How and Why to Start a Law Firm: A Conversation with David Elsberg

John is joined by David Elsberg, the Founding Partner of two law firms, most recently Elsberg, Baker & Maruri.  They discuss the experience of starting a law firm, including the motivations, challenges, and rewards of building a law firm from the ground up.  David is a former Quinn Emanuel partner.  He was inspired to start his own firms by the accounts of John and other Quinn Emanuel partners of the satisfaction they felt from building something new.  He wanted the challenge of starting a firm and learning the business side of legal practice.  Although running a law firm requires a different skill set from practicing law, starting a law firm is not particularly difficult compared to other businesses.  Success depends primarily on assembling the right people.  At first, David was intimidated by the non-legal aspects of starting a business, such as setting up payroll and office infrastructure, but found that hiring skilled professionals made the process manageable.  The most critical factor for success is selecting lawyers who are not only talented, but work well together.  Before starting a new firm, founders should carefully disengage from their current firm.  They need to walk a tightrope in how they communicate their departure to their current firm’s management, colleagues, and clients.  Boutique litigation firms now attract high quality associates because they offer young lawyers more trial experience and closer client relationships.  Many clients also appreciate the hands-on approach of a smaller firm without the bureaucracy of a large organization.  David’s firm prioritizes trial work, handling high-stakes disputes, particularly in finance.  He has found that, while it involves risk, the rewards of independence and creativity in a start-up firm are significant.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn 
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Transcript

LD_DAVID ELSBERG

JOHN QUINN: [00:00:00] This is John Quinn, and this is Law Disrupted, and today we're going to be talking about starting law firms. Why would anyone ever want to do that? I think people probably fantasize, uh, uh, a lot of lawyers fantasize about starting their own law firms. They never do it. Some crazy people actually do it.

Some do it more than once, as David Ellsberg, who we're talking to today. Has done David. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you John so David We're just coming about the fact that he has kind of a you know, what's what's the phrase from Julius Caesar? That yawn lean and hungry look about him when I knew him when I think I think you were my associate at one point Is that true?

No. Oh you joined as a partner? Yeah. Yeah, you were at at some firm. I've start to the W Does it? Did you used to be a

DAVID ELSBERG: No, no, no. Miller and Rubel. So I went from [00:01:00] Wachtell to a small trial firm. 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah. I forgot about Miller and Rubel. I, I, uh But so there came a point in David's career where we thought he was, uh, ready to join Quinn Emanuel.

And, um, there he had a nickname of Honey Badger. Um, I think he was, uh, more substantial than he appears to be now in the image that I'm looking at, uh, and he joined, uh, uh, our firm as a partner, uh, and he left our firm to start another law firm, uh, with, uh, uh, two or three of our partners, I can't remember the exact names, uh, and he was there for a number of years, and now he started yet another law firm, again, and With some of our partners.

So David, what's, I hope you're done with that of like taking our partners and starting new law firms. Can we at least agree on that much? 

DAVID ELSBERG: Uh, we, we can agree unless they come knocking down my door. Yeah. But you don't have to open the door [00:02:00] there. 

JOHN QUINN: So that's, um, and when you joined our firm, uh, in our New York office, we were, we weren't exactly a startup operation.

How big were we then? 

DAVID ELSBERG: There were only about maybe 35 lawyers in New York. 

JOHN QUINN: That was still okay. Well, that was pretty substantial and we can't, so we can't characterize that as a startup operation. Nowhere near though. I don't even know how many people we are there now over 300, I'm sure, uh, for 400, but so, uh, after how many years with us, David, you left to start, uh, over, over 10, maybe 12, 13, 12, 13, and you start another law firm and you were at that firm.

That's the Slendy Gay Firm, became Slendy Gay Ellsberg, I think. Yep. But putting your name in the firm name was not enough to keep you there, apparently, huh? Correct. Correct. So you were there for, uh, how long were you at the Slendy Gay Firm? About six years. Six years. And then just this, uh, [00:03:00] last year you, you started a new firm.

Correct. Which is called, I want to make sure we get it right on the record. Ellsberg, Baker, and Morori. So, why would somebody, and as I ask this question, it's obviously rhetorical, since I've been through this myself, I started a law firm January 1, 1986, with three other people in downtown Los Angeles. Uh, from your perspective, your experience, why, why would you want to start your own law firm and do it twice?

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, so, um, it really, I, I think to do the kind of thing that you did and Bill Urquhart did, um, I, which I always admired and talking with you and also talking with Bill and Peter Calamari, who he also started a firm before he joined Quinn, and then he helped build the New York office, um, I heard from you and I heard from Bill.

I heard from Peter that some of the most [00:04:00] satisfying not, you know, uh, more satisfying necessarily than everything else that happened later and, you know, look at what you've built, but that some of the most satisfying and thrilling times were when you guys were building something and, uh, that was something that I had not done.

I loved. I think, as you know, I loved every single day at Quinn Emanuel every single day. Love the people there. 

JOHN QUINN: Enough. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Well, uh, well, I don't know. I have, I have some former Quinn Emanuel lawyers with me now and, and in all seriousness, um, I still say it won't surprise you that, um, when there's no better litigation firm than Quinn and, and I still have a lot of affection 

JOHN QUINN: without.

Thank you. We don't, we really don't need the plugs, but I'm really interested in learning and you've given us some reasons, uh, creating something yourself. Yes. Um, and. Yeah. 

DAVID ELSBERG: That, that's something that I hadn't done, you know, I've been doing, I've been doing the litigating and doing the trials and, uh, and [00:05:00] I loved that and it was the idea of building something from the bottom up that I thought could be very satisfying and also, uh, a stretch, something that I hadn't done before and learning how to do it and, and it turned out that way.

I mean, as you know, there's, there's a lot that goes into it. That's very different from doing the lawyering. It's, it's really a different skill set. Yeah. 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And I agree with the idea that you really don't know what you're capable of until you put yourself in a position where you have to stretch yourself and then you learn what you can do.

Yes. I think starting a law firm in terms of starting enterprises generally, you know, on the spectrum of degree of difficulty. Uh, starting a law firm is pretty easy. Yes. It turns out that way. It's, it's not like, uh, you know, a sandwich shop, uh, which I, I think could be challenging if you wanted to do it right, but you think about what do you need to start a law firm?

Well, we used to say you need some [00:06:00] space. Now, maybe it's a question of how much space we've given up a couple of floors here in LA, similarly in San Francisco, um, you need some, uh, computer equipment, you need to lease that, you need some staff, uh, you need some legal talent around you to help and support and help grow the practice, uh, you need some clients, but presumably you to You already have some of those or prospects of those or you wouldn't be thinking about going out and hanging Hanging out your shingle, but I so I think in terms of enterprises degree of difficulty starting a law firm It's pretty easy.

I left out the business cards, but even those you don't need 

DAVID ELSBERG: You know, yeah, you don't need those anymore. You have you have linkedin it did turn out that way. So I I think and you were just touching on this. It's really just all about the people Right. If you get great people, that's what a law firm is.

Technology, you know, it's easy to know what technology to [00:07:00] get. And I found two, two things. One, um, you need great lawyers and not just great lawyers, but. Uh, lawyers who like working together, lawyers who like being in the trenches together, and then you need people who know how to do the other stuff. So, we have a terrific CEO and other, uh, non lawyer professionals.

JOHN QUINN: Do you have a CEO? We have non lawyer professionals. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yes, we have a non lawyer. You didn't learn that at Clint Emanuel. I didn't, well, I don't know. I mean, Rebecca in New York, she was getting a hell of a lot done. And Elizabeth Urquhart.

JOHN QUINN: Obviously, we have fabulous support people. We don't call them CEOs, but they run the place.

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, and so, there are things that I don't know how to do, and Rallo and Sulpa don't know how to do outside of the lawyering. 

JOHN QUINN: Raul and Silpa, for those in the audience who don't know, are two of our former partners who David stole [00:08:00] from us, uh, two very, very valued younger partners who David persuaded, enticed, by whatever means, to start his firm with.

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, yeah, um. Well, I'll just agree with the part that you said there. They're fabulous. They're fabulous young lawyers. And I think the the enticement was and, uh, one of the biggest reasons that I wanted to start the place is because, you know, Rallo and Sopa are superstars, great people. I've worked with them for years and we did multiple trials, arbitrations, other cases together, loved Love doing it.

Um, so hopefully that was the, the enticement. 

JOHN QUINN: They're, they're terrific, uh, terrific young lawyers and, um, you know, we're very sorry that they left our, our firm, but, uh, we absolutely wish them, uh, the best. I've told them that, and I mean that, uh, sincerely. What, what were some of the, but look, if you're going to, if you're at an existing firm and you need to, you're going to [00:09:00] go start a firm, one of the things you have to do is figure out how you disengage yourself.

Yep. Uh, and how you, uh, break the news. And you've done that a couple of times now, um, and, you know, I have to tell you, I, I was very, very surprised when I was going down the freeway, the 10 freeway from downtown to Century City, uh, and I got an email. I can't remember if it was from Philippe or Faith. It basically announced we're leaving, and I was utterly shocked.

Uh, I thought that we were a sister and brothers and we had built this incredible office together. Uh, I had no clue, uh, that you guys were thinking about leaving or any dissatisfaction or anything like that. And, I still don't have a clue about why the communication was done that way. And, David, this is the real [00:10:00] reason I wanted to have this podcast.

I had you under oath, and I could ask you this question. Well, you're not under oath. But I'm really curious. Why given The relationships we had and what we had accomplished together in New York. Send an email, and you know, that set in motion a certain, a kind of antagonism that went on for a little while.

And I personally think it all stemmed from, from that. So the floor is yours to sort of, uh, justify yourself as best as you can. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, I won't, I won't justify myself because at least for me, I'm not going to speak for, uh, for the others. But at least for me, I would do it differently. It was a, it was a big mistake.

I wish I had not done it that way. Um, It it was something that we had talked about and um, There there were reasons for doing [00:11:00] it that way um But I for me at least it was a it was a big mistake I I wish that I had just come into your office and mike's office peter's office Uh, I should have done it in person And I regret it a lot what?

Um What flowed from that because I was I did feel like we were brothers. The others that I mentioned some of the people that I was closest with and it was not at all the right way to do it. And I take responsibility for the, um. For the things that that followed and we haven't talked about it before, but I'm happy to say to the world on this on this podcast that, um, I really should have done it differently.

And, uh, I wish that we could have skipped some of the acrimony that did flow from it. I will say in, in some defense myself, I, I did try to [00:12:00] be, um, very good about in other ways, uh, how I left. So I called up the people I was working with on cases. And I said, listen, not going to try to take any cases. I'm going to do everything I can to, uh, help transition and said, and I continue to say, I know you said you don't need the plugs, but I've always said, um, great things about the firm, which again, you don't, you don't need me to say it, but 

JOHN QUINN: I appreciate that.

We don't have to spend more time on this. This isn't some kind of confessional or Oprah Winfrey or anything like that. I just, I mean, it is a practical question when you have to decide. Can you talk? Are you comfortable talking about them when you then left? Yeah. Uh, Celendian Gay, uh, how you told them, or is that something that you'd rather not get into?

DAVID ELSBERG: No, I'll get into a little bit. I'll, I'll get into what I did. I won't talk about, uh, that I don't feel comfortable about. I don't want to characterize what other people did or [00:13:00] why they did it. Um, but I, that time I did do it in person. And, uh, After I told people, I remained in the office until my last day so that I could discuss it with people and explain reasons.

So having, having done it the wrong way the first time with people who has very, very close with and regretted doing it that way the next time around, I, I did it differently. 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah. Um, and then the other issue that one has to face when you're starting a firm and you're already at a firm is the whole issue about client relationships.

You've got some cases. You're already working on, um, you have some prospects, you have some, uh, you know, needles, you have to kind of thread, uh, uh, keep in mind your existing fiduciary duties, both to your partners and, um, to the clients. Yeah, and you may have a partnership agreement that addresses how those kinds of [00:14:00] things are dealt with.

Um, I mean, how do you think, how have you thought about those things? I mean, because the whole point of starting a firm, you want to know on day one, you're going to have some work to do. You'll be able to keep the wolf from the door. But on the other hand, you really can't be, there are limits to how much preparation you can do, how you can set that up.

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, so that was one thing that I wasn't at all worried about. And that that was one of the easy part. So I developed strong relationships with clients. And these were cases where I was very active in in the cases. And so when I announced and let them know, uh, it was a natural thing that they were going to follow and then continue to, uh, continue to call After I left and, you know, Raul and Sulpa, they've also had success, uh, you know, the phone rings for all of us.

So that that was actually not the part [00:15:00] that I was concerned about the thing that I was concerned about more was whether or not we'd be able to recruit the types of associates, the very top associates that we would want to recruit because you start a law firm. We started in February. So, um, It's not even during the recruiting season, and if somebody could go to a Quinn Emanuel or a Cravath or a Wachtell, why go to a place that just started?

That, knock on wood, has turned out great. If you go on the website, you look at the associates, their associates, any firm, would want. And on that, I, you know, I was happily surprised. How did you do it? So, so first of all, it was surprising. We thought that we were going to use recruiters, but we ended up not having to do that.

There were people who reached out to us, some that were Quinn, some that were, uh, at Salendi Gay Ellsberg, now Salendi and Gay. And then there were also people who reached out, um, That we didn't [00:16:00] know. Um, one example, there's a phenomenal guy who he was from Harvard Law School, Harvard Law Review. He had been in the military straight A's, didn't know him, but he reached out.

And what I was going to say is I, I think that a, a reason that's happened is unlike when I was in law school, you were in law school. Now the, uh, people who are responsible for placing students, they plug boutique. Litigation firms, they, they tell their students, here's an option. It's a different type of option.

And then there are also I've just learned this over the last year or so. There are also some groups at law schools that are sort of, um. Uh, a natural fit for us. And maybe you found this also, but there, there have been plaintiffs, uh, uh, law school groups or, or associations for lawyers who are interested in being trial lawyers and doing some plaintiff [00:17:00] side work.

And like you, we do about 50 50. We're on both sides of the V. And so we have gotten matched up with some of those groups. And there's a lot of interest because, as you know, uh, if you, If you go to a lot of the biggest, most successful firms and what you want to be doing is plaintiff side work or really doing trial work, you just can't do that.

And so I think that there's been an effort to give a lot of exposure to the litigation firms that do big cases and do it on both sides of the V. 

JOHN QUINN: Yeah. And I mean, I think there's also an appeal. Uh, to start up firms for young people, but they feel they can, you know, get in on the ground floor, be part of contributing to creating something.

I mean, that has a definite appeal. It's going to require a certain type of person who has a certain willingness to assume some risk. So, you know, the kind of people you're describing, as you said, could get a position anywhere. a risk free position where it'll be risk free [00:18:00] for at least eight or nine years.

Uh, but, um, I think there is a certain appeal to that. You get an entrepreneurial type of person, an enterprising kind of person. Um, and, and that, that has advantages for the firm, too, to get the, those kind of, the people with that kind of DNA in a startup. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yep. It's a, a self selecting group. Um, and look the same, the same for the partners.

So Rallo Sopa, um, Jared Rocco, all former Quinn lawyers. Um, we all felt the same way about that, that we wanted to do something enterprising and, and the things that you described and Mike Duke and Vivek Tata, they were at, um, Cei, you, you need partners who are all thinking that way and also have the ability to, to bring in business and inspire confidence.

And each of those lawyers have been fantastic at that. Um, and then the same [00:19:00] for the associates. And I think that associates, when they, um, have thought about us, I think that, um. We have a big advantage. Thanks to you. And what I mean by that is you have three former co chairs of practice groups at your firm.

And I think that inspires confidence that it's not so much of a risk because, um You know, there are people that are, are well established and, uh, Jared and, and Mike and Vivek also, they had developed a, a reputation that I think made it feel like it's a, it's a good bet with people who should do well.

JOHN QUINN: I mean, what, what challenges have you faced?

Either time, uh, starting a law firm. 

DAVID ELSBERG: So the, the first time I would say that the, that there were two, there were two challenges. [00:20:00] One is, um, the, the group that I went with was, um, Uh, not sort of the group that I was closest with at Quinn. So, for example, I was very close with Rallo and and Silpa. They had sort of been practicing as a group on the R.

M. B. S. Cases and I was sort of, you know, outside of that doing other things and so I missed and as I said, I still do miss a lot of people at Quinn. So that was 1, the, the, the 1st time and. The other is, and it turned out not to be a well founded difficulty, but it was the stuff that you were talking about earlier that turns out to be easy, but it was intimidating to me, so I genuinely was thinking about how do you even Where do you get your printer paper?

[00:21:00] You know, and, and no joke. And what about, what about payroll and all the aspects of the sort of machinery of the business? Because that was something I had not done. 

JOHN QUINN: The whole back office and HR and all that. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, the whole, I felt, I felt totally comfortable about, well, how do you do a trial? How do you, you know, the lawyering of it, but it was, it was the other stuff that was a complete mystery to me.

And then it turns out, as I, as I said, the key is finding people. Professionals who know how to do those things. And if you can pick the right people and they're trustworthy and great at what they do, but, uh, I didn't know that. And so that was something that was, was daunting to me. And then also look, it's not all so easy there.

There are things that I, that I had to figure out and, um, mistakes and even down to things like you pick, uh, you know, something mundane, you pick the wrong software for, uh, tracking invoices and inputting time, or, uh, you [00:22:00] have a, uh, Uh, you put any system in place and then you have to undo it or, uh, you know, maybe you start doing something, uh, with lawyers and you think, oh, well, that's not a great idea.

So 11 thing that I still think is a good idea. But it was it was a little bit of a surprise that. We had forums where we would say to associates, Hey, tell us, what is it that you would like us to do better? And then found it could actually, if you don't do it right, end up causing frustration because if people say, Hey, I want this to change and then it doesn't 

change, 

it can really, it can really backfire 

JOHN QUINN: for forming, forming those associate committees is empowering.

It is doesn't always doesn't always end happily 

DAVID ELSBERG: It doesn't always end happily and and then you know what you try to do Is if you can't change the things that are raised [00:23:00] Explaining why that is and I found that is very helpful because there's usually a very good reason not to do it um, but but that was something that I had to learn and look that's just a um one component of of I guess law firm Governance.

And that was also, as I said, that was going to be a stretch for me because I hadn't done it. And you, you said something over the years that I think we're trying to copy where I am now, where I am now. So Rallel, SILPA, Jared, Vivek, Mike, myself, you, I heard you say over the years when people would ask you, well, what's it like being the managing partner of this enormous law firm?

Yeah. And I, I heard you say, or correct me if you think I didn't hear you correctly, but I heard you say things to the effect of, I don't try to manage the lawyers. I wouldn't want to try to manage. 

JOHN QUINN: You can't do it. It's [00:24:00] impossible. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Well, people try people, people, I think it's a big mistake. I, I, you know, the idea of sort of command and control from the top and, and dictating, this is what's going to happen.

That's something that I wanted to, um, get away from. I don't think it works. 

JOHN QUINN: All you can do is try to create an environment and provide people support. And, you know, basically people analogize the managing partner's role to that of the fire hydrant. You know, you got to be available and sometimes just listening, uh, and you have to act on things too.

But command and control is not going to happen. 

DAVID ELSBERG: No, no. So that's also something that was new as a managing partner at my former firm. Um, and so pretty quickly got a, you know, crash course in seeing. Different ways that it could be different ways that it could be done. And, uh, where I am now, it's the same.

We try [00:25:00] to do the same kind of model that you described where it's sort of hands off. And then, as you said, support if thing, if there are things that are needed. I remember in the New York office, one of the things that I love at the When was I think maybe we had partner meetings, maybe three times a year, four times a year.

People are off running their cases. Mostly each person deciding how they're going to do things. And then, of course, there were things that you and Peter Calamari and others were deciding on a You know, for the firm, the entire firm, but a lot of it was let, let choose really good people and let them do their thing.

JOHN QUINN: Yeah, no, I, I think that, uh, the, the key thing is that really the only assets, it's almost a truism. The only assets law firms have are the talent and judgment of the lawyers in the firms. Uh, and the, so the biggest decision, the most important decision you make is who you practice law with. [00:26:00] If you get that right.

Things will be fine, you know, good lawyers don't need to be managed in any sense. Uh, if you get it wrong, that's going to be a problem. Uh, but one thing that I've always thought, uh, I believe to be true that. Who you hire is a signal to the marketplace and who you hire early on the first hires are super important, uh, both because there is, uh, they are a, uh, signal to the marketplace, but because they are creators and carriers of what the culture of your firm is going to be.

Uh, so that's, that's really, really important. And I know in Rollo and Silpa, you've gotten, uh, terrific people for that role. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yes, incredibly talented, great reputations in the marketplace and also as important, if not more important, um, solid, good people, lots of integrity and. Uh, fun, just [00:27:00] really great to, to practice with and just going to how important that can be.

Um, you know, when I joined the New York office at, at Quinn and then went over to the California office, the culture, it really was the same. It was, you know, the attitude and, and the way people work together. And, you know, obviously one of the biggest losses that has happened is Bill passed away. Yeah. Yeah, Bill, Bill Urquhart.

And I know from having heard stories and I remember being there that, you know, he, he had a vision and you could just, you could see it coming true. And you had a vision, uh, and, and a way of, of, um, execution and, and sort of inspiring people that, um, it, you know, the, the, the impact that a few people, uh, can, can have really is, yeah.

Really is [00:28:00] extraordinary. 

JOHN QUINN: Let's, um, I mean, there'll be people who listen to this, who have been thinking about starting their own firms, um, other than the things you've already said, are there some things that you would pass along to them, things they should think about? 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah. So one is, um, as you said, it's actually.

Easier than you might, I think that there are a lot of people who, um, uh, you know, if they did a thought exercise, if I could stay where I am now do spectacularly well, or if I started a firm with people who are terrific. And I would do spectacularly well if I knew that it was going to succeed, which button would I push?

I think there are a lot of lawyers who would press the second button, but there's sort of a fear factor, including because I think a lot of lawyers find the same things daunting that I did, just the non [00:29:00] lawyering parts of it. So, that's easier. And the second part would be, and this is something that I, that I've learned is, um, the, the people, you know, they, they can't just be spectacular lawyers that you start with.

They, they need to be more than that. They, they need to be people that, uh, you, you are friends with, close with, are like minded about certain things and not Like minded about others, and you're able to disagree, and there's no hard feelings. I'll say yesterday, Rollo and I were, were yelling at each other and, um, and then 10 minutes later, it's nothing.

That's, you know, we can really disagree with each other, and I think that's very important. You can't have people where if you disagree, it's going to be viewed as, uh, you know, disloyalty or, or that there's going to be, uh, sort of simmering resentment. It has to be people that you can have fun with, and you can also disagree with, um, And I think [00:30:00] if you have that plus an enormous amount of talent and people, um, like our, our CEO, um, Josette Winograd, who, um, same thing and, and on the, the sort of professional non lawyer side of things, that's everything.

And again, like, you know, you and Peter and Bill and Mike and, uh, and others, Rick Warder, you get. You get the right people and then, especially with the management style that we talked about earlier, they're going to go off and they're the ones that are going to make the firm a great place.

JOHN QUINN: Let's talk a 

little 

bit about your firm.

Sure. What you and Rallo and Silp are doing. Uh, what, what do you see yourself as? What's your self image? Uh, what are your aspirations as a law firm? What you're doing now? When should people be thinking about calling you when we're conflicted? 

DAVID ELSBERG: Yeah, so, so first I have to go back to something you [00:31:00] said at the very beginning, I still, since you asked about my image of myself, view myself as a honey badger because the connotation of that was very aggressive and I still think of myself that way.

JOHN QUINN: You know that's my middle name is Badger, you know that John B. Quinn. It's literally your middle name. Badger. It's a pretty good name for a lawyer. 

DAVID ELSBERG: It's a very good name for a lawyer. Um, but, but more, more seriously, in, in terms of what we're doing, we're, we're doing the, the same type of work that, uh, we had been doing at Quinn.

In fact, as you know, we have several cases where we're co counseling with Quinn and we've had several cases. Against Quinn. So, so it's the, the same types of cases, both sides. 

JOHN QUINN: What's the score, what's the score on those cases? 

DAVID ELSBERG: You shouldn't have asked. We're two and oh against you? 

JOHN QUINN: Um, I'm gonna have to look into that.

You gotta look, look, I gotta hear, look into it. I gotta hear 

Mike's, uh, version of that. 

DAVID ELSBERG: Uh, there's no, there's no, there's no version of it. It's, it's, [00:32:00] it's court decisions. Um, so. Um, we're still doing those types of cases, big, big ticket cases, and, um, we're, we're going to continue to do that. We, we do the cases in a different way that, for example, then, uh, a firm like yours, you have offices all over the place.

And so you can sort of bring in the cavalry and, and especially when there's, um, uh, Uh, you can use the I remember you leveraged the time zone so you would go you could start a brief or whatever in New York hand it off to california and sort of follow the sun around the globe So it's trade offs, right?

We don't have some of that but um, we do have a very cohesive group of partners know each other well and clients have said to us more than once that They are less happy with a larger firm because they feel that there are [00:33:00] layers of people. They're not getting the attention they want. And because of that, we've been able to get, um, you know, very again, the types of cases that you guys do.

And that's why we're co counseling and against you guys and other firms at the top, like, like you guys. Um, we've been pretty heavy in the financial sector just because. Okay. Each of us have done that. So, as you know, I was the co chair Quinn of the investment fund practice and I still a lot of my cases end up being for private equity hedge funds, um, and, and the like, and same for simple Rallo, Mike, the vague Jared, uh, but we're all over the map.

We have basically almost any type of business case. You can that you can get and I would say maybe the. Uh, the thing that distinguishes us most from a lot of other firms is the number of trials that we get called on to do. So in less than a year, [00:34:00] we've done four or five big ticket arbitrations and trials, a couple of them side by side with you and.

You know, if you look per lawyer, we have 20 lawyers now having that number of trials over your first year when we were just growing to 20 lawyers per capita. That is a lot of trials. So we really have been out there. We have a reputation for that. And what that means is, and this has been a real draw for young lawyers is I don't think there's a place where young lawyers will get more experience early than where we are now.

It's incredibly important to all of us. And all of our first years were involved in an arbitration or trial in, uh, in our first year, every single one. And like Molly O'Keefe, who you may remember, uh, She, uh, I'm going to be doing an arbitration with her in a few weeks, and she's going to be doing part of the opening statement, part of the [00:35:00] closing statement.

She's going to be taking witnesses, defending witnesses. Uh, and, you know, she's a relatively junior lawyer. So, um. In terms of drawing, recruiting people. I think that is a big distinguishing factor for us. And I think for for clients, it's where I think we're known and we get hired to do cases that might go to trial or cases that they don't want to go to trial because we're known as a as a real trial threat.

And also, you know, we on our website. It's as aggressive, creative, fearless and hopefully we can. Deliver that to our clients. I think we, I think we do. 

JOHN QUINN: Well, David, I very much, uh, have enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for spending some time with us. Likewise. So we've been speaking with a serial law firm, entrepreneur and founder.

I've only founded one law firm. This man has founded two law firms now. [00:36:00] David Ellsberg. This is John Quinn, and this has been Law Disrupted.

Thank you for listening to Law Disrupted with me, John Quinn. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a rating and review on your chosen podcast app. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, you can sign up for email alerts at our website, law disrupted. fm or follow me on x at jbq law or at Quinn Emanuel.

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