Episode 48: I Choose to Stay: Dr. Salome Thomas-EL’s Journey from the Chessboard to the Classroom to Leadership!

A single question from a group of students rerouted a career—and sparked a movement. That’s how Dr. Salome Thomas-EL, widely known as Principal EL, went from TV production to a life in education, using chess to teach math, identity, and grit while building a school culture where kids line up to get in. We talk about the early days in Philadelphia, why engagement must precede information, and how a chessboard became intellectual capital that changed how students saw themselves and how others saw them.

The story stretches from neighborhood classrooms to national championships, but the wins don’t stop at trophies. Former players graduated from Temple Law, UVA, Cornell, Penn State, and HBCUs, carrying with them skills that rarely show up on state tests; critical thinking, self-regulation, empathy, and patience. Along the way, Principal EL lays out his Four C’s: be Crazy about kids, be Curious about their lives, be Consistent as adults, and build a Culture that blends joy with high expectations. He explains why high school reform starts in kindergarten, how strategic losses teach more than streaks, and what it takes to keep talented educators choosing to stay.

We also dive into his new book, Meet Their Needs and They’ll Succeed, a field guide for trauma-informed, culturally responsive, and relentlessly practical leadership. From the hospital metaphor that reframed teacher care to the often overlooked power of after-school programs and community partners, every story points to the same truth: when the right adults show up with belief and structure, kids rise. If you’re an aspiring principal or a veteran leader, you’ll leave with actionable ideas, renewed purpose, and a reminder that service is the heart of leadership.

If this conversation moved you, subscribe, share it with a colleague who needs a spark, and leave a review; what’s one change you’ll make this week?

Connect with Principal EL:

Website: https://www.principalel.com/

X: @Principal_EL

Instagram: @dr.principalel

LinkedIn Click Here: 

FacebooK Click Here:

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/PrincipalEL

Teach Better Mid Roll Network Ad

Chapters

• 0:00 Principal EL’s Purpose And Origins
• 6:53 From Math Class To Chessboards
• 11:43 Chess As Identity And Equalizer
• 19:24 Raising The Bar And Winning Big
• 25:44 Beyond Trophies: Life Outcomes
• 30:54 Choosing Leadership And Choosing To Stay
• 39:04 Reframing The Narrative On Schools
• 45:35 Honors, Joy, And Defining Moments
• 52:15 The Four C’s Of School Success

Transcript

Principal JL: 0:59

Today's guest embodies the spirit of purpose-driven leadership in education. Dr. Salome Thomas-EL, also known to many as Principal EL. Principal EL has dedicated his life to serving students and transforming schools since 1987. He is currently leading a K-8 school in Wilmington, Delaware. But his story first captured national attention in Philadelphia, where as a teacher and chess coach at Vaux Middle School, his students became eight-time national chess champions. He is the author of best-selling books I Choose to Stay and The Immortality of Influence, both of which highlight the power of leadership, mentoring, and service. His latest work, Meet Their Needs and They'll Succeed, released in April of 2025, continues that mission, reminding educators everywhere that every child can thrive when we lead with heart and hold high expectations. Principal EL's impact extends far beyond his school walls. He's appeared on C-SPAN, CNN, MPR, Good Morning America, and the Oprah Radio Network. He studied leadership abroad. He earned his doctorate in educational leadership from Wilmington University and has been recognized with honors, such as the Marcus A. Foster Award for Outstanding Administration in Philadelphia and the University of Pennsylvania's Martin Luther King Award. Readers Digest even named him an inspiring American icon. From chessboards to classroom, Principal L continues to prove that when we invest in relationships, resilience, and belief, kids will rise. Now, before we get to the episode, just so you know, there's an Easter egg in this episode, so be paying attention. Now let's get to our conversation with Principal L. Welcome back, everybody, to another exciting episode of the Educational Leadership Podcast. Today I am so excited to have Dr. Salome Thomas-EL or aka Principal EL on the show. Principal EL, welcome to the show.

Principal EL: 3:23

Oh, thanks for having me. Principal EL here speaking to Principal JL. Doesn't get any better than that.

Principal JL: 3:31

You bet, you bet. Hey, Principal EL. I'm going to go ahead and start you off with the same question I ask everybody on the show. What inspired you to become an educator?

Principal EL: 3:42

What inspired me to become an educator? Well, I'm going to be honest with you. When I was an undergrad in college, I wanted to go to law school. I was a uh TV journalism communications major. And my one of the deans in our communication calls, he said, don't be an attorney. Make a difference, be a teacher. But I went on and started a small career as an assistant producer on a local cable sports television station in Philly. Went to a high school to speak about my job and TV and talk to the kids about how you know my mind raised. You know, eight kids, didn't have a car. My teachers drove me to school, picked me up. And and the kids said to me after the program, you know, if if if your teachers did that for you, how come you aren't a teacher? And that was it for me. I walked into my TV job and I quit and I enrolled in graduate school, got a master's degree, and went back to the same high school and started teaching Jeff. And it was it was right right from there that I now I started working in high school, and the high school kids said, you know, we were only joking, Mr. We thought you would hook us up with a TV job when we graduated. You know, but I realized early on that uh those kids will make you feel like you can walk on water. You know you found your home when you find your calling. And I also realized that high school reform does not begin in high school. That there are kids who struggle in elementary middle school long before they get into high school. And so I uh I spent the next 10 years of my life in a feeder middle school. And in 10 years, we lost almost 20 young people to murder in that community. And I realized I had to find a way that I could teach students that they could choose the behavior, but they couldn't choose the consequences. And that's why I started to teach chess. And I know we'll probably get into that later on, but that was really how I got my starter in TV, talking to kids in the high school. How come you aren't teaching? Started teaching and just fell in love with with the kids from that was 39 years ago, sir. And I'm still going.

Principal JL: 5:49

Awesome, awesome. Hey, we appreciate you doing all the things you're doing to impact kids uh for the last 39 years. So thank you for that. So, principal EL, let's talk about what subject did you teach with that with teaching. Is there any lessons you had as a teacher that helped you when you became a principal down the road?

Principal EL: 6:11

I was a math teacher and I worked, also worked in an in-school suspension program and worked with some special education programs as well. That's actually where I initially started my chess program, teaching special education students at mathematics, teaching them mathematics on the chessboard. That was an engagement before information. That's something I learned early on. That we had to find a way to engage students before we could teach them anything, build that connection, that bridge, that relationship, and then they'll start buying into and getting that confidence. And one of, you know, one of the lessons I really learned early on was that teaching these students mathematics and chess early on that smart is not something you are, it is something you can become. So it's not a fixed mindset. You just have to believe that you know you can become successful, that you can learn anything and creating that that learning culture in your classroom and in your school. And then the bottom line is really that kids don't, you know, Dr. Rita Pearson made it a powerful TED Talk years ago. She passed away right after she talked about every child needs a champion, but she also said something very controversial in that TED Talk. She said, kids don't learn from people they don't like. There's some folks who disagree with that. And I don't think she was, I don't think she was promoting that we we need to be on a quest to be liked by students. I tell my young people all the time, if I don't need friends, if I want a friend, I'll get a pet. You know, I need some young people that want to work hard and and grind, but I think it's also true that we want those students to see themselves in us and we see ourselves in them. Once that connection's made, I think the learning begins and there's nothing that can stop it. And so early on as a teacher, I realized that instead of trying to be that educator who just said, you know, no excuses, you come in and you gotta make it happen. I had to think about all those adults who helped me, sir, who didn't say no excuses, who didn't say, you know, tie up your shoes and get it done. They said, no, what do you need? What can I do to meet your needs? And that that's when I really shifted my career, became the educator that tried to meet the needs of young people. I I tried to go where they were and take them to where I wanted them to go. And I, you know, I end up saying to students often that my goal is to get you in the Penn State and not the state Penn. So let's go.

Principal JL: 8:47

There you go. Oh wait, so you are you telling me you're a Penn State fan?

Principal EL: 8:55

I'm from Pennsylvania, I'm from Philly. I'm an even bigger Eagles fan, you know, because we just won the Super Bowl. We did a number on the Kansas City Chiefs, a great organization, but uh, we just had to handle our business. But uh, yeah, so I'm a Penn State fan from Pierre. I went to small college of Upstate PA near uh Penn State, but a proud Philly guy and such a fan of giving young people the runway, getting them on the runway, and let them choose whatever career path you know they want. But I think it begins with engagement, with joy, learning, and resilience. And those have really been my my keys to successful for young people.

Principal JL: 9:37

Awesome. I really appreciate it. I remember that TED talk where she said people don't learn from where from people they don't like. And I took away from that is building that relationship with kids is gonna help you help them learn because if they don't have a relationship with you, then forget about it, it's not gonna happen as well because you're able to, like you said, meet the needs where they're at and help them get to where they need to be. And I think that's really powerful. Those are some things I taught math as well. So yeah, the math teacher, 11 years. So I did that all at the secondary level when it came down to it. So let's talk about like the chess team a little bit. What got you? You kind of were kind of alluding to it. You were helping special education kids learn, you know, some math through playing chess. And where did that start? And you know, where did you know it kind of ended up becoming like national championship chess teams, right? Yeah, really kind of take us through that story. I would love for our listeners to to hear that story.

Principal EL: 10:41

Yeah, so you know, I'm I'm teaching these kids mathematics on a chessboard, knights move on right angles, bishops move on diagonals, the chessboard is a large square that contains 64 smaller squares. And I thought, you know, just that I was just giving these students mathematics on a chessboard. What I was really giving them was intellectual capital. They were now walking around the school carrying chessboards. And if you don't assume anything else about a kid who carries a chessboard, you assume that they're smart or intelligent. So these students are walking around the school carrying chess boards, and other students would run up to them and say, You play chess, aren't you in the learning disabled program? They say, Yeah, let's play a match and see if you should be my roommate, right? Like it humbles you. And so these students started beating me, other students, all of the kids in the school wanted to play, and it became more popular than basketball. And I saw the teacher said, Take them out, have them compete against other schools, elementary and middle schools. And so they're competing and they're winning. These students aren't losing a match, and I'm worried, and the teacher's like, What are you worried about? Because I knew what was coming. Because these students started winning so much, they didn't want to practice them. They said, Practice? You talking about practice? I said, You gotta come to practice like this. That's it, we're winning. So I said, I gotta, I gotta find a way to humble these young people. So we started competing against high schools and they started losing, and that's what I wanted. Because you learn more from losing, sir, than you do from winning at any level. Amateur, professional, basketball, football, baseball, it doesn't matter. You will study those tapes when you lose. And uh lose, lose, lose, and then they beat central high school chess team. These are elementary middle school students. Central high school in Philadelphia is one of the oldest high schools in the nation. And and I said, Wow, if we raise the bar for these young people, they'll rise to our level of expectation. So I took them out to compete at the U.S. amateur chess championship, over 220 teams, larger than the Olympics, no age limit. They won first place, defeated a team from Bucknell University, defeated a team of four men whose combined age was over 200 years, never done before in U.S. chess history. And then uh went to Knoxville, Tennessee later that year in 1997, won a national championship. Arnold Schwarz nigga came to visit our school in the fall. He wanted to run for governor president, challenged one of my young ladies to chess, and I said, Arnold, don't fool with these girls. They treat these chess pieces like offspring. They'll play hours and never trade a piece. A piece, he said, no, I want to play her. I said, Arnold, you don't want to play Denise. She's one of the top 50 female chess players in the nation in the AIDS division. She's also in church every Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday, Arnold. You won't beat her. He said, No, I want to. And Denise said, I'll play him, Miss L. He's rich, he's famous. He's married to a woman who has more money than he does. So I know he's upset. I said, Who taught you that? And she said she checked me. She said, I checkmate him, I treat him just like he was another guy. Arnold said, You terminated the terminator. And then he wrote a check for our program for $20,000. We've never asked our school district for a dime. We were from a very poor school district. These students traveled to Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Arizona, Florida, Yugoslavia, compete against the national team. It was just an amazing experience for these young people. But what I was most proud of, sir, was that these students also were graduated from Temple Law School, University of Virginia, Cornell University, Penn State, Temple University, Howard University, you know, Delaware State, Morgan State Bowie State, just it was Hampton University. It was just so amazing to see these students realize their dreams through school and through chess. And it was the travel, the exposure that many of them talked about was a real springboard and a lifesaver. You know, for them, chess I would tell people was the great equalizer. Because when you sit across that board, it doesn't matter how old that opponent is. Some of these young people, some of these chess masters, sir, are eight, nine, ten years old. And they defeat team, they teach defeat men 30, 40, 50 years old. Young females can defeat an adult male. It's the equalizer. No, it's my brain against your brain. And it became it became my my magic wand. And I I've been using it every day, ever since, because it's a way for me to connect and build relationships with young people, but it's also a way for me to challenge them beyond the norm and something that's academic, you know, for for our young people. So it's been great. My school in Wilmington, Delaware, they're two-time national chess champions, the only school in Delaware that ever win a national title. So it's been a great run and a great ride. And I'm just glad that the students have embraced this concept of chess, critical thinking, problem solving, reasoning, patience. It's just um, it's just an amazing opportunity for them to uh to really improve. Uh and these are skills that quite often will never get tested on the state test, but most employers tell you are most important to the success of employees, self-regulation, discipline, you know, friendship, kindness, problem solving, critical thinking, analyzing. These are all skills that young people and adults need and will need for the remainder of their lives.

Principal JL: 16:17

Yeah, I totally agree with you on that. 100% being in public education. I'm in Nebraska and public education, Nebraska is pretty decent. I mean, it's not bad. And that's one of the things we talk about is like, hey, how are we challenging our kids? How are we raising the bar form? How are we holding them accountable? Where are our expectations? But also how are we helping them craft? How are we helping them gain skills they need to have so they can become employable when they're done? Because in a high school setting for me, I'm getting them ready to go out into the working world. And you're right, you talk about building a foundation at that elementary and middle school. And if they don't have it, then the high school is trying to fill those gaps. And so I see the importance of a strong foundation at that elementary level as well as that middle school level. So by the time they get to the high school, you know, they can maybe even achieve more than they would have if they would have had, you know, with the foundation that was built. So I appreciate you know the things that you do at that elementary level and that middle school level to help those kids build that foundation because it helps us high schoolers, principals a lot when you guys do that. So I appreciate that. So, you know, with this success as a teacher and a chess coach, what was it that inspired you to become a principal, to take that next step into leadership? Was it a tap on the shoulder? Was it, you know, just you knew it was time? What was it that inspired you to take the next step and become a principal?

Principal EL: 18:06

It was a multitude of things. One of the issues for me was teaching chess in the elementary and middle in a and teaching chess in the middle school, is I wanted to be able to teach students chess at an earlier age. And I wanted to be able to teach all the students. So I said, I want to become a principal so I can have all the students, require all the students to learn chess. But also, you know, I had an assistant superintendent who tapped me and said, Hey, you're ready. Now I had a principal who told me I wasn't ready. And my assistant superintendent said, Listen, your principal is gonna tell you that for the rest of your life because he doesn't want you to leave. Um, he wants you to stay there and help run that school. He said, But you're ready. And I think uh these students and teachers are missing out on an opportunity if you don't, if you don't take a job. So, and when I was assistant principal, I became an assistant principal at the school where I was teaching. I talk about this in my first book, I choose to stay, how the superintendent, the chief of staff called and wanted to move me to a nearby middle school in the middle of school year. It was a Friday, and they wanted me to report on Monday as an I was a teacher at the time, I'm sorry, and they wanted to promote me to assistant principal, and I turned it down. And this chief of staff said, Why are you turning it down? It's a big $20,000 raise. And I said, I talk to these kids all the time about how it's not about the money. And if they came in on Monday and I wasn't here, they would know that I left for the money. So it's not that I don't want to become an administrator. I love the school district. You'll probably never offer me a job again, but I just can't leave these kids in the middle of the year. I'm one of the few male role models they have, and I just gotta stand on my word. And um, and I'll be. And that's how the whole I Choose to stay movement got started. As a matter of fact, my book, I choose to stay, starts out. The first chapter starts out with that story. And my principal's upset with me because how could you try to leave me? I said, I didn't try to leave. They recruited me, but I turned it down. And and and the suit, and the chief of staff said, No, she said, I think once other principals hear why you're turning this job down, most of them will want, they're gonna want you to work for them. So I admire you for you know your decision. And um, and I became an assistant principal at the school where I was, you know, a year later. But but I just had to, it was a tough decision because my family, we needed the money. Just me moving up could have opened a position for someone else. But just at the time, I just needed to send a message to those young people that I said I would be here for you and money wouldn't take me away. And um, and when I be, when I started, when the chess program became when we won a national championship, I started getting six-figure offers to move to suburban districts. A teacher became an administrator, and I turned it down because I wanted to stay in the inner city with the young people, the same community where I grew up without a dad, those teachers there, many of them didn't look like me. They were young, white females and uh African-American female teachers who took me under their wing, looked out for me. There were some male role models, but it just was so many more women in our profession. And so I felt like I owed it to them to make that same. They chose to stay for me, sir. And so I wanted to make that same decision uh for them. But that's what led me to want to become a leader so I could impact others' young people, but I could have a stronger impact on teachers, you know, as well, and maybe start a whole I choose to stay movement, you know, with a school, you know, full of teachers. So that's really what inspired me. A younger student to teach some chess because the 85% of the brain is developed before they ever walk into a school, you know, pre-K, kindergarten, first grade, you know, most of the brain is developed. We can't wait until middle school and high school to teach students critical thinking skills. We got to get them early. So that's I wanted that's why I wanted to start early, but I also wanted a bigger impact as well.

Principal JL: 22:15

Yeah, awesome. How many years were you assistant principal before you moved into the principalship?

Principal EL: 22:19

Just two years, and my uh assistant super tapped me and said, Listen, I got a school. It's a turnaround, it's a turnaround, but it was one block from my middle school, so I could run my elementary program and my middle school chess program at the same time. So it was a win-win for me.

Principal JL: 22:37

Oh, that's awesome. So you kind of alluded to the book, I choose to stay. I I'll go ahead and we'll go ahead and talk about it right now. What do you want people to take away from that book? I choose to stay. What is it that you want people to really know about that book?

Principal EL: 22:56

That book was really, it was my life story, and and I remember, and and um the book was published in 2003. And I remember around 2000, 2001, we were shopping it around to publishers, and no publishers would bite on it. They they just said teachers wouldn't read about other teachers, and you know, just it, and then just a story about an educator just wasn't interesting. And uh, but then I had one New York publisher said, We're gonna make it our lead hardcover title. And you know, John Grisham's first book wasn't even in hardcover. And they said, We're gonna make it our lead hardcover title because we just believe in the story and the power of educators. Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote the forward in the book. As soon as the book was published, Disney optioned the movie rights, 50,000 copies in print, you know, with almost little to no uh promotion. And it was just all teachers and administrators out there supporting me, supporting the story, the message of I choose to stay. And it was really about me turning down those jobs, making that choice to stay. It's a choice we all make, no matter where we are. It's a choice we make to be there for those young people, for those adults who are saving private Ryan every day. And so they did it for me. And I turned around and I said, I'm gonna do it for them. And I'm hoping to inspire a whole nation of educators to make that choice. And if you don't choose to stay, that's great too. Because guess what? The time that you did give the young people, they're much better off for it. Everybody can't stay 10, 20, 30 years like us, sir. But those who do, God bless you. But those who don't, you you chose to serve for some period of your life. And if we could get everybody to just do that, I think we'd be much better off in in uh in public education. And also, I choose to stay ends with a story. One of my former chess players, a young man, Otis Bullock, a struggling family, graduated high school, went to college, and called me up his senior year. And he said, Listen, it's Friday and I'm graduating on Sunday, and I don't want you to come. Principal L. He said, But I need one favor. I need you to let every teacher, every teacher that you know, let them know that one of their kids made it and tell them that I said, Thank you. And I said, Otis, you don't understand. I need to come to your graduation. I've been to too many funerals, I need to go to more graduations. He said, No, don't come. But let them know. I said, Thank you. I called every teacher I could, Jeff, and I said, We dangle, we need to dangle the academic care for these children. We close our schools down when they win the state football championship. We've got to support these young people. And they showed up, and that young man, when he graduated, 100-degree heat, people passing out in the heat. We took pictures of him with his friends, with people he didn't even know. We were so happy to see one of our kids make it. That was in June of 2000, and he shared with us that some of his friends, some family, didn't come to graduation. I said, look in the audience. Every teacher I could find, I called, and they came out. And in May 2004, that young man graduated from Temple Law School. It was the proudest moment, you know, of my life. I said, This is the reason why I chose to stay. This is why I wrote that book. Because I wanted that young man to uh to know that we supported him, and I wanted some other young person to know that that I need to make that decision and become a teacher and do the same thing, you know, for somebody else. So that's really what I choose to stay is about. It's about just the work of teachers and administrators out here who are making a difference. We go and recognize. And my story is not about one exceptional educator leader. There are thousands and thousands of them out there every day. You know, you're on the front lines, you see what these teachers are doing, and especially at the high school level, because you know, I can imagine what it's like with you know I have 13 and 14 years old. I can imagine 15, 16, 17. You know, that's gotta be an adventure. But you know, but you're still doing the work, you're still a blesser and not a stressor for young people. And um, and that's really what I wanted that book to do. And and here I am, six books. I'm on book number six now, was just published a few months ago. Proud and honored that I was able to sort of spearhead and be a part of the movement to recognize and thank these teachers and leaders out here who are making that choice to stay. Because these are some challenging times, sir, as you know, very challenging times for educators, but they make that choice and show up every day for our young people.

Principal JL: 27:30

You bet. Yeah, you're no, no joke, it is a challenging time, especially in public education, where you know you kind of hear all the negativity out there in the in the media, and you're just like, and I'm sitting here at home going like, really? Like it's not that bad, it's not as bad as you guys make it out to be. I want to like call up the news stations and be like, dude, knock it off. Like, you're not helping us, you're not helping us at all. And it just drives me nuts that they would say all these negative things about public education. But when it comes down to it, that's why you know, for the high school, we are really strong about you know, sharing our narrative, what's going on? What are the great things that are happening at our school and sharing it out on social media, letting our parents know our community knows so they can rally behind it. So when there is a negative thing about the school, we have all these positive things that we can we can talk about and say, you know what, for the most part, 95%, 99% of the time, we're doing great things at this school. And so you want to be able to share your story as a as a principal as a school. And I have a great social media team that does that. So that's something we really focus on because we know and hear the narratives out there about public education, and that's our way to kind of equalize that as well. So you've been a principal for a while, you know, been 39 years in education, you know, teacher, assistant principal, principal. There's a lot of proud moments for you. Is there one that sticks out the most? You know, as a principal, is there something that accomplishment that you're most proud of, or are they all, you know, proud of all of them the same?

Principal EL: 29:10

There are just so many. You know, I won principal a year in Philadelphia, and I was awarded, I was given the award by my former high school teacher and principal, who was then the superintendent of the school district. So my former teacher was now the superintendent, and she was giving her former student the award as the top principal in the district. So that was a great honor for me. I was also selected in 2006 by Philadelphia Magazine, uh, which is the largest magazine you know in the city as the best Philadelphian. So they do this top restaurants in Philly, top doctors, top lawyers, but they pick one person in the city as like the best person that represents Philadelphia. In 2006, I was a Prince Middle School principal there, and they selected little old me as the best Philadelphian. And um at the time, I just went to spend the weekend with Will Smith because we were trying to get Will to play me in the movie when Disney bought the movie right, so I choose to stay. And uh and word had gotten around the city that you know I've been hanging out with Will Smith in LA and that kind of thing. Because Will, you know, Will's a Philly guy too. But uh there have just been so many moments, you know, going to the graduation and seeing those kids graduate, you know, you know, walking into different places and seeing kids, you know, working. It just lets you know that listen, I planted it, I planted a tree whose shade I may never enjoy. And for that reason, I'm a better person. And I know world, the world's, you know, a better place. So it's a great feeling to be able to see those young people. Meeting amazing people on social media like you, you know, and then being able to see you in conferences and things like that. I think that's another like highlight, proud moment for me when I get to meet people that I meet, educators, you know, on social media and get to meet them, you know, on the screen or you know, in person. Those are proud moments, you know, as well. And then of course, with my chess teams are winning national titles, you know, it's it's a great, great feeling to see those students, you know. Make those accomplishments because many times often they doubt themselves. You know, I think that was one thing that surprised me is how many young people just lack that confidence in believing that they are enough. So, as educators, you know, we that's a role we fill in just letting young people know, building them up, lifting up, elevating them to understand that you know they are enough, that they can be powerful, they can be great, they can be successful, and they don't have they don't have to wait until later to be greater. You can be great right now, today. Just keep working hard, you know, and keep pushing. So I've been principal for 25 years, sir. And it has been a long and arduous journey for me, but it's one I don't regret at all. And I tell people all the time that as a principal, we bring the joy to school. And there's no other job where you walk into the building and everybody wants your attention, everybody calls your name, everybody just needs a moment. You got a minute, you got a minute, because you have become that person. You you create that culture where they know you care and they know that you'll do everything you can to try to help solve any issue you know they have. So it's it's been an honor, you know, and a blessing, and to be on this journey with you. And you know, sometimes we text and email and share some of the things we have going on in our schools. It's just great to have that connection with other principals and other leaders in the country as well.

Principal JL: 32:42

Yeah, I really appreciate all the people that I've connected with on this journey of really taking my podcast to the next level. And it's something I really started dedicating myself December of last year. And I've just met so many different people from all walks of life, from all over the country, and I've learned something from every single guest that's been on this show that I can actually go, you know what? That's a great idea. Maybe that's something I can apply at the position I'm at as a principal. And so let's talk about you know, one of those things that you talk about school success, you talk about the four C's. What is the four C's and how can that impact schools?

Principal EL: 33:24

Yeah, those four C's, I've been talking about the four C's for years, and they actually are the foundation for my new book, Meet Their Needs, and and they'll succeed. And and I I believe that you're crazy about kids, curious about their lives outside of school, uh, consistent adults in their lives, and then a culture of love and joy and support. And that first C being crazy about kids, that's just the connection. That's that's the relationship. That's that's that kids don't learn from people they don't like. You know, that's that C where it's like, hey, what do you need? The guy. I'm the one that's gonna make it happen for you. Now, I'm gonna make it hard on you now, so it's easy on you later in life. So it's not gonna be easy, but I'm gonna support you. I have high expectations for you, but I'm gonna support you and be there for you. That curiosity is important because curiosity is the key to learning. So curious about their lives outside of school. That's that culturally competent educator, that trauma-informed educator that wants to know about that student. Where do you come from? What's your culture? What's your family like? Like, what do you do? What are your interests? Because I'm going to design my lessons in class, and my school's gonna be designed so that you're interested and engaged in school on a daily basis. And then we have that consistency, right? Because that curiosity is important because you know the impact of an educator is not based on the ability, our ability to teach, but rather our ability to learn and be curious. But then we've got to be consistent with that because those students lack that oftentimes in their lives. So they don't need to be in a school with it principal after principal after principal, teacher after teacher after teacher in the same classroom in one year. They need to see the same adults there for them. And then we need to be consistent in how we support them, how we discipline them, how we love them, um, how we communicate with them, because that gives them that sense of security, that safety, that predictability is important. And then lastly, that culture, that positive school culture, that love, that lifting them up, that empowering those young people, creating that agency for them so they can advocate for themselves and one another, but also so they develop that empathy and understanding and kindness. And that's the kind of culture, that's that joyful and resilient school culture our young people need. And and those four C's are the foundation, really, you know, of my book. Everything is rooted in how are we connecting with those young people, being creative and curious for them, consistent with them, and then that culture where those students are knocking the door down to get in instead of knocking the door down to get out.

Principal JL: 36:24

Awesome. I really love that. The four C's. I when I was reading through it and learning about it, I'm like going, yeah, this makes sense. This is something that resonates, and this doesn't matter where you're at. Like, if you're in a public education, you use these four C's, they will help you transform your school. So I really appreciate you sharing the four C's with us today. So let's talk about a little bit of your new book. You kind of alluded to it a little bit, meet their needs and they'll succeed. Really, what do you want people to take away from this book when they read it? This is your new one, one that's been out for about what, six months or so? So about six months or so. So, what what's the big takeaway you want people to get from this book?

Principal EL: 37:08

I want I wrote this book because I really wanted teachers, leaders, parents, community members. I wanted them to see that our students can be successful when the right adult makes that choice to stay in their lives. And and and in the book, I open up the book with the story because you know, a few years ago on Father's Day, I'm sitting in the hospital, right? Not at home eating dinner with my family. I'm in a hospital getting an emergency appendectomy. And I'm in the hospital, and these nurses are caring, then they're waking me up every two hours with medication, you know, just checking on me and whatnot, checking my vitals, but they're caring for me. And I said to myself, Wow, this is what every kid needs. Here I am in a hospital making an association with what we need in schools, because every child needs like someone who's like a nurse who can just care. Now, those now, my night nurse was amazing. That nurse during the day, she was a little rough with me. So I said, you know, that that's an issue that these because these young people that go from teacher to teacher to teacher, everyone won't be the same. Some will be like my night nurse, some will be like my nurse in the daytime. But one of the things I took note of that every one of those nurses could close that curtain, Jeff, and just work with me. Our teachers can't do that, they've got to treat their patients in front of all of the other patients in the classroom. So that's why teachers have to be so creative and down there. There's so many demands and stresses on them on a daily basis. So, as a principal, imagine trying to support somebody who has to, you know, do so well on so many different levels. But I just said that this that inspired me to write the book. That I've I'm gonna write a book just talking about how meeting the needs, meeting the needs of these young people has to be paramount for us as teachers and leaders. And so I talk about the four C's, I talk about you know, just the trauma in the lives of young people that carrying these backpacks with so much in it that we never see. They may never share with us. And uh, and each chapter begins with a story. You know, in my trauma chapter, I talk about this kid Bones Highland, who, you know, was a tough kid, struggled in uh in our school and good basketball player. Um, had a fire in high school, had to jump out of the window, shattered his knee. Doctors told him he'd never play ball again. He came back, rehabbed himself, scored 50 points in three straight high school games. None of the college has recruited him because he he he was injured. So he went to VCU player of the year. Denver Nuggets drafted him. The Lakers didn't draft and they passed him over. He scored 27 points on LeBron James. You know, and I'm like, this is what our kids can do. We just gotta support them, we gotta believe in them. And I've got a great chapter on joyful, engaging, and challenging classrooms, and one on critical thinking, and one on community support and after school programs because that's a pillar that we don't often talk about, how important those after-school programs are, but also those community partners. And then I close the book out with choosing to stay. Like, how can we support educators in making that choice? And I think I really wrote that chapter in the book to inspire just one educator to just say, I can continue to do this. There's some young person that wants to become a teacher, and if I keep going, they might make that decision to to uh to do that. So the book is filled with, you know, I got some of my jokes, my rhymes in there, got some great stories, but it's really all about trying to encourage adults to engage our young people and support them and believe in them until they believe in themselves.

Principal JL: 41:47

Awesome. I I love the the book and the premise of it and everything that goes along with it because really you're speaking to the educators of today, you're speaking to the people of hey, we know this job is hard. We know you're gonna, this is gonna be, you're gonna have some ups and downs. We're gonna have good times, we're gonna have not so great times. But if you choose to stay, just know it's worth it. If it's it's something that you impact kids for the rest of your life. And some of my favorite stories as an educator is when I get that email, I get that Facebook message, I get that letter, I get those messages from the kids that say, Coach Linden or Principal JL, this is what you did to impact my life, and I am better because of it. And thank you. And those are the reasons why I stay in education because you know, even though you don't think about it at the time, you're impacting young lives, and you don't realize how much you're impacting them until years down the road. I'm in my 19th year of education, and so I know I've impacted kids, but I don't get to hear it all the time about how I've done that, and when you do, it's like the best feeling in the world, and one of the reasons why I continue the work I do, and I truly just love what I do, and I just love what you do as well. So, Principal EL, we're gonna have aspiring leaders listening to this episode. What is something that you would like to tell somebody that's thinking about getting into the principalship? What advice would you give them?

Principal EL: 43:24

Aspiring leaders, I'm gonna look into this camera right now and tell you run as fast as you can, run as fast as you can. No, but seriously, I'm gonna say to you, this is the best work you could ever do. It's not now hear me clearly, it's not easy work, but it's good work. It's I often say it's God's work because these children will keep you on your toes and your knees every day, but they will come and they will thank you. And um, some of the I mean, I have some, you know, we have some young people, they'll give an aspirin a headache, but I'm telling you now, later on in life, when they see you, they will run through the mall, run through the supermarket, wherever you are, and say, You are my teacher, you are my principal, they'll find you. So, what I want to say to you is that leadership is about service. So, if you take on this job of leader, know that your most important role and duty will be to serve others. Leadership is about service. If you don't serve, you can't leave. And if you can't lead, and if service is beneath you, leadership will be beyond you. If you hold on to that and know that you are there to serve others, now I want you to celebrate yourself too. Don't please don't lose our guys. I often say to leaders, forgive yourself, be kind to yourself, and celebrate yourselves. But I also please understand that you are there to take care of others. It's an honor and a privilege to be chosen to take care of others. And and I I walk in that light every day. And I say to you, you know, welcome to the profession. Find you a mentor. You have mentors out there with all of us. We're out there, you know, create your network on social media. You mentioned earlier, Jeff, about sharing the story of your school. That's powerful. You know, you you get find you a team and make sure you are promoting the positive stories about your school, control that narrative. But if you want, if you're an aspiring leader, please know that this work is hard work, it's good work. Find you a mentor and uh and dig in because there's no other job like it, and you will you will be rewarded, you know, for it. So please, we welcome you. We need you, we need you.

Principal JL: 45:47

Too bad. Hey, I love that advice for sure. I know a lot of people out there that are thinking about doing it. Yes, it's hard work, but it's very rewarding work as well. Because that's where, like, for me, getting into the principalship is how can I have a bigger impact? And one way to do that is to become a principal because now you're setting the culture, you're setting setting the example, you're modeling, you're you're setting the culture of your school from your seat, and you really are working and collaborating with everybody to do that. And I guess that's one of the hardest parts to do, but also the most rewarding part when you see the successes that happen because of those things that you do.

Principal EL: 46:30

So and one more thing, and one more thing I think's important that I don't want to miss is I want them to also embrace learning. When you become a leading principal, assistant principal, whatever your role is, don't think that you can't learn anymore. You will learn from those people in your school, you will learn from those in your central office, you will learn from your experiences, you will learn from the children, you will learn from the professional development, but you're always a learner, and once you embrace that, it's easy to deal with the mistakes because you know you're always learning. So I want to make sure I let them know that create that learning culture and you be the key learner in your building.

Principal JL: 47:09

You bet. And I love that as well. That's something that, as principal, as a building principal, I have to continue to get better because if I'm asking my teachers to get better, which I'm asking my students to get better, guess who else has to get better?

Principal EL: 47:22

I do. Amen.

Principal JL: 47:23

And that's what I love about this podcast because it's free professional development. Yes, sir. You know, people can get on and listen and you know learn something from great people like Principal EL here. So, Principal EL, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate that time we have here. Do you have anything that's coming up that's exciting for you? And you know, to end it off, how could people get connected with you?

Principal EL: 47:50

No, I'm just uh I'm just working hard every day in the trenches with these young people and my staff and my staff members. If they want to find me, then my website is principal el.com, principalel.com. I'm also on social media, Facebook Principal L, Instagram, a Dr. Principal L. I'm on X, uh I'm on uh LinkedIn and Dr. Salome Thomas EL. So you can find me. As a matter of fact, if one of your listeners finds me on social media and lets me know they heard me on the show and can send me a message repeating, stating something I said, I'm gonna autograph a new book or send it to them, sir. I'm gonna autograph Principal el.com. You find me and I will take care of you because I want to encourage you to stay in there, stay in there as a leader. I got a couple other books, passionate leadership, they'll read about that on my on the website, Building a Winning Team, Retention for Change, all kinds of leadership books, but I but they all focus on the same thing, and that's being able to elevate others. I want to be able to do that. So you find me and I'm gonna send you a book.

Principal JL: 48:59

All right. I hope you guys hear that challenge, a call to action there. Find Principal EL and he'll autograph that book for you and send it your way. And so that's really awesome. I love the challenge. I mean, I haven't had a guest do that yet.

Principal EL: 49:11

And so the only thing, Jeff, they have to be listening because they've got to tell you something that you and I talked about tonight. That's the case.

Principal JL: 49:20

Well, they won't hear it until the end of this episode. So hopefully they listen all the way through. So here we go. All right, all right. Hey, Principal EL, it's great. It was an honor to have you on the show. I really appreciate it. All things, Principal EL. I'm gonna have them in the show notes for you so it makes it easy for them to find you. So, you know, in the show notes so they can message you and get that autograph book. So, Principal EL, it's great having you. Have a great night. Thank you.

Principal EL: 49:48

It's a great time. God, good, God bless you. Good night.

Principal JL: 49:51

What a conversation with Principal EL. I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. This episode was packed with a lot of insights from Principal EL and his 39 years of experience. If this episode resonates with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss another episode like this one when it drops. Until next time, be curious and 1%.