IW 165: Interview Genny Brusegan Conte Part 1: Interpreting Conditions-Still a Process

Seven? 7?! In one country?! Really?!

I talk with Genny Brusegan Conte from Italy about the Italian Sign Language profession. We start with its history, the organizations, working conditions, pay, and much more.

Enjoy this eye-opening perspective and stay tuned for the upcoming episodes with Genny from Italy.

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Transcript

IW 165: Interview Genny Brusegan Conte Part 1: Interpreting Conditions-Still a Process

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day…

00:00:37 Tim

One of my favorite astronomers is Galileo Galilei and today's quote is from him. “To be humane, we must ever be ready to pronounce that wise, ingenious, and modest statement, ‘I do not know.’”

00:00:57 Tim

There are many things we don't know, which means we are all ignorant, ignorant of many perspectives, ideas, experiences.

00:01:07 Tim

And every interview I learn something new, things I did not know, sometimes there are things that I think I know.

00:01:16 Tim

But I find out during the process of talking with colleagues and friends around the world that things are not exactly the way I thought.

00:01:25 Tim

Today our colleague Genny Brusegan Conte from Italy explains a very complex, complicated scenario that happens to be the sign language interpreting profession, in Italy. At least, that's my first impression.

00:01:45 Tim

I still don't know everything, still don't understand it all.

00:01:49 Tim

But she gives us new insight on how the working conditions evolved and how they continue to develop in her home of Italy.

00:02:00 Tim

So, grab your plate of pasta or your espresso.

00:02:04 Tim

And let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:19 Tim

My guest today is Genny Brusegan Conte.

00:02:23 Tim

She is an Italian sign language interpreter from, of course, Italy. She's been within the interpreting profession for quite some time. She is a former efsli board member…

00:02:37 Tim

(That's the European Forum of Sign Language Interpreters.)

00:02:40 Tim

…as well as former board member of her own National Association of Sign Language interpreters in Italy, she has also been well. She's been involved in the sign language profession advocacy for professionalism for many years, and we will hear more about that and more about her today on the podcast.

00:03:03 Tim

So welcome, Genny. Thank you for coming on the podcast today.

00:03:07 Genny

Thank you, Tim, for inviting me. I'm so glad to be here today.

00:03:12 Genny

And maybe I will, I will give you some or share with the others some information regarding, I mean, my story and the, the situation initially, how it is about the interpreting profession.

00:03:24 Tim

Oh, definitely. I will ask you many, many questions. And let's start in general, talking about the sign language interpreting profession in Italy and what it looks like there. So…

00:03:37 Tim

As always, I'm sure sign language interpreters are in high demand.

00:03:41 Tim

What is the ratio between sign language interpreters and sign language users or the Deaf community in Italy.

00:03:49 Genny

Well, I don't have an exact ratio to start with, [chuckles] but I will explain that. So, the point is that here in Italy the service is not provided by the government yet. [Tim: hmm] So, since the beginning we had a very varied education also for the interpreters. So that's why we don't have a number an exact number of members in Italy. So, what happens in the story, let's say is that year by year starting from the 2013 more or less we had a law…

00:04:25 Genny

Which started to ask of those professional organizations which were organized into association to be somehow regulated. So, it was not only related to interpreters, but it was also related to some other professions. So, from that point on, let's say…

00:04:44 Genny

All the freelancers who were not part of any kind of association started a little bit to enter into some of those which were already there.

00:04:55 Genny

Then, in 2021, we had a law which actually recognized not only lists some of the Italian Sign language, but also the interpreting profession. So, from that point on, all the interpreters were obliged to be part of an association. So nowadays we can have…

00:05:16 Genny

I mean.

00:05:17 Genny

Quite a, let's say specific number, but it's not really official, let's say, because all the associations should state in their website how many members they are, they have. But we are like in the process of updating the data. Let's say that…

00:05:36 Genny

…more or less…

00:05:37 Genny

We should be around 1,000 - 1200, but the number is not exact. The ratio - they say that the population in general we have one Deaf up to 1000 people.

00:05:52 Genny

So, that's how [chuckles] it should be. In any case, the demand, of course, is much more than what we can offer. The point is that if the service is not organized on a regular basis or is not provided regularly by the government, then it means that it is the Deaf person himself or herself who need to hire to interpret for private services or for other situations.

00:06:20 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:06:21 Genny

While if you have a public services now, they are kind of implementing but it depends on the each and every institution, if they want to provide the service or not. It's not something which is nationwide provided, let's say.

00:06:40 Genny

It's increasing since the 2021 law, but still, we have some hiccups, and this goes back to the, let's say, situation of the interpreters. So, we historically had two main associations in Italy.

00:06:57 Genny

Which were ANIOS and ANIMU and both of them were founded in 1987. So first of all was ANIOS and then later, a bit later it was ANIMU.

00:07:12 Genny

And after this law of the 2021, well, a little bit before, in 2020, all the other associations started to be founded and that was because the law obliged people to be part of an association in order to be recognized in order to have the interpreters who already had some kind of qualifications to work, to continue working.

00:07:37 Genny

Nowadays, this law has been implemented into several decrees and a recent decree which started in 2025, is now also structuring how education should be for the interpreters.

00:07:52 Genny

Before we had several types of trainings with several lengths, with several contents organized by different kinds of institutions, some of them were at academic levels, some others not.

00:08:07 Genny

Uh, we had some private institutions who have, which have, uh, lots of experience in the field, others maybe a little bit less, but now the point was to try to standardize also the training of the interpreters.

00:08:25 Genny

And at the moment, from this recent decree, we are on the way of experimenting, [slightly chuckles] let's say, because they started these courses, which are now experimental phase, and we have three years training course at academic level which is a kind of BA, professionalizing BA, let's say. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:08:52 Genny

Or the other option is again, still keeping the private institutions, but the private institution should be able to, to show the experience they have of a minimum of ten years of experience in training interpreters, uh, with also Deaf teachers, Deaf collaborators inside to be involved into the program, into the educational interpreters. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And they should also comply with UNI and ISO norms in order to I mean be able to show their quality level, let's say. But we are, I mean in our experimental phase, especially for the universities, because they started up this new programs.

00:09:42 Genny

And we don't know yet what the results of these programs will be. So, they are going to, I think graduate during this year, the first ones from that program. [Tim: hmm]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:09:59 Tim

OK, wow, a lot of information. [Genny laughs: Yeah] It does sound complicated from the outside, so let me try to go back to what you just said and kind of piece it out and make it a little clearer.

00:10:14 Tim

So first you said in 1987 is when the first two organizations were founded.

00:10:21 Genny

Mm-hmm.

00:10:22 Tim

But you mentioned other organizations are there more than two?

00:10:26 Genny

Yeah. At the moment we are at seven.

00:10:28 Tim

Oh, only seven, OK. [jokingly]

00:10:30 Genny

Only seven, yes. [both laughing] Only seven.

00:10:32 Genny

Definitely only seven.

00:10:35 Tim

Are they sign language interpreting organizations or are they Deaf organizations or?

00:10:41 Genny

Uh, OK, I'll try to simplify. [Tim: Mm-hmm] So historically, as I said, ANIOS was the first association which was founded because in that years, in those years, colleagues understood that there was a necessity to...

00:11:02 Genny

…set some kind of network, uh, among the, the interpreters, who were, I mean, working at those times that - who of course, had maybe partial education, were mainly CODAs, [Tim: Mm-hmm] etcetera, etcetera, so but there was starting some kind of awareness of the profession. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:11:20 Genny

Umm, and this was completely independent from the Deaf club and from the Deaf Association, so it was completely on the other side because there was this necessity to separate somehow the professional role from the assistant’s role, [Tim: right] but I think this is something very common to also all the other countries.

00:11:45 Genny

Just after that, so after some months, not even a year, [Tim: Mm-hmm] another association was founded, which was ANIMU, and ANIMU was inside the Deaf Association. So, it was kind of spin off of the Deaf association in which somehow there are more connections with the, the Deaf club.

00:12:09 Genny

But then after some years they also, I mean, became independent and that lasted for, I mean, more than 20 years [Tim: Mm-hmm] because I mean we were the only two associations in the territory. So those who wanted to be part of an association. They could either ask to be part of ANIOS or to be part of ANIMU.

00:12:32 Genny

Both of us had some kind of entry task for the, uh, members because as I told you, this depends on the fact that we had such a variety of education courses that we also were aware of the fact that the quality was really very varied of the people who applied. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:51 Genny

So, since, I mean, I can talk especially for the perspective of ANIOS because I've, I've always been a member of ANIOS and I know how it works inside.

00:13:05

We've always really wanted to keep the standard very high, so the entry test was quite strict. [Tim: Mm-hmm] But there wasn’t at that time, there was... It was not compulsory to be part of any association, so the majority of the people who actually qualified from whatever kind of course was not really obliged to be part of any of them. So, most of the freelancers actually worked independently. OK.

00:13:35 Genny

And this was, I mean, this lasted for many years. That's why we don't have really a track of how many we've been in these years. So how many, I mean professionals, we have outside there. Then it happened that we had this law of the 2021 which recognized sign language in a period in which we were, I mean, in the COVID pandemic.

00:13:56 Genny

So, we're finally they realized we have interpreters and we… [Tim chuckling] and that the Deaf community needed some kind of services public services to be, I mean, were informed about what was happening around them.

00:14:09 Genny

And it also in the same law, it is actually recognized the sign language interpreter and the tactile sign language interpreter as if they were completely different professions. [both chuckling a bit] But OK, never mind, this is something peculiar again, but still, I mean, it's interesting.

00:14:29 Genny

But this had, as a consequence, not only the fact that that law had the goal to set up some kind of standards…

00:14:40 Genny

But you had also to regulate all the mess we had in the meantime, because we had so many people working and being qualified somehow, but who had to be recognized as professionals and who weren't recognized yet officially. So that's why we needed to welcome all these people into the associations, which was this, like, uh, transition phase. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:15:07 Genny

We got couple of years, couple or three years, as a transition phase in order to, I mean, collect all the other people who were not part of any association to be part of the association. So, in these two years, let's say also ANIOS implemented their members, but not only us, also ANIMU.

00:15:33 Genny

And at the same time other associations were founded, [Tim: Mm-hmm] and other associations were founded also because in the same historical period there was a big discussion concerning how to frame Deaf interpreters into the associations. [Tim: hmm]

00:15:53 Genny

Because some of us were not really...

00:15:57 Genny

I mean, were not clarifying it, it in the statute. So, it was not yet a professional role, which was, I mean we knew, of course that we had Deaf interpreters, but it was not stated in the documents, let's say, and this took some time to update those documents.

00:16:18 Genny

While others, I mean other associations which were founded in those years, immediately put it so. So, it was kind of really of transition phase and nowadays all of the associations of course, are also open to the welcoming of Deaf interpreters.

00:16:33 Genny

Some ask for minimum qualifications; some others are more flexible. [Tim: Mm-hmm] But well, let's say that it's open to also to Deaf professionals that if they are willing to join the, the associations, knowing the peculiarities of each one of them.

00:16:53 Genny

So, that’s why probably after 2021 or in those years we had these implementations of associations because they were different needs and they were maybe trying to encounter all the different needs we had on the territory. [Tim: hmm, yeah, mm-hmm]

00:17:09 Genny

[chuckles] So it's kind of summarizing quite a complex situation, let's say.

00:17:16 Tim

OK, I'll try not to go more complicated, but so the first two ANIOS and ANIMU, those were nationwide.

00:17:25 Genny

All of them are nationwide. [Tim: All of them? Uh-huh.] All of them are nationwide.

00:17:30 Genny

Let's say that historically at the beginning, you know, as I think it happened in all the other countries, the majority of the interpreters were concentrated in the main cities. So in Rome or in Milan or in the South, so…

00:17:46 Genny

In the main city centers, then they became nationwide.

00:17:50 Genny

So, again, both ANIOS and ANIMU are nationwide, well, have been nationwide historically.

00:17:57 Genny

But also, the newcomers, I mean the new associations which were founded as well, they are nationwide, some of them may be are much more concentrated in one area because they they've been set up in that city or whatever, but they have members, maybe a few but they have them, I mean, nationwide. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:18:19 Genny

So, it's not something regional, [Tim: Mm-hmm] it's actually something national for all of them. [Tim: OK.]

00:18:28 Tim

You say they are funded. Does that mean that the interpreter gets their job through the association?

00:18:37 Genny

Again, that's quite a sensitive issue, [Tim laughs: ahh] if I may say.

00:18:45 Genny

Because let's say that I know that in some countries the National Association is also kind of agency forward interpreters for their members.

00:18:57 Genny

But I mean in here, politics and relationships between the associations, the political institutions, the Deaf Club, etcetera, etcetera have been quite complicated in the years. There are some associations which decided to be completely neutral so didn't want to be an agency as well.

00:19:23 Genny

So, they just wanted to take care of the advocacy of the interpreting profession [Tim: Mm-hmm] in order not to, I mean, have different caps in different situations.

00:19:31 Genny

Others maybe have inside spin-off, in which they also have agency, and they also give working opportunities to their members.

00:19:42 Genny

But while it's up to the different associations to decide what their goals are or what do they prefer to do for their member.

00:19:53 Genny

As far as I'm talking for ANIOS, we've always tried to be as neutral as possible, so we've always told to our members. We're not an agency. So if you are joining ANIOS, you do not expect us to give you jobs opportunities, [Tim: Mm-hmm] but expect us to lobby for advocacy and for recognition of some professional rights.

00:20:14 Tim

Mm-hmm.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:20:16 Tim

Are you wondering how an interpreter podcaster gets paid? Well, we don't, except by donations from interpreters like you. There are a lot of costs involved in making a podcast, and that is paid by myself or through donations from listeners. Please consider Buying Me A Coffee to help keep this going for the many interpreters around the world who are struggling to make a living as a sign language interpreter. Share the passion of our profession in this simple way. Click on the links in the show notes or go to buymeacoffee.com and search for Interpreter’s Workshop. Thank you. Now let's go back so then.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:21:00 Tim

So then, that begs the question, how does the sign language interpreter get their jobs and who pays them? And can you make a living?

00:21:09 Genny

That's an interesting question. And Tim, [chuckles] I just would like to tell you that I'm just like going to one part, but I'm going back to answer your question. [Tim: sure] So, at the moment I'm attending a postgraduate course [Tim: Mm-hmm] and we're going to have our final discussion in October.

00:21:30 Genny

The program we are doing is at international level and some, but some of the participants are mainly from Italy, so all of us are trying to research finally because we haven't had any kind of research regarding interpreting field so far.

00:21:48 Genny

So, they are, they will be the first, let's say, uh information regarding that and my research especially is going to deal with your question. So, if sign language interpreting profession will be sustainable or not? [Tim: Mm-hmm] For what I could gather so far because I'm in the, in the phase of analyzing the data…

00:22:07 Genny

I can say that just a very small percentage of the interpreting population can make a living on the interpreting profession. [Tim: hmm] While the majority either work part time or work occasionally as interpreters.

00:22:26 Genny

Umm, this means that probably they have another profession to make a living.

00:22:34 Genny

Or, maybe they just chose to do part time because maybe they have any other kind of income. The point is that normally, as I said, since the service is not provided regularly by the government, so the government recognizes, at least, recognizes the profession but is not implementing the services automatically.

00:22:55 Genny

It means that…

00:22:57 Genny

Since the very beginning, it's the Deaf person or the Deaf Club who needs to provide the service for whatever kind of reasons they may have. [Tim: hmm] Of course they get a pension from the state, they can use it for communication purposes, but this is not enough, of course, because the communication means whatever, [it] can mean also hearing aids or batteries or whatever. So, the point is that after this recognition, we had somehow some kind of increasing awareness of also the public administration to provide the service.

00:23:39 Genny

But it's up to the single administration to have or to keep some funds to have the service being provided and for example, I'm thinking about the healthcare system. So, for… There are some hospitals…

00:23:55 Genny

I’m not even saying at regional level or at province level, there are some. (We have these associations of hospitals.) Maybe there are some municipalities that are bunched together in the territory and so they are headed up by some directors.

00:24:13 Genny

So, if that municipality, let's say, all, all hospitals, I don't know the exact name, sorry in English [chuckles], but just to give you an idea, they decide to provide the service, then they can get in touch with some agencies which provide provided maybe remotely or…

00:24:33 Genny

Uh, they have some maybe agreements with the Deaf club. And the Deaf Club then get in contact with… But each and every region is very, very varied. You can't see that result – standard way to get or to hire your interpreter at the national level.

00:24:54 Genny

There are some services which are organized by the National Association, the Deaf National Association, that are services remotely, from VRS. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:25:07 Genny

So, some interpreters maybe are hired there, but they are not.

00:25:12 Genny

UM, how can I say they are contractualized, but maybe their contract is renovated every year or it's not like long term or permanent job or… [Tim: yeah]

00:25:24 Genny

Otherwise, you have your own clients, you just have maybe clients that you're used to work with, or associations you're usually, you're used to work with. And then you create your portfolio of clients. [Tim: I see.] But it's something that you set up on your own. 

00:25:44 Genny

So it takes, of course, some energy opportunities because then working in a city center is not the same as working in a village. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And from what I could see also from my data so far… I mean of course those working close to Rome or close to Milan are the colleagues who, I mean have of course, much more opportunities and who can make a living of the profession.

00:26:11 Genny

And those who are already, I mean working or living in a, in a part of Italy which is not really well, not “well connected”, but let's say do not have either a very huge Deaf community in there or do not have so many events or administrations who are like open to make the services accessible. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Then it's harder, of course. [Tim: Yeah. Yeah.] So, it's, it's a really tricky question because I think, I think that…

00:26:47 Genny

I mean, it's improving. I won't say that if I compare how I started in 2008 and how it is nowadays, I can see that there are much more services which are accessible than before, but still, it's not full accessibility for the Community. I mean if a person goes to the municipality or the local municipality, or if he needs to go to the police or if he needs to go to the hospital, it depends. [Tim: Mm-hmm] I mean, you never know if you will get the service or not. Otherwise, if you want to be sure, you need to take it with you and then you go. [Tim: hmm]

00:27:24 Tim

Right.

00:27:26 Tim

Not complicated at all, OK?

00:27:27 Genny

No, no. [both laughing] Yeah, the pay is again very varied. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:27:38 Genny

Because you can have hourly fees, and the hourly fees can also vary depending on the region you are from or the client [Tim: Mm-hmm] you're working for. Because we try to keep, let's say, a minimum [both slightly chuckle] which can cover it still, it's still, at least the expenses. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:28:00 Genny

But, uhh,…

00:28:02 Genny

Again, it, it can really vary from region to region, from city to city and from kind of service to kind of service.

00:28:11 Genny

And uh, and that's another really weak point because we are trying to again, when I think about the advocacy and lobbying etcetera, etcetera.

00:28:23 Genny

When I was a board member, we tried to also get in contact with many other spoken language associations because we wanted to get to know their standards, to know how they train, to know how they, what were the average fees.

00:28:44 Genny

Etcetera, etcetera. And we realized how far behind we were.

00:28:49 Genny

So we kept on trying to get close to them, but it's still a process. Let’ say. [chuckles] [Tim: Mm-hmm, yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:29:02 Tim

Talking with Genny gives us all a new perspective on our own working conditions. It helps us understand that we don't work in a bubble or rather, I guess we do work in a bubble. We live in a bubble at times, thinking the world is this bubble. We forget about other people's bubbles.

00:29:20 Tim

It's great to be bubbly and happy and joyous, but sometimes we need to pop the bubble and look outside into other people's bubbles. I think I'll stop saying bubble now. Yes, I will.

00:29:34 Tim

So many things we do not know. Seven sign language interpreter organizations in one country. The working conditions are not quite ideal, but they do it. They continue. They still have the passion for the profession, but sometimes it's not enough.

00:29:54 Tim

We have to find the passion outside, seeking others, seeking a way to make it worthwhile.

00:29:59 Tim

How do you do that? One way I do it is talking with other sign language interpreters, sharing the stories, understanding their perspective, learning their perspective, finding a way to make my perspective makes sense. Next week we learn more of the Italian Sign language interpreter profession, with Genny.

00:30:19 Tim

Until then, keep calm. Keep… I don't know… interpreting? I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:31:04]