Energy Explained: What’s Driving Costs for Local Businesses

Energy costs are top of mind for many businesses right now - but what’s actually driving those changes?

In this episode of Chamber Amplified from the Findlay-Hancock County Chamber of Commerce, Doug Jenkins sits down with Jimmy Stewart of the Ohio Gas Association to break down what’s happening in the energy landscape - and what it means for local businesses.

They cover:

•  Why natural gas prices have remained relatively stable compared to electricity prices
•  How Ohio’s energy position creates a competitive advantage 
•  What’s driving increased demand for electricity 
•  The role of data centers and 24/7 energy needs 
•  How state-level decisions impact your business more than you might think 

Whether you're trying to understand rising costs or just want a clearer picture of the energy landscape, this episode provides practical, easy-to-understand insights for business leaders.

Music and sound effects obtained from https://www.zapsplat.com

Transcript

Jimmy Stewart’s Path To Energy

Doug Jenkins 0:04

Hello again and welcome to Chamber Amplified, brought to you by the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce. I'm your host, Doug Jenkins. Each week here on the podcast, we're talking about the things that matter to local businesses and organizations, whether that's workforce and leadership development, maybe it's marketing, it could be IT issues, it could be a reminder to turn off your notifications while you're recording a podcast. Like that just happened. That was a little bit Uber specific. Whatever the case may be, we're talking about the everyday realities of running something that serves our community. Before we get started with today's episode, again, I want to say thank you as we go into the 201st edition of Chamber Amplified. Last week was our 200th episode. It was really nice hearing people reach out and say that they like the podcast. I can't tell you how much uh it makes my day when somebody just randomly says, Oh, hey, I like the podcast. Uh, not that I don't think anyone's listening, but it's nice to know, I suppose. Uh, but that's really cool. Uh, we're excited to get into the 201st edition here, and here's to another 200 more. Uh, this episode also works as a bit of a companion piece to our April 7th fresh brewed business. That meeting we heard from the Hancock Wood Electric Cooperative officials about electric and what's going on with the grid, draws on it, consumption trends, that type of thing. Today, we're going to be talking about energy from a different angle, looking at it specifically at from the viewpoint of natural gas and how that fits in the bigger picture. Joining me today is Jimmy Stewart with the Ohio Gas Association that represents companies responsible for delivering natural gas across the states. While natural gas might not always be front of mind to you when you're thinking about your energy costs, usually it's that electric bill that you're concerned about. Certainly it plays a major role in energy costs, reliability, and even how electricity gets generated. What I think is really helpful about this conversation is that it breaks down how natural gas fits into that broader energy landscape, and we're not going to get too in the weeds with technical things, so don't worry about that. We also talk about why natural gas has remained relatively stable and how it's being used more in electricity generation and what's driving changes in overall demand. And we'll touch on data centers a little bit as well. Obviously, that's been a hot topic locally. We're not getting into it from a policy standpoint today, more of a practical question. One of the big questions about them is energy consumption. Natural gas could play a role in that in the future. We'll talk about that. And one of the big takeaways, Ohio actually in a very, very strong position when it comes to natural gas, and that has real implications for businesses here. You'll hear all about that coming up. So if you're trying to make sense of energy costs or you just want a clearer picture of how it all connects, I think you're going to enjoy today's conversation. And of course, if you do enjoy the podcast, don't forget to leave us a rating and review. You can do that on Spotify. I think you can do that on Apple Podcasts. If you can leave a review for it, please do. It really does help spread the word. Now, let's get into it. So uh energy. It's kind of in the news a little bit uh every now and then. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. But before we do that, uh let's just get familiar with you and the Ohio Gas Association and everything that you guys work on.

How Ohio Regulates Natural Gas

Speaker 3:14

Well, certainly, and thank you uh for allowing me to be a guest on uh this podcast. I um always happy to talk about energy, a little bit of background. I uh I live in southeast Ohio, uh right on the Athens Megs border. I did live in Athens for about 10 years, uh, but prior to that I went uh I grew up mostly in West Virginia near Charleston. Uh went to Marshall University and then I got my MBA at Xavier University, moved to Athens um in the mid-90s because it was in the center of my territory. I sold heavy equipment for uh uh caterpillar, basically, small uh small earth moving and uh material handling equipment. Athens was in the middle of my territory. Um, and so thought, well, that made sense. I didn't know anyone when I moved here, but uh geographically it made sense. So I moved to Athens, bought a place to live. Uh about a year and a half later, had some temporary insanity and and decided to run uh for uh political office uh in uh in in Athens and um uh won my city council ward seat. Uh and next thing I know, the city auditor, basically the finance director, um re uh took she moved away, she got remarried, moved out of town. Uh so I was appointed city auditor, and then I had to run for that the following year. Uh, won that election, and then um about three years later, a couple years later, they redrew the uh state legislative lines after the 2000 census, drew a brand new house district uh that, unlike most of them, was actually competitive between Democrats and Republicans. Um, and so uh I ran for that and and one did three terms in the House. Uh so that was basically Athens, Morgan, Megs, part of Washington County in Southeast Ohio. Then um my state senator did not run for re-election uh in 2008, so I ran for the state senate, uh, covering nine counties, basically Zaynesville, Cambridge, Marietta, Coshockton, uh very large territory. Uh, you know, the southeast and the northwestern Ohio districts are very large, usually, you know, eight, nine, ten counties, uh, in order to pull in 330 or 40,000 residents. So uh was in the Senate, uh became the majority leader of the Senate, uh, which is the number three position. And um, long story, but ultimately uh was offered the position of as president of the Ohio Gas Association in 2011. Uh, so it'll be almost 15 years this summer. It'll be 15 years this summer. Uh, and basically the Ohio Gas Association, we are the trade association and we represent all of Ohio's natural gas uh distribution and transmission companies. So not so much the folks that produce, you know, drill for natural gas, but the folks that move natural gas from point A to point B, send you the bill, uh, is essentially. So if you think of the large two, three-foot diameter pipelines, those are the transmission pipelines that may cross multiple states, bring the gas from the places that it's produced on down, and then you you have connections into that to the distribution companies, which tend to be the smaller diameter pipeline, lower pressure systems, uh, that just like a tree with the trunk branches out into the small branches or the arteries leaving your heart are large. By the time it gets to the capillaries in your fingertips, think of that as the distribution side. The smaller lines that are getting it to your house and everybody else's uh house. That's the distribution side. So uh with that said, some of the distribution companies are quite large, like companies you've heard of, like Columbia Gas or Enbridge, formerly Dominion Energy, Duke Energy. But we have many, many small members that, unless you lived uh in or near their territories, you probably never would have heard of. Uh, you know, some examples up in northwest Ohio would include KNG Energy, which actually stands for Kaleida Natural Gas. A lot of folks probably don't know where Kaleida is, but those in Northwest Ohio very well may. Absolutely, we do. Yeah, Sheldon, Sheldon Gas in Dunkirk, uh, you know, has a couple thousand customers. Uh Arlington Natural Gas up in Van Buren, a couple thousand customers, uh, if if that. Uh Waterville Gas, uh, maybe seven, eight thousand customers, and a couple municipal governments. So City of Hamilton and the city of Lancaster, just like you have your city water, your city sewer, those two cities also have their own natural gas distribution systems, their own lines and everything.

Doug Jenkins 8:09

So you have a uh perspective since you you have served in in the state house and and now work in the field of energy. I think a lot of times when people think about energy, they think about federal policy. Uh, how much does the state have to say when it comes to energy policy? And then how much does that in turn impact residents and businesses across the state?

Speaker 8:31

The state certainly does. Uh they they enact a lot of the regulations over the natural gas distribution lines. Uh, they do this through the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio, uh, the PUCO. Uh they they basically audit us on the safety side, the you know, make sure that that our companies are following all the uh rules and regulations of pipeline safety. And then they also uh it varies depending on the size and the the particular company, but they're also oftentimes involved in uh in the rate making. That diff there's some differences because some of our companies, I didn't mention this earlier, some of them are member-owned cooperatives, so that's a whole different ball game. Uh, some are set by their municipal uh ordinance, you know, by their city council. But suffice it to say, we are regulated by the PUCO, whereas the folks that produce natural gas, that drill natural gas and drill for oil, they are regulated, primarily regulated by the uh Department of Natural Resources in Ohio. So uh different setup. Uh we sort of do two different things, though we do operate together. Certainly there is uh there's a federal, there are there are federal rules that get enforced at the state level. Um, and then there's some of the siting that occurs at the state level. If you're say wanting to build a new pipeline uh within the state, there there are some siding requirements that you have to deal with. The uh, you know, the Ohio Power Sighting Board and PUCO and things like that. Uh we certainly do have to deal with.

Doug Jenkins 10:09

So let's start, or let's, I guess, zoom in first and just talk about the gas industry and what's happening in Ohio. Obviously, there's a ton of talk about uh electric rates, and we we can get into that in a little bit too. Uh, but before you and I uh sat down for the interview here, we talked on the phone and we talked a little bit about gas, is kind of in a different state than uh when I say state, I don't mean Ohio. Just it's a different thing than electricity generation and electricity distribution. Um, it's a little bit more stable, uh, which is good for the consumer, I would imagine.

Speaker 10:43

Yeah, um, it it is. And um, you know, and certainly natural gas compared to oil, which is more of an international market than what natural gas is, the price it didn't used to be this way up until about 15, 18 years ago, when the price of oil went up, the price of natural gas went up proportionately. That pretty much decoupled around 2009-10, uh, when the price of oil and gas collapsed around 2008, the price of oil went right back up within a year or two. The price of natural gas didn't. Um, the reason it for that in in the United States, at least, is because at about that time uh the shale development, getting shale uh getting natural gas and oil out of shale formations deep underground, which they always knew were there, the question was how can you get it out and make money? That was always the question. Once they took two old technologies, namely uh fracking and horizontal drilling and combined them together, and then over time kept getting better at it, technology doesn't stand still. So, as they continued to do that, the volume of gas they were getting out of these wells, you know, at that time was beyond anything anyone had ever seen. But three, four years later, what they were getting out was beyond anyone's dreams just three or four years earlier. And every, you know, it just continue, they continue to get better, they go, they go out further, and they're getting far more gas than anyone ever could have dreamed, even 15 years ago. So that has had the impact of flooding the natural gas market in the United States. Um, we still export we still import a little bit of gas from Canada because there were existing large diameter transmission lines that are still there. Canada produces a lot of gas. Uh many distribution companies are connected into that network, but well over 90% of the gas consumed in the United States is produced in the United States. And in fact, we export gas to Canada as well, and we export gas to Mexico via pipeline. Um, and since about 2016, have increasingly been exporting natural gas globally into countries you would never guess, but countries in Asia and increasingly Europe. What they do is they cool the natural gas down very cold. Go back to your high school physical science class, cool the gas cold enough, it turns into a liquid. They put the liquid, which is of course very dense in energy, more so than a gas form of natural gas. They put that in massive tanker ships and send it to places like Europe and China and Japan, and they take it to those markets. So, what you're part of what you're seeing right now on the Persian Gulf is some of those Persian Gulf countries also export a large quantity of liquefied natural gas LNG, and a lot of them are having trouble getting the natural gas out of the strait. So uh we don't have that problem in the United States. Our natural gas market tends to be pretty insulated from these, you know, world issues. Not completely insulated because we do export and we we're exporting now, gosh, probably about 15-18 percent, if not more, of our natural gas now we're exporting. So we're not completely insulated, but we're largely insulated, more so than we are on the oil side. We are insulated somewhat on the oil side because we produce so much oil in the United States that we actually export a few million barrels a day. And you might think, well, why would we export oil in the United States and yet we still import some, not as much, oil in the United States? Well, the reason for that is not all oil is the same. Right. And we we produce a lot of the light sweet crude you hear about on TV, and that's great, but the but refineries are set up to run on a basically a various blend of different types of oil, and some of them require a lot of them require some varying degree of heavy oil. We don't produce very much heavy oil in the United States. Fortunately for us, our neighbors to the south and the north do. Uh, Venezuela has a large oil supply, most of theirs is heavy oil. Um, but Mexico and Canada both produce heavy oil. So a lot of most of what we actually import oil-wise comes from Canada and Mexico. Very little actually from the Gulf of uh the Persian Gulf.

Doug Jenkins 15:32

So and is that I guess when you look at the current events, and by the way, for people listening to this, we're recording this on April 7th. So by the time this goes out, a week from today, on April 5th, it'll all be out of date in a day. Who knows what the state of the world will be uh uh when this when this launches, but um as it stands now, a lot of your Asian island countries, uh Pacific Island countries have put in a lot of conservation because of what's happening with uh in the strait right now. We're not seeing that type of thing happen here in the United States and really in the Western Hemisphere, and it would seem to be because of the things you just outlined.

LNG Exports And Global Shocks

Speaker 16:07

Yeah, I mean, we certainly um it has an impact on us because oil prices are more global for you know, are still it's very much a global market, but it's not you know as high as they are right now here, they're much higher in Asia and in Europe because they don't produce as much as they use, and they are heavily reliant on the Gulf, something that we have for for many decades, certainly my whole lifetime, people aspired, you know, hope that the day would come that the United States didn't have to rely on oil from that part of the world. And uh, you know, to a to a large extent, not completely, but certainly we we get less oil from that area than we ever did. Uh, we get more domestically than we have in a long, long time. Uh, you know, actually it's countries like India and China that are very much at risk because they have to import so much of the oil that they use, and they have to import a lot of the food that they use. And one of the things that's not talked about a lot, but it's nitrogen-based fertilizer is made from natural gas. And there's not enough, there's there's no other, I mean, in fact, in the late 1800s, they thought that this the scientists actually worried that the world wouldn't have enough nitrogen in the soil to feed a growing population. Um, that was one of the many forecasts of doom and gloom, which you know they're still around, but other things. Uh, but that was a big doom and gloom forecast in the late 1800s. How are we ever going to get through this? And in the early 1900s, um, a couple scientists came up with a process to take uh nitrogen from the air, out of the air using natural gas, and that natural gas uh based nitrogen-based fertilizer made out of natural gas, a lot of it comes from the Persian Gulf that helps feed um probably at least 50% of the planet. So uh it's it's critical, I think, for the rest of the world to get access to that nitrogen-based fertilizer that's coming out of the Gulf. So it's uh it's a real issue, and there's really not a substitute for it. It's made from natural gas. It's not made out of electricity, it's not made out of windmills and solar panels and nuke plants. It's made out of natural gas.

Fertilizer Depends On Natural Gas

Doug Jenkins 18:35

So those are kind of the current events that we're looking at. What are the other energy issues that business owners and and uh local leaders should be aware of? We can start with gas, but we can take it out to electricity and everything beyond the biggest. Oh, absolutely. Natural gas is a big part of uh the electric grid or can be a part of the electric grid. So what's on your radar?

Natural Gas In Power Generation

Coal Retirements And Renewable Limits

Speaker 18:54

Yeah, it is, and it's an excellent question because um I I think for consumers, be they large or small, consumers, industrial, uh they they need a reliable and inexpensive source of energy. Um, and over the last 15 years or so, that source has largely been natural gas because you know the producers got so good at what they were doing, they flooded the market. And with with just a handful of exceptions, um, maybe right after the Ukraine war and during a couple uh short-lived polar vortexes, um, where that becomes, you know, basically you can't get enough gas through the pipeline system because it's so cold. Um, but those are short-lived. But by and large, natural gas has been able to fill that need of reliable, meaning you don't have many outages, and affordable. It's cheap. And in fact, the price today is about what it was 20 years ago, or if not, it's actually probably less than it was this time 20 years ago, uh, for sure. I can't say I'd be hard pressed to think of any other commodity that's cheaper today than it was in 2006. But um, in fact, I think about uh a year or two ago it was as cheap as it was, I think, in 1998. Uh so um natural gas is cheap, it's reliable, it's domestic, and it's affordable. And yes, there are some price fluctuations, particularly in in uh in wintertime, if you get a polar vortex or something like that. The supply is domestic, and even within that, it's not all coming from the same place in the United States. It's not all coming from the Gulf, it's not all coming from Texas. It's some of it, a big chunk of it, is coming from Ohio, right, West Virginia, and um western Pennsylvania. So um that provides multiple sources of the product, which you know helps uh disperse the risk. So natural gas has been able to fill that void. The other thing that has happened, and in fact, what's been one of the growing markets of natural gas during this time period is the use of natural gas to generate electricity. Now, that's not a new idea, that's been going on a long, long time. What is what you're seeing though, what you saw traditionally was natural gas tended to be used to generate electricity often at peak electricity demand times when the price of electricity was very high. Because back when the price of natural gas was higher, the only time you could really make money burning natural gas and turning it into electricity was when the price of electricity was high enough to warrant it. So they had these and they still exist, peaker plants. Well, over going back to about 2012, 2013, 2014, you started seeing closures of a lot of coal fired power plants across the United States. Many of them were many decades old. There were some uh basically some environmental. Issues to that force their many of their closure. And the thing about coal-fired electricity generation is it's 24-7. You can depend on it. And even in even if the the river froze up and the barges couldn't deliver coal, you had months of coal typically on site at any coal-fired generation plant. So you had that reliability and affordability issue. Well, a whole bunch of those plants came offline at the same time, whether I guess by luck, as suddenly we had this huge new supply of natural gas, and it was cheap. And so combined with the environmental issues that were pushing some of those coal plants out of existence, you also had cheap natural gas generate electricity, probably cheaper than a lot of the coal plants could. And so that also put pressure on the coal plants. And so you've seen uh over the last dozen years or so some new natural gas power plants. There weren't enough built to completely take all the load that the coal plants used to generate, the coal plants that have come offline. Um much of that extra, that that a lot of what was added in addition to the natural gas units were wind and solar. And that's great. The only problem is is if you need electricity 24 hours a day and seven days a week, you can't guarantee with any degree of certainty how much that power those sources will generate, you know, in say the middle of January. You don't know. I mean, maybe we'll get a sunny and breezy day in January, but then again, we might not. It's hard to predict that. With something like natural gas, coal, and nuclear, you have that certainty. So there's there's trade-offs to all forms of electricity, and even uh natural gas uh, you know, works great for electricity generation as long as the supply of natural gas is uninter uninterrupted to that power plant because you can't store enough of it on site like you could coal and nuclear. And so as long as that's the case, um, you'll have natural gas fired power generation. Um, but it's been a overall a positive thing. Now, um, what else has come up though is the the demand for electricity nationwide from about 2000 until about 2020 was pretty flat. Even though we added about 40 million more Americans that we know of, um the demand for electricity really didn't go up much, which is pretty amazing. It's due to a couple factors. One um uh energy efficiency improvements. The other is that a lot of heavy industry that used a lot of electricity offshore during that time period uh to other countries. So that was a factor as well. Um now you're seeing a combination of industry coming back to the United States, and now the hot item, of course, are these data centers that are that are really popping up the last few years that use a tremendous amount of electricity, and there's a lot of criticism uh of that um because of the amount of electricity that they're using, and you know, we haven't really increased our overall electricity generation for quite some time, in part because the demand wasn't really increasing. Right. So now we're seeing projected increases, and I don't know. I mean, it's pretty humans aren't real good at predicting the future, and myself included. And so the predictions are that there's going to be a huge increase in demand of electricity that's gonna require some upgrades to the grid as well as additional generation. And these data centers use this electricity 24 hours a day and seven days a week. And you and me, and pretty much everyone you and I know that isn't Amish uses those data centers in one way, shape, or form in our daily behavior. Uh, when we're online or or you know, on a using an app on our phone or whatever the case may be. Uh, and some people, some folks use it a lot more than others, but you know, they're sort of the whipping post right now that uh a lot of a lot of folks are blaming for higher electricity prices.

Data Centers Driving New Demand

Doug Jenkins 26:34

And one last point on that before uh before we get out of here for the day is it seems that Ohio is and there's a lot, again, that could change uh with ballot issues and things like that, but it does seem that the legislature has made it more likely that natural gas can be the power source behind the meter for these data centers. Uh and I'm just curious uh from an industry standpoint what that looks like from your perspective, and and do you see that moving forward if so long as they're building data centers, I suppose.

Behind The Meter Gas Power

Speaker 27:05

There seem to be quite a bit of permits that are have been or are being filed uh to build additional natural gas power generation. Uh a lot of it is for these data centers. A lot of it, my understanding, is largely paid for by these data centers. Um and you know, the electrons are gonna have to come from somewhere, and they're gonna have to be there when you when you need them. It's not to say that renewables, solar, wind, whatever can't be a factor, and it's not to say that nuclear can't be a factor, it but I think in the short term, coal's not really the option. And I say this as someone who the coal industry sent my entire family uh to school, to college, um, uh myself included. I I, you know, I have but I just don't know how viable it is at the moment to increase the generation from coal. I don't know about nuclear in the short term. Doesn't seem likely in the short term or long term for that matter. Yeah, it's it's hard to hard to say, but right now natural gas is what we have available. Um, and we seem to have, by various estimates, well over 100 years of it left. I mean, those constantly change as technology changes, you have you're able to access more gas in in places that you never could before. Um, you know, I've heard there were predictions back in 1980 that we should have run out of natural gas about 10 years ago at the at the latest. So uh, but yeah, I mean that there's really not another viable option to pre that would produce the needed electrons that are at least being forecasted at this time. Again, who's to say what technology may bring us six months or six years down the road, and perhaps they'll come up with a more energy efficient means of of operating these data centers, and maybe it won't require as much electricity uh as we thought, but then maybe that'll result in them building even more data centers. I I don't know. It's it's just hard to predict. Cars today get much, you know, cars today get much better mileage than they did in the early 1970s, but we also drive more and have more cars on the road. So uh who who who could really predict that far into the future? Certainly not me.

Doug Jenkins 29:22

So so for for people who want to keep tabs on what's happening in the energy industry from gas to electricity, whatever the case may be, what are some resources that you would point them to? Because there is no shortage of quote unquote information out there, but where would you point people toward?

Best Energy Data Source And Ohio Edge

Speaker 29:40

I think the single best site, uh uh nonpartisan site is um the EIA Energy Information Uh Administration. It's very easy to look. If you are into charts and graphs and we're an economics major, you will be uh you'll be you'll be in heaven. There's a lot of charts and graphs, but just be very careful when you get into this and anything else when it comes to statistics and charts and graphs. You have to look at things from many different angles to get a full big picture. Otherwise, it's very easy to get manipulated uh or just to um uh sort of justify our our own uh you know our own biases. Um I but I I highly recommend the EIA and you can get on there, they have tons of charts and graphs and studies. Um, and that's not really uh it's not a partisan thing. It is just there's just a lot of good information there. And once again, if you go back and look at a lot of their predictions, go back five, ten, twenty years, they weren't right about everything. I don't claim that they are, but they they certainly will provide with a lot of current data as far as what is happening right now in the United States and and globally. Uh, but I guess I would just close by saying Ohio is actually in a really good position geographically speaking because the eastern part of the state were producing, you know, we went from producing a volume of natural gas equal to maybe about 10% of as much volume of natural gas as we used just 15 years ago. Now we produce a volume of natural gas that's darn near double what we use. Of course, we use more than we did 15 years ago. Um, West Virginia and Pennsylvania, same thing. They produce a massive quantity of it. And so, like anything else, it's better to be close to the source than further away. And you know, the further away you are, the longer the distance is to transport it, even in a pipeline. Ideally, you want to be as close as possible to the source, and that gives us a huge competitive advantage here in Ohio. It also, nationwide, frankly, the fact that that our natural gas is so much cheaper than almost anywhere else on the planet um gives it gives the nation a uh competitive advantage. So hopefully, once the geopolitical situation uh we're currently in gets settled one way or the other, and the oil markets get back to something a bit more normal, uh, you know, uh again, we will have a competitive advantage both on the price of our oil and especially on our natural gas. And I think that's a good place to be in.

Doug Jenkins 32:29

Well, Jimmy, we appreciate your time today. Thanks for hopping on the podcast with us.

Key Takeaways And Chamber Invitation

Speaker 32:33

Oh, thank you so much for having me. Sincerely appreciate uh the opportunity and always happy to come up to Northwest Ohio if you have any uh speaking engagements. I'm happy to meet with anyone you'd like.

Doug Jenkins 32:44

A few points to review before we wrap things up for this episode. Uh, the thing that really stands out to me, Ohio having a real competitive advantage here when it comes to natural gas. Uh, when Jimmy mentioned the closer you are to the source of it, the more reliable your prices are going to be, the more stable things are going to be for you. Uh, that's certainly something that bodes well for Ohio businesses. And a lot of what we hear in the news when it comes to energy, a lot of times has to do with national, even global policy. Certainly, you've been following current events, you know that's a fact. But a lot of times it's decisions at the state level and even the local level that can matter more than people think. So it's always important to pay attention to those. Certainly we do that here at the Chamber of Commerce as well. The takeaways it's not really about picking sides, it's just understanding how the system works and where natural gas fits into the whole energy equation. Hopefully you have a little bit better understanding of that after today. Well, that'll do it for another edition of Chamber Amplified. It's a free podcast available to the community, made possible by the investment of our members here at the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce. If you're looking at ways to get your business involved in the community, a lot of times a chamber membership is the best place to start. And if you'd like to learn more, just send me an email, Djankins at Findlay Hancock Chamber.com, and we can talk about how an investment in the chamber not only helps your business, but the business community as a whole. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time on Chamber Amplified from the Findlay Hancock County Chamber of Commerce.