The Management Guide For Nice People

About the Guest:

Orion Jones is the founder of True North Motivation, a company dedicated to empowering individuals and organizations through leadership and motivation training. His leadership background includes having managed teams across various industries, including a significant stint as the Director of Operations and Capital Projects at the University of Findlay. 

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Chamber Amplified from the Findlay-Hancock County Chamber of Commerce, host Doug Jenkins and Orion Jones explore different management styles and their impacts on businesses. The episode examines the nuances of micromanagement and how self-awareness and trust in employees can vastly improve team dynamics. Orion and Doug talk about the common issues faced by managers, particularly focusing on the challenge of transitioning from a hands-on role to a leadership position that demands delegation and trust.

Key Takeaways:

• Micromanagement Detriments: Micromanagement can erode employee trust and self-confidence, ultimately hindering productivity.
• Transparency in Leadership: Being transparent about managerial decisions and fostering open communication can enhance trust and organizational alignment.
• Adapting Leadership Styles: Effective leaders balance empathy with the needs of the business, carefully managing delegation and support.
• Self-Worth and Performance: Personal self-confidence and professional self-worth are critical for both individual and organizational success.
• Proactive Mental Health Strategies: Implementing mental health awareness programs can protect businesses from potential legal issues and enhance overall employee well-being.

Music and sound effects obtained from https://www.zapsplat.com

Transcript

0:00:01 - (Doug Jenkins): Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Doug Jenkins from the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce. On each episode of Chamber Amplified, we're examining issues impacting the local business community. Whether it's employee recruitment, it could be retention issues, marketing, IT issues. It's really anything that can be impacting your business. Our goal is to give our members tips each week on at least one way they can improve operations and thrive in the current business environment.

0:00:24 - (Doug Jenkins): Today, we're talking about management styles, particularly. Are you a micromanager? It's okay to admit it. It's fine. We're gonna help you with that. Do you get too bogged down with actually helping out your employees to actually do what you're paid to do? We're gonna talk about that too. And maybe you're too nice to manage. Actually, that's a fallacy. You can be nice and still manage. We're gonna talk about that as well.

0:00:45 - (Doug Jenkins): My guest is Orion Jones of True North Motivation. We'll be talking about his experiences and what he learned from them and how you can use your own experiences to be a better and more trusting manager. Thanks again for tuning in. Remember, if you're listening on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, you can rate and review the show. It really does help spread the word. Now, let's get into it. This is one of those podcasts, Orion, where sometimes I do a podcast. It's therapy for Doug.

0:01:10 - (Orion Jones): So I hear that.

0:01:13 - (Doug Jenkins): I get it days. That's what today's lesson is, kids, let's get into it. One, let's start with the micromanagement thing, because that can be borne out of a lot of different things. Sometimes it's, you don't trust your. The people that you're working with. Sometimes that's just kind of how you were taught when you got into. When you started your career path. We know what happens if you can identify as a micromanager. Why should you stop being a micromanager?

0:01:45 - (Orion Jones): Well, and on top of that, it also has to deal with who's got their foot on your neck as well. So, I mean, if you're getting a lot of pressure to make sure that it's right and, you know, you're going to be the in the hot seat, then that can also affect how you micromanage others as well. So if you don't have the freedom to be able to, you know, be a manager and run your own, run your own show as well, that can affect the micromanagement as well.

0:02:08 - (Doug Jenkins): How do if. If you figure out, like, okay, I am driving my team nuts because I'm lording over every single element of their day. How do you start to walk that back?

0:02:20 - (Orion Jones): The biggest thing is that trust factor of do you. And it just has to do on an individual basis of do you have that trust in your employees? Most of the time, I would say at our level, in the organizations that we've been privileged enough to work with, the answer is yes. And then I fully believe it's so much of trans. So much of leadership is transparency and transparency and self. And I always love the saying that arrogance and ignorance sleep in the same bed together.

0:02:48 - (Orion Jones): And if you're too. They do because if you're too arrogant to be able to admit your faults, then you're too ignorant to ever change. And so being able to approach your employees and your leaders and be like, hey, I know that this is a fault of mine. Help me overcome this. And when you accept that fact and you're able to look yourself in the mirror and I always say pointing thumbs at yourself instead of fingers at other people and say, look, this is my fault.

0:03:13 - (Orion Jones): Here's. I need help overcoming it. And asking your employees for help and recognizing it is really stage one, step one.

0:03:19 - (Doug Jenkins): I think you raised an interesting point there. And, and I don't qualify myself as a micromanager. One, because I don't actually manage anyone here, which is probably okay. But two is like there's the flip side, like you said, you point the thumb back at you and I think it's, it's great. But you can almost take that to an extreme. And I think that's where I fall on the spectrum is I don't, I don't, I don't ever want to be someone who asks somebody to do something that I wouldn't do.

0:03:45 - (Doug Jenkins): But because of that I just end up doing the things because I've said, well, I would do it. So I will. I just do it instead of maybe delegating to someone else. Do you see a lot of that?

0:03:56 - (Orion Jones): And I'll never forget the growing pains as I work my way up the leadership channel because I come from a why do you think I had you boy background? You know, I mean my dad was, he was, he was. I don't remember putting that in a form of a question, son and let's go out and chop wood, mow the lawn, you know, why do you think you're around here type thing. So, you know, I come from this blue collar background and when I'm as I raise my way up in the ranks and I would Tell people what to do. I had a lot of problems with that because I'm like, oh, I need to do this, or I can do this, or I'm not. I'm not any better than them.

0:04:30 - (Orion Jones): And I've managed everything from housekeepers to grounds workers to maintenance guys. And there's a lot of times that I'm asking people to clean toilets, to clean up poop, to mow lawns, to do the. The jobs that so many would consider, quote, unquote, beneath them. And I always wanted to show them that I wasn't beneath them.

0:04:48 - (Doug Jenkins): Right.

0:04:48 - (Orion Jones): You know, we were on. I'm just. I'm just above, quote, above you by title, not above you as a human being. And. But along with that, I got in trouble on my way up the ladder because I wasn't doing my job as the director. And at one of my organizations, the VP of the company had to pull me to the side and be like, quit mowing the lawns. Quit doing these things. Like, that's not. Because then I. And what I realized is that it was taking away. Because when you manage a larger organization, you have. I had 70 people underneath me at one point, and he said, think of it this way. He goes, you're taking away yourself from the rest of the crew, and you're actually hurting your business long term because you're not using yourself as a leader properly.

0:05:34 - (Orion Jones): That's not your job. And that was such a hard thing for me to overcome as a leader that didn't want to be disrespectful to somebody telling them what to do.

0:05:44 - (Doug Jenkins): That's. Here's the thing I love about doing the podcast is like, a lot of times like, hey, this is what we're going to talk about. And then the conversation goes not a different direction. But I have an idea pop into my head as. As we're talking. This is. It's almost like how to be a manager if you're a nice person. And I think that's hard because, like, we're just wired. And especially if you're of a certain age, which apparently we've hit the age where we're of a certain age now. Orion.

0:06:10 - (Orion Jones): Yes, we are.

0:06:11 - (Doug Jenkins): Where when you came into the workforce, the, you know, the boss could be the person who just knows to the grindstone type of thing. And it's a good quality to have. But then when you get put into that role where you're in charge, it's hard to get away from it and then be like, well, now I have to be the person who's organizing things and take yourself away from it. You want your employees to know that you, hey, I.

0:06:36 - (Doug Jenkins): I'm gonna get in here and work. I'll roll my sleeves up with you, and we'll get at it. But like you said, that's not what you need. Sometimes is it hard for nice people to lead?

0:06:46 - (Orion Jones): Absolutely. And not just from wanting to do the job, but also wanting to be liked. And that's such a tough transition as a manager. The greatest parenting lesson and management lesson that I ever had in my life was I was a head college baseball coach, and I learned what it was like to not be liked. Not that I seek or sought that, but I had to make tough decisions, and I couldn't seek friendship while making those tough decisions, and I couldn't seek my players trying to like me. Even though human nature, especially when you're. I. I do. I am a nice guy. I don't, you know, I don't like confrontation. I don't seek confrontation after years and years of being able to do it. I'm good at it. I'm a professional at it, but I don't like it. And if I can avoid it. Yeah, you know, the same way.

0:07:33 - (Doug Jenkins): Well, the other part that goes along with that is because of the way I think that elder millennials and Gen X and boomers have been brought up. And this is. I hate sometimes talking about the generations as if everybody in that generation works the same way, because obviously. Yeah, but, yeah, painting with a broad brushstroke is you. You're taught to adapt. And I think it's a. It's an excellent quality that I would. I think every manager should have. Every employee should have, hey, this project isn't going the way I thought it would. Well, let's pivot and do this and be able to do that quickly and everything.

0:08:09 - (Doug Jenkins): But I do think sometimes you can be so amenable to that, that what your. Whatever it is the goal is starts to get lost in the process. How do you fight back against that? Again, it's therapy time for Doug today, folks.

0:08:29 - (Orion Jones): That's so funny. And. And again, you know, it's. It's. I love the saying, and I have a full trash can bucket full of sayings. I have a million things. Don't disrespect the person for digging a ditch, because it might be a ditch that you need. Duck. And that goes along with, you know, I can do this job. I don't want to disrespect this person and ask them to do something that I know I can do, or that's a horrible job.

0:08:52 - (Orion Jones): Or, you know, this person might not like me if I ask them to do this. Or I'm, you know, I need this person to do extra. My hardest thing was asking somebody come in and work extra overtime, especially if I knew that I couldn't do it. Yeah. So, like, if I was like, I need you to stay here, but I'm going to go home and take care of my family and go do what I want to do, per se. But I'm telling you as the director that to stay over and take you away from your family.

0:09:17 - (Orion Jones): And I do have a soft heart and that kindness right there is so difficult. And you just have to figure out what your balance is. And then I always was able to justify, and what I mean by that is I could look myself in the mirror or I could look them in the eye and be like, yeah, but I was here at 5 o'clock in the morning and I fight for you guys behind the scenes and I've got you guys better equipment and better pay raises and better living, you know, all the different things that the manager's responsibility is doing.

0:09:44 - (Orion Jones): So then when I did call that meeting, I was able to look at them and be like, great job on that sewage cleanup that you guys did. While you guys did that, I got you guys this new equipment or this new raise or, you know, and so I would be able to show that I was doing my job as a leader of my job is different. I. I am. I'm not the one that's grabbing the shovel, because if I did, I wouldn't be able to get you these other things. That is my responsibility.

0:10:08 - (Doug Jenkins): That seems like it goes back to the transparency that you were talking about, so that when you come in, everybody sits down at the table. You're not holding above like, hey, I'm doing management stuff. Don't worry about it. You're actually coming back to the table. Like, hey, here are the things that I was working on last week. This is how it benefits you. This is what I need you guys to do to make sure that I can continue to work on your behalf.

0:10:31 - (Orion Jones): I have no problem showing my work. And you know, when at the University of Findlay, rocking it today, I was the director of operations and capital projects, and I oversaw at times upwards of 15, 20 million dollars a year, along with 60, 70 employees a year. And, you know, I was able to look them in the eye and tell them how much I respected them and be able to say, I've done the work. There's Nothing that you gu are doing right now that I haven't done or I'm not willing to do. And when I could, I would show them that I would go and I would help remove snow and I would help, you know, whatever it was, mow the lawns, clean the toilet, whatever that was. And I would find the worst jobs. When I heard that there was a bad toilet backup, I would go and help just to show them that I was willing to. I couldn't do it every time, but I was willing to show them that I cared enough. And then on the flip side, I was able to say and show walk the walk, talk to talk.

0:11:22 - (Orion Jones): Hey, you guys went from $10 an hour to $15 an hour. Our housekeepers, I got our housekeepers to $15 at the University of Findlay. They were at $9 an hour. When I started that. To be able to look my team in the eye, that was the most prideful thing in the world. And it was really the greatest way to be able to get their respect and appreciation for me as their manager and director.

0:11:43 - (Doug Jenkins): So I care absolutely. And well, I think that really goes to going to bat for your team and then your, you're doing the job that you're paid to do, then you're making sure they're getting paid for the job that they're paid to do. It all comes together quite nicely. I know when we put this, this interview together, I talked more about micromanagement with you than anything else. And we've gone on a completely different than everything.

0:12:08 - (Doug Jenkins): I know you well enough to know that you'll just, you'll follow my while wherever I end up with the conversation.

0:12:13 - (Orion Jones): Wherever you go, brother.

0:12:14 - (Doug Jenkins): But I do want to go back. I want to go back to micromanagers and just how I hate using the word toxic. We use it way too much as a society, but it can be very grading on an organization and actually it actually ends up harming your productivity in the end, I would believe.

0:12:33 - (Orion Jones): Well, and I think self confidence is such a major mental stressor issue, mental health care issue in today's society. And that lays in with depression and all the other aspects that are happening, especially with the Gen Z and the millennials. And there is that everyone gets a trophy mentality where you know it is, it is hard. But when somebody micromanages you, you automatically feel like you're not good enough. You automatically feel like you're not trusted, you're not able to.

0:13:01 - (Orion Jones): And then it affects your self confidence and self confidence as a human being and, and as an employee in Your production and, and how you are on a daily basis is everything. And I don't mean self confidence from a cocky standpoint. I always say that, you know, self confidence is just loving yourself and having the confidence in yourself that you can do the job, you can do it well. You're a good employee, you show up on time, you're responsible. And when, when you have those things and then you're micromanaged, you're like, well, am I a good employee?

0:13:32 - (Orion Jones): Am I doing a good job? Am I? And when you start questioning that, that's when I, I call it the two wolves that sit on your shoulder and the good wolf and the bad wolf. And one wolf's telling you how good you are and the other world tells you how bad you are. And all of a sudden you start feeding that bad wolf. I'm not good enough. And, and that's how the toxicity of what micromanaging can do to an organization is that you start taking away the self confidence in your employees and the ability for them to be able to make decisions and the confidence for them to make the decisions and do their job properly. You start hurting all levels of your production.

0:14:07 - (Doug Jenkins): Do you find that someone who micromanages, I think externally it can feel like maybe they're just full of self confidence because they feel like, well, I know everything and everything like that. But the inverse I think could possibly be true where it's, I'm doing this to make up for a lack of confidence I have in my leadership ability.

0:14:27 - (Orion Jones): Absolutely. And it's almost the bully mentality. The reason why somebody's a bully is because they have a low self esteem and low self opinion of themselves. And when you micromanage you're like, they're not going to listen to me, they're, they're not going to hear me, you know, or, and it's that underlying premise of, of having low self confidence in yourself as a leader as well. Going yeah, I love when, whenever I would discipline somebody, when I talk about the accountability mirror of pointing thumbs, if somebody got, did something wrong at my, at my position or my career, I would always look to myself first and say, did I provide them the right training? Did I give them the right tools? Did I give them the right manpower? Did I give them the right, you know, did they have the things that they needed to complete the job?

0:15:08 - (Orion Jones): And that's what took me away from micromanaging, is that as long as, as a leader I knew that I led properly and provided those types of, of things, then I could look at the individual and be like, now it's on you. I had expectations and I provided you the right things as your manager and your leader and you didn't match up. And so that self confidence, as you pointed out, is so important. But you've got to again, talk the talk and walk the walk with knowing in your head you've checked those boxes off that you've given everything you can as a leader to be able to allow your employees success.

0:15:40 - (Orion Jones): If they're not then successful, then you can come to them and be like, hey, I don't want to micromanage you. I don't want to look over your shoulder, stop forcing me to do this.

0:15:50 - (Doug Jenkins): Yeah. And then set those clear guidelines in place. I know motivation and confidence and everything is really what led you to your new career endeavor or you're getting into true north motivation. We talked a little bit about it when we did your new member introduction here at the Chamber a little while ago. But let's talk a little bit about what it is you aim to do through the organization and how people can get in touch with you if they would like to talk a little bit more about that.

0:16:17 - (Orion Jones): You know, the biggest thing is, is just as I, as I hit on right there is the, the self confidence and self worth of employees and managers at all levels of the organization. And that's what I found throughout my trial, my own personal trials and tribulations. And I'm also getting my doctorate degree at uf studying leadership and, and specifically I'm writing my dissertation on depression. And the underlying cause that I've studied and learned about with depression is that low self worth. And I say that it's the I am philosophy. And what follows those two words?

0:16:50 - (Orion Jones): Those two words are the most powerful words that you can say to yourself. And what follow those two words dictate how you feel about yourself, your success in life and really your pathway towards greatness as an individual. And so I based my entire program on that I am self confidence philosophy. And it's for again employees, mid managers, VPs, it doesn't matter what level the organization you're at, because as we just touched on higher level managers, if they have low self confidence, that truly affects their ability to lead.

0:17:21 - (Orion Jones): So then that bases off of the four pillars that I have of forgiveness, gratitude, love and faith. And so often the reason why you have low self esteem is because you've never forgiven yourself. You've never looked at yourself and said what? What is it about me that's creating this low self worth, this low self value? And there's layers of the onions to that and you start peeling them back and you start looking in the mirror.

0:17:43 - (Orion Jones): But you know, that's what I went through and I, I hit rock bottom a few years back and that everything happens for a reason. And there was purpose in my pain. And that purpose led me to creating the best version of myself and led me to developing this program. And I was dedicated to finding out how I was going to become the best version of myself. Because I love the saying that I lived a great Facebook life. I look great on paper. You know, I had six figure salary, beautiful family, vacate, whatever you want to say. But I was shallow inside and I didn't have good self confidence in myself. And when I hit rock bottom, I had to look at myself and you know, I almost got to the stage where I almost took my own life. And that moment made me realize that, okay, I need to do a serious self assessment and figure out. And I didn't know how at the time, but I was like, I'm going to figure out how to become the best version of myself.

0:18:35 - (Orion Jones): And so that's when I started developing my program and started studying and, and you know, from the educational standpoint and the lived experience standpoint, I built the concepts that I now teach of the mind, body and spirit. Triangle. Garbage in, garbage out. If it's all, you know, you got to put positive things in your mind, positive things that you're watching and listening to, positive things in your body with nutrition and health and exercise, and some positive things in your spirituality and your faith and your connection with your higher power. As I say, you'll never become the best version of yourself without connecting to something greater than yourself.

0:19:10 - (Orion Jones): And that developed this program base that I was like, wow, this is my true north. This is who I am for the rest of my life. And it's ethics, character, discipline, accountability and it's work and it's, and it's all of those different things about self confidence and then living a life of forgiving others, being grateful to others, having love in your heart and sharing it with the world. And again, that's that connection of, of a higher power of faith. And that entire message I knew was beneficial to the world.

0:19:41 - (Orion Jones): And my higher power, my God is directing me to spread that love and spread that, that self worth. Because I, I truly believe in my heart of hearts that that's the baseline to a better society and a better world is when people love themselves first. They forgive themselves, they forgive others, they're grateful, they love themselves, they have Love in their heart that then radiates to the world and they share that with the world and then you make the world a better place.

0:20:08 - (Doug Jenkins): Nothing wrong with that, that's for sure. Well, again, I appreciate you sharing your journey with us on that because I know it's, it's deeply personal, but it's also a calling for you and being able to apply it practically to a number of different business implications I think is, I'm really looking forward to the future for you on that and appreciate you sharing some nuggets with us here today.

0:20:31 - (Orion Jones): Yeah, no, I appreciate it and this is what I can offer. And so you know organizations that there's, there's such a mental health crisis and I actually the, the Schumacher Law Firm from, from the Chamber, they, they put on an amazing presentation and everything ends up at times being CYA in, in business. You know, that's why you go through personnel training, sexual harassment training, you know, all of the different safety trainings because at the end of the day you're trying to cover your rear as an employee so you don't get sued.

0:20:59 - (Orion Jones): And that's just how it is sometimes. And when you incorporate mental health trainings as well, because companies are seeing people quitting or becoming fired and then suing them, saying I was depressed and you never did anything about it. I had a mental health problem and you never did anything about it. And that was discussed in that, in that presentation from Schumacher Law Firm. They did an incredible job of mental health awareness in the workforce and that it's an, it's showing that 30% reduction in production from their workforce that are depressed. The millennials and Gen Zs are seeing this higher mental health issues of depression and low self esteem and high anxiety and stuff like that. So being proactive as an employer and offering these programs up front, then if that does situation does arise and your employer or employee comes back and says I was depressed and you didn't do anything about it, you can say, hey look, we brought in Orion Jones with true north motivation and talked about self worth and self gratification, you know, and, and how you can become the best version of you. And he provided tools and coping mechanisms. If you chose not to incorporate that into your life and didn't tell anyone you needed more, that's on you. But we were proactive as a company and that's where I saw the business need for this. Of okay, well this is, that can be a very positive thing for a company to implement.

0:22:17 - (Orion Jones): Just being proactive and wanting to give their employees more than hey, we bought you guys pizza for the day.

0:22:24 - (Doug Jenkins): I do love pizza though. So I just want to. Never a bad thing, but it might not be the whole. Might not, you might not want to make that your entire plan for that.

0:22:35 - (Orion Jones): To just show appreciation through saying, hey, we want to give you guys tools and coping mechanisms to create the best versions of you. And I love in my program where I talk about the better you are, the better lives around the people around you are and you know, so the better person you are and the more love that you have in your heart, guess what? The better father you are or mother, brother, sister, family member, community member, employee, all around coworker, you know, just the type of human being that you are. The better you live your life, the better your life is and the better life that people surround you have as well.

0:23:11 - (Doug Jenkins): It all comes together quite nicely. We appreciate your time today. Again, if people want to get in touch with you, they would maybe want to talk a little bit more about your services and how you can get in touch or maybe they just want to talk a little bit more about how to develop better, better managers and leaders in their company. What's the best way to do that?

0:23:27 - (Orion Jones): You know, TrueNorthMotivation.com is the easiest to remember for anyone out there. My phone Number is form 419-348-0119 so you can get a hold of me that way as well. I wish I had the, the ticker board right here that I could point to but. But www.truenorthmotivation.com is the easiest to remember. True north motivation1gmail.com is my email address. Had to throw in that one because somebody had stolen that already. But.

0:23:56 - (Orion Jones): But yeah, definitely all my contact information is there online, not hard to find. I'm on, I'm located on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. I'm, I'm a social media guru now. Doug.

0:24:07 - (Doug Jenkins): Yeah. You doing the Tick Tock?

0:24:10 - (Orion Jones): I am doing the Tick Tock. I'm not on is the, is the X platform.

0:24:14 - (Doug Jenkins): Oh, why it's so positive there. I know, right?

0:24:17 - (Orion Jones): That's. Yeah. When I started seeing what they were allowing on there, I didn't want to associate my name brand with that. But those other five platforms, you know, I definitely don't hide from the world so. And then obviously I'm a chamber member as well. I'm a member of the Rotary Club. So you know, either one of those organizations you can check into my contact information and bio is on there as well.

0:24:36 - (Doug Jenkins): All right, well we appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining us?

0:24:39 - (Orion Jones): No, thank you, Doug. Thank you so much for having me. I love it.

0:24:42 - (Doug Jenkins): Thanks again to Orion for joining us on the podcast again. When him and I get together sometimes we get to meandering in the conversation, but hopefully we were able to give you a few practical tips and talk a little bit about how different management styles just even come to be and how you can really get back to the center and where you want to be with that. By the way, I rarely promote the next episode of any podcast, mostly because a lot of times when we record this, I have no idea what's coming up next week on the podcast or we're still trying to finalize a guest, something like that.

0:25:09 - (Doug Jenkins): But this week it's the rare exception. I think it's going to be our largest podcast ever. Next week in terms of guests, we're going to be talking about the Findlay City School Schools levy, the library levy, and the business case for both. We have a lot of people coming on for that. Really looking forward to that and trying to sort out all the audio from that as well. Chamber Amplified is a free podcast for the community thanks to the investment of members from the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce.

0:25:34 - (Doug Jenkins): Because of our robust membership, we're able to focus on providing timely information to the Findlay and Hancock county business community, run leadership programs for adults and teenagers, and be an advocate for the area, all while also providing tools that help local businesses succeed. If that sounds like something you'd like to be a part of, just let me know and we can talk about how an investment in the Chamber not only helps strengthen your business, but the community as a whole. That'll do it for this week's episode. If you have any ideas for topics we should cover on future editions, send me an email djenkinsindlayhancockchamber.com

0:26:05 - (Doug Jenkins): thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time on Chamber Amplified from the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce.