The Asia Climate Finance Podcast

Ep83 Is ESG a Western Trend? Navigating Sustainability in Asia with Nana Li

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Our guest is Nana Li, a stewardship expert who's just written a handbook on navigating sustainability across Asia Pacific. She walks us through why the money decisions happening in Asia actually shape global sustainability, not the other way around.

We explore how China's state-led approach and Japan's demographic crisis are forcing real innovation in automation and energy transition. You'll get insights into why "guanxi" and energy security matter more than most Western playbooks suggest.

If you're working, or are interested, in Asia's climate finance space, there's genuine value here. We clear up the confusion between ESG risk management and impact investing, and why that distinction actually matters when economic growth is the priority. It's a practical and grounded conversation.

REF: Navigating Sustainability in Asia: A Practical Guide for Leaders and Investors

ABOUT NANA: Nana Li, CFA, is a sustainability and stewardship specialist focused on Asia-Pacific. She advises investors, companies and policymakers on governance, climate and transition strategies, and is an active contributor to global policy and standard-setting initiatives. Nana is a frequent speaker at international conferences and industry forums organised by financial institutions, multilateral organisations and market bodies, and she is regularly invited to contribute to discussions on corporate governance, stewardship and sustainability. In 2024, Nana co-authored Unlocking Corporate Success by the Power of Diversity, the first book to examine gender diversity in Japan from an investor perspective. She is also the author of Navigating Sustainability in Asia: A Practical Guide for Corporate Leaders and Investors, which provides an applied and region-specific perspective on sustainability, governance and stewardship across Asia-Pacific. In 2025, Nana was awarded the International Corporate Governance Network (ICGN) Excellence in Stewardship Award (the first Asian recipient), recognising her leadership and contributions to stewardship and policy advocacy in Asia.

HOST, PRODUCTION, ARTWORK: Joseph Jacobelli  |  MUSIC: Ep76 onward excerpts from Vivaldi’s La Follia, played by Luca Jacobelli.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: THIS AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED TRANSCRIPT IS PROVIDED FOR CONVENIENCE ONLY AND IS NOT THE OFFICIAL OR COMPLETE RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS. THE ORIGINAL AUDIO/VIDEO RECORDING REMAINS THE SOLE AUTHORITATIVE RECORD, AND NO RELIANCE SHOULD BE PLACED ON THIS TRANSCRIPT FOR ANY LEGAL, EVIDENTIARY, OR DECISION-MAKING PURPOSES.

 Ep83 Is ESG a Western Trend? Navigating Sustainability in Asia with Nana Li

[00:00:00] Narrator: Welcome to Asia Climate Finance, your front row seat to the policies, investments, and actors shaping climate, business and finance across Asia Pacific. Subscribe now so others find this essential guide to Asia's climate economy and note the disclaimers at the end. Now over to the host, analyst, investor, and author Joseph Jacobelli.

[00:00:23] Joseph Jacobelli: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you may be listening from. Welcome to Asia Climate Finance. Today we're talking about something that matters way more than most people actually realise. Asia gets sidelined in global sustainability conversations, right? But here's the thing: the money decisions happening across the region are absolutely shaping how the world tackles climate and sustainability standards or responsible investing, and we're not following some Western playbook.

Today we've got Nana Li on the show. She made the jump from finance into becoming an expert in stewardship and engagement, and she's just written this really brilliant handbook on navigating sustainability across Asia. We're tackling the myth that sustainability frameworks are just some Western trends that doesn't fit here. It doesn't, and that's actually the interesting bit. We're getting into how cultural concepts like Guanxi and face saving completely reshape sustainability negotiations in Greater China. Then there's Japan. Japan's demographic crisis is forcing companies to get generally creative with automation. And we clear up this whole confusion between ESG and impact investing with a way that actually makes sense.

The real story here? Asia isn't importing Western politics. It's carving out its own pragmatic path, and that's where the real opportunity sits if you know where to look. Anyway, I believe you will get a great deal out of the chat. As always, if you've got thoughts or questions, please just ping us on the email at the top of the show notes. Enjoy the show. Hi Nana. How are you today?

[00:02:09] Nana Li: I'm good. Thank you.

[00:02:10] Joseph Jacobelli: Great. Well, where am I finding you now? Whereabouts, are you?

[00:02:14] Nana Li: Well, I'm in China at the moment.

[00:02:16] Joseph Jacobelli: Oh, great, great. Yeah. I know you travel quite a bit. Thank you so much for making the time for the Asia Climate Finance Podcast. We are really, really happy to have you.

[00:02:30] Nana Li: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:31] Joseph Jacobelli: So, just to kick off, I'd love to hear a little bit maybe about your own personal journey, Nana. What was it that first sparked your interest in sustainability and how did you find yourself right at the heart of climate business and climate finance?

[00:02:52] Nana Li: Yeah, so I was a straight finance student. I studied finance in my undergraduate and postgraduate and I never thought I was going to do sustainability related work. But then when I started looking for a job, my first job was to do research analyst for a governance related research house. So that's where I started to have a little bit of interactions with the sustainability world. Then I was in that role for about 10 years, and I had a very close observation of how different capital markets work in Asia. And then I joined Impax four years ago. So I moved into a broader sustainability world through stewardship, engagement, and policy work. During the process, I realised there is actually a lot between the global frameworks and how we do things in Asia for the capital markets as well as for the corporates. So I think I had this realisation that capital allocation decisions in Asia would actually shape how global sustainability works. And I decided to do something, try to fix that gap.

[00:04:10] Joseph Jacobelli: Well, that's great because as we discussed before, it is a subject very, very close to my heart. And I think a lot of global conversations on sustainability actually kind of forget about Asia or at least make Asia less important than other continents. So couple of things I wanted to say before I get into the core conversation. One is that today you are only representing yourself. You're here on a personal basis and you're not representing your company. And the second thing I wanted to say, which is probably the most important thing, is about your book. So first, can you tell us a little bit about the book, which literally just came out on the 8th of April? So just a little bit of background on how you got the idea for the book.

[00:05:00] Nana Li: Yeah, sure. Thank you so much. So yeah, the book just came out on the 8th of April, and it was a project in the making for the last three years. And I was lucky enough to be found by this publisher in New York called Business Expert Press. The idea is to make a handbook-ish book for people who don't really know too much about Asia or sustainability or the combination of it. To give them like a manual to look at to get some understanding about the region. So I thought that was something I was able to do and I think it's also something that's lacking in the market. So, three and a half years ago we had this agreement, and I basically started writing one year later and kept writing for about the next two years. Then yeah, then come to this point.

[00:05:56] Joseph Jacobelli: Oh, that's great. From my own personal perspective, I think it sounds easier than it actually is because the situation in Asia differs greatly from places like Japan to China to other places. So, it is quite a complex topic, more complex than meets the eye. So the book, which will have a link in the show notes, is called Navigating Sustainability in Asia: A Practical Guide for Leaders and Investors. So if I can get into some questions regarding some of the topics in the book. And I mean, again, the book is very rich with information, so I'm only going to cut it down to five or six areas. So in the book you mentioned that some folks still see ESG as a bit of a Western trend that doesn't quite fit the ASEAN context. Why do you think that myth is so persistent, that perception is so persistent, and how do you talk around those sceptics who worry that focusing on sustainability means leaving money on the table?

[00:07:01] Nana Li: So that's two questions. One is some of the fallacies I think around the sustainability topics in Asia. As we know, the frameworks are mostly originated in the EU, and it's widely held in EU and US markets. Mostly written in English at the beginning and the markets in the EU and the US have very different political narratives compared to Asia. So some of the standards, some of the guidelines may not be very applicable to Asian markets. I think it's also in terms of sustainability coming from the origin that actually in Asia, the focus has always been very much on economic and strategic. In my view, it's much less about ideological than people like to think. So some of the topics that people would be most interested in Asia—by people, I mean the state or the regional governments or regulators—is like energy security, industrial policy or their competitiveness against other markets. So those are the main drivers why they developed this in the first place. And I think it's for most parts of it, I think it's very different incentives from the government compared to some of the Western markets. And the second question about leaving money on the table. Yeah, I think it's a very long-standing misconception around sustainability business. Most people think it's about doing good and there will be some sacrifice on the return. But from my perspective, it's always about pricing risks and managing your risks and finding opportunities from this trend, from this transition. And in Asia, I think sustainability is so much more about variability. It's about energy security, food security, competitiveness, and long-term growth of the individual markets rather than as any like civilisation related ideas. So I think it's very different conceptions between Asia and the rest of the markets.

[00:09:15] Joseph Jacobelli: Got it. Yeah, I 100% agree. When we look at China and maybe we can talk a little bit about China plus kind of the other territories, including Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau. You talk a lot about the importance of Guanxi, or deep personal relationships. For a professional moving into that market, I mean to the China market, how does that culture focus on trust and face saving actually change the way sustainability goals are negotiated compared to what we might see in Europe or the US?

[00:09:53] Nana Li: Yeah, I think I mostly mean trust, credibility and long-term relationships. I have to say all these things are also very important in Western markets. Any human interactive occasions, I think all these are the foundation of any long-term relationships. Very true. It's just about how you develop to that point. So I think in the book I mentioned a little bit about leadership difference and communication style difference. So in the Western approach, it is sometimes more direct and confrontational. The market is relatively speaking mature, so people are used to taking business to just talk about business. However, in some parts of Asia, for example, China, people prefer a more indirect approach and maybe more interactive, more relationship-based. The idea of face saving is a very conservative way of communicating things. So you have to understand how—I mean, I think the goal is the same, but it's just how you develop to that point. So you have to understand what's the best way that works in this particular market. What the implication for practice is, for example, engagement is going to take you longer, so you have to be more patient. When you have a goal, you have to understand it doesn't move bit by bit sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't move for some time. And you have to accept that and keep pushing. And the other thing is progress maybe lies visible but it's still real. It's maybe not so much on the table, but you will be able to see it if you're making it work privately. So, I think, for example, in China, how you engage can matter just as much as what you ask for. I think what we ask for is pretty much common across the table for all the investors and also shareholders, but how you achieve that point, how do you leverage and also how do you navigate this subtle setup of human relationship is something I think I'm trying to help people to understand.

[00:12:11] Joseph Jacobelli: Mm-hmm. Japan is often seen as quite a unique, even an enigmatic market. You've highlighted a massive demographic challenge in the ageing population. Now, how is that shrinking workforce actually forcing Japanese firms to get more creative with things like automation and social sustainability, for example?

[00:12:33] Nana Li: Yes. So Japan is one example of a very serious ageing population, and you have almost similar situations in Korea and in China, for example. Some parts of China. So what that means, as you mentioned, it's a shrinking workforce. So companies will have to invest in automation and productivity. I think Japanese companies have started doing this actually 20 or 30 years ago, so they're way ahead of the curve. Right, right. And for companies, you also need to rethink about how you manage your capital. And I think this whole situation with an ageing population is actually forcing the government and also companies to redesign how they count productivity. So for example, some companies are starting to use older workers. They keep pushing the retirement age for some markets, and the other one is also hire more women because they were not very actively participating in all the full-time roles and senior roles in the past, which is still not the case, but you have to start using them because otherwise you don't have anyone else left to hire. Right. So I think to some extent in Japan, social sustainability is not all bad for the current workforce. It's actually just how do you value the current population and make the best use of them, and for women and for also some minority groups. I think it's actually good news that the companies and the governments are now forced to consider them as a productive workforce.

[00:14:16] Joseph Jacobelli: So moving on to a slightly different topic. We've seen a fair bit of, let's call it political pushback against ESG in the US recently. Do you reckon that's going to ripple across to Asia, or is the region essentially carving out its own path regardless of what's happening in Washington?

[00:14:41] Nana Li: I think first of all, the pushback in the States has happened almost two years from now. And I think any effect it would have had on Asia, or the industry should have already happened. And from my observation, at least the debate in the US is very politicised. It is almost as soon as the current administration was in place and the whole trend changed. So that kind of politicised debate is not anywhere in Asia at the moment, at least as I mentioned before. So Asia is always more pragmatic and more state-influenced. So this whole sustainability trend, which started from the idea of green finance or green transition, was very government-driven top-down at the beginning and they just kept going on with this. So I think the likely outcome is Asia is continuing its own path on the transition with industrial policy and also enhancing competitiveness. Given all the geopolitics and also all the things other markets are doing, governments can have a different idea of how you develop that. But I think the bottom line is Asia is going to have its own path and it is less likely to import the politics of the ESG from the US, and more focus on the economics of the transition.

[00:16:17] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, I guess I can add two points. I'm not sure if you agree. One is agreeing with your point that actually it's not—I mean everybody talks about when Trump was elected in the start of his administration in January 2025, but actually during the last two years of the Biden administration, we already saw quite a lot of pushback against ESG and some of the companies and financial institutions in the US pulling out some of their KPIs or at least downgrading some of the KPIs. And the other thing, I think the point that I'm making in my new book as well, is the economics is really taking over the call it the idealism or the policy agenda. At the end of the day, if it makes economic sense, why not do it? So I think that's one point which a lot of people are kind of missing. Talking about something a little bit more practical and the economic drivers, you use a great analogy about buying an electric car versus planting trees to explain the difference between ESG and impact investing. To our listeners who are not necessarily specialists, how do you help them tell the two apart without getting completely bogged down in the jargons?

[00:17:37] Nana Li: I for one am not a big fan of jargons, so I do know that we have lots of jargons in this field and lots of acronyms.

[00:17:43] Joseph Jacobelli: Me too. Yes, me too.

[00:17:46] Nana Li: Yeah. And lots of acronyms, but I mean, it is easier for you to talk to other people, but there are so many that sometimes it's very confusing. I always try to explain things as simply as possible to other people. So, yeah, so that's one analogy I used. I think there is a little bit of confusion around what is ESG investment versus what is impact investing. To this point, I think still a lot of people don't really know the difference and use them interchangeably, I think.

[00:18:21] Joseph Jacobelli: Right?

[00:18:22] Nana Li: So, I think one of the things is that ESG from my understanding is more about managing risks and improving your investment performance. So in terms of the analogy, if you are talking about buying a car, it's possibly that you're buying a more efficient car, either it is fuel or electric. Impact investing is very different from the beginning. You are trying to create measurable outcomes. So it's less about returns, it's more about the outcome. The impact outcome is your return. It is the KPI. So it's very different measurements, and like planting trees is one example. I think why people are confused is because sometimes you are, for example, buying an electric car because you want a more efficient car, but some people would buy an EV because you want to make good environmental outcomes, right? So you are doing the same thing, but the incentives are very different. But at the end of the day, because your incentives are different, the measurement you will be using to measure your success is going to be very different. So that's why you can tell if this is like an ESG integrated investment or impact investing. So I think ESG is more about how you invest and impact investing is about what you aim to achieve.

[00:19:44] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, right, right. Yeah. In the question, I used the word hybrid car, so that was my mistake. So I meant EVs. But that's a great point because if you remember five or ten years ago when people were buying EVs, they were at a very significant premium to ICE cars and a lot of people just did it because they wanted something good for the environment, et cetera. Today, the prices—at least I know in China they're very, very cheap, but in other places like Europe it's just a small premium, sometimes as small as five or ten per cent. So it makes a lot of economic sense. But now, especially because of the Iran situation and oil prices going through the roof, in some European countries last month, EV sales rose by fifty to eighty per cent. So it's just incredible. Right? So the incentive is completely different. Cool. Going back to China for one moment, between the state-led approach in China and the more kind of consensus-driven style in Japan, it sounds like a bit of a minefield for the average investor. What's the biggest red flag you've come across when foreign firms try to navigate these different sets of rules for the first time?

[00:21:03] Nana Li: Well, there are many mistakes you can make, but I think one I have observed is to misunderstand the power structure of a company or of a market. Oftentimes in China or in Japan, things could be perfect on paper. And if you're only focusing on the formal disclosures or formal governance structures, you will mistake that for full compliance as for best performers. In reality, influence actually sits sometimes with controlling shareholders, the state, or even some informal appointment. And you never know before you talk to the party or talk to the people. So that could give you an illusion that things are working perfectly. And it is not easy, especially when there is like dispute happening or some struggle in the market. When you've realised actually as a shareholder you don't have much right to talk to the company or to influence. That's something I would suggest people to do more is engage with the company but just don't really focus on all the paperwork.

[00:22:22] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, the guidelines and the policies, not paper. You've described the journey to sustainability as a marathon and not a sprint. Which again, is something I completely agree with. It's kind of evolutionary and it's a long-term thing. In your view, what are the quick wins we're seeing right now in the Asia Pacific region and which parts of the transition—I don't know, like biodiversity or labour rights or other—are going to be the real long-term slog?

[00:22:55] Nana Li: I think some quick wins, as you mentioned, and I think we can already see, is like renewable energy scaling because some markets like China do have the leading advantage and also the space to develop it. And electrification. So like EVs et cetera, much more electric than carbon burning, I think is also happening at the industrial level at many different markets. And also the operational efficiency improvement is also something happening actually since maybe ten or fifteen years ago. So this already happened and is an ongoing trend. I think some long-term challenges I would say are like biodiversity, supply chains which had a very big disruption during the COVID period and also during the last few years around the geopolitical changes. A lot of redesign and restructuring is still happening for many different firms. And also labour rights, labour standards are also something that we have only just started to look at. So I think this is going to take longer. And I think it's also because it's much easier to measure carbon emissions than social or nature-related movements. And also carbon is where I think Asia is making the fastest progress. Nature and social issues are where the real complexity lies.

[00:24:25] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, and again, what I tell people always is, being a financial analyst, don't look at the quarterly results. Look at the long-term trends. If you look where we were like five years ago, where we are now, then it's pretty clear. Or at least we've got a pretty good trajectory where we're going to be five years from now. But if you just look at one single event over a month, for example, the Iran war, I don't think you can get the full picture of the transition and the evolution of the transition.

[00:24:58] Nana Li: Yes.

[00:24:58] Joseph Jacobelli: Go ahead.

[00:24:59] Nana Li: Sorry. Just to your point, I totally agree, but to their defence: if your clients are using a quarterly performance like KPIs to measure your work, then your horizon has to be limited. You don't have the bandwidth to think about the long term. And that is the case for many developing markets, including China, including Korea, because many of these markets are still very retail-driven. So for them to survive in their career in the industry, they have to go along with the market trend. So it takes a higher-level decision maker to basically foster this change in the market. And this can take a long time to change the mindset of people and to change the culture of the market. So that's the struggle. I think that's why it's so difficult.

[00:25:53] Joseph Jacobelli: Absolutely. I think there's a divergence there, right? Because if you look at it from a direct investor perspective, like you're investing in an EV manufacturing plant or a solar utility-scale farm, then you've got one perspective. If you are investing in bonds, you can afford to have another perspective. But if you invest in equities, then I think it's really where the major struggle is going to happen. I don't know if you agree, because that's where you see the biggest volatility from a kind of short-term news, which could drive down the share price of a company by ten or twenty per cent, right?

[00:26:30] Nana Li: Yeah. And it's very volatile. I mean, as we see, the global market is all volatile.

[00:26:36] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, right, right. Yeah. So for my single family office, we mostly invest in bonds, although by training I was an equity analyst. So it's a little bit conflicting. But one of the reasons is because for me to take some impact investing positions, it's easier. And I'm a family office so I can multi-asset, so I can afford to do that. It's not a mutual fund or anything like that. So it's a little bit easier because you can take longer-term views. You can pick up a company, for example, which now has got a little bit of fossil fuel exposure, but has got a very good transition plan on board that they've already approved and they're executing on. So I can kind of take a bet on that particular company from the bond perspective, from the fixed income perspective, but if it was from the equity perspective, it would be a lot more difficult. Yeah. I think it's a really interesting conversation. We should have a podcast just about that. It's a very complex and very interesting conversation. Nana, I wanted to ask you a couple of last questions. One is kind of your long term—is related to the long-term outlook. Looking at the big picture, if we were to check back in ten years' time, or even twenty years' time from now, or we could just set the date in 2050 for example, where do you see Asia sitting in the global sustainability rankings? Is the region set to be the global leader or are there still too many hurdles in the way?

[00:28:16] Nana Li: I think there are many hurdles in the way, but I'm going to stay optimistic, and I think Asia is likely to be essential to the global transition. As we discussed, there are lots of strengths in Asia: the scale, the policy direction, the capital. Capital is sometimes stalled in one market, it's difficult to inflow or outflow, but because some of the capital is state-owned, they're also more patient and also more fixed. And there are also challenges as we mentioned about governance issues, diversity issues, right. And also uneven progress among different markets. So I think one of the key points I made in the book was Asia is not going to be a single story. It is going to be the most important region but with different paces for different markets. All these markets together, I think, is going to shape the global sustainability outcomes. But if you want to be very specific, you have to understand different markets on their own trajectory.

[00:29:21] Joseph Jacobelli: No, that's—I absolutely agree. When I was in Hong Kong, I had a few book pre-launch talks. And I guess the hardest question I got was if I were to pick a few countries which I think are going to be moving more quickly than others on the transition front, which one would I pick outside the developed economies, Singapore, Japan, et cetera. And I found that that question is particularly difficult given that, as you pointed out, you've got countries moving at very different paces. If you look at what the Philippines and Vietnam are doing, for example, relative to Indonesia, that's three completely different sets of speeds, right?

[00:30:08] Nana Li: Yeah.

[00:30:09] Joseph Jacobelli: So one kind of final question, which is the light question or the easiest question: are there any particular works, whether it's books, films, research, or even podcasts, that you think people should read, watch, or pay attention to right now?

[00:30:29] Nana Li: Yeah. I have to mention your upcoming book, Powering the Unstoppable Green Shift, coming out on the 15th of April.

[00:30:37] Joseph Jacobelli: Thank you. That's a great recommendation, but I already read it. No, actually I wrote it. Just kidding.

[00:30:46] Nana Li: No, I'll look forward to reading it.

[00:30:48] Joseph Jacobelli: That's great. And do you have any other kind of books, films, research or podcasts that you would recommend to listeners?

[00:30:58] Nana Li: Yeah, I think now we are actually in a very good position to think about what to read. I started this about fifteen years ago and I was trying to find anything that I could read. There was nothing online. I mean, now every day there's a new report on sustainability or ESG, maybe not related only to Asia, but still there are good references everywhere and there are lots of reports from different institutions. So yeah, I think all the credible ones like CFA, like ICGN, ACGA—all these longstanding organisations—they produce a lot of good reports. And there are also actually a lot of policies and consultations coming from different regulators. So that would be also something to give you a sense of how things are developing. Some global ones like ISSB; they still develop regional-based or industrial-based policies or guidelines. And if that's the market or that's the region or sector that you are interested in, that gives you a very good understanding of how things are developing and what's the goal for the market or for the sector in the next maybe five or ten years. And I actually mentioned a few credible sources in the book as well, some websites and some organisations that are worth checking out. And in terms of podcasts, yeah, of course, obviously this one, the Asia Climate Finance, and I think there's also quite a lot of other podcasts going on. I think the key is news as well—articles, news, features. I would encourage people to read beyond the headlines and to focus on how sustainability is actually being implemented on the ground from all these stories. Not to be steered away by the headline or just focusing on the surface. If you look beyond it, you will see very interesting facts actually for many parts of it.

[00:33:10] Joseph Jacobelli: That's a very, very good point. Especially I found, when I'm spending a couple of months in Asia, that one of biggest areas is China versus Europe. I mean, I'm not American, so I can't speak for the US, but there seem to be a lot of misunderstandings in China about what's going on in Europe and an enormous number of misunderstandings in Europe of what's going on with China. And again, that's due to people just focusing on the headlines as opposed to looking at the nitty-gritties, one of the many kinds of fallacies.

[00:33:48] Nana Li: What's the biggest misunderstanding?

[00:33:50] Joseph Jacobelli: Well, that could be another podcast. One specific to clean energy is there's this idea in Europe that the reason why EVs in China are so cheap is because the Chinese government just puts in billions of dollars into the industries. And so it's basically a highly subsidised product which is then exported. But for anybody who looks under—well, actually just anybody who reads more details about it will know that, yeah, I mean, there are some subsidies in the auto industry in China, just like there are subsidies in the auto industry in the US or subsidies in the auto industry in Europe. But the biggest difference, of course, is that there is an enormous amount of competition. Isn't it something like 110 brands of EVs in China, when you probably only need five? So the competition is actually almost a murderous kind of competition. And that's why—so that's one of the kinds of high-level misunderstandings. But of course there are many others when it comes to the transition, like, "Oh, China is still building coal fired power plants." So China's not serious about decarbonisation. Those kinds of things, right? So I think there are a lot of things, like you said, if you read beyond the headlines, get some authoritative sources, then you can really get a real picture of what's going on.

[00:35:14] Nana Li: Yeah, I think for the EV thing, just very quickly, I think that was the case for maybe the first one or two years, but the government has stopped doing that very quickly. And there's also another thing: at first, I think they controlled the licence, so it was very difficult for you to get a licence for an oil car. But again, I don't think that's the case anymore. I think recently I read they're actually trying to ask car makers to raise the price because, as you mentioned, there's fierce competition and “involution” is the word they use. So they're trying to stop all this and asking for companies to stop the price war.

[00:35:51] Joseph Jacobelli: Right, right, right. So that means, Nana, that you and me have a lot of work to do to help people and guide people to a better understanding of what's going on in Asia and in the future of transitioning in the region. Well, listen, I want to really thank you for your time again. I know you're travelling quite a bit this month and last month. I really appreciate you participating in the Asia Climate Finance Podcast. And again, I urge everybody to have a look at the book, Navigating Sustainability in Asia: A Practical Guide for Leaders and Investors by Nana Li, and we've got the link to the book in the show notes. So once again, Nana, thank you so much for your time.

[00:36:32] Nana Li: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

[00:36:34] Narrator: Please note that the Asia Climate Finance Podcast is provided for educational purposes only and does not constitute investment advice. Any information discussed should not be relied upon for making investment decisions. Listeners should always seek advice from a suitably qualified and authorised investment professional. The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of their current or former employers or of the podcast host or producers.


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Joseph Jacobelli

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Nana Li

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