Who says business success can't be an all-inclusive affair?
Join me and my guest, Erica Courdae, a seasoned DEI coach, consultant, and beauty industry veteran, as we take on the challenge of transforming established business models.
In this episode, we will discuss traditional ideologies and reimagine a more inclusive and equitable path to success.
Our episode will navigate the uncharted territories of alternative business models and how they foster equitable outcomes. We'll dissect the role of capital and how a shift in decision-making processes can prevent harm. We'll also wrestle with the complex task of integrating diversity and inclusivity concepts into the business world. Erica's unique insights as a social entrepreneur will shed light on these topics and challenge existing paradigms.
I hope you enjoy our episode!
Connect with Erica here.
If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart, and you’d like to connect with me, here are a few ways you can do that.
One is my newsletter, it’s where I put most of my time and energy when I’m not working with clients or on this podcast. Sorry social media! It’s a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and of course updates on what’s happening with the podcast. Whenever something is going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have for you is my Guide to Doing Work Differently. The guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place to start.
Last, if you’ve got a burning question, a comment, or a situation you’d like my eyes on, you can email me at candice@fortressandflourish.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out, and if you’re feeling generous, leave a review. Reviews help other like-minded folks find their way to this resource.
Learn more about Candice and her work here.
Who says business success can't be an all-inclusive affair?
Join me and my guest, Erica Courdae, a seasoned DEI coach, consultant, and beauty industry veteran, as we take on the challenge of transforming established business models.
In this episode, we will discuss traditional ideologies and reimagine a more inclusive and equitable path to success.
Our episode will navigate the uncharted territories of alternative business models and how they foster equitable outcomes. We'll dissect the role of capital and how a shift in decision-making processes can prevent harm. We'll also wrestle with the complex task of integrating diversity and inclusivity concepts into the business world. Erica's unique insights as a social entrepreneur will shed light on these topics and challenge existing paradigms.
I hope you enjoy our episode!
Connect with Erica here.
If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart, and you’d like to connect with me, here are a few ways you can do that.
One is my newsletter, it’s where I put most of my time and energy when I’m not working with clients or on this podcast. Sorry social media! It’s a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and of course updates on what’s happening with the podcast. Whenever something is going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.
Another resource that I have for you is my Guide to Doing Work Differently. The guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place to start.
Last, if you’ve got a burning question, a comment, or a situation you’d like my eyes on, you can email me at candice@fortressandflourish.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out, and if you’re feeling generous, leave a review. Reviews help other like-minded folks find their way to this resource.
Learn more about Candice and her work here.
The hearth is for you if you're a business leader with a team. Here we have conversations about how to keep growing. When you feel you've reached your capacity, when what you're doing is working but you're starting to see the cracks, when there's a gap between where you're at now and where you want to be, here we find ways to transition through the struggle of survival toward creating a thriving business that supports you and your team as whole humans. Your host is me, Candice Elliott. I'm a business strategist and mentor who specializes in working with business owners who are going through periods of growth. Especially when you're adding more people to your team, the practices and systems that worked when your team was smaller just don't seem to fit anymore, and when you're caught in stress and reaction, it's tough to reimagine the way that you created your world of work, Both your own personal one and the one that you created for others. I help people align their values and business practices to build practical, sustainable, thriving work ecosystems and no, this isn't just some work utopia talk. To do this, I bring forward my decade-long professional background in human resources and organizational development, working with growing businesses across many sectors, and my decades-long search for meaning and wholeness, which includes researching the history of work and how it came to be what it is today, practicing a trauma-informed approach to business and integrating work, life and spirituality into a meaningful whole. Let's take this journey together. Welcome back to the hearth, brave souls.
Speaker 1:Today, Erica Corday is joining me for a conversation. Erica is a DEI coach and consultant, a 20-year veteran of the beauty industry and a salon owner. These experiences opened her eyes to the power that we have as business owners to lead the revolution in a way that larger, top-heavy corporations just don't. She's also co-host of the Pause on the Plague podcast with India Jackson, where they have real conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion, bridging the gap between ethics, values, diversity and visibility. I hope you enjoy our conversation, Erica. Thank you so much for joining me today on the hearth. I'm so excited that you're here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I love a good conversation, so I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:Yes, awesome. We're going to be talking about how to redefine what success looks like in business to be inclusive of all people. But before we get into that juicy conversation, I would just love to know all of the things that you do. I came into relationship with you through your podcast, but I know there's a lot more than that. Tell our listeners.
Speaker 2:We will do. I will say that a term that I have found is a little more all-encompassing but is very accurate is a social entrepreneur. I am someone that does have multiple businesses, which is Erica Corday. That is the brand that I named after myself. That was what started some of my coaching and consulting that I do with individuals and brands, kind of joining that with my business partner, indie Jackson and her branding and visibility work. That was how we created Pause on the Play, which Pause on the Play is a consultancy, a community and a podcast. That is where we are taking people from being implicit about their values to being more explicit in how they can support any of your diversity, equity, inclusion, visibility or just efforts when it comes to being a human, not just in business. Outside of that, I am my parent of two awesome kids. I am a writer, again, podcaster, public speaker. I like to be able to be in conversation. It's always the happy place in the magical space for me. How did you?
Speaker 1:come upon the social entrepreneur title. What does that mean to you? What does it bring up?
Speaker 2:Interestingly enough, it was something that was actually brought up to me by Indie. She was like this is actually what you're doing. I was like, oh, am I doing that? It took a while for it to kind of stick because there was just this like can I claim this? To acknowledge that for me it really is being in a place to where it's about.
Speaker 2:What are the outcomes that can be created? What are the relationships that I like to foster and facilitate, the people that I want to amplify, to be able to create outcomes for them as well as the people that they support how that's a part of supporting legacy creation. For many of us, that legacy was not something that we always had access to, but don't even fully have access to it now. Yet being able to figure out how we can do things differently than what we were given, that's so much of an important piece. It's just been very fulfilling to figure out how it is that I can take the access and social capital that I have and continue to intersect that with others, and how we can utilize that as a tool for the dismantling of what we don't want to thrive, as well in the amplification of what we do want to thrive better.
Speaker 1:How does this work toward diversity and inclusion? What are the challenges that you see in how that intersects with the business world?
Speaker 2:The interesting part is, I think, when we think about business, business is something that was not created with equity in mind. It was created to foster wealth or funds or access or some type of item for an individual or an entity that wanted it, regardless of how it was done. I think when we are reconsidering how business can be done, how it's currently being done, we are exploring, being a part of actively doing it differently how it is that we are instilling different types of normals in the business space. I think that that's a huge part of it, because if you think about the Industrial Revolution, it wasn't about kindler-gently. It was like work harder, do more, I need more, I don't care how it impacts you. That's without even considering the fact that any type of enslavement that black people received clearly it was about forced labor and outcomes that were never to our benefit.
Speaker 2:I think being able to take an entity ie work that was not created to be equitable and to translate it into business and really being able to figure out what's possible, knowing that you've not seen an example of that yet and that you're a part of actually creating that, it's really just being like, okay, well, if this doesn't feel good and this is not supportive of people as individuals. This does not allow them to have their humanity be a part of this. Well, this doesn't work. What else can we do? So we really have to be iterative. This is what I know, this is what I don't want to contribute to, and I want to explore what else can happen. That's really where we're trying to get to, and it requires patience, it requires diligence, it requires the willingness to forge a path that has not been tried.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like a paradox to think about. So how do you be anti-racist, anti-colonialist, anti-capitalist within a business?
Speaker 2:Right? Well, and I think part of it is that none of the structures are helpful as we know them to be. And is it possible to figure out how capital as an entity can become a tool, which is what it really just needs to be? It's like capital ie, money, time, energy, a resource, an item. How can it go back to simply being I have something, you have something? How are we trading these two types of capital to both get something that we want and or need, and not having it be about a system which is capitalism?
Speaker 2:When we are thinking about what this system has done and, honestly, how it's been vilified, is there a possibility to take this system and it not be what it is? Possibly, probably not in its current iteration. It needs to go but the entire process of how do you take something and trade it for something else and it not be rooted in harm that's really what we're trying to figure out. Now. Everybody's not trying to figure that out. Some people are just like I don't care about that part, I am just trying to get what I want.
Speaker 1:This is too much. I can't even think about this.
Speaker 2:I get sometimes from people Well, especially business owners that are like it's not possible to do it outside of that. And just because it has not been done up to this point doesn't mean it's not possible, because clearly it was happening before it was created. It's just whether or not you feel as though you wanted another outcome that required it to exist. And if that outcome comes at the expense of somebody, then it's no, that's not what we're doing, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it needs to be mutually beneficial for all the parties, all the people that are involved in it, and if it's not, then it's increasing harm, and that's I mean, at least in my business. That's not how I want to function. I don't want a world that looks like that. I want a world that looks like it's supporting me but it's equally supporting people that I'm working with and it's supporting my community, and I think that I get pushback sometimes from that, that it sounds like it's utopian or that you know, like what kind of a world are you living in where that could even be possible?
Speaker 2:And yes, but then it makes me think what is it about the possibility of something like that that feels more scary than what we're currently in? That's a good point. What is it about what we're doing that feels like the preference over something else? Like, why is this so great in a way that you think that you know who it is that has to pay the price that that sacrifice is worth not going to an alternative? Now, I think with anything, any choice, you're going to have to be like well, if I chose this, then I'm actively not choosing something else. But if the choice comes at the expense of safety life and limb, mental safety, like well being the lack of being able to thrive in any way, shape or form, that's too high of a price. Yeah, like, that's not just like, oh, red over blue, yeah.
Speaker 1:And for a business owner, I think a lot of the decision making is I have to do this in order for me to survive, or this company to survive, or us to keep going, and so they disassociate the harm that's being caused. For people Like I think in the space that I work in, compensation is an easy one to look at, right, because there's numbers that say how much someone needs to make in order to be able to live where they work, and so for a business owner to decide to not pay someone that amount of money is actively choosing to pay them not enough to be able to afford their expenses.
Speaker 2:Correct. That's also built in. Zero sum is only enough for XYZ to happen. Everything else too bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then the question is how do you redesign the business? What are the things that you stop doing or start doing in order to be able to make that change toward the values that are going to bring us into the next phase of what successful business can look like?
Speaker 2:Well, the interesting piece about it is that I think it requires for people to be honest about what their values are and what the outcomes are that they hope are possible and achievable with these values, as opposed to well, I don't really want that, but if I say that, then I'm going to be canceled and you're going to get rid of me and I can't exist. So I'm going to lie and I'm going to falsify why I really care, because I think at that point people are in a position of I'm going to say whatever it is that keeps me being able to receive what it is that I want and what I need, even if that means to continue doing the same thing that I've been doing. But I am going to put out a facade that I give a crap and I really don't.
Speaker 1:This came up locally to where I live in Santa Cruz. The university came up with a land acknowledgement and the Amamudan tribal band is representative of the indigenous peoples who lived here. But the Owaswas peoples, who actually lived in Santa Cruz, are no longer alive anymore because of the practices and colonization that happened here. So it feels one of the things that George Lopez, who is heading up the tribal band, says is that for a land acknowledgement to not be lip service like that, that it isn't something that you just read at the beginning of a meeting to get it out of the way. It's really something that should be meaningful, and it's not meaningful if it is just words on a page or just spoken and not integrated into the conversation and how the decision making is happening.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that that goes into all of the aspects of DEI work as a whole and the outcomes that we hope for, because of the fact that if it is simply, oh, let's say that this initiative is what's happening, but let's not actually take any efforts and take tangible actions to make that happen you just said something nice and, honestly, those words aren't very nice when you are being honest about the fact that they're actually creating harm.
Speaker 2:So this entire just concept of let's say that this is what we want, but let's not actually be willing to put actions and policies and accountability measures in place, committing to the fact that we're going to screw it up and being willing to figure out, ok, but how do we continue to iterate as we figure it out?
Speaker 2:Because the expectation of perfection stops anything from actually being done. It stops things from actually happening, because it's simply, I want to seem as though I'm doing something that I'm not really doing and, regardless of what I am or am not doing, I need to seem as though I am doing it perfectly. Perfection is not showing up here, then why am I doing any of it? Which perfection is literally a trait of white supremacy, and it also puts you in a position of it's more worried about you being perfect, the individual, and somehow, if you're not, that gives you the excuse to continue to sacrifice those that have to pay the price for your commitment to ignorance and false truth hoods about what's really happening. You are more committed to not messing up and leaving things exactly how they are harmful than you are figuring out what else is possible.
Speaker 1:I think also that just not seeing that the harm is there too is such a I mean, it's like there's this perfectionism keeping people from even trying anything, and then there's also just not even wanting to see what harm there is, or not even believing that harm exists because it's so much to get into. But it's the responsibility, I think, of leaders, and especially white leaders, to get into that, to know what the real history is and what the real consequences are of the decisions that are being made.
Speaker 2:And there has to be a willingness to be committed to learning and unlearning, and there has to be a commitment to understanding that it's not zero sum, so it's not like, oh, there's eight pieces, if I give up four, then I now don't have enough. And at the same time, because there is duality that has to exist, there is also a certain amount of privilege and platform that you do have to give up when you have too much. And that doesn't necessarily mean, from a finite perspective, that now you no longer have enough. It means that you actually had a hyperabundance that you didn't.
Speaker 2:It came at the cost of someone else going without, and it wasn't just oh, they don't have visibility, or they don't have the same access to money, that is all that's true. And they don't have access to safe schools, they don't have access to healthy foods, they don't have access to housing and jobs and relationships in the same way, because of the lack that is given to them, maybe by existing in the bodies and the skin that they're in, and so when you are honest about that, it's like well, this really was never mine to begin with. It was ill-gotten.
Speaker 1:And there's this blame that is projected of there's laziness or alcohol or drug abuse or there's a moral people go to prison and these things and it's like all of that is converted into this blame that is totally, completely unjustified and a product of the systems that have been created that part and that's where, for me, I'm just like.
Speaker 2:So, if you did not have opportunity, you did not have money, you were living somewhere that was unsafe and I blamed you for possibly going to drugs or possibly going down a quote unquote illegal avenue when all of the legal ones didn't work.
Speaker 2:That's a setup, Totally On top of the fact that there are plenty of people that have the access, and when they go the illegal route or they choose to indulge, or over-indulge rather, in something like drugs or alcohol, there is this place of wanting to acknowledge oh, this is so sad, they were so much potential. Do you find that same potential in those that have been demonized? No, and so there's this place of you can find redemption and hope in those that you believe it exists for, but everyone else that you've already stolen it from, of course, they don't have it, but it's not because these people are inherently any of the things that you want to say that they are, and I see people, because this is for any group of people that happens to be the target at that moment Black people, brown people, indigenous people, lgbtqa plus people, fat bodies, queer bodies, women, like any of the above and any of the intersectionality. It is because somebody decided you weren't good enough. You're not worthy of redemption and safety.
Speaker 1:Be damned I'm curious to shift modes a little bit and talk about your work in DEI with different organizations that you've done this work with. What are some of the outcomes that you have worked towards?
Speaker 2:Some of them can be putting awards programs in place so that you can swap out the old systems of scholarships, which essentially are you receive something because you don't have enough money. You receive something because you're poor. Awards are I want to give you something because I think that this can be of benefit to you. I want to give you something because I know that you don't have equal access. I want to make sure that you can receive something because of the communities that you can then benefit. Once you receive this, that can put things in a position to where we can use a mental health example of possibly like a coaching program, a somatics practices, a community or program when they are able to provide these awards to people that regularly are not centered in healing spaces, then you are facilitating the possibility of extending how healing can show up for communities that do not have equal access to it. Some of the other things that can happen is supporting people and reevaluating what their hiring practices are all the way from the inception of what are your values and how does that show up in your job announcement? Who is it that you want to hire? What is the process that you actually bring them through? How do culture. Fit interviews play into this, which is how it is that you can make sure that they are fit for your culture and that they are clear what your culture is, that they're actually coming into, how it is that they're onboarded, how it is that they're able to let you know whether or not this is actually a good fit and where there's opportunities for growth, what their benefits package is. All of these types of things show up when you identify what your values are and then you go in to actually evaluate your process of not only the hiring but retention, to kind of see what's going to happen.
Speaker 2:There's also how it is that you are centering people with your podcast, how it is that you are identifying guests, how it is that you are making sure that you are amplifying the people that you actually want to center and not just the people that you already know exist, acknowledging the fact that a large part of that is also the creating and fostering of relationships, especially with people that you may not already know but that are actually experts in what they do.
Speaker 2:I always struggle with the word expert, but I say it because it's well understood what I mean when I say it but someone that is very good at what they do, they're very knowledgeable, they're insightful and they are a part of creating outcomes and change and so figuring out what it is to actually create and to maintain and to foster these relationships and to amplify people that may actually be better than the people that are regularly centered in their given areas, but they just might not be the ones that everyone knows their names. Because if you think about music as the example, just because somebody is popular doesn't mean that they're the best performer or they're the best singer or they're the most talented. So it's acknowledging that just because you're known doesn't mean that there's not someone else who actually might be really great at this. They just don't have the same level of visibility In the award shift from scholarship to award.
Speaker 1:What are the impacts that you saw from that change when it happened?
Speaker 2:Part of it is that it can actually be put in place to center communities that aren't regularly centered. So it could be that this is specifically to highlight communities of color or queer people, so basically saying queer folks that aren't regularly given access or don't regularly show up as facilitators in this space and we want to shift those numbers in those demographics. It can again help to really facilitate an expansion in who is able to receive services and or, in this case, healing from people that actually represent them and understand what their specific or unique challenges are. Because if you are someone that doesn't regularly see yourself represented, it can be challenging sometimes to feel like, well, I definitely don't want to tell my struggles to someone that doesn't represent me, you're not going to understand me and you're going to always want me to go through your lens and that's not going to be helpful. So really focusing on the people that can bring this back to the communities that they're a part of and that they serve, that's an act of equity.
Speaker 1:In the hiring space. It's so interesting I hear from business owners all the time, primarily white business owners. Our county has a segregation of primarily Hispanic people who live in the south of the county and primarily white people who live in the north part of the county, and business owners all the time are like I can't get applicants who are people of color. I don't understand why this is happening. What you were saying about starting with values and really living those out. I think it really gets out why that is happening. Because if the job ad is described one way and it's only posted in certain ways and it's not, then it selects for a certain group and it's inherently unfair in the way it's happening.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because one part of it is if you keep advertising in the same places, you're going to continue to get more of the same. If you keep going to the same business colleagues and or groups saying, hey, do you know of anyone or can you share this Again, you're going to continue to get more of the same. If people are aware whether it's because of the way that you show up or because of people that have possibly worked for or with you being transparent that this is not safe, then people are not going to choose to apply with you because you can go and decide I'm gonna go and I'm gonna put myself in a place that I know that these demographics that I want more of, they will now be able to see this job posting and they will want to work for me. If it's not safe, they won't, because it's not just as simple as I'm gonna present it and you're gonna say yes, and it's the same with the business.
Speaker 2:Owners will sometimes run into this hurdle of oh, I don't have enough black or brown people in my programs because they can't afford me. No, they don't wanna give you their money because you are now perpetrating the stereotype that black and brown people don't have money, some people don't have money. Some people choose to not spend their money in the way that you want them to spend it, and so when this lie comes up that it is about race or gender or ethnicity or any other demographic or societal indicator, that that's why it's not happening that is about putting the onus outside of yourself and not taking the accountability as to why people cannot work with you because they can't be adequately and safely serviced, or why they are simply choosing to say no because they don't want to support what it is that you are in support of.
Speaker 1:I was in a conversation recently with an executive director who has a very diverse group of people that work in the organization and she was just explaining to me how she spends a lot of time in relationship with all these people who work for her and that creating a safe space for everyone is essential to the work that they're doing. And it was in such stark contrast to this other group that I worked with around a similar time that just they were trying to identify some objectives over the course of the next year and it was a very profit, first focused conversation that didn't have anything to do with relationship building or inclusion or anything like that. I'm interested to know, in working with a group that's like further from the values of diversity, equity and inclusion, what are some ways to bring them along?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I don't bring anyone along that doesn't want to come for the right, because I think that there is a place of people that are aware of what they I don't know, what I don't know, and I wanna change that and I'm open to that and I wanna be an active participant in this process. And then there's people that are like, well, I don't even really think it's a problem, I don't know what the issue is, I don't really understand it and I don't know how this affects me. I have spent more time than I feel good about working with or trying to convince people in some way, shape or form that it is worthwhile to prioritize the safety, well-being and health of people, and if you don't inherently understand what it is that will undermine that and will simply prioritize your own comfort over wanting to unlearn what you were programmed with, I have no interest in fighting that fight because there's too many other places that I would like to put my energy that do not keep me fighting in a way that is likely going to be unwinnable. How?
Speaker 1:did you get to that place of deciding to not fight that fight anymore?
Speaker 2:Very hard one. It's very hard one, I mean. I think it took. I mean and I wanna acknowledge that I think that there's always going to be times, personally or professionally, that I am going to have to confront that In large and small ways, because just when you think like, oh, I'm not gonna deal with certain things, and it just comes up in different clothing or it shows up in different types of ways it's no different than if you have an unsuccessful relationship friendship or intimate or otherwise and you're like, oh, I'm not gonna do that again, and then it just comes back in different clothes. You're like, oh well, that happened again. That was a different layer of it, but this seems awfully familiar all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:So I think that it was just really having to recognize where any of the change that I wanted to contribute was not going to be achieved. If I was willing to continuously run into the brick wall with people that wanted to continuously shield themselves behind it, I can't reach those that don't want to be reached, and so if you want to be a part of the change, then we are going to partner together and co-create what's possible, but if at any point, you don't want to, or it's easier to sacrifice me for your own comfort, then this is no longer conducive. This is no longer a partnership, and that doesn't mean that it's gonna always be easy. It doesn't mean it's gonna always be hard, but it is something that does take effort and it takes conscious consideration of more than just your own delicate sensibilities in the moment.
Speaker 2:I get the question a lot from people who've never worked with me before who want help doing either a layoff or a termination, and I've come it's like, okay, you come to me when I have to let, you have to let people go, but you didn't come to me to figure out how to retain and to make it better. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm really now selective of if I even do that or not anymore, because it's not the most constructive use of my skill set. It's something I can do I can do a layoff where no one will qualify for unemployment insurance but that's not how I want to use my skills and my abilities in the world.
Speaker 2:And that's the thing. You hit this point of like. I don't want you to use this skill set to hide the quote unquote bad behavior. I don't want you to pull me in when you want to protect your image and that's where, for me, I really prefer maintenance or prevention, because I feel like in that place that doesn't mean that it's going to be perfect, it doesn't mean that things won't happen, but it does mean that you are putting actions and structures in place to hopefully have a better outcome. But the I'm going to kind of call you in when I need to let people go can really just acknowledge that like well, now I am doing this because I'm trying to protect me when I wasn't doing what I could have to have protected you a long time ago. And the reality is is that there's no way to even know whether or not that's 100% accurate or not, but it absolutely sends the message that that's what's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, if this nonprofit that they don't pay their people over time, they don't pay them for travel that they're supposed to get, they don't have, you know, paid time off or you know any of these pretty like Pretty, I'm gonna say basic like safety net pieces, and I really see businesses as an opportunity to Be able to insulate people from the intense forces of the market that affect people's lives and to be able to create a more safe environment. But they're all out in the community talking about how they support you know this group and they work with these people and they're and it's it's just so hard to be so intimately familiar with how the image looks and how the people are being treated.
Speaker 2:That part, and I think it's very challenging when you are doing any aspect of this work To have to acknowledge that at least once in your career you have been touted out as the Example or the token person, because someone wants a pass, someone wants to be like see, I'm doing the right things, I'm a good one. And it's very troubling when you're in that position and I think that Someone wanting that proximity to save them really just proves how much work really needs to be done here.
Speaker 1:Is there anything that you have going on right now in your business that you want to share about?
Speaker 2:one of the things that we have ongoing that I love and I always feel like it's such a great foundation for everything that we talked about and more is From implicit to explicit, and it's a framework that India and I take people through that really allows them to, as a team, identify what are our values, what are our wills and won'ts, do's and don'ts, and how it is that this can support us, fostering and and really amplifying. You know inclusion and equity and diversity, not just as pretty words but as actionable procedures, and you know things that are put in place so that this is what we can do. This is how we can measure it, but also just understanding like this is a growth process. But if you don't know what your values are, it's really challenging to know why you're doing anything and how it is that you can Figure out what's next, what you can do differently, what it is that you can unlearn. That isn't of support to what you want to amplify, and so I think being able to really focus on Having this three-hour timeframe with us as a team to one have the beautiful side effect of team building being there, but also to not only create boundaries just as a leader, but to know that your team can be a part of it and that all of you can contribute to this. It just it has such beautiful outcomes and every single time that we've done it, people are like I had no idea that this was going to feel like this. This has just uncovered so much and this is going to really set us up for success going forward, because now you have your filter for everything else that you're gonna do.
Speaker 2:Who do you want to work with? Why do you want to work with them? Who do you want to partner with as a service provider? Who is it that you want to work with? If you were trying to build a Retreat, how is it that you want to vote with your dollars?
Speaker 2:You are now creating Filters so that all of your decisions can go through them and you can clearly be able to tell well, this goes against our value, so we're not going to do this. Or, if it does go against our values, but we know exactly why. So like, if my value is to be in spaces that Support and amplify women of color and I go into an all-white space, it might be because I'm going to disrupt the fact that there's not enough people of color, and I'm actually bringing attention to that. But that's still in support of my values and I'm clear as to why I am doing it. But without those values, you don't know why, and this is where we're guessing and this is where and things go wrong.
Speaker 2:You don't always know what went wrong. To even be able to just figure out this didn't have the outcome that we wanted. Now let's try to work on it. Without it, sometimes you can really be stuck in in the mode of trauma and being reactionary. So creating that filter for yourself makes a huge difference and it can really promote you being able to design what is going to create the outcomes for you, those that you want to be in support of, and and again, trying to create that thing that has not yet been created, that so many of us are trying to figure out as we're doing it.
Speaker 1:It makes me think of Businesses I've worked with where it's like decisions are being made and you know they're going through certain vendors, or you know they have goals of things that they're working towards, but it's not tied to a mission or a value, or or a set of values, or and so it. There's not clarity about what's going on and it's really confusing for people and for even the leaders of the organization.
Speaker 2:I think to kind of wade through that and so yeah, and so I think when you have these values, that can, number one, be created collectively and then they can be shared and understood. I think that that's very different than everybody being on a completely different page Maybe not even in the same book, trying to figure out why you can't move forward.
Speaker 1:What is the size of team that you work with? With that Is it? You know?
Speaker 2:so when we do that, that that Container is for up to eight people, so let's say it's the leader and up to seven people, and that is so that there's enough space to be able to really have that conversation. That's a part of it, as you're Identifying the goals, as we're distilling everything down, and you're really getting this kind of funneling in Of who everybody is bringing of their own humanity and how this creates these collective values for the brand. So it's something that, again, it really is a great team building opportunity, and we had a podcast Earlier this year that we had Parker from Evolve Finance on and he really talked about how this was something that also Really supported leadership, expansion and support with them. So it's something that people don't often think about values being something that's as connected to leadership in this same type of way, but it's also acknowledging that leadership is not about being the leader, it's about leading, and this is something that is done collectively.
Speaker 2:This is something that is really Intersectional and it requires into dependence of I'm dependent on you, you're dependent on me, because we're all doing this together and so really understanding how leadership is a you know, again, a beautiful Side effect that can show up from this like. There's just so many benefits that really having that clarity Of your values. It changes everything and it means that you took a moment out of just Running the business and being in it to pause and really focus on what it is that helps and what it is that everybody needs to be clear in a bigger like a company with more than eight people, how do you guys decide who is in that room?
Speaker 2:I think what can happen at that point is it's having that discussion on you know who's a part of the decision-making processes and what can happen With this information.
Speaker 2:Beyond this, I think it's really being able to decide how it is that you can gather information collectively and what are the structures that are in place to make sure that Everybody that's a part of this entity can be a part of the outcomes. Because, essentially, what happens is is, I think, any, any business or brand wants to be able to Get to a place that they have grown in a way that feels good for them, and if you grow in a way that your people now feel as though they are not a part of the Decision-making process and the outcomes and that they cannot let you know, it doesn't work. You're going to encounter some challenges. So, if nothing else, this really puts you in a place of having to acknowledge what is it that needs to be examined With the way that we are allowing our people to be a part of the decision-making Processes here and how they can communicate with us, and what might need to change and then the iterative Process of this.
Speaker 1:Is this the kind of thing where you come back to the group and reevaluate the values or Continue to work in different ways, or how does that part happen?
Speaker 2:I think you always. I think values always evolve, they always grow. So like, let's say, for example, you know a lot of people love to have things Like it's January, let's start something new. And so if you do that, you know If, if at no point during the year, let's say, you know six months in, by, you know, by annually, you kind of pause and it's like okay, let's evaluate our values. Do these still work as they are? How have we been been utilizing them? How have they supported the outcomes that we're working toward? How have they not? How can they work better?
Speaker 2:So, really being able to Acknowledge what, what is working and what can work better, and being able to really check in with okay, does anything need to shift here? Is it the way that we are executing these and putting them into play that needs to shift? But you know it may not be like a full redo at that point, but there may be some small shifts that really can help to allow them to be more inherent and and more iterative, to give you that space to be like let's figure out what works, as opposed to something that feels restrictive. But you do want to go in at least once a year. I tend to think, you know, twice a year is a little better, like again, kind of in that middle and Something at the end, because sometimes if you've gone a whole year, there could have been some lost opportunities and you may have been able to catch it before. Maybe you know, you got some larger things put in place and it's like okay, now we need to change a little bit more than what maybe it would have been had we checked in on it six months ago. So I think being able to really kind of keep your finger on the pulse of that helps you to be able to figure out again what's working, what can work better, what are the opportunities here, what challenges are presenting themselves, how does this, how does this show up for us, how does this show up for our people? And being able to allow them to share that, because I think so often what can happen is the business gets large to the point that it's like I'm gonna tell you what the challenges are. You can't tell me what the challenges are if you're not me. So it's really important to figure out how is it that you are having that type of communication and how is it that you can then keep that in mind With what's being created, because if you have, you know, 200 people, clearly you can't have 200 people on a call.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of a call, but I do think that there is a place to be able to allow you know those people that are not a part of that process to be able to give you information that is going to be included, and then you can be able to get more of that feedback from those that do want to Share their feedback on it and those they feel safe enough to, because, again, some people don't always feel that way and Think that's a whole another opportunity of getting people don't feel safe. Then how can we address that too? So this is where I think that it Exactly so there's a lot of like how can certain things be done anonymously? But even then, you know, if you have an organization that does not allow people to be honest and still feel protected, that's another challenge, and so part of what's happening here is, yes, there's the values and you want to know that, and again, this is where the more of these things that are uncovered.
Speaker 2:Some people can be like, oh my gosh, now I know all these things are wrong. Well, they were still wrong. You just didn't know them before. Now you know, and they don't have to stay that way and you can work with it and not wrong, in a sense of like oh they're bad, but and they don't work, they're not working and so if you were figuring the right, people are leaving right people are, and yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, as you figure out what doesn't work, that's an opportunity. You have a chance to figure out what else can be done differently, what else is possible, and so if you can be open to that, there's a lot of possibility there. But you have to be open to first being able to figure out what doesn't work in the best ways possible for the people that are impacted most by it.
Speaker 1:It makes me think about like traditional management stuff includes like performance reviews, right, and there's this like hierarchical okay, we create the goals and then we tie the goals to the position and then we check in to like make sure that the person is going towards the goals and then we tell them what they're doing wrong and what they have to fix, but there's not really the feedback up the other way. That's, like you know, comes from a person feeling safe, because the way that that is structured is not going to make a person. I've never felt comfortable in any performance review that I ever was on the receiving end of.
Speaker 2:No, because you feel like this is me trying to decide whether or not I could get to keep my job, let alone get actually compensated more, based on metrics that you set for me, and this is one sided, because I'm not actually able to evaluate whether or not this works for me and whether or not I feel as though anything that I am a part of I can actually be a part of creating it. It's just here come do the job, and if you don't do the job, well then it's wrong, it's like no.
Speaker 1:And even going into the meeting. It's an activating thing. It's like your heart's racing Very much. You're not able to think and have a good, robust, like conversation because you're in this fight or protecting kind of a mode, and that's the whole thing.
Speaker 2:It does not acknowledge the equitable piece of how there are certain people that are going to automatically go into fight flight freezer fawn because of previous opportunities or because of the way that the world is going to perceive the way that they show up as a black woman, I cannot say anything that someone would perceive me as angry in a situation that I am worried about maintaining my employment if I know that this is what's going to come up and so it's like okay, I now have to be agreeable. I have to watch my tone. I have to watch my word choices. I have to watch my facial expressions, my everything. I have to alter my entire way of being in order to be more palatable for someone else to feel safe with me, when I am the one that is clearly unsafe and the workplace.
Speaker 1:I feel just really is the fawning piece is like praised in the workplace, right? Yes, you know, if you're telling someone how wonderful they are in order to get them to do something or whatever, like that is just the way it works. But if you're frustrated or angry, or anxious or worried, I mean maybe anxious, worried is a little more palatable. But I mean, yeah, it's just. I mean, especially when people are being perceived as angry in the workplace, especially if it's something that is, you know, rightfully, they're angry about, it's like the immediate reaction from the leadership is to punish that. And it's not. It's just an expression of what's happening, like it's bringing up an issue that needs to be resolved.
Speaker 2:It's just coming up in a different way than the fawning way of doing it, which is and all of it requires people to not be able to be honest and truthful with themselves or those that they're supposedly supposed to be in conversation with, when clearly this is not a conversation, because I can't safely be open and honest.
Speaker 1:Right. It separates what's really going on from the way that we're expressing what's going on, and so we can't actually get at the issues and resolve them and move forward because we're stuck in the response.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Again, I have to prioritize my own safety because, if you're honest with me, I'm going to feel unsafe. What did I do wrong?
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for coming on. So my pleasure, thank you, thank you. Thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm sure there's something else that's coming up for you that we didn't get to chat about. I mean, we could have conversations for hours.
Speaker 2:I want people to take this as an opportunity to consider what we shared, to break it down into small, digestible pieces and to kind of tease out what supports them with where they are at that moment and to know that they can come back and revisit this as just kind of prompts to really think about okay, how am I feeling, how was this going, how was this feeling? And knowing that how you think and how you feel and how you take action is something that doesn't have to be static. It can be where you are now and there's always space to reconsider and adjust and reconsider what it is that is your normal at any given moment. There's always space.
Speaker 1:And how can people get in contact with you if they want to reach out?
Speaker 2:You can come on over to pauseontheplaycom and there you'll be able to learn about the podcast You'll be able to learn about from implicit to explicit, if you and your team would like to take that with us and be able to begin to dig into your values. And we also have an interactive contact form there so you can also reach out and let us know if there are some other ways that you would like to support us or you just want to give us feedback. And the beauty of that form is that we created it with accessibility in mind, so you can leave voice messages, you can leave video messages or you can type them out if that's what feels good to you.
Speaker 1:I really, really recommend checking out the pause on the play podcast. I can't tell you how much I have learned and grown from that information and I just recommend it highly to anyone who's listening right now. If this conversation interested you, go there.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, you're welcome, Erica.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Candice.
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Speaker 1:Another resource that I have for you is my guide to doing work differently. This guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place if you're looking for somewhere to get started. Last, if you've got a burning question, a comment or a situation you'd like my eyes on, you can email me. All those links are in the show notes. Take care, brave soul, catch you next time.