Building International Law Firms: A Conversation with Richard Ma

In the final episode in this series recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Richard Ma, Founder of the Dahui law firm; Xiao Liu, Quinn Emanuel’s Chair of China Practice and Chief Representative of the Beijing Office; and Yixuan Zhu, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Beijing office.  They discuss building their respective firms, establishing their firms’ cultures, global expansion strategies, and challenges in cross-border legal practice.  Dahui was established to better serve clients, particularly in fast-evolving new economy industries like technology, media, telecommunications, and healthcare.  Dahui adopted a boutique approach—being the best at what it did and providing full-service legal support to its clients.  Expanding carefully, the firm analyzes whether expanding into a new city will assist its clients and whether it can attract top tier local talent.  The Chinese legal market is also trending towards firms expanding into “second-tier” Chinese cities such as Wuhan, Nanjing, and Chongqing where an increasing number of disputes arise.  Quinn Emanuel’s global expansion has been largely talent-driven and opportunistic, seeking exceptional lawyers to open offices rather than following a predetermined plan.  In addition, the globalization of business has led to a globalization of disputes with proceedings in multiple jurisdictions and key witnesses living around the world.  Firms with talented lawyers throughout the world are simply better suited to effectively represent clients in such cases.  Both firms work to maintain firm cultures that emphasizes competitiveness and client service.  Quinn Emanuel has a tradition of sending firm wide "victory emails" to celebrate case wins and instill a results-driven mindset.  Dahui values commitment to precision and professionalism, ensuring high standards in legal work.  On the evolving Chinese legal market, Dahui bridges the gap between international clients and China’s regulatory landscape, correcting misconceptions and ensuring successful investments and dispute resolutions.  As Chinese companies continue to expand globally, demand for international dispute resolution will likely rise.  Legal complexities stemming from U.S.-China tensions will also likely provide opportunities for experienced litigators to navigate shifting regulatory and geopolitical landscapes.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn 
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Transcript

XIAO LIU: [00:00:00] So while Richard and John are getting prepared, we're going to kick off this third episode and third and final episode for today's special China series. Uh, as intro introduced, uh, earlier, my name is uh, Al. I'm a partner for Quin Emanuel here in China, and, uh, I'm here together with my partner is is J. So I'll just take a couple minutes to quickly go through the profile of our two interviewees this time around.

Uh, Richard, uh, is the founding and managing partner of the Dawe Law Firm, uh, which has been consistently ranked as Bend One practitioner, uh, by Chambers and Partners Asia Pacific. As the many new partner of Dahua, Richard has overseen the firm's operations and strategy while also leading his corporate and TMT departments.

Richard founded the firm Dahua in 2013 with a group of [00:01:00] lawyers from leading local and international law firms. In the short time Dahua has become One of the most recognized PRC law firms winning various awards, uh, and consistent consistently ranking among the top PRC firms by chambers and legal 500.

And John Quinn, uh, as we all know, being fans of the law disrupted podcast is the executive chairman and founding partner. Of our law firm, Queen Mary, Urquhart and Sullivan, uh, a litigation powerhouse now with 1200 lawyers globally with 36 offices. Uh, and John remains one of the few founding partners of a top tier global law firm that still actively engages in frontline litigation himself.

He is now also hosting, as we all know, law disrupted. And incisive legal podcast, analyzing laws, evolving response to today's pressing issues. So, uh, we are very privileged to be here interviewing two of the legal titans of the China and U S legal [00:02:00] markets. And each of whom also being the founding partner of their respective highly respected law firm in their respective markets.

Uh, so my partner would like to. Kick off the the conversation. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Yes to set the stage for the interview today. I will start By with a little game called first things that come to your mind. So I will 

JOHN QUINN: dangerous.

YIXUAN ZHU: I will ask questions, uh, to John and Richard each, and, and you will answer briefly, obviously you will have chance to expand later, uh, during our formal interview, but you will answer briefly with the first thing that comes to your mind.

Um, and, uh, uh, we will now start, 

XIAO LIU: and this is completely, by the way, unscripted. Uh, unrehearsed, two of them do not know what questions Yixuan would be posting to them. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Okay, so let's start question number one. Tell us the name of your law firm. 

JOHN QUINN: That's a hard 

MA YONG: [00:03:00] one. It's an easy one. It's a Moss something. Yeah, my firm is Dahui Lawyers.

And 

YIXUAN ZHU: how old were you when you started your law firm? 

JOHN QUINN: First thing that comes to my mind, I'm thinking 32, but I'm not sure. Yeah, 36 in my case. 

YIXUAN ZHU: How many lawyers were there when you started your law firm? 

JOHN QUINN: Four. Six. 

YIXUAN ZHU: And how many lawyers, uh, does your firm have today? 

JOHN QUINN: I think we're just under 

MA YONG: 1, 200. Yeah, more than 100.

YIXUAN ZHU: And how many offices, uh, does your firm have now? 

JOHN QUINN: These are easy, 36. Four. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Um, how many hours do you sleep every day? 

JOHN QUINN: It really varies. Depends. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Uh, is there a range 

JOHN QUINN: on average, on average, I'm going to guess [00:04:00] six. 

MA YONG: Yeah. My average is, um, five to six. Yeah. 

XIAO LIU: That's actually a lot more than I expected from both of you.

YIXUAN ZHU: I was expecting like four hours, um, each 

XIAO LIU: one. And I both get emails, email responses from John queen. It's 3 a. m. 5 a. m. 6 p. m. Yeah, any hour. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Yeah. Do you exercise and how often and what do you do for for for workout? 

JOHN QUINN: I exercise every day I do some combination of I used to do triathlon. So I still do swim bike run and lift weights And stretch yoga, although not as much as I should 

MA YONG: I expect, uh, you will ask this question.

So I started to exercise again, just two weeks ago. I swim every day. 

YIXUAN ZHU: It's a new year resolution. Um, in 2024, approximately how many days were you on road traveling for business? [00:05:00] 

JOHN QUINN: If you ask my wife, uh, she would say I was gone 90 percent of the time. And that's simply not true. Uh, I'm probably gone just a little under half the time.

MA YONG: Yeah. In my case, just one month also. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Um, was there a specific moment when you looked at your firm and thought, Hmm, I've made it or we've made it. 

JOHN QUINN: We're not there yet. It's still a project. Yeah, we have a long way to go. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Uh, what's your vision for the firm 10 years from now? 

JOHN QUINN: Well, I, I, I don't think we should fundamentally change our, um, our business, uh, practice, uh, strategy.

Um, we should just be more, uh, I, I would like us to be involved in any major dispute anywhere in the world. 

MA YONG: I hope our direction will remain unchanged. Um, but we have many more offices, many more attorneys in this firm. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Okay. [00:06:00] I'm out of my 10 questions quota and we'll now start the more formal interview.

Now we have the harder questions. So, 

XIAO LIU: uh, both of you. Were attorneys practicing at prominent law firms, John, you were with Kravath, uh, and, and Richard, you were with, uh, among other firms, uh, global and what inspired each of you guys to go out and establish of your own firm. 

MA YONG: Well, um, when I was with my previous firm for 10 years, I realized there.

Some kind of problems that I could not entirely resolve. I know what my clients want. However, I could not do much, much more, could not do better for my clients on the platform. I started to talk to my clients. All of them actually share with me very useful advice or [00:07:00] inspiring thoughts. Uh, one of them even asked me the question, Richard, why don't you set up your own firm?

But to be honest, setting up my own firm was not an option to me at all. At that moment, I was just looking for another firm and existing firm and established. Platform, however, after a few rounds of discussions, um, with a few firms, I found out this might not be my, this might, this might not be the best choice for my clients.

Then I consider an option, um, that I had never sought off to set up. A new firm when I share with this idea with some of the clients, some of them actually were even more excited than I was. So I got more confidence. Um, so that's the whole [00:08:00] story. In that sense, I would say it was my clients who inspired me.

In addition, there are many pioneers in the Chinese market as well. Uh, for example, until just now, I had thought that Mr. Professor Gao was a real founder of high wind and the practice there. So my misunderstanding of Ms. Gao's story also inspired me. Yeah. But thank you for the clarification anyway. Yeah.

XIAO LIU: If I may ask you a follow up before John tells our story, uh, what is. Maybe the one factor that you thought only by opening a law firm, can you deliver the type of service you want or the type of service that, uh, your clients want that you couldn't do at any other established pre established law firms?

MA YONG: Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. And, and this is related to the positioning of our firm [00:09:00] or our team. Um, When I started to set up this new firm, you know, the positioning was very clear to me from day one. Um, so we should be a boutique full service firm. On the one hand, boutique means, um, We cannot do everything.

We have to make sure that we are the best at what we do. Um, so we are focused on certain industries, such as, uh, the so called new economy industries ranging from TMT, new health care, uh, et cetera. Um, boutique also means size. It is not realistic for us to have a big size at the very beginning. Um, on the other hand, in our areas, um, We provide full service to our clients, one stop service from A to Z.

So that's exactly what most of our clients want. And, [00:10:00] you know, this is a big achievement that we have to make in our next chapter. I mean, by setting up the new firm. 

XIAO LIU: And John, tell us your story, why you decide and how do you decide to go back to California and leave the premier, the premier law firm at the time, Cravat Swing and more, and start your own shop?

JOHN QUINN: Well, there were a number of things that happened in between, Xiao. I, I was only at the cravat firm for about two and a half years, so I was a very young associate when I, when I left cravat. And I'm from the western part of the U. S., I'm from Utah, uh, and I had gone to college in Los Angeles, and although I like New York City, I really didn't, uh, Understand how people raise families there.

Uh, you know, obviously they do, but I didn't get it. Uh, and, uh, I like the West, and I liked L. A. in particular. So, although I enjoyed the experience of being at Cravath, Um, [00:11:00] I decided that it was really a, it was a geographic location decision. Um, you know, the major New York firms at that time didn't have branch offices in, in Los Angeles.

And back then, um, you know, it was, the major firms, there were three major firms in Los Angeles at the time. Gibson, Dunn Crutcher, O'Melveny Myers, and Latham Watkins. Latham Watkins was the new upstart firm. It might have had 90 lawyers. O'Melveny Myers and Gibson Dunn were the two traditional Establishment firms.

They probably only had one office in downtown Los Angeles. And, uh, I came out and I interviewed at those firms. And, uh, you know, back then, believe it or not, Firms didn't want to hire lateral associates. I mean, it was, like, controversial. I mean, we want to grow our own, we have our own way of doing things.

Culturally, you know, can we take this person who's, you know, from New York? You know, I wasn't from New York, I lived there for two and a half [00:12:00] years. Uh, and then, you know, sort of indoctrinate them in our way of doing things. And I didn't, I didn't get a job, uh, at any of those firms. I ended up going to a, uh, firm that nobody's ever heard of and died long ago.

Because there was another, a former Cravath alumnus who was there. And it was like, the people at Cravath said, you should, if you can possibly work with this guy, you should. He had the sort of Cravath seal of approval. So I, I joined this firm that nobody had ever heard of, uh, just because there was this Cravath alumnus there.

I was there six weeks, and he said, let's go start our own law firm. So they're a very short lived law firm called Baker Quinn. Uh, I was three years out of law school. I had no idea what I was doing. It sounded like fun. Um, but what, uh, he was a brilliant guy. But he didn't have a, he was not from Los Angeles, and he didn't have a clue how to develop [00:13:00] business.

He's a brilliant lawyer, but couldn't market his way out of a wet paper bag. He just really, he had no idea, so we had, we basically had no work. Uh, and so, but we did form a relationship with a small midtown New York firm, which also doesn't exist anymore. Uh, they started to send us some work. I split up with my then partner and opened a one lawyer office for this midtown small firm.

Uh, they said they would have lots of work on the west coast. I wouldn't have to worry about, there'd be plenty of work to do. Turns out there was no work to do. So it was all up to me. So here I am, you know, uh, four years out of law school, uh, by myself. Uh, two small kids, uh, and, and in that circumstance, I think I found, I think you can find, you will find that if you have to do something, if you're put in [00:14:00] circumstances where you have to do something, you find you can do things you didn't know that you can do.

And so, uh, you know, I, I developed a practice by every way, every way that I could not, you know, cold calls, whatever I would. Everything but chase ambulances. I didn't actually do that. But, you know, when I saw people had a legal problem, I would cold call, I would contact them. Whatever it took. And, and that's how it started.

And so we did develop an office. We did develop a practice. And there was no reason for that economic con connection with this small firm in New York. And so January 1, 1986, Uh, four of us opened the offices of, uh, What was then, uh, Quinn and Emanuel. 

YIXUAN ZHU: And the next question is for, uh, Richard. Uh, so we have seen Dahui growing, uh, organically and, uh, you now have four offices, I think in Beijing, Shanghai, New York and Wuhan.

Um, and, uh, what's next and, and how do you identify [00:15:00] new opportunities? 

MA YONG: Um, well, um, compared to I'm funding this firm. I mean, the headquarters in Beijing, uh, we are much more cautious in setting up new branch offices in other cities. Um, we do not do franchise. Um, we have to make sure that everything remains the same at the headquarters in Beijing.

So the average, uh, the average time we prepare for our new office. Is about 2 years, um, for many, for many things, but once the decision is made, uh, we will proceed immediately without any has he hesitation. Um, for example, we are, um, we were going to set up our 1st overseas office. Back in 2018, 2019, uh, in New York, uh, however, our plan was suspended, uh, because of the.

COVID COVID [00:16:00] broke out at that time, uh, just a few, a few months later, uh, the partners, uh, in this firm, uh, decided to resume. New York plan, um, so, but with a smaller size of the office, um, so we just have, we just have a new office in, uh, in Wuhan. Um, and we always can see the 2 factors, uh, when we can see that the new branch offices, uh, number 1, is it good for our clients?

Number two, is it good for us to attract and, uh, read, um, and retain, uh, talents, local talents? If the answers to those two questions are both yes, uh, definitely we will. Uh, we will do it, um, it could, there could be a trend going forward that many top law firms, I mean, PRC firms, uh, will go to the so called second or [00:17:00] third tier cities, Wuhan, Nanjing, Chongqing, et cetera.

Um, it's very interesting when over the past few years, um, for some of the, um. Uh, big projects, big, uh, disputes, uh, in those cities. Um, in the fine, um, in the short list, the, in the bidding of the bidding process, all of the candidate firms are from Beijing instead of any local. Uh, firm, so we realized, uh, actually there are more and more opportunities in those cities.

So the next, our next stop may be one of them. 

XIAO LIU: And I think a similar question for John, but also perhaps even more fundamentally, uh, for Richard's firm, for dockway, it is a full service firm. Makes sense for them to expand internationally because that's what their clients want. Uh, for litigation, for Queen Emmanuel being a litigation only firm, litigation, we all [00:18:00] perceive as a local practice.

You need to know the judge and you know, the local rules, uh, how and when did you decide that it would make sense for a disputes only firm to go truly international? 

JOHN QUINN: I mean, it is a good question because you, you think of, uh, litigation. Uh, and, you know, legal disputes being, uh, creatures of individual countries legal systems.

Uh, so what, what sense does it make to have an international law firm with offices subject to different legal, legal systems in different countries? Uh, but we, what we have found is that, um, the internationalization, the globalization of business has also meant, the globalization of disputes. We were having lunch today with our Beijing team, and I asked the associates, are they working with lawyers in other offices?

And, uh, I wasn't really surprised, but I was pleased to hear, yes, they're working with, you [00:19:00] know, someone in our Silicon Valley office, or someone in our Singapore office. There is a lot of cross border work. Even individual, even cases which are Uh, the case itself isn't really cross border, but it'll have a parallel or a related action in a different jurisdiction.

Or maybe there'll be an important witness, or a discovery exercise, a 1782 exercise in the U. S., or the bad guy. Uh, and look, we've, just to cite, we've had a case involving a Swiss bank that had a problem, uh, with a regulator in Taiwan. where the alleged bad guy was in Singapore. Uh, involved like five of our offices.

Uh, we had another case where there was a, uh, Middle Eastern, uh, Emirati sovereign wealth fund, uh, that had investment in China that had gone [00:20:00] bad to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars and the bad guy was in the U. S. And we were working with the authorities here, uh, I hope I can say this, uh, We can cut it out.

Uh, you'll still tell me, I mean, to get him extradited, uh, here to China. These situations are not unusual. Um, so, I mean, working across offices, having boots on the ground in different jurisdictions has been a huge advantage for us. 

XIAO LIU: Uh, I mean, when I joined the firm in 2018, I think we had 20 plus offices.

Now we have 36 within the past six years. How do you, John, identify new opportunities in new markets where you want to establish a footprint? 

JOHN QUINN: Well, first off, it's not just me, as you know, uh, a lot of people have to be brought on board, uh, we have a large partnership, there's a lot of people who have, it turns out litigators have opinions, surprise, surprise, and they want [00:21:00] to be heard, uh, so the time when I can make a decision if they ever existed is in the distant past, alone, but, uh, look, I think it's, uh, mostly been talent driven, to be honest.

So how did we open an office, our first office in China? I mean, I had the idea, I, I actually think I did have the idea, that, um, look, there's a lot of, this was back, Ten years ago? 

YIXUAN ZHU: 2015. Huh? 

JOHN QUINN: 2015. 

XIAO LIU: 2015. Do you mean Hong Kong or Shanghai? Which one are you talking about? 

JOHN QUINN: I'm, I'm talking, uh, about Shanghai now.

XIAO LIU: Yeah. 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah. I, look, I know Hong Kong's part of China. I'm sorry. First one, you may land in China. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um, so, I, I mean, I had the idea, uh, look, there's a lot of Western companies that have issues in China. There's a lot of Chinese companies that have issues. In the U. S., I wonder if there is a former United States prosecutor who practices in China.

Is there such a [00:22:00] person? Is there Happens to speak Chinese as well. And he speaks Chinese. Is there such a unicorn? So, I actually ran a screen to find out if there is such a person. And there's one name that came back. And you know who that is. He's opened our office. A guy with the very un Chinese name of Sam Williamson.

Who was here, and he ran the, um, Asian, uh, disputes, uh, investigations practice for Boo Kirkland and Ellis. And so he covered from India to Korea. And so, uh, I arranged to meet, so I didn't know, Sam Williamson is just a name. So I sent around an email, does anybody know a guy named Sam Williamson? Bill Burke raised his hand and said, I know Sam.

I guess they were in the U. S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York together. So, uh, I met Sam. And initially, you [00:23:00] know, it was a courtship, uh, but not a very long courtship. So, the point is that was talent driven. We would not have opened an office here if we hadn't found the right person.

And then through him, we met you, and you know, the rest is history. That's Haiyan and Yixuan. So, that's how it starts. We tend to be talent driven in terms of the decision to open an office. Um, You know, we're not going to open an office if we don't have the right person. We're not going to say, gee, wouldn't it be great to have an office in country X.

And usually, uh, I mean, in the case of Sam, we had the idea, and then we go find the person. Um, but usually it's the other way around. We open an office with somebody comes to our attention and we open an office because of that person 

YIXUAN ZHU: and what is next? I don't even know our firm's plan and Where do you see our firm goes next?

JOHN QUINN: We now have we've never had a plan [00:24:00] Is this a rhetorical question? I was amazed to hear Richard Say, there are, they planned for two years. We've never done that. We've never had a plan. Um, we've been opportunistic. So, um, yeah. I mean, the right person, the right opportunity comes, you seize it. That's it.

XIAO LIU: I mean, both of you are actually essentially saying consistent things in terms of identifying new opportunities, right?

Opportunity in terms of market and client need, and then talent acquisition. I have to notice both dark way and queen manual are inherently built on letter hires. Different from many other firms, uh, for some, some of the top, uh, some of the other top us law firms, they probably would not take similar pride in the fact that they were inherently built on lateral hires, but dark way, obviously already established attorneys from Chinese law firms, [00:25:00] international law firms, and queen manual.

Um, I think a lot of our very important prominent practitioners, uh, including yourself, John should be regarded as a lateral. So you didn't really have a, the only one that's not a lateral. So how do you, so each of you has this question for both Richard and John. So how do you retain, uh, lateral talents at the same time retaining the firm's own culture and identity?

MA YONG: One long term philosophy in my mind, um, is, uh, we do need diversity in this firm. Uh, we need people with different, um, background. Um, and we do need a strong team of members. Who have great exposure with international firms. The rationale behind this was, um, law firm is one of the most traditional, uh, businesses in this planet.[00:26:00] 

Um, the pioneers in the uk, in the us, uh, actually they did a lot of, you know, great things we should learn. Uh, we should learn, um, the best innovation in the Chinese vehicle market. Uh, is to learn those great things with necessary localization. Um, in that sense, we are, uh, in this firm, we are doing an experiment and see how far a Chinese firm like us can go by making ourselves, by making our firm international.

Um, bearing this in mind. Um, we, um, uh, try to attract a lot of, um, excellent lawyers from international firms. Um, the first, the new partner that we got immediately after we set up this firm in 20, uh, 2013, [00:27:00] uh, was Peter Barrows. Uh, Peter was, um, the managing partner of a UK firm, uh, Northern Rose, uh, China offices, Beijing and Shanghai.

Um, He was, um, he was, he was retiring, um, in, uh, 2013, uh, several Chinese law firms approached him. Um, we were the smallest one, um, the youngest one, and we were the latest one to talk to him. Uh, one of the top Chinese firms, um, was going to, uh, extend an offer. Um, well, um, during the last meeting with him in the office, um, I said to him, Peter, if I were you.

Uh, I will not join that firm. Um, I would use the rest of my career to [00:28:00] create a better version of a PRC firm, uh, which is called the next generation PRC firm. A few days later, Peter wrote to me, he made decision to join us. Um, he was with us for on full time basis for five years, um, preparing. Um, most of the, you know, our fundamental policies are system in this firm.

So now that way, um, you know, it's based on many important things that Peter help us, you know, build up. In the early days, um, another example was, uh, when I met with, uh, the China matching partner of a match of a magic circle firm in the same building. Um, um, because we, uh, historically, we got 3 partners from this firm.

Um, uh, when I met with the matching partner, I said, I [00:29:00] came here, uh, I should say sorry too, because we got, you know, 3, um. That's the lawyers in your office as our new partners. Um, he said, it's okay. Um, I could be the next one. Yeah. Um, so that's the history of the firm. I mean, um, through the lateral hiring, we benefit a lot in the, from this model.

However, like I said, integration is paramount. 

XIAO LIU: What are you, John, especially coming from a firm that pride itself on almost never having laterals now having created your own firm of your own firm, how did you decide and how do you manage that? You attract so much talent laterally, but still retain the identity and culture of the firm.

JOHN QUINN: Yeah, I never understood, I mean, even Kravath now, uh, brings in partners laterally, all the major New York firms raid each other, so that, that all has changed. I never understood the reluctance [00:30:00] of law firms to, uh, recruit lateral, uh, partners from other firms. I mean, we did make, uh, integration is, uh, is key, it's an important issue.

Uh, and we did, we have made a decision that we, you know, there were opportunities to merge early on. I mean, we're too big for a merger now, but, uh, people are bringing big groups. We were, we never did it because we were always concerned that if we brought in a large group, we would be able to integrate them.

We think we have a good way, a good law firm culture, a good way of relating to each other. And, and, you know, would we be able to, uh, actually inculcate in these people, uh, our way of doing things? Or would they, if they came together as a big group, would they just continue practicing together the way they had?

Would we be able to integrate them? So the only time we brought in a large group was a products liability group from Skadden Arps. Uh, there were about 15, 16 people. They didn't integrate and they left in [00:31:00] two years. That's the only time it's sort of prove the thesis that we shouldn't do that. Um, so I, I think recruiting one offs or two offs, you know, then you can, you can integrate them.

You can persuade them, teach them, show them, demonstrate that our way of doing things. is superior, that you don't have to, you know, our approach is every client's a firm client. Everybody pitches in, helps each other. I might need your help this week. You might need my help next week. And, uh, sometimes you have to break people of bad habits at other firms where, you know, they're possessive of clients, they're territorial and the like.

And you have to kind of teach people that no, that's not, that doesn't, A, it's not necessary. Two, it's not the way we do things. It's not appreciated. So, but I, I agree, we, we, we have learned a lot from lawyers who have had experience at other firms. They've joined us and we've learned from that. I mean, we don't think [00:32:00] our firm's way of doing things can't be improved and we've, uh, picked up improvements from partners who've joined us from other firms.

YIXUAN ZHU: The next question really is, I think, um, that way, at least from my interactions with that way, I do feel like a strong, firm culture. Um, everyone, even including, uh, the, the, the staff are super professional. I've seen documents. They're all, uh, like every time I praise, uh, to, to my colleagues and documents are always, uh, professional and, and, and beautiful, like in my view.

Um, so, and obviously Quinn, Quinn Emanuel, I joined Quinn Emanuel Because of the, the, the unique sort of firm culture. Um, I guess people, uh, generally think like the, the, the, the leadership style, um, and the values of the firm really reflected the leader and the founder's own sort of philosophy and values.

And how, how do you think, or how have you think like the, the, your own personal principles or, um, how did you [00:33:00] build the culture basically? Uh, and do you think that your personal values really shape the firm's, uh, culture over the years?

MA YONG: Um, to tell the truth, the beautiful things that you have seen from our firm, you know, they are not my contribution. Um, uh, actually, you know, uh, my colleagues, um, do much better than I do for those for those kind of things. Um, um, over the past a few years, um, part of my key job is to. Minimize my personal influence in this firm like I said, we do need diversity.

We do need different people for and as well as their contribution. If I have ever made any personal contribution to this firm, I would say I like, you know, to create some slogans, uh, for, for the, for the team members, for the firm, for example, uh, if you have the chance to visit our offices, [00:34:00] Uh, in Beijing, Shanghai and Wuhan, we have the same, you know, slogan, uh, on the wall.

Um, something like in English, uh, like make less mistakes, don't forget things. Well, um, this slogan is very simple, but reflects our assumption. So one of the assumptions that we have during our daily work is, um, we cannot assume, you know, there is a person, uh, who does not make, make mistakes. Any mistake, so the assumption in this firm is everyone makes mistakes, uh, but with the team efforts, uh, we can, we, we should be able to, you know, minimize the mistakes, you know, uh, incline matters in our daily work, um, but don't forget things, um, this is a cheap, uh, this is something that we can do, you know, through some, you know, Uh, methodologies, so this, this is only an [00:35:00] example.

Another example is about the slogans that I, you know, um, I gave my colleagues, like use corporate methodology to do the litigation work. This might not apply in the US market, but in China, um, considering, you know, um, the, the readers of our contracts, as well as the. You know, details in the legal proceedings.

Um, we do need, you know, um, learn from the corporate team in terms of the preparation, you know, for the, uh, for the hearings, for the, uh, evidence package, things like that. And also, um, I encourage our colleagues to use the litigation litigator's mind to do corporate work. So it's the same, it's the same thing that we cannot only do very beautiful documents without thinking.

As a litigator, because the readers of those contracts, those agreements, actually, the final [00:36:00] readers would be arbitrators and the judges. Um, so we should make, make, make, you know, those readers feel comfortable about the documentation that we prepared. 

YIXUAN ZHU: What about John? 

JOHN QUINN: I don't know. What do you think? The firm height, perhaps?

Well, um. So I, litigation is, uh, in some ways it's like a sport and there are winners and there are losers. Sometimes it's unclear, most cases settle on favorable or less favorable or more favorable terms. Uh, but it's a highly competitive activity. Um, and I, I, I think I'm extremely off the charts competitive person and always have been.

And so at our firm, I think we, There is a real focus on, uh, winning. I mean, it's not Nobody should [00:37:00] feel good, like, I did my very, very best, and we lost. That's not good. That's not good enough. You did your very, very best. I mean, you should lose sleep over the fact that you lost. That's how I feel. And I think that's kind of how our, at our firm, I think that's how people feel.

That, you know, we need to win. We need to get results. We need to win for our clients. And maybe that's a little bit of a reflection of my own personal warped approach to life. 

XIAO LIU: Maybe John, you can elaborate on the victory email routine that we have at the firm and also the NFLO and what it stands for. 

JOHN QUINN: So when, um, for a couple of decades now, when we win a case at our firm, somebody on the, on the, on the team, we'll write an email to the entire firm.

We call it the victory email. It's the victory email, and they tell you [00:38:00] about the case. They tell you about the win, and they credit all the different people, uh, who contributed to it. Uh, and then after that initial email goes out, there'll be a course of email. Always this next one is somebody comments on the author.

of the first email and says, so and so always has understated her contribution. It's always, the second email is always contemplating, uh, or, uh, complimenting the author of the first email. But then there'll be a chorus, everybody chimes in. And so there'll be dozens of these emails. So that's very much part of the culture.

Recognizing, observing, uh, and celebrating a great result for a client. 

XIAO LIU: And how often this happens? 

JOHN QUINN: I mean, multiple times a week, I think. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Yeah. And

JOHN QUINN: we win a, we win a lot. So there's lots of victory emails 

YIXUAN ZHU: and reading victory emails is really fun [00:39:00] part of this job. Uh, you see that there's a, this dispute in the world about something that I've never really, uh, learned.

And then I read the email, uh, they will tell and litigators. I mean, they're all like storytellers and they would frame the story saying like, always, we start. Not very good position, then we came in, we sort of turned the tide and then we won, but some of the victory emails I've always been thinking, maybe we should put them all in a book.

But of course, a lot of them are settlement victories that we can't really share out of the firm. But I think victory emails does bring all the sort of offices together. Sometimes we send to all. All personnel, uh, some staff would, uh, come back and reply to all and saying, this is a really, really, uh, being a part of the, the firm, uh, and reading all these victories that we have achieved, especially when in some cases that there are some costs involved.

XIAO LIU: And when John and Nisha mentioned [00:40:00] the victory emails mentioning everyone's contribution, literally everyone from the partners to the associates, to the legal assistants, to an administrative staff who played a role in securing this victory for our client. And so it's very touching sometimes for me to read.

Well, so and so local office manager, this legal secretary who provided critical support to the true success of this trial team. Uh, and, uh, and I think from maybe a few years ago, it's already started seeing every victory email ending with the same slogan, NFL, sometimes an FFLO. John, you want to, you care to explain that?

JOHN QUINN: NFLO is no firm like ours, no firm like ours, NFLO. 

YIXUAN ZHU: And we have N A L O, no associates like ours, um, as well, I think. 

XIAO LIU: And N F F L O obviously stands for no effing firm, firm, like ours. [00:41:00] 

YIXUAN ZHU: Yeah. And more and more, at least from what I saw, more and more of these victory emails involve multiple offices is really from like the, the, the.

globe. Uh, some case involves the German office and the U. S. office in China and everywhere. So 

JOHN QUINN: Richard, we don't claim any intellectual property in the, you're, you know, feel free to adapt. Oh, yeah, sure. I'm sure. For your firm. 

MA YONG: Sure. Yeah. Actually, you know, when we. Um, um, design our new logo, uh, we started a lot of, you know, successful precedents, including your firms.

Uh, 

XIAO LIU: yeah, I don't know. We, we like, we liked it. Yeah. Uh, Richard, actually a question for you is somewhat more serious question. Uh, Darkly obviously represents a lot of multinational companies in China. Uh, Whether it is Chinese investments or investments in China, corporate transaction deals, or litigation or arbitration, I imagine it can be a foreign [00:42:00] concept to these multinational companies, the construct of Chinese court system, arbitration, even, and, and the local regulatory landscape.

How do you, as a Chinese lawyer bridge the cultural gap? Between what is required here in China and your audience, which is the multinational companies with their headquarters, often in another country, maybe a common law jurisdiction. Yeah. 

MA YONG: That's part of our daily job, um, for both the corporate and litigation work actually.

Uh, yes. Um, um, there are many voices in the market, uh, in terms of the, um, legal system, uh, enforcement, uh, policies. Um, um, in the local, in the local market, uh, we always heard from our international clients. The more I heard, you know, from the Chinese market, uh, the more [00:43:00] confusion I have about your legal system.

Um, so our key job is to provide necessary. Clarification, you know, to, uh, those international clients and in particular, the newcomers in this market, I always, uh, share with my clients. Uh, if your CEO, if your management have never been in this country. And they just sit in their offices in New York, in London, and the only channel that they can learn about China is Wall Street Journal, New York Times, uh, to tell the truth.

You know, uh, many things in their mind and their understanding of the landscape here might not be correct. Yeah. Um, it turns out that, you know, after you know, the necessary clarification. More importantly, we have to make sure our international clients' investment in this [00:44:00] country successful. We have to make sure that our international clients disputes.

Resolved in this country. So that's the best, you know, example, that's the best precedent and that's the best, you know, clarity for their business for not only for the market entry, but also for the survival here, as well as the exit, um, many, many people. Uh, including our clients, uh, say actually, um, what we are doing every day, uh, is similar to the so called, um, external propaganda, you know, for the country or smaller, small, external.

Propaganda, so this way, the international clients, those multinational companies, they could, you know, feel much more comfortable, you know, about this market as well as the very complicated and [00:45:00] tricky regulations here. 

YIXUAN ZHU: As a young partner of the firm, I this is sort of a question for myself. Um, I'm interested because over the past year, I found this is not an easy job is never an easy job.

But being you have to be a lawyer, you have to do casework. And then you also have to develop a business for the firm. And then you also have Like, uh, management roles within the firm. Um, I guess this is a young partner to, uh, the senior lawyers. How do you balance like the three parts of your job and how much time do you spend on each, uh, percentage wise?

JOHN QUINN: Well, I mean, it's changed over time. Um, you know, I'm, I'm not billing 2, 500 hours a year, uh, which I used to year after year. Last year I had maybe 1, 200 client hours. But as I said, I was traveling almost half the time. I [00:46:00] made four trips to Singapore. That's 18 hours each way from Los Angeles. We opened an office in Singapore.

I was going to the UAE a lot. We opened offices in Abu Dhabi, Dubai. We're still working on a Riyadh office. I go there. There's the usual trips, you know, every six weeks to New York. Silicon Valley, there's always new clients to meet there. Uh, London, a few times a year. So I'm doing an awful lot, and most of that is, uh, business development work.

I'm paying calls on clients, uh, or prospects, uh, or sometimes recruiting. So, you know, business development related activities has really grown in terms of, you know, the pie, the piece of the pie that is my professional life. Uh, so it changes over time. 

YIXUAN ZHU: It sounds like the total hours have not really reduced.

I don't think the total hours have reduced at all. [00:47:00] Yeah, and management too. Uh, I mean, it's a firm of 1, 200 lawyers. 

JOHN QUINN: You know, management, law firm management is a misnomer. There's no such thing. People like you can't be managed. People like us and Litigators can't be managed. Uh, I mean, I think it's, uh, I mean, what is there you compare it to what our clients do, you know, tech companies there, or, you know, name the business.

They're making big bets. They're investing billions of dollars on something that You know, they're not going to see results until maybe years into the future. They face competition. They're doing things that are extremely difficult and really do require bringing in all kinds of disciplines and talent and things like that.

Our, our, I think what we do professionally, as you were saying, practicing law, is extremely difficult. It's extremely challenging. But as a business, it's a dumb [00:48:00] business, in the sense that mostly of what we're doing is bringing people who have legal problems together with people who have legal talent and mostly billing it out by the hour.

That's the sum total of the business. , we don't have any assets. You have a real estate lease, although that doesn't seem to be as important. It used to be you lease some it and some computer equipment, you don't have any, you don't really have any assets except as we, these, the expression is the p the assets that go down the elevator every day and come up to the next, the next morning.

So, I mean, I, I think law firm management is, the importance of it, uh, is grossly exaggerated. In my view, um, although I think I don't get me wrong, I think practicing law is extremely difficult 

YIXUAN ZHU: and two quick follow up questions. And same for Richard as well. Um, do you feel like it gets easier over the [00:49:00] years?

Uh, as you get better at maybe Practicing law and business development or or anything and the second question is how many emails do you get every day? 

JOHN QUINN: I'm I'm better at business development. I get better and better. I got my have my rap down You know, I can talk about our firm. I can talk about the talents of our people I have more stories to tell have more victories to relate.

I'm more fluent at it I think I'm I just think I'm better at promoting the firm than I ever was, um. 

YIXUAN ZHU: And, and emails, how many? 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah, I don't know. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Thousands? 

JOHN QUINN: No, uh, I think I get like five or six hundred a day. 

YIXUAN ZHU: You seem to respond to every single email of mine at least. It's self defense. 

JOHN QUINN: If you don't respond, you get buried.

The feeling I, you know, I hate. So I go to Korea a lot. We mentioned Korea. Can somebody explain to me why there isn't Wi Fi in Korean airlines? [00:50:00] I mean, they're one of the most connected countries in the world, and there's no Wi Fi on Korean Airlines. That's a 12 hour flight. I landed in Cheon, or I landed in L.

A. on the way back. I turn on the phone, and pfft. You know what that feels like? That sinking feeling in your stomach? I mean, to me, it's self defense. I have to knock them off as they come in. It just depresses me. I am. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Uh, what about Richard? 

MA YONG: Yeah, I just want to share, um, about 10 years ago, t um, 2014, um, uh, one of our clients, Chinese clients had some emergency in, uh, Connecticut, very close to New York.

Um, I wrote to John about 2:00 PM our time, uh, which was about midnight in la. Uh, I didn't write, I didn't, I didn't expect John. Uh, respond to me immediately, maybe in eight [00:51:00] hours, something, but just, uh, within 10 minutes, I received a reply, you know, from John, he copied, uh, some of his partners, uh, on the, on the east coast.

Uh, surprisingly, you know, I got messages from. You know, the mentioned part of your New York office and the replies from another, uh, some other partners within the firm. So I always share this true story, you know, to, uh, with my colleagues and people around me. And this is one of the, you know, great things that we should learn from very established, you know, firm like Queen Manu.

Um, well, like many other Chinese firms, uh, we do not have the luxury. You know, to have a full time mansion partner, uh, in our firm, uh, personally, I spent, um, a lot of time, maybe, um, 70 percent or 80 percent of my time, uh, in practicing, uh, working with my clients. [00:52:00] Um, uh, I do much less, you know, for the management of the firm.

I still remember, um, many years ago, John, when you, um, in one of the interviews. Um, you mentioned, uh, a very important thing, uh, that lawyers don't need to be managed. I still remember what you said. Yeah. So this is very, this is very useful. Once we have a, you know, good system, the lawyers know what they should do.

We don't need to any extra management work, you know, at all. Um, and these days, um, for example, in 2024, I stepped out. Of my room in the offices, I chose to, uh, sit. I took out with my associates and secretaries in open area. Uh, I spent at least a three to five months [00:53:00] doing this way. It's really, you know, useful experience.

I listened to them every day. I listened to their phone calls that they made with the clients, with the, uh, courts, with, you know, some other parties, uh, just like Victor mentioned during, you know, um, uh, the, uh, The second episode, um, I've learned a lot, you know, from the associates from the secretaries around me, uh, and I felt great sitting beside you for three or four months.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then I decided I should have a permanent seat. In open area, as you know, in our Shanghai office, yeah, 

YIXUAN ZHU: um, and, uh, uh, well, uh, that way have spent over 10 years. So does it get easier for you to manage the firm and manage business development? 

MA YONG: Um, Um, I can't say, you know, it's getting easier, but I [00:54:00] could not complain.

It's getting, you know, more difficult. Uh, we have, um, but you know, uh, if someone asked me the question, if, uh, he experienced all of those things, um, you know, um, uh, would you make the same decision 10 years ago? The answer is definitely yes. 

XIAO LIU: With that, we want to open up the floor. Uh, we understand we're already actually over time, so we're going to allow for it.

Three questions from the audience. Um, so I see Patrick and one of our colleagues can hand you the microphone. 

YIXUAN ZHU: Uh, maybe briefly introduce yourself, uh, just so that our audience on the podcast later. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. Thank you. Uh, my name is Patrick Chang. I'm from Airlines Law Offices at Tongli, Luzhou. So I have a very quick question to John that we, we all know that TikTok case.

Uh, pending before the U. S. Supreme Court, and that is a, uh, the cause of [00:55:00] action is constitutional. In other words, uh, it is alleged violation of the First Amendment by U. S. Congress, uh, banning, uh, TikTok from, uh, uh, operations, uh, in, in the U. S. So my question is, uh, in your firm, uh, whether constitutional law practice, uh, is a, is a unique one?

So it's different from a contract law disputes, for example, or to disputes or company law disputes. So it's more like a very unique one, like a public international law dispute. So, uh, is that the case that any lawyer, any litigation lawyer can do, uh, constitutional law, uh, cases, uh, of his, of his or her own choice?

Or you, you, you, you were assigned. Uh, a special people, uh, who are specialized in constitutional law issues. Thank you.[00:56:00] 

JOHN QUINN: As I understand the question is, uh, where you have a constitutional dispute at our firm. Is that like a specialized practice area that only certain people would do? Um, no, look, I mean, constitutional issues can come up, uh, all the time. Um, You know, whether somebody has fair notice or due process issues, or often constitutional issues, uh, takings issues, government taking a property, constitutional issues.

Uh, so at our firm, if we had a case where there was a constitutional issue, and you know, we do from time to time, uh, it's not that we would, we don't have a constitutional practice or a certain number of people who only address, uh, deal with those types of issues, but we'd certainly want, there are certain people in our firm.

We'd want to make sure their eyes were on the briefing, that they were taking a look at that. Because, uh, but in that respect, it's [00:57:00] not different than any other area. You want to make sure that you have people who have the expertise, your best people, uh, for that particular type of issue, looking at the issue.

So, I mean, we don't have a specialized constitutional practice, but we have, there are certain people who we would want to have involved. In one way or another, in a case like that. Yes, Kathleen. You know, very sadly, as of January 1, she's retired. So this is Kathleen Sullivan. Who was, has for many years been the head of our appellate department.

She's argued many cases before the United States Supreme Court. Before she joined our firm, she was dean of the, uh, Stanford University Law School. Taught constitutional law. You know, she's certainly one of those people that we would want to have look at, uh, constitutional issues. But, I mean, we have a number of people who are, uh, outstanding.

[00:58:00] Uh, appellate advocates and, and have, if not the same talent, I mean Kathleen was, you know, amazing, uh, and one of the leaders of that practice area in the U. S. We have several other super talented people. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Uh, I, uh, my, uh, my name is Jerry Huang from Zhongling Law Firm. I have, can I have two questions, one for U.

S. market, and one for Korea? No, 

XIAO LIU: Chair, you cannot. Only one question for Korea. And I 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: have to choose, uh, the one that, uh, relates to what John has mentioned. You know, you mentioned, uh, uh, Korea market is one of the, you know, the second largest, uh, market in terms of revenue for Queen Emanuel, and the other guests have mentioned, you know, the pull out of many international law firms from the Chinese market.

So, uh, in your, in your expectations, uh, what do you see, you know, China is the second largest economy, and what do you see, like, in the future that China will become, you know, in terms of country wise, uh, you know, the, the The top country or jurisdiction for Queen Emanuel [00:59:00] and what does that mean for, uh, international firms, especially those do, uh, cross border, uh, litigation and investigation work.

JOHN QUINN: So the question is what the, what is the future 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: in terms of how do you, you know, because we see so many Chinese companies are going abroad and a lot of them will run into disputes, you know. I mean, you've answered 

JOHN QUINN: your question, I think, I mean, legal problems. Follow, uh, rise from global businesses, you know, doing business all around the world.

Uh, and that generates legal issues, and that generates, generates work for us. So, as there are more, uh, you know, global Chinese companies, the practice outside China is, is going to grow with that, inevitably. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: And why then, why, you know, you have so, uh, you know, so good people, like, in, in, in your China offices?

Why, you know, China, uh, is not, uh, like, uh, uh, based on what you, you have told us, is not on the [01:00:00] top list of the country where you, you, it generates revenues? Not yet. Not yet, yeah, why? 

JOHN QUINN: Well, I mean, uh, so, I think, um, Korea is an interesting case. Uh, you know, you think about the major global Korean companies which are everywhere.

Hyundai, Samsung, Hanwha, LG. Um, it's kind of an interesting kind of case. We're going to have companies like that globally coming from China as well. So, I'm, I have no doubt that there's going to be plenty for us to do, originally coming from China. Um, and we have the right people to help do that. 

XIAO LIU: So the last question, Yishan, you pick 

YIXUAN ZHU: that one.

The lady on the back. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hello. My name is Yoyo Shi, and I come from a law firm called Dehehen. And I have a case cooperated with Haiyan. [01:01:00] Yeah. And I have a I have actually I have a very I'm very curious about one question on the current. U. S. and China, international situation, I know Queen is very strong in China market and has very strong ability to help the communists to resolve so many questions.

But on the current situation, the global situation, um, will that make some case become very difficult or sensitive? Or how can Queen help clients to navigate through these difficulties? That's my question. Thank you. 

JOHN QUINN: Well, um, there are silver linings, um, when there are disagreements, when there is a time of change, where there's more regulation, where there's friction, when deals that, uh, used to work don't work anymore.

Um, you know, there are silver linings, if you're a litigator. Or you represent [01:02:00] companies in government investigations. Uh, look, there are, there are Chinese companies. That we want to help. We're available. We have the right expertise. Whether it's in China or Washington D. C. or New York or in Dubai or wherever.

So we see this as an opportunity also.

Thank you for listening to Law Disruptive with me, John Quinn. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a rating and review on your chosen podcast app. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, you can sign up for email alerts at our website, law disrupted. fm, or follow me on x at jbq law or at Quinn Emanuel.

Thank you for tuning 

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