{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":8.4,"body":"Music."},{"startTime":9.119,"endTime":15.519,"body":"This is Belonging, a podcast that explores being alive in the age of loneliness."},{"startTime":16.348,"endTime":23.108,"body":"I'm your host, Becca Piestrelli, a writer, mother, and community tender currently living"},{"startTime":23.108,"endTime":29.158,"body":"on the ancestral lands of the Coast Miwok people in present-day Marin County, California."},{"startTime":30.848,"endTime":36.351,"body":"In this show, we explore topics like rites of passage, cultivating meaningful community,"},{"startTime":37.108,"endTime":41.959,"body":"seasonal and cyclical living, and what it means to be a good ancestor in these times."},{"startTime":43.148,"endTime":49.068,"body":"I have thought-provoking conversations with friends, teachers, elders, and ancestral medicine"},{"startTime":49.359,"endTime":53.626,"body":"keepers to help support you in bringing more meaning and connection to your life."},{"startTime":54.708,"endTime":59.268,"body":"I also pop in here and there to share updates and learnings from my own story, because we"},{"startTime":59.268,"endTime":64.168,"body":"were meant to do this together, cosmically holding hands as we walk the spiral of life."},{"startTime":65.428,"endTime":71.784,"body":"You can expect to be challenged by new or old ideas. Face your beliefs and what systems informed them."},{"startTime":72.405,"endTime":75.799,"body":"Get curious and brave to tell the truth about the deeper, harder things."},{"startTime":76.627,"endTime":79.111,"body":"And feel comforted in the knowing that you don't have to."},{"startTime":79.12,"endTime":85.68,"body":"Music."},{"startTime":85.737,"endTime":92.067,"body":"Welcome back to Belonging the podcast. It's Becca Piestrelli here. I'm sharing with you a"},{"startTime":92.067,"endTime":99.033,"body":"very special conversation with a human I really adore and have learned so much from, and that is"},{"startTime":99.204,"endTime":104.219,"body":"Bear Abair, a feminist and anti-capitalist business coach who helps small business people"},{"startTime":104.307,"endTime":109.187,"body":"and other beloved weirdos figure out how to build the world yet to come inside the world."},{"startTime":109.467,"endTime":114.787,"body":"That currently is. So this is not a business podcast episode, although that is the context"},{"startTime":114.85,"endTime":121.347,"body":"in which I worked with Bear was to look at the ways I'm working, which I share in the episode"},{"startTime":121.44,"endTime":127.027,"body":"very candidly. The ways I'm working, it's my 10th year working for myself. The North Star of my"},{"startTime":127.027,"endTime":134.787,"body":"business is to create a better, more liberated, more regenerative world through these conversations"},{"startTime":134.787,"endTime":141.507,"body":"around belonging, around feeling a deeper connection to all that we come from and to each"},{"startTime":141.507,"endTime":150.067,"body":"other and also it's a business inside of a system known as capitalism. What do you think when I say"},{"startTime":150.067,"endTime":158.736,"body":"that word capitalism? What comes to mind? Is it money? Is it shopping? Is it World War II? Is it"},{"startTime":158.871,"endTime":164.547,"body":"a system of oppression? What do you feel? Confusion? Wanting to put your fingers in your"},{"startTime":164.547,"endTime":171.187,"body":"ears and go la la la because it's so confusing and what does it mean about you if you like making"},{"startTime":171.187,"endTime":178.227,"body":"money or shopping and you're not alone if you feel that way. I, as someone who talks about and"},{"startTime":178.343,"endTime":185.267,"body":"educates and facilitates groups with this anti-capitalist mindset, with a more matriarchal."},{"startTime":185.941,"endTime":194.547,"body":"Communal, connected, liberatory way of looking at the world, also do it under the system of"},{"startTime":194.547,"endTime":196.753,"body":"of capitalism and I often feel confused."},{"startTime":197.752,"endTime":203.649,"body":"And there's a reason why I feel confused. So I asked Bear to come on and chat with me,"},{"startTime":204.117,"endTime":210.192,"body":"because I do want to build a world yet to come inside the world that currently is."},{"startTime":210.192,"endTime":211.337,"body":"I love that they say that."},{"startTime":211.967,"endTime":218.728,"body":"And in this conversation, we discuss making space for grieving our own and others' participation in capitalism,"},{"startTime":218.854,"endTime":222.452,"body":"the ways we internalize it and exploit ourselves in our own businesses."},{"startTime":222.452,"endTime":223.526,"body":"This was a big one for me."},{"startTime":223.958,"endTime":229.971,"body":"And how white supremacy's penchant for perfectionism plays a big role in it all."},{"startTime":230.152,"endTime":237.692,"body":"For me realizing like these qualities of perfectionism and urgency were all built into the system"},{"startTime":237.692,"endTime":240.18,"body":"that was made to keep me working,"},{"startTime":240.292,"endTime":244.072,"body":"even when the seasons change, even as the moon wax and wanes,"},{"startTime":244.072,"endTime":247.463,"body":"even as my body needs time of rest,"},{"startTime":247.592,"endTime":251.496,"body":"that this system wants me to be perfect and quick."},{"startTime":251.592,"endTime":254.224,"body":"That has been such a deep realization for me."},{"startTime":254.372,"endTime":261.227,"body":"And I wanted to continue my healing and my thriving under this system while making money."},{"startTime":261.326,"endTime":263.856,"body":"And Bear A. Bear was really supportive in me with that."},{"startTime":264.152,"endTime":269.599,"body":"And so I said, can you come on and talk to the people? Can you come on and help us more deeply understand"},{"startTime":269.872,"endTime":274.232,"body":"what we're experiencing, what we're feeling, help us unpack what feels confusing."},{"startTime":274.232,"endTime":282.512,"body":"So that is what we're talking about today in this really informative and dare I say enjoyable conversation."},{"startTime":282.512,"endTime":287.352,"body":"So here's my chat about building the world yet to come with Bear A. Bear."},{"startTime":287.76,"endTime":295.12,"body":"Music."},{"startTime":296.075,"endTime":301.116,"body":"Bear A. Bear. Bear A. Bear. Welcome to belonging. Thank you for joining me for this conversation."},{"startTime":301.852,"endTime":304.663,"body":"Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. Such a pleasure."},{"startTime":305.312,"endTime":311.712,"body":"Yeah, so I've known about you for a long time. People I love and admire kept name dropping you."},{"startTime":312.018,"endTime":319.792,"body":"Nicole Antoinette and Mara Glatzel and Toy Smith. And I was like, oh, who is this bear?"},{"startTime":319.792,"endTime":324.052,"body":"And then Nicole really encouraged me to join your radical business incubator."},{"startTime":324.052,"endTime":326.161,"body":"So I worked with you."},{"startTime":326.926,"endTime":337.66,"body":"For a lot of last year, looking at the ways I do business from a anti-capitalist lens and from a place."},{"startTime":338.66,"endTime":347.14,"body":"Of not doing harm or at least doing less harm and looking at the come from and looking at the system we live under."},{"startTime":347.14,"endTime":352.52,"body":"And I found it to be, I was actually really nervous to do that work because I felt immediately"},{"startTime":352.52,"endTime":353.951,"body":"like I was doing everything wrong."},{"startTime":354.1,"endTime":359.26,"body":"It was just so helpful and so encouraging. And I just right off the bat wanna encourage anyone"},{"startTime":359.26,"endTime":364.26,"body":"who's doing business to look into getting support from you."},{"startTime":364.74,"endTime":371.208,"body":"But the reason we're here is because I wanna talk more about capitalism."},{"startTime":371.28,"endTime":374.062,"body":"Cause it's up and people are talking about it."},{"startTime":374.18,"endTime":382.65,"body":"And I also feel like people are confused. So before we do that, I'd love to just hear like, who are you?"},{"startTime":383.1,"endTime":388.627,"body":"What do you do? sort of like that spiel or whatever comes through in this moment about who you are and what you do."},{"startTime":389.18,"endTime":392.7,"body":"Thanks so much for having me here. And thanks so much for being part"},{"startTime":392.7,"endTime":394.54,"body":"of the Radical Business Incubator last year."},{"startTime":394.54,"endTime":395.973,"body":"It was such a pleasure to have you there."},{"startTime":396.1,"endTime":399.484,"body":"Yeah, so my name is Bear Aimer. My pronouns are they, them."},{"startTime":399.547,"endTime":404.14,"body":"I am an anti-capitalist business coach and consultant."},{"startTime":404.14,"endTime":408.531,"body":"I also have done life coaching for a long time, although I do a lot less of that now."},{"startTime":408.7,"endTime":412.58,"body":"And my little email signature also says I'm a social justice educator."},{"startTime":412.58,"endTime":417.975,"body":"So I do anti-patriarchy and anti-racism work in a variety of contexts."},{"startTime":418.065,"endTime":424.384,"body":"So that's sort of my, just like the bullet points, the headlines of what I'm up to in my work life."},{"startTime":424.54,"endTime":429.111,"body":"I just love to orient to geographic locations. It makes me feel really secure."},{"startTime":429.507,"endTime":431.658,"body":"So you are from New Orleans."},{"startTime":432.324,"endTime":436.494,"body":"Like many generations. I'm from Louisiana many generations."},{"startTime":436.494,"endTime":439.374,"body":"I lived in New Orleans for the last 17 years,"},{"startTime":439.374,"endTime":445.351,"body":"though most of my family lives in the further west in Louisiana, in Cajun country."},{"startTime":445.459,"endTime":449.854,"body":"So, but I lived in New Orleans for 17 years until last summer when I moved to Brooklyn."},{"startTime":449.987,"endTime":452.075,"body":"So now that's where I am. Yeah, cool."},{"startTime":452.574,"endTime":458.174,"body":"And before we got on, we were like, we're both gonna be New Yorkers who aren't from New York."},{"startTime":458.323,"endTime":464.021,"body":"Commiserating on being people with, who like to hug and talk about feelings living in New York."},{"startTime":464.336,"endTime":467.454,"body":"It's really some culture shock, but I love New York. I love being here."},{"startTime":467.454,"endTime":475.694,"body":"And I'm sure there are people, man, if anybody's listening who lives in Brooklyn and wants to talk about their feelings and hug sometimes,"},{"startTime":475.694,"endTime":478.414,"body":"like hit me up on Instagram. Hit us both up."},{"startTime":479.054,"endTime":483.234,"body":"Seriously, I am actively soliciting local friends. So."},{"startTime":484.014,"endTime":492.814,"body":"Oh yeah, it's so real. I would love to get started with defining what capitalism is. The reason I'm asking this is"},{"startTime":492.814,"endTime":500.174,"body":"because I think we humans live under systems that create a little bit of an amnesia and a confusion."},{"startTime":500.967,"endTime":508.734,"body":"And that's purposeful. And so I find that these words can be used like in the zeitgeist and the"},{"startTime":508.734,"endTime":514.174,"body":"memes, like in the Instagram feed or whatever it is. And sometimes we're nodding our heads,"},{"startTime":514.174,"endTime":518.296,"body":"But in our minds, we're like, wait, what are we talking about?"},{"startTime":518.614,"endTime":523.174,"body":"And with capitalism, it's actually like designed to be that complex."},{"startTime":523.174,"endTime":528.814,"body":"And so what I love is the way you just break it down and help us understand because I also"},{"startTime":528.814,"endTime":534.374,"body":"find sometimes with like, I'm just gonna like reference my family, some family members I've"},{"startTime":534.374,"endTime":541.054,"body":"talked about critically of capitalism, and they truly think I'm talking about shopping."},{"startTime":541.054,"endTime":545.573,"body":"And how, like the thing I'm talking about, consumerism and commerce,"},{"startTime":546.334,"endTime":549.854,"body":"and then it goes to like, well, would you rather live in China or whatever it is?"},{"startTime":549.854,"endTime":551.667,"body":"And it gets really confusing."},{"startTime":551.734,"endTime":555.854,"body":"And that's what, you know, the political conversation around economic systems."},{"startTime":555.854,"endTime":562.614,"body":"So I'd love for you to share what feels helpful in that context. What is capitalism?"},{"startTime":563.374,"endTime":567.734,"body":"It's funny when you say that, I was like, what is it that, what is capitalism again?"},{"startTime":567.734,"endTime":572.094,"body":"I also feel this every time someone is like, can you explain this to me?"},{"startTime":572.094,"endTime":574.214,"body":"And I'm like, okay, well."},{"startTime":575.534,"endTime":579.814,"body":"But I think that the way that I understand capitalism is that it's an economic system"},{"startTime":579.814,"endTime":585.494,"body":"where basically we are making money from money or making money from capital, right?"},{"startTime":585.494,"endTime":590.714,"body":"And capital can be money that we already have. It can be land or other property, resources,"},{"startTime":590.714,"endTime":598.533,"body":"natural resources, and that money is made exponentially from the exploitation of already held capital."},{"startTime":598.578,"endTime":603.574,"body":"So I think of that as a system that really,"},{"startTime":604.421,"endTime":611.731,"body":"requires continual exponential growth, right? That is like one of the facets of capitalism,"},{"startTime":611.731,"endTime":616.448,"body":"that one of the characteristics of capitalism that we can point to is that it requires,"},{"startTime":616.646,"endTime":619.571,"body":"I think of it as toxic growth, but if we wanna leave it really neutral,"},{"startTime":619.571,"endTime":622.929,"body":"we can just say continual exponential growth."},{"startTime":623.151,"endTime":624.703,"body":"It requires scarcity."},{"startTime":624.964,"endTime":628.169,"body":"Often that scarcity has to be manufactured in order to make it function."},{"startTime":628.592,"endTime":630.331,"body":"And it requires exploitation."},{"startTime":630.473,"endTime":635.691,"body":"So, it requires either exploiting land or people in order for it to function the way"},{"startTime":635.691,"endTime":641.771,"body":"that it does. Capitalism is really different than commerce because commerce is just the"},{"startTime":641.771,"endTime":647.611,"body":"buying and selling of goods. Commerce has existed for much longer than capitalism has"},{"startTime":647.611,"endTime":655.451,"body":"existed and hopefully will exist much beyond capitalism's inevitable downfall. And commerce"},{"startTime":655.451,"endTime":660.291,"body":"is just, you know, people exchanging goods and services with or without currency as part"},{"startTime":660.291,"endTime":669.491,"body":"of that exchange. And I think for me, capitalism is morally thumbs down. And commerce is like"},{"startTime":669.491,"endTime":674.891,"body":"morally neutral. And I think that that's one of the other kind of pieces that feels really"},{"startTime":674.891,"endTime":681.411,"body":"important to name is just like, yeah, capitalism in and of itself, like by its nature is harmful"},{"startTime":681.411,"endTime":687.651,"body":"and commerce in and of itself by its nature is just neutral. It can be used in ways that"},{"startTime":687.651,"endTime":692.091,"body":"are harmful. We could talk about materialism or consumerism or whatever else we want to"},{"startTime":692.091,"endTime":697.432,"body":"talk about, but in and of itself the buying and selling of goods is just ethically neutral."},{"startTime":697.971,"endTime":706.411,"body":"And I think when hearing this, I'm making a sort of assumption about what folks, including"},{"startTime":706.411,"endTime":711.251,"body":"myself might feel next, which is a feeling of being trapped,"},{"startTime":711.731,"endTime":717.426,"body":"or that sort of like turning the shame or frustration onto self,"},{"startTime":717.831,"endTime":722.831,"body":"because we live in and under capitalism."},{"startTime":723.836,"endTime":729.678,"body":"Like it's really, I mean, maybe some people can go off grid and fully escape it, but most of us can't."},{"startTime":730.291,"endTime":738.491,"body":"And so I find that this can be like a record scratch for people, particularly who are in relational spaces."},{"startTime":738.651,"endTime":746.411,"body":"I'm talking about threaded comments on social media where it's like, well, then can you criticize it"},{"startTime":746.411,"endTime":751.095,"body":"or call it morally thumbs down, but also participate in it."},{"startTime":752.805,"endTime":759.8,"body":"Right, so I guess what I would say to that is just that I'm not interested in moral purity. Yeah."},{"startTime":760.615,"endTime":767.455,"body":"I'm really interested in liberation and like, liberation holds space for so much nuance"},{"startTime":767.455,"endTime":774.15,"body":"and so much mess and so much duality and so much non-duality and so much complexity that,"},{"startTime":775.095,"endTime":781.063,"body":"moral purity and seeking out moral purity does not make space for."},{"startTime":781.535,"endTime":788.695,"body":"And so, yeah, I also feel trapped inside of capitalism and it sucks."},{"startTime":788.695,"endTime":795.855,"body":"And it can bring up all kinds of feelings of, you know, fear and anger and frustration and grief."},{"startTime":795.855,"endTime":803.235,"body":"And I feel like I can get right-sized about the way that I'm looking at my own engagement"},{"startTime":803.235,"endTime":808.556,"body":"with capitalism where I can sort of say, what about this do I not have any agency over?"},{"startTime":809.415,"endTime":814.237,"body":"Where actually might I have some agency? You know, I'm not going to opt out and go"},{"startTime":814.354,"endTime":820.215,"body":"totally off the grid and never engage with money or capitalism in any kind of way again in the"},{"startTime":820.215,"endTime":826.615,"body":"future, but I want to minimize the ways that I am reliant on capitalism even as I'm participating in"},{"startTime":826.615,"endTime":833.335,"body":"commerce, minimize the ways that I'm replicating the norms that capitalism relies on even as I'm"},{"startTime":833.335,"endTime":835.68,"body":"I'm making enough money to survive inside of it."},{"startTime":837.615,"endTime":848.455,"body":"Yeah, I've seen it likened to the zero waste culture of like, yeah, we can strive for and uphold this belief,"},{"startTime":849.775,"endTime":859.615,"body":"that we can maybe someday be not creating waste in this world, but like sometimes that means"},{"startTime":859.615,"endTime":864.455,"body":"like we have to buy the spinach in the plastic coffin."},{"startTime":864.455,"endTime":868.079,"body":"That's me very frustrated with that fricking spinach in the plastic coffin."},{"startTime":868.16,"endTime":875.175,"body":"But like, if buying that spinach in the plastic coffin makes us like we have failed."},{"startTime":876.415,"endTime":879.098,"body":"Then what does that, how do we move from that?"},{"startTime":879.295,"endTime":883.975,"body":"You know, like how do we move the culture and our family systems and our community systems"},{"startTime":884.121,"endTime":887.677,"body":"towards like liberation from waste or plastic, whatever it is?"},{"startTime":887.776,"endTime":892.286,"body":"And where is that possible in each of our abilities to do that?"},{"startTime":893.015,"endTime":897.935,"body":"And I feel like that has been a helpful frame to then bring it sort of like micro to macro."},{"startTime":897.935,"endTime":900.379,"body":"It feels like then within capitalism,"},{"startTime":900.901,"endTime":906.816,"body":"I sort of feel like capitalism wins if we turn on ourselves in that way,"},{"startTime":907.335,"endTime":910.66,"body":"and just sort of like surrender to the impossibility of it."},{"startTime":910.975,"endTime":916.095,"body":"That's where that takes me. Yeah, I think the despair factor"},{"startTime":916.095,"endTime":919.059,"body":"of living inside of capitalism is very real."},{"startTime":919.887,"endTime":929.097,"body":"It's very real to feel just totally at a loss for how to escape this hellish system."},{"startTime":929.745,"endTime":935.337,"body":"That all of us may find ourselves in. And I think you're right, like when we despair,"},{"startTime":935.337,"endTime":941.337,"body":"capitalism wins. And so I think for me, a big piece of that has really been like being willing"},{"startTime":941.337,"endTime":947.497,"body":"to really feel my feelings about it so that then I can move back into a place of like empowered"},{"startTime":947.497,"endTime":954.457,"body":"agency. And I don't mean that in a sort of like fluffy way. I really mean like I have, I have"},{"startTime":954.546,"endTime":959.977,"body":"grieved and will continue to deeply grieve the reality of the world that we live in. Right? How"},{"startTime":959.977,"endTime":965.417,"body":"many minutes are we in? I'm like, okay, great. We're like 10 minutes in talking about deep grief."},{"startTime":965.417,"endTime":974.057,"body":"Okay. So, you know, but to like really give myself permission to say like, yeah, it is shitty. It is,"},{"startTime":974.057,"endTime":980.897,"body":"is grief-inducing to look around at the world and, you know, and me from an incredibly privileged"},{"startTime":980.897,"endTime":987.857,"body":"position relative to the global population, and yet still I suffer inside of capitalism."},{"startTime":987.857,"endTime":992.637,"body":"We are all suffering inside of capitalism. And to really make space for my own grief,"},{"startTime":992.637,"endTime":997.657,"body":"my grief at my own suffering and my grief at the suffering of everybody else, including"},{"startTime":997.657,"endTime":1004.817,"body":"all the non-human beings and to really sort of allow for that and to not run away from"},{"startTime":1004.817,"endTime":1007.697,"body":"it and to not be like, I just actually can't touch that."},{"startTime":1007.697,"endTime":1015.05,"body":"It's like, okay, I can't touch it all the time. I can't touch it in like, giant, unrelenting doses."},{"startTime":1015.677,"endTime":1020.657,"body":"But like, when I feel a feeling of like, god, I can't believe this is the way things are,"},{"startTime":1020.657,"endTime":1026.006,"body":"to like, really let myself sit with that for a second and feel it fully, cry about it,"},{"startTime":1026.537,"endTime":1031.817,"body":"pillows about it, you know, go run around the block about it, whatever your tools are, so that"},{"startTime":1031.817,"endTime":1036.217,"body":"then I can be like, okay, I hate it that this is this way."},{"startTime":1036.217,"endTime":1037.088,"body":"And also."},{"startTime":1037.907,"endTime":1044.397,"body":"And also, right? Like, the and is so crucial, like, and also, I believe that I have agency"},{"startTime":1044.397,"endTime":1049.437,"body":"and I believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice as Martin Luther King says,"},{"startTime":1049.437,"endTime":1054.717,"body":"you know? It's like, I believe it, that we're headed in the direction of liberation even when"},{"startTime":1054.717,"endTime":1059.757,"body":"it feels really impossible. And that feels like, anyway, now we're just like really in the deep"},{"startTime":1059.757,"endTime":1066.077,"body":"end. I'm like, the commitment to the belief that we are headed in the direction of liberation feels"},{"startTime":1066.077,"endTime":1071.037,"body":"like spiritual practice to me. And that feels like the way out of capitalist despair."},{"startTime":1072.791,"endTime":1078.637,"body":"Or at least a way, a way that has worked for me to get out of the despair of living inside,"},{"startTime":1078.75,"endTime":1082.279,"body":"as bell hooks says, the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy."},{"startTime":1082.396,"endTime":1088.397,"body":"Yeah, that's where we got to kick it off, really, is grief work. In so many ways, that just seems to"},{"startTime":1088.518,"endTime":1095.997,"body":"be the way through. And that is something I often take like a long view, many hundreds,"},{"startTime":1095.997,"endTime":1104.477,"body":"if not thousands generational, animist, earth aligned, witchy view at these things of like,"},{"startTime":1104.477,"endTime":1110.637,"body":"how have we done life, you know, amidst all that's happened, we as human beings."},{"startTime":1110.915,"endTime":1118.757,"body":"And feeling the grief seems to be an important part of that. And actually taking that frame"},{"startTime":1118.757,"endTime":1123.357,"body":"to all of it, I love that you broke down capitalism into these three areas. So like exponential"},{"startTime":1123.357,"endTime":1125.757,"body":"growth, exploitation, and scarcity."},{"startTime":1126.705,"endTime":1136.212,"body":"And when I find myself feeling confused, or like, I don't know, befuddled with grief, shame, judgment,"},{"startTime":1136.563,"endTime":1143.035,"body":"funny feelings, to remind myself that exponential growth, exploitation and scarcity are not like"},{"startTime":1143.116,"endTime":1151.275,"body":"innate qualities of this fricking miracle planet we are living on and breathing on and heart beating"},{"startTime":1151.275,"endTime":1159.355,"body":"on and loving on and crying on and dying on and being born on. Exponential growth on a finite"},{"startTime":1159.355,"endTime":1170.955,"body":"planet makes no sense. Scarcity is not modeled innately. Exploitation is pain and does not lead"},{"startTime":1170.955,"endTime":1177.835,"body":"to more life. And there's ways you can make that super meta and there's ways you can just look at"},{"startTime":1177.835,"endTime":1182.537,"body":"at an ant colony or like look at like an ecosystem,"},{"startTime":1183.375,"endTime":1185.815,"body":"of which human beings are as well."},{"startTime":1186.895,"endTime":1191.455,"body":"And I think I find that helpful. Yeah, it definitely brings in the despair."},{"startTime":1191.455,"endTime":1194.294,"body":"I remember I saw this meme years ago."},{"startTime":1194.375,"endTime":1202.935,"body":"It was like, I think Rachel Rice shared it of like a gorilla or a monkey ape like creature"},{"startTime":1202.935,"endTime":1207.78,"body":"like creature walking up to a human being and saying,"},{"startTime":1208.707,"endTime":1211.597,"body":"I can't believe you have to pay to live here."},{"startTime":1212.835,"endTime":1219.519,"body":"And it was like a commentary on like human beings and how you to pay rent or a mortgage."},{"startTime":1219.675,"endTime":1227.115,"body":"And it like, boom, hit me like, like I was on mushrooms. Like I was like, what?"},{"startTime":1230.715,"endTime":1236.713,"body":"Oh my gosh. Right. Yeah. What are we doing? What are we doing this for?"},{"startTime":1237.091,"endTime":1240.962,"body":"Alright, so one of the things that you..."},{"startTime":1241.898,"endTime":1255.868,"body":"Personally helped me personally with was, I think, in my own awakening to unlearning of diving deep into like grief work,"},{"startTime":1255.908,"endTime":1261.788,"body":"being with around capitalism, is understanding that I have also,"},{"startTime":1262.117,"endTime":1271.588,"body":"many of us have also then put capitalism upon ourselves, internalized it and exploited ourselves,"},{"startTime":1272.068,"endTime":1278.898,"body":"expect exponential growth of ourselves, treated ourselves as like a resource to mine and exploit."},{"startTime":1278.988,"endTime":1284.488,"body":"And like, I'd heard it, but there's a way in which, I remember our first session,"},{"startTime":1284.488,"endTime":1290.646,"body":"you guided me through this process where I was in tears by the end"},{"startTime":1290.788,"endTime":1298.667,"body":"because I had a deep recognition of like, not just myself, but like my partner, my parents, my ancestors,"},{"startTime":1298.788,"endTime":1303.788,"body":"the way we have participated in capitalism upon our bodies."},{"startTime":1306.148,"endTime":1308.908,"body":"And I would love to hear anything you have to share about that,"},{"startTime":1308.908,"endTime":1317.625,"body":"because I think that is also a gateway for folks who are like, wait, but if I say it's bad, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":1317.848,"endTime":1320.101,"body":"And it's a way to partner with ourselves on it."},{"startTime":1321.188,"endTime":1335.068,"body":"Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. feel like that that angle of it of how have I ingested these norms and these ideologies of"},{"startTime":1335.068,"endTime":1344.828,"body":"capitalism and taken them on as my own governing principles in conscious and unconscious ways is"},{"startTime":1344.828,"endTime":1349.788,"body":"like such a useful question. Like how have I taken this in and made it the way that I'm making my"},{"startTime":1349.788,"endTime":1355.188,"body":"choices and living my life is really potentially really radical for people."},{"startTime":1355.885,"endTime":1367.268,"body":"And I really want to like frame this conversation about the internalized stuff up with the caveat that I don't think that personal liberation is the"},{"startTime":1367.268,"endTime":1371.128,"body":"end goal, right? So like we're gonna talk about it as an internalized thing, like"},{"startTime":1371.128,"endTime":1374.348,"body":"what's it mean for me, how's it showing up in me and myself and my life, but like"},{"startTime":1374.348,"endTime":1379.708,"body":"if we stop there we've missed the point. So just framing that up in that way"},{"startTime":1379.708,"endTime":1383.068,"body":"and I know that's not what you're doing, but just for the folks who are listening, that like,"},{"startTime":1383.708,"endTime":1388.588,"body":"getting free in our own bodies and in our own lives is like, it's a seed and it's the beginning"},{"startTime":1388.588,"endTime":1394.108,"body":"and it's the, you know, this sort of like, infinity loop of the personal back to the collective and"},{"startTime":1394.108,"endTime":1399.468,"body":"the collective back to the personal and always trying to move both of them forward. So yeah,"},{"startTime":1399.468,"endTime":1406.588,"body":"I mean, for years I've worked for myself and at some point early on in my self-employment process,"},{"startTime":1406.588,"endTime":1411.42,"body":"I realized that I was treating myself worse than I would have let any boss ever treat me."},{"startTime":1413.608,"endTime":1417.948,"body":"And so for years and years I had a little pink post-it note on the wall next to my desk that"},{"startTime":1417.948,"endTime":1420.719,"body":"that said, I refuse to be my own bad boss."},{"startTime":1421.854,"endTime":1426.104,"body":"I refuse to be my own bad boss because before I was self-employed, I worked in the service"},{"startTime":1426.104,"endTime":1432.424,"body":"industry. I waited tables for 12 years. I've never had an office job, so that's not been my realm."},{"startTime":1434.061,"endTime":1438.264,"body":"But I had a lot of bad bosses waiting tables, right? The restaurant industry is full of,"},{"startTime":1439.224,"endTime":1443.882,"body":"bad bosses. I had a few good ones too, but mostly they were pretty bad in terms of, yeah."},{"startTime":1444.344,"endTime":1451.464,"body":"Just expecting you to sort of sacrifice everything for the work, for the job, to be able to show up"},{"startTime":1451.464,"endTime":1456.744,"body":"at the drop of a hat, work long hours unannounced, like, just, you know, not get paid on time,"},{"startTime":1456.744,"endTime":1460.904,"body":"like, all these kinds of things. And I started working for myself and realized that I was"},{"startTime":1460.904,"endTime":1467.224,"body":"treating myself the same way or worse than these bad bosses had treated me. And at some point,"},{"startTime":1467.224,"endTime":1474.264,"body":"I had to just kind of stop and be like, what am I doing here? Like, who is making me do things in"},{"startTime":1474.264,"endTime":1479.944,"body":"this way? Who is making me extract from myself in this way? Who is making me exploit myself in this"},{"startTime":1479.944,"endTime":1486.148,"body":"way. And it's tricky when you're self-employed because you're both the boss and the employee."},{"startTime":1486.283,"endTime":1490.984,"body":"Right? And in a boss-employee relationship inside of capitalism, especially inside of capitalism"},{"startTime":1490.984,"endTime":1497.384,"body":"where like union power has been, you know, so greatly diminished, though it is getting stronger"},{"startTime":1497.384,"endTime":1503.064,"body":"again. But like where unions are not, you know, able to sort of fight back against the bosses,"},{"startTime":1503.064,"endTime":1509.864,"body":"the dynamic is really about the boss trying to extract as much work as possible for as little"},{"startTime":1509.864,"endTime":1514.584,"body":"money as possible from the employee, and the employee trying to get away with doing as little"},{"startTime":1514.584,"endTime":1522.424,"body":"as possible for as much money as possible from the boss. And like, what a dysfunctional dynamic"},{"startTime":1522.424,"endTime":1529.624,"body":"to set yourself up inside of in your own business. And I think that people, even if you are not"},{"startTime":1529.624,"endTime":1536.344,"body":"self-employed, like, we can still have internalized this logic and this governing principle in the way"},{"startTime":1536.344,"endTime":1541.665,"body":"that we are with our partners, with our families, with our kids, with our friends, with, you know."},{"startTime":1541.944,"endTime":1545.864,"body":"All the things that we show up to where it's like, oh, trying to get away from the work, oh,"},{"startTime":1545.864,"endTime":1550.136,"body":"trying to get more work out of ourselves, and like, this kind of back and forth dynamic that"},{"startTime":1550.344,"endTime":1554.744,"body":"really serves no one. It doesn't, like, it doesn't serve the work, it doesn't serve our bodies,"},{"startTime":1554.744,"endTime":1560.824,"body":"it doesn't serve the world, but we can really get trapped in that. So there's lots more I can say"},{"startTime":1560.824,"endTime":1565.704,"body":"about that. But like, that's sort of the first place that I started just about like, how do we"},{"startTime":1565.704,"endTime":1571.064,"body":"stop exploiting ourselves and get out of that kind of crappy, trying to pull one over on each other."},{"startTime":1571.921,"endTime":1582.024,"body":"Dynamic inside ourselves? Yeah, I refuse to be my own bad boss. I refuse to say mine. I refuse to"},{"startTime":1582.024,"endTime":1586.226,"body":"to be my own bad mom."},{"startTime":1586.384,"endTime":1591.907,"body":"I think I'm saying that because I see it coming up. I definitely see it in my work,"},{"startTime":1592.024,"endTime":1596.975,"body":"and I see it in the way I lovingly parent my child."},{"startTime":1597.785,"endTime":1603.635,"body":"With like deep intention, I call upon all the capacity and resourcing I can muster."},{"startTime":1603.635,"endTime":1608.995,"body":"I have a toddler, there are big feelings happening. I have just done, I have enough"},{"startTime":1608.995,"endTime":1614.835,"body":"knowledge in this time to be like, okay, we're going to be here for your feelings."},{"startTime":1614.997,"endTime":1619.715,"body":"We're going to create a space of wonder, like all these things that are important to me."},{"startTime":1620.354,"endTime":1625.555,"body":"And then I'm like, I'm having big feelings. I'm having a sick day."},{"startTime":1625.555,"endTime":1630.595,"body":"Like, granted, like, you know, no one's scooping me up and changing my diaper"},{"startTime":1630.595,"endTime":1633.551,"body":"and rocking me to sleep. Although I gotta tell you, that sounds great."},{"startTime":1635.555,"endTime":1641.257,"body":"There's so many times I'm like parenting my child and I'm like, I really wish someone would do that for me."},{"startTime":1641.395,"endTime":1647.955,"body":"And then this is where reparenting work comes in. But I just notice how I respond to myself"},{"startTime":1647.955,"endTime":1653.595,"body":"and my feelings and my needs very differently than how I respond to my child's."},{"startTime":1653.595,"endTime":1655.418,"body":"And it's just so interesting."},{"startTime":1655.755,"endTime":1663.97,"body":"Like it's the same body, heart, mind, spirit, soul, responding to two situations,"},{"startTime":1664.075,"endTime":1666.575,"body":"the similar situations in two different ways."},{"startTime":1667.555,"endTime":1671.316,"body":"And yeah, I guess I am just so curious how we learn that."},{"startTime":1674.675,"endTime":1681.722,"body":"Where we learn that. And I think I feel such a desperation for my child, Atlas, to never learn that."},{"startTime":1682.275,"endTime":1685.971,"body":"And here's the despair. Is that possible?"},{"startTime":1686.395,"endTime":1691.315,"body":"I love that framing. I refuse to be my own bad mom. I also refuse to be my own bad mom."},{"startTime":1691.315,"endTime":1696.555,"body":"And the reparenting work is big in my own life and also in my business, but certainly"},{"startTime":1696.555,"endTime":1698.736,"body":"in my real day-to-day life."},{"startTime":1699.415,"endTime":1703.215,"body":"That's what I'm working on, too. Yeah, and I'm not a parent of an actual child."},{"startTime":1703.215,"endTime":1705.755,"body":"But I am really trying to be a good parent to my inner child."},{"startTime":1705.755,"endTime":1713.515,"body":"Yeah, what a good question. How do we keep a kid, how do we keep all the new beings on"},{"startTime":1713.515,"endTime":1718.555,"body":"this planet from internalizing that? And man, it really makes me think about fractals and"},{"startTime":1718.555,"endTime":1723.635,"body":"all the things that Adrienne Marie Brown says about fractals, about where something at the"},{"startTime":1723.635,"endTime":1728.755,"body":"smallest level is then repeated up and up and up into the largest level. I mean, you"},{"startTime":1728.755,"endTime":1732.531,"body":"said that already, the sort of micro to the macro. But it makes me think about like, what"},{"startTime":1732.915,"endTime":1739.455,"body":"What are the ways that you can create, this isn't parenting advice, but what are the ways"},{"startTime":1739.455,"endTime":1744.855,"body":"that you in your life with your kid or me in my life with no kids and just in the world"},{"startTime":1744.855,"endTime":1747.232,"body":"that I'm trying to create? What are the ways that any of us?"},{"startTime":1748.411,"endTime":1754.442,"body":"Can create on the tiniest levels, experiences where we get to embody"},{"startTime":1754.793,"endTime":1757.53,"body":"relating to each other without exploitation,"},{"startTime":1757.809,"endTime":1760.573,"body":"relating to ourselves without exploitation,"},{"startTime":1761.101,"endTime":1766.361,"body":"relating to ourselves without the expectation of continual perpetual growth,"},{"startTime":1766.361,"endTime":1771.187,"body":"relating to ourselves and each other without the sort of baseline fear of scarcity."},{"startTime":1772.06,"endTime":1777.261,"body":"And how do we create like such a secure base of those types of experiences"},{"startTime":1777.261,"endTime":1783.821,"body":"where things are growing in a sustainable way and abundant in all kinds of ways and,"},{"startTime":1784.381,"endTime":1790.781,"body":"related to reciprocity rather than exploitation and create such a firm foundation of that inside,"},{"startTime":1791.586,"endTime":1795.661,"body":"ourselves and our relationships and our relationships with our kids and inside our,"},{"startTime":1795.799,"endTime":1802.461,"body":"you know, your kid themselves. So that then, when they experience, when they encounter"},{"startTime":1802.461,"endTime":1809.181,"body":"the norms of capitalism when they encounter toxic growth and scarcity and urgency and"},{"startTime":1809.181,"endTime":1815.221,"body":"exploitation that they recognize it as the aberration that it is, you know, where they"},{"startTime":1815.221,"endTime":1825.821,"body":"recognize it as something is wrong here because they're so steeped in and accustomed to a more liberated way."},{"startTime":1826.641,"endTime":1829.821,"body":"That's a nice response. Thank you. That feels good to hear."},{"startTime":1832.461,"endTime":1841.021,"body":"Because I think particularly in parenting culture, there is a urgent imperative to get it right."},{"startTime":1842.781,"endTime":1848.461,"body":"Which I can understand like a perfectionism that comes in, which is its whole,"},{"startTime":1848.461,"endTime":1853.741,"body":"it's all of that conversation, you know, around like imperfect parenting, and but also like doing"},{"startTime":1853.741,"endTime":1858.861,"body":"better and all that stuff, trying not to repeat trauma. And I like, I'm just remembering what"},{"startTime":1858.861,"endTime":1862.941,"body":"you said earlier, which is like, I'm not interested in like the purity of it. I'm interested in like,"},{"startTime":1862.941,"endTime":1868.461,"body":"just moving towards a more liberated way. Because I do realize I feel a lot of pressure to like."},{"startTime":1869.581,"endTime":1876.861,"body":"Parent in a liberated way. As I'm unlearning, as I'm doing my stuff. Yeah. And there's that's just"},{"startTime":1876.861,"endTime":1881.798,"body":"That's just a lot of pressure."},{"startTime":1881.941,"endTime":1888.281,"body":"I can't quote the study, but in some reading that I was doing in my own personal healing"},{"startTime":1888.281,"endTime":1895.781,"body":"from my own crappy childhood, I read a statistic that says that kids need attuned responses"},{"startTime":1895.781,"endTime":1902.467,"body":"from their parents only 30% of the time in order for them to have an experience of quote,"},{"startTime":1903.061,"endTime":1905.699,"body":"unquote good enough parenting."},{"startTime":1906.261,"endTime":1912.461,"body":"I feel like that should just be such a balm to the parents who are listening, because"},{"startTime":1912.461,"endTime":1915.501,"body":"you only have to get it right 30% of the time."},{"startTime":1915.501,"endTime":1921.701,"body":"70% of the time, you can get it kind of off the mark and trust that you're not totally"},{"startTime":1921.701,"endTime":1924.135,"body":"royally screwing up your kids."},{"startTime":1925.242,"endTime":1930.356,"body":"You can, you know, I'm not saying don't try, but like, you can lower the perfectionist bar,"},{"startTime":1930.41,"endTime":1938.452,"body":"perhaps. Yeah, we had, um, I interviewed a woman named Waverly Davis a couple episodes ago who"},{"startTime":1938.452,"endTime":1944.052,"body":"said the same thing. So this, this stat is making the rounds and I appreciate, and I would love to"},{"startTime":1944.052,"endTime":1948.684,"body":"know the original study too. Maybe we can find that and put it in the show notes because that,"},{"startTime":1949.412,"endTime":1950.899,"body":"That is so helpful to hear."},{"startTime":1951.012,"endTime":1957.092,"body":"So many ways. Yeah, for secure attachment and all of that."},{"startTime":1957.228,"endTime":1959.379,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1959.64,"endTime":1965.292,"body":"I also know that perfectionism is not innate and inherent in like, the living world we"},{"startTime":1965.292,"endTime":1970.47,"body":"are a part of, you know, you just have to garden or make it through one season of, you,"},{"startTime":1970.972,"endTime":1977.012,"body":"know, a spin around the sun to be like, oh, yeah, right."},{"startTime":1977.012,"endTime":1978.212,"body":"Looks different every time."},{"startTime":1979.445,"endTime":1986.612,"body":"– Yeah, yeah. And I think for me some of the like perfectionism work really got easier when I first"},{"startTime":1986.612,"endTime":1993.012,"body":"read that the Tema Okun piece about white supremacy culture, I think it's Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun"},{"startTime":1993.012,"endTime":1997.732,"body":"and we can put that in the show notes too, but about white supremacy culture where they frame"},{"startTime":1997.732,"endTime":2003.812,"body":"up perfectionism as a trait of living inside a white supremacist culture. And so then for me it"},{"startTime":2003.812,"endTime":2009.252,"body":"was like, again, going back to that sort of like infinity loop of like personal work and collective"},{"startTime":2009.252,"endTime":2014.692,"body":"work, the personal liberation work and the collective liberation work that framing up,"},{"startTime":2015.778,"endTime":2021.652,"body":"getting out of my own perfectionist tendencies as work that I was doing for collective liberation"},{"startTime":2021.652,"endTime":2025.252,"body":"made it easier for me to be committed to it. Because I was like, right, like, when I get"},{"startTime":2025.252,"endTime":2029.525,"body":"perfectionistic, I am actually perpetuating this cultural thing that I'm really trying to"},{"startTime":2029.652,"endTime":2035.412,"body":"stop doing. And so learning how to do this differently inside myself also impacts what's"},{"startTime":2035.412,"endTime":2040.852,"body":"happening culturally around me. And having that as a motivation and as a framing,"},{"startTime":2041.885,"endTime":2047.277,"body":"yeah, really has helped me to be less hard on myself and less hard on other people, you know?"},{"startTime":2049.42,"endTime":2053.669,"body":"Yeah, the less hard on other people thing resonates. I remember my own experience with that"},{"startTime":2054.074,"endTime":2059.092,"body":"learning. I was taking Rain Crows, the Burning Times Never Ended course, which is really taking"},{"startTime":2059.092,"endTime":2063.252,"body":"you through Caliban and the Witch. This book we will also link in the show notes and we will link"},{"startTime":2063.346,"endTime":2064.922,"body":"that course, Reign is out."},{"startTime":2065.831,"endTime":2071.286,"body":"The jam. Oh yeah. Also, do you know the book on fire podcast about Caliban and the witch?"},{"startTime":2071.367,"endTime":2077.681,"body":"No. There's a podcast that takes it chapter by chapter. It's some herbalists in North Carolina"},{"startTime":2077.681,"endTime":2083.121,"body":"whose work is really top notch. Yeah. So folks, I mean, yeah. If people are looking for many ways"},{"startTime":2083.121,"endTime":2088.321,"body":"to engage with Caliban and the witch. It's a tough read on your own. It's really dense."},{"startTime":2088.321,"endTime":2094.881,"body":"Yeah. I had to read it in my master's program and I had a wonderful professor who had a sit"},{"startTime":2094.881,"endTime":2100.641,"body":"in a circle like we were around the fire and just basically orally worked through it for a whole"},{"startTime":2100.641,"endTime":2104.081,"body":"year because we were like, we can't read this. Anyway."},{"startTime":2104.081,"endTime":2109.681,"body":"Yeah. Well, and for folks who don't know, it's a book that's about the sort of intersecting of"},{"startTime":2109.879,"endTime":2115.761,"body":"the rise of capitalism and the rise of patriarchy in Europe and the way that that happened alongside"},{"startTime":2115.92,"endTime":2118.8,"body":"the witch burnings and all of that. All of it."},{"startTime":2119.241,"endTime":2125.681,"body":"Yeah, Sylvia Federici is the author. And the other one more thing I'll say about ways to"},{"startTime":2125.681,"endTime":2129.521,"body":"access Caliban and the Witch, because that has been such a profound text for me too."},{"startTime":2130.321,"endTime":2134.161,"body":"Is that she wrote like a Cliff's Notes version of it."},{"startTime":2134.77,"endTime":2143.921,"body":"Where? It's called Women, Witches, and Witch-Burning, I think is the name of the book. I might be getting that wrong."},{"startTime":2143.921,"endTime":2153.441,"body":"We'll find it. But it's a very small little tome and it has an essay length version of the sort of headlines of"},{"startTime":2153.441,"endTime":2158.321,"body":"Caliban and the Witch. So if you're like, I would like to have this knowledge, but I can't commit to"},{"startTime":2158.321,"endTime":2163.921,"body":"250 pages of like the kind of depth and intensity that she gets into. It's a good place to start"},{"startTime":2163.921,"endTime":2170.801,"body":"anyway. Thank you. That is like the hot tip of the year. Frankly, I wish I had access to that"},{"startTime":2170.801,"endTime":2173.921,"body":"when I was taking graduate level coursework on it."},{"startTime":2174.119,"endTime":2178.321,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, she's still a living scholar. And I think people were just"},{"startTime":2178.321,"endTime":2184.001,"body":"like, yo, Sylvia, like, this book is awesome. But also, like, I need something I can read."},{"startTime":2184.561,"endTime":2188.321,"body":"I need something I can, like, have my undergraduate students read or whatever. And,"},{"startTime":2188.961,"endTime":2192.556,"body":"and so she wrote a, you know, a bridged version."},{"startTime":2192.691,"endTime":2199.441,"body":"Amazing. Thank you, Sylvia. Yeah, so when we were going through that text with Rain Crow"},{"startTime":2199.441,"endTime":2201.018,"body":"and the burning times never ended."},{"startTime":2202.089,"endTime":2209.199,"body":"Something landed for me with Rain's facilitation and Silvia Federici's work around perfectionism"},{"startTime":2209.199,"endTime":2212.865,"body":"for me as well, which was to really frame it,"},{"startTime":2213.342,"endTime":2219.643,"body":"as someone who grew up in a family culture around perfectionism or doing it right"},{"startTime":2219.86,"endTime":2221.259,"body":"versus doing it wrong."},{"startTime":2221.435,"endTime":2226.206,"body":"This whole concept that to be perfect or to do it right meant you won."},{"startTime":2226.503,"endTime":2230.914,"body":"And if you win, that means someone else loses."},{"startTime":2231.509,"endTime":2240.999,"body":"And to lose is to not survive. Like that's what my body is taking not being perfect as."},{"startTime":2240.999,"endTime":2245.059,"body":"Like if you lose, what does that mean about your worthiness,"},{"startTime":2245.059,"endTime":2247.578,"body":"about your ability to thrive?"},{"startTime":2247.992,"endTime":2254.257,"body":"That's because I struggled for years, particularly in high school and college,"},{"startTime":2254.779,"endTime":2262.619,"body":"with a real needing to be at the top and needing to succeed and not struggling"},{"startTime":2262.619,"endTime":2268.619,"body":"with so many things that now I can really understand around like neurodivergence and trauma"},{"startTime":2268.619,"endTime":2276.547,"body":"and things I was going through that made it so that I wasn't at least in a school setting, like winning."},{"startTime":2278.401,"endTime":2283.699,"body":"And then it sort of translating it to the way I looked at my body and the way I approached friendship"},{"startTime":2283.699,"endTime":2286.859,"body":"and the way I approached relationship and the way I approached the world,"},{"startTime":2286.859,"endTime":2290.284,"body":"the way I approached cooking food. like, and it created like a."},{"startTime":2291.689,"endTime":2298.925,"body":"A sort of dark passenger of my life that I really held on to. And I just had a real liberation"},{"startTime":2298.925,"endTime":2306.336,"body":"moment in that experience of understanding the framing of perfectionism as being like a tool"},{"startTime":2306.47,"endTime":2314.125,"body":"for this system. And like, I don't want to play in a winner's losers game. Because like, I think,"},{"startTime":2314.125,"endTime":2320.445,"body":"again, it is a miracle to be breathing and alive on this planet. Like it's a gift. And I don't want"},{"startTime":2320.445,"endTime":2324.925,"body":"want to squander it by playing some game where there are winners and losers when what is"},{"startTime":2324.925,"endTime":2327.419,"body":"truly beautiful is like us playing together."},{"startTime":2328.185,"endTime":2329.687,"body":"I love that. Yeah."},{"startTime":2330.759,"endTime":2336.016,"body":"Yes. Just yes. All the yes. Yeah. Okay. So can we talk about money?"},{"startTime":2336.241,"endTime":2336.988,"body":"Yeah, let's talk about money."},{"startTime":2338.212,"endTime":2339.185,"body":"But like, are we allowed to talk about money? What if we talk about the wrong way?"},{"startTime":2339.536,"endTime":2346.525,"body":"How do we talk about money? Can you tell me how to talk about money?"},{"startTime":2346.525,"endTime":2350.005,"body":"Is there a wrong way to talk about money? Am I offending people?"},{"startTime":2350.005,"endTime":2351.77,"body":"I feel shame when I talk about money."},{"startTime":2352.139,"endTime":2358.602,"body":"I desire transparency about money, but am I hurting people? Is money inherently bad?"},{"startTime":2358.909,"endTime":2362.618,"body":"These are the things that just went through my head in the last 20 seconds,"},{"startTime":2363.05,"endTime":2367.425,"body":"and is just something I think so many people contend with."},{"startTime":2368.127,"endTime":2374.685,"body":"Also, in the online coaching world, there's some money conversation, abundance conversation"},{"startTime":2374.685,"endTime":2379.56,"body":"that I personally find confusing, slash problematic, slash harmful."},{"startTime":2379.776,"endTime":2386.005,"body":"And I, as someone who charges for things that are, for services, sometimes have to contend"},{"startTime":2386.005,"endTime":2388.688,"body":"with my own feelings in relationship with money."},{"startTime":2388.742,"endTime":2393.805,"body":"So I know you potentially have a workshop coming up talking about how to talk about money."},{"startTime":2393.805,"endTime":2398.985,"body":"I've taken your Freely course that really helped me just look at it as numbers and math."},{"startTime":2398.985,"endTime":2404.847,"body":"And I'd love to hear anything that feels true in this moment about how to talk about money."},{"startTime":2406.117,"endTime":2413.167,"body":"Yeah, great. Thank you for leading with all those questions because yeah, I feel them too. Yeah, I"},{"startTime":2413.167,"endTime":2418.687,"body":"think the place I want to start here is also the place that we started around commerce versus"},{"startTime":2418.687,"endTime":2426.287,"body":"capitalism and capitalism as being sort of morally bad and commerce as being morally neutral or at"},{"startTime":2426.287,"endTime":2432.447,"body":"least having the potential to be morally neutral. And I think that I am arriving at a place where I"},{"startTime":2432.447,"endTime":2438.399,"body":"think the same thing is true about money, that a lot of us have that, well, let's just say,"},{"startTime":2438.588,"endTime":2444.767,"body":"I don't know what anybody listening has, but inside the world in which I am operating,"},{"startTime":2445.367,"endTime":2451.327,"body":"many people believe that, you know, money is the root of all evil, although I think that whole"},{"startTime":2451.327,"endTime":2455.26,"body":"quote is the love of money is the root of all evil, but right, that like, money is bad. That."},{"startTime":2456.047,"endTime":2462.287,"body":"Is a thing that many people believe. And then in other circles, some of the sort of abundance"},{"startTime":2462.287,"endTime":2473.084,"body":"mindset coaching industry vaguely veiled MLM cult world folks think that money is morally good,"},{"startTime":2473.418,"endTime":2478.287,"body":"right? And that having money is morally good. And that also is, you know, that also exists in like"},{"startTime":2478.287,"endTime":2487.087,"body":"the evangelical Christian sort of like prosperity gospel kind of stuff. So, those two ideas show up"},{"startTime":2487.218,"endTime":2491.807,"body":"in a bunch of different ways, right? Where like, you know, in the sort of like punk activist artist"},{"startTime":2491.807,"endTime":2497.087,"body":"communities that I was in and still am in, many people believe that like money is bad,"},{"startTime":2497.087,"endTime":2502.767,"body":"money is the problem, money is the reason that the world is so fucked up. And I actually sort"},{"startTime":2502.767,"endTime":2511.567,"body":"of think that it's somewhere in the middle and that money in and of itself could be morally neutral."},{"startTime":2512.687,"endTime":2517.187,"body":"I don't know if I'll go so far as to say that it is in and of itself morally neutral because of the"},{"startTime":2517.327,"endTime":2521.319,"body":"the weight of the forces that we live inside of."},{"startTime":2521.527,"endTime":2524.064,"body":"But I think that one of the things."},{"startTime":2525.1,"endTime":2530.95,"body":"That capitalism really does is says that we should not talk about money. And so I'm teaching this"},{"startTime":2530.95,"endTime":2538.55,"body":"class how to talk about money because I really want us to talk about it. Because anytime capitalism"},{"startTime":2538.55,"endTime":2543.43,"body":"says do this or don't do that, we can look at that, you know, we can look askance at that and"},{"startTime":2543.43,"endTime":2548.055,"body":"say is that really what I want to do? And so all the things that you just named, Becca, about like."},{"startTime":2548.163,"endTime":2552.15,"body":"You know, am I allowed to talk about it? Should I have guilt about it? Should I am I do I feel"},{"startTime":2552.15,"endTime":2556.11,"body":"shame about this or what are other people gonna think if I talk about it, that all of"},{"startTime":2556.11,"endTime":2563.91,"body":"that is programming, you know, from the culture, from the overculture, to use Dr. Estes' framing"},{"startTime":2563.91,"endTime":2570.35,"body":"of, you know, subculture and overculture. The overculture says money is shameful. The"},{"startTime":2570.35,"endTime":2574.99,"body":"overculture says you should have it, but you shouldn't talk about it. You should wanna"},{"startTime":2574.99,"endTime":2578.75,"body":"get more of it, but you shouldn't tell anybody that you wanna get more of it. You should"},{"startTime":2578.75,"endTime":2583.51,"body":"just quietly do that in some, you know, way that doesn't look like much. And you"},{"startTime":2583.51,"endTime":2586.27,"body":"definitely shouldn't talk about it. You shouldn't talk about needing it. You"},{"startTime":2586.27,"endTime":2590.81,"body":"shouldn't talk about having it. And one way or another you should feel guilt or"},{"startTime":2590.81,"endTime":2593.81,"body":"shame, right? If you don't have enough you should feel shame because that's a"},{"startTime":2593.81,"endTime":2597.61,"body":"personal failure. And if you have more than enough you should feel guilt because"},{"startTime":2597.61,"endTime":2601.23,"body":"like also you should feel bad about that because look at all the people who don't"},{"startTime":2601.23,"endTime":2607.35,"body":"have enough. Anyway, I don't know if I'm saying anything in a particularly linear"},{"startTime":2607.35,"endTime":2611.67,"body":"way here, but I think that money in and of itself is sort of morally neutral and that"},{"startTime":2611.67,"endTime":2617.751,"body":"talking about money is a moral good. So that's where I'll start, I guess, with that one."},{"startTime":2618.156,"endTime":2625.75,"body":"I'm very activated by this conversation because I feel curious and it feels alive for me. So"},{"startTime":2625.75,"endTime":2633.11,"body":"one thing that's coming to mind is this very commonly said phrase that money is energy."},{"startTime":2634.468,"endTime":2642.19,"body":"And that sort of feels similar to like money is neutral, right? And I also see it used in a way"},{"startTime":2642.19,"endTime":2649.55,"body":"to sort of bypass – yeah, I guess I sort of see it in like the abundance sort of community. And"},{"startTime":2649.55,"endTime":2655.31,"body":"then like in my own community is about money being energy where I can see like, yes, like if you have"},{"startTime":2655.31,"endTime":2659.95,"body":"it and you give it, it creates things, right? And it can create things for you and for other people."},{"startTime":2659.95,"endTime":2667.83,"body":"And it also can feel like it's bypassing like the system of capitalism, I guess is what I mean,"},{"startTime":2667.83,"endTime":2674.177,"body":"where money can equal power over or can equal like lack of power."},{"startTime":2674.67,"endTime":2682.072,"body":"And I suppose I'm confusing myself even in this moment about the neutrality stance around money."},{"startTime":2682.315,"endTime":2686.033,"body":"Yeah, yeah. I think that, I mean, I think I also feel a little like."},{"startTime":2687.33,"endTime":2697.26,"body":"About all of this. But I think some principles that feel helpful to me are, how can I look"},{"startTime":2697.26,"endTime":2706.38,"body":"at this thing that feels very fraught in context? I think the places that it starts to get in"},{"startTime":2706.38,"endTime":2714.6,"body":"the right amount of context, the places that it starts to get murky are like when my artist"},{"startTime":2714.6,"endTime":2720.36,"body":"activist punk community says money is only bad, it's only looking at it in context. It's only"},{"startTime":2720.36,"endTime":2727.16,"body":"looking at it from a cultural systemic lens and saying inside the system, through this lens."},{"startTime":2727.74,"endTime":2733.56,"body":"Money is bad. And it's not looking at how might money actually be really helpful to people,"},{"startTime":2733.56,"endTime":2741.32,"body":"how might money, you know, be, is there a way that money might be good? And the opposite happens in"},{"startTime":2741.32,"endTime":2744.953,"body":"in this sort of abundance mindset community world,"},{"startTime":2745.12,"endTime":2748.248,"body":"whatever that, I don't live in that land, but wherever that is,"},{"startTime":2748.44,"endTime":2753.06,"body":"that there is like a decontextualizing of money where it's looking only at it"},{"startTime":2753.06,"endTime":2758.56,"body":"from the individual perspective and saying money is energy, money flows to me,"},{"startTime":2758.56,"endTime":2764.038,"body":"money, whatever the things are people are saying about it there that frames it up as like a moral good."},{"startTime":2764.48,"endTime":2770.12,"body":"And I think that when I arrive at the place of money is neutral, money could be neutral,"},{"startTime":2770.12,"endTime":2776.88,"body":"It's because I'm trying to look at it from both the systemic lens and also from a personal lens,"},{"startTime":2776.88,"endTime":2778.56,"body":"from an individual lens."},{"startTime":2778.56,"endTime":2786.6,"body":"And when I blend those things, when I contextualize money but also look at it in terms of me personally,"},{"startTime":2786.6,"endTime":2791.143,"body":"I can see it as something that lives in the middle."},{"startTime":2791.24,"endTime":2793.115,"body":"Yeah, and I'm realizing."},{"startTime":2794.123,"endTime":2810.373,"body":"Through my work with you, the neutralizing but not decontextualizing or vilifying of money has helped me particularly with charging for what I offer."},{"startTime":2810.543,"endTime":2838.981,"body":"So that's also led to me creating this like sort of transparency page on my website about financial justice and accessibility. It's even affected the way I price most of my offerings in like a tiered model. And it's, I like I've been in business for 10 years. And I would intuitively price or price by comparison, like what are other people doing?"},{"startTime":2839.414,"endTime":2846.013,"body":"And it was just loaded, emotional, I would price too low, I would price too high,"},{"startTime":2846.013,"endTime":2849.181,"body":"it's depending who I ask, people would be offended by prices,"},{"startTime":2849.262,"endTime":2853.106,"body":"that still happens. But what you got me to do is just see it as math."},{"startTime":2853.7,"endTime":2858.778,"body":"And that has been immensely helpful to me to even repeat to myself,"},{"startTime":2858.84,"endTime":2864.872,"body":"because charging money for something to people, no matter what, can bring up stuff."},{"startTime":2865.187,"endTime":2868.693,"body":"Because of the system we're in, it makes so much sense that it's emotional."},{"startTime":2868.693,"endTime":2871.678,"body":"It makes so much sense that it's challenging or triggering or brings up."},{"startTime":2872.668,"endTime":2878.286,"body":"Feelings of insecurity, feelings of hoarding, like, yeah, that's because of the system we live in."},{"startTime":2879.951,"endTime":2885.078,"body":"And for you to say to me and the people who are working alongside me, like, just do the math,"},{"startTime":2885.253,"endTime":2890.573,"body":"just do the math. Like, look at what you need. Look at how much that costs. Look at, for me,"},{"startTime":2890.918,"endTime":2896.678,"body":"it was like, look how much I'm available. For me, it was like looking at everything I need to cover,"},{"startTime":2896.678,"endTime":2901.878,"body":"including my time, because I never covered my time, which was the exploitation piece."},{"startTime":2901.998,"endTime":2908.598,"body":"This all helped me feel so grounded and rooted in charging the amount of money I charge for the"},{"startTime":2908.598,"endTime":2913.958,"body":"thing I am offering. And I do the math for every single different thing I'm offering. It's different"},{"startTime":2913.958,"endTime":2920.998,"body":"numbers because I think about everything that's involved. And so it feels very whole and grounded"},{"startTime":2920.998,"endTime":2926.097,"body":"when I present it. And I've brought that to budgeting for our household. I've brought that"},{"startTime":2926.376,"endTime":2931.318,"body":"to the way we redistribute resources in our community. It's helped me immensely to just"},{"startTime":2931.318,"endTime":2932.497,"body":"just think of it as math."},{"startTime":2934.063,"endTime":2938.058,"body":"Yep. And like what's available and what's needed and what's possible."},{"startTime":2938.058,"endTime":2944.848,"body":"It's made it so in other community conversations I have, whether they're business minded or community minded,"},{"startTime":2944.958,"endTime":2949.738,"body":"I'm able to talk, literally have words come out of my mouth about it."},{"startTime":2949.738,"endTime":2953.698,"body":"Whereas maybe in the past, not maybe, definitely in the past,"},{"startTime":2953.698,"endTime":2958.586,"body":"I would just look like I couldn't find my words because what if I say the wrong thing?"},{"startTime":2958.838,"endTime":2960.26,"body":"So I appreciate that."},{"startTime":2960.878,"endTime":2969.37,"body":"Yeah, I love that. The way I talk about it in Freely is that we try to set our prices based on facts, not feelings."},{"startTime":2969.718,"endTime":2974.79,"body":"And it's not that your feelings don't matter. It's just that they're not the main thing"},{"startTime":2974.958,"endTime":2979.318,"body":"that you should be using to figure out how to decide how much to charge."},{"startTime":2979.318,"endTime":2983.958,"body":"Or at least I think that they're not the main things that we should be using to figure out how to charge."},{"startTime":2983.958,"endTime":2988.878,"body":"And yeah, for me too, in my business, I used to have so much kind of like weirdness about like."},{"startTime":2989.481,"endTime":2993.891,"body":"You know, I had a lot of assumptions about what I thought other people could afford. I had a lot of"},{"startTime":2993.891,"endTime":2997.971,"body":"assumptions about what I thought I could get by on. And when I actually did the math and sort of"},{"startTime":2998.268,"endTime":3002.931,"body":"looked at how much money do I need to live my life in a way that like allows me to thrive,"},{"startTime":3002.931,"endTime":3006.771,"body":"not to hoard wealth. I'm not interested in hoarding wealth. I think that hoarding wealth is."},{"startTime":3007.491,"endTime":3014.211,"body":"We'll go morally thumbs down again, right? But like, but to be able to like live a life where"},{"startTime":3014.211,"endTime":3021.571,"body":"I have the things that I need that you know that that's that's just the facts and like I've been in"},{"startTime":3021.7,"endTime":3025.811,"body":"you know a sort of personal process around that in the last six months because I just moved to"},{"startTime":3025.811,"endTime":3031.331,"body":"New York City where it is much more expensive than where I lived before um and I'm like finally"},{"startTime":3031.331,"endTime":3036.419,"body":"actually treating myself like a grown-up as in like I actually have like health insurance that"},{"startTime":3036.545,"endTime":3042.691,"body":"lets me see doctors now and not just in the event of a catastrophe like but it is expensive and so"},{"startTime":3042.691,"endTime":3049.591,"body":"So my rates have gone up for things and it's like, oh yeah, I feel some part of me still"},{"startTime":3049.591,"endTime":3053.591,"body":"is like, I don't know if this is okay to charge this much money for a thing."},{"startTime":3053.591,"endTime":3057.911,"body":"But when I actually look at the spreadsheet that says this is the number of dollars I"},{"startTime":3057.911,"endTime":3059.191,"body":"I need to make every month."},{"startTime":3060.473,"endTime":3066.487,"body":"Therefore, I need to charge this amount of money for the work that I'm doing."},{"startTime":3066.683,"endTime":3072.043,"body":"It creates so much energetic ease and spaciousness in the conversations that I have with potential"},{"startTime":3072.043,"endTime":3076.203,"body":"clients because I can say, this is how much this costs."},{"startTime":3076.203,"endTime":3079.783,"body":"And I know that that's because I didn't make that number up."},{"startTime":3079.837,"endTime":3085.043,"body":"I'm not trying to pull one over on my clients. I'm just trying to get my own needs met."},{"startTime":3085.043,"endTime":3089.686,"body":"And so then it's just a conversation that's about consent and what works for each of us."},{"startTime":3089.883,"endTime":3091.909,"body":"Like, is this a number that works for you?"},{"startTime":3092.125,"endTime":3092.567,"body":"Yes?"},{"startTime":3092.963,"endTime":3098.443,"body":"Great, I am like so delighted to receive money freely given from people who can afford to give it to me."},{"startTime":3098.443,"endTime":3103.603,"body":"Like if I tell you this is how much this thing costs and you're like, cool, I wanna pay that, I'm like, awesome."},{"startTime":3103.603,"endTime":3109.643,"body":"Like, I no longer have weirdness about taking money from people who can't afford to give it to me."},{"startTime":3109.643,"endTime":3113.923,"body":"And if I say this is how much it costs and somebody says, ooh, and I say, you know,"},{"startTime":3113.923,"endTime":3117.368,"body":"is that a number that's workable for you? And people are like, well, maybe not."},{"startTime":3117.683,"endTime":3122.403,"body":"Then there's like a second conversation we can have that's like, is there a way for us to work together anyway?"},{"startTime":3122.841,"endTime":3125.663,"body":"And some of that, again, most of that is just about the math, right?"},{"startTime":3125.663,"endTime":3130.483,"body":"So it's like, I build in some sliding scale spots to everything I offer so that people can access it"},{"startTime":3130.483,"endTime":3132.348,"body":"even if they can't afford the retail price."},{"startTime":3132.752,"endTime":3136.84,"body":"And then we just like to talk about like, what would feel doable for you?"},{"startTime":3137.155,"endTime":3138.478,"body":"What would feel doable for me?"},{"startTime":3139.003,"endTime":3143.403,"body":"And, you know, I'm using the word feel in that sentence, but it's really like, in terms of the math,"},{"startTime":3143.403,"endTime":3150.883,"body":"what is actually doable for this potential client? in terms of my math, what is actually doable for me to like, you know, reduce the rate?"},{"startTime":3151.63,"endTime":3155.402,"body":"And then it's just like, are those two things compatible? And it makes it so much"},{"startTime":3155.79,"endTime":3159.683,"body":"so that it's not about like me doing anybody favors, it's not about anybody needing to feel"},{"startTime":3159.683,"endTime":3166.243,"body":"guilty for, you know, anything. It just is like, do these are my facts, those are your facts,"},{"startTime":3166.243,"endTime":3168.803,"body":"do they do they match up in a way that works for both of us?"},{"startTime":3168.803,"endTime":3175.923,"body":"Yeah, same. And I've been, yeah, working that assumption in that."},{"startTime":3177.557,"endTime":3182.447,"body":"If like, this is why I love the tiered pricing, people pay on the higher end, like what a beautiful"},{"startTime":3182.447,"endTime":3188.927,"body":"gift they're giving to people who then say like, oh, who can honestly have the conversation,"},{"startTime":3188.927,"endTime":3194.367,"body":"which is brave, right? To say like, I can't actually pay this. And then I can say, well,"},{"startTime":3194.367,"endTime":3199.407,"body":"what can you and then I can be like, wow, I have saved some resources to support that. And then"},{"startTime":3199.407,"endTime":3205.887,"body":"other people have saved resources to support that. How cool, like your yes, like, let's just do that."},{"startTime":3206.058,"endTime":3211.527,"body":"And for folks who are not business owners, I wanna say that I have started to introduce"},{"startTime":3211.527,"endTime":3219.949,"body":"equity pricing into friend group situations, like dinners out and like Airbnbs for like weekends."},{"startTime":3220.127,"endTime":3226.727,"body":"And it's been interesting, but all in all, very cool to bring up a different way of doing it"},{"startTime":3226.727,"endTime":3231.047,"body":"instead of like, and for dinners out, I bring it up before we go out to dinner."},{"startTime":3231.047,"endTime":3233.047,"body":"And I say, how do we feel about this?"},{"startTime":3234.334,"endTime":3239.367,"body":"Like we order a bunch of food and everyone just dines and feasts."},{"startTime":3239.69,"endTime":3245.767,"body":"But like people who can pay a little bit more pays a little bit more and people who can just like give what you can,"},{"startTime":3245.767,"endTime":3247.406,"body":"give what you can, but we all feast."},{"startTime":3247.547,"endTime":3252.014,"body":"And here's about the amount of an entree. And I sort of like do quick math."},{"startTime":3252.107,"endTime":3254.769,"body":"And I say, so just think ahead and we're just gonna have a great dinner."},{"startTime":3254.823,"endTime":3257.362,"body":"And I've done it twice and it's gone great."},{"startTime":3257.938,"endTime":3263.538,"body":"And then I just booked an Airbnb with some friends and we did an equity pricing where we said,"},{"startTime":3263.817,"endTime":3269.627,"body":"it shakes out to this much per person and then what's doable for everyone."},{"startTime":3269.627,"endTime":3274.322,"body":"And I think we have like an intimacy with each other where some people say it's tight month,"},{"startTime":3274.867,"endTime":3275.817,"body":"this is what I can give."},{"startTime":3276.204,"endTime":3280.084,"body":"And other folks have said, I'm feeling good, I can pay 1.5 X or whatever it is."},{"startTime":3280.687,"endTime":3285.827,"body":"And we're only halfway through that conversation, so this is very timely, but it feels like,"},{"startTime":3285.827,"endTime":3293.488,"body":"okay, this is a different way of doing things where it's just the facts and we're including everyone."},{"startTime":3293.647,"endTime":3294.496,"body":"So I feel like."},{"startTime":3295.612,"endTime":3301.542,"body":"Excited about it. Yeah, yeah. And again, I think it's not that the feelings aren't relevant. It's not that"},{"startTime":3301.542,"endTime":3306.742,"body":"the feelings don't need to be felt at some point somewhere. But like, being able to like."},{"startTime":3307.982,"endTime":3314.822,"body":"Tease those pieces out a little bit and say like, what actually is my financial reality? And not"},{"startTime":3314.822,"endTime":3319.382,"body":"just how do I feel about my finances right now? Because again, going back to the very beginning"},{"startTime":3319.382,"endTime":3326.256,"body":"at a conversation, the internalized scarcity logic is running, that script is running in all of us"},{"startTime":3326.445,"endTime":3333.98,"body":"all the time, unless we are really trying hard to work against it. And so, the idea that it would"},{"startTime":3334.182,"endTime":3339.142,"body":"be better to pay less is something that most of us have internalized about most things. And so,"},{"startTime":3339.142,"endTime":3344.902,"body":"being able to sort of feel the feelings about that, process through the feelings about that,"},{"startTime":3344.902,"endTime":3351.942,"body":"but then actually approach these conversations with open-heartedness, because the feelings are"},{"startTime":3351.942,"endTime":3357.142,"body":"not the driving force of the conversation. Yeah, it's a very layered thing. And I, again,"},{"startTime":3357.142,"endTime":3364.142,"body":"we're working towards a vision of liberation imperfectly and,"},{"startTime":3365.182,"endTime":3369.672,"body":"Yeah, I think it's okay to stumble our way through a way of doing it differently,"},{"startTime":3369.89,"endTime":3376.632,"body":"instead of like choosing potentially like a veneer of like ease and comfort and safety."},{"startTime":3376.632,"endTime":3383.331,"body":"When actually, what is like its actual impact? You know, that's always my curiosity for myself."},{"startTime":3384.087,"endTime":3385.203,"body":"Like, who is this hurting? Really?"},{"startTime":3387.913,"endTime":3393.458,"body":"Well, Bear, our time flew by and we've got to close. I so appreciate everything"},{"startTime":3393.692,"endTime":3400.072,"body":"you've shared the way you hold it all, the compassion you have, the way you offer critique"},{"startTime":3400.072,"endTime":3406.493,"body":"in education and tools galore. At belongingpodcast.com, we're going to have some"},{"startTime":3406.763,"endTime":3409.112,"body":"good-ass show notes, so head on over there."},{"startTime":3411.391,"endTime":3416.792,"body":"I really try to cite my sources. I really try not to let people leave anything that I'm doing"},{"startTime":3416.792,"endTime":3424.792,"body":"thinking that these are my original thoughts. Everything I know is from the depth of scholarship"},{"startTime":3424.792,"endTime":3427.512,"body":"of other people. So anyway, good show notes. Yeah."},{"startTime":3427.766,"endTime":3433.743,"body":"Yeah. Totally right. The labor and research of all those who came before us that contribute"},{"startTime":3434.152,"endTime":3439.568,"body":"to our lineage of work, absolutely. And it's really helpful for us and the editors to,"},{"startTime":3440.18,"endTime":3446.072,"body":"furiously look for show notes when you say the name. So I appreciate that. So that'll all be"},{"startTime":3446.072,"endTime":3452.936,"body":"in the show notes including your class, how to talk about money, your class freely, and your website."},{"startTime":3453.032,"endTime":3459.272,"body":"And I also highly recommend Bear's course, Marketing for Weirdos, whenever you do that again."},{"startTime":3460.272,"endTime":3462.542,"body":"In the fall, yep, that'll be fall 2023."},{"startTime":3463.552,"endTime":3467.61,"body":"I remember we had a Halloween live call and you dressed as an alien."},{"startTime":3469.192,"endTime":3469.816,"body":"And I loved it."},{"startTime":3471.912,"endTime":3473.803,"body":"Talking about marketing. It was great."},{"startTime":3474.192,"endTime":3480.192,"body":"You know, why be in business for yourself if you can't be weird? 100%."},{"startTime":3480.192,"endTime":3490.467,"body":"Thank you so much for joining me."},{"startTime":3481.52,"endTime":3488.4,"body":"Music."},{"startTime":3490.89,"endTime":3495.672,"body":"In a time when our attention is being pulled in so many different directions, it means"},{"startTime":3495.672,"endTime":3501.116,"body":"a lot that you took time out of your day to spend it with me and in these important conversations."},{"startTime":3502.052,"endTime":3509.011,"body":"For show notes and links and more information about my guests, you can head to belongingpodcast.com."},{"startTime":3509.692,"endTime":3513.952,"body":"And if you'd like to hear more from me and get access to my free newsletter called Slow"},{"startTime":3513.952,"endTime":3519.931,"body":"and seasonal, you can head to beckapiestrelli.com slash subscribe."}]}