IW 178: Interview Allyson Morgan Part 2: Time to Grow with Culture Mapping or Marmite

You love it or you hate it.

Yes, it's Culture Mapping, not Marmite. But it is a "sticky subject" to discuss.

We continue the conversation with Allyson Morgan as she explains the Culture Map developed by Erin Myers. These eight dimensions are a tool for sign language interpreters to improve our approach to our work and to our professional journey.

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Transcript

IW 178: Interview Allyson Morgan Part 2: Time to Grow with Culture Mapping or Marmite

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Peter Greenaway, Welsh director, screenwriter and artist.

00:00:43 Tim

“I've always been fascinated by maps and cartography. A map tells you where you've been, where you are, and where you're going. In a sense, it's three tenses in one.”

00:00:56 Tim

Today we finish our conversation with Allyson Morgan. Originally from Wales, now living in Germany.

00:01:05 Tim

Today we look into the “Cultural Map”, a book by Erin Myers.

00:01:10 Tim

Which teaches us how to interact with one another from different countries, different backgrounds, different languages.

00:01:19 Tim

We can use this discussion to understand how it impacts sign language interpreters.

00:01:26 Tim

And we look at how to use this mindset of cultural mapping in our daily lives.

00:01:34 Tim

So, if you're curious and fascinated on how to use the map on your journey as a sign language interpreter, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:48 Tim

So, tell me a little bit about that. What, where does cultural mapping come from? How did you start using it and how can it help?

00:01:58 Allyson

OK, so there's a fantastic book. Sometimes you read a book which kind of creates another shift, which is amazing, and this is a book called the Culture Map by Erin Meyer, who's a US citizen, who lives in France.

00:02:13 Allyson

And she talks about in her book eight dimensions. I'll just give you a few. So, communication and trust, persuasion, leadership, decision making there's eight in total. And she talks about how these dimensions are used in the workplace with your teams and how cultures approach them differently.

00:02:37 Allyson

So, she talks about in her brilliant book the Culture Map, how to understand these dimensions can really ellevate your teamwork because, for example, let's give you one example from one of the eight dimensions.

00:02:52 Allyson

Let's talk about communication. Communication the most, one of the most important ones. So, there are different communication cultures. There's the low context and the high context communication. So low context is really saying it how it is. Talking at face value, using simple, direct and explicit communication.

00:03:11 Allyson

And there's a high context communications which will use more nuance.

00:03:17 Allyson

And depending on, you know the makeup of your team, so say you had a team of somebody from the US, from the UK, from Germany, India, China, Japan, six people. Those six people come from both low context and high context communication cultures and there's like, and what's what she's done is she's done a spectrum as well.

00:03:36 Allyson

So, not everybody lives on the same spectrum.

00:03:39 Tim

You mean for example two cultures are high context, they wouldn't necessarily be at the same point on the spectrum.

00:03:46 Allyson

That’s right. On a 1 to 20, the US is the most low context communication culture. They’d be on 1.

00:03:52 Allyson

And Japan is on #20. So maybe then Germany will be on 3. UK’d be on 6. India’d be on, I don't know, 17. China’d be on 18. So, you've got all these different communication styles in one meeting, what she does with her book, she gives you insights on how different cultures communicate.

00:04:12 Allyson

So that you can have this cultural awareness when you go into a team meeting. And what fascinated me about this book is it gave practical examples.

00:04:22 Allyson

And when you start talking about this book with your team, with people in the workplace, it creates these “AHA!” moments.

00:04:31 Allyson

They even surprised me, even though I was so enthusiastic about the book. I was even more surprised by their “aha” moments. [Tim jokingly: Aha!]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:04:42 Allyson

I read the book. I read it about two or three times. I started talking about it. And then where I last worked, I talked to my team lead and I said, “I've got this idea. I would love to create a workshop based on this book to really try and create a better collegial understanding environment for us to work together with the global team” because I'd seen like if we would go back to these two examples I gave because I've seen too many times team meetings where people from different cultures had been sometimes so difficult to progress or to create a good working team environment.

00:05:22 Allyson

So, my idea was to use this book as a basis for a workshop, which I did. And I've run it now with about 100 people and it's been a great success. And I've also really enjoyed it and it's made an impact.

00:05:37 Tim

Yeah. How did reading that book teach yourself about you?

00:05:41 Allyson

Ohh my goodness. So many things. So many things. That was one of the most “aha” moments for me as well…

00:05:47 Allyson

Was learning about myself because, like you, I've now lived in Germany for 27 years.

00:05:53 Allyson

Sometimes you, you forget about those layers, they're all hidden. You…

00:05:56 Allyson

You go through life…

00:05:58 Allyson

I would say I'm pretty much a self-aware person. But, you know, my daughter would, would say otherwise probably. [both laughing] But you know, there were so many layers that I hadn't even touched int-. I'd even hadn't, hadn't tapped into any of those layers. And reading the book, I realized…

00:06:14 Allyson

The biggest one for me is OK. I've been taking things personally for far too long here in Germany when this is just culture. For one of the big examples is I've given lots of presentations in work.

00:06:26 Allyson

And I felt, often and see feeling, I know is it is a very subjective thing, but I also, I was under the impression when my German colleagues would question me.

00:06:37 Allyson

They were questioning my, my qualifications, my experience, but actually what I learned when I read that book was - I'm speaking to my German colleagues about it as well, because I wanted to know, is this right?

00:06:52 Allyson

They ask questions because they find it intellectually stimulating, so they're showing an actual interest when they're questioning what you're saying, which is actually a huge compliment because it means you're awakening an interest in them, but they want to understand more.

00:07:10 Allyson

Which I always took as a, as an insult. I always felt kind of affronted by it, that actually somebody was questioning my presentation. Just listen. Just… [both laugh]

00:07:21 Allyson

It unlocked something in me. It was an amazing “aha” moment for me.

00:07:26 Allyson

Also, to understand the communication as well, actually while given the, the workshop live people said to me.

00:07:34 Allyson

“Look, Allyson, we don't understand you. We don't understand what you want.” So that meant that I was being far too high context in my communication for a low context audience. Live! It was… I laughed about it, you know. But that - all those “aha” moments, and they unlock something in you. You think, “Ah, OK. I need just take a step back here. (You know) I need to also widen the lens even further.”

00:08:00 Allyson

And those “aha” moments. Helped me a lot; made me also understand lots of my friends who come from different cultures. It's been a huge topic of discussion with many of my friends and what I like about the book is she always says, “Well, you're not going in and saying to people you're like this and you're like that.” That's not the point of it. The point of it is, is just to take a look. Take a step back, zoom out. Be aware of your own cultural lens.

00:08:28 Allyson

And being aware of other cultural lenses.

00:08:30 Allyson

And understanding that, of course, we're all influenced by where we grew up, how we grow up, which language we used, where we've lived. But somehow, we are formed by the education we got, by the country we lived in. The US is massive, 330 million people. It's difficult to say the US Americans are like that. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:08:55 Allyson

Of course, you're a diverse country.

00:08:58 Allyson

But I do believe like in the UK, like in any country.

00:09:02 Allyson

There is a common thread running through a culture because of the education, because of the way they were brought up. Because of the media they're exposed to.

00:09:13 Allyson

And that's why this book is a huge help. It's not reinforcing cliches, not giving you absolutes, but giving you a guide on how to work in global teams.

00:09:24 Allyson

You can see I'm very enthusiastic about it. [Both laugh]

00:09:27 Tim

It sounds very important, and I think it's a good thing for interpreters. Sign language interpreters, spoken language interpreters to understand this, because we're all about meaning. What does someone mean? Sometimes we're [chuckles] sometimes we…

00:09:43 Tim

…are… I would say very low context. The way you defined it. Because we, it's like, “OK, but what's your point? Why are you saying all this? That's, that's fine. That's all flowers. But what's the point? [Allyson: Mm-hmm] What do you really mean?”

00:09:56 Tim

And sometimes that's a frustration for interpreters, especially sign language interpreters. I would say from my experience, because we only have so much time to process and to produce the interpretation, it's usually simultaneous.

00:10:11 Tim

Therefore, we don't have a lot of time to mess with “small talk”, as you said. Although we do it, and we're used to it, and those of us from that same culture understand it.

00:10:23 Tim

But in reality, it doesn't really have meaning when you get down to the very detail of the conversation.

00:10:30 Tim

And so, understanding all of that from the whole spectrum, as you said, it can really help interpreters expand their own understanding, and realize what's really happening when somebody's speaking.

00:10:46 Tim

Because everyone's like you said, we're all even individually on different parts of the spectrum.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

We're all at different points on the spectrum. Some give a little, some give a lot. I ask for a donation of your choosing, click on the links in the show notes of Buy Me A Coffee and support sign language interpreters around the world.

00:11:06 Tim

Thank you. Now let's go Back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:10 Tim

One more serious question, maybe before we get into A little bit of fun stuff.

00:11:14 Allyson

Mm-hmm

00:11:15 Tim

Once you've been in a situation where you've realized you've made a mistake, in communication, let's stick with that example.

00:11:23 Tim

How do you correct it?

00:11:26 Tim

When you're still coming from your context, your lens.

00:11:31 Tim

You're trying to correct the mistake from your lens, but from their lens you may be making it worse because maybe this culture is like, “OK, it was a mistake. Who cares? Let's move on.” But for you, you need to get it corrected. And so how do you do that?

00:11:46 Allyson

OK, that's never happened to me if I'm honest, but I… [sighs]

00:11:50 Allyson

I can imagine that once you start talking about this, once this becomes a topic which you're going to address then, umm, that you rely a lot on the empathy of your counterpart, right?

00:12:08 Allyson

What you said is a very personal trait of somebody. I know where you’re coming from because I've been there. I've been there. I've reacted in two different ways. I've either, let it go because I've perceived the person I'm trying to placate is no longer interested anyway.

00:12:27 Allyson

Or I will face the, the issue head on and talk about it and explain why I made the mistake trying to explain where I'm coming from.

00:12:41 Allyson

But that's a very personal situation, I think, and in the workplace it's very difficult. You can use the culture map in workplace, but also in private, right? The beauty with your friends and with family is you have much more space and much more trusted atmosphere to be able to explain yourself in more detail to try and allay any miscommunication or misunderstanding.

00:13:10 Allyson

In the workplace, depending on how well you know the person or how comfortable you feel, lot of companies say bring your authentic self to the workplace. But if they really mean it, then yeah, maybe you would have the bandwidth to be able to explain yourself. 

00:13:26 Allyson

I would say probably 7 out of 10 times you don't feel that comfortable or able to make yourself that vulnerable in the workplace to be able to explain yourself that much. So, you would more likely say, “OK, brush it off”, an e-mail, maybe later to “say I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.” [Tim: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:13:50 Tim

Let's change our focus a little bit because we both like a little humor. [Allyson bursting out in  laughter, Tim joining]

00:13:56 Allyson

True that.

00:13:59 Tim

Let's do some word association where I will say a phrase or a word and then you give me whatever first pops into your mind. It can be a word, or it can be a story or a feeling, what have you. [Allyson: OK] And you can connect it back to cultural mapping if you wish. So, the first…

00:14:17 Tim

…is comfort food.

00:14:19 Allyson

OK, well I have my comfort food is Marmite on toast. I always have a jar of Marmite. It's a very British thing. You love it or you hate it. Jar of Marmite in my cupboard. And it is mine and my daughters comfort food.

00:14:33 Allyson

Warm buttered toast with Marmite and I feel very comforted, yeah.

00:14:39 Tim

OK, I think I've only tasted it once I may have to try it again.

00:14:43 Allyson

It's delicious, but it's a love or hate thing, Tim. I'm not sure. [both laugh]

00:14:49 Tim

Ah, OK and next, attitude.

00:14:54 Allyson

I would say – curious and positive.

00:14:58 Allyson

Not every day. Not every single day, of course, but I do try to be curious and positive in life.

00:15:05 Tim

Now, has it been that way before and after you started doing this cultural mapping, like when you were younger, did you have this?

00:15:13 Allyson

Yeah, always, always been curious and positive. Umm, the laughs in my family, I'm the one that laughs the most, and I've always been curious, even as… it's like it comes in ebbs and flows. Right? There was a time in my life where I, I think I wasn't as curious.

00:15:29 Allyson

When the children were little, [chuckling] I was probably less…, but yeah. I, I've always as a, as a small child. I was curious. I read very early, and I, I always wanted to know things. So, you know, obviously want to know things that I was interested in. [both chuckle] I’ve always been like that.

00:15:46 Tim

OK, next, heartbreaking.

00:15:55 Allyson

Hmmmm. Heartbreaking.

00:15:57 Allyson

I think that's so... So, I'm at the moment my children are 19 and 23, and my one daughter's almost left home now and I get really sad when I think about that.

00:16:09 Allyson

So, it's more, I think your heart breaking is always, it's family, which is strange because actually family is a very positive thing. I'm very lucky. They're very, very blessed to have a wonderful family, very close to my family. But there at the same time, that's my, my vulnerability because my daughter’s now moving out, that breaks my heart when I think about it. Although it's simple you give them wings.

00:16:28 Allyson

And my son pulls on my heartstrings every-single-day, you know that…. [both laugh]

00:16:33 Allyson

Also my, my being so far away from my family, is, is, is heartbreaking for me, if I'm honest. [Tim: Yeah] Yeah, yeah.

00:16:40 Tim

OK, next Germany.

00:16:43 Allyson

Growth, I would say growth. Like, so, Germany for me has been a place where I've really grown.

00:16:49 Allyson

Where I’ve really developed. It's also a place where I've become an adult.

00:16:55 Allyson

I, I moved here when I was 23 or 24.

00:17:00 Allyson

And I've spent my whole adult life here. So, I've grown a lot.

00:17:05 Allyson

I've come to love it as well. I've really come to love it. For a long time, I, I had one foot in Wales and one foot in Germany and kept thinking, “Oh, go back, go back.” But now I'm, I'm embracing the growth. I can't say I don't think about going back home but I, I feel like it is growth. And I feel like it's become also my home.

00:17:25 Tim

Yeah.

00:17:26 Tim

OK, next people.

00:17:30 Allyson

Life!

00:17:31 Allyson

There's no life without people. The most important thing in, for me, in life is the connections, connections I make.

00:17:40 Allyson

If you don't have people around you, who you can care for and care for you, who you can help, and they can help you. There's no real meaning to life.

00:17:53 Allyson

And that's why I love working in HR, because making an impact with people trying to untap their potential, making the workplace inclusive.

00:18:05 Allyson

This is what drives me.

00:18:08 Allyson

And so, there's no life without people and connections.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:18:13 Tim

How do you connect with colleagues around the world? Well, through this podcast. Follow this podcast. Click on the links in the show notes and support other interpreters around the world. Share it with the friend. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:18:30 Tim

And the last question I'd like to ask is because we've all been there, especially you and I living in different countries than we grew up.

00:18:39 Tim

Is there an embarrassing moment [Allyson laughs, Tim chuckles] that you remember to this day about living and being in a different place?

00:18:50 Allyson

I mean you make fax pauxs (right?) with the language constantly, even now.

00:18:55 Allyson

I remember when I started working in the company in Stuttgart many years ago. I used so many wrong words in German and I'm sure if you asked those people today, they would still remember it because it was something that gave them so much joy. I mean, I just laughed. I think it was funny.

00:19:11 Allyson

I think I, I mean, I wouldn't say I've had any really, really, really embarrassing cultural moments been abroad. It's easy for me (right?) as a UK citizen to come to Germany. My integration in German society is much easier than somebody coming from, I don't know, from Pakistan or from Ghana. So, I know that it's much easier for me.

00:19:31 Allyson

So, I don't have the… or not that I'm aware of. Maybe I've made them, and nobody's told me. [both laughing] But I think it's been easier for me. And I'm aware of my privilege. I highlight that absolutely. But I do think it's good to, if you can see things with a, with a touch of humor. When you go into a new country.

00:19:51 Allyson

Because there are things you don't know of, you don't know, you don't know the social etiquette. You don't know these things. You are… And if you don't marry somebody from that country. So, my ex-man is… uh, my ex-husband, sorry about that not ex-man… [both laughing]

00:20:07 Allyson

My ex-husband is from Iraq, so I never had a German family in which I could learn these social etiquettes. I didn't have that.

00:20:15 Allyson

But like I said, I'm curious, right? So, I'd approach it with curiosity, but also with humor. Oh! I do have one, let me tell you one that I know of. That's quite funny! 

00:20:25 Allyson

When my first daughter was little…

00:20:27 Allyson

So, I grew up in the UK and my mum was very strict with bedtimes, but then I married an Iraqi who was not very strict at bedtimes, and I'm more of a relaxed person anyway. So when we had our first daughter, we weren't strict with bedtimes.

00:20:39 Allyson

So, in the summer, we lived in a flat and everybody would go to the park with their children. And I would be in the park because, you know, you just want to get out with your children and let them have.

00:20:47 Allyson

You know, to socialize with the kids and stuff, and I remember it was quite embarrassing for me, but also, I was bemused by it. At 6:00 pm, everybody would go home with their children.

00:20:59 Allyson

And I would stay because I feel like, “OK, well, it's 6:00 pm. It's summer. The sun is shining. Let’s stay.”

00:21:08 Allyson

And I remember people looking at me, other mums, looking at me and say, “Well, aren’t you going home now? It's time for bedtime with your children.”

00:21:16 Allyson

And that's [both chuckling] for me it was really funny because this is not a reinforcer for a cliche, but then you'd have the other immigrants coming out later with their children, so I would be with the Germans… [laughing] So, I'd be hours and hours in the park.

00:21:33

I guess I'd be there when the, the German mums would go home at six, which is what my mom did with me as well. We would go to bed at 7:00 pm.

00:21:40 Allyson

Whereas the immigrant families will come. So, I remember it was, it was always a very it was interesting, not embarrassing, but interesting moment for me because I remember thinking well, I'm here actually, I belong to the immigrants’ families, you know, I'm more like them. But, but the Western European part of me be dressed and go to the park at 4:00. So, I'll be there from 4:00 pm until 9:00 pm [laughing] with my daughter.

00:22:03 Allyson

Well, you know that sticks in my mind, but I also did that with a bit of humour, right? Yeah. So, I think you just gotta, if you can, you know, and I know it's easy to say when you come here as an immigrant who came here by choice and its language is easier. You know, my language enabled me to learn German. But I always think, see everything with a touch of humour.

00:22:23 Allyson

And then learning by doing right? You just learn as you go along. It takes time.

00:22:28 Tim

Yeah. Thank you, Allyson, for the laughter and thank you for some knowledge that we can all take into our work and into our lives.

00:22:38 Allyson

Thank you, Tim. Really nice to speak to you. Speak soon.

00:22:40 Tim

We will definitely be in touch.

00:22:42 Allyson

Absolutely. OK. [Tim: Thank you]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:22:49 Tim

Sign language interpreters constantly do this in the back of their mind every time we interpret, we analyze the communication between the clients we serve. We try to envision their perspective; what lenses are they using? Allyson gave us a great tool.

00:23:09 Tim

Cultural Mapping the eight dimensions by Erin Myers, can not only help us as an interpreter to analyze a discourse, but it can also help us in our daily lives., how we act as a professional. When we know how others communicate their style, their method, we can better serve them. 

00:23:32 Tim

But there are a lot of things that Allyson said that should be taken to heart. Life is about people – connections.

00:23:43 Tim

And that it takes time to grow and develop. Being curious, being positive.

00:23:51 Tim

Knowing how you perceive the world and how you communicate helps you grow, because then you will be more curious as to how others do this as well and compare how it's different. Thank you, Allyson again for your insight and sharing it with a group of sign language interpreters around the world.

00:24:13 Tim

I'll leave you with one question.

00:24:16 Tim

Answer it for yourself or you can e-mail me and give me your answer.

00:24:23 Tim

Where have you grown? Allyson said Germany is where she grew up, where she grew as an adult.

00:24:32 Tim

Have you recognized where you grew? What point, what place?

00:24:38 Tim

Where were you in your life when you finally noticed that you have grown, matured and developed as …You?

00:24:48 Tim

That's where we get our confidence. That's where we get our lenses. So, until next time, keep calm. Keep interpreting the maps all around us, I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:25:39]