Episode 45: Beyond the Classroom: How a PE Teacher Became a Transformational Leader with Dr. Donovan Smalls II

What if the best instructional leadership doesn’t start with a rubric but with people? We sit down with Dr. Donovan Smalls II to unpack how a former PE teacher and college professor became an assistant principal known for calm under pressure, disciplined time management, and a people-first approach that lifts instruction across a building.

We dig into the pivotal COVID moment that rerouted his career and why choosing to be the solution is the first real test of leadership. Donovan shares how he architects his day—blocking morning walkthroughs, staying visible, and using curriculum work when culture isn’t ready for frequent drop-ins so instruction stays a priority despite bus duty, discipline, and the inbox. He offers candid stories about navigating heated parent meetings with poise, setting boundaries with grace, and keeping the focus on all students, not just the loudest requests. The result is a roadmap for aspiring leaders who want to manage their time, build trust with teachers, and protect the learning environment with emotional intelligence.

We also explore his bestselling book, Beyond the Classroom, and why leading people and organizations must come before leading instruction. Donovan explains how the leadership interview differs from the teacher interview, and how to tell a compelling leadership story that lands the job and sets you up to lead from day one. Along the way, we trade practical examples of classroom visibility that teachers and students actually enjoy, plus the power of national networking to expand your toolkit and confidence. If you’re aiming for assistant principal or principal roles or looking to level up where you are—you’ll find concrete tactics and encouraging perspective you can use this week.

Connect with Dr. Donovan Smalls II:

Website: https://www.donovansmalls2.com/

Instagram: @donovansmalls2

TikTok: @donovansmalls2

Threads: @donovansmalls2

X: @DonovanSmalls2

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovansmalls2/

Beyond the Classroom: Helping Aspiring School Leaders Navigate Interpersonal & Organizational Complexities for Greater Instructional Impact (Amazon)

The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Youtube)

The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Apple Podcast)

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Chapters

• 0:00 Guest Intro & Background
• 3:32 From Coaching to Teaching
• 4:59 Student-First Mindset in Leadership
• 7:24 COVID Pivot to Administration
• 11:18 Broadening Impact Beyond One Classroom
• 14:07 Time Management as a Self-Starter
• 17:39 Walkthroughs, Visibility, and Trust
• 22:42 Emotional Intelligence Under Pressure
• 28:26 Podcasting and Coaching Aspiring Leaders
• 32:59 Work–Life Balance and Sustainable Output
• 37:04 Nationwide Networking and PD
• 40:34 Advice for Aspiring Principals
• 44:23 Finding Your Level: Elem, MS, HS
• 47:27 Handling Public Perception and Feedback
• 50:28 Why the Work Matters: Centering Kids
• 53:19 Book, Podcast, and How to Connect

Transcript

Principal JL: 1:02

Today I'm very excited to have on the show Dr. Donovan Smalls II. Donovan has 13 years of experience in education and four years as an assistant principal. Donovan is a dynamic educational leader, bestselling author of Beyond the Classroom, and host of the Aspiring School Leader Podcast. He currently serves as an assistant principal, school leadership coach, and an executive board member of the New Jersey affiliate of the National Alliance of Black School Educators. His mission to empower aspiring school leaders to confidently step into the leadership roles and lead with impact from day one. Now let's get to our conversation with Dr. Donovan Smalls II. Welcome back, everybody, to another exciting episode of the Educational Leadership Podcast. Today I am so excited to have on the show Dr. Donovan Smalls II. Donovan, welcome to the show.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 2:20

Thanks for having me, Jeff. I'm excited.

Principal JL: 2:23

All right, Donovan. I'm going to go ahead and ask you the same question that I asked everybody on this show. What inspired you to become an educator?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 2:34

So I really didn't see myself becoming an educator when I was young. I don't have that story of an inspirational teacher that I looked up to and wanted to walk in their footsteps. I think education really found me. I was one that loved sports growing up. I continue to love sports, played it, and that was really my path. I thought I was going to be a college basketball coach, which I did coach at Virginia State University for the women's basketball team for two years, really enjoyed that experience. Division II school, we were top 10 in the country. But I did undergrad, I majored in health and exercise science, health and exercise science teaching. And so that kind of just put me on a path of teaching that I never thought that I would fall into, right? I thought I would just coach. However, coaching and teaching have similar skills, you know, your similar passion in terms of helping young people. And that's what I saw myself doing for the rest of my life. And so I kind of fell into it and, you know, fell in love with it.

Principal JL: 3:40

Well, that's awesome, Donovan Yeah, it sounds like we kind of have some similar paths there when it comes to getting into education and finding coaching our way into our teaching careers. And so was there anything within your teaching experiences that helped you prepare you for the administration?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 4:01

The main thing I think that that helped me during teaching was the perspective of keeping students first. I think that everything we do as educators should be to keep students first. And that really became apparent when I stepped into school leadership, right? Because I think sometimes we can get caught up in appeasing the preferences of adults as opposed to taking care of the needs of children. And so as an educator, as a teacher, when I first started out, my principal used to preach that all the time. We have to keep kids first. And so now as a school leader, that's one of the things that I pride myself on and just constantly checking in with teachers, making sure that they have everything that they need so that they can be great educators, great teachers for our kids. So I think that's probably the number one thing is keeping the kids first.

Principal JL: 4:53

I really love that. You know, I think, you know, when you have a student-centered educational practice, you're really focused on making sure those kids are taken care of. And you said something there that's something that you need to do to help keep kids centered and focused is helping your teachers be supported and making sure you're helping them out and getting them to where they need to get to so they can help those students become the learners and the the thriving adults that we want them to be uh when they're school. So with that, kind of we're doing your teaching here. You've got some experience now. What was it that really inspired you to take that next step and become an assistant principal? Was it a tap on a shoulder? Was it you just decided I'm ready to do this? What was it?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 5:46

You know, it was really a pivot during COVID. So I taught health and physical education for four years, and then I had this desire to teach at the college level and be a college professor. And so I, you know, started working on my doctorate. I finished my doctorate degree, I defended my dissertation, and then a week later, my alma mater, Virginia State University, they called me back and they said, Hey, we have uh an assistant principal, an assistant professor position open. Would you be open to coming to Virginia to be a professor? And of course, I jumped at that opportunity because that's the reason why I got my doctorate. And so one year in, and then COVID hits. I'm thriving as a professor, but then COVID hits. And so, you know, a lot of institutions were facing financial burden, and so they had to make some shifts and changes. And so during that time, my wife happened to be, you know, getting ready to move to Cincinnati, Ohio, to finish a year of fellowship. And so we both went together. In the same month that I lost my job as a professor, I found another job as a health and PE teacher. And so I'm teaching at this charter school in Cincinnati, and I'm wondering, you know, uh like I'm wondering why the culture is very different from what I left as a teacher when I first started. You know, the the morale was down, student achievement was low. And so I'm trying to figure out why this is happening. And I'm noticing that every school isn't the same, every school leader isn't the same. So I'm thinking about what my pivot is going to be. And then instead of complaining about the problem, I figured, let me try to be the solution, right? And so I went back, I ended up working on my principal certification, finished that. My wife and I moved back to New Jersey. I ended up get going back to the school where I first started teaching to finish up all of my certification stuff. And then from there, you know, I landed my first vice principal job. And so that's really how I got into it. It was a pivot, you know. Unfortunately, COVID caused a lot of issues and, you know, a lot of mourning for people. I think it was also an opportunity for a lot of people to pivot, and that's that's literally what happened for me.

Principal JL: 8:15

Well, I really love how you took a negative situation and turned into a positive, right? Because you could have been like down and out, but you, you know what? I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonna figure this out. I really enjoy what I'm doing. So that's kind of interesting how you go from Virginia to Ohio, then to New Jersey, you know, kind of all these different reasons around that. I really enjoyed understanding, you know, that pivot story because there's things that get us into this profession, but get us into these leadership roles. And so I really uh appreciate you sharing that with us. Now, with that, you know, what are some things you have learned as a leader, you know, when it comes to being an assistant principal? What is like we talk about mind shift, right? You went from a classroom setting in your situation, PE, you're more of a gym or outside setting, depending on what you're teaching for the day. So, what was that shift like for you to go from classroom teacher into the assistant principal?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 9:20

For me, just thinking about the level of impact that I could have on students and allowing that to be greater than being in a classroom, right? I I think for me, it was as a health and physical education teacher, I was able to see every student in the building. And so that gave me a different perspective about learning and how some students might not necessarily be as open to having conversation in their math class, but then when they come into the gym, they're excited and they're invigorated. And then that's a way to get to that student and talk to them about the academic aspect of their learning. And so what I've learned is that there's so many ways that that students learn, and there are ways that we can impact students, but it for me, I wanted to do it on a broader scale. I always saw myself as a leader, even within sports. I was a point guard. And so, you know, that was one of the leadership roles that I had throughout my athletic career, which translated very easily, I think, when it came to school leadership. Leadership is something I'm extremely passionate about, it's something that I study. I'm constantly looking at life through the lens of leadership. And so it really was a natural progression for me, and I don't regret it at all. I love it.

Principal JL: 10:37

Awesome. I really appreciate you sharing that as well. And because a lot of people don't understand when you go from the classroom into the principalship, you know, there is a mind shift. You go from, you know, having your own little world here, and then, oh my goodness, I have everything else out here. I really like the perspective of being a PE teacher, being see, being able to see all those kids, and you kind of help build those relationships already and knowing, like, you know what, I see all these different types of learners. I'm not just kind of like stuck in a content area. I actually see everybody because I know like in Nebraska, everybody has to take PE it's required by our face. So, you know, you're gonna get them all on top of the road, you know, eventually. So I think I really, really enjoyed listening to that perspective as well. What are some things, you know, in your last four years being an assistant principal that you've learned about leadership? How have you grown in the last four years?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 11:38

One of the ways I've I've grown is to understand that as a school leader, you have to be a self-starter. I think one of the most not necessarily surprising things as I transition from teacher to leader, but I'd say a thing that you have to get used to is you have to manage your own time, right? You don't have a schedule with these are this is my prep period, this is the time that I eat lunch, this is the time that, you know, I'm able to plan, right? Like you literally have to create your own schedule. Yes, your principal is going to give you a role and responsibilities. However, it's up to you to be an instructional leader, to get it to classrooms, to give meaningful feedback, have those instructional conversations, right? Be visible. You have to figure all of that out. And so for me, that was one of like the main lessons that I've learned. It's you have to be a self-starter. You have to manage your own time. And you still, regardless of all of the discipline you might have to do, the lunch duty, the bus duty, you have to find time to be an instructional leader. So during my first year, I, you know, kind of felt like, man, I really want to be an instructional leader, but the culture of the school wasn't necessarily ready for us just popping into classrooms and doing walkthroughs. So that brought a little bit of frustration. I'm like, I this is the reason why I got into school leadership. But I've learned that you can also pivot in terms of being a part of a curriculum committee. And so now we're doing the back-end work of instruction. I'm still being an instructional leader, but it just might look a little different, right? And so I think you know, instructional leadership is extremely important, and we need to continue to find ways to express that.

Principal JL: 13:45

Do you have any tricks or tips you can tell people about managing your time and how you kind of get your you know, your stuff done? Like for me, I will list things out. I used to list it, but now my list becomes my Google Calendar. So if it's important for me, I put it on my calendar and I chuck out time throughout the day. So I dedicate time. And so something I'm doing this year that I haven't done a very good job of when you're talking about the educational or that constructional leadership piece, yeah, is actually blocking out periods of the day. So I block out different. We have block scheduling. So I'll take this block, this day, this block, the next day. I I move around the blocks and then I go, that's my dedicated walkthrough time where I will go and I will visit. I try to visit about three classrooms that every day that I do this. Now I don't do it every single day of the week, but I try to do it at least three times a week where I block out time and and do that. So do you have any tricks of the trade that you that helps you with that?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 14:51

Yeah, um, like you, I use Google Calendar. That's what I lean on. I lean on Google Calendar, I schedule everything there, meetings, walkthroughs, observations, post-observations. And then I also try to, you know, I try to get my my walkthroughs done first thing in the morning. So right after I'm letting uh students into the building, right after I am, you know, just walking through the hallways to make sure that everybody's safe and in classrooms, that's when I try to immediately pop into a few classrooms, have some instructional conversations, engage with students and teachers so that I'm at least, you know, making sure that it is a priority because we know that there's so many other things that can happen in the in the snap of a finger. And so I try to do it as soon as I can, and then maybe I'll answer some emails and then I'll go back out and and continue that visibility.

Principal JL: 15:47

But you started like popping in the classrooms where the students like, what's going on here? You know, like it was it kind of one of those they weren't used to it because I know for me, uh like that's one of the first things I did when I went from Southern Valley to Hastings is they weren't used to the principal just popping in whenever just to say hi, because it's almost like, oh my gosh, what's going on? Like, nah, very true. Now I'm like year four, and they'd be like, ah, it's just Mr. Linden, you know. So it didn't have stories like that too.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 16:17

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, it's interesting seeing the dynamic between different teachers and I guess, you know, their experiences because some of them are great. Like yesterday, one of our social studies teachers, I popped into his room, said good morning to everyone. And he was like, Oh, since you're here, you know, let let's let's talk about because he was doing a lesson on 9-11. He was like, Okay, what was your experience? Where were you? Can you talk a little bit about that? And so he he brought me right into the lesson, whereas others might be a little more hesitant. So it's interesting to see that dynamic. But yes, it's I always talk about like this this dynamic of like when you go through your admin program, you're taught to be an instructional leader and to get into classrooms. But as a teacher, you might not necessarily want principals, vice principals in your classrooms. So then how do you navigate that, right? That's that's always the question that I'm I'm constantly reflecting on. And so one of the strategies I try to use is just even before walking into the classroom, how can I build relationships first so that the teachers can see exactly who I am? So they know that I'm not trying to get them, I'm not out to try to give them any negative feedback, but like, how can we support one another throughout this process of raising student achievement?

Principal JL: 17:35

Yeah, no, I think you uh hit on some really great things there when you're talking about building relationships with your staff because they got to know that you care. And you know, they said at first, if you don't have that relationship, they might be going, Oh my gosh, what are they doing here? Am I in trouble? You know, a lot of times I have to go, ah, no, you're not in trouble. It's okay. It took them to build that rapport, but once they started realizing I'm there to help, I'm there to support, then it they were like, okay, this is gonna be a common thing, and it's gonna be there to help and and things like that. So I I really appreciate you uh talking about that point. And you know, our goal isn't to get teachers, is to say, we got you. You know, like we have you, we support you. We're not gonna we're not out to get you, you know. We got you on this, we want to help you become a teacher because we know the only way our building is gonna be successful is if they're successful, and the way we can do that support them. So I really appreciate that insight that you have there, and I really loved how the teacher brought you into the lesson. That's great.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 18:44

Oh, yeah, pull me right in.

Principal JL: 18:46

I had actually last week my English teacher came to me and said, Hey, Mr. Lyndon, I'm doing the uh 1984 book in English, and so she because we have an intercom system where I can speak like directly into a room, and so we have to kind of like you know, it's it's a nice system for an interview. That's cool. So I had this little thing I would say that was related to the book about 1984, like two plus two is five, and people gotta accept this fact. And so I like I'm the leader and I'm like the president or something. I'm like telling them that and so they had a really good, I did that for three periods. I had to talk at the time, and I would press in, I would say what I needed to say, and then the teacher would use that into the lesson. I always check in, hey, how did it go? And oh, this is great, because at first the kids uh, oh my gosh, is he broadcasting to the whole school? And then they realized that it was part of their lesson. So sometimes we get pulled in, I kind of liked it, it sounds really cool that you got pulled in.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 19:57

That's that sector of frog last year in our science class. So yeah, I I, you know, I really like I said, I I think the teachers actually enjoy when we're in the classroom as long as they know that they are supported and you're not trying to get them. I feel like that's that's kind of the vibe that that I get when you start to develop that rapport. They're like, oh, come in anytime, you know, yeah, and they like that visibility, they like that support, you know.

Principal JL: 20:23

And I feel yeah, I and I've experienced the same thing as well. I think the students like having you in class too, because that you'll get a build, or they get to see you in a little bit different light than being, you know, the disciplinarian, like you, you know, have to be something. So Arch Jonathan, talk about your best-selling book beyond the classroom. What motivated you to write the book and what message do you want readers to take away?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 20:50

So the motivation behind the book was really trying to serve as a mentor to aspiring leaders. You know, what I've learned throughout my journey and through my observation is that I feel like we put a lot of emphasis on instructional leadership, which I think is great. However, I think it's really important to be a leader in and of itself. When we talk about leadership, I mean the interpersonal skills, right? Being able to relate to others, but also the organizational skills. I think being able to lead people and the organization gives you the solid foundation to be an instructional leader. And so in my book, I focus a lot on practical strategies that help aspiring leaders build the capacity of teachers through relationship building and also organizational leadership. I've learned that some of the best leaders that I look up to actually are leaders who lead people well, right? And they lead the organization well. And so that's kind of the main premise of the book. And what I want readers to get from it is understanding that you cannot get instructional leadership right if you don't lead people and the organization well. And so that's that's really the heart of the book, helping people understand that people are the center of what we do. We lead people first and we lead instruction second.

Principal JL: 22:19

You bet. I mean, that's a great message because I do agree with that. Where if you can't lead the people, they're not gonna follow you, they're not gonna be able to make the vision or the mission that you may have come alive. And so being able to be a great leader, like you said, building relationships, having interpersonal skills, and I would say even having emotional intelligence on how to handle situations because I know something I'm trying to do is trying to help my teachers have build some capacity by communicating with each other and being able to have those tough conversations with each other when you're disagreeing. How do you have discourse with somebody that you may not agree with? That's important because we're all adults in this situation, and I've been in IEPs where a parent didn't like the decision that the IEP team had made. And I tell the parent, it's okay to disagree, it's fine. But trying to do this collectively and as a group, this is the decision that was made. And so it's one of those, you know, trying I that's one thing I'm trying to do is build my teacher capacity. How do you have these conversations? And I'll guide them through those, you know, ways and approaches and how to frame a conversation so they can be productive, but not just be a jerk about it, but actually try to come to a resolution. And those are skills people need to learn. It's hard, it's hard sometimes when you're adults. In my case, sometimes I call them adult children because the way the way things are. It's just like, dude, you gotta do it this way because if you do it this way, it's not gonna work for you. And so you try to help. That's something I do, and I really enjoy, you know, just learning about you know what you're trying to do with the book and trying to help people to build more capital. Do you have any stories about how the things that you've used in a book, you know, in real life, stories for examples that you could tell us about strategy or something that you can bring to life for us to give us an understanding?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 24:25

Well, I think speaking of that emotional intelligence aspect, right? I think when you become that school leader, you have to make sure that you are keeping your emotions in check because you are going to get conflict, right? You're going to have to have tough conversations with people. And, you know, you might have, like I remember having a parent and a student both cursing me out in my office. And as a leader, you have to know how to navigate those situations without you also raising to their level, right? I think it's important to know that yes, they might be upset, they might even curse you out. Like in my case, however, you're doing what's best for children. And sometimes people don't like that in terms of you doing it for all children and not necessarily trying to cherry pick for one child, right? We want to make sure that all students are getting what they need. And so sometimes that might not align with the vision of a parent. And so that emotional intelligence piece, as you spoke about, is so important to be able to navigate those situations with grace. You might have to call in security or ask someone to leave. You might have to, you know, tell someone politely, you know, after like we can have a conversation, but you cannot curse at me, right? And then you might have to call them back or allow them to call you back later, right? But you cannot match that particular energy that is coming toward you. You have to be poised, you have to be calm, you have to be cool and collected during those situations. And so that's where that emotional tele emotional intelligence piece comes in. And it's going to happen. You're going to face that confrontation, and so you just have to be ready for it. Yeah.

Principal JL: 26:18

I and I tell you what, you learn a lot about yourself when you have those situations, right? Yeah. No one likes to be yelled at and be called names, you know, like like we've talked about in the past. You know, I've been called every name in the book, but I also was in the military, so I've heard a lot of people call I've been I've heard a lot of language, so it's like you're really not gonna affect me just because I heard it. It's like not a big deal, but at the same time, I think you gotta have, like you said, that poise that you know, just in a bunch of time, just that that understanding, like I know you're upset, but we're here to help. We're helping hold everybody to a standard to where we're all being successful and we're having these certain expectations, just like today, right? We had an incident in the bathroom. There's this TikTok thing going on where kids will you know, deprecate or urinate in the bathroom and take a video and post it. We had that happen. Guess what I got to do? I sent out an email to all my parents and all my students and staff saying, Hey, this is a trend that's happening, we're not going to accept this in our school. This is the expectation, these are what the standard is for us because we want to make sure we have a safe and welcoming environment for everybody. So just know that. And so that was one of those things you're not prepared to do, but right do something else. I have to do this, so it's like, ah man, you you don't you don't know what you're getting into some days.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 27:54

That's so it's got that's the thing about leadership, too. It's like no two days are the same, and so you have to be able to think on your feet. You have to, you're a decision maker at this point, and so you have to figure out a solution to these problems and to these issues that you have no experience with. And so as you continue to learn, as you continue to grow, I think it gives you the opportunity to like learn, okay, this person handles this, this person handles this, I can delegate here. I need to make sure that I am over-communicating with parents, right? Like those are the things that I think are extremely important. And so you only learn that once you get into the role and as you continue to grow. Yeah, they don't teach you that stuff in admin school, do they? No, they don't. They do not.

Principal JL: 28:43

I know, but I appreciate that you have a resource out there for people that are looking to become administrators, and I would definitely, you know, suggest people to go out and get his book and check it out. And I'll actually put it in the show notes so people can easily find it and so they can get to get a hold of your book so they can take a read for it. So, Donovan, you're not just a you know an author, but you're also a podcaster, right? What inspired you to start the inspiring school leader podcast? What's the purpose of it? What's the premise? What's the reasoning for it?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 29:19

So, on the Aspiring School Leader Podcast, I help aspiring school leaders confidently land their first leadership role and lead with impact from day one. And what I've noticed was that there are some aspiring leaders who might need interview prep and they might need leadership development, right? I think one of the gaps that my podcast fills is specifically interview prep because once you finish your admin program, you're trying to land that first leadership role, but you might need a little bit of coaching and development as it relates to how to answer these questions. Because we know that the teacher interview is very different from the leadership interview. And you have to be able to navigate that tactfully and strategically and pull out your leadership story. And there's so many things that I think are extremely important. And so when people reach out to me for coaching, they they have watched the podcast and they understand, like, oh, I actually do need a little bit of interview coaching. And so, you know, weekly I release episodes and just really getting to the heart of that leadership interview, but also providing some leadership development for aspiring leaders. Awesome, awesome.

Principal JL: 30:39

I really appreciate you doing that work because there is a gap there. I know a few other people that kind of do some of the same type of coaching as well, and but I really appreciate you doing that because I didn't have that, I just figured it out on my own. And I think when you those resources, I'll tell you, you know what? There's probably more resources for people that want to get into leadership now than there was just even three years ago. And so I really appreciate you know the work that you have done and you are doing for people. But you know, that's a lot of work, right? It is. Principal, you're a podcaster, you coach on the side. How do you balance that? How do you balance all these different things? Like for me, you know, being a building principal, which I love, and then podcasting is more than enough to keep me busy. When it comes to extra things, so how do you balance all that? What is your secret when you when you have all these different things that I'm gonna help people?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 31:43

It's a day-by-day thing. And I uh you know, when it comes to writing, I I think the trend uh for me, at least with writing, is whenever I get to the next level of my career, I try to write something that'll help other people get to where I am. And so, you know, writing kind of ebbs and flows, but in terms of the podcast, I try to record weekly and stay ahead of things. What I've learned with podcasting, at least for me, I typically do like an individual podcast for about maybe 15 to 20 minutes. I try to do very limited editing. Um, I try to keep it as authentic as I can. But it it's it's a challenge, I'd say. It's a challenge in terms of balancing everything. But I think it's definitely worth it. It's something that I'm passionate about. It's something that I truly enjoy. And I feel like it's it's beneficial to other people, especially based on the feedback that I get. And, you know, the balancing part is is something that I'm always trying to figure out better ways that I can do that. But, you know, I I really utilize the days off from school. I might try to batch record or do things like that just to make sure that I have a reserve just in case something happens. So yeah, the balancing, I I don't know. I don't know. I'm like you, it's more than enough.

Principal JL: 33:03

Right enough, yeah. Well, you also have your wife and your kids and you know, all that stuff to balance. I'm a little lucky because about four or five, four of the five kids I have are out of the house. I have just one left, so it's not so bad, but I try to I try to like record once a week when I have a guest. You know, if I don't have a guest in the queue, I will probably record my own like episode of something that's going on that I feel like it's important for people to know about. So I will do some single recordings, but also I'd like the guest recordings. You know, with that, I try to do that balance, but I really enjoy the guests because guess what I get to do? I'm doing some professional development. Uh I learned from you. Hey, what are some things that you've learned? And I like to hear people's stories, and that's also the reason when we hear each other's stories, we can say, you know what? It's not so different in New Jersey as it is in Nebraska or Florida. You know, we're all in this together, and I think people need to realize that that, you know, no matter where you're at in education, we have similar struggles, period, no matter where you're at or what you're doing, but we're all trying to figure it out together. And if we can lean on each other and support each other, we're gonna be more successful. And I think that's where I see the podcasting going. Yes, resource for people and helping each other through these things because they can listen to your podcast, my podcast, Josh Navarro's podcast, you know, Principal Faley's podcast, Darren Pepper's podcast. I'm just saying it's Houston's podcast. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people out there that are there to support you. You just gotta plug in and and and let them speak to you so you can get better. And I've always taken and learned things from other people that helps me become better. And so I really like the professional development. Do you have some similar experiences as a podcaster?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 35:13

Oh, so one of the things, at least for me, I I do enjoy this part of the podcasting in terms of us collaborating and and having this conversation because it allows me to get a different perspective based on like I feel like you we can get caught up in where we are, and this is the way things are, and we don't necessarily look at it like, oh, there's so many other great people doing great things, but we don't, we're not exposed to it, right? So I would never be exposed to the the great things that you're doing in Nebraska if we didn't connect virtually, right? Or going to conferences and connecting with so many people and seeing, like, oh, for a staff meeting, you might, you know, make it a make it a little bit more engaging by doing this. Or, you know, I met a principal from Kansas City who, for his staff retreat back to school, he's taking them on a helicopter ride. I'm like, that that's amazing, right? Like, I'm like, they must have some money there. But I'm like, just these things, right? Or just like, you know, another principal I met, he lives in Seattle. He's from Seattle, but he's a principal in Alaska. So I was asking him, like, how does that dynamic work? And so I think just having conversations through podcasting, through going to conferences, where you're hearing the perspective of other people, it's inspiring. It's it's truly inspiring.

Principal JL: 37:25

Yeah. I also learned by doing that, you find out, you know what, the things you're doing lines up with what other great people that are in this business doing as well. And so it builds confidence. You're doing the right things, you're doing the things that other great leaders do. And so I think that's another piece that I've learned too when you connect with people from across the nation. Um, and not just in your own state. It's important to connect to the people around you in your state, but they also connect also nationwide to get those perspectives. Because, like I said, we're all in this together and we all have stories and we all come from different places. But guess what? We all have the same struggles, we all have the same things we're working. We do it together, we'll be better forever. So I just think so. Let let's talk about people that want to get into becoming a principal. What advice would you tell somebody wants to become an assistant principal or principal one day out there listening to this podcast right now? What would you tell them?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 38:31

I would tell them if it's something that they're truly passionate about, try to find a mentor. I think mentorship is extremely important because it gives you an opportunity to bounce ideas off of others. People can give you some insight into what this position that you're walking into is truly like. I'm a firm believer that you don't really understand what the principal or vice principal role is until you actually sit in that seat. I think it's easy to talk about what you would do and you can critique and criticize and all of these things, but until you sit in the seat, you won't actually know how it feels. So, you know, if that's something that that an aspiring leader truly wants to do, find a mentor and then strategically figure out where you want to be in terms of do you think that you'll be great leading in an elementary school or a middle school or a high school because there are different dynamics among the three. And so just figuring out your sweet spot, I think that's that's extremely important because it'll narrow down your options and target where your impact is going to land.

Principal JL: 39:43

That's great advice. I really like how you talked about there is a difference between elementary, middle school, and high school. I was a 7-12 principal, so I spent a lot of time with my seventh and eighth graders getting them ready for high school at one point. I'm in my sweet spot because I love high school. I'm at the 9-12 level. How do I bring my eighth graders from coming from eighth grade into freshman year? One of the things we did this year was we did a freshman-only day to where we transition the kids, give them a full day by themselves in the building because they're used to teams at the middle school where all the eighth graders are down this wing, all the seventh graders are down this wing, all the sixth graders down this way. So they never really mixed except amongst each other. Well, you get thrown into the high school. We call it the welcome to the jungle because you know we're basically and we're, you know, you come up to high school, it feels like a jungle because we got kids, we have a thousand kids, nine twelve, and freshmen are thrown into that, and it's almost like feed them to the wolves and see what happens. We ended up having this freshman-only day. The staff did an amazing job with it, but it was just for those freshmen where they can understand the way we operate, the expectations, and how to find your classroom. You know, how to navigate the building. I'd give them some ice cream, I fed them some pizza, and it was a great experience. We did at scavenger hunts. We did all these fun activities as well as pictures and all this fun stuff, to the point where the upperclassmen were jealous because they wouldn't want to do it. But it really did help. And it was you know, the freshmen's it's like we brought them the next day back with everybody, and they just integrated right in. Where before that first day with them was chaotic, and it was just so much, and we we saw the difference like immediately. So that's kind of one of those things that you know you learn as you go, and you have to find that sweet spot. Like you said, elementary is different. I would not go elementary, yeah. No, not doing it. Are you like, no, not doing it? I have a seven year old teacher. I could deal with my kid at that age, but I don't know if I can deal with other people's kids.

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 42:08

Right.

Principal JL: 42:08

Uh but yeah, no, I think just go in your wheelhouse, that's important, and then go for that as well. Hey Jonathan, what is one thing you wish you knew as an educational leader that you didn't know before getting into the role?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 42:29

As an educator, I think I think the thing that I'm finding out and I'm learning is that because everyone has been through the school system, they sometimes can feel like they can tell you how to do your job better than you. I think that's one of the things that I'm realizing. It's like, okay, uh education is probably one of the few industries where everybody has gone through it. And so now they have an opportunity people have an opportunity to then say, Well, you should do this. I don't like how you did this. Like, and so you have to be able to take it with a grain of salt, obviously, listen, sift through what type of improvements that you can make based on the feedback. I think that's important. However, you have to also recognize that everything that's being said, you cannot take personally. And so I think during my first year, extremely passionate, on fire for leadership, which I still am, but a little bit naive in understanding that everybody is not going to be on your side. People are just going to oppose you because you're in a leadership seat. That's that's what comes with it. And so you have to, again, not take any of it personally, don't take it home with you, don't take the stress with you. Learn how to shut things down when it needs to be shut down, and then come back fresh the next day and and and give it your all. But I think that's that's probably what what I'm learning four years in. It's like, oh, okay, I see that because everyone has been through it, the educational system, and because we have to be open to the feedback, right? We receive the emails, the phone calls. People think that they know how to run a school because of that. And so, you know, just take it with a grain of salt, listen to what you can improve upon and and keep moving.

Principal JL: 44:28

Yeah, I really love that. That's so true. Just because everybody's gone through school at one point in their life, and because they went through school, they'll be like, Well, when I was in school, we did it this way, and that way, you know, so it's like one of those things like oh, I mean, okay, I hear you out, but at the same time, there might be a good idea there once in a while, you don't know, but at the same time, yeah, like they go, Well, you know, I've been through this, you know, I am a professional at this, and that's what other people forget about is like I don't go to the doctor's office and tell the doctor how to do his job, right? You know, you're not sending him an email. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, I would, you know, we're we are professionals as well, and I you know, sometimes people lose sight of that because of that, you know. Hey, we all been in the school and they think they know how it runs, but they really don't because they really haven't been in a school or worked in a school, but everybody has these grand uh grandiose ideas on how it should run based off of personal experiences. And like you said, you're I just listen. There might be a good idea there, and you know, just um thank you for your feedback. I'll keep it in mind, and you know, see you later. You know, Jonathan, you know, been in a leadership role for a while. What gets you excited to continue the work that you're doing?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 45:57

I think it's the kids, you know, it's the kids. I think it's having kids of my own and seeing them grow and wanting to operate with a level of excellence for them, you know, and for all kids. I think that's that's really what it's about for me. That's why I got into education, just really focusing on the students and helping them be the best that they can be, really figuring out how to tap into their greatness, but allow them to see it. I think sometimes we can't always see what we're great at, the skills, the abilities, the talents that we have. We don't always recognize them because we have them. And we're like, uh, we'll brush it to the side because it just comes so naturally and easily to me. But that might be the thing that can cause somebody to, you know, tap into their greatness and their light can shine. And so for me, it's just about really figuring out how we can pull those skills out of the kids to help them eventually change the world. So it's about the the children.

Principal JL: 47:03

I love it. I love it. I think we all get into this business because we want to impact young life, right? Yeah you know, we all just have different roles and we have kind of like the place on the team. This is my role, and if we all do our part, we're gonna be successful. But the overall goal is to help those kids reach their fullest potential, and a part of our role with that is to help our teachers reach their fullest potential so the students can do it. And that's kind of like the fun part, right? How do I pull these levers to get the results that we're we're wanting for everybody? And that doesn't matter. That's prostination. Wherever you're at as a principal or as an educator, that's what your goals are, regardless of the background you come from, what city you live in. That's the ultimate goal is to have people have a great experience and help them streak their potential so they can be contributing adults to society. And I think that's really important. I really appreciate you know that and that that feedback as well. Now, Donathan, we've been here for a while. We've talked a lot of great things. You know, if people wanted to connect with you, and you know, maybe they will need a coach and somebody that needs to help them get that first principalship job, or hey, maybe they want to read your book, or hey, maybe they want to follow you on social media. How can people connect with you?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 48:27

So, my book, Beyond the Classroom, is on Amazon. You can find it there. You can also connect with me on all social media platforms at Donovan SmallsNumber Two. And then they can also visit my website, Donovan Smalls the Number Two.com. And my my podcast is the Aspiring School Leader Podcast. It's on YouTube, Spotify, and also Apple Podcasts.

Principal JL: 48:52

Awesome. And everybody, I'll put that information in the show notes. So all you have to do is go down there and click on it, and boom, there you go. All right, Donovan. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you being on the show. Do you have any last words before we go?

Dr. Donovan Smalls II: 49:09

Um, I'd just like to thank you for the work that you're doing. I really appreciate you know you highlighting other educational leaders and just giving us an opportunity to share and have conversation and learn. I've learned so much from you based on the things that you've shared, and I'm inspired and I'm ready to go. So thank you. What a conversation with Dr.

Principal JL: 49:34

Donovan Smalls II. I hope you loved learning about his journey from the classroom to educational leadership. It just shows that becoming an educational leader is not linear, and there are many paths that educational leaders have in their journey. If this episode resonates with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Please subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss another impactful episode when it drops. Until next time, be curious and 1% better.