things happen all the time, especially when you're new, maybe out of library school, you don't always know what to ask or what to do. And I think if you are someone who's new, it's really good to talk to some type of mentor about good questions or find out, because you just don't know until you don't know what you don't know, you know, like, and that's normal. But I think that that's really important to understand. 

And, you know, I just kind of want to like skip back question and add like a little another point that I forgot to mention which is also understanding what the promotion process is. Like are there 360 reviews? Like what is that process? Because sometimes people are also very traumatized by their promotion process. They were denied promotion. There was a part of the process where they felt that they were deserving of something, but they didn't get it. They did not get a raise that they were promised, things like that. So really having an understanding of that, I think is helpful and a really good question to ask. I think after you support yourself, I don't think right away you have to notice that. But I do think as you are kind of combining the last question on this one, have a little note for yourself about what you feel, what you notice in your body, what types of things like really bothered you. What are some things that you maybe want to learn through? 

Maybe it's like, I think I want to really have better skills with communication and conflict because I noticed that this is a challenge for me. You can also say that, mean, because I don't know, communication conflict, I'm just being real here. We're not going to avoid that in life. So I don't think it's like I'm going to do something that I can completely avoid conflict. I think that is a discomfort that's asking you to grow. And I'm not saying that you have to be perfect in it, but I do think having those skills, you know, just attuning to yourself, first of all, which is something I talk about a lot. 

Because I think often when we think of conflict, it's about what does other people have to do as opposed to what can you do? So, yeah, I think that's a little mishmash of both of those questions.

Brittany Young 

I remember learning when you were talking about the conflict piece in Meet Yourself. I'm trying to remember exactly what you said. But it had to do with people. It had to do with people. Like, they betrayed me. yes. 

Nisha Mody 

Yes, the faux feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we did a feelings and needs exercise. That's one of the modules. And I talk about, and I didn't come up with this.

I talk about faux feelings and I'm not saying that these are fake feelings, but sometimes when people want to identify their feelings, they might say that my feeling is I feel betrayed. But that's actually a judgment about what someone else did, not how you're feeling. And I'm not saying that they did or didn't do it. That's not the point. The point is you feel betrayed. So therefore you actually feel angry. You feel sad. You feel alone. You feel hurt. You know, that's how you're feeling. Not it doesn't have anything to do with what they did because what you're feeling is yours. And I think it's really important and actually quite beautiful to own that. Like this is what's coming up in my body. And yeah, so that's a really helpful tool to understand when something is, and again, I'm not saying it's not a real feeling. I'm not here to invalidate that, but to discern when is this a judgment about what someone else did versus what I'm just holding within myself.

Brittany Young 

I found that to be very helpful, especially with things I was dealing with at that time, but then also to reflect on it. Because I know in the toxic work environments that I have been in, I feel like I got burnout from it. It takes, the person who had only three, I say only three months, because that's still a long time, but I'm like, I wish it was.Just three months for me. But like back to the the just like the the feelings part of it. That's something that in the toxic work environment was like very no, no, you can't have feelings. So that's something that helped me in healing. So thank you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yeah, and I think hearing both of you right now, both Brittany bringing up that that faux feelings experience for you and also like tying that back to Nisha reminding folks that after leaving a toxic environment, whether it be like a work relationship, a personal relationship, there's going to be a semblance of like a process of grief, and a process of grieving. And you reminded us to make space for that. 

And I want to say even further, think, like prioritizing space for that. Because I can, I've seen this in other people, but I'm only going to speak from my perspectives because that's the only one that I can adequately and genuinely reflect right now. But I have gone from a toxic work environment into another toxic work environment, and it's so easy if I have not taken the time to reflect on what I had been through or to recognize my traumas for what they are, to re-traumatize myself in situations where maybe I am not facing the same traumas. I start seeing things in patterns and I relate it to unresolved trauma that I thought I had left behind because I had left that work environment. 

So not to say that there can't be similar or new kinds of trauma in a workplace or in a new relationship, but sometimes I find myself actually like kind of creating some challenges that could have been mitigated or avoided had I taken that time, had I taken that grieving process, so to speak, to really come to terms with what happened, how I feel about it, and what I need moving forward. So I really appreciate that reminder of taking that space, find your safety sloth, or your support sloth, whatever it is that you need to just kind of reset. Like it is, there's a little bit of like gaslighting and depending on your identities, I've experienced like race-lighting and being able to discern like, is this what is actually causing me harm or have I not resolved other feelings? And this is just, you know, reopening that wound.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah. Absolutely. So true. I mean, if you guys all want to like just eat chocolate and binge on TV for a couple of days before you reset, that's also fine. But I do think having some type of like, I mean, please, like I'm not here to like police that at all. And I do think it's really helpful. So thank you so much. Because, yeah, it goes back to what I was saying with like we can over couple things. And if we continue to over couple them, it's just going to keep the patterns keep repeating. I have a client that actually was in meet yourself as well. And I'm going to be starting some one on one coaching with her. And she had told me that things don't you know, and I've known her for a few years and I've seen such a big change in her which has just been like so amazing and One thing she said is that a lot of a lot of the interaction she's had with some of the same people she's able to come out of it a lot easier because she feels more comfortable in her own skin and I was like, my god again, I even felt tingles like thinking about it because I witnessed her for a few years Where it really really got to her like she couldn't even imagine atuning to herself because of what someone else did. 

But now she is able to not take it as personally because she is more tuned to what who she is and she likes who she is. And that's why I call my program meet yourself because the more you meet yourself, the less you are holding what is someone else's, the less you're taking responsibility for other people's feelings, taking responsibility for their trauma responses, like their trauma response, let that be theirs. You have your own, so mixing that up creates mess.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Nisha, you are a treasure

Nisha Mody 

Aww.

Brittany Young 

Yes, an absolute treasure. I just had to second it. I'm gonna like cry after every answer. Thanks, y'all.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yes, I know.

Nisha Mody 

Aww, you guys are the best. So sweet.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

So we've heard a lot about the Meet Yourself program. You also have your Trauma-Informed and Relational Care for Libraries program, which I am enrolled in and doing my best. I'm doing my absolute best to keep up.

Nisha Mody 

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Brittany Young

Can I just say real quick that we've been trying to like buddy system both of our work? Yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

We have an accountability app that's, know, even if it's five to 10 minutes, yep, yep, five to 10 minutes a day, whatever you can give, try to make intentional time for it. So in my experience, it's the trauma-informed generational care for libraries course. And in that course, there's a big emphasis on learning one's values and not only learning them, but returning to them often.

Can you tell us why personal values are so important in this work? What might happen when one's personal values do not align with the values of their employer?

Nisha Mody 

Yeah, this is a great question. And I do really think I'm just happy to toot my own horn here. This is something that differentiates what I talk about when I talk about trauma and firm care than when a lot of other people talk about. And I think especially for libraries, this is critical because we are such helpers and we want to do everything for everybody else and forget ourselves. I start with values because I think we often forget what's important to us and how when we are disappointed, we put it on everybody else when we realize it's not aligned with what matters to me and what matters to me is important and how I, what I value and what everyone values, I talk about how it's an anchor and a compass. It shows you what direction you want to go. And I start with that in the first module so that people really have an idea of who they are. So when they go through the course, they can return to that to say, okay, well, not how am I supposed to respond to this patron when they yell at me at the reference desk, but what's important to me in this situation? What is happening to me? How am I responding within my own body? Before I just respond to them in terms of being like this is what I'm supposed to say because I'm always very wary I can give scripts and you know one thing I am doing in this round is providing like one of the workshops I'm providing because it's self-paced, but I provide workshops throughout is creating your own personalized strips scripts because it's different for everybody and that will differ based on your values. So I'm really really excited. I haven't done that yet, and I'm really excited to do that.  

So I think that that is one thing that's important because we so quickly just go to, okay, what do I do? How do I help this person? How can I be trauma-informed? And I always talk about trauma-informed care starts with being trauma-informed with yourself. And there is a lot of overlap in the skills and things I teach between both meet yourself and trauma-informed care for libraries. But one is more library specific and the other one is more like interactive as well. But yeah, so when you're, I think first of all, what might happen when one's personal values don't align with the values of your employer? First of all, you know that they don't align.

Because I think lots of times you don't even know You just think this is a this is a good prestigious university good prestigious place I really like the benefits here, and I'm not saying those things don't matter We got to live like those things absolutely matter but I think if you know going in what their values are and what your values are you can know from the onset what you're going to do when they conflict you can have conversations with others saying like you know I'm noticing this is the organization's value, and I value this how do they complement each other? How do they conflict? Like let's have conversations about that. And I think those are actually really good things to talk about during meetings or having like a workshop or professional development. Because I think so often, you know, I didn't learn this. I'm sure, you know, lot of library folks out there know Deanna Jones and I know she didn't come up with this, but it's the first time I heard it, which is culture eats strategy for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And I think when you talk about your values, it is a cultural aspect. Because some people's values might be from their like culture that they're from, whether that culture is connected to race, class, ethnicity, whatever it might be, ability. There's so many different cultural components in the way that we're raised and intergenerationally as well. And that is going to impact whatever strategy, strategic plan you have. 

And I think so much we're thinking about what's the strategic plan. I almost kind of, I don't laugh at strategic plans, but sometimes I think when an organization's so focused on that, and lots of times they are because they have to show it to the university or to whoever the powers that be and I get that. But when they're not fixing the culture, it's just a piece of paper. You know, I'm just going to be honest. And it's not to me very trauma informed to have a strategic plan without also addressing the cultural components or including the cultural components as part of the strategic plan. I think that design is extremely important. And yeah, so and I think values go with that. feel like I went on some tangent here, but yeah, so that that's kind of where what I think is really, really important because your values come from a cultural lens. And I think when you could directly face that and address it, it becomes a conversation before it can become a conflict. It can be a conversation. And that's why I think it would be helpful from a professional development lens to really identify that from the onset. 

And, going back to the interview questions or finding out, you can ask someone during the interview, what are your values? What are this team's values? If you're interviewing with the people who are part of that specific team you're going to join, what do you value? What do you prioritize? What does the organization prioritize? And if you're brave, ask, when have you noticed conflict? What do you think is challenging when values conflict? I think that's actually a really good question to ask. I think that sometimes, nothing's ever going to be perfect in any organization and your relationship with it. I think that that's just what it is. I'm a business of one and sometimes I feel like I conflict with myself. You know, so like that will happen. But I do think having that understanding and knowing and acceptance and I'm not saying accepted to tolerate it and saying accepted like, OK, I know this is how it is. So therefore, what am I going to do in this situation? Like, what am I willing to compromise on? What am I not willing to compromise? Compromise or participate in? Really knowing that from the onset because you are have that awareness. So think even just knowing that they conflict before conflict actually comes to a head is important.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Thank you, I love that. I'm just writing down, not accepting to tolerate it, but accepting to know what you're gonna do about it. Like, where do you go from there once you have everything you need to make that decision? I also really love that analogy of an anchor and a compass, trying to think about and reflect on like what grounds me, but also like what guides me. And sometimes those are the same things, but sometimes they're different things too. Maybe I do need specific values to keep me grounded and in place. And sometimes I need to, I don't know, like maybe brave isn't the word, but I need to like push myself in other values that I have to help me grow or help me move forward or in a direction that better suits me.

Nisha Mody

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Absolutely. And I always tell people when they look at their values or try to determine their values, I have a workbook for it. I'm happy to give you a link for that if you want to drop that in the description and show notes as well is to pick a stretch value when that you want to stretch into something that you are feeling and also be aware that your comp, your values might conflict themselves depending on a situation and you might not be able to meet all your values in every moment. That's OK. That is just life. Like it's not going to be perfect. 

And when you are aware ofy ou could say, okay, these two conflict, like what matters to me now? What is the intention of this thing I'm doing? And if that is my intention, which values do I have to pay attention to more or anchor in more? But I really like what you said about how the anchor and the compass, it might kind of feel different sometimes. Yeah, I've always kind of seen it as like: anchor, compass, like you ground yourself and then you go in that direction. And I see that there could be like different integrations with how that looks like.

Brittany Young 

This is, it's fascinating to me because I've done like value exercises multiple times in my life. And when I did it with you, there was like a fairly large change from where I was at years ago, which was, was cool to see and share with people. And I've had, at this point now, I've had an experience where my values did not align. And now I'm like thinking back on like, like, just with what like you've taught me and what you've said in even just in this podcast. I'm like thinking thinking back on it not to like shame myself, but like, okay, how could I maybe handle that different in the future with what like Erica said about like, what action are you gonna take?

Nisha Mody

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Brittany Young 

And so that's, I'm to be thinking about this. And then now I feel very fortunate because I'm at an employer while my values may not like completely align, we can have conversations about it. And I've been able to see examples of them living their values, which I, like it's, if I saw examples in the past, it was negative, unfortunately, often. And now I've been able to see positive. And so that's a plus side of that.

Nisha Mody

Beautiful. I'm so happy for that.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

I also want to interject really fast, Brittany, and say thank you. I will always say thank you for citing and crediting something that I said, but I really just took that from Nisha and reiterated her response. So, yes.

Nisha Mody 

Good. I like this. It's a good ecosystem. It's beautiful. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Brittany Young 

This is how we learn, right?

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yes, yes. And this is how we all should learn. We learn from each other. We become better and we grow together and with each other.

Nisha Mody 

Absolutely. Yeah, and I mean, I didn't come up with ever. Like I said, don't like everything comes from a teacher. That's I think about like from libraries, you know, like the site web of citations, like, you know, it all there's a massive web. And I think it's important that we credit our teachers and also the whole point is to learn from each other.

Brittany Young

Yes. speaking of teachers, on a recent podcast guest, Kaetrina Davis Kendrick, who we love, right? She spoke with us about the low morale experience in libraries. If you haven't listened to the episode, peeps, you should listen to it. And how we might heal from those experiences as a community. Your work is connected in a lot of ways with Kaetrina's. We asked Kaetrina a similar question to this next one that I'm going to ask you. How do you envision the future of librarianship in terms of the imperatives of trauma-informed care and fostering inclusive workplace cultures?

Nisha Mody

Yeah, yeah, great question. I envision the imperativeness. I mean, I do think it's imperative. I wouldn't be doing the work if I didn't think it was. And I think it's more imperative than we think because of those cultural aspects that will persist until we disrupt. And disrupting that really means, I mean, and I think what the challenging part of this is that, connecting to the angry feeling in your chest seems like that's what you do with your therapist, not what you bring into the workplace. And I always talk about how the personal is professional. Like I will die on that hill. Like I'm not saying you have to bring all of your personal stuff and whatever into work, but, did we not choose professions because we personally like them? Do we not do this work because it's a personal thing? And so I think that, or do we not, we come from home to go to work, if you go into a workplace, or if you work from home, then you're even more in your personal space and doing work, right? So I think it's just kind of silly to like separate them. There is at minimum a gray area. 

And I think that that's why it is imperative because we are whole people doing work and it's imperative to address how one impacts the other and how that impacts different relationships because this is our livelihoods. This is what keeps us going every day. This is what gives us benefits, you know, in order to be healthy. This is what, you know, impacts our moods and relationships. I mean, I can't tell you how many times like relationships are impacted by people's work lives. So it's the professional also personal, you know? So I envision the future of librarianship and trauma-informed care to be very inclusive of it, to integrate it into policy, to integrate it into a meeting. You know, Brittany, as you know, I start every one of our meet yourself with a moment to settle in. What if we started a meeting like that? You know, what if you just said, hey, even if it was like, I'm going to put in a two minute timer and everyone just feel free to close your eyes and or just however you want to meditate, just take a moment for yourself. What would be different in that meeting? Even if it was for one person, maybe they would respond differently. Maybe they would think differently about an agenda item. I mean, so much can change. 

And that is being trauma-informed with yourself, knowing that I am human. Maybe I was just rushing from another meeting, so my heart rate is increased. So I'm going to like tend to myself so I don't bring the annoying thing that that person said in that other meeting into this meeting where they have nothing to do with it. And it's hard not to do that. And I think we've all done it. I've done it. So that to me is trauma informed care. And so I really do think it is extremely imperative. And I also think that fosters inclusive workplaces because it gives us a moment to know what's happening with ourselves, to regard that something is happening with somebody else, to regard that someone else who might have a marginalized identity on top of what's happening with them might feel like they belong even less in a space. So that how can we what can we do even more to cultivate safety?

 I mean, it truly is having that empathy and that spaciousness to have the empathy, because I think a lot of times there's empathic people who, you know, harm and it's not intentional. But that gives them the space to do it. Being trauma informed. Think the small and I, you know, that's why I when I bring up trauma informed care and in the course, I talk about starting with low stakes situations. We don't have to start with like an active shooter. Like, let's not start there. Let's start because that, you know, not yet. It's not happening all the time every day, right? But I'm not making light of that, but I'm just, you know, being real right now. But but what do you do every day almost go to a meeting, you know, like, so how can you make running a meeting trauma informed? And so that is the example I give for everyone to think how is, how can you make running a meeting more trauma-informed? 

Maybe it is starting with a moment to settle in. Maybe it is as individuals just noticing where are the exits in this space. If I feel unsafe, I know where they are. I know I have choices because empowerment voice and choice is a principle of trauma-informed care. So sometimes we feel like we don't have choices, but what if my choice is I'm going to get up and go to the bathroom because this person said this thing, you know, because I need an exit strategy and I don't want to respond right now. So that's why I think this is imperative because that impacts culture. And if you have a strategic plan and you believe that culture impacts each strategy, then you will care about this. So I think it's extremely imperative.

 And yes, I am biased. But the reason I do this work is because I believe that, not just because, I mean, yes, I'm always happy for more work. I'm just being honest because I have my own business, but like I am biased in that way because I really do believe anytime. The reason I left libraries is because I kept thinking about this stuff more than library work because I realized that this is the underlying layer that none of us are addressing.

Brittany Young

I, so Nisha, we've talked about before when we've been like in the meet yourself before where there's sometimes there's just like these things where I'm like, are you magic? And I just had this moment and Erica might too, because Erica, she mentioned like three things in a specific situation that I'll talk to you about later that like we're in that situation. And I'm like, what? It involved, it literally involved me getting up and walking to the bathroom.

Nisha Mody 

Mmm.

Brittany Young

for a little while. I'm like, whoa. So that was, that was, it was, it's empowering because a lot of times I, I pay too much attention to what society says is quote unquote professional. And so I leave the personal out when like intuitively having that personal piece would actually make things better and it's going to help the people that I actually want to help. So thank you for saying all of that.

Nisha Mody 

Absolutely. And I think that we can often like in that instance think like, I couldn't handle that situation. I had to go to the bathroom and shame ourselves as opposed to, oh, I just took a resource and tool that I have and I used it so that I could show up better for my job and for the people I work with. Even if you don't like that person, at least you're still showing, you know what I mean? I'm serious. Like you might not like that person, but you left because yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's be real here. 

Ericka Brunson Rochette

Sometimes especially because you don't like that person.

Brittany Young 

Hahaha!

Nisha Mody

So I think also like not being hard on yourself that you used a tool which is I laugh at that because I'm like that we do that I know we do that as opposed like because we think like oh I shouldn't be triggered this shouldn't bother me it's like it did bother you and you're a human and that's okay so now what now you used a tool instead of like something else that you know would just kind of domino and whatever you know so yeah

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Mm-hmm. I often have to remind myself that as a human being I have control over two things and that's like my how I act and like my reactions to things and so I have had to I even in my personal life I just did so like this last weekend where something really upset me I think the situation upset me but it also kind of reopened some other past traumas of things that I constantly working on. And so I chose to remove myself and I did it a really quiet way, which I think has come with maturity and age. There are definitely times in my past where I'm like, well, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go to bed. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna take a moment and it's, I'm gonna announce like my departure. I was like, I just need to, I need to just go set aside. Cause I felt my palms getting sweaty. I felt you know, this pressure on my chest and I'm scared I'm going to say something or I'm going to react in a way that does not necessarily meet the situation and it's not going to help or benefit what's happening. So having those tactics and those tools available to you both like in workplaces, but also in your personal life is something that I feel like should not come with shame. And I know sometimes it's easier said than done. But come with just reminders of how far as humans and how much we have just grown in our lives and in our experiences that we can keep adding those tools to our tool belt and each time get a little bit better and grow a little bit more.

If you could share Nisha one shift in mindset that you wish that every library director or manager would adopt around trauma informed leadership, what would it be?

Nisha Mody

This question's so juicy. I think it is less about what are they doing? I mean, it is absolutely about cultivating safety. I'll never like say it's not, but how are they self-reflecting on themselves and their power-over dynamic? Because even if they don't want to have a power over dynamic, they have power over in a formalized way to promote someone, to report someone, to even in a weekly or bi-weekly meeting, one-on-one, to just how are you responding? So to really personally reflect on, this is something I actually have to do with my clients. I notice have to notice myself, like, okay, what is this person saying that's triggering me? And if that’s triggering me,  what's that about? Because I mean, I'm not even going say 99 times out of 100, 100 times out of 100. There's nothing unsafe happening. My life is not under threat. But they might be triggering something in me that is making me respond in a way to them. And so let me look into that.

So I can show up for myself a little more, and tend to myself, and not project my trauma response onto them unintentionally. Because it usually is very unintentional, very subconscious. Has to do with how we're raised, identity markers, what we've even seen, the models we've had of power over. And we...all live and grew up around carceral environments, whether that's being failed in a class, actual prison systems, being penalized for your behavior. And I have a teacher who talks about how all behavior is driven by unmet needs. And I think that knowing that for the people you supervise and for yourself is so, so important. And I know that I'm a better practitioner and coach when I notice. Okay, what's bothering me about this? You know, why?

Why am I getting annoyed about this? And that doesn't mean that I can't be annoyed, but I also want to make sure that I'm not projecting something onto my clients that isn't for them to hold, especially when so many people come to me because they hold so many, what's everybody else's, you know? And I'm not going to be perfect. I try to be as accountable as possible. And I have like, go back to my clients, like, you know what? I noticed I did this and I just want to take accountability for it. I'm not perfect. you know, if you like, if there's anything I could do to repair or if there's anything else you want to talk to me about it like I'm here I I have had to do that a couple times just for my own it's not like because they came to me and said it but just because I it's important for me to take that accountability and one thing I don't know if either of you heard me have heard me say this I think I do mention in the course and I don't know if I mentioned it and meet yourself Brittany but accountability but there's I think one language that we often hear about accountability is that we have to hold other people accountable and I have another teacher when I mentioned this who said you cannot hold other people accountable you can give them consequences. We have to take accountability. 

And if you think about it in a carceral sense, for example, you can give consequences to someone, but that person has to take accountability if they have actually caused harm. And now there's also, if you think about like someone who like is in has a federal charge because they had weed, maybe they're not going to quote unquote rehabilitate because what they did wasn't wrong. know, like it's not or it's not like that harmful, but systemically, they have been punished. So these are things like maybe they don't have any accountability to take like in my opinion. I don't think they do. But, you know, like maybe it's more that they were just in the wrong place, the wrong time, and they were the wrong race, you know, and in a lower class system or, you know, in a lower class neighborhood or whatever it might be where it is systemically policed. You know what I mean? So who needs to be accountable there? To me, the systems have to be accountable, not the person.

So I think that it's really important to think about accountability in that way. And when you have power over how much what is your own personal taking accountability system? Not to the point where you're constantly like feeling if you feel like the constant need to apologize. One, I think that might be a trauma response feeling the need to apologize for everything. And two, or you're causing lots of harm all the time. And, you know, maybe that's not maybe you shouldn't be a supervisor. 

And the last thing I'll say about this and I mean, I don't want that. I mean, maybe maybe not. Or maybe you should wait until you have some built some work skills before you continue to harm people. And I think this is very real and I want to name this is that sometimes people become supervisors because that's the only way they'll make more money, not because they want to supervise. And I understand that from a livelihood perspective. 

And I really invite people to think about that before entering a workplace where if you don't want to be in that position to understand how might that impact the whole culture of the team that you run. Really consider that before you say this is the only way I'm going to make more money. Because you know, it's unfortunate that that's the case. I wish it wasn't. But I do think it's something that we should name and understand as leaders that are you just doing this for money or also for your ego? If it's just for your ego, that's also something to think about. When I became a library director at UCLA, yeah, my ego was happy. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but is that what's going to lead me all the time? I'm the boss, I'm the director, or is it more, okay, I have a responsibility now? With responsibility comes accountability. You can pat yourself on your back. I'm not saying don't celebrate a promotion or be happy that you are in a specific position, but with power comes responsibility, doesn't someone say that? So yeah, someone said that. So yeah.

Brittany Young

Wasn’t that Spiderman’s uncle?

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

I'm sure I read that in a book somewhere.

Brittany Young

Yeah, I'm sure someone said that somewhere. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for saying all of that. Hopefully they will hear it because it's coming from you and you're magic.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah. I hope so.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

And I really, I really hope that they take to heart that that time to reflect, because I think just in the world we live in, in this economy, sometimes you do need to find those jobs that support your livelihood. And that's going to look like a job that's going to pay you what you need to be paid to live in a certain area that you need to survive and have those like basic life skills and life needs. But just tying it back to the idea of like consequences versus like accountability as a personal action. What consequences come from accepting a job that maybe you do not have the skills for, that you are maybe not ready for, don't have the interest in managing, but you have the interest in what the position pays, there will be consequences. And so like you mentioned, they're going to have to take accountability, but they're going to have to do that by looking at what is the impact of stepping into a position that maybe they are not prepared for.

Nisha Mody 

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My leadership training would not just be about like...what your communication skills are, because I do think that that's important. But I think sometimes that could be very surface level. Like this is just what you're saying, but it's like, why are you here? That's my leadership training. Why do you want to be a leader? Like who are your examples of leaders? Like what are you hoping to do? Like I would want to like get deep with someone to understand that, because that underlying layer is always going to impact every single thing they do. Then we could talk about communication, you know? But yeah, I think that that's a really important question.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Yeah, I love that. Like, who are your examples of leaders? That tells so much, I feel like.

Brittany Young

I like that better than what is your leadership style? It's a way better question.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.

Brittany Young

Okay, so if you were someone like myself that takes your Meet Yourself course, you would get hands-on skill building in the synchronous or live sessions. Can you share with us either one example of an exercise and then like how or why that helps? I know you've shared some already, so like you know if you want to revisit that's fine too.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah, yeah, no, actually do want to revisit the feelings and needs exercise because I think, I know it sounds so silly. What do you feel? What do you need? But anytime I've done several workshops, I'm actually doing one tomorrow or actually coming next week. I'm doing a part one tomorrow. I kind of combine workshops with I start with power over versus power with as workshop one and workshop two is identifying your feelings and needs. 

And I think it's really important to identify your feelings and needs. And any time I've done that workshop, multiple people are just like mind blown about how when they consider what they're really feeling in a moment they're surprised sometimes at what's coming up for them and then when they look at what they need they learn something about themselves that they don't know because in every moment there's something that we're feeling and needing and we can't keep track of that all day but if we do isolate it and we just take a moment to think about it it is so powerful and I've done this like there's been times I'm like journaling and I'm like angry and I'm like I have to go I have these cards that I give to my long-term clients that are feelings and needs cards and formy workshops, have like a Google Doc with the list of them, and I did it for Meet Yourself as well, where I have the list of feelings and needs and I have people pick it based on like maybe a challenging situation that's coming up for them. And it sparks really great conversation and it helps people understand and discern between those faux feelings and also understand that if they are centering those faux feelings versus getting down to like what's happening within them, they really start meeting themselves because they're getting honest with themselves. And there's a vulnerability required in that. 

And I think it's really hard from a Western perspective to be vulnerable. It feels very unsafe because we're exposing ourselves. But unless we open up to ourselves and love from a loving like turning towards ourselves with love. There's always gonna be a mask that we're wearing. And I think that, you know, and that puts us out of integrity. And I think one outcome I've noticed a lot with my clients after they've worked with me is they feel so much more integrity because they're honest with themselves about what is actually coming up for them. And they are no longer willing to be out of integrity in a situation by keeping that mask on.

Brittany Young 

I was just talking about masks the other day. And now, yeah, I'm going to be revisiting the part about wearing a mask and losing the integrity. And obviously, like, there's times you wear a mask and, like, that's what you need to do in that setting. But...

Nisha Mody

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm not here to say never do that. Sometimes you have to do it for survival Maybe you like I need to keep my job and I'm gonna have to be fake right now like I get it like you do you do you you do what you need to do? But I think if that happens when you go home What are ways some ways you can connect with yourself or grieve that situation like or are you just avoiding it being like whatever? Let's just have dinner. I don't want to think about this. Like I think there's a there's a there's a pause to take there for yourself to Say to yourself. Okay, this happened. Let me be honest with myself and I wish I could have done this but I know that there's maybe this other value that I have to center right now that conflicts with my truth and you know how can I be still supported right now who is someone safe I could talk to. So I'm not here to say always you know that's that's the only answer the only way for you to operate I'm saying that it it feels really good when you can and feel safe to do it and there are times where you have to choose yeah so thank you for bringing that up yeah

Brittany Young 

It comes just like full circle.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yeah, sorry, I'm just thinking about all of this. There's just been so much wonderful advice and perspective shared. And I know that for myself with like masking and like code switching and deauthenticating, I am just thinking about heaviness that you mentioned. Like when you go and you sometimes just have to sit with that and I have to feel like what did I have to give up of myself to fit into this society, to this structure, to this work culture that should be accepting of who I am and my whole self. But I do think that goes back to looking at and understanding your values and then deciding, okay, so now I know, and am I choosing to stay here? Am I choosing to navigate around this? Am I choosing to take it on directly and share where I'm at or maybe this, you know, just isn't the right fit for me. So yeah, bringing it back to those values.

Nisha Mody

Absolutely. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

We have one last question for you, Nisha. And yeah, thank you. I know we have had plentiful conversation and maybe have gone over what we expected, but I just feel like you are just so full of wisdom and thoughtfulness and just great ways at looking at things to really help folks like key in on themselves and what it is that they need to be joyful. What it is that they need to feel safe and that is just such a gift. And so now we're gonna ask just like a little bit more of you. What suggestions do you have for library workers when it comes to caring for themselves and ensuring their cup is full enough to serve others, especially in light of political turmoil and attacks on libraries and library workers that we've been facing and seeing?

Nisha Mody 

Yes, there is a lot that's happening. I think, I mean, I've mentioned a lot of stuff throughout this podcast about how to take care of yourself. One thing that I haven't talked about is feeling like you're never doing enough, feeling like I could be doing so much more work to support library workers, to support disenfranchised people. But at the same time, I'm so overburdened. There are library cuts, there are book bans, there are things happening that are a literal direct attack on free speech, on just intellectual diversity, things like that. It's hard to not take that personally. And also when...it is your identity potentially under attack. So I think for that, it's really and I have this in the course as well, the trauma and form library course is like, what is mine to do? Because I think when we keep trying to do every single little thing, we burn ourselves out and we our cup is just like not even empty. It's just like smashed by a garbage compactor. You know what I mean? It's just like not. It's not good. It does not look cute. So I think keeping our cup full means like, what is mine to do right now? What is my role? I mean, I have fallen into that. And then at the end of 2024, I had done a lot of fundraising and everything towards mutual aid, et cetera. And I realized it was taking away from a lot of priorities in my business and that my business is really a lot, does a lot to support people, but I still felt like it wasn't enough.

And I was like, am not going to be able to run any mutual aid. I will happily share things with people. I will happily do that, but I'm not going to be able to do that. And it was hard. But I also realized, I think one language that I hear often, and I've said myself, and I hear a lot amongst library workers, and again, this goes back to being a feminized professionalist, I feel bad. I feel bad. And that is connected with guilt. And the purpose of guilt is to repair if you've actually done something wrong.

Oftentimes feeling bad is because we are conditioned to feel bad because of gender. Like I'm not doing enough. Like is it conditioning or is it if you actually did you actually cause harm? Like, you know, did you throw someone under the bus? Did you do something guilty is a very guilt is a very useful emotion. It's a very important emotion to make sure that we repair. But it gets once again over coupled with our conditioning going back to kind of what I was saying, like, are you safe or not? Is your actual life under threat? We think I'm such a bad person. It's not that I made a mistake. I am a mistake, you know, and that kind of goes along with feeling bad. And that completely our cup goes to that garbage compactor phase. And what does it look like to not feel bad about centering your needs and feeling like, one of my teachers also said this, that what you do may not be sufficient, but it is necessary. And that was really, really helpful for me because, okay, I, as a one individual person, I'm not going to save libraries alone. And, you know, one thing, the beautiful that you just reflected on earlier, Erica, is how you've used the things that I've shared with you, Brittany, you too. And then you bring that to your meetings and initiatives. And here I am thinking, I'm not doing enough, but that web is spreading. It's it is it's just coming from me. And then that and that's just one route. If you think about it.

You know when you really think about root networks like but no one roots gonna connect to another like it will go around so the more you are concentrating on that and if you don't if you keep doing too many things you're not gonna be able to really fully dedicate and commit to doing that so I really do think a lot of it comes from remembering that maybe it's not sufficient but it's necessary and what is yours to do and what isn't yours to do and what what and how is that like literally burning you out to the point where you're going to not be able to do anything and really feel useless and terrible, you know, and require lots of rest. I mean, I can tell you, you know, and I'm not going to name, obviously, but there I know several people, several library workers who've gone to the hospital because they are so stressed and burnt out. I see you both nodding. People who are listening, we are all nodding because of how much stress that they hold from the workplace. 

And, you know, I left libraries in 2021, you know, so much, I mean, I mean, it's just in 2025. It has been wild. You know, I can't believe we're only nine months through the year. And I can't imagine, I don't work in a library setting, but I can't imagine what that's like. How are you really knowing what's yours to do and knowing that it's enough and you are enough? And how can that actually help you show up for people more than feeling terrible about yourself? Because that usually is, I mean, I don't think anyone, I don't really think anything useful comes out of that. I know from personal experience, nothing useful comes out of that. So yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Well, thank you. I'm just like making a mental note to schedule time to sob later. I just feel like so much. I just felt very seen. And in that, in your response to that question, I also have created a new sticky note to go next to the one that I will find under my desk. But I wrote down, so for those listening, what is mine to do? And I'm gonna keep this near my computer so every day that I'm answering emails, that I'm scheduling meetings, that I'm trying to figure out what are my priorities for the day, for the week, for the month, for the hour. Sometimes I feel like, what am I doing in the next five minutes? What can I give energy to? So many times I feel like the answer is everything. You have to prioritize everything, and if everything's a priority, then nothing's a priority. So really taking that time to think of, you know, what is mine to hold right now? Like I can't fix everything. We should all know that inherently, I think. But right now when things feel really heavy and like, it's almost like it's all crashing down around us and like, it feels like you're the only one who can catch the things falling. You're the only one who can stand them back up. You're the only one who can get people out of there. All of these things, like that's not, it's not a physical possibility for one person to fix everything.

Nisha Mody 

No.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

So what is within the realm of my ability to fix or to work towards fixing? Maybe if it's that one piece, you know, it might not be sufficient, but it's necessary. I love that.

Brittany Young

That's the quote that I'm gonna that I'm gonna write down is the it may not be sufficient but it's necessary so Ericka if I'm getting in headspace you got to be like hey don't forget this, look at your sticky note.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Look at those sticky notes.

Brittany Young

I love that you said that like we should know it inherently because I don’t know about you, but when I like go against that I do feel bead because like I feel like inherently I do know but like this software is trying this virus in my computer software of a brain is like trying to override my system. So I'm gonna pay attention to that feeling in my body now.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Mm-hmm.

Nisha Mody

Yes, yes. And I want to just like add on really quickly that one thing I think is interesting and I found it a really interesting transition for myself being in libraries and having my own business is none of us are here for everybody. And I think one challenge with libraries is that I think libraries often want to be everything for everyone because especially public libraries, it is trying to be everything for everyone like you're trying to provide all the resources and I think it's wonderful and beautiful. And there are still limitations. And I think it's really hard.

The actual building and profession where we're trying to do is a lot for everyone. Meet the needs of people who are on-house, meet the needs of people who are immigrants, meet the needs of people who are children, adults, learners, like ESL, whatever it might be, that we might still have limitations and it's okay that we are not for everybody and you will do your best and you have to prioritize. When I try to be for everyone in my work, if I market to every single person, I'm not gonna get work.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Mm-hmm.

Nisha Mody 

You know, I'm very clear that like.You know, like for Meet Yourself, iit is not open to men. You know, like I'm like, sorry, you know, you can come to my free workshops. You could do one-on-one with me. That is what I can do, but it's not open to men. Cause I want to cultivate safety for people who have been gravely impacted by patriarchy, patriarchy. And that is okay. It is okay for you to not be for everybody. And that is also something it's okay for a library to not be for everybody. I know that might sound really, that might be a hot take. Feel free to discuss, feel free to spread that. Yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

I'm on your side of the hot take, so...

Nisha Mody 

Like, it's okay if you can't do it all because I think that conflict, that tension's there, and I don't really hear people talking about it much, like with that, so yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Well, you know, like the libraries are for everyone. Like the merch that has come out and like the, there are like the signage and the shirts and all of that. I feel like the first time I saw it and I was very much so in like, libraries are not neutral, head space. And like, I do think that's part of the conversation, but really when you think about if libraries are for everyone, then libraries are really for no one. Cause like there are people who are just, vehementally, that's not the right, I don't know, there are words that I've only read. But you know, like there are people that are just like against libraries being for some groups or for welcoming in immigrants into the library or putting on services. I mean, there's constant conflict every day of people who have different ideals and different morals and different values. And their idea of a library does not look the same as their neighbor's idea of a library, does not look the same as somebody who is facing like housing and food insecurity. And there is no way that you're going to be able to serve anyone adequately if you are trying to serve everyone. Because sometimes those things are working against themselves, which are working against your mission.

Nisha Mody 

Absolutely. if you know, taking that from a systemic perspective to like, what are the power dynamics here and how is that in conflict with me trying to be for everybody too? yeah.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette 

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Brittany Young

For some reason it reminds me of Forrest Gump getting on the bus and like everybody who walks by is like, this seat's taken. When I saw that I was like, I don't want to sit with you if you don't want me to sit with you. And I kind of that way about like, like this whole conversation has made me feel that way about libraries. Cause you know, we talk about like, if you don't like the book, then don't read it. If you don't like the library, then don't go to it.

Nisha Mody 

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I love that metaphor, that analogy. Yeah, if you don't want to be around me or you don't want to be with me, then why do I want to be with you? Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany Young

Right. It also reminds me of your bus exercise, but that's a, that's a whole, that's a whole.

Nisha Mody

Oh, yes. I was thinking about bringing that up for so just so everyone knows, I have a meet yourself on the bus exercise. So meet yourself is starting again in a couple of weeks on October 15th this airs before then. But definitely get on my email list so you'll get like notifications because I'll be doing it at least two or three times a year. My plan is to do that. So but yeah, I was thinking about that one. I'm like, I feel like that was kind of like honestly kind of longer to explain. But but I also really think feelings and needs are so foundational, which is why I brought that up. I feel like it's foundational to even meeting yourself on the bus. yeah, yeah, FYI. Temptation.

Brittany Young

You like, you teased. Just know there's a fun bus exercise.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

There are, there's even more. There's even more where that came from.

Brittany Young

There is! And like, everybody that listens to this episode, y'all getting a whole free course from Nisha right here. And if you think that this was everything, it's not even... We barely chipped through the first layer.

Nisha Mody 

I know. So true. So true. There's so much. But yeah, thank you both so much. This has been such an amazing conversation and you guys are just so wonderful to talk to and I'm happy to know you.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Yes, very much the same. And I feel like every time we have the pleasure of speaking, I learned so much. I reflect so much. And it's just, it's an ongoing thing. You know, I can reflect in the moment, but that later that night or two days later or three weeks later, a couple months later, I'm like, remember that thing that Nisha shared? Or do you remember that like drop of wisdom that was, you know, so beautifully shared with you? Like remember to carry that, to also pass it on though, and I just appreciate having networks of people that are truly trying to be better and trying to incite good change. Just thank you for sharing that with us.

Nisha Mody 

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you both.

Brittany Young

Yes. We have just, we have a text chain in which fairly often, remember that thing that Nisha said? Or Nisha said this cool thing and I've had this epiphany. I feel like Ericka started it. It's all your fault.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

I'm just thankful that you agreed to be on the podcast and now we can share those things with everyone. And so for our listeners, we will also include in the details. So if you're listening to this as it's launched or in the year that it has been launched, the OLA EDI and Anti-Racism Committee, which is the folks that put on this podcast, we also have professional development scholarships available. And so we were, we're going to link in the description to those applications. And a lot of the programs that Nisha has talked about today falls under the purview of what the scope of those scholarships are. 

So please, if anyone is interested in cost as a barrier, and do you want to explore more, look into that. And it doesn't just, it's not just relegated to Nisha's offerings, any professional development offering that will help you with this kind of work, help you battle oppression in your library spaces, communities, services. All of that is available through that application. So thank you to our listeners. Thank you, Brittany, for being a co-host in this episode. And thank you, thank you, thank you, Nisha, for joining us today. This has just been so wonderful.

Nisha Mody

My pleasure, thank you both again.

Brittany Young

Ditto. Thank you so much. Hearts.

Ericka Brunson-Rochette

Hearts all around.

(Voiceover)
This project was made possible in part by the Institute of Museum and Library Services through the Library Services and Technology Act, administered by the State Library of Oregon. 

Este proyecto ha sido posible en parte por el Instituto de Servicios de Museos y Bibliotecas a través de la Ley de Servicios de Biblioteca y Tecnológia (LSTA), administrada por la Biblioteca Estado de Oregón.

(Voiceover)

We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state with the intent to exclude African-American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon. 

We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade and forced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well. 

(Outro Music Playing)