242. The Big Summer 40k Reveals : Starter Sets, Orks, Necromunda Skimish, Exodites

Phil is joined by Richie as they discuss all the 40k related reveals from the Big Summer preview, and as a bonus they also discuss the new Outrider minis too. Keep an eye out for a bonus episode of Transitional Noise coming soon!

Watch along on YouTube: https://youtu.be/V1CB94Bx77Y

Transcript

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Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hello everyone, it's episode two hundred and forty-two of the looking up for the podcast. It's the pandemic episode two forty two. Isn't that exciting? So, as usual, the podcast, we're gonna start off with a little intro, then we're gonna have the main segment. And if you're new to this, that'll also be a cheeky little outro where I just waffle along about a few random things and some hobby talk. And if you're watching on YouTube, you'll probably know what the episode is all about because it'll be given away in the thumbnail. But if you're listening along and you haven't read the title for some reason, uh reveal now what we're talking about. It is the Big Summer Reveals from Games Workshop. They've done a big content drop of all the things that we're going to be seeing in the future. I'm going to be going through it, giving my opinion on it. I think this episode it's going to be just me on my own, unless Richie gets back to me any second, in which case he may join me, but otherwise it's just going to be me on my own. What is there in this reveal show? There's new Necromunda, there's uh some very interesting Warheimer 40k things and uh 40k starter sets and lots more. Just before we get on with the show, I'll just say this as I always do. If you're listening along, but you'd like to watch along, because we've been doing this this year in a video format, you can join us on the Lookout Sur channel over on YouTube so you can see the reveals as I'm talking through them. That's almost the best way of enjoying this show. But you can also listen along and I'll try and describe uh what I'm looking at. Or you can, you know, if if you're listening along, you can go to the Warhammer Community Articles and look at the same time, which is a bit odd, because if you're doing that, you might as well just watch on YouTube, I would say. But I appreciate lots of people like to listen to me uh while you're on your drives to work, while you're walking your kids, walking your dogs, whatever whatever it might be. So enjoy the show. Let's do a traditional transitional noise.

Starter Sets / Terrain

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I am in fact joined by Richie. Hello, Richie, how's it going?

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Hello, Vil. I'm doing very good, thank you. I'm glad to be back.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Glad you made it in the nick of time uh to record, which is good. Uh so yeah, we're gonna start off with the 40k stuff and probably include the uh heresy and necromonda as part of that sci-fi universe and kill team uh do all of that. And then towards the end, if there's time, we'll be doing that AOS and fantasy stuff as well. And then there's some other bits as well, like the Academy. That'll, if it appears, will be at the very end. So yeah, let's get on with the very first thing that they revealed, which was the starter sets and the pre-painted terrain. So, as I suspected, the Games Workshop didn't want to reveal to us when they were talking about the Armageddon box set the starter sets, because these are probably more interesting than the Armageddon box. And these feel like they're potentially price-wise, good value deals. So you're getting the core rules, you're getting another book. Let's see if they say what that is. Is it just the combat patrol game book? But you're also getting uh a whole bunch of terrain and some of the Armageddon box set, uh, but not the full set. So you're getting five man squads rather than ten for the most part. Uh this feels like a pretty cool box set, and depending on price, maybe more worthwhile than the Armageddon box set, in my opinion. Because obviously you're not getting the cards and the card decks and chapter approved. But you're getting terrain, which is fundamental. And this isn't the pre-painted terrain, this is just the standard terrain. What are your thoughts on this uh box set, Richie?

SPEAKER_04 3:54

I think it's awesome. I'm just I was gonna try and see if I could find other because I I felt there was dice in this one.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

No, there's a there's a another starter set later on which has dice and a tape measure in. So yes, this isn't a a true starter set for someone that doesn't own anything, but there's like a very beginner kid friendly version which has dice um and tape measures in.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

I off the off the back, off the off just like just looking at it off the bat, I think this is way more compelling than the Armageddon box because it's got some cool terrain in there. It's like you I I mean it it's it it serves a different purpose. That has to be said. It does it does serve a different purpose, but you get most of the minis from Armageddon that you get terrain, and I thought you I thought you I've for some reason I thought that I'd ordered this one as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

It hasn't sort of uh explicitly oh no, it does. So you get core rules, 15 pieces of unplainted train, a double-sided gaming board. Oh, you do get ranger orders and the dice. I feel that's not the image we had. Start a guidebook to ease you into the game. So yeah, uh obviously it's not got the big sort of law book that came in Armageddon, and in a way that was one of the reasons why I wanted to buy that uh alone just for that, which is stupid to be honest. But this is uh, as you say, a much more compelling option because while it's nice to have 10-man squads of certain things, especially when you know a lot of the things like the intercessors and the vanguard vets are going to be coming in multi-part kits later on, you could logistically or logically say, well, actually, I'll just get these and I've got a five-man squad, then I can get a 10-manned proper kit later on and sort of mix them, uh mix them in later on if I wanted to. Yeah, you don't get the standard bearer guy. Uh so that's the only I think character from the space marine half that you're missing. Oh, and the jump pack chaplain, I don't think you're getting either.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

No, you don't get the big boss or the Dakarig.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah, I mean but I still feel like that's worthwhile though, for because of the train, basically.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

I mean, I think I saw I saw people complaining that the Armageddon box like wasn't good for like new players, and it and it wasn't. I it completely wasn't, and I don't think it's ever intended to be. It's like here's a whole bunch of new minis we've put in this box.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

And I mean it was and it was it was it was very cool, but you literally couldn't form it. There were too many characters, then there were units. You can't actually attach all the characters to all the units you've got in the Armageddon box. But that was like it's like here's all a bunch of new stuff that you can get in one game, and it was very cool. But this is an actual starter box, it's still pretty big, that's gonna take you a while to assemble. But if you're like wanting to play a game of 40k, um this has got all you need in that's got the mats, it's got the dice, it's got the it's got the rulers, it's got everything. It's I think it's great. I think it's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Because I guess you can, and we'll get to it when we scroll down, but I think you could potentially add the other combat patrol like box to this, so then you would have a complete set of terrain for 40k because this is effectively one half of the 40k table that you need. And so you could do it that way to to bulk out your force. This one does a very compelling, it'd be interesting to see how how well it's priced, basically. Kind of curious what that kind of intro booklet would be. That'd be interesting to see as well. Uh, but it's the sort of thing that we never know basically because we won't get our hands on it.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

The only thing I kind of don't say the only thing I kind of don't like about it, and I can I can see why they've done it, is that I don't like the artwork of the box.

SPEAKER_05 7:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Uh uh what verse half and half? Well, it's not half and half. The front of the box front of the box is is it's got the space moon with his bolter. Yeah. And then it's got all and it's got a picture of all the minis. Yeah. And so I can see why they've done that. So it's like a look what you're getting in this box. But I would have preferred I I just remember the boxes of old, we had this awesome piece of artwork on there. And the artwork that's on the front of the book that's in here. Um if you're which if you're watching the video version, you can see it in the middle. It's got the the ultramarines on the left. Boo uh should be blood angels. Interesting now, they have completely the blood angels are gone. Blood angels are dead now, we don't care about them anymore. It's just blood angels. So it's just ultra marines.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

That was a token nod to the second ed box specifically, and then they've defaulted everything back to ultramarines because that's the the store poster boys that they promote in everything. And that they you sort of knew that was happening when they said, Oh, there's a variant cover of the core rules on general release, and that is just de facto Ultramarines, which is a bit of a shame, but I sort of understand it because imagine you're a small child going into the shop, you'll be like, Oh, who are these red ones that are in on this new starter box set? But then everything else, they're blue, uh, and on all the other branding, they're blue. Maybe that would be a bit confusing.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

I was saying you I was just double-checking, yeah, it is uh it is blood angels on the core boards, the Armageddon. The Armageddon, I mean the Armageddon box. One of the takeaways I had from it from when they did all the mini reveals, it was well, it did feel not I don't say nostalgia play, but it it made me feel nostalgic to the good for the older editions, especially second edition. And they definitely carried that through. Whereas this is business as usual, 140,000 as pro as an introductory product for player for new players. So I'm I'm sorry, this one doesn't have a cool piece of epic artwork on the cover, but then Armageddon was that function.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, fair. And I think I remember as a kid, all the boxes for the Minchas just had artwork on, and I found those very compelling and sort of inviting to go look at that box and then flip it around to see what the actual models looked like. Because, as you say, the artwork on the cover of the book is yeah, really evocative and compelling, and it's basically how you imagine it in your mind, right? How you think these battles are happening, and it's sort of manifesting that in front of you. Whereas a box of models, just as you're seeing the models, well, that's great from a value proposition, is actually pretty boring. So I have to give it to you there. You are correct. And that was the problem basically with new um underworlds when they did all the artwork for the cards, it was just photos of the minis, and you're like, this isn't exciting at all. I want to see cool epic action happening, not a static image of a model. So yeah, I I guess you've got the artwork of the space marine, but it would maybe be cooler if they included the orc on the other side as well, and then maybe sandwiched uh the model shots in in between, but I can see why that wouldn't work. But yeah, okay, let's let's move on to the others. So then we've got the effectively getting started with space marines. So it's the combat patrol of all the space marine models, a uh space marine kind of getting started guide, and 11 paints. So a little bit more than your standard combat patrol box, and quite useful though, if you just wanted one half of the Armageddon boxer. And my friend Stevie, that I had played a game of spearhead with yesterday, he basically was trying to get hold of just the Space Marine half. So maybe this is something that would appeal to him. There's also an orc version as well. Uh again, 11 paints, orc flavoured, uh, all the orc minis, and uh yeah, an orc sort of starting guide. Yeah, I'd be interested to see how much these cost.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

And the start paintbrush, Phil. There's a s there's a paintbrush as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Ooh, okay, exciting. And you that one paintbrush has to last you for painting, you know, 30 odd models and you know, 11 paints, so best of luck with that. But at least it technically could could do it.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

One thing I'll say is the the website doesn't have the cover the box art for this. That was in the live stream that I've just looked up. I just looked up that because the covers for these boxes are awesome. It's very similar to the the cover of the starter set, but because it's more vertical, it's like two-thirds of the image is the cool space marine artwork, and then some minis. And then or the orc version is like the opposite where it's like the cool big orc, and then some and then you can see the minis behind him. These set, I don't I don't know how much these sets are, but these are awesome.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I mean it a combat patrol set is around what 90 pounds nowadays, so I imagine this would be 100. And considering Armageddon was what 160, so you can sort of see the value proposition of Armageddon in comparison to what this will be priced at, I would assume. I mean, this will still be probably a good deal for getting all of these miniatures than buying them all individually. Uh and that's how Games Workshop always operates. Like it's still expensive, but it's still technically cheaper than if you just bought, you know, one box at a time.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

These are going to be awesome. I really hope they probably won't. I'd love if they did these for other factions as well, but I I doubt it because they're not the only ones.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

As a starting thing, I mean they might do, but I suspect yeah, they won't, because these I can imagine these are the boxes to basically get someone who's never played the game into buying. But maybe these are maybe these are going to be the new combat patrols, right? And they will do this for every army as they release them. But uh yeah, I can't see that happening.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

I don't when basically these are these are half of the these these are the same sets of sprues you get in that big starter set. Yeah. It's basic it's it'll be interesting to see how much the costs work out because if you're if you are a new player or you want to try to get a friend into playing 40k and they'll play with you, so you've already got all the terrain there. But with this is like they'll get a box which has got a bunch of models and all the paints they need. It doesn't I'm I'm I'm it doesn't it says there's 11 paints, I assume one of them is a primer of some kind. But I think it's a fantasti I think it's a fantastic these I think these boxes are fantastic that they that that as a I mean that's five part of me thinking with like a businessy hat hat on of you wanna get started in the hobby and here's everything you need in one box one box, which is which which is what as an individual, not like you have to spend 250 pounds on a huge box and then buy loads of terrain to go with it and the paints. But these boxes, if these boxes are like because there's a lot in these boxes, so they could be quite they could be quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Because almost because of the paints. I mean, if you think about a paint pot is at least a fiver or four quid or something, and there's eleven, that's potentially 50 quid just on paints alone, let alone the all the miniatures. Um but you are right, yeah, as you point out, that it's not the full Armeddon half, it's the getting started box set half of Space Means and Orcs. So you are missing stuff from them from what's in the Armageddon box. But yeah, it'd be yeah, I think all of this is this is all cool, it's all good. The Games Workshop has done this. My one annoyance of Games Workshop is they didn't advertise these prior to the Armageddon box set, so everyone was being funnelled into buying Armageddon, and I think a lot of people might have gone, well, I would have preferred one of these instead. Because you might have gone, I wanted this because I just wanted some space means and a terrain box or something. They got you as the FOMO fill. Well, exactly. That's exactly what they've done. And they normally I try and resist it, but in hindsight, I always end up buying enough of the model line that I might as well just pay the extra and save more money. So yeah, we now have other boxes. So we've got the introductory set, which is the mini version, which is very similar to the getting started kill team that they did with Ultramarines and Death Guard, because that also had sort of this uh cardboard style terrain. So this is very second-ed themed because it is literally cardboard terrain that you pop out and you know one half slots into the other and it makes a little cross shape so it can sort of stand up in its own right. Uh yeah, they did it with a kill team, but that was like printed MDF, uh, had like a sort of paper finish. So that was a bit more sturdy. Uh, but that was almost a bit too high-end for what it is, because it is just aimed at kids, right? So somewhat crappy cardboard uh terrain is good enough for them. And you know, some gamers might be like, this is great cool MDF to just play, or a portable version of 40k. So you get uh was it five space marines, a lieutenant or lieutenant, depending on uh your uh part of the world, you get an orc war boss, and then you get five orcs. But the really interesting thing, well they also say you get uh 12 paints, an introductory book, the folding card terrain, a game mat, and some information to get you started.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

You get dice and well the picture shows you they use the word mat quite free quite quite freely. I'm guessing that is a piece of paper that folds. Yeah, so I think glossy paper.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

The picture shows you the not quite perspex, it's like the transparent, flexible plastic ruler and some dice. The text doesn't mention those, but it and it just but it says all sorts of information to get you started. But I assume because it's in the picture, you get the dice and the the tape measure. But the main interesting thing is the sculpts are all new. So if you're a purist that wants to own every single variant space marine or orc ever, you will want to pick these up. If you're desperate for a new primaris lieutenant, you will want to pick this up. And potentially you might want these for you know more space marines, like just the intercessors. Interesting, I think only one of them is has variant marks. Everyone's in kind of generic primaris armour. The top guy who's the sergeant in red has Mark 7 helmet, but everyone else is in primaris, and there's no variant like chest pieces or leg armour that I can see, unless I'm completely missing something. But they are just you know variant sculpts and they all look quite interesting. Uh Lieutenant, I'm gonna pronounce it differently every time. Lieutenant's in uh on a tactical rock with a plasma pistol and a power sword. He's sort of pointing his sword forwards as if he's an American on a a boat in the Civil War. Or was that the War of Independence? I think it was War of Independence, that picture. But yeah. I mean the the Space Marines are cool. The orcs I think are really interesting. You've actually got a does that actually say what weapons they've got in there? Because you've got the missile launcher, which has got a special name to it, and then you've got a a big shooter, I want to say. It's called a rocket launcher, Phil. Is it just a rocket launcher? If it's spelt with a K. Or is it a custom rocket launcher?

SPEAKER_04 18:46

I'm pretty sure it's just a rocket launcher, because a lot of a boys squad can have the the I mean this is good because it confirms that the boys squad will be when they do finally blend the data sheets together, the new boys will be able to have the rocket launcher.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Oh well, I think they did actually preview them in the live stream, and yeah, the uh number of options that they get is insane in terms of uh how big these data sheets are because of all the options, which is a bit mental. But the the new sculpts look very cool. Do you enjoy the orcs or the space means? And would you be encouraged to want to pick any of these up?

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Of these of these sets, ones we're looking at now?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yeah, just for the alternative sculpts.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Uh not really, because I don't care about the space means at all. Like I I mean, no offense. Now they're blue space moves.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Now they're blue, you don't get it. No, the blue reds.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

No. I mean, I don't really care about those space moons at all. As I've got so many space moons. I I quite like the new I I quite like the new intercessor push-fit in the Armageddon. And if they were some new intercessor kit, um maybe, but I've done so many space moons. I I do I quite I don't if if the the Armageddon intercessors are the last intercessors I ever build, I'm I don't mind. I'm totally fine with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Same. I've I've got enough.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

So with this I'm like, yeah, whatever. The org the the what's interesting about these bo these org boys the org boys half of this is they are new minis, they all do look kind of cool, and I'd be able to add that I mean this this is like an actual big shooter and a and a rocket launcher, which you could which I could put into the new boys squad. But it's a we but I've already got ten boys, so then I've got spare boys running around. So I'd probably need to buy two boxes of these to actually fill out a squad properly. So I'll probably skip this because you can only get them together in this introductory set. So I've never gotten it.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

But at least for now, I I almost wouldn't be surprised. It depends on how they're built. I almost wouldn't be surprised if these end up being like the blind box space marines and orcs or something that they do in the future. Because the Death Guard and Space Marine Kill Team starter set was made up of those, so they might be doing it in reverse order this time. That feels a bit unlikely, you know.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

I I do like the orc with who's got the who's got who's bit the pin out of this grenade. As someone who has filled on the top, yes. Yeah, as someone who's built all of the armaged in orcs, it's nice to see that they can do it with that have the grenade in their right hand rather than their left. They're all doing it the other way around. Uh but I also like the way he's holding the literal gun barrel of his gun with his hand. So he feels no pain this guy because he's burning his hand off in theory.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Assuming he's been firing it recently.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Well, of course he's gonna be firing it recently, feels more Dacker.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

I know, but he might he might just be firing all his grenades. That grenade strat, now it's called explosives. That's what he's he's the boy in charge of that, basically.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Yeah. I do like the I like the big shooter model. I uh I like his guy with a vest he's kind of holding it. The rocket launcher I'm torn on. Um I do I do appreciate the fact that it looks like it looks like something a mech boy has made in his shed. Is it like an of a mad contraption yeah, it's like it's it's of various tubes and wires and valves with a rocket launcher. the end of it, uh, which I kind of like, but I don't re the I don't really like the pose or the smoke coming out of it. I thought it was a bit weird. Why is there smoke coming out of it?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

But it's about to go off, I think. It's like he's just about to activate it or it's in a resting state that's ready to go, maybe. I guess it's leaving it. But he's not even who knows. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

He could still hit with it if he rolls a six. Because that's what's good. That's how they work in the all time. So it's it's a it's it's a cool I like I do like the big shoot model. I will not buy these boxes though. I think they're great for someone who hasn't if you is if you if you are a because I could see this box costing 40 or 50 quid yes or or or less because current the current starter set I believe based on me just going the current introductory set for 40k is 42 pounds uh which has got five marines well like eight um tyranids or like the termigants and then like a a game mats and dice and stuff but also paints which this which these ones don't come with so which doesn't which this doesn't come with so this could be like 40 this could be 30 for this would be 30 quid.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Well I think the kill team starter set is around 40 or 50 I could be wrong or at least from a third party it is that. So I I and that has the sort of MDF style terrain in it.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

So I wouldn't be surprised if it's a comparable price to if you could if you can get the kill team starter set for 30 quid then do it because it's 70 quid off.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Well may I guess it would be but yeah but I think Element Games would have it for 50 maybe or 60 um because they're normally like 10-15 quid off. So yeah that's expensive but that is a similar number of models has terrain in has a mat in it I think so yeah there's also lots of cardboard tokens in it. Yes you you do get lots of extra stuff and as we all know the most expensive thing in a games workshop box is the paper and cardboard. So maybe this would be slightly cheaper especially because the terrain's made of a you know cheap quality material. Yeah I mean I wouldn't pick it up the miniatures are cool but the as you said the incessors don't really appeal I've got enough of them.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

The yeah the lieutenant is oh no it does come with paints film it does come with paints oh it does I'm just looking at the pictures so it has a it it does come with some paints and a brush so I would assume oh at the top you're right yeah it doesn't mean it's done in the actual image so on that basis on that basis it's very it's relative it's pretty similar to the current introductory set which is £42.50. So with inflation maybe it'll be £45 maybe £50.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

This is clearly aimed at people who've heard of Warhammer want to play and it's like a either like a a parent picking up to play with their child and it's probably £4050 quid going to reasonable I mean I don't know how much of a game you can play with one squad aside basically once you merge the leaders into the this could be one of the best ways to play 40k for because I I guarantee you there's no command points and stratagems going on in that game. Oh I mean possibly a kill team game but it's I mean potentially I'm sure you could buy this and run these models in a form of kill team if you if you so chose. Yeah I mean that's let's move on to the next one which is a simple one it's paint sets. So you get a bunch of paints you get a a cutter or clippers as they call it and a mold line scraper which is a bit diddy but they they are useful when you get a starter brush and you get a bunch of paints with it and a wash then there's another version that comes with a couple of space marines and I guess there's another version that comes with a couple of orcs I want a a little grot and a goblin I like these these last two are my what don't you want box sets.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

If you're familiar with that that meme from Hell or High Water film where the waitress is saying what don't you want? You either don't want the Queen beans or you don't want the corn and the gull because these sets are exactly the same it's like in terms of paint so they all they both have a bad and black they both have corex white they both have more and fang brown they both have lead belcher they both have a paintbrush. So they do you so if you want to bring in the paint they're basically the exact same almost the exact same set of paints um but they swap out you get McCard blue and retribute armour or you get Xandry Justin Oric Flesh and then you get the different minis. Yeah uh which as a as a pro as a pro if if as a as a project fine I guess but I don't see it's a curious sex I don't see who it's really for because the minis are kind of there so you have something to paint with the paints. Yes. But just two random orcs and one one just two boys.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

So you can't play a game with them I guess there may be alternative sculpts potentially I take it back Phil I take it back I take it back I'm a fool I'm a fool Phil I take it back this actually is really good the orcs set because it gives you paints you're gonna need because you're gonna need all them paints.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

But most importantly if you want to if you've put the armor if you have boxes of orcs and you want to run a 20 man unit of boys you need extra boys because a box of 10 boys has nine boys and a knob you cannot talk you cannot buy if you buy two boxes of boys you only have 18 boys.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

But surely 19 for a 20 man knob. But surely everyone would just go the orc knob is a regular boy.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Well I don't know how other orc players or you space marines or you custodies players do it. That's not how true orcs would do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Well I I'll tell you what when when it comes to my Nighthorn I did convert up an extra model because I didn't want the leader of my 10 man to be in my 20 man squad so I did create a generic man uh to go in. So I I I understand where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

This this baseman set pointless what do you need two more you don't need any more intercessors but that orc set is is gold dust because you're getting that you're getting two boys you're getting two extra boys that's two units that is two that is now two 20 man orc boys units you couldn't run.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Well that's true my my thought would have been it should have the orc special heavy and heavy weapons that you don't get in the Armageddon box set but you could have got them in here and then swap them out basically that's true for the standard guys.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Wait either way either way Phil with the in almost every version of buying orc points you're getting them in batches of five or ten you're getting them usually in uh so unit of ten one of them is a not so you you if you were if if you combine two units together you don't have enough buoys. For this set you get two extra boys. So that's two units of 20 you can now easily put together plus you've got some paints that you will need. I'm gonna call it now orc players source this find out where the cheapest as you can get it is I'll want to buy that.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

I'm gonna hold you to it if you don't buy this uh box up I'm gonna call you about in a future episode for being a phlanderous influencer you should call it that doesn't stick to your stick to your guns players or players back me up in the comments. Okay right next up onto some more interesting stuff I would say uh so combat patrol battle zone so this is a fold out game board the terrain footprint for those sold out uh elsewhere because they've gone in boxes that's where they are that's where they are we've worked it out you get uh the unpainted push fit scenery and obviously it's going to make up half of a strike force battlefield so if you got the starter set and this it does say you will make a full strike force uh battlefield noting that actually you won't have all the terrain footprints I assume because you don't do mate hold on let's just double check do you get the terrain footprints in that starter set? No you the starters I don't get the footprints so you buy you buy the starter set and combat patrol battle the footprints don't the footprints don't matter.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

But you don't get the footprints what I've discovered Phil in the last two weeks is that only I care about the footprints. Fair and the seriousness of their shapes. No one else cares.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

No.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

So just do whatever you I mean there's do whatever you want to for do it any and as since then I've also read the chapter approved rules which are just use your just you just do what you need to do to have a fun game. The terrain footprints aren't that I I don't think they're as important clearly as we were led to believe well not a little bit I think from from the competitive pro scene um those in that area they will still be very important but for the average game I don't think that they're as important.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

It's nice that they've got these but I don't think yeah because they don't appear in the chapter approved deck and the the chapter approved deck doesn't use terrain layouts but weirdly I think if you were to make a game with the app the app would give you the terrain layouts. So either they just didn't want to do all the terractions in print because it would require more cards and it'd be bigger than a a deck of cards and they were like limited or the the app is much more geared towards tournament players which in a way is because it links to your BCP and stuff like that. So yeah who knows it's interesting that they've included it here. Yeah in a way almost I don't know why they bothered with the area terrain here if it's designed as a bolt on for the starter set because I think I don't think it is meant as a bolt onto the starter set did did they I mean plus you can combine it with the terrain from the starter set for a full size stripe force battlefield minus the uh terrain footprints because you only have half of them.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

But also note what they what they specific look the specific wording is the terrain.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Well they say the terrain yes but you also get the board so you'd also have the board but you don't get boards with the st with the starter set. Yeah you do yeah you get the board with it. Yeah oh it's a double sided game board okay yeah I wasn't sure it was the double sided board okay that's good yeah so you get the board you get the terrain but you don't get the footprints with this one weirdly it feels like you get more terrain in this one but maybe that's just because they're not using the footprints and it's sort of more crammed in whereas or yeah I guess maybe they'd combined it or it's bigger pieces perhaps whereas the other one's got more sort of scattered terrain. Yeah this is there's no minis in the picture as well. Yeah that is also true. This does look good I'll give them credit for that then they give us some really good close-up photos of the unpainted terrain but it's been painted uh not the prepainted basically uh in a nice grey what I like about this is it's they're clearly made of all metal whereas the previous terrain has always been like concrete or stone you know clad around like iron girders and stuff like that whereas this gives it a more manufactorum sort of vibe. So even though I have a bunch of ruins I would actually quite like these because these are stylistically quite different. They also have less windows and you know things like that which you know for the people you know Games Workshop the rules are you can't see through the the bottom windows anyway but then there are pretty much no windows in these so it sort of does the same job. These overhead like cables and kind of generator lines look really interesting. I don't think they've really got enough to like sort of make a cool diorama out of them and sort of the way they get scattered around in the games workshop terrain format I don't think is that interesting but I think you could do some really interesting stuff with this. And then they've got yeah the weird mini sort of standalone barricades and the the power generators with the electrical effects on them and the the servitor plugged into the computer like these are all quite cool pieces of terrain like are they something you would add into your collection I might not add this particular set into my collection because we're gonna scroll down the page more in a second but I do I do like this the the style this goes for I like the way that the terrain itself has got like the dirt around them as well. It does to blend it in a little bit blends it in the terrain footprint to the to the either the what either the terrain footprints or more or just move down to uh the next one which shows off the all three uh that you can get so you can get the manufacturum ruins which are just the ruins on their own the galvanic network which is kind of barricades plus those overhead like power lines and then you get the capacitor clusters which are like more of the generators basically I think all of them are interesting. The I can't tell if I like the capacitor clusters or not. I I sort of like elements of the capacitor clusters but I don't like the ones with the I like the sort of more cylindrical generators but not the the three ones with the sort of electric coming out but then I hate in the Gavanic network the barricades but I really like the overhead cables then all the ruins are just cool I think. Which of these are is your fave?

SPEAKER_04 35:19

If I was I mean if I was going to get the terrain boxes I would have bought one of the bigger sets rather than the individual pieces. I think the probably the most useful one is probably the ruins or the galvanic network if you're trying to add on to your the exact what you start the game what what you what you get with the starter set because the because essentially this looks like you get twice what you would have got in the starter set. I think I've just been scrolling between the two to see if I can spot the difference yeah I don't it would be hard to tell.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

I would hope that if you bought all three that would be enough for a 40 that would be the same as buying the 40k box that we're gonna see in a second.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

So the 40k it is confusing because the capacitor cluster box looks like you get double what you get in the starter set because in the starter set is only half remember so that's half a 40k game.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Right but in the starter set is combat patrol.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

Right but in the starter set if you're looking at the capacitor cluster the capacitor cluster is you get two big things and two of the sparkly things but in the starter set you only have one each of those.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yes you are right so you get double so it's interesting that they only show you getting uh and then in the in this one you get one yeah I think you're right maybe so what it looks like is But maybe you get double of some sprues but not others because it looks like the servo guy with the screens you still only get one of that but everything else is doubled maybe. Oh actually no it's just tucked at the back so you do get a second one but it's hidden behind.

SPEAKER_04 37:12

It looks like the starter set of terrain includes one of these manufacturing ruins boxes, one of these galvanic network boxes and two of these capacitor cluster boxes is what you get. No sorry sorry no mean rephrase if you bought the manufacturing ruins the galvanic network and the capacitor cluster box separately you'd have more terrain than the starter set because you've got twice the capacitor clusters. Right yeah quite quite likely I always think that the ruins are the most important things for playing a game of 40k though I do think the capacitor clusters do give you more interesting things you can do with the Yeah well I guess the manufacturer ruins are your big air your really big area terrain pieces.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

They're going to be where your objectives are but you still have those little area terrain pieces which have sort of line of sight blocking things and they form up to be shapes and all sorts of things. So and you know we always say oh it's really boring just fighting in ruins all the time and then they're giving us some things that aren't ruins uh and we're like yeah not sure about them. I and I think that's maybe just how hardwired we are to think well ruins are essential. And if you've already got if you already have lots of ruin terrain then you could just get the then you can just go network stuff. And I think that's in a way what most people will do. Or they will find other random bits of terrain. So you know you've got the old manufactorum like pipelines you and there's like that that sort of forged shrine there was a shrine in like a forged kiln type thing that I remember you getting with one of those terrain sets. Like those things I could imagine would fit quite well in these smaller terrain pieces. So yeah I think people could have a dig through their collections to to make it up otherwise yeah some of these would be a good addition. I think actually the capacitor clusters is probably a fantastic addition for Necromunda or boarding actions because they're relatively low terrain but they're great sort of line of sight blocking for infantry to hide behind. So I think if you're a Necromunda player those obviously you wouldn't really care about the runes because that's too generic 40k but the they they feel quite hive like in terms of the uh you know you can make some interesting themed rooms with those I think would be quite a good addition to those sorts of game systems. And I guess we're now onto one of the bigger ones which is Warhammer 40k Battlefields Armageddon and this reminds me very much of uh Shadow War Colon Armageddon uh which was the precursor to Kill Team and when they did that we were all excited by the prospect of you know Shadow War, Kadia, Shadow War not terror, but you know, anywhere else in the galaxy, Krieg, for example, like and I think that and you know they never did any of that they never went anywhere. But the idea of Battlefield's Armageddon being the first of a series of boxes of themed terrain to specific planets where maybe their Tyranid or Orcorn or you know Necron themed tomb world or something is very exciting. But what you get in this is the pre-painted terrain sets and looking at this it does sort of I know you do actually get two lots of the capacitor clusters I think yeah because there's two of those big generators there's two lots of the overhead pipes so and yeah maybe it is two lots of ruins as well. So maybe it's basically two of each of those boxes gives you the full uh terrain set.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

I think it's one it's two of the manufactured ruins, two on the galvanic network and one of the capacitor clusters. Oh it's just one okay yeah because the capacitor cluster has twice as much stuff in it.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Right so okay right that makes sense. Yeah so it says each box contains 28 pieces of terrain split between those three elements as well as the full set of the terrain area footprint and a double sided gaming board. So this is going to be like the fold out ones that we currently get for Kill team and for spearhead for example. And to be honest they're actually really good I actually enjoy them they fold away really easily uh they're nicely detailed the fold lines aren't really too noticeable and they're weighty so they don't you know move around and you know that you don't have to roll them off around I think and store them away too much. They they fold down to quite uh small so these are the pre-painted stuff which is really interesting. They showed us on stream how quickly it is to assemble them which I thought was reasonably good. My only worry is wherever you're clipping them off the sprue those bits won't be painted so I don't know how much they blend into the colour of the the prepainted noose of the terrain or if those bits will need painting up separately or if they're cleverly designed that those bits basically go into the push fit. So maybe the painted bits is the only bit you'll see. You'll never see an area where you clip it off basically which would be quite clever if that is possible but I you know I don't see how that's always going to be the case.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

How are they going to work with all the mould lines?

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Well that's also a thing and a lot of games workshop terrain it has notorious mould lines and I'm someone that's a real you know Nazi for cleaning up mould lines you can see some mould lines on the close up photos and personally I would rather see even more close up photos. I really want to see this detail up close and I before I buy any prepainted terrain even if I if I was to consider doing it I would want to see some in person because I honestly don't think the quality is going to be all that great but for the convenience I think it'll be great. And you can sort of see they've got that classic you know on the girders there's that mold line up in the middle because it's all slightly tapered normally I'm really annoying and I will sort of shave those down even maybe it's meant to be there you can sort of see up on this circular thing of this galvanic luster is it or the pipe you can sort of see it there. Doesn't seem too noticeable on these pictures though the ruins again they haven't really given us a super up close in comparison to the pre-painted stuff it's got this slight hazy effect to it like this is so low quality it feels like but I think that's the speckling of the UV painted process that's giving that effect. But the fact is very speedy like there's a lot more detail here painted than you would probably want to paint yourself because to manually paint all of these dials and these panels so the inner panels are yellow the main metals grey but they've done all the dial detail they've painted you know the Deptus Mechanicus skull and all the trim they painted the sand and the cabling all different colours they've done hazard stress Stripes on the cabling and they've done all the screens. Like to paint that would take forever, and most people wouldn't paint it to that level. But I feel like there's a sort of resolution quality issue of these painted elements where they're just not going to be as smooth. There's going to be this yeah, speckling effect to it, which you know, for a terrain piece, maybe you won't care. But I I personally would want to see these in person before purchasing them. And if I remember rightly, they said on stream that they're slightly more than twice the price of two combat patrols. So if a combat patrol is say around £90, which it's not. Or more.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

It's a hundred. So I was just double checking this on the stream when we have when the topic comes up. What they quoted was that there's that this set will cost slightly more than two combat patrol two of the combat patrol size terrain sets. So that was the the previous remaining thing. Yes. I was just checking their wording on that. So there's the so they what they call the combat patrol is yeah, the combat patrol battle zone, which is half of this. This will cost slightly more than double, which would make sense. But that means so the slightly more is doing all the heavy lifting of how much painting. And it's like how much more? It's slightly more. And what they said was the combat patrol terrain costs about the same as a combat patrol.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Current combat patrols are £105 English pounds, if that's where you're based, and you're looking at all games workshops dying directly from Games Workshop. So I would guess that this is going to cost £200. I would guess the slightly more is going to be £40 at least. And it's going to be £250.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Uh £250, yeah, that's pretty much the upper price limit of a Games Workshop box currently. And for pre for something pre-painted, that doesn't seem too bad. And for a full box, or I can't believe I'm saying this, for a full terrain board isn't bad. But that is incredible. That's incredible value. Well, it well, it's incredibly expensive, but in the games workshop ecosystem, where one piece of ruins is like 50 quid, which is mind-blowingly expensive and bonkers. But in the games workshop mindset and ecosystem, yes, this is incredible value.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

If you're just okay, I've I think as I said in the last issue, last in the last issue, the last episode. In the last episode, if you have for someone who wants to play 40k but doesn't have the time or the effort or or or skill to paint this level of detail, like if they really do look as good as the images we're seeing, where like they've got like keypads where the individual the keys are colours, they've got like lines and things across all these display panels. If it's that good, I mean admittedly it's not cheap. You could buy if you could if uh you and a mate could put could combine your resources together to purchase this, and that's half the price. Yeah, absolutely. To have a fully painted battlefield.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah, you you could not instantly pay for it was a good to paint to this level for the same price as as this if you just bought the unpainted version and then tried to with the extra cash that you save, which is maybe, as you said, 50 grid, to get someone to paint to this level, it'd just be impossible. So, yeah, as a value proposition, especially if you don't want to paint or don't have the skill to paint. Um, because I love the idea of painting my own sets and sort of theming it to whatever I want, but it's like I would not paint it to this level of detail.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

When was the last time you painted terrain?

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Well, I uh the answer is never, pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

I and I'm not saying that's I'm not saying that to have a dig. But the only reason why is what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

I've until until this year, I've not had a gaming table to play 40k. I've only been able to play cool team-sized stuff. And I guess the argument is I could have painted that stuff up, but yeah, I've just never got around to it.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

To be fair, though, during COVID, I painted up some combat patrol terrain and I've never used it. But I have it. I have two boxes of I have enough terrain to be able to play, I think, 2,000 points of 40k, but I've never used it. But I've got all the terrain. Well painted.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

But I've never used it. You can come around and play it on my table because I have no painted terrain. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

We'll have to do that. Now I like I can drive short distances again now, so soon I'll be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Exactly. That that's uh that's worthwhile doing. Yeah, so I think yeah, it'd be interesting to see what the price is. It'll be interesting to see how if this is a limited release or if this is like an evergreen product product that's going to stick around for a while, because I think that would be a real winner if it does. But if this is a one and done thing, uh it might be really short supply, might sell out really uh quickly. But I could imagine lots of people picking this up just for the sheer convenience of it. And like I said, I don't have a painted terrain, I can't get hold of the area terrain mats as we talked about in the last episode, because they just instantly sold out because they put them in these boxes. Well, we know where they all are. Well, they all are in these boxes, apparently. But so the idea that I get a mat because I don't have one of those, I get all the terrain I could possibly need, and it's pre-painted, and I also get the area terrain. This does feel like a bit of a no-brainer purchase, it's just expensive, you know. It's uh cheap for what games workshop are giving you, but it's still £250, right?

SPEAKER_04 49:34

I would say if you if you want to do if you're playing combat patrol or smaller games, then A, you don't need to care so much about the the area. The full size things anyway, you don't need this much terrain. But if you'd like to play 2,000 points and you can just buy it and assemble it. I mean, it's all pushbate. This could take you like maybe if there's too say there's two of you, and you buy this box. I would I would guarantee you that within an hour you'll approximately you've built it all.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Well, because because as you say, there's no there's no mould lines that you can possibly clean up, so it forces you to not worry about that, even if that there are some on there. So it two things I would say. Interesting that the they said it's double-sided, much like they said with the Every train, but they haven't shown us what the other side is. Is it exactly the same or is it a slightly different colour? That would be interesting. And I think you pointed this out a couple of days ago. This mat would work really well for Age of Sigma as well, because it's so nondescript, and in fact, it's themed on the old realm of battle boards where I was wondering to with the skulls on, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 50:43

Um I just want to go out that they did that. Look, we need to give whoever came whoever had the idea at Games Workshop to put those old cracks in the surface where you see all the skulls underneath, which was in all of the realm of battle boards. I don't know if it's even similar to the other cracks on the surfaces. I know from a person who's played this game for a lot for many years, seeing that again nostalgia is like, oh, it's like the game used to be again. Again, yeah. This is phenomenal. This is the fact this exists. I've you said is it gonna be do you think it's gonna be one and done or evergreen? I think the amount they must have invested in this technology, this has to be an evergreen product where they'll have new, they'll have newer versions of this or have a they can release new terrain that's ready painted, or even smaller sets of it that's ready painted.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Oh, that's interesting. They might split these off individually, but my point is will this exact box be evergreen at least for a year or this edition? I wouldn't be surprised if, like I said, because it's Battlefield's Armageddon, they do they go, cool, this is a one-off, we're sell it out, and we've made all our profit that we need to, because that's mostly how Games Workshop operates as a business model nowadays. But then in six months' time or a year's time, there'd be like a battlefield Octarius, and it's loads of orc terrain that's pre-painted for effectively next you know, the next season of tournament play, which is sort of how they've been doing things over the years, like with um, you know, one time we got Leviathan, and then we got Pry Nexus as these, like each seat year was a season themed somewhere, and now they're leaning into that even more. So this year is going to be Armageddon, but next year it might be somewhere else, which I think is quite a cool way of doing it.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

For tournaments, this is huge. I would I would I would I wouldn't be surprised if it ever was if it came out that this was that they developed this at four tournaments and then decided we might as well sell it to the public as well. Because this means that people instantly. Because then if you're having any big tournament, send a bunch of these boxes, it'll look great. There's no more cardboard L shapes or other Yeah. No no criticism against just regular people playing the games with your with what you're doing with your playing with your mates. We've all we all remember the LGT photos from years ago and of how of how some of the big events did not have enough train and it wasn't it didn't look up to power. Now there is a ready-made solution.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah, I just available. £250 is still probably too expensive for most tournament organizers per table, but maybe you'd get a box or two for like the top table, especially if you're live streaming, you would probably just do this. Obviously.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

So because that that's a big that's a that's a great business model. That's a business idea just for that. I'm gonna buy all this terrain and then just learn it out to people.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 53:41

I mean that's it.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

We talked to Tom a bunch, who does some great events, shout out to Tom. But he always he'll always say about how difficult it is having so much terrain available to have available for tournaments because each table's gotta have look really nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

True. But my uh downside that I said last week is if you had a tournament that's full of the exact same terrain and you're changing tables every single uh between each match, but you're basically playing on the same same train. Five games on this same terrain personally is boring.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

I think you're you're thinking about this completely well. That's I would argue that's exactly what the pro tournament seed want. They want to have the they want to have the I'm speaking for them. From my experience is they want to have someone that is consistent. Yes, I think.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

I mean I've I've seen plenty of a Facebook post where someone has said, what does uh this weird shape, which is I think one of these galvanic generators, on the terrain footprint, what should it look like? Or how can I cut my MDF terrain to match the area terrain footprints? Uh, because everyone is caring about playing it exactly the correct official uh games workshop prescribed away. Whereas we've already said, no one involves the footprints. People need to take a bit more of a chill pill, and you know, games workshop in the chapter approved, uh, you know, deck of cards doesn't even talk about the footprints, it sort of just says use your terrain and and sort of make it up. But I think it but regardless, people are always trying to play it the most official way. And Games Workshop has kind of created this problem themselves because they have pushed so hard the promotion of the area terrain footprints in the lead up to Armageddon, which is ironic that they then all sold out everywhere. I think they may unnoyingly they've made people buy these area terrain footprints twice because everyone prior to Armageddon has basically gone out and bought th second sorry, third party area terrain footprints or the games workshop footprints, and a lot of those people will now want this terrain and they come with the area terrain footprints.

SPEAKER_04 56:03

Which is interesting an interesting problem they've created for themselves. That ever the sort of people who would well, it depends who it's for. That's why I got it wasn't originally this is the purpose of this box that we're looking at here, the pre-painted terrain box is you want to play 2,000 points of 40k, you've got all your minis, but this box has everything you need to play on. Yeah, it's all in there. I think you have you have to include the uh terrain footprints in there.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

I think with the other box but then it's interesting that when when you have either with the combat patrol one, they also have the footprints in there. Or they get or rather they have half the other.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

But not in the starter set one.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

The starter set doesn't have the footprint still.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

And they're solving issues of supply on the footprints. I think they've kind of maybe got themselves stuck in a bit of a quandary of where they put all the stuff all those terrain footprints in. Yeah. And they probably have not enough to go everywhere. Yeah, I could imagine that being the case. Yeah. But this is this is amazing. I hope it does I hope it's not too expensive. We're just relying on discovering how much slightly more is according to X.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

Also, I'm not joking.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Is it going to be Games Workshop only, or can third party sell it and therefore will there be a discount on it? Because Games Workshop does have a horrible habit lately of going, oh, this is direct only. So they get all the money for themselves.

SPEAKER_04 57:25

I would when have they done that on a major release?

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Uh well, we were thinking they were doing it with the area terrain footprints.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

We were, but then that that whole situation with the area terrain was like a bit of a cost or something. Um because usually usually I've only seen the things be reserved for games workshop themselves when it's limited edition novels or well novels in general, because a lot of people and certain generic games workshop sort of model ranges, direct only. Yeah, and some of the like next some of the Necromanda stuff is only is like only direct because there's not enough cause for it, I guess, to be available to the third.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

True. And I wouldn't be surprised if terrain normally falls under that as well, but because if this is a big push, because it's a new concept, maybe it isn't. Um obviously ready painted terrain has its own brand and logo, so obviously they're they're planning on this being a regular thing that they're gonna do more of.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

I think they've messed up that terrain. I think they've messed up that logo.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Is it well because it's too messy?

SPEAKER_04 58:27

No, no. I think they I think they've I've I were is anything I'd like I don't know if they've if that's just for Wama community or if that's the I'm a cute I'm gonna assume it's the official logo. Um I'm also gonna assume that they've had lots of conversations and what I'm about to say, they'll be like, well, we thought of that and we had a better idea. My only take on it is it feels a mistress it feels like it's a mystery that that logo isn't in more colour because the whole point of Ready Painted Terrain is that it's fully painted. It's fully painted. So the fact that the logo is only in black and white, I kind of feel that's a mystery. I think they must have thought about this because the rest of it looks like there's brush strokes and paint going on. So they've tried to communicate that's as my thing is I would probably be cool to have that with some colour in it, but they've got this like this paint brushes effect on it.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

I think a lot of their logos are gone are monochrome though, you know, like whether it's Warhammer Community, Warhammer, they tend to do black and white logos, maybe it's for legibility. But I as you can see.

SPEAKER_04 59:22

There's probably good reasons why I I just think it's a it's a mistrick that it's not more colourful to find community. That's understandable.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

That's quite painted. Yeah, clever insight, I think. I think I think that is valid.

SPEAKER_04 59:34

But as I as I'm once I'm saying that, I can see that they've used like brush strokes in the logo in just in case their graphic design team is listening. Um I see what I I think I see what you just how you how you've got on that journey. And there might be someone saying, Well, we wanted full colour, but we weren't allowed it. It had to be monochrome. Um, but I think it's cool. I think this is one of the greatest release things coming to um the hobby is ready paintering. I think it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

I I I think this is the biggest design evolution in the hobby since probably contrast paint. Um I still think on one hand it's great for gamers and great for accessibility. It does drive people away from doing hobbying in terms of scratch building and painting their own stuff. But I also appreciate lots of people hate that element of the game and it's a bit of a barrier to entry. So people can still do it. And I think a lot of people are, you know, are you know, Dan's been making his own area terrain footprints, like scratch building them from cardboard and you know, serial packets and stuff to put his own because he's got tons of train already, and he's he's gonna put that on. I would be quite tempted to do that myself, but the ease of just buying this is incredibly tempting, even for someone who loves scratch building and and and making my own stuff and customising it. And so, yeah, this is still quite appealing. So, yeah, a very big swing from Games Workshop. So I'm and I'm sure it will be a success so long as it's priced reasonable. I think that's the only concern. Then they yeah, they got the close-up photos, we've looked at those already. This one's also quite exciting. This is Battle Mat Armageddon.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

Which they didn't talk about in the in the live stream.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

No, they didn't talk about this one, and this is slightly different because this says battle mat and it says it's fabric, whereas is a this one's a game board that you get in Battlefield Armageddon. That's a the old fold-out boards. This is a battle mat. It just specifically says fabric battle mat. No more details on that. It says it has a nice soft touch finish, a smooth surface, and features a beautiful high-res image, which is the same one as before. So it's that you know, skulls, old style terrain boards. But it's in a it's in a box that I assume is at least folded in half or something. So it because it's fabric, uh I remember issues of like that. So they've done neo-prene-esque mats before, they did a fold-out ironable mat before, and they all never quite like looked good. I remember one time they did these nicely designed for the frontierist uh terrain. It was like a square mat though, but it had rounded corners and it was all stitched, but it had rounded corners, which was a bit odd. And yeah, I think those it was either those ones which were ironable or it was another set that was ironable, but I remember those not being that great. This almost makes me think it's made of maybe that same fabric y but plasticky material that the last set of 40k objectives were made on, perhaps. But but I don't know. And this does they don't really show it off in any real way. Concept-wise, it sounds really exciting, and like I said, I'm after a battle mat, so maybe this would be it, but it's it's not double-sided. They haven't said it's neoprene, and the implication is it's much thinner than that. So yeah, I don't know. Will it will it get creases? Is my worry basically.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

My opinion on it has completely changed because I my brain did not clock the square shape of the box. At this point, I think it's terrible because it's just gonna be folded up. Is it like a tablecl? Is it like a tablecloth that you fold out?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Is it what we're actually talking about here? It looks like it's big enough, like the size of the box feels like it's a piece of fabric folded in half or maybe quarters.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

I think the I think that box is smaller than you think it is. Maybe I think that's actually not that large a box. I would guess that is that that is the same size as a combat patrol. I just know because it's a square, isn't it? I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

When they're folded up, which is basically into four quarters. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:04

I'm I'm very con I need to know more about what it is. Exactly. Now I think it's terrible because I thought I assumed it was a neoprene mat, which it might be, but it's just that packaging looks really weird. That it would be packaging. Why is it a rollout, like a big mouse mat. Yeah. That's what people want. Like I had one of these, I have I've still got their uh Reichland Leavers Blood Bowl rollout mat for all those games of Blood Bowl that I play. For those uh for those on the audio only, I was making a sarcastic face there, because I've never used it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

But I thought it would be cool, so I bought it. Uh part of me wonders if it's similar to the material that they have at Warhammer World for their mats, because they're pretty good. Although I don't think they're fabric, they're just like heavyweight paper, I would have thought. Um I I want to see some better photos. I wish they had a a more close-up photo.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:56

I'm I'm assuming the reason it's one-sided is because it's got something on the other side so it doesn't slip.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Yes, which is similar to you know, like the objective markers, which have that sort of felting back to make it non-slip. Uh yeah, I yeah, it seems interesting. It's great that they're doing it. It's got obviously it's got that Battlefields brand, so it's something they're probably going to do more of, assuming it's a success. But it's a sort of thing that Games Workshop occasionally experiment with and get terrible reviews and then they don't do again. So I hope it's not that because potentially I could buy this and then you know make my own area terrain and I've got loads of terrain to put on it, and maybe buy one of the you know the galvanic uh boxes or something to to boost uh the amount of terrain that I've got, and then I'll I'll have this. The fact that it's not double sided is a bit of a shame. Um, but then who knows what the double side of that design on the board versions actually is. If it's you know the exact same thing, but for some reason it's double sided or has problems, might as well not be. Yeah, so that. Comes to the end of all the terrain chats. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we go on to the next section? Richard. Oh, you're asking me. Yes. It was a question aimed at you. So sorry, I was I briefly zoned out. Can you ask me again? Uh yeah, we we've come to the end of the battlefield terrain section. Anything you want to add before we move on?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:23

Oh, um it's no, I think they these I I l I really want to give a shout to whoever designed and put the the the mats the the mats boards, whatever they are, have that realm of battle board inspired designs with the skulls on them. I think the terrain looks really cool, especially the pre-painted stuff. Uh I really dig this the various starter sets that they the games are just putting together. I think they the the the especially as I mentioned pre especially the orc introduction set, because then maybe I think there's two extra boys to complete my units of 20. Uh I think I think these are really nice um like entry points to the to to the hobby. I do wonder how many people might have preferred to have bite that bought the starter set rather than Armageddon.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:04

Um because it comes with terrain.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

Which I think is very good. Where but I think that's more down to a people not quite understanding what well Games Workshop have kind of trained us, apparently. Uh I say apparently because clearly hasn't worked worked on everybody that they start a new edition with here's a box full of minis that are gonna kick stuff, and that and maybe some rules and stuff in there. Um I think it's more uh and rules and stuff in there which you don't get um and then there'll be the actual starter sets which are a bit more impractical. So I think the starter set is really, really good. I think all the all the starters are really good. I think they feel they feel really good niches. Most of them not for regular like the it feels like the there's a lot of this actually like the terrain stuff is good for is that good and relevant. Plus, a lot of the starters are introductory sets that's more like a biz dev looking to the stuff to the to the marketplace and saying, look at all the different products we're gonna use to help you sell entry points into the hobby. Like someone like uh uh well the likes of like um I would guess like the the the element games or the third parties or Smith's Toys or whatever it is, hobby crafter than our stock is having these like really cost-effective hobby in a box um introductory sets is really good for consumers, but also really good for getting more people into the hobby. So I think they're great. I'm really I'm I'm concerned on the battle mat now. I was really excited now. I'm like, what is it? But very excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

Yeah, no, that's fair. I I think all good points and completely in agreement uh with you on that. Yeah, I'd like to see more, especially the battle mat and the pre-painted terrain. I'd probably want to see in person in a shop before plunging in in on them, basically. Um but I like the idea of an all-in-one box with the area terrain, the terrain, even if it's unpainted, and the the the fold-out card mats, because I've I've had several of those from you know either kill teams, yeah, just kill team basically, and spearhead. And they're good quality and they sort of.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

They missed a trick, Phil. I've just realized they've missed a complete they should have put a cardboard dreadnought.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

They should have put a cardboard thing in the cardboard cardboard dacker rig in the yeah, so for the if we scroll up, the orange. This cardboard introductory set, they could have done a cardboard DACA rig and maybe a cardboard land speeder or dreadnought would have been.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:20

I think it was in the if I remember it in the original second edition box, it was just there's a cardboard orc dreadnought in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Yeah, that was it. That was all we had was a cardboard orc dreadnought. Yeah. I think maybe they would have been like that's a stretch too far just to do an in-joke, but uh people would have appreciated it, I think. Yeah, that would have been.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:40

I think knowing the way some of the competitors seem to take it, they would have taken that as a games workshop allow it, so I can do it now. I think I could see that occurring.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

I can 100% agree. Um and I've I'm pretty sure I've seen people ask that question about the old one going, is this would this still be valid? And it's probably a troll, but be people have asked it. So yeah. Um anyway, let's move on to the next section. So I'll do a mini transitional noise.

Orks

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

So in this section, we're looking at your favourite 40k faction. I'm assuming, Richard, it's orcs.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:13

Yes, it is orcs on my favourite, they are my favourite right now. It was briefly Chaos Nights, but we're back on the orcs because they are the bestest.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Uh and this is all vehicular Mad Max style combat. Uh so we've got updates to the truck. Uh so it's gorgeous. It's very um oh what I'm good. I'm trying to think of a name of the the big uh the big trucks in America. War rig. And American trucks with the big wheels that go smash stuff. Monster trucks, very themed. Um, but yeah, there's a Warrig element to it as well, um, in terms of Mad Max inspiration. Uh in this one, so it's a six-wheeler, it's got the sort of mad uh sort of orc face design on the front. Um above the like bonnet, you've got like the uh the is it like an air vent for the for the engine. Supercharger filled. Supercharger, you can see I'm not a car person at all. Uh supercharger, uh you've got some horns or some tusks at the front, you've got a grabber claw, you've got the driver, you've got a gunner, uh, and you've got a couple of little grots hanging off the sides. And they've sort of said you can position this uh in a bunch of variety of ways. So the gunner can be on the other side, or the uh grabber core can be on the other side in a bunch of different design uh elements that are slightly different. And then yeah, there's another version with an like alternative front uh different um instead of a grabber, you've got like a buzzsaw uh type arm and then another different type of uh heavy weapon option. Still looks like the same driver. I think that's the one consistent thing, plus the overall shape. Um, but otherwise, yeah. I mean, personally, I'm not weirdly a huge fan of the code. Driver has a different face, just to be clear. Does he?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:09

Okay, so slightly different face by the looks of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

But yeah, I I it feels it reminds me of the Beastnaggers um uh models where me and Dan described them a bit as playmobil in terms of the giant um uh monster uh vehicle thing that you could get with that. They're a bit too cartoonish. Uh and when they did the com so they did a size comparison on um the live stream with the old one, which they was describing as a bit more like scrap uh scrap design. And I was like, I kind of like that more clunky, we just built it uh out of bits of metal, whereas this almost feels like it's been designed a bit too well. Um it doesn't look as ramshackle, I think was the term they used. Yeah, it doesn't look as ramshackle basically. Um and yeah, so I yeah, for that reason I sort of don't like it as much as I would otherwise, which is odd because uh every other orc thing they've done uh with the Armageddon release, I've I've really loved. Um but tell me how much you you love this.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

I think it looks really cool. But the the only the only minor issue one has with the orc truck, the old truck and the new truck, is I don't for a second believe that 10 orc boys can get in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Uh yeah, because if you look at the back here, you've got two guys and you couldn't fit another five guys in. Um but maybe they're hanging on.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:43

I would I'd love I would love it if some if if there exist because one some kits that I do have, I do still have them because I really wanted to back in the day, and that I but uh it was so long, it took me so long to actually get around to building them to use them to the extent I didn't actually build them, was the old land speeder Tempest, which had loads of which was the scout one, which scouts could use as a transport, and there's scouts all hanging off it to represent that there was a scout squad in there. Um I love that model, but I never got around to using it or building it, but it was a commodore. That's that's the only one thing I have is like or it'd be cool if there was like a sprue or someone um or that you can say grot hanging up. Scratch build it, so that there was a whole bunch of rocks hanging up here. I love the design of it. I think it's cool. I can see why some people think it looks a bit too cartoony. It's things like on the side angle, you can see all like this this the suspension springs, yes, as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Which is very similar to the what was it like the hippogriff, I think, with the new Astra Militarum. They've done a lot of suspension stuff on there, so it's a good big thing. Gone gone are the days of the Roguel Dawn where the bottom is missing. I think they're almost going full on with detail now, and it's becoming much more like a scale model kit in that regard.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:00

When the on the live stream they did they, as you said, they did a scale comparison to the existing war um war truck and this new war truck. And what was cool, well they are definitely comparable size-wise, which is great, but this has definitely got the speed freaks of a new range. So this is definitely gonna have to be a sub-assembly kind of thing. Because especially all the details and the undercarriage, yeah. And with the crew, I mean it was the f the first models that I ever felt I had to do um sub-assemblies for was my orc um speech vehicles and they look so good as a result of it, but they were like the most cra it was the first time I had like it was the Boondaka Snazwagon that I had where it was like seven pieces that I'm painting before gluing it together because it's all like hollow as a buggy. And I'm getting that same vibe with this, which I think I think is really cool. I love this this visualization they have for the orc kind of speed freak side of the of the army. And I think it's great. I think I I like the fact it looks a bit cartoony and uh like these are the these are the boys when we're going in the truck, let's go. Because it doesn't it doesn't need to make sense because it in in a way if we were to look at say the hippogriffs and the new Astral Militaran vehicles, it'd be very clearly inspired by 20th century military vehicles. But um this is very clearly uh inspired by Monster Trice. Yeah and or more like modern or like like 20th century vehicles. I mean it's the same for all the speech like the all of the speech week vehicles are clearly based around 20th century vehicles um in on Earth. Which I think is cool. I think this is an an extension of that, but I just think it's really cool. Uh I hope the the rules are still the rules are get slightly better for it. Um but I think it's cool. I I love it. I'm looking forward to this. I can see myself buying at least one at least one of these to have the boys in. Yeah. As I said before, it uh it it as before I I would love to I would love it if they had some kind of upgrade or if there's like some uh or if there's any like tip guides that they have a scratch build like the the boys hanging in there. Because I'd love to have like a thing so I could so it's like when it's transporting, there's like a load of boys in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Yeah, I feel like you could you well with your extra ones that you buy from that painting.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:23

Those those are to get my 20 man boys units to fill.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

Fair.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:27

Maybe I should maybe that's it. I should buy the other sets so spare boys to fill this up, fill up the trucks.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Was it the starter set with the new sculpts? You could possibly put them in there. Having them hang on is going to be difficult to do, but you've got you know a hand that you could potentially reuse from this guy, and there's one for the other side as well. I think you could easily do a little um like a sort of footplate over the back wheels, um, so they could be stood on there, right? And then maybe you do like a, I don't know, green stuff a uh a cable around their waist, uh, so they're like hanging on that way, so I don't need to be holding on. But that maybe that's too health conscious for uh or safety conscious for an orc. Maybe you just do yeah, little foot plates and have them um stood on them, basically. And then you have a couple more inside, so that way you've got guys outside and uh inside. Because I remember people were talking about in Gorkamorca, I think there was a rule that you could like put as many orcs in your trucks as possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:29

But if they fell off, they can't they they counted as falling off.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:32

Yes. If they fell off while you were moving it, they actually fell off in the game and like took damage or died or something like that. Would be quite fun to sort of almost represent that uh in the game. And I could almost see them um with this doing a you know, once they've done a few more vehicles, maybe do a Gorkamorka spin-off or um, you know, a white dwarf special rules for them or something. Um yeah, I mean you've sold me a little bit on the concept of them. Um I think uh the second one is a little bit better. Maybe I like the bulldozer at the front and the engine uh a little bit more. Uh and that one looks a little bit more ramshackle, I think. Um next up we've got the mech.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:16

I do, I I do I do want I do I'm talking I hope they would I'd love to see, I don't know if they will do it. I would love to see them taking the this aesthetic and applying it to the larger truck to apply it to the likes of the battle wagon. Yes, yeah. It's a very old kit, but it's quite a large one. And I'd love to see them do that. I'd love to see I would love also love to see the return of Grot tanks and Grot vehicles more coming along.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:41

I have an entire Grot Tank army, so I'd love them to get rule support, even if um so if they end up making them in plastic and I just use my resin ones, that's fine with me. Um, and I think that they would do them in maybe more of an aesthetic along this line, like sort of wacky races. Um, but maybe they would keep them sort of a bit distinct. But yeah, stuff like that. The grot tanks, the mega tank, and um all of that was very cool. Uh so it would be uh good to see. Uh yeah, then we got uh the mech, who's the guy who's uh building and sort of fixing things. I really like the look of this guy. I love his uh welding goggles, his little portable crane backpack. Uh he's got a wrench of some kind, and he's got another one in it on hanging off his backpack. He's chewing on a he's chewing on a screw. Oh, he is, yeah. So he's sort of like smoking a screw or chewing it as if it's like a little um toothpick. Uh that's a good spot. I didn't actually see that. And then he's got some little, yeah, like arc welder gun, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:43

That'll be that'll be his mega bl his his mega blaster.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Custom mega script says, yeah. And he gets um plus one to hit um because he's clever. Uh so yeah. I mean that's it's a cool mini. Uh so I imagine people would like it. Uh as an orc player, are you gonna be getting this guy? Probably.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:04

Is it's definitely he's definitely seems much larger than the existing orc mech.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

Because there already is a mech, but it's not yeah, because often you get um you like you get big mechs, don't you? And you get your um Yeah, because there's the older force build.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:23

Is quite the old one has a he has a custom mega slugger, he has a wrench, but he doesn't have the big chain grabby hook thing to go with him. That's cool. I think this is a this is a cool this is a cooler mini than the old one.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

Yeah, I love his big red button on his chest, which clearly powers and operates the the crane, so he can have a have a go at like a uh you know a soft toy claw machine almost with his hook. Uh I wonder if there'd be rules that he can grab someone in combat or something mad. Uh but yeah, he's a cool minute, beautifully painted as well, I might add. Um yeah, he's really nice. Uh then we got the war boss, which we've already previewed. He's in a very similar pose to the Armageddon one, but like it's in reverse. Um, the claw I absolutely love. The little grot guy is ultimately the war boss. Um, yeah, this is a phenomenal mini. I really love this variant that they've shown off, but he is a multi-part kit. They say um he gets four upper parts to his head and four jaws for a total of 16 different combinations, and then he gets a bunch of different weapon options uh and back banners as well. And he even gets a custom you know assistance. So rather than having the grot, you can have a squig. Um yeah, this head has uh like a sort of metal lower jaw, and then he's got a sort of rams, uh, horn, uh back banner, and a double-sided axe uh for his close combat weapon.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:05

The best one is in yeah, if you if you is yeah, that on the top left now on your side.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Oh yeah, top left. Well, uh they've got a blood axe war boss. So they've got the blood axe war boss, but missing the uh Commissar Yarrick style claw. So that's the combo I would do with this guy. I would do Commissar Hat plus Power Claw, so he's like a knockoff orc Yarrick. I think would be the best. But yeah, I do like that um uh yeah, Blood Axe uh style helmet, and the like even the camo paint scheme that they've done for the armour. I think that's very cool. Uh the squig's okay, but I prefer the little guy. Um I mean I guess in theory both. You could do both, because yeah, he the squig comes on the base, and the little guy is a separate model entirely, so you get him, I guess, regardless. Uh, but he just looks so cool. I like he's wielding a little pistol plus uh an auto gun on his shoulder. Um that's not an auto gun feel, that's a shooter. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:07

Or grot shooter, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:09

I'm unaware of the orclingo. Uh but it's he's definitely got a grot blaster of some kind.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:15

The best little grot is one on the on the back of the orc war boss in mega armor where he's firing the big shooter on the side of the bigger. Oh, the stubber gun.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

Yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, big shooter, not stubber gun.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:24

Yes. Yeah, use it, use the white words, Phil.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:27

He's he's very cool. And that is a very cool mini as well, uh, to be fair. Um and that was relatively new, that was only like a year or two old now, wasn't it? It was.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:36

But it that mini has now essentially been resigned because the only reason you'll ever take it now is because he can now only lead mega knobs. And the mega knobs, in theory, should be getting replacing uh a revamp because they haven't had a revamp in forever. Yes, and they're quite fine. And if they I can't wait to see what they look like in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

Well, yeah, I would because they I think they've still said there's still more orcs to come, um, and they haven't previewed any yet. They have previewed uh some space marine stuff that's coming, which we'll get on to shortly, even though that wasn't part of the big summer reveal. We will cover that. Um uh so yeah, maybe maybe they'll be coming shortly. Uh, and then they've also shown us the new design of the orc codex, and I actually really like the format of the and like the layout of the design. So the cover art is quite cool, it's like the new War Boss, but then they've got like this split um margin, uh, which goes into kind of the classic 40k background of these like sort of screaming skulls. I'm so tired of that artwork. It's a very old so tired of seeing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:46

But I do like the effect, but I'm so tired of seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

I don't I don't mind it, and it's like I like the the type 4 orcs codexes sort of going sideways down um the front, and then they've got the symbol of the orcs at the bottom right, and then you've got the Warhammer logo top left. I like that it's different, it's not like before where they're like, here's the artwork, and it's probably the same artwork from the previous edition, but all we've done is we've added the logo into the background where we've actually faded out and ruined the image because we've had to put this logo in. Like, I think this design looks very fresh and more modern and better designed, I would say. So, whoever designed this, I think they've done a much better job at it.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:31

And I think what's the the limited edition gonna look like, though, Phil, the call the collector's version, which I'm assuming they're still gonna do. Is it gonna look better or worse than this one? Because it was a bit our level I'll I'll level throughout 10th. I never bought any of them in 10th, but it was a bit touch and go which one was better. Because some of them were some of the the the way the the the like collectors edition designs I thought were a bit rugby.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:54

Yeah, good a lot of the collector's editions, weren't they more classic artwork, if I recall?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:00

I remember they had different artwork and I didn't I didn't the font was the font choice was weird, but enough about that. We're not talking about that because that's not what they showed off. I do think this looks cool. As much as I I I'm kind of bored of seeing that black, blacky, grey, bluey artwork of all the faces. I do like the treatment they've done for this cover.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:20

Yeah, no, it is very cool. It's different. Well, yeah, I sort of like that it's sort of distinct from other editions, which is good. Obviously, the spine still looks exactly the same. Um so you know, when you're lining them up on your um on your bookshelf, maybe they will look indistinguishable from previous editions, but at least the cover is different. Uh then they previewed some of the rules, which I haven't shown here, but they talk about there's this rolled up uh mechanic uh and that you get 15 detachments to mix and match between. They also talked interestingly that combat patrol it hasn't got its own separate rules that Basically, whatever combat patrol will be will just use the detachments basically. So maybe you get access to those like one DP detachments rather than the bigger ones. And that sort of makes sense because the combat patrol rules were almost near identical to the 40k rules, but were different enough to be a bit annoying, and they're just duplicating a lot of data sheets basically at the end of the day. So it sort of makes sense to just roll it all into one. So yeah, it'll be keen to see what this looks like in terms of when it comes out. It sounds like there's a ton of lore. They talked about how every page, no, every unit has its own sort of dedicated section, which they show off here. So they've got the Big MacDaca rig. So there's no artwork for these ones in particular, but maybe there will be for some of the others. But you get a couple of paragraphs of text, a big picture, and then some sort of close-up sort of uh detail shots of different things. And on this one page, uh, which is a double page spread, basically, you've got a Big MacDaca rig, and then you've got the mech guns as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:10

Can we go back briefly to talking about orcs being riled up? Because they did show more of this in the live stream because they posted a screenshot of it. Basically, what this means is in layman's terms, is they've now made it so that being riled up is basically what wins the wair, you're affected by dawah. However, you can only call dawah once per battle. So it suggests there will be other ways where units can get the equivalent of being the wa when the wa isn't active.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

So some uh like a s a s a stratagem might get you right get making units riled up or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:49

So I think I think it's a a way of of making it so that rather than because the dawah is the big thing and to give but there's only once per game, it's only once per battle, but so they'll now add in they because there's some some units of the ability to have the effects of dawah, or you can call a second war. I think what this means is they would they are just allowing the orcs more opportunities to use the same buff, but not call it dawah because then it's like this it's not like the war is always active, it just means that you are that the orcs can be riled up and have the same benefits as before, which I think is cool. And on those yeah, and on the images that uh you that from that we've got there. I think a big takeaway from this is we are not getting new orc mechagons. Well uh the codex has got the old images, it makes it s significantly less likely that they're gonna get new minis.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:46

At least before the um at least before the codex comes out. So not in this range refresh. But they might at some point, to be honest, they only came out, I want to say, seven years ago. Like they're relatively new in the grand scheme of things, but I guess maybe they're not quite as new as the current range, but they're not bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:12

I think I think they're fine. Yeah, because we looked at the same, I think they're they're fine, but of all the things that might be getting a refresh, this suggests it's not gonna be the mech guns.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:21

But yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. Uh, one other thing I wanted to talk about, the book, um, because they talk about it's packed with painting tips alongside art and faction law with loads to read about the orc culture, their main background, and a new collecting section giving advice for building orc armies in four distinct archetypes, which will basically be maybe your um different sort of subfactions. And I think one of the criticisms of the previous codexes is originally the rules were baked in around your subfactions. So, uh, for example, space marines, you would have, you know, you paint your space marines blue and they're ultramarines, therefore, they get given the ultramarine specific rules and have access to these specific characters and what have you. And you still have that to a lesser extent where it's a keyword and you get access to units, but everything else is up for grabs. And in other editions, there was you can pick and mix your regiments abilities for your guard or pick and mix your space marine factions. So it's like you could technically recreate guards that represent Katachan or represent Krieg, but there was nothing in the book telling you what they were, and and it was only possible because you were an existing um guard player. So, what I like here is for a new person, they're going, yes, there there are these, as you were saying, uh blood axes, for example, um, and there's gonna be beast snaggers, and they go, Cool, he's our here are the four different like main archetypes, the main like factions that you can build your orcs as, um Speed Freaks or whatever it might be, and that they're actually sort of hand-holding a little bit for for newer players. I think that would be really interesting to keep maintaining those distinct identities and subcultures, even though the rules themselves don't really have any effect on your army. But from a collecting and painting point of view, they will. So I think that's good that they're maintaining that because that's quite inspiring, I think, for people when they're collecting, they want to know they're they're either doing it the right way or that they're painting them correctly. I think that's um really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:41

I'm interested how they're gonna do that because they specifically say four archetypes. Yeah, and there's more. And they're and there's more. So my I would be I'm expecting those archetypes to be things like the cult of speed or the so like a themed around the the fast vehicles themed around around and then one themed around maybe beastnaggers. Or maybe, or and then something themed around uh the like the mech stuff, like the mechs and vehicle, uh more mech vehicles, or something themed around or mechs and the like dreads, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:18

Yeah, dread mob. I mean, there are just two mobs that they previewed, so there is like a dread mob detachment, for example, and there is there was like an aircraft one, like I think it's called Fly Boys. Uh so that so they are represented there.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:32

But it might be something more like that. Well, I think we'll see something more like that. So it could be a case of like a combat-focused army, and then within uh what was or like a more traditional, like or orc arm orc theme of like the goths, but it could be like goths and I don't know, maybe goths and beastnaggers in the same thing if you want to have a more melee focused orc army, or like the or like a boys focused, and then the kind of units you would build for it. So the kind of you so it'd be focusing on the kind of units you would acquire to build that kind of force within that, having the different types of paint schemes. So not just being I I would be surprised if it was going along the lines of this is a bad moons army, or this is the blood act, this is the goths. I think Goths is quite big enough, so it could maybe goth is its own thing, but I could see it being more how you build the kind of style you build you want to build your army with.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:30

True, because we're talking about collecting and archetypes, which is maybe more about that than rather than the cultures themselves. So, yeah, no, that's a fair point. Um, so it'd be interesting to see what they're gonna do because I think whatever template they're doing for this codex, it will be used for all the others as well, basically.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:49

Yeah, on based on and based on the war boss many, whereas like they've clearly painted they've clearly built and painted one to look like a blood axe, yeah, and one to paint what they've got one who looks like a blood axe, very clearly, one who's a bad and but this could be the four archetypes that we're seeing here. Wait, where's my transfer sheet?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:09

See what's on the transfer sheet.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:12

On the transfer sheet, we have Goths, evil sons, and bad moons. That's it. So if there was four, I'd be like, nailed it, boys. I know what the four archetypes are gonna be. Yeah. But I don't I was blood axes not on there then? Blood axes are not on there. There is no imagery for the there's no transfers with blood axes stuff on it. Just bad moons, goths, and evil sons.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:36

That could be the fourth one then. Because that the it appears on the model, like they've done blood axes there. Um there's definitely bad moon, there's definitely Goth.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:50

Yeah. Who knows? It would be interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:52

Yeah, because the the main image the main image is Goth, then there's Bad Yeah, they they they haven't got an Evil Suns one, but then an Evil Suns one would be on it it would be on a bike. It wouldn't be on, yeah, fair. So but then that's specific I I would be more I would be expecting them the archetypes to not be tied specifically to subfactions. A sub faction, as we would call it back in the day. But I am glad to see blood axes getting some more exposure because I I really dig the blood axes especially like the in the in the rules and then in the new detachments. I think it's a pretty short new detachment in the tactical brigade that you can now give a war basically you can give an orc war boss stealth and um stealth and infiltrate. So you can which and which enables you to um and they can it can then join a commando unit. So commandos can have all can be led by war bosses now. But that but that might be because I wasn't paying enough attention in temp and do it back then, but I'm I'm pretty sure it wasn't part of temp. Um but we'll see. But I I do like that that you can do that now and now that because otherwise I've I've always got my trusty commandos led by boss Nick Crock. Uh but now I if you want to do more blood access, and I still maintain even though all of these minis look really cool, I still love the commando kit the best. The commando kit is the coolest kit that's come that has ever come out so far, in my opinion, without question. And I love that you can get uh there is a war moss that you can customize to look other box to look at.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:20

I can't remember the exact order in which stuff was was released, but I feel like the um commandos was almost like the first of the new sort of style of orcs. I mean, I feel like the Armageddon box is like in evolution slightly up, and that the the design is. The commandos were from kill team.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:38

Yes, they were because they faced off against Krieg. They were they they came out the same time as Krieg did.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:42

Yeah, but I feel like but then we had things like um the is it the choppers, the helicopters? What they called is all cops. Oh the deathcopters, aren't they? Often older. Because they're quite new. They came out a few years ago. Um and they they came out around the same time as the commandos, but I can't remember and that was like the first wave of new orcs. But I just because they did boys, they redid the boys kit then I want to say. Um I could be wrong. And I felt that that was around the same sort of time as the commandos. Because then they did the because obviously you got the Octarius uh orc themed terrain back then as well. Um so yeah, I mean this is still probably going back five years maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:26

I'm trying to see when when when was the Kree coming? Yeah, when did they come out? I wanna say 2019, 2020, maybe? 2022.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:38

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:39

Was the commandos. So actually the command I didn't realise how new the commandos are.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:43

I thought they were older. Well, I found a s a handy spreadsheet on Reddit, which I'm assuming I'm taking it as uh as God's eyes truth that that's the real um stuff because yeah, the in 2022 was when they had a new War Boss and the c and the c the commandos came out in 2022. 2021 was when we had all the beast snaggers came out.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:04

Yeah, 2021 was the was the Beast Snaggers. Uh 2020 was Gazco.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:11

Right, yeah. So he was also new.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:13

Yeah. As his his most recent scroll. 2018 was all the the speed freaks with all those vehicles.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:22

And then 2016 was when I was there was the the plane. 2014 was where most of the other stuff all was.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:30

Uh so that's all old style. Yeah, the Deathcopters were more recent than those, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:34

Death Dread and Killer Def Dread and Killer Cans, we have to have news ones of these. That's oh yeah, the colour was 2010.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:40

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:41

So Battle Wagon was tw was 2009. The even the when was the because Captain Badrock was 2009. Stormboys were 2009. So many of these models are so old.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:55

Flashkits was 2014. What else we got it? Yeah. We are getting new war bikes. We've seen those.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:06

Yeah. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:07

The orc the War Banner and Weirboy Weird Boy have just been replaced. But they might they might be replaced. There's so much of the range is really old.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:18

Yeah. Well, that's why it's getting refreshed, right? So there'd be yeah, be pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:22

It's an exciting time to be an orc player film.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:24

Exactly. Plenty of those will be done. Um, yeah, so they've also talked about the stand alone units uh are coming, which we've obviously all seen before. So it's like the war boss, uh, the psycha, the banner, the the dock, uh was it the the truck, the Dacarig, and uh is it the big boss? Yeah, yeah, big boss. Yeah, the big boss is with the page. Um then an interesting concept, a command pack, um, which is a bunch of cards, which are your detachment stuff. So um, I guess it's got uh detachments, stratagems, and enhancements in card form, so you don't need your book and your pages to be open, and then a bunch of tokens to represent things, but who knows what they're actually representing. So some have exclamation marks on don't know what that means. Some have um oh, that's minus one to something, so maybe that's minus one to your battle shock. Another one seems to have a plus one to an exclamation mark. One says something with what looks like movement, so maybe that's when you've advanced, or you can double your movement. Maybe there's ones with lots of skulls, there's one that looks key like you're charging. There's I guess hidden tokens because it's an I with an X in. Uh yeah, I mean a bunch of tokens which might be generic things for core rules, but orc themed, like, oh, this thing's been battle-shocked, uh, or this thing's made an advanced move, and I just want to remember it. Um, or it's orc-specific things, and they maybe relate to um actual orc things as opposed to core rules. Because it yeah, it says double-sided tokens to keep track of important statuses like stat penalties from unit rules. Okay, so stuff like that, I guess. Um, I mean it would be nice if it also included tokens for things like Battle Shock and sort of more generic stuff as well, but maybe they're just sticking with walk stuff. I suspect it'll be quite expensive, but it looks like it's just another pack of cards.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:44

Gamesal are big on their packs of cards.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:46

Yeah, and as you've said, uh cards are just get a bit faffy. I mean, personally, I really like the app for um my detachment. Although saying that when I play AOS, I still use the cards a lot for reference just because I if there's space on a gaming table, it's great. When you're at playing a tournament or something, there's not really much space. But you know, there's normally a little bit of table space where you could put them up.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:10

Yeah, yeah, the only issue with any of these cards is they're only as good as they are correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:16

Yes, so the detachments, if they get updated there or instantly go out of date, that's pointless. Which is why I'd almost rather just for tokens be on their own. Um, but I guess that's not enough of value. But I mean, if it was a token pack and it was a fiver, I'd be like, ah fine, I'll pick it up for whatever army I've got. Um if it's £15 for a set of cards and tokens, maybe, but could could be expensive. Um yeah, as you say, they could go out of date. So that's a good point. Um interesting. Orc dice, apparently, no photo of this, and they just say uh cast in green with red pips and a faction logo on for six. Great, but Kaylee.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:01

I've got a new set of orc dice. I mean, this this these will be interesting because whatever these are, they're the first of the 11th edition dice sets.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:10

True, so you'll get to see uh how many packaging, how many yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:14

I still I've still got a unopened because I've not had a chance to use it yet, the Armageddon orcs dice. So I was just trying to see where they were, but I can't, and they are not immediately uh available to check, but I do have them. Um looking and I was looking forward to using, but now there's a new another new set of dice. So I'll have even more orc dice, and which is handy because if orcs are anything like they used to be, you would need a lot of dice when that you need 20 boys gets into combat.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:39

That is true, and I think currently aren't they selling them in sets of like 14, which is a weirdly low number.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:45

They're a weird quantity.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:47

I think they should be in 20, because that's a squad of ten shooting twice feels quite average for most armies, um, but they're not, because I think when it comes to the product of a square, as you say, sixteen. Yeah, so you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:08

So if you just got a standard squad of ten, that's thirty dice you need No well two packs will get you covered then if they're sixteen each.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:17

But they're not cheap either. They're like twenty-five pounds a pack, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:23

I would say.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:26

I wanna I want to see what they look like. But they're in green this time. They're not black. So we'll be interested.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:32

Green with red pits. Yeah, that will be interesting. And then they talk about the Siege of Deathmire, which is ongoing, uh, which will probably lead us nicely onto the first reveal of the Siege of Deathmire, which we will talk about in a second. Um that's it. So we quickly do a transitional noise onto the first of the Siege of Deathmire reveals. Transitional noise remains.

Bonus (Outriders)

SPEAKER_01 1:46:59

Week one results. Uh Imperials clearly won, it seems. Uh well done then. Uh, but what we got is Space Marine Outriders. Uh, obviously, we've had Outriders for a while. They came out many a year ago um as part of the Indomitus range. Uh they were easy build kits, and I believe they were quite uneasy notoriously to build. Um, this top section along the bike uh had lots of mould line issues, uh, so it was quite difficult. Uh, this set, so you get three um outriders, they l they are not in the Khan style floating, which I think is instantly disappointing to me, because I was hoping that would be a new direction. I've said it many a times, primary should all be hover, they shouldn't have wheels whatsoever, they should just embrace that floating technology. Um, the bikes and the ATV should never have been bikes and ATV, in my opinion. So when they did the new uh Kanon uh jet bike, I thought that was really cool. Uh, we're not getting that here. It's more outriders, but you do get more weapon options. So you get a sergeant uh with a plasma pistol. You can also have a regular guy with a chainsaw, uh, which is uh as to be expected. Uh you can have another guy uh with a chainsaw, uh sort of exactly like your easy build uh box, but you can also have optional heads. So you get some bear heads, you can have a thunder hammer, you can have an axe, and what looks like a mastercrafted or a power sword of some kind. Um and that's it. That's all you get in that um box. Uh so uh did you mention this? Did you mention the scabbard? Uh there was a scabbard for the chainsaw. Does that not come on the easy build? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Because I've seen those before somewhere. So I if they don't come there, then they're in one of the other sets, I believe. For some reason I don't record. I've seen space means with scabbards before, but not I I don't think I think that's completely new. That might be on the heresy bikes, maybe I'm thinking. Um they definitely exist somewhere. Um, but yeah, the scabbards, chainsaw scabbards um is kind of cool. I think my issue with it is one, this is what isn't a new model whatsoever. If this came out six years ago, or whenever the easy builds came out, because normally when you get an easy build, because it's in a box uh with Indomitus, a lot of them got a full complete multipart uh you know within that year. If it came out then, this would have been completely fine. It would have been to it be expected. But what I think most people have now is the people that wanted out. Riders as an experienced gamer already owned Outriders and had to deal with the easy build ones, and of which they had lots of duplicates and had to either like convert them up. Um, so this is sort of maybe appealing to people that maybe didn't have those originally, but I think the poses are I mean it's a very low effort um design, right? The bike sculpt already exists, the legs and the torsos are all the same, and all they've ultimately given us is different heads and different weapons and hat and like arms. Like they haven't changed anything else. There's no cool poses, none of the bikes are like leaning to one side or like the legs are down on the ground, which could have been interesting. There's no different weapon options, like it's just bolters, like there's no there's no like upgrade sprue to turn them into dark wing um for um I mean the raven wing. Right, sorry, right yeah, Raven Wing for Def Watch, not Deaf Watch, Dark Angels. That's it, get my words correct. So like there could have been like different uh you know capes or head options to make them look more uh differing uh themed. When they they do look slightly different, uh but what's also interesting is that there's no uh different marks of armor, these are all primaris space marines. So you're getting your uh Mark X helmets, there's no you know, Mark 7, there's no Mark 7 helmets or shoulder pads or chest pieces like we've seen with the intercessors, which makes me think that this kit was designed a while ago prior to Games Workshop deciding they're gonna do different marks of armour and the new intercessors, and that they've gone, oh we'll just roll these out now. Um it that's my general take. So this is a bit underwhelming, I would say, overall. But if you like Outriders and want more outriders, you will, I guess, be happy.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:55

I think if I I mean they look a bit different to the originals, but the original ones, but I also do kind of think that if if you were going to be giving away additional reveals randomly on a random Monday because of the campaign, ongoing campaign, what better mini to use than this, which isn't gonna have a massive impact the most understanding relationship. I hate saying that because someone that some someone's clearly designed this and they've probably done a lot of hard work that is not necessarily easily obvious. Because this is this I would I would assume this is a much better kit than the current easy build one is.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:37

I just I assume in terms of building it's maybe a lot it goes together a lot better. Like if if the even if they just done that, I suspect lots of people will be happy with it. And like I said, lots of people like the current kit. I've just never been a fan of the bikes in general as a sort of premise for space marines. It just it's just a bit silly, if if I'm honest. But you know, a 40k is full of lots of silly things. But my brain cannot just cannot comprehend space marines on bikes. It's a bit uh it's a bit naff. Uh it doesn't feel very doesn't feel very 40k to me, but uh obviously it does for some people.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:16

What's that Belisarius call me where he's like, give it make it fly? What about this thing? Make it fly, what about this thing? Give it wheels.

unknown 1:53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:24

It's it's exactly that. It's like, no, make it fly, just make it fit in. And they've they've shown you that they can design really good jet bikes. I think maybe they want uh the concept of the jet bikes being really exclusive to uh that one um Ravenwing character and the Which is so bizarre because the con guy now.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:47

Um I mean that we'll say that for all we for all we know, there is another one coming out.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:52

Like a completely different flying jet bike.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:54

There'll be an actual jet and there'll there'll be an actual jet bike unit coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:59

I mean that would be so much cooler than this. But and maybe they would do that and they go, well, we don't want to just completely replace it, so we'll give you both options. Um but uh yeah. I uh also this is in from a release standpoint great for games workshop because uh no 3D sculptors is really copying this because they've already done it, because this kit already exists. It's nothing new that's that people are gonna uh knock off the design and 3D print because they're already doing it. So um it leaves the more exciting stuff to come closer to the release window of the actual miniatures.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:38

It's what you you mentioned how it's only bolters, why isn't there like the option to make them plasma weapons, for example, the Dark Angels? We don't know they don't do that. All we know is what they've told us today, what they shared at this point. Okay, the idea that they have a multi-part kit, the only the only real difference is you can give the sergeant a di which let's be wrong, the only real difference is what they're saying is that the sergeant can get different weapon options. That's basically the only thing that doesn't Part of me feels like feels like, well, why would you refresh the in that this product this product in the range if that's the only change you're making?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:15

Well, my my reasoning is they designed the multi-part kit back with Indomitus and for whatever reason they just never got around to releasing it. And now they've gone, oh, we would just put it out now. Like we've we we we did the RD, we did the design work, let's get our money back by putting it out into the world. Let's do it now, even though it's a couple of years too late. Like I said, if this came out shortly after the Easy Build kits, when Outriders were really good in the game and people were desperate to get hold of whole units of uh six, um this would have uh done really well back then. But now it feels like no one really cares about outriders anymore in in quite the same fashion.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:58

Um I've I I think I've I always think we could still hold out that there would that there may be upgrades within the skip.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:05

Interesting for them, why not just show it off?

SPEAKER_04 1:56:07

Because they're waiting. Why would they want to show off right now, at this point in time, that I mean, for all we know, we've we the we the community messed up. And we're supposed to have the orcs with everything because they're the ones who've got the new codecs and we want to show more about it. But the space marines are winning. So what can we show them? We didn't expect them to win. Show them the outriders, but show them the outriders of the with us, but don't show them everything, the outriders. And we may there may be a new upgrade through coming, or we or this this moot outrider box set might within it additional upgrades, so you could have them um like a white scar variance which have got additional customization options.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:46

No, no, that would be cool. That might be a thing. That might be completely wrong, but so it does say there's cosmetic options, including being able to assemble the bikes leaning left to right as if taking corners. So that was one of my criticisms is they're too static. But it's like they've not shown us that in any of the images, like upright, upright, I think, unless it's leaning very mildly. Also upright. Maybe the maybe that is a lean, but it's a very gentle lean. I want something a bit more extreme.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:17

I'm curious as what that would look like because it could be that the way this bike actually leans, because the model is slightly diff does look a little bit different. Because it was always a weird one because it can't really lean. Yes. Because it wasn't. So what if it like what if when it leans it's like it the wheels are staying where they are, but the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:37

Oh, but the rest because it's like gyroscopic or something. Yeah, or something like that. Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:41

I don't know. I I think I think they have kept that I'm susp I am suspecting that they've left a bit of they've left a bit of powder in the gun still or something. Well they've kept some of their powder dry, like there's more of this to show than just this.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:57

Maybe is what I would say. Okay, that's very that's being very generous, I would say. Which is which is uncharacteristic of me. I would love to think that's the case. I would love to think that's the case.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:09

But based on how this has been revealed, I've I don't I I it it I've it's either slightly disappointing or it's either slightly disappointing and uh um and there's but there's more to come with a with a larger reveal of when then of the new space main range when that happens, or it's just slightly disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:28

Yeah, I I I completely um agree, basically. It'll be interesting to see, yeah. I I think all of our um summaries are this is relatively good, let's say this one, uh, but I want to see more, whether it's more detail, what's on the other side, um, you know, what's this thing made of, more close-up pictures, want to see it in person, and this is what other options are there, if any, or have you shown us all of the options, in which case is a bit disappointing. Um, but it's a bit odd that if these really aren't the leaning ones and there are leaning options available, uh, or maybe different weapon options, whatever, like why wouldn't they have shown us in this, you know, one uh as a release? Because they this is the one normally you get one article per unit. They don't tend to go. Here's a thing we previewed earlier, but here's even more options. Although, caveat, they did show us the Orc Warboss multi-part kit now, and they did also preview it months ago, but that was because of a leak, so they only just wanted to say we had it and it existed. Um, they didn't want to show it off in full. So maybe they're doing that here, and this is meant to be a tease article rather than the full. It could be a lot more exciting.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:41

Yeah, it could be a lot more exciting than it looks right now. I think the the the above reality is it is a little bit oh, okay. It's not uh it's not the most exciting of reveals to come as a result of like of like what's going on with the campaign, but then maybe it's not supposed to be, because right now it's like they're talking about the orcs are the big thing. So orc players get some points in that campaign system.

unknown 2:00:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:05

We want to see more pesky beakies. More more orcs look like basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:11

I want to see uh I want to see a new a new big no, a new uh killer cans or new a new Death Dreads. God forbid they do a bundle of them, where's a death dread and two killer cans in a box? I can see him doing it.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:24

I'll probably so so so week two is fighting in the cloisters, uh it says, uh in terms of the the battle of uh um Armageddon in in in Death Deathmire. Uh so yeah, it'll be next week there'll be another reveal. So we're getting one reveal a week, I guess, for however long this uh goes on for, which I can't remember. Is it three weeks?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:48

So we're three there's three areas, so I'm guessing it's three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:51

A good point. That is a good point, yeah. Because I guess uh secondary battle zone. So I assume that's the one we've done. Yeah, so whatever that zone was. Um uh is that uh the Tempestals Victorum line, maybe that was, which is Imperium. So there's two more to fight over, so as you were right for three weeks. Basically means we need to get a game of Warhammer in and submit some results for the Orcs, uh, Richie. Um so you can you can win that game um in the next two weeks, basically. Um anyway, uh anything else you want to say before we move on?

SPEAKER_04 2:01:23

Uh well, only because this this the we we are fighting over the hive on arm again. I finished reading the hive, I was finished listening to the hive audiobook this week. It's incredible. I highly recommend it to everybody who's into the hop into Warma 40,000.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:37

Oh true, but that's a generic hive, not a hive on armaged.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:40

It is not a generic, it it is hive sacramentus. It is the it is the hive.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:46

Where's that?

SPEAKER_04 2:01:48

On on Sacramento.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:50

Oh, okay. Not on Armageddon, though.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:52

It's not on Armageddon, though.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:53

It's a hive, it's a hive. But it's a hive.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:56

But it's the hive all that is.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:58

Okay, nice. And it's good. Plenty be your light, brother. Great. We'll have to do we're I'll have to listen to it and then we can do a book club episode where we where we talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:09

Some people some people will appreciate that reference. Other others will be like, what's he talking about?

SPEAKER_01 2:02:14

I'm sh I'm sure. I'm sure. Anyway, we're we're with that said we'll go on to uh the next section uh with a trans a transitional noise. Uh

Necromunda Skirmish

SPEAKER_01 2:02:28

welcome back. So the underhive. Uh so interestingly, Necromunda is coming with a reboot of sorts. It comes with a brand new core set. It's called Necromunda Skirmish.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:41

Which is a but wait, wait, wait. Sorry for the jump. It is called Warhammer Necromunda Skirmish.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:48

Uh all important, have that Warhammer.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:51

Well, because Warhammer's not been at the top of the logo before, and now it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:55

Oh, okay. Yeah, no, good, good, good catch. I guess because everything needs to be branded Warhammer, uh, basically. And every Necromunda box has always had a different uh sort of uh tagline. So we started off with Necromunda Underhive, then we had, I think, uh, was it Necromunda Ash Waste or was it something else and then Ashwac? I feel like it was uh Necromonda.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:21

And then Ash Waste was like a proper big expansion because they had that's what they added in all the additional walls.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:26

Yes, because you had Necromunda Underhive, which started off with just the sort of card tiles, then they introduced more rules with um some verticality, which is where the Zoom Mortalis stuff came in. Then they gave you Ash Waste, which was out in the desert. Then I think the next one off that was the last one, which was the hive that's really ruined.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:48

They had I think they had Hive War in the middle. Because the first the original box was Escher versus Goliath. Yes, which is where it has war is the current what is what is the s sort of current it's means I was talking about was the like the most recent big start box, as it were. That was Escher versus Delac.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:10

And then there was Hive Secundus.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:13

Hive Secundus, yeah, which is the the derelict one with the sort of uh mutated gene stealers uh basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:19

Yeah, sort of gene stealers are taken over. And there's also the closest like spire hunters from the Vansar.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:26

Yeah, and what was good about all of them, and the good thing that I always loved historically with Heresy and uh you know the uh specialist games department was that the games never really had new additions, or they did, but it was very rare. So the addition cycle of a heresy one lasted forever, but then heresy 2.0 lasted no time at all, and now we're on heresy 3. Uh Blood Bowl's been going through several iterations, um, and that cycle's been getting quicker and quicker, it seems. Uh, and then Necromunda's always had these big boxes, but they've never really invalidated all the other rules. They've updated things occasionally, but it basically meant if you were playing Ash Race, you were playing almost like its own campaign system. But the core rules of Necromundor were the same pretty much between the very first box set, which was uh N17, I think, is when it came out. So uh 2017 is when that came out, all the way through to Secundus, pretty much the same rules, although they did release a separate core rule book recently, like a few years ago, which was slightly updated with a few things. But the problem with it was that you had so many different books of campaign books that it was a bit overwhelming if you wanted to collect them all, or you just didn't really know where to start. And there was a lot of third-party uh sites that really helped uh with that in terms of looking up the rules, or um, like Munda Manager, which was running a campaign that was really great when we did our Netcommander campaign. Uh, you've done a you've done two Netcommander campaigns. I've done one, I got to join on the second one, uh, which we never quite finished, sadly, but it was really enjoyable. Um, and it feels like this is the first time where this is a reboot of the core rules. Um, so it'd be interesting to see. They say they talked about streamlining the rules. Um, and I I think the general consensus I've seen online is no one wants a new edition. Uh, people like me enjoy the fact that the game is going to be the same and all the books are still valid, uh, even if it's a bit of a mess to find things. I'm sure there will be people that are positive about this. Uh, let's have a little dive in in terms of what you get. So you get two new gangs, so you get Esher and Goliath, but they're not just the generic ones, they're sort of more specialized. So you get Esher Blades of the Matriarch and the Goliath Forge Smelters. So you get eight plastic miniatures in each one, uh, and they basically got different stuff. To me, these are basically kill teams of uh the gangs, where each model is much more unique, but each model is pre-built in a set monopose way, whereas the old kits were much more versatile in terms of how you built them and you could load them. Um, you could do your loadout in a bunch of uh different uh ways. Uh so you've I love these sculpts by the way of the Escher. So the first girl, she's got old punk haircut with feathers in, she's got a a whip, uh, and looks like she's gonna grab her pistol. You've got another lady with like these two spiked gauntlets, so she's gonna punch someone to death. Uh then we've got uh one with a needle pistol and a pistol rifle or needle rifle. You would know the terms because you play Esher, don't you? I do.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:56

So she's got she's got the well the crouching down one's got a needle rifle. Oh, it's a needle rifle. The Sally one has got a I'm guessing a chem stim attached to her arm and a needle pistol in her hand.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:10

Nice. And then, yeah, she's got like a rebreather of some kind as well, and like a dagger. Uh then the next slot, uh, a lady with an eye patch is always cool. Um, she sort of feels a bit of a leader to me. She's got a needle pistol as well, and then whoever this is, again with an absolutely amazing coloured mohawk, uh, but two auto pistols that are belt fed. But belt fed from a backpack. Phenomenal. Love uh this. I I sort of want this model uh just to kit bash or you use those as I these are great.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:45

You you mentioned that these are monopose. If they are, they are there is two, they're basically two poses. There's two poses. Well, no, there's there's four sets of poses.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:55

And with alternate bits, which is exactly what they've been doing with kilting quite a lot, to be fair. So is it repeat repeating like legs?

SPEAKER_04 2:09:03

So if you look at so the the easiest examples is the one we're just looking at, the girl with who's got her two pistols and her foot on the ammo crate.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:10

If you go twice to the left, the g that's the same pose as the girl with the whip.

SPEAKER_06 2:09:15

Oh, but it's on a rock in stone. Oh, good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:19

Which to be fair is quite so I'm quite I'm curious I'm curious I think they've not gone into too many details, but I'm guessing these are actually quite similar to the existing sets where there's lots of customization for like the arms, and you can essentially use put whatever arms you want onto whatever the mini the minis are. Because then there's two there's two poses where she's down on one knee, um, but they're quite different. They the both of the poses are very different. One of them is the girl with the sniper the needle rifle. Oh, I see. She's reloading, and the other one has got a shotgun. So I I suspect I think these will be fully c I think these will be fully at custom, like mix and match still with the existing kits.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:57

I possibly possibly, yeah. So there's a a lady with like a flamer uh weapon of some kind, and another one with like a servo arm, and she's crashing and she's got a shotgun and what looks like a stim of some kind or a needle, don't know. Um so a lot of the kill teams are multi-part builds where they reuse some of the legs and torsos, but the hands, the head, and the weapons tend to be um swappable. But you basically, in the instructions, it's build option A or B, that's your choice. None of the other parts are compatible, and the way the joins are, you can't easily swap out arms and things like that. Whereas I suspect the older kits are much more here's a torso, here's some legs, here's some heads, swap your hands, and most of the arms are compatible with most of the torsos. Um, I don't think these will be, but I mean who knows for sure. It'll be I d I I I disagree.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:59

I think these will be having put together lots of Eshers and done lots of customization with my Escher gangs, my suspicion is that these are actually gonna the only the only one which which doesn't look like it's gonna be too customizable in terms of the arms. Um and because on most of the kits you on on a lot of the previous Escher kits you've had a a selection of legs available, yeah, one or two torsos that you can use, and then the arms are kind of mixed and match as much as you like. The only one of these that looks like it might not be mixed and matchable is the one that you thought was the captain with the eye patch girl. Oh yeah. She's got like the cloak over her. That's the only one that kind of looks like it wouldn't be able to have whatever arms you wanted on it. Even even like the the one which has got the with the two pistols there, that we can the the two auto pistols as you can see there. That's really cool pose, but I you could in theory still put whatever arms you would want on that model. It would be hard to put maybe it would be hard to put those arms onto any other model, yes, potentially. Yeah. But a lot of a lot of these still look like you'd be able to you could use whatever you wanted on the space.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:06

Yeah, I guess it's ultimately down to how they've split up the model on the sprue. So it might be is compatible, it might be it's not. I mean, the specialist games department, especially if you look at heresy, are very good at making everything compatible with everything else, especially when it comes to the space marines in heresy. The games workshop like Kill Team tend to make everything monopose, and you go, here's option A, here's option B, that's streamline it, make it as easy as possible for you to build. But then to convert things up, you've got to just cut things up, basically, or assemble it, then cut it up, um, and use green stuff and stuff. Where so potentially these are compatible. That would be very cool if it's like.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:51

I'm just saying that as yeah, I'm saying as I sort of run with Escher gangs before and like real almost like not religiously sounds wrong, but yeah, it's definitely like thinking a purist approach to being WYSIWYG for at all my gang upgrades and changes and deaths. Yeah. Um I it looks to me like the Escher gang in this set um will be fully cut will will work fully all the other the existing kits you've got. So you could put these guns and these guns and weapons on the previous models and vice versa. Is my assumption. You'd hope so, yeah. That's what I that's why I definitely hope so. Uh I don't see any reason why that's it.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:27

Because you remember, well we'll get to it later. So there was the standard gangs, then there was like these upgrade sets which gave you sort of specialist models plus juves, and I don't know how cross-compatible those models were because the Jews and the bigger guys were for Escher, they were completely they were completely interchangeable. Oh, okay. Alright, so maybe maybe these will be then. Um because I've never got one of those upgrade boxes, and often they did so they did resin weapon upgrades originally and head options, and then they did plastic sets of those upgrades where they s mostly did the same for the resins, but not always. Um and so yeah, in theory, then you could have some great customization. Uh, they also talk about in the box you're gonna get uh double-sided playmat, uh dice, range ruler, templates, condition and status markers, and gang tactics and campaign cards, which we'll see uh later on. And then for the Goliaths, these are very similar to the originals, but again, they've almost got like a bit of a kill team spin on it, where each one's a bit more a unique individual character. Um, whereas, and I think that this is the thing that's worth saying is when it comes to building that box set of the original Goliaths and Eshes, it's a bit daunting because you have all these choices. It's because it's just a bunch of torsos and a bunch of different weapon options, and you can build them all to have say shotguns or or to have pistols on combat weapons, but you kind of need to play the game a few times to work out what your playstyle is, and you need to sort of understand what's good, or you need to at least build a gang with the correct points limits or creds um to then actually know how you should be building your models. If you just go and build them, if I remember rightly, if you built the original core box set as per the instructions, you didn't have the right models or a legal loadout to create your first gang. You that you you still needed even more, you needed to change uh the weapons out. Whereas these just come as pick an option, um, you know, or they just come as they are. So it's less thinking up front in terms of how you want to do them. You got a guy with a giant um axe, like an executioner style axe. Uh, you've got a guy with a pistol and some. Whoa, that's I'm pretty sure that's a gull.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:50

That's a lady film.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:52

Is it a lady? Oh, are you? I'm pretty sure that's a lady one. Uh you don't see Lady Goliaths that often. The Jew's, I think, had some ladies in. I mean I'm Goliaths used to be uh traditionally an all male gang, and Eshers were all ladies. Um, but I think you're right, based on the um the size and the size, not like the physical size. Oh, yeah, it's a bit smaller. I assumed it was a juve then. It was just a young lad, a wee whippersnapper, but maybe you're right, it is a lady. Um she has a sort of needle uh arm stim thing, maybe it's a medical thing. Uh maybe it's a poison weapon.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:33

I'm assuming it's not medicinal. I'm assuming it's like a chem administrator or something. But then one of the eshers has something similar. So I'm curious as to what that is, because that's something different that I'm not familiar with in in as like being a ready uh weapon option.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:46

I mean, if if it's a lady and they've given they've made her the medical class, that is an awful trope in gaming. Uh but it's uh it'd be interesting to see uh what it is. In fact, they might say here No, they don't. They just they just let you speculate to your heart's content.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:01

They say precious little.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:02

There's um definitely a guy with a big oversized heavy stubber that he's uh wielding. Uh he's got sort of a Mad Max style horse bite in his mouth, um, which is interesting. And then there's a guy with a hand flame. You're missing the Mohawk of Bullets. Oh, it's bullets, isn't it? Oh, you are right. Yeah, wow. Yeah, the Mohawks in the Garf gang are completely bonkers. Uh a Mohawk of Bullets, that is impressive. Peak Mad Max, if you ask me. Um, yeah, a guy with a flamer on one hand, because he's so tough.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:34

I love that flame. That's a retro-looking flamer. That's a nozzle-looking flamer.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:39

Um, yeah, there are uh the Sisters of Silence have that as well, sort of style nozzle and that plastic kit, which is probably due to be redone at some point. Um we also have a weird-looking nozzle. I assume this is like a chem throw or something. Um I love the skull helmet of the top and the goatee. Um he's a very cool uh sculpt. Um, another person that looks a bit like a medical person, because he's got another uh like the one of the eshers, a sort of servo arm uh with a needle. Uh but he's also got um kind of um yeah, some kind of like fist thing that we've got a knuckle duster. Knuckle duster and a hammer, maybe a bit hard to tell what the other weapon is. I'm guessing it's some kind of slugger. Oh yes, I think it's a pistol, you're right, yeah, or slugger uh for them, you're right. Um but you're just looking down at it, so it's a bit hard to tell. Um and then lastly you've got a weird uh sort of he almost looks like one of the stimmers but a bit smaller, but he's got these two hook um hooks for hands, uh, and then a lady who's got some kind of weird arc rifle weapon of some description. Um if she was bald, she would really remind me of uh the lady in Aliens. Uh the um I think she was uh meant to be like a um yeah, I can't remember. She was carrying the big heavy weapon. If you if you remember the one.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:19

Oh, you mean John Connor John Connor's foster mum?

SPEAKER_01 2:19:23

Uh yes, yes, yes, yeah, her. Yeah. That's the one. That was a deep cut reference.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:31

That was a deep reference there.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:32

But yes, you are correct. Yeah, her. Um looks a bit like her with the bandana on and stuff. If you got rid of the Mohawk.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:37

Yeah, but the uh I I am less familiar with building Goliaths. But my feeling is these are less there's less freedom in cut in custom some of these I feel slightly less freedom in customisation as the Eshers do. Most of these customers are. Especially the guy with hook hands. Yeah. Well he's the same pose, he's the same core mini as the guy with the giant axe as well. Um, so I don't know if they are a specific subclass, maybe, and that they that's because they are they do look to be significantly bigger than everything else.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:13

There were and we'll see it later on. I think they were called stimmers, I want to say. I could be wrong, where they were bigger guys than the regular guys, but they don't but th those were much bigger. These sort of look more standard size. They don't look that I mean they are actually this guy is a lot more muscular than the regular ones. Um, but the other guys looked much huger, I thought. Um but overall, what are your thoughts on the Goliaths and Eshers? Like, do you like the sculpts?

SPEAKER_04 2:20:46

I l I love the Eshers. I'm a big fan of Ashes was just like the first gang that I started playing with because I bought the box and I split it with a friend and they took the Goliaths and I took the Eshers. And they've been so much fun to play with. And like their and their playstyle has been really fun to lean into. Gas everyone to death. Just yeah, well gas everyone. Yeah, well that that's when I oh that's that's the thing for Eshers using gas weapons. Um so you don't care so much about what I don't care what armor you're wearing, I'm just gonna throw gas at you and hope you don't choke to death. Uh or using uh like toxin weapons is really interesting as a as as a gang. I've I have had a lot of fun playing with them. What's annoys me is I was hoping I was thinking for my next gang, I won't do Escher. But these minis, it's very specific, like the two the Akimbo mini, where she's got the two autopistols being behind. Yeah, that one's that's amazing. So I'm like, I maybe I'll maybe I'll go Escher again if we do another campaign. But I do like the Goliaths too, the Goliaths look really cool. Um I can't wait to see what the the other gangs all look like if they're gonna if they're gonna give each gang like a new kind of treatment like this.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:51

I think so. So um if we go down.

SPEAKER_04 2:21:55

They look these look fantastic. Um the mi I mean of this new release like these the minis I've got no issues with whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:03

Yeah, the the models look fantastic. Um they say so new core rules which update the game to be quicker and more streamlined, which no one really wants, I think, in Necromunda, but more balanced, which people probably do want because the game is notoriously unbalanced. Um campaigns have been tweaked over more flexibility to players, and dice rolls have been changed so each role in the game matters. I mean, I thought each game in already matters in terms of roles. Yeah, it's it's a really weird one. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 2:22:31

Yeah, that statement's really weird when it's talking having yeah, making which dice rolls didn't matter in the past.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:40

Unless it was you were constantly rolling and never hitting and things like that. So or maybe they would they're talking about things like the after action tables because uh they're not having enough impact. So it's like maybe things are a bit more extreme in terms of what they're what they're gonna be able to do.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:03

Um my hope is that whoever wrote this article just did it big with not much information. So yeah, it's gonna be more quicker. People yeah, people like things that are quicker, but yeah, quicker, streamline, balance, those seem like generically good things to say about something. That's what we're putting inside.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:18

I think there are probably some rules that you can consolidate or streamline because they're so rare, they don't need to be that complicated. Um, and there's a lot of rules to learn, but a lot of people like the crunch of the rules once you learn it. I think for Russ it's very difficult to get into because the rules are so different from modern 40k. We play 40k, we play Age of Sigma as like our two main games. This is like our third system on top of that. I've occasionally played quite a bit of kill team. Uh, I think you and Dan have probably played more Spearhead. I've played a bit of Spearhead, although that's very similar to you know Age of Sigma main rules. Um, we all play a lot of Warhammer games, um, and having multiple systems in your head is difficult. So having it being a little bit more streamlined is probably more beneficial to us. But most people who play Necromunda, I think pretty much just play Necromunda. The ones that are really into it that are your big whales that spend all your money, just play Necromunda um and maybe dabble in the other systems. So they probably don't want it to be streamlined. Um, the fact it's called Necromunda Skirmish definitely implies that it's sort of leaning into that, and the boxes that we see later lean into that as well. Um what's interesting is they're saying it's all being available separately, but these tokens here are plastic rather than cardboard, um, which I guess is a nice sort of quality of life because the card would wear down from a lot of play. Um, but the templates are the same, and the you know, the the the the hard plastic rulers are similar in design to the ones from Scaventide. Um that's different that's different.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:02

We've not had those before in Necromunda.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:04

We we've not had exactly those ones, uh, and we've not had them in Necromunda before. I sort of I kind of wish they would update the templates. Um not necessarily for Necromunda.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:14

Those are classic templates for classic flame template. Don't you take it away from us?

SPEAKER_01 2:25:19

But the way I would always describe it is the templates for um old world and Horace Heresy, all the models have gotten bigger, but the templates have stayed the same size, so therefore gotten less effective. Necromundra is Necromundor. Necromundra doesn't matter, so I don't have a problem with it. Personally, you could have updated the design of what's on it to maybe look a bit more necromundary-y um in terms of the etching on it, but size-wise, not a problem, it stayed the same. But for the other systems, like heresy, they need to get bigger, personally. Um, you get some this is also really exciting. Some Zone Mortalis ruins, uh ruined Factoria pipes for your gangers to fight over. These are perfect for kill team. Uh these are perfect for uh boarding actions, which I have a lot of terrain for. So I would love to get these just to decorate my um uh boarding actions terrain, which I want to also be compatible with uh Necromundra as well. So that's cool. They show off a bunch more, so there's like a sort of a generator big uh pipe thing, as if you're you're brewing some gin or something. Uh then you've got some offshoot pipes um uh from it. There's like a sort of spinning electric wheel with some servo screens. Uh, there's a mini steps that go up and over the pipes as well, and you've got pipes that go in all sorts of different directions, very in keeping with the existing uh terrain that they've done. Some of them, like the spinning wheel piece, is very similar to what they've done for uh boarding actions. Some of that terrain is very similar to that. So I think this is all very uh exciting, and it looks all very cross-compatible with I can't remember what it was called. There was a set in Netcommander which was this big, almost uh like a four-way screen. Uh, and it looks like these things would actually plug into that, I think, in terms of it. Looks like it's designed to be compatible with their existing uh terrain, basically. Um but yeah, the these things here all look phenomenal, like so much detail. Um yeah, they look like they'd be great for playing. What's your take on the terrain?

SPEAKER_04 2:27:42

I'm intrigued in like the w what they're planning for the game system as a whole with this kind of so it feels like they're trying to make it bigger and more successful, maybe when they're talking about simplifying or making it um the the game, making it quicker, et cetera. Especially looking at what they're giving you in the box now. That you're getting you're getting like a map and you're getting some to and you're getting some training.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:07

It's a very different look to how it's most games have then come underlooked of it. Yeah, because I mean this so this one uh at the top, and I I assume this is the playmat that you get, is a little bit similar to the tiles uh that you originally got, but the tiles were based on the mortalis, so they were rooms, um, so they had more like distinct entrances and walls, whereas this looks like it's completely open, and then there's a couple of like blocked out black ones, which kind of give the impression that they're falling away into nothingness. So you've basically got a giant playmat, which is completely open. Some squares are blocked off and basically impassable terrain, and then you're just having some light, very light scattered terrain on top to sort of block line of sight, uh, which is a bit more modular, but nowhere near as interesting, uh, but much more open and less restrictive, and there's no verticality to it, but all of this stuff will be compatible with the older stuff. Um so I assume they've just done that for the purposes of the intro box, basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:20

I I I like it a lot because I think it gives a different w in the video when they show it, it does it does almost it look I think some of the imagery they use in the video in the trailer aren't the best because it almost looks a bit sparse. Yes. Because it's because it's quite a large mat and there's not much they put on on the on that when they do the in the video. But I do like the idea of changing the game so it doesn't because after you play a few cards two sort of games, it does become all very zone mortaless-y. You're fighting over the same corridor so you're always always running through corridors, it's always very cramped. I wonder if this is trying to make a different style to what that how a game's supposed to play out. Well and to that, give it a different look and feel. Yeah, because originally that's too new cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:05

I mean, I think that could be any fun. Because originally it was the square tar the square cardboard tiles, then it was the sector mechanicus terrain came out specifically for well no, it came out for Vortiguay, but then Netcommander basically adopted it, and then you have this much more open themed stuff, but then they did the Zoom Mortalis and they've just leant into that ever since. Um so if you have this with sector mechanicus terrain, it would be verticality but much more open, I think. Whereas I think the Zone Mortalis stuff is a little bit cramped and too confined sometimes, at least the way lots of people build it, because they don't want to make it shooting galleries. Um, I think what is interesting actually in this uh photo down below, uh you can see there's an extra Goliath hanging out at the back that is completely different from all the others. So this is clearly an extra character uh that it might be completely new. He might just be an alternative build that we've not seen in the ones that they've previewed. Um because he's completely topless, which is a bit like the hook guy, but the arm is sort of he's holding something over his shoulders. Uh so that's that's kind of interesting. He does look a bit different, I don't recognise that. I think he's gonna be an extra character coming along. Um I would say the general thesis of how uh specialist games have been working. Um they they started off doing uh some very core pl things in plastic, like the uh like the gangs, um, or the you know space means for heresy. Everything else was in resin upgrades, and over time everything is shifting to plastic, in part I think due to you know taxes, due to environmental you know levies on resin, but also the games are big enough to sustain plastic now, and plastic so much more profitable. There's uh because it's all you know automated as a process, it's whereas resin casting is a much more hand um cast process. Uh it it you know, there's only so much you can do, and there's a lot of terrible quality control around it as well, in comparison to the stuff in plastic. So I think the shift we're now seeing, especially in like Horace RC third edition, everything's coming in plastic. Um like even with the old world, all the new stuff predominantly in plastic, uh, very few characters in uh resin, but some in resin they they still do that, and I think that's what we'd be seeing with Necromunda. The um the Lord, whoever it was, uh look um looked like he was in an old man that was dead. He was, I think, the first character um in that secundus campaign to uh be in plastic. He was the first Necromondra character in plastic, and I think we'll see that going forwards as well, uh basically. Um then we get the Necromanda gang tactic cards and campaign and scenario cards, which historically always sell out and never come back for forever almost. Um so these will be if you want to play Necromanda on a regular basis, these will be quite useful. Um I remember rightly, there are like third-party places where you can sort of do print on demand and or or your own ones.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:23

The tactics, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:33:25

For the campaign and scenario cards, that's a new thing. I think I'm pretty sure that's new. Uh in the new world of everything has to be in a card deck. Everything has to be in a card deck. Uh that's what worries me about this is I'm not I'm I am I've yet to be convinced that that's a good way of the game systems being, yet they're all running with it, even before it's been proven.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:46

Is it because it means you can be like, cool, I've shuffled my deployment zone and here's this, and then I've shuffled my mission and it's this, and here's a twist. Because that gives you more options than a standard here's one or two pages. Describing a mission, and that is the same mission every single time you play it, other than maybe the deployment zones. I will say this might give you more randomness, basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:12

What I will say is that having to flick between so many different pages and camp in the in the books or what the campaign missions are and how they work. This could be really good and helpful for Necromunda. Assuming if I think if the if the cards is like here is one card, and on that card it has everything you need to know about the mission you're playing on on both sides on both sides of it, that could be really helpful than flicking through multiple books all the time. Could be no one. That was one of the biggest challenges. Yeah. Playing a lot of Necromunda was how many books you needed, and then flicking between them. So I could say I'm sorry, when I'll when the last big campaign I was playing, it's like I'll have my Escher book, I'll have the core book, and then I'll have the book which has got the campaign missions we're doing. That's a that's a lot just to have on the table to be flicking in between. But also to the extent I had to have a PDF of the rule book. Yeah. Which I legally own the main book, if any of what has it going. So yeah, I do have the actual book. But it was so much easier to have a PDF of the book and search for the key words I'm looking for if I'm trying to find them all. Yes. Um that's why that's why I had that. So if the I I am I'm I want to be I I I stand by what I said. I'm unconvinced by everything switching over to card decks so far in Games Workshop campaign systems. However, I am hopeful maybe this could be really good for Necromanda because that was a problem. That is one of the problems that I feel it does need to solve is how many different books there are. Having all the having your the mission rules in like easily accessible places, I think is a very good thing. So I'm hoping that's what this is.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:46

Yeah, I think yeah, I would say the specialist games department in general has a terrible record for layout of rules, stuff being scattered everywhere. And like I said, when we're playing the last uh campaign system, you would roll on a table, it would tell you to play a mission, and you did not know if that mission was in the campaign book or one of the core missions in the core book, and you would be spending 10 minutes flicking back and forth going, I can't find it anywhere. It's in one of these two books. Where is it? Um so stuff like that was bad.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:24

To be fair, that was partly because Spike picked a really awkward campaign for us to be doing. Oh, okay. Maybe maybe that's his fault then. I wouldn't say it was his fault because it was because we were doing the oh Dark Uprising. We were doing the Dark Uprising campaign where there's different versions of the Dark Uprising campaign. Because there's the there is the dark, there is the sound. This would be relevant to nerds. There's the because Dark Uprising was an issue, a version of the game. Yeah, but like a big box. There's a big box called Dark Uprising, forget what was in it, but it had a set of the rules and the Dark Uprising campaign in it.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:02

That campaign was then enforcers and uh not fleshy to course the corpse grinders. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:10

So that was one of the that but that so that and that was the original Dark Uprising campaign, which was very streamlined, designed just so you're using the monies in that box. There was it was then an updated version of that you of that campaign which was used in the there was a book.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:30

I want to say it was like out of the wisdom something or other, but it was the one that I had to buy because it had the um the renegade cult books and Gene Steeler cult uh in it, basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:44

Um no, it didn't come under Apocrypha.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:48

Apocrypha uh no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:50

Yeah, it was the Apocrypha. Well, okay, so Apocrypha was definitely the book because that had I'm pretty sure that's the book that also that had a version of the Dark Uprising campaign in it.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:02

No, it was it was it was definitely the one that with the Chaos Cults in because that's the one I had, and it was in there as well. Okay, and there was multiple ones in because I didn't have Apocrypha, but some rules were also in there as well, I think, but that was like big guys.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:15

Yeah, we we made w we were playing a fun campaign, but it but the the the where its rules were was split over different books and it was quite hard to find.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:24

And I think that is a bit of a problem, and I think the wording and language around rules, like I think mainline games workshop has gone on leaps and strides and maybe too far in that kind of legal ease of how things are overly prescribed.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:42

But it can you define for me what once means, Phil?

SPEAKER_01 2:38:45

Exactly, I can, and I can describe to you what table quarters is. But in a way, it mitigates all sort of weird nuances where you go, what happens, whereas Necromunda doesn't have any of that, and you get those of oh well what happens when A happens and B happens at the same time? Who knows? There's no answer, and there was never any FAQs about it. And the language and layout of the rules wasn't ever that great. Uh, I would prefer a sort of happy medium between sort of nicely laid out and designed rules, but with still nice humanized language that the Necromanda stuff used uh rather than the legalese of 40k. Um, so I think this would be good. I think, as we've said many times, cards take up lots of space, but the convenience of having them, like you know, just needing one or two cards in front of you rather than a book that you've got to flip to and you've got to lay it open, takes up a lot of space on a gaming table. So potentially these cards are gonna be quite interesting um and useful. Uh, you then get some gang books, um, which I would be hesitant to buy because these will normally be invalidated immediately. So this is Gangs of the Underhive, which is all your gangs, and Gangs of the Outlands, which is all your more uh esoteric ones. So the Gangs of the Underhive are the generic original ones like you know, Goliath, Escher, Warlock, etc., and then you know, your squat prospectors. I hope your Chaos Colts and Gene Stealers will be in Gangs of the Outlander, not relegated to a PDF. But um so they're hopefully being there. But then traditionally we've always had the House of Books, which is your dedicated like codex for your gang, which I suspect might still come at some point. Um so if you're desperate to play Necromonda, sure pick these up. Uh but if you can hold off a few months to a year, uh maybe do that. I mean, I don't know. It depends on how regularly you play Necromanda.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:46

Um we don't we don't know what one thing that they haven't really made clear is what they're at the new vision for what how the game is going to be, what what sort of changes they're making to the game and what that the what the the future vision is. All we know is that I mean if we go on to like the the next thing they show us, they show in the preview is that they're basically taking all the existing minis and repackaging them to have less to take up less shelf space. Which suggests that they are that they're going to look to be potentially adding newer gangs or having large like larger kind of replacements to it or new things coming in. They're definitely streamlining everything. Yes, all the old books are getting rid of and all these within these new boxes. So we we've got Escher on the screen right now. Yes, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:41:32

So it's basically there, it's all in boxes. Yeah, it's it's all in one place. So you buy your gang and you don't so traditionally you buy your gang, you then buy the gang like upgrade sprue, which has all your weapon options, extra weapon options, and then you buy like the extra kind of specialist gangs, which are like your Jews, um, and then these like ladies in the back uh that look different, and the ones with the little animals, like they're all your kind of cool specialists, uh, which was a separate box before, but now it's saying that you get um you get your selection of fighters, including Leesers, Champions, Gangers, which is your generic box, and I think your prospects were the extra box, and then you have your weapons and upgrade frame, uh, which was also an extra box. So all three things are in one. Um, to me, this is like the kill teamification uh or combat patrol of Necromunda. Um we haven't really seen it with Heresy, but you definitely you're seeing it in this reveals, which we maybe get onto at some point with uh the old world, where old world are doing these like mini starter boxes, like your combat patrols for old world. This is like your combat patrol for Necromunda, where you just get your gang all in one place and they've done it for all your main gangs. So you've got Esher, you've got Goliath. Uh see these two here are the big guys. Um yeah, they came in the in like the specialist. Which I think, yeah, of the stimmers. Maybe they're not hugely different, but they feel like they're still bigger than the guy with the axe that we saw earlier.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:11

But there are even bigger ones available currently in Oda Forge World one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:17

The resin one is an even bigger guy. Um then we've got obviously uh the Orlocks, uh the Van Sar, uh Caldo uh with the extra flamer guys. Uh uh. I've forgotten the name, Dilak, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:39

Um I mean I think these are really cool boxes because well I think they're cool in multiple ways. One, they're cool as a consumer, yeah, because you get essentially your starter box, which is never enough.

unknown 2:43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:50

Because especially if you if you if you're making a new gang now, you're not the the original the initial starter box, if you like Esher for example, it gives you Jews and gangers, which are fine, but you really want to be used, but you also want to have access to um oh the Death Maidens and the and the Wild Runners.

SPEAKER_01 2:44:09

Oh yeah, because they're the ones at the back, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:44:11

Yeah, you want to have access to them, and there's also extra weapons in there. So the fact that in if what the the way it's described is from an airship perspective, you'll get the standard box of the gangs and the Jews, the expansion box, which has the the death maidens and the wild runners, and their little pet things, plus you'll get the upgrade spoo upgrade spew as well. So you're kind of set then that you can you can just run a campaign because you're not gonna use all those minis in the it's a curious way of visualizing it because you will not have that many models in the starting gang you have, so you will build up to over time. But the idea that you can just buy this box and you're then set for what you want to do, you'll you'll have enough minis that you can s you can mess up someone and then stuff mess up some. Well, I built this terribly, it's not got the right weapons. You'll have enough spares to do that. I think these are cool boxes from a consumer perspective. I also think it's interesting from Games Workshop's perspective because this is effectively taking three boxes that were on the shelf, repackage them into one box.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:06

But I guess uh a box that's gonna be like a hundred quid, right? No, surely not. Well, here's the thing. I say they're not gonna Will they sneakily put in a price hike? Because I imagine the re the two gang of boxes are probably £35 each, and the upgrade spruce probably £15 each. So you're almost there, and then they've gone oh inflation.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:30

Well, if if it if if you just went into the uh the store today to buy that the equivalent of this usure box, that's two of the gang boxes, that's £32.50 each, so that's £65. Then plus the weapons and upgrades is £18.50, so it was £65. Wait, $85.50 is that's £83.50. So they'll probably sell these. I would assume they'll sell these for eight, maybe $85. If they chose $100, that's taken slightly taken the mega. So I would say £85 or lower is what these boxes would be. But I feel like these are like of like a legacy, not not legacy, like it's no longer a thing. It's like because they'll be releasing the newer but the newer gangs as we assume with Esher and Dives. Yes. Those would be our lower price point.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:16

This is this was my point. This is sort of because this isn't an all-in-one place to get your whole gang, because now there's those new Esher models. And I sort of have the impression that they're gonna be like these are the old gang with your full customization. Uh, do what you want with it if you want to play that old version of Necromander. But you could just buy your new Esher gang. I don't know if you scroll it or not, which will get you these guys, which is your eight models. That's it. That's what they come with. They're presets like kill team, those models come come with those things, and that's your gang, and that's a nice simple way of playing, and this gang and you will be automatically balanced with your Goliath gang or your new Orlock gang. You don't need to worry about anything else, just put them down and play. I suspect maybe that is the direction they're trying to push Necromondus Skirmish to be in. I I sort of worry that that is would be the case, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's just here's a sort of a new custom gang, and maybe it gives them because this way they they can do several different versions of Escher gangs, and that's sort of the problem once they've built a once they've made the Escher Gang box, because it's so customizable, you build it once, you don't really need to build it again. But if you've each time, each every addition, let's say every three years of Necromunda, they go, Yeah, here's a new Esher gang with different weapons and cool cool loadouts. Um all the others are still compatible, but and the and maybe you can even mix and match them, but each one's a sort of a preset character with its own skills. It means they can keep selling you that same gang that you love because you you buy into a gang like you maybe buy into a 40k army. Maybe that's their logic behind it. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:17

As I said before, I disagree with you. I think these will be customizable. I think you are I think I would be surprised if you're wrong though, that in the sense that I think there will be a I think they could well be having all the gangs come out. Like, here is a default loadout. So there is a standard loadout that could lead to a quick skirmish. I think that that is gonna be an option. Because I do think that that's what they can do.

SPEAKER_01 2:48:43

So this is Escher Blades of the Matriarch and the Goliath.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:47

I think they that's just a new name to differentiate what you're buying because they sell because you've the existing box is the Escher Gang. Yes. They can't have two Escher gangs which are different miniatures on the shelf at the same time. No, no, no, I agree. Um I think that's why I think that's the name for the reason for the different names.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:07

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. But I sort of wouldn't be surprised if that's the model they want to go into, which is odd because it's a very traditional, it's a games workshop mainline studio way of thinking, whereas traditional game uh games workshop specialist games studio is much more creative, customizing, build what you want. We support legacy stuff forever, don't worry about it. Um, so yeah, it'll be interesting to see if this is slightly more shifting in this sort of more modern mainline studio way of thinking because it's all going to plastics. Uh, there's going to be less customization options. And you know, traditionally, 40k in AOS is very much like if it's not in the box, you can't play it, right? There's no, oh, there's a there's a uh uh a war gear profile that doesn't exist for that unit or ganger, whereas Necromunda that's always been the case. Like they've always encouraged you to make your own things and kit bash.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:09

I I don't see them changing that. I mean if they did that, they've just killed the game.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:15

That's that is my that would be killing and I but but here's the thing it's like with the exception of these models, you we can still play Necromanda with the old rules, and I'm I've only played one campaign and we didn't even finish it with the old book that I bought. So I basically bought the core rule. I I'm cursed, I have to say. Every time I get into a game, because I'm like, oh, this will be fun. Games Workshop's like ah, we're gonna wait six months to a year uh once you've built everything and ready to play, and then we're gonna give you a new edition and make those things invalid. So Necromunda was my latest one where it's heresy before that.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:55

If this comes out in like September or October, that you still had that were able to use that book for over 12 months.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:03

Yeah, of which we played seven or seven games.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:06

That's no that's no one's fault but us but us. We can't blame GamesWorks because you didn't play again enough games of Necromunda.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:14

That's not fair. No, I'll I'll blame Spike. How about that? He's the one that didn't carry the campaign on. For shame on him. Uh anyway, yeah. I mean but my problem is if we do like the new skirmish game, we can still play the old one. There's no harm in that. And I'm quite happy to play the old one to get a bit more use out of my book. And it's only if we really want these models uh do we really need to bother with um the new system. I would be keen to see what they do with the streamlining aspect of it and how it plays, though.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:46

My my feeling is that the reason it's called Warhammer Skirmish is because on a shelf to ad so to someone who doesn't know what this is, just calling it Necromunda doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:59

Whereas I mean I mean obviously me obviously obviously to us who know and play it and are familiar with it, um, we know what Necromunda is. However, if you don't know what Necromunda is, what is Necromunda? You have to explain to somebody uh what it is. So we have Warmer 40k, people we're we're at a point now fact in in history where people know what Warhammer means now. That like the word just the word Warhammer, people kind of get an idea what that means. So the reason this is called this is like Warhammer Warhammer. I I read this as Warhammer Skirmish, Necromunda. So what they're telling you is this is a Warhammer game where you play skirmish battles. That's what that's what the new so it's it's letting you know it's a it's a squad-based thing. Because kit you can kill team, it's like it's a team and they kill each other. That's quite straightforward and it's it's one of 40,000, kill team. I mean, this was just Necromunda before. It was like, what what is that to someone who doesn't play?

SPEAKER_01 2:52:54

Yeah, true. I mean, one option, and I don't think they necessarily outright said this, or maybe they did, so I could be wrong. As I've always said, every big core box set has always been compatible with the others. This maybe is still the case, uh, but maybe Necromunda Skirmish is a spin-off of Necromunda with these specific gangs, and those gangs are still compatible. Oh no, because they've given us the books. But I was thinking those gangs are still compatible with the old game. Um, but yeah, no, I don't think so. Because they've given us the underhive books, basically.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:30

I'm of the opinion that that that Skirmish is to make it more obvious what this product is, yeah, and to make that help that appeal to uh to uh a bigger audience.

SPEAKER_01 2:53:40

And also to differentiate between the editions, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:53:43

So you know it's a different so you know it's a new version, but they've but they've specifically added on Warhammer and so it's not just Necromunda Skirmish, it's Warhammer Necromunder Skirmish, and how the thing's being branded Warhammer now. Yeah, so it's like you know this is a Warhammer product and it's a skirmish game. And that's what that's my I I I I don't think I am trying choosing to not read too much into that at this point in an in a mostly negative way. I'm just looking at is that's how they're framing it to make it more of an appealing of a game to people. Because it may even be people who who just go to Warhammer stores don't know what Necromundo is. They just see Necromunda, but what is that? And it can fit and maybe it's it it it doesn't feel as approachable as it as some of the other games, and they want to try and make it more successful, and this is their this is the way they're trying to do that. I'm I that's how I think it's gonna that's how it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:41

That is fair. I mean, if you look at that core rule book, it looks just as thick as the current one. So in and maybe it has been streamlined slightly and they've given us some more lore and artwork or something instead. But I suspect it's uh I mean what I would hope is it's just a tidied up version.

SPEAKER_04 2:55:01

It's um maybe they've condensed a few things here and there because some bits were overly complicated, like to me this this feels to me like was it eighth edition or ninth edition or 40k, where they made some big they made some big kind of changes to some of the game systems and everyone got uh maybe it's not the best of the world, because they all got like the same. Yeah, but this was like this could be a big reset because essentially what they're doing is all the existing books outside of the law perspective will no longer mean anything. Yeah, they're releasing the the two new and they're releasing two new books to cover all the the basic rules for you for all the rules for all your units is now gonna be covered up in these two the gangs of the underhive and the gangs of the outlands, and there's a new core rule book. So in a way it is kind of resetting a lot of stuff. So they're now a much side somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 2:55:56

Yeah, so if you if you wanted to play Necromunda but never got in To it now is potentially the perfect time. Like we've speculated many times, like if this is a new edition of the game, are they going to do that three-year cycle with this game like they have with things like Heresy Now? And it seems like Old World's getting not quite a full reset, it's getting a little update. Um, because I think the one thing that people liked about specialist games was that the edition churn was nowhere near as bad as it is in 40k and Age of Sigma. So people went and they enjoyed the fact that the Necromanda rules were mostly stable, but there were things they could buy for it. If this is a new edition that we see every three years, I think a lot of people will be annoyed about that. So hopefully it isn't that. Hopefully it'll be an addition every six to eight years or something. But who knows? Um yeah, I think is there anything else you want to you want to say before we say farewell?

SPEAKER_04 2:57:02

I think it looks really cool. I can't wait to to see more about Necromonda. Uh I've I've I've really enjoyed the times I have been the campaigns I have played in Necromonda, because it really gets you the opportunity to like get like just a ground level with various units and like change their guns as they get upgrades. I think it's a fantastic game system. It could do with being more approachable and because a lot of people don't have the the time or the awareness or the knowledge about it to want to get into it. So if this can help with that, I'm curious as to I hope this is a not expensive box or score set. My worry is it might still be really expensive because the main problem is that you've the the the main set is like so much plastic in there for like all the all like the um overtrained and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:57:43

I mean, even the latest blood bottles like they really jacked up on the price, so yeah, it it could be quite pricey. And as I say, I think from what I remember of the quarrels, it was a bit convoluted because you've got the rules for playing the game, the rules for creating the gang, and then the rules for campaign, and they were all over the place, and it wasn't very clear often what you were having to do. And I remember when I was creating a gang, I was asking you a bunch of questions. So making those rules tighter and easier to onboard a new person, and there's a and the core rules are quite complicated at times, um, and there's a lot of extra rules everywhere, so there's a lot to get into when you're trying to learn the game. So trying to make that as approachable as possible while still maintaining the flavour and the depth and the crunch that people like will be a good balance if they could if they can get there. Cool. Well, on that note, we will say goodbye and we will do a transitional noise to I guess the very end of the show. Um, so transitional noise. Uh

Exodites

SPEAKER_01 2:58:59

wanted to round off the 40k themed part of this show uh with the exodites. Uh Richie just said they're very good, and I'm basically going to do the same thing. There was a much long intro video into them, and we finally see Exodites coming to life in Warhammer 40k via the medium of kill team. Exodites have been around in the lore since pretty much the inception of uh Eldari or the uh Space Elves, as they were first called, and then Elder, as then they were later called. Um Elder that have gone on their own path, and they went to maiden worlds, which were full of these strange creatures that look like dinosaurs on dragons, and they have tamed them and they're riding them. Uh, so we get a great little box set that includes three uh the exodite models and then a bunch of beast snaggers, um basically some cavalry and some sort of boy versions, and they are basically uh they're called MPOs, so a bit like NPCs, they're not controlled by you, the player, they have like a sort of slight AI version uh to them. Uh so it says that you get uh three Eldari Dragon Masters, uh sorry, a kill team of three Eldari Dragonmasters and two Dracoliths. Uh so you get your clamblade, uh, which is a guy riding a dinosaur of some kind with weirdly human hands, I would say, uh a little crazy beak. Uh, this person has a shield and a sword. Uh then we have um this is the more wizard one. This is the stone seeker, so they've got a staff and they're posed with their hand outstretched, um, as if they're casting some psychic uh power. Um, you can see much more of a colourful face of the uh dragon that they're riding, uh, or dinosaur, whatever it's actually going to be called. And then the last one is a sniper character. Um, so that's really interesting that each one is very individual, which is a very kill team. Uh, not very appropriate for 40k, uh, which we'll talk about uh shortly. And then you get a few smaller miniatures, you get these two uh little uh mini mini dragons, we call them mini dinosaurs. Um oh, they are the dracolyphs. Okay, so you do get three dragon masters and two dracolyths. So these are uh the dracolith, which is a small little cute doggy version of the characters. These are all uh incredible miniatures. Great to see the um exodites come to life, much like the corsairs and much like Krieg. I suspect there will be a larger range of these coming down the line, maybe not a full, whole wide army release. We've only seen a couple of things for Corsairs. I would love to see more for Corsairs, I would love to see more for Exodites, I think they're really interesting. Um, in a way, I think with the Exodites, I would have loved to have seen less of the classic sort of Eldari helmets and maybe more them showing their faces. But I guess the helmets are very uh traditional elder, right? That's what makes them look like they're elder. And if you saw their faces, maybe they wouldn't, but I would love them to look a little bit more savage-like, uh a little bit more tribal. Uh they have nods and winks to it here and there, but they they still look very like their elder riding on dragons, and I would like them to be a bit more sort of savage and ferocious, and they've gone off in a bit more of a distinct direction. That was my personal preference. Um, but I can see they've stuck with much more of a classic uh look as per like the original artwork and stuff. Um, so you can see some better close-ups of the clan blade. I really like the armoured uh helm for the mount. Uh yeah, really nice sculpts, really nice painted uh detail. Uh, then we've got the Stone Singer, and then lastly it's the lace stalker, is the one with the sniper rifle. That's a very cool pose, and I like how the uh mount is looking in the same direction that they're shooting in as well. That is really cool, and then we've got those little dracolyths. Um, and then lastly, we've got the Exodite Dragons. So it says you can alternatively build them as Lance Armed, Exodite Dragon Knights, who will have rules in Warhammer 40k. Now they don't say that the uh these original uh guys, the dragon masters will have rules in 40k. And I think the thing that I will say is the problem with kill team rules is each model is its own character, even when it comes to like Creek Kill Team, each one has its own unique thing. And when they port that over to Warhammer 40k, you have a very complicated data sheet where every model has different weapons and it becomes really overly complicated. It really slows the game down in terms of all the dice rolls. So if the Dragon Master kit is just specific for kill team, and then the Dragon Knights are just for 40k, this is actually a great workaround going forwards for the problem with kill team models, basically. Um obviously, it does lock out a whole sculpt range that people might like and they can't get it in 40k. I could understand that frustration. Um, maybe both will be available, uh, but this way the Exodite Dragon Kit is that more streamlined data sheet specific for 40k. Um, and also that doesn't really work in killteam because it would be too boring having three characters all being exactly the same. So maybe that is the workaround that they're they're doing. It'll be interesting uh to see. But let's uh take a look at these models. Um, these mounts have less uh sort of little wing things coming out by the heads. Have they got back banners, they've got lances, classic lances, uh kind of small tiny tactical rock. Uh there. Then we've got another one again, lance. Uh cool. This has a little blue colour on the uh mounts, uh, but much more of a riding pose, uh, which looks really good. Uh this one, clearly the mount is actually in the same pose as uh the Dragon Masters kit, so that's interesting. Obviously, they've hidden it away a little bit in terms of by giving us a better colour scheme. Um and that Lance had looks like it has a bit of a weird bend in it, but maybe it's just the angle. Um, but yeah, these guys look cool. I think the fact that you get three lances, I can imagine this being extremely popular. Uh, the other unit, who knows if that will be in 40k and if it'll be any good, but I suspect this one will be a bit of a slam dunk uh for people. Uh then we get a bunch of other things. So we get uh Kill Team Exodite book with some phenomenally cool artwork on it. Uh that looks really good. Kind of like the weird uh sort of human arms on these um creatures. They're very cool. Uh you get some templates. Uh what's interesting is it looks like you get some sort of movement turning templates, maybe, for your models. I mean, I could be completely wrong. Maybe these are 40 degree vision arcs, or maybe these are 40 degree like turning arcs for your models, because it looks like those might be for your bases. I mean, I don't know. I I like the idea that maybe the cavalry being cavalry will act differently from infantry in kill team because that's something quite unusual. And three models for a kill team is extremely elite, even by kill team standards. Um so I will say this: it feels like it's not really a kill team at all. It's how can we put a 40k unit in to kill team just to sell it? Um, especially the standard 40k one, which they're not using and they're doing the dragon masters. Um, but I mean it feels relatively appropriately placed. But yeah, I'd love it if there's the if these were like turning arcs for how these dragon creatures run around on the board for kill team. I think that'd be really flavoursome and uh narrative. I think mostly the disappointing bit is that if you want to get access to this, you have to buy a bunch of orcs and the orcs aren't a kill team whatsoever. They're just you know some old sculpts, they're not even the new orcs, they're the orcs that no one's currently caring about. But maybe, just maybe if you're new to orcs because you got Armageddon, maybe you will get these instead, uh, or to bolster them your existing army. Um, there's also some really cool terrain here. It might be worth adding these little um obelisk structures uh to represent the maiden world. They're very cool. I mean, I'd love it if that appeared to be an available thing, but I assume they're scratch-built or 3D design specifically for the photos. Um yeah, would it be better if the beast snaggers was a beastnagger kit with an upgrade sprue, much like all the other traditional ones? So if someone's buying this, they're at least getting two kill teams. I think that would be cooler. So it is a bit low effort that they've turned these into the MPOs, but also the MPO kind of format is kind of cool and clever in and of itself that you've got these uh, you know, one kill team that you play and another kill team that is like on this sort of automated AI uh sort of system where you're playing against them. Yeah, I don't mind that because it makes it a single player game. Um, it's just disappointing that they're all old sculpts and they've not given us anything new for them. Because if it was orcs that could have also been a kill team as well as MPOs, that would have been sort of phenomenal. But the main selling point is the exodites, I guess. Um if you're a 40k player, I would sensibly hold out and not waste your time on some be snaggers. But I know most people are going to go crazy for it and don't want to have to wait, and these will sell out, and they don't want to have to wait for the time for them to get a general release because that'd probably be six months, probably. Um, so yeah, just just a word of caution if you are an elder player. Uh yeah. They're very cool though. They're very cool. That's all I say, and Richie liked them as well. So, yeah, let's move on uh to the outro uh with a transitional noise.

5 Star Review

SPEAKER_01 3:10:07

Now, before we get to the outro, it is time for the famous or infamous five-star review. Uh, this review comes from the United Kingdom of the Apple Podcasts, titled My Favourite Podcast. I've been listening to The Lookout Sir for the past few years, and it's absolutely my favorite podcast. Dan leaving was a blow, but Phil has always been my favorite. Thank you very much. Uh he's always been my favorite anyway, and he's doing a seller job of continuing on. I'm especially enjoying the video content, getting to look at what you're talking about as it happens. And a great example of this was of the episode looking at the new defiler and night model. Keep up the good work, we really appreciate it. That comes from someone called Salmon Face. So thank you very much, Salmon Face. I'm glad you're enjoying the show. Uh, I'm glad I was always your favourite as well. I many, many, many persons had me down as their favourite. Dan, Dan knew it, he just didn't want to admit it. Um glad you enjoyed uh that Defado and Night episode. That one took a lot of production uh to get done. I'd like to do a few more of those uh in the future. Uh but thankfully Tim and Richie have been doing some stellar work, helping me uh join the show, so I haven't had to worry too much about doing those extensively overproduced episodes, but they will appear from time uh to time. So yeah, thank you very much, and I'm glad you're still um still listening. I hope you are and enjoying the video format as well. Uh I only have two more five-star reviews to go to read out. So if you would like your five-star review read out, please jump in the queue now before I run out. Um if you would like to be like Salmon Face, please do in on us on Apple Podcasts predominantly. Uh, but Audible, I believe you can also leave it. And if you also wanted to leave it anywhere else, uh just let me know where. Uh YouTube is a good one, YouTube comments, just say five stars in your comments and then leave your five-star review and I'll read those ones out as well. Um I'll double check, but I don't think I've had any there uh recently at all. Uh, if you would also like to support the show, you can do it in a variety of places. Uh, you can you know like and subscribe, tell your friends to listen to the podcast. Uh, you can buy our merch on Red Level, and lastly, you can support me on Patreon, which goes to keeping on the lights, paying for the you know, the uh software that I use to edit and produce this, uh pays for the hosting costs on Buzz Sprout that I use as the RSS feed for the general podcast itself. It all costs uh money. Uh so yes, please do support me on there. There will probably be an extra episode of Transitional Noise, which is the bonus content that I occasionally put out for Patreon only subscribers. I think I've done one or maybe two episodes of that. I've been far too busy for the last few months, sadly, to do it. But there's been so much content from this reveal show. I think everything else from that reveal show will go into a transitional noise episode if I get time. Um I'm away next week, so I don't think I'll have time then. But if I get time afterwards to do it, or if I get time this week to record it, and maybe editor it will appear with this, that would be nice, or sort shortly afterwards. There's quite a few extra bits of content I uh have always wanted to do. I've just not had time to do it, so I'll see what I can do. Um yeah, fingers crossed, fingers crossed everyone. Let's see, let's see what happens. Uh yeah, so if you like to support the show, please do. It's always greatly appreciated. Uh, you know, it helps keep me motivated to keep doing this uh when it is very late at night, like it is currently at half past midnight, as I'm finishing off this episode. But I'm not done yet because uh the five-star is done. It's transitional noise quickly to a very brief outro uh before I go to bed. Uh so yes, transitional noise.

Outro

SPEAKER_01 3:14:29

End of the podcast, where it's just me on my own um talking to you. Um yeah, so Richie left. Uh thank you very much, Richie, for joining me uh on the main bulk of the show. That was greatly appreciated. Loved your insight. Um I was hoping to get Tim on to talk about the Ogre Moore tribes because both him and me have been brainstorming ideas for Ogre Moore tribes. We both love the idea of getting into it, maybe doing a doubles list for Ogun Moore tribes. Not sure if that's uh gonna happen anytime soon, but I think we we might like to make it work. Um, Tim is in the process of having a child, not him personally, his wife, um, is probably due any day now, so he's been a bit too busy doing baby preparations to join me, sadly. Hopefully he will be back on at some point. Um, but the TLDR of his opinion on Ogre Moore Tribes was I think he was very much like me, liked everything, maybe except for the big pot character, um, because that one just sort of stands out as being a little bit odd in comparison to the rest of the range, but the models are very good. Uh, and yeah, hopefully I'm gonna do a deep dive into them. Um, there's a very small chance I'll save it for the next episode on the hope that Tim can join me. But chances are I will bundle everything else non-40k related into a transitional noise, and I'll put it on there, and that way I can keep next episode for more 40k content. Um, because I would like to talk about playing the game, which I've yet to do in terms of the new edition, uh, talking about the cards, whether that's uh the chapter approved and the uh the campaign uh deck as well. So I'd like to do those probably as the next episode. Let me know down in the comments if you've got other ideas you'd like me to talk about. Uh there's always a billion other ideas that I could also um either wax lyrical or bore you to death with. Um other hobby news. What have I been up to lately? Uh this week I've had no time to hobby uh because I've been doing some painting and decorating around the house, uh, which has been a different kind of painting, painting large terrain, uh, but just not hobby-related stuff. Um I did get a game of spearhead in yesterday, so my buddy Stevie came over. We got to christen the gaming table of sorts with a game of spearhead. He got to show me a bunch of his lovely models that he's been painting. Very fun, very good uh to see. We played a game. Uh, I did win. I think it was 16 to 9, I think was the final score. Um, it was quite interesting because uh Nighthaunt have the old rules, or at least for Spearhead I was using had the old rules with their fill up save, unrendable, um, but a slightly worse ward save. So it was nice to kind of play old Nighthaunt, which was my favourite version of Nighthaunt. I do kind of miss that. Um and yeah, but they're still quite speedy. I got some turn one charges off and sort of locked him off. Uh, and because you can hold objectives, and I wasn't sure this was a crawl rule or advanced rule, and you don't use advanced rules in spearhead. Instead, most of the advanced rules are being relayed to you by by these cards. You draw three cards a turn, you can either use it to score an objective or you can do a battle tactic, which is Like a command ability, which are often the old style advanced rules, basically. But yeah, objectives, going back to that, is enormously sticky. So once you hold it, you forever hold it until your opponent takes it off you. And that's how we played it, and that's how it was meant to be played. But it just meant I could hold my home objective turn one and then run off of it and then just put everything into his half of the table, causing him lots of problems. Uh, whereas if you had to physically hold objectives, it meant it would be a bit more balanced. I think you'd have to sort of keep the models on things rather than maybe move around a bit more, but maybe it gives you a more dynamic game. It was a bit hard to tell from just one game, but it seemed fun. I think there might be a lot of rock, paper, scissors when it comes to different spearheads in terms of one spearhead. Uh so I had the slasher host, I think it was called. Uh Stevie had one of the Cities of Sigmar ones. Um, but maybe he's got a bunch, because actually he paints a lot of different armies. Uh so maybe I think he wants to try Stormcast Eternal, which will be quite durable, and I have quite bad rend. Um so that might be a much harder matchup for me, just on principle, even though it's all meant to be you know balanced, uh so to speak. Um, so yeah, it'd be interesting to play some more games. That would be a nice idea. Uh, we'll also probably try and get some Age of Sigma done as well at some point as well, but I need to find some terrain to use for that and probably get a battle mat of some kind, uh, because I don't have one. Speaking of Age of Sigma, there's a brand new chapter approved coming out. So I think we pre-ordered it a week ago, so that should be coming soon. Uh that means another big change for the year. All the battle tactics in terms of how you score has changed. Uh, today they, which was uh Tuesday, um, it's now Wednesday though, because I'm going into the night. Um, they had uh dropped the points changes. So some uh you know, different armies, some points have gone up, some have gone down. I think all of Nighthorn stuff went down. Um, and they've teased us with what are some of the scourge of Axi stuff have been. So last year their season was Scourge of Garan, which gave us um some new like enhancements and relics um and sort of detachment type rules, as well as two updated data sheets, no war scrolls, uh for the existing armies. Um so they're doing that same format again this time round. Um weirdly for Nighthaunt, they're getting a new black coach again. So it'll be interesting if it's the same one from the last season or if it's a new one or just slightly tweaked. Um and then the unit that they've also done for Nighthaunt is Spirit Hosts, which I have a few of, so that'll be good. I don't have to worry about building something new. I can just potentially uh play with that one. So when those rules come out, that'll be really interesting to see and play some games. Um we also finally booked um as a group uh our hotel for Newport, because we're doing the grand narrative for that, uh for 40k. Although Tim's sort of uh he's changed his mind and he's coming, but he's not doing a grand narrative because he doesn't want to do 40k uh as much anymore because it's a lot to keep up learning multiple systems, so he's going to do uh the grand tournament for Age of Sigma instead. Um because that's his much preferred system, and as a gaming group as a whole, as I'm sure you listeners have understood over the last couple of years, uh Dan, Richie, and Tim all prefer Asia Sigma over 40k. I would say I think Age of Sigma is a better game system, but I still prefer the lore, story, and armies of 40k more. Um the jewelry is still out, obviously, on 11th edition because we've not played it, and they're still they're all still hopeful that 11th edition will be good. But I think they're a lot more wedded to Age of Sigma now, more than 40k. So yeah, we booked our hotels for grand narrative, so that'll be good uh to do. I think now six weeks away, so it's not long now. So obviously, we'll do hopefully another podcast episode dedicated to that as a group going off. Uh, hopefully, Tim and Richie can join me uh for that as well, so that'd be exciting. And um, yeah, in terms of uh Age of Sigma, I like I would say my one issue has always been struggling to stick to an army. And I was looking at my shelf indoors, so I've got my Night Haunt, uh, which I've got a reasonably sized collection for. Uh, but then I realized ah, I've got the Soul Blight Gravelords Limited Edition Battle Time. I've also got the Hellsmiths of Hashard Limited Edition Battle Time, and I want to get the Ogre More Tribes Limited Edition Battle Tome because the only way to give a limited edition battle tone is to get the army box. And I have been sucked into the Defratle army box because it looked really cool. I loved the look of the skeletons, I look liked the look of most of the Hellsmiths of Hashett, um, and I really, really like the look of Ogummore tribes, um, but I've not stuck to doing any of those things, so maybe I'm having a sort of butterfly moment where I'm buying things, being very briefly enthusiastic about them, and then my enthusiasm is fading. Um, I've got some great ideas for um Soblight Gravelords. I never really had any great ideas for Hellsmiths of Hasher other than doing a lava base. And a half of the model range I really like, and some of the models like the artillery pieces, I really don't like the look of. So that army is a bit of a marmite um army for me, so I might give that up and not do that. Uh Ogum Moore tribes, I really like the look of. Um, I really wanted to convert them up into some sort of pirate theme, but the new models don't really lean into that very well, so maybe I'll do a more of a Japanese theme or just do their kind because they're kind of Mongolian, I guess, by at the moment. So I might do Mongolian Japanese theme, but still make it nautical. So there's some ships or some seaweed and sea monsters or something. Um, maybe. So maybe it's more a few little bits of detail that I'm changing and then basing uh for those guys, uh, rather than full-on traditional Western pirates with hats and eye patches and hooks, uh, which is what I was originally going to do. So maybe I'll just do a bit more nautical themed based on basing than anything else. I don't know. I'm I'm nulling that one over, basically. But yeah, my problem with Age of Sigma is I can't really settle on an army that I really like, and in part because I want to convert them up, but the other downside is the models like Ogam All Tribes are so good they don't need converting at all. Whereas if a model's a bit rubbish, it would make me want to convert it up. Hellsmiths of Hashit, the artillery's so bad I would want to completely scratch build that artillery piece into like the old Def Train? That the um uh steam engine that they used to have. Demon Engine, I think it was called, I think. Yeah, it's a bit late. Uh and my brain is a bit fried. So um yeah, I hope you've enjoyed the show. It's been a very long episode, I think, uh, once it's all loaded together. Uh sorry about the last episode where there was some editing issues. I maybe overcorrected the auto-cutting out yums and ours section, and the last bit of the episode that me and Richie were in was very choppy. Uh, I didn't spot that because um I spent the good part of a day going through that episode, and that was the last section that I didn't have time to physically listen to. Um, because that's what I try and do. Um so yeah, sorry about that. Hopefully this one will be a bit better. Um no guaranteed though. Uh yeah, thank you very much for listening. Sticking around to the very end, greatly appreciated. If you have enjoyed the show, please do let me know down in the comments below if you're listening on YouTube. And if not, you can find the you know, the post relating to this episode over on the social media and just leave a comment there as well. That'd be greatly appreciated. Uh, thank you very much. Uh good night, uh good morning, whatever you're doing in your day. Uh goodbye.