Where Do I Belong? Childfree Life on the Margins with Amanda B. (Part 2) - Ep 63

"Where are you from?" is a question asked all too often of people who are visibly "not white." So what does it mean to be American in a melting pot of immigrants?  

Picking up where we left off last time, guest Amanda reflects back on her 5 years in Japan and we touch on certain taboo topics like:

• race vs ethnicity vs nationality
• how the Koreans are the Irish of Asia
• governments' attacks on low birth rates
• the cult of parenthood
• parental regret

Host and childfree Latina Paulette and childfree guest Amanda continue to examine the cross-cultural parallels in their respective upbringings, how that led to successful partnerships with their husbands, and why the government wants to blame low birth rates for shrinking populations instead of changing immigration laws.

To get the full show notes, and an episode transcript, go to PauletteErato.com/shownotes. This is episode 63.

About Amanda B.:
Amanda B. (she/her) is the writer, host and producer of 6 Degrees of Cats, the world's #1 cat-themed culture, history (and sometimes science) podcast. She leverages her background in research, mental health advocacy, professional development and trauma-informed violence prevention to thoughtfully connect topics as disparate as sainthood, Vikings and Valentine's May to the world's most populous domesticated pet (...or are they?). Amanda has consulted in creative direction, education and community development and volunteers as sexuality and relationships expert on free youth mental health app OkaySo.

Amanda is also a musician - she leads NYC-based rock 'n' roll band, Leathered and has supported major recording artists as a guitarist on international stages. Her cats Binky and Snuggles do not appreciate her impromptu serenades.

Listen to 6 Degrees of Cats https://episodes.fm/1669849217
Follow Amanda on:
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/6degreesofcats/
Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@6degreesofcats

Build a community with Non-Mom May on Instagram. Find us all through the hashtag #NonMomMay & follow me @pauletteerato.

Transcript

1:13

Buen día, mi gente, and welcome to La Vida Más Chévere de Childfree Latinas, the only Spanglish podcast for childfree Latinas y Latines who are designing their best lives by actively letting go of the toxic cultural brainwashing we all grew up with. I'm your host and the childfree Latina, Paulette Erato. When we ended last week's episode, I had asked Amanda a question about Japan's progress to becoming. Well, progressive. She has some thoughts, but what this episode is really about is that thing I'm always yammering on about community and finding your people. That's what we're drilling down into here, where Amanda found her people. Like she said, in the first episode, she didn't have a community that looked like her growing up in West Michigan. In this episode, she doubles down and explains that not only did she feel like a complete and invisible outsider for most of the first 18 years of her life, you know, those crucial formative years? But that West Michigan isn't friendly, contrary to the popular opinion that Midwesterners are such nice people. Of course, there's exceptions, just like her. She is so very nice and kind, especially for someone who lives in New York, a city known for being, as she describes the West Michiganders, brusque, terse, kind of rude. Interesting, huh? So how does one find our people? How do you cultivate a community when you feel invisible? When you're pushed to the margins because you aren't abiding by society's preferred life script? Do you have to leave home and go on a hero or a shero's journey like Amanda did, leaving Michigan for Japan and then making her life in New York? I'll let Amanda tell you how she did it, but I also have another option for you. We're building a community over on Instagram through Non Mom May, which is bringing together disparate people of all cultures, all walks of life. We're forming our own support system, our own network, which Amanda is also a part of. If you're also feeling left out of your own social circle, especially because of your single or childless slash childfree status, I'd love for you to join us. Details are in the show notes. All you have to do is show up, drop a comment. In the meantime, back to Amanda, let's go listen to what she has to say. Do you think Japan has made progress? I think there's progress always. I mean, it's kind of forced by quote unquote the market because they're trying to attract investment and it's just a bad look if your values don't align with what's approved by corporate. I mean, I haven't been there or lived there in a long time and I don't want to undermine all the hard work of the really amazing activists and thought leaders. Jap, Japanese culture is, is every culture has its own like narrative and story. I mean, a lot of people want to cluster it. I mean, Korean culture is very different than Japanese. It's dramatically different. They like to joke. I'm going to say it. I'm going to probably get in trouble, but there's like this joke that Korean Americans sometimes say, it's like, we're the Irish of Asia. And so I'm going to say like, I could do a whole podcast on this. You could. I could, you know, think about it. Pushing back against colonialism from an island nation that has a very strong Navy. And things and it's like supremacist, like super imperialistic. Love potatoes, huge drinking culture, lots of melancholy in the music. Let me think here. I went over this with an Irish American person and we were having a good time with this. When we're done here, you are going to email me this list because I need to, I'm going to, this is going to be saved. for the newsletter subscribers. We're going to give them that list. Oh, it's hilarious. I mean, I wasn't raised culturally Korean, but I will tell you. But yeah, I mean, I think Korea's progress is, I think, a little bit more visible by nature of how different feelings and sentiments are expressed. But you've probably heard that the women are refusing to have sex and reproduce, which is very topical to this podcast. But that's not, that's not really happening in Japan, or actually it is happening. It's been happening since like the early 2000s. But it's not voluntary, like they have such a low childbirth rate. But it's because literally women cannot, they can't do anything or they couldn't. Like there was no equal protection of salary, I believe. And childcare is really hard. You really are expected to quit your job and live at home, but then the cities are getting smaller, municipalities are collapsing and merging because. These childless villages have to merge. And I say this not as a bad thing, because again, this is what happens. You either set up people for success, as you had said earlier, or this is what happens and you're going to have to deal with it in a different way. Governments really love to push the low birth rate as the reason for how our futures are going to collapse because no one's having babies. But do you know what the other way to increase one's population is, I know you know this, is allowing immigration. No, but those people don't look like us. They're not culturally us. How could they ever assimilate into American culture? You and I are both not "American." Exactly. And yet, we are American culture. We're so American, like, right, exactly, in, in, in the, in the sense of the story of America. Right. And the story of America is one of immigrants. Yes. Immigrants and colonizers, but that wasn't our people, so we're going to let ourselves off the hook. I mean, it's a story of colonizing. That's right. Having, having lived in the contemporary colony for a short time, I can tell you that it's, it's bad. Yes, in coming back to Japan, that was in the early 2000s when I taught a lesson on where are you from? And I was like, no, we're going to teach you the real way so that you're not going to perpetuate the way that people ask it in America. I taught my students how to say, what is your ethnicity? What is your nationality? And well, I did say, what is your race? Just to show them that those are distinct things. Yeah. Because in Japan, if you're Japanese, like the answer is the same for all those questions. I think at the time it was like 98 percent or 97 percent of Japan was ethnically Japanese. And only like a small number of people were allowed to be given Japanese nationality. It would usually be somebody of extreme talent. So I would use like this baseball player as an example. Okay. His, his ethnicity is this, his race is this, his nationality. Ah, it's Japanese. And then they were like, Oh, and that's it. But you know, I mean, it's not a Japanese thing. I mean, Americans don't know that either. They'll say, what's your nationality? I'm like, it's American. No, but you know what I mean? I'm like, no, I don't. The word means, what is your passport? My passport's American. I was about to ask you, how often do you get the, where are you from, question? All the time. All the time. Well, I would, Growing up or still? Oh yeah, still. Really? More in New York. And I think, I think that one of the things that I've been privileged to have the capacity for is giving people a little bit of grace with that because there's different ways people ask, right? Where are you from? Sure. Somebody who doesn't care isn't going to ask follow-up questions, doesn't have genuine curiosity and you can just kind of tell that they're not going to learn their lesson. And I'm not going to give them any grace because they know better. But then there's like, say, the Uber driver who is trying to empathize with a fellow person who is not from here. And I have all the time in the world for them until it gets creepy. And then when it gets creepy, I'm like, okay, we're not going to talk about me anymore. Oh well. You get when you're friendly. I guess that's a Midwestern in me. You are so Midwestern! The longer we talk, the more it's coming out! Okay, okay, I'm gonna claim it. My husband's from the Midwest, too. I have an affinity for you people. Oh my god, I really did just say you people! That's okay! I knew I was coming from a place of love. I say you people about cats all the time. You people being the Midwesterners. Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah, that's okay. That's okay. I have an affinity for you Midwesterners, which is a very interesting place to grow up, I'm sure. Well, there's different variations on that theme too. I mean, even among we Midwesterners, I don't know. I just blame the Dutch Protestant settlers who were kicked out of Holland for being party poopers and started all these super strict religions, which created like Betsy DeVos and all those wonderful people who decided that their way is the only way, and decided to just wreak havoc on the Department of Education. Tell me how you really feel. Oh, my gosh. I'm just being polite now. Is that Midwestern in you coming out? Oh, my gosh. Michigan, this is how I'm different. West Michigan people are kind of like, what's that word? Brusque. Brusque. And blunt in the worst ways. I don't know how to describe it. They're kind of like hate, hater energy is what I would describe it as. Oh. West Michigan people can fight me on that. I will totally prove them right. Prove myself right here. I want to hear from other Midwesterners or Western Michiganers. It's a very West Michigan thing. Every time I meet someone from West Michigan, I know I'm not necessarily finding my people. Maybe it's me. Let me ask you a completely different question. Where have you found your people? New York. Whoever you consider your people. We are each other's people. Throughout your life, it sounded like you were saying you felt a little bit like an outsider. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So where did you find your people? In the margins. The margins, but more specific to that, like you're in New York city now, you're a working musician. How, how did you find these groups that you felt accepted by? You felt embraced by? Who did you embrace? Well, I, I kept interjecting New York cause I have to say after the, the two years are tough when you first moved to New York, unless you're like super rich and all your rich friends like welcomed you and you already had that. Yeah. It's a tough place, but once you're in your stripes, it's just, it's incredible. Any place that, that just is accepting of people's quirks, and that would be New York, that would be in artist spaces, that would be in places where there's learning, but not institutionalized learning. I don't think higher ed is really great for that. I hate to say it, but I do think places where people are developing themselves. I think the common point is where people come to learn and grow and experiment. Yeah. The places I find my people. Did you hear that click in the background just now? Probably not because one of my editing filters took it out, but that was the sound of my ring breaking. I cut out that part immediately afterwards with my shock and awe, but I saved it in a TikTok, which I'll link you in the show notes. I jokingly asked how I was going to prove I was married to a Midwesterner, which spun our interview in a new direction. We're going to talk more around the theme of that man versus bear hypothetical floating around the internet these days, but we're going to do it in defense of the men we chose as partners. This isn't a "not all men, rah, rah" stance, but it is a conversation around healthy relationships, which Amanda refers to as additive. And that's not something we see a lot of examples of in the media these days. So, I thought I would share ours. Also, she references the episode my husband Ryan and I did together about our experience in Puerto Rico, which will also be in the show notes. Also, our wedding anniversary is right after this episode drops, so I figured, what the hell? Let's start celebrating early. And he seems like such a great guy, I loved your episode with him. Oh, thank you, thank you so much! He's my exact opposite, he doesn't like to be on camera, he's a total introvert, like, leave him alone. And he will just go do good things. But I was really happy to have him on. I love him lots. Oh, it's obviously he loves you a lot too. As I know, you love your partner as well. Yeah. I feel like we both have met our, I believe there's multiple soulmates and spiritual like kin and absolutely Eddie is one of them. Like he, I don't know. I'm sure it's the same with your partner. He just like gets, like, I can say one word and he gets the inside weird joke or the random pop culture reference. It's bonkers. It's amazing. Yeah. There's just, there's a language within a partnership that develops when you're truly connected. And I think that lockdown was a real test of this for some couples. I don't know if it was the same for you, but we were so grateful we did not have children in those circumstances because the house would have felt really small. Oh, it's not just you at all. But the other part of it was that we were good. We were good together. And you know, there was, there was a little bit of feeling like we were crawling the walls, like maybe feeling like your cats when they're getting really antsy and they see birds outside their helicopter. That was a great post. I'll link it in the, in the newsletter. But like my husband and I are a team against the world. Going through the Puerto Rico experience together, it was never us against each other and Puerto Rico. It was us two together against our situation. And Puerto Rico wasn't the problem, right? It was the situations we found ourselves in or the problem. So yeah, like he's my person against the world. I love that. I wish I had known you back when I was doing healthy relationships clinics when I worked at the gender based violence prevention organization. Because people need to hear it. Your relationship with your husband is, I don't think there's any like templates, but that is how you should feel when you, when you decide to commit to somebody long-term. That is That is beautiful and wonderful. And that's like the shining example and it's never portrayed ever in TV or pop culture. I mean, I guess it wouldn't make for great television. Right. That's the thing. Like, Oh, equal partners that give each other the spotlight in a healthy way and don't feel threatened by each other. Yeah. Where's the story there? Right. Compromise. What's that look like? It's so much better to make the woman the ball and chain and the man a dope. And, you know, again, these are stereotypes that are toxic and yet we keep perpetuating them. Amanda's no dummy. She's not going to hitch her boat up to a dummy dock either. Like, your partner, I'm sure that knowing you how I know you and I don't know your partner, I would expect nothing less than something similar to what I have in my relationship. Yes, absolutely. One of the biggest, not tests, but one of the biggest truth moments in relationships is when you, when you move through conflict, when you move through challenge and you're able to grow together. Yeah. And I don't necessarily believe when you, when it's revealed you can't, that it's a failure because I don't believe that all relationships are meant to be forever. That's another false myth that ties into this whole reproductive thing that we talk about in your, in your podcast. But, um, the pandemic was weirdly kind of not great. It was very scary and terrifying, especially for Asian American folks. My, my husband is a Filipino American. When we both experienced scary moments, you know, because of course we look Chinese, like that's messed up, but you know, that stuff was happening. Thankfully things have stabilized and like, we, I feel very grateful. We have a lot of good things to celebrate in our lives. But I will say that was coming back to just, this, the growth that you experience when you go through something as difficult as like the stuff you have managed when you move to San Juan. And it's like, those are the things that grow you as a person and you have choices and it's just really beautiful when the outcome is that, wow, we were good together at that. We saw each other through this. So thank you for sharing that too about you and your, your husband. I just love hearing about people finding their people, you know? Yeah. And it's, it's, I wish that for everyone. I want that for everyone because I think we all deserve our person or persons, you know, that, that soulmate might embody multiple bodies. But I know that my marriage is one of the things I don't need to worry about when things get tough. My husband had to, had to, had to play the caregiver role and, and, and has had to repeat that several times in Puerto Rico as well and that was the scariest time. I was once again feeling like I couldn't pull my weight so to speak and Ryan had to take all that on and it was. There is no, you owe me for this. We don't keep score. It's just that I know I can count on him and, and vice versa. Well, all I can say is I love that your relationship and my relationship is additive. Both ways and that may everybody have that and know that kind of love. And you know, having kids is different. It's funny. I'm sure you've talked about this essay. I'm very curious about this. It rocked media. It was, I think her name's Ayelet Waldman and she is married to a writer who's very famous as well. She wrote this essay about how she actually loves her husband more than her kids. And it was astounding how much backlash she got for that essay. Truly madly guilty. I just found it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It is a read and it is a bold read. And she's talking about how she would be able to survive the loss of her children. She would not be able to survive the loss of her husband. And I'm like, that's going to make people feel a certain way. Yeah. It goes against every single narrative we have about what women are meant to say and do about their roles in life. And there just was an article published. I'm sure again, I know you've probably read this. The writer happens to be Asian American, about people who regret being parents. I am so glad that people finally have the guts to say it out loud. Yeah. Because part of the marketing of the myth of motherhood being the end all be all is that it's not for everybody and that you might feel regret, but you won't know. Right? And so when parents speak out about it and are, are bold and are brave, because I think it's very brave to do that. I think our society doesn't allow for it. And so to be brave enough to say, I regret this decision, which is a life altering one. You're just giving more information to the people who haven't made the decision yet. And I think that that is good information to have. And I'm not here to persuade someone one way or the other. I'm here, Amanda is here to prove that childfree women exist and we're happy with the way that we are. We're not going to make excuses. We don't need your validation. We're just examples of a different way of existing. We didn't conform to this one particular standard, and we're okay for it. We're better for it. So when someone pulls the curtain aside and says, you know what, this wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and here's why. We all loved the reveal in The Wizard of Oz, so we should also applaud people who are willing to, to do the same for parenthood, men and women, and the theys and the thems, everyone. There are plenty of people that want to recruit others to be parents. It's, it's like a religion. It's like a cult. It is a cult. It's totally a cult mindset. And I think truly the reason why isn't, isn't even this biological imperative. I think it's because, it is very isolating to change your life so dramatically. And you knew, you do need community and I think the other side of all these wonderful things you're saying, Paulette, is that I don't need to be a parent to "parent." I parent all the young people. I parent people older than me and, and, and young people parent me as well. And, and I think that coming back to that podcast episode and that life changing course I took, this weird perception that gestating a fetus and delivering it to full term is intrinsically an act of mothering. I don't, I think even that premise is a little diminishing to people who have adopted. It's diminishing to people who have mentored. It's diminishing to people who have played a parent role. I want to stop here because I recognized a pattern. Amanda said something that has been repeated by multiple guests before about acting as a parent, even if you aren't one biologically, and of being parented by the people around them. Both my mom, who is clearly not childfree, and my guest Talia, who most definitely is childfree, both of them talked about parental relationships that they found themselves on both sides of where they were not the biological parent or the biological child. And remember, Amanda is adopted. Her parents aren't her blood relatives. My mom talked about how her first two grandchildren aren't her blood relatives either because she's my brother's stepmom. Why am I bringing this up? Because it's a great time to reflect on what parenting actually means. It's clearly not limited to the commonly considered parent-child relationship or even biological relationships. Yet, we have a very narrow, socially acceptable definition of what motherhood and parenthood are. Why is that? Is this just another trick of the patriarchy to force women into this one role, part of a bigger marketing scam that has shoved down our throats about what a woman's true purpose is? That we're worthless unless we fulfill this one motherhood role? When there's so many more roles for us to play? Yeah, I think so. It's yet another toxic norm uncovered. What if we saw the parental relationship through a wider lens? If we accepted that not everyone is meant to be a parent and that that frees them up to put that potential parental energy into other endeavors, maybe we'd start dissolving these artificial divisions that Amanda and I talked about in part one of this interview. If you haven't caught up, go listen to that episode after you finish this one. And let me tell you the other side of the story of people who regret having children. There are so many adults in therapy who damn well knew their parents regretted having them, but because nobody talks about that, nobody's willing to admit. They're shamed for it. There's no resources created for that. Not only is that person kind of gaslit in their experience, they can't form a different type of parent child relationship because those relationships evolve. You'll hear a lot of kids who are like, I, parents were never there when I was younger. And now we have this beautiful friendship. Maybe they weren't my parents and maybe I don't even see them as a parent now. But they are in my life as adults or vice versa, you know, my parent is dead to me. They were wonderful when I was growing up, or at least they were present and had an impact on me when I was growing up, but I can't have a relationship with them now as an adult. What does that mean? You know, for motherhood or parenting, there's all these stories and narratives and valid experiences that are just so denied when we literally have, you are only a whole person of your gender if you have this role with respect to the reproduction. We're fighting the good fight, Amanda. Just giving people a platform. Imagine, right? Validating feelings. I'm just grateful that you, I think that you do such wonderful work with your podcast, just celebrating, giving air to this. Honestly, before I met you, I really hadn't thought of childfree as an identity and as a label. And I think it's just such an important one because the "I'm a parent" is a huge label. It gives you social status, tax benefits. And you know what? Before I started this podcast, I didn't think of it as a label either. It's just become one I identify with. I call it a core identity, but not my only one. Like it's not the most important one to me. What I want people to take away from our conversation and from the podcast as a whole is that you have choices. Here are examples of choices and you are not beholden to a script you have been fed your entire life, if that feels uneasy for you. Just to let people know they have choices. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with us because we're childfree. Not at all. And in fact, it gives us the ability to do other things that this world needs. Amen to that, friend. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for, for, for pouring yourself out like this. I know it's very late where you are, although as a musician, maybe your night's just starting. Oh yeah. Well, you know, I like to say I live like a house cat sometimes, you know? I wonder why. Apartment living, taking naps. I actually had a coach who said, you should channel a cat. Cause it's cause one thing we were working on was what's, what is Amanda at rest to like? Cause I mean, another side of this insidious myth is you're worth nothing if you're not producing something or being good or doing good things, which is toxic as heck. Big toxic myth. Is there anything else we should know about Amanda B? Oh my gosh, well, season two of Six Degrees of Cats wrapped earlier this month, and it was just a pleasure to produce, and I'm definitely going to have to have you on, Paulette. We wrapped up and I'm in production for season three, I'm really excited about that, it'll come out in the fall 2024. And then I'm also going to be Touring with Gina Volpe of Luna Chicks, who is also a fantastic, awesome, childfree, femme rock star. And we're opening for L7. Are you kidding? Yeah. Oh, didn't I tell you this? No, you didn't tell me. I got hired to play guitar for her band. Yeah. We're opening three dates in May. We're opening the 13th in Richmond, Virginia, and then we're going to be on the 16th, I think, in Albany and the 17th in Buffalo, New York. So those are going to be really fun shows. And I have my band Leathered, and we're working on a new record and we're going to be playing a show in Brooklyn on June 15th, but I really hope we'll be able to tour someday. It's expensive. All the people who make a living off of their art, they have some passive source of income or support. And there's no shame. Good. That is what people should be able to do. But I was like, if you don't have it, it's very hard to grow your stuff. Cause you have to be able to play a lot of shows and make a lot of visual assets and stuff. So I'm not complaining, just stating a fact, but we will get there. I'm excited and proud, but thank you so much, Paulette. And I would be honored to be on Six Degrees of Cats because it is my favorite podcast in the entire world. Oh my God. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, Amanda. I really admire. All the work that you do, how empathetic you are, you know, we talked about empathy really lacking. And so when you find people like that, it's so nice to keep them in your orbit. And so you've graced us with your presence today. I think that the listeners are really going to love this. So will you please take us home? Absolutely. That's a burrito or that's a purrito. Hey, mira. If this episode made you feel some kind of way, dígame, DM me on Instagram. If you want to be a guest to put your story out there too, check out the guest form on my website at pauletterato. com slash guest. Yep, just my name, pauletterato. com slash guest. Y no se te olvide que hay más perks when you join the newsletter. Todos estos links están en los show notes. Muchísimas gracias for your support. Y hasta la próxima vez, cuídate bien.