CLAIRE HOLMES on Parental Leave Transitions for Employers and Employees

You know the saying, "It takes a village to raise a child," but what happens when that village is also juggling a career? 

Join me in a deep-dive conversation with Claire Holmes, founder of Mama Collaborative. Claire's journey from corporate consultant to entrepreneurial advocate for working moms is nothing short of inspiring. We learn about her own struggle to balance her career with motherhood and how this led her to create a platform to support and guide other working moms through the complex transition of maternity leave.

In this episode, we explore the present state of parental leave policies and the steps that can be taken to make these more supportive and sustainable. We discuss how employers can nurture a healthier work environment, prevent resentment, and help parents smoothly transition back to work. We also delve into the hard-hitting realities of motherhood and its reverberating effects on women's careers.

Claire also gives us a look into the services offered by Mama Collaborative. From one-on-one coaching to online courses, each resource is tailored to empower new moms in their journey back to the workplace. We discuss the importance of intentional planning and staying connected with other parents during this crucial phase. You'll gain practical insights and tangible advice whether you're a working parent on the brink of transition or an employer seeking ways to better support your employees. 

I hope you enjoy our conversation.

-  Candice

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

The hearth is for you if you're a business leader with a team. Here we have conversations about how to keep growing. When you feel you've reached your capacity, when what you're doing is working but you're starting to see the cracks, when there's a gap between where you're at now and where you want to be, here we find ways to transition through the struggle of survival toward creating a thriving business that supports you and your team as whole humans. Your host is me, candice Elliott. I'm a business strategist and mentor who specializes in working with business owners who are going through periods of growth. Especially when you're adding more people to your team, the practices and systems that worked when your team was smaller just don't seem to fit anymore, and when you're caught in stress and reaction, it's tough to reimagine the way that you created your world of work, both your own personal one and the one that you created for others. I help people align their values and business practices to build practical, sustainable, thriving work ecosystems and no, this isn't just some work utopia talk. To do this, I bring forward my decade-long professional background in human resources and organizational development, working with growing businesses across many sectors, and my decades-long search for meaning and wholeness, which includes researching the history of work and how it came to be what it is today, practicing a trauma-informed approach to business and integrating work, life and spirituality into a meaningful whole. Let's take this journey together. Welcome to the hearth Brave Soul.

Speaker 1: 2:27

I'm excited that Claire Holmes, the owner of Mama Collaborative, is joining me today for a conversation about parental leave. Claire is a proud mom of three boys, the CEO of her household and also has a professional career. Each of these roles is a full-time job in itself and, just like for a lot of working moms, there just don't seem to be enough hours in the day. I can definitely. That resonates with me for sure, and Claire created her business, mama Collaborative, dedicated to helping working moms set themselves up for success in personal and in their professional lives. So I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Speaker 1: 3:20

I'm so excited to be welcoming Claire Holmes onto the show today. Claire and I have been working together for a couple of months now on my own maternity leave and I have just felt this sense of relief around it. I have had a mental block around even starting to think about how to do a maternity leave. We're recording this in springtime, before my son is born, and it's just been such a joy to work with her and I knew that when I was doing this season on redefining work that I really wanted to have a conversation with her about parental leave. So welcome to the show, claire.

Speaker 2: 4:05

Thank you so much for having me. I love that we have this to connect about, in addition to working together on your own maternity leave process, me too, me too.

Speaker 1: 4:16

So can you tell our listeners a bit about your background and how you came to be doing the work that you do today?

Speaker 2: 4:23

Yes, absolutely so. I am a maternity leave coach and the founder of Mama Collaborative, which aims to support working moms kind of through all the seasons of working motherhood, from when they first find out that they're expecting or adopting and are kind of looking down the long line at what that might look like to be a working mom through, kind of, you know, with early age children and kind of climbing back up the career ladder if that's what they want to do, or being a successful entrepreneur. So kind of runs the gamut and that's what I'm doing now. But I am a recovering corporate consultant who has turned entrepreneur myself. That's kind of a way I would describe myself. So you know, if we back it way up, I graduated from the University of Georgia and you know I had a degree in advertising. I was so sure that's what I wanted to do. But my career has taken a few, you know, pivots since then and now, after spending over a decade as a marketing consultant, a project manager and a training developer kind of in the consulting marketing space, I, you know, and I leveraged that in my personal experience as a full time working mom, you know, to help women embrace working motherhood. And the truth is that work, that Mama Collaborative, was born from my own needs as a working mom, which I feel, like a lot of businesses are, kind of born from a need that the owner has or has experienced. You know, after I have I have three kids who are now five, three and one. And after I returned to work full time with my first son at a job I loved, by the way, and felt supported you know, great situation.

Speaker 2: 6:04

But after I had my first son I really struggled to find my footing, you know, like between the pumping sessions around client meetings and constantly getting sick kid calls from daycare and just like really being exhausted. I just found the transition to motherhood and working motherhood completely overwhelming and I didn't have a plan. I was flying by the sea in my pants, you know every day was different and there was not, didn't feel like there were a lot of resources at the time, five years ago, to help working moms navigate the ups and downs, especially in that new mom period. So I ended up getting burnt out, exhausted. My wonderful boss at the time recognized that and told me to take a week off, clear my head, got me a career coach. So I had a coach and that made all the difference, and so, you know, I learned from that experience.

Speaker 2: 6:58

I really wanted to turn that back and provide something similar to other women in, you know, similar situations, who were new moms trying to be like what can I even do this? Can I go back to work? Do I want to? What will it look like? You know? You know just, will it be sustainable? Can I ever enjoy myself again? And so, again, that is what I focus on now, through coaching, training, online courses, workshops, and I hang out a lot on Instagram, where I have a really nice community of women and I try to kind of do things that incorporate getting feedback from the community so that we all just don't feel so alone, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:40

For me that time after my first my son was born was completely overwhelming, and I had my own business at the time, which I wanted to do, knowing that I wanted to have children, because I felt like I wouldn't be able to fit being a mom into a corporate or a business structure. But it is such a it's the time of life that I think is unlike any other time of life that happens and I can see how the work that you're doing I mean it impacts me personally because it is helping me to do a better transition this time than I think the last time I was able to. But I want to start and talk a little bit like big picture about some of the structures that are in place and the assumptions that we have around. This time. There isn't federal support for new parents. Some states have some support, but how does not having financial support, or limited financial support, affect both the new parent and then the company that they work for?

Speaker 2: 8:57

To answer that very bluntly. I think it's very hard right. You know, in theory I think everyone is supportive of families and putting that in their quotes Like that should be a positive thing that our community embraces, whether it's the CEO of a global corporation or an employee or anyone in between. But I think a lot of times it does come down to a question of cost and financial support. And if we had the right financial support, all of this could be a smoother transition. There would be better resources in place, the cultures of organizations just because there were better resources, better training, paid leave, things like that I think the cultures would just benefit greatly from it.

Speaker 2: 9:47

But, like you're saying, there's not a standardized type of financial support for parental leave. In our country. The government at a federal level, they are trying to push through different legislation and we'll see what happens with that. And at the state level, certain states do have some really supportive options for families, both moms and dads, to take leave, but others have literally nothing or almost, it feels like, opposed to it, and so there's just nothing consistent out there where I feel like people, whether it's the employee or the employer, can find resources on what to even do.

Speaker 2: 10:26

There's a stat out there. The current stat is there are 8 million new parents a year in the United States, and think about the trickle effect Each of those parents potentially has maybe a manager, some employees. Obviously some are not in the workforce. So if you have 8 million new parents a year, though, even if you each, there's another 8 million managers and colleagues and companies that are affected, like you would think this would be a bigger topic that we could find some way to help relieve the financial burden right, yeah, and literally everyone was a baby at one point.

Speaker 2: 11:05

Yes, yes, and literally everyone has a mother and a father. It takes two to tango, and so it's crazy to me that we haven't prioritized funding this because you and I have talked about. Because you're an entrepreneur, I've worked at smaller companies where there is a financial burden and the owners of the company are literally thinking how am I going to fund my own leave? How am I going to fund my employees leave? This isn't something I planned for. Maybe I have to hire a temp while they're out, so I should be double paying. I mean, even when people have the best of intentions, money and finances are just a hard topic, right?

Speaker 1: 11:52

Yeah, I see the role of the state as a part of the role of the state and the government federal government is to identify these kinds of issues that affect large swaths of the population and to create programs around them to protect people so that they are able to go through these transitions better than you know, then, we have in the past and I think that there's this idea that I mean it comes from centuries of the division of labor, of women working in the home and doing things in the home and raising children and raising up the workforce, and then men being primarily out of the home and being a wage earner and that piece.

Speaker 1: 12:46

But now that things have shifted toward having two earner households, there haven't been programs that have been put in place in order to support that transition. That has happened, which I am so grateful to be able to have a credit card and a bank account and, like the ability to own property, which I don't right now, but the ability to and to have my own business and to earn my own income. But with that also comes, as a working mother, being primarily responsible for everything related to children and the home in addition to everything else.

Speaker 2: 13:32

Yeah, no, it's a heavy load and I, as someone who works directly with parents, but also directly with companies, to support you know whoever may be expecting that year in their company. I do try to see both sides, you know, of the issue, and I think in the end, though, if finances could be removed or just the burden could be lessened by the state or by the federal government, what would go away is the resentment that comes with that. You know, if an employer can't give their or doesn't give their employee paid leave, you know, even if they love their job plan to come back and do come back they're probably going to feel some resentment about that. You know they have a family to feed there. They may be the primary breadwinner, and there's resentment there.

Speaker 2: 14:25

But also on the employer side, you know, if they feel like someone you know has been gone for eight, 12, you know, 16 weeks, which is unfortunately standard here in America, you know, and quote unquote not doing the work or they make the assumption that they're on a vacation. That's a bad assumption actually, which we all know. Any parent or anyone who knows a parent, that's not that. Any parental leave is not a vacation, but I see a lot of resentment brew there too. So, when you can, if you can help alleviate that financial pressure, a lot of that resentment alleviates too and creates a path for collaboration during this transition between an employee and an employer. True support celebration, even right, this should be a happy time.

Speaker 1: 15:12

Totally, and I think that the way it is now it kind of puts I mean, especially in states where there is no support from the state for disability or you know, however it's done in different states, it puts an especially heavy burden on the employer to take the place of the government in protecting their employees from these financial burdens, and so it's just so challenging in that way. But if a company is starting to kind of think about, like what is the right time to think about a parental leave policy, is it when you have a pregnant employee or someone who's the partner? Who is it then or is it before then?

Speaker 2: 16:02

Right.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Well, that's a valid question and obviously, in a perfect world, everyone which has to have some sort of policy, no matter how simple or robust, in place right now, as you're listening to this podcast, this is your sign if you're listening.

Speaker 2: 16:18

But I think what typically happens, especially in growing companies or smaller companies or companies who are dealing with it truly for the first time right, they're developing it on the fly kind of for that initial person, and that's okay. But it can feel rushed sometimes when that happens. But I think as long as the company does try to take a thoughtful approach to not just thinking about this first parent but how will this apply to all future parents, I think that's okay. I also think a company could use that opportunity to be collaborative with the employee going through it, or to form a small task force and let other employees of their company weigh in on what they might like that to look like, not necessarily just from a wish list perspective, but what might be realistic, what feels good, and even have non-parents or people who never want to be parents on that committee, just kind of. I think it's an opportunity for collaboration. If you have to do it on the fly, does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 17:26

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 1: 17:28

I have worked with a few different companies to develop parental leave policies and it has always been because someone is about to have a baby and that it's been kind of like a crunch time.

Speaker 1: 17:40

And what we have talked about, what I've talked about each time with them, is, from the HR side, there is submitting a leave of absence request, right, and I think that some employers can think, okay, I get this leave of absence request and so whatever they're requesting is gonna be that amount of time and I can count on that. But really it's, I think, so important to be in a collaborative process around how much leave is being asked for and then what the transition looks like to re-enter into the workforce, because it can look all different kinds of ways, because it's such a life-changing event to have a baby that the person may think that they'll be able to do something or that they'll want to do something, and then that can change, and so it's helped to have that conversation earlier on with the employer to kind of set the stage that things may not go back to exactly what they were before.

Speaker 2: 18:40

Yeah, absolutely. And as employers think about creating these plans, building in some sort of contingency, some leeway, some lower expectations, especially on the back when they're transitioning back to work, but building that into the plan, like we don't need to set ourselves up for failure by setting these unrealistic expectations and mom one and dad two will return on ex-state and everything will be as it was, because it's not for that person, for that new parent. Their life will never be the same as it was before they brought their new child into the world and they are going through a major transition, adjusting to new routines and a new identity, really all the things. And so I think trying to build that in that margin room into a plan upfront is something I would recommend everyone really try to think about.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Yeah, and I think you know, on On the one hand it is for some people they really want to come back to work and to be working full time and that is like the way that they want to move forward. And then for other people that shifts and and they may go into it thinking that that'll shift for them, but it actually turns out that they want to work a lot or, you know, they may Go into it thinking they may want to work part time when they come back, but they, you know it just, it can all change around. And what do you think? When you work with employers, what are some things that they can do to kind of prepare for that transition time back? Any ideas on how to be flexible while also making sure everything for the business gets done that needs to get done?

Speaker 2: 20:32

yeah, I think that's a good question and I think that the, in my opinion, what I've seen, what I've read, what I've heard that works the best is in your leave policy or if, even if you don't have a written leave policy and the expectation communicated with that new parent Is that there absolutely will be some sort of ramp up period, and what I mean by that is sort of transitioning back slowly to work in in a somewhat in a part time way. So there's a couple week period even one week would be very helpful for an employer to kind of plan for some of the. You know some of the Lower points of that. You know new parenthood, you know childcare snafus and you know being able to make it to work on time because you haven't had to be anywhere on time in a few months.

Speaker 2: 21:19

And Again, I just think, if you intentionally build it into your plan, whether it's one week of okay, if you could come in from you know 10 to 2 for the first week. And then you know, as you get used to your new routine with a nanny or a daycare, and as you figure out if you're a breastfeeding mom, you know how to pump away from your child and as you, as you know, maybe you need to just do some laundry girl like if a company could just build in a little bit of that humanity, I think that everyone would be set up for success, because because there's cushion and if it's expected to the employer from the outset, then no one's letting anyone down. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 22:02

Yeah, that makes me want to, because not everyone who's listening to this will have had a child or will have been close with someone who has, and that maybe we could paint a picture of what postpartum is like. You know, in that, maybe around that eight week time period, which is when a lot of people are trying to get back to work, and but what is life like for new parents in that in that time?

Speaker 2: 22:33

Okay, look, I don't want to scare anyone, but I am going to be. I am going to be honest. You know that's. It is a, it's a. It's a tough time for me. It's, especially if you are the birthing parent or a mother who may, at eight weeks, still be recovering from birth, whether that was a vaginal birth or a C section, which it? You know it is a major surgery. A C section is. People always are like, oh, it's only 15 minutes, it's so sophisticated and civilized these days it is. I've had to for three of my kids. It's actually quite civilized. However, the recovery from that you can't even drive a car, you know, for up to six weeks because you're on pain pills. It's the only surgery that cuts through seven layers of a person's body and you're expected to be walking four hours later. It can be either type of birth. Any type of birth can be a tough recovery is the picture I'm trying to paint. So, if you're a birthing mother, you're recovering from that. Okay, now let's bring in the new baby.

Speaker 2: 23:41

So, whether you're a non birthing mother or you know a father here, in this scenario, you are learning how to, for the first time, or maybe the second or third, take care of a baby Around the clock. Literally, you may only, at eight weeks, be getting one hour of consecutive sleep at a time. You may be getting that several times throughout a 24 hour period, but you are not getting good sleep. You're exhausted, disoriented. You're worried about feeding your child, and you know whether it's through breastfeeding or formula. You know, often times there are complications around feeding at a newborn baby. Are they gaining enough weight? Am I nursing okay? Can I learn how to pump? You know? Will the baby take a bottle when I go back to work? These are concerns you know.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Hormones and mental health issues are, are kind of flying around in this area as well. One in I believe, seven women will experience postpartum depression. And here is a stat that shocked me one in ten dads will Experience postpartum depression. That's from PSI, which is postpartum, I believe, support international. They yes and so that was surprising to me.

Speaker 2: 25:00

So when we talk about postpartum or mental health issues, they're not Just for the mom or just for the birthing mom. A male, you know, can experience that as well, and they're expected to be back at work, sometimes much sooner, mom. But you know these are all things happening around eight weeks, and you know. And then, of course, just Whenever you're transition back to work, is figuring out your new routine. What time do I have to wake up to get myself ready to feed the baby, to drive? Do a minor commute today care than the minor commute to my office? Can I Wake up at four now? Can I still wake up at six? You know there's new routines about. And then, of course, figuring out pumping if you're a breastfeeding mom. All on top of, by the way, just maintaining your life grocery shopping, cooking meals, paying your bills, you know, spending time with your partner, just all of it. That's what's going on eight weeks it's. It's a beautiful but chaotic time.

Speaker 1: 26:03

It's wild some things that came to mind for me, to our doctor's appointments because there are doctors appointments for the birthing person and then also for the baby.

Speaker 1: 26:15

That happened frequently during those first few months.

Speaker 1: 26:18

And then we were also figuring out like the social security number and getting them on medical insurance and, you know, updating all of that there.

Speaker 1: 26:29

So there's all this administrative kind of stuff that is involved in it to and then I know a lot of cultures around the world and have this forty day period, so it's about six weeks, where and the mother is supposed to be primarily inside in a warm place and taking care of the, the birthing mother and the baby taking care of by the community. And it just occurs to me that you know it's right around that time that we're really expecting people to go from being in a pretty sheltered kind of space with just people they know to then being out there in the world and very productive. And that you know it's a it's a start contrast between this, you know, caring for a little infant, like I think I was breastfeeding every two hours and napping maybe four hours at a stretch, you know, at the longest, and trying to, throughout the day, somehow cobble together six or seven hours of sleep and yeah, so it's definitely a wild thing to try to, you know, do that and then get yourself professional looking Right especially if you're working in person.

Speaker 2: 27:52

yeah, in an office like, or you know, in a restaurant or wherever it is that you're working, and no, seriously and I think one statistic that I heard during my certification program for being a maternity or parental leave coach, which is through the center for parental leave leadership, but we were taught that about 25%, so about a quarter of birthing mothers, are actually back to work within two weeks of giving birth in America. That's amazing to me. Wow, it is, but it goes back to there isn't leave. They need to make money for their families, like you know there's. They have to. I doubt I've never met a woman who would have voluntarily gotten up at two weeks and gone back to work, even people who are really passionate about their jobs, right, you know. So there's, there's that to consider to for sure.

Speaker 2: 28:50

And you know, one other thing when you were talking about getting presentable for work, one really lesser talked about, thing it because it seems it sounds vain, it seems trivial, but A birthing mother, her body has changed so drastically to carry a baby has grown truly, you know, may Still kind of be puffy and weird from surgery. You know, if they're nursing their, their breasts are usually really like several sizes larger than usual. You actually don't have clothes that fit. Yeah, in those early days, truly like, you have to probably buy new clothes that will like, be conservative enough for work to cover your chest, may be larger to accommodate your hips, which have stretched and grown during your pregnancy.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Like I remember Putting on clothes after my first baby and I went back to work after my first child at sixteen weeks, which you know is wonderful. But even then, even though I actually felt like when I looked in the mirror like hey, look okay. No, when I put on the clothes that I wore before my pregnancy, they did not button, they were too tight across my chest and that was surprising to me. But that's and put that as another thing to put on the parents. The birthing parents played of like well, now I'm gonna go spend more money to go shopping and I feel self conscious and it's that you know that trickles into work too.

Speaker 1: 30:11

It just kind of baffles me, because I think that a lot of like this part of the transition back to work doesn't really get talked about. It's like a mystery that the post like the postpartum period Sometimes is even, like you said earlier is thought of as like a vacation, but it's really, I mean, often times more stressful and more work than people have ever done in their entire life, on a twenty four hour basis, continually, for months on end, and because there isn't as much family support here in the states as there are, you know, in other places. It's really challenging and something that I learned.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Actually, I was watching a program about parental leave and they featured Iceland, and in Iceland they did I think it was a year long leave for birthing mothers. But they noticed that when they did that, there started to be this disparity in pay between birthing mothers and everybody else, and then so they decided that they would add in the partner leave so that the partner could also have a year of leave, and it was a take it or lose it kind of a situation. So everybody started taking it, and so it meant that the disparity in pay between the different groups of people was not as large, and so it helped to correct that imbalance which I mean. In the United States now birthing parents get I think it's like 75% of the pay of everyone else, and birthing mothers of color it's even less, like around 50%. So it's just a interesting. I was fascinated by that.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Yeah, I think they call that or that's a symptom of, like, the motherhood bias or the motherhood penalty. Does that sound familiar? It's usually a decrease or a gap in pay noticeably between parents, especially mothers, and everybody else, and what's interesting and awful at the same time is that it bleeds over to women who are not mothers as well. There is like a distorted perspective about all women because some choose to become mothers but that all women tend to feel the negative consequences of this motherhood bias, which is that like we're too emotional and we're kind of kind of not up to par and we have mom brain or whatever people. It's everyone or not everyone, but it is acknowledged as a misperception, but it occurs.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Mm-hmm. And it is especially true, I think, in hiring when women are in that 20s to 30s kind of phase of life, that some companies will not hire women who are around that age because they're assuming that they'll be having children and they'll have to deal with all of this parental leave. And I've even seen it happen in companies that I work with where there is not an intention to pay unfairly, but because a woman goes out on leave she may miss the normal period where raises happen, so she doesn't get the raise for that year. And then when she comes back, because there is this period of transition where she's ramping back up, there's another year of her not getting a raise or getting an increase in pay, and then it just kind of gets more and more compounded as the years go on if she has more kids.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Right, and one story that one of the other retained certified parental leave coaches was sharing in this cohort that I'm in was about that and it was about specifically a sales team. So sales people generally work on some sort of commission or have financial incentives for making sales. Well, whether you get four weeks or four months or six months or a year, if you're a salesperson who's a woman or a dad who's on parental leave and you're missing, you're not gonna make your sales quota. And so they had to kind of put together, you know, a task force and decide what would be kind of feel fair to the rest of this, to everyone right To support that working parent while they were on leave. You know, not leave them in the dust, but ensure that they sort of got the buy-in from everyone else. And so there wasn't even more resentment compounded on that person taking leave who also just got the bonus.

Speaker 2: 35:07

And I sort of forgot where they netted out. But it was a really interesting case study that they sort of they came up with a formula that was kind of like based on your previous year's sales and you know we'll do this percentage, and it was something. But I appreciate companies like that that strive to find some sort of solution, some sort of creative solution. It may not be perfect, but like let's try to build those kinds of contingencies into a written plan for our employers, for our parents.

Speaker 1: 35:36

Yeah, and I've worked with companies too where they've had the intent of, you know, for example, wanting to provide some kind of financial support during parental leave, but it's not financially feasible when the first pregnancy or the first birth happens. But it gets them thinking okay, in the future this is something that I wanna be able to provide. So how do I create the on ramp to that?

Speaker 2: 36:03

Yeah, absolutely. I've heard of companies. You know you can call it whatever you want. Some companies just call it like a bonus bucket and every year they put money into a bonus bucket and that money can be used discretionary, in a discretionary way really, for either kind of like small bonuses, little sussies, rewards, recognitions, birthdays, but also, you know, especially for a smaller company, maybe the one person in three years who might need to take a parental leave, and so no, maybe they don't quite have a parental leave policy that's guaranteed for everyone, but they're willing to dip into that bonus bucket and pay that person, you know, part of their salary, or call it a stipend, or call it a bonus, call it a baby bonus, something to help, because I do understand that not every employer on their own, without aid, is in a financial position maybe to pay a full-time paid leave.

Speaker 1: 37:05

Yeah, and I think you have brought up in the previous conversation of ours about even providing a little bit of support for the person. It really shows how much you care as an organization about them and can have a positive effect on retention, like I have seen that too, where if the company gives a gift card to somewhere, helps with diapers or formula or whatever it is, then it helps to bring the person back, absolutely, absolutely. So outside of financial support, what are some things that businesses can do to help their employees through this transition?

Speaker 2: 37:52

You know there's a lot. There is a lot and I think it comes down to the culture you build, the culture you want in your organization, whether there's just two people or 2,000 people. But I think that we have to start by being kind of open and celebratory about growing families and help and give the impression that families and children are assets and not liabilities. That right there, costs nothing. So congratulate your employees who are expecting, ask them questions about how it's going. That doesn't relate to your bottom line, right, you know, just be a human and just celebrating their celebrations. I think also being thoughtful about at least hopefully providing resources for that new parent, like mental and physical and kind of emotional health resources related to pregnancy or postpartum or return to work. But if you can't provide them like if you don't have an HR department or you just don't have access to those kinds of resources even just doing a little research on your own and sending an email to your employee like hey, I found a few links that might be helpful for you as you're thinking about planning for your leave Like that would have meant so much to me if a boss sent me that, even if they weren't giving me paid leave or I didn't work for this huge company with a big budget, so going out of their way to be thoughtful, I think, in a perfect world, providing managers with some training around this type of transition, like a kind of a family, a growing family transition. There's probably other life transitions that managers could be trained about how to support their employees through. It's because it's not really fair right that these we get just promoted and promoted and all of a sudden we're the boss and we have a whole team to take care of, and maybe we've never done that before. And so I think there's like some emotional intelligence kind of training and skill honing that employees can provide for their leaders.

Speaker 2: 40:09

A couple of other things just off the top of my head setting clear and realistic policies, like across the board, but being flexible, or with an emphasis on being flexible about schedules and changes and if someone needed to work from home because they had a sick kid, and all of that that we learned that we can do during COVID. So this isn't like a novel concept. We can be flexible to people's lives. And I think, finally, or one other thing, is modeling having the leaders model the kind of behavior I guess I'm not saying this right, but having leaders model family forward policies and family kind of forward tolerance. So, even if a leader or a manager is not a parent themselves, they leave early one day to go to their niece's ballet recital and they tell everyone I'm going to be with my family.

Speaker 2: 41:19

I heard some on the other day say that they tried to reschedule a team meeting and their manager said, oh sorry, I can't reschedule to that time. That's my therapy appointment and it's like okay, so mental health is a priority. It's okay to bring mental health into the picture, got it? Or if you do have kids, being the one especially, I would love to see more men do this leaving early to pick up the kids from school or being home when they're sick. But talking about those things, I think, also creates a culture that this is okay as long as work's getting done. We all know we're doing our best, life happens and we're going to prioritize family. I think that doesn't cost a thing but helps support, you know, people thinking about starting a family and those who have them. What if you?

Speaker 1: 42:10

have created or are in a work environment where none of that is happening, like how do you start it or what's a way to kind of introduce that? And I can imagine that a lot of difficult conversations can come up for people in those kinds of situations where it's not a family forward environment, where it's not conducive to people taking time away for work. I mean, it could just be that that's not the right workplace for a parent to be in.

Speaker 2: 42:52

That's a great question because I think that the reality is we can talk about an ideal world where you know there's maternity leave and paternity leave policies and everyone's welcoming and the CEOs are leaving early to pick up their kids. But likely the majority that's not what's probably happening in the majority of organizations in our country and so if someone finds themselves in one of those organizations where you know, at best you know kind of having a family is tolerated and at worst it's mocked, ridiculed, judged, discriminated against, I think there's a couple of things people can do. Number one I think I'm just a huge fan of advocating for yourself firmly but politely, you know. I think it's always worth the question. So, going to your manager or your employer or the head of the company or whoever asking to talk about this specifically, provide some context, provide some solutions, like a leader wants to hear solutions, they don't want to hear about the problem. Some potential solutions could be that you are proposing putting together a group within the committee, within the organization, that will try to help build this part of the culture, or could be a support group for people within the company who find themselves to be a new parent or a working parent, women, whatever the subgroup is, but offering to spearhead that no one needs to do any work, there doesn't need to be a budget for it, even, but starting somewhere.

Speaker 2: 44:29

But I do think you have to ask for what you want. So, I think, advocate for what you think is best. If your employer is open to it, pursue that path, encourage it, water it, see where it goes. If things get better, then wow, you've made some change in your company and maybe it's a good place to stay and hang. If it doesn't get better, I think you have a decision to make if it's the right place for you. If you do advocate again back to the start of this decision tree if you advocate for yourself like that and you're met with disdain, dismissal, judgment, all the things, I also think it's maybe time to think about a different career path or employer.

Speaker 2: 45:15

And I don't say that lightly, because I know it's hard to find a good job and I know certain parts of the country or certain cities or smaller cities like there's a lack of available positions, but because the truth is, at the end of the day, you are replaceable to your company and kind of your company is replaceable to you or something can happen that's so out of your control that your job goes away. Your company could be acquired, your company could go under. They could fire you at will for no reason, depending what state you live in. This is, your company that you currently work at is temporary, but your family is forever. Your children are forever. You being a mom is forever, and so you need to do your best to advocate for your needs flexibility, paid leave within your organization, be an advocate for yourself and other families. And if you're not seeing traction there, I do encourage you to take a hard inventory and look at that situation and decide if maybe you need to look for something else.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Becoming a parent for me was a time when I started speaking up for my thoughts and beliefs and what like the perspective that I have around my family and raising my son and all of these things in a way that I had never really done before. It was a really big shift for me, I think, especially in my family I would tend to be quiet about things that because I didn't want to stir the pot or make things difficult, and so it's been a big learning process of saying the things that I normally keep inside and to speak up for the ways that I want for things to go, when I had learned to not be that way earlier on in my life. So it's so important to do that and also just acknowledging how not all of us are raised as women to have that voice and to be able to speak to our needs and to speak up for them, especially in a power dynamic of a workplace.

Speaker 2: 47:39

Yeah, I think I've probably been a little too empowered to speak my mind growing up, but I recognize that not everyone feels as confident raising their voice, raising their hand in certain situations. But I truly believe that if you approach the situation professionally, politely but well researched, it's almost like you're pitching something you've done nothing wrong by asking for something and then whatever response they give you is the information you need to process and make a decision for what's next.

Speaker 1: 48:21

Yeah, yeah. And I think that sometimes when you hear the response back, it can make you angry, it can make you upset, but really when you're in that meeting or in that conversation, it's just your information gathering. Yeah, you're learning about the environment and what is working and what isn't working, and you can take that and you can use it to make important decisions about your life. Which brings me to as an employee. If I have found out that my partner is going to have a baby or I'm going to have a baby and I know nothing about all of this, what are some things that I can do to help with my transition, both in and out of work and then just with having a little human?

Speaker 2: 49:15

Yeah, yeah, that's the million dollar question. My answer is not going to be very sophisticated, but I think the first thing you do is you get on Google and there are versus five years ago, when I was kind of going through my hard time, there are so many more resources available to every part of expecting a child, postpartum, returning to work, even right, that's a very emerging like. I'm an attorney, leave coach, I'm certified in it. Where was that a few years ago? That's cool, but I honestly I would start with Google, because I think in everyone's, wherever everyone lives, there's going to be some slightly different resources, policies, rules et cetera. But there are so many good blog posts, government websites, instagram accounts that have summaries for where to start.

Speaker 2: 50:08

I think that my personal advice is that in that first trimester, whether you're carrying the child or not carrying the child, that you hold steady, let yourself process and feel the feelings, the excitement, the nervousness, the anxiety, the amazement, not only to process, but also, as anyone who's been involved in a pregnancy knows, the first trimester is when I believe it's about 80% of miscarriages happened during the first trimester, and so, as excited as people can get, I really do encourage them to just kind of sit tight, nurture themselves, nurture their dreams during that first trimester and wait a little bit. And when they get into their second trimester, that's a good time to start planning, and I do mean planning like a written plan.

Speaker 1: 51:14

Yeah, I have had three miscarriages actually, and for me, every time that I've become pregnant, the first trimester has not been a joyful time. For me, it's been a very high anxiety, stressful, worried time, and this last time I intentionally didn't tell anyone that I was pregnant, because I knew that people were going to be really happy and that I wasn't going to be able to meet their happiness. Oh yes, yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker 2: 51:53

So you needed to process in a different way. You needed a little more time to process.

Speaker 1: 51:57

But then something happened when I moved into the second trimester where I think, hormonally things change, biologically things change. It's more likely that you're going to carry all the way to term and I just accepted it. And I don't think that's the experience of everyone who is pregnant and who has anxiety, but for me that was a big shift that happened at that second trimester time. And now, moving into the third trimester, there's this sense of needing to slow down and that of feeling my body getting bigger and dilating and being preparing to birth.

Speaker 2: 52:42

Yeah, yeah, no, that's amazing, and I do like most doctors say and people who have experienced it, I think it's. You may want a plan, you may want to research and you may want to do all these things. You may have a lot of anxieties, even about work that you're trying to research and find the answer to, but I think sometimes giving it a little bit of a beat is helpful. And then, when you are ready to do that, I always recommend putting pen to paper and writing down some sort of maternity or paternity leave plan, even plans between two partners for how they're going to support each other during this transition, and I think it helps people feel less anxious when they start putting pen to paper about okay, what am I going to do, what's my general plan, timing, what work responsibilities need to get handed off to someone else or paused, and how will I take those back on? What are my boundaries?

Speaker 2: 53:45

I think those are kind of the couple of basic things that I would highly recommend someone write down, even if it's just in a journal. Write it down Word document, excel, powerpoint, whatever you need. That would be. That's something I work on with people. I have kind of a different template, a kind of proprietary template that I use. But people find a lot of confidence or, I guess, sort of relief in letting go all the things that are swirling around in their head and capturing it into a literal plan document type thing.

Speaker 1: 54:22

Yeah, and I think when we did it it was like I did that first for work and then I did that for personal life and it just completely even knowing that the plan will not always go to plan. It just helped to get it all out of my head.

Speaker 2: 54:41

Yeah, yeah, and sometimes that's all we need, right, and we can take it a step further if we want. But I would just encourage parents all expecting parents to kind of get in planning mode, as simple or robust as that looks to them, because even though you might not be able to see exactly what life ahead looks like, especially if you're a first time parent, you know that change is coming. And what can you do now to set yourself up for success later is sort of what I would recommend thinking about.

Speaker 1: 55:13

I mean, there's just so many things, I think, related to the new parent time that you can plan out. I think one of the things that really helped me was learning about birth the first time around, especially because I had really no idea the different phases of birth, and I think I took a class with some people where it was six weeks long or something and we did that, and then also I was able to connect with some other moms who were all having kids around the same time and we, to this day, have a WhatsApp group where we, you know, text each other about different weird things that happen. So what is going on in your business right now that you want to share about? What are all the how? Can people be supported by you through the work that you do?

Speaker 2: 56:10

That's a great question. Thank you for asking. Yeah, you know, I'm really really honing in and focusing on doing one-on-one parental leave coaching. Typically I work with women, just kind of given my unique perspective as a mother also, but I'd be more than happy to work with dads who have a paternity leave coming up as well. So I do one-on-one coaching programs which typically last from the time you engage me.

Speaker 2: 56:42

So usually a lot of people that happens during the second trimester of a pregnancy and I work with that individual to plan for and literally make a plan for parental leave, put it into writing, help facilitate a conversation with their manager if they'd like me to. You know, pause to celebrate and do all the things. You know. We work together a couple sessions before their leave and then I'm there for them during their leave. I schedule a few check-ins but don't want to take up too much of their time, but in a resource they can text or call. I'm part of their team. You know anything they need that I can just be a sounding board for during leave I'm there and during that time we also start thinking about how will you transition back to work? Do you even want to transition back to work? You know what does that look like. And then I'm there for some sessions as the new parent returns to work, for about six months after, to ensure it feels seamless, supported.

Speaker 2: 57:41

We have a plan for things.

Speaker 2: 57:43

We're kind of mitigating any little challenges that come up, but it's a long, intensive coaching program and I love it so much because I get to go through this crazy life transition with different people and help them feel supported.

Speaker 2: 57:57

So one-on-one coaching is the best way to work with me. I can work directly with you, a mom or a dad who's listening, or I can work with an employer who may hire me for the one or two parents they have in their organization a year who will be going through this transition, and in that case I can also do some manager training, and so they also get a little bit of coaching, not only to help them, not only to help the employee who's maybe who's expecting, but to help them, because I mean, just because someone's a manager doesn't mean they know how to deal with one of their team members going out only for several months. They need support and help too, and so you know it's a whole ecosystem. So one-on-one coaching that's what I'm all about these days, though I also have an online course that you can buy. That kind of helps newer working moms think about how to juggle everything and, you know, streamline their tasks and prioritize self-care. And then just hanging out on Instagram, I just love to talk to people, so you can find me there.

Speaker 1: 59:08

Awesome, awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 59:12

Thank you for having me. I just, I just thank you so much. All the stuff you're doing for you know business leaders and for people who are wanting to succeed in their careers. I love it. I love everything on this podcast. Thank you.