Dear Netflix, Please Call About “High School Epic” with Hannah R. Goodman

Blurb

After her father vanishes, Dani Fetter begins high school already carrying the weight of abandonment. She expects her best friends to support her, but they prioritize parties, hookups, and popularity instead.

Left behind, Dani meets Kevin Martin, an outsider who seems to give her everything her world is missing. Until betrayal cuts deep, leaving her reeling once more. Dani's circle keeps reshaping again and again: new friends like Ryan O’Leary offer comfort, while old wounds resurface.

Through each season of high school, Dani is tested through heartbreak, mistakes, and hilarious missteps, as she wrestles with who she is and who she wants to be.

Told in a unique blend of letters and chapters,  HIGH SCHOOL EPIC captures the chaos of teenage life in the early 1990s with raw honesty, humor, and heart. 

BIO 

Psychotherapist by day and writer by night, award-winning author Hannah R. Goodman prefers tea over coffee, cats over dogs, and staying in over going out. Her newest YA novel, High School Epic, captures the chaos of teenage life in the early 1990s with raw honesty, humor, and heart. Her other recent book, New Adult romance I Love That Girl, has been praised as "simultaneously joyous, sexy, and uncertain."  

Her contemporary YA romance novel Till It Stops Beating, published in 2018, was praised by Literary Titan for "tackling a difficult issue like anxiety and making a story that was funny and sweet without making light of the issue." Though released as a stand-alone book, Till It Stops Beating is the fourth book in The Maddie Chronicles series. The Maddie Chronicles began with her first book, My Sister's Wedding, which won first place in the 2004 Writer's Digest Self-Published Books Awards Children's/Teen Division. She published the follow-up, My Summer Vacation, in May 2006, which went on to win a bronze IPPY in 2007. The third Maddie book, Fear of Falling, was released in the fall of 2009 and was praised by teachers and readers for tackling subjects like homophobia and coming out. 

She currently writes about writing, publishing, and mental health on her Substack called Writing My Way Through It.   

Follow Hannah here: https://linktr.ee/hannahrgoodman

About Victoria:

Hey there, I’m Victoria! As a writer and developmental editor, I specialize in helping busy writers bring their publishing dreams to life without the overwhelm. Your story deserves to shine, let's make magic together. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Host Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Book Shop Chats, where we cozy up with books, creativity, and embrace the magical, messy process of writing a book. I'm Victoria Jane, a writer, developmental editor, and coach for sensitive busy writers, and I love to support you on your journey of bringing your story to life. So whether you're here for inspiration, behind the scenes peaks of what it what it means to actually write a book, or just some bookish conversations, you are definitely in the right place. And if you're looking for more personalized support, I also offer one-to-one writing support sessions to help bring your story to life because sometimes you need a little bit of support digging through the noise that is your brain because saying. And if you've got a finished draft, I would love to chat to you about developmental editing. It is my favorite thing. I love supporting authors and bringing their story to life. You can find all of the details in the show notes. So grab a coffee, grab a tea, plug in your headphones, go on a little walk, and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome back to Bookshop Chats. In today's episode, I am chatting with Hannah R. Goodman. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, hello. Thank you for having me. I am excited. I am excited. I feel like this is gonna be a good one. Like it's still, I mean, I say it's early. It's like 11 o'clock my time, but I'm like, I need I need some energy and I feel like we're gonna bring it up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah. So it's 11 o'clock your time, it's two o'clock my time. So we're in we're in a good place. We're not scared yet, you know, we're we're good.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yes, amazing. So we are just gonna dive right in uh because you have a you have some books out in the world. You've kind of been you've kind of been in this space for some time. Um, so I would love for you to just dive in and share about like if there is a particular book that is maybe like yelling a little bit louder this morning, uh, I would love for you to kind of like dive in and share, share the details.

unknown 2:09

Okay.

Two New Books At Fifty

High School Epic And 90s Nostalgia

SPEAKER_00 2:10

So I'm gonna do a Cliff Notes thing because yes, uh 2004, that's a long time ago. Uh I was, I gave birth to my first child, and then I also gave birth to my first book. And it was very exciting. And um, I won the 2004 uh Writer's Digest self-published book, children slash YA Division Book Award. It's a very long title, and it was the coolest call to get in the middle of winter was a phone call from them saying I won. Um, so my my life as an author began then. Um fast forward to 2025, and I have two books that came out this year. One January 1st with the Wild Rose Press, and another um October, technically October 9th. Um, I'm gonna show you, even though no one can see this. Yes, this is a little bit. This is High School Epic. High School Epic came out in October um with next chapter. And um, I Love That Girl came out in January with the Wild Rose Press. Prior to that, in 2018, this book, Till It Stops Beating, came out with Black Rose Writing. And prior to that, I self-published the um three books: My Sister's Wedding, 2004, My Summer Vacation, 2006, and Fear of Falling in 2009. They all um won different awards. Nothing as cool as the first book won the uh Writer's Digest Award. But um yeah, I I am both self-published and traditional published. I um didn't sign a contract with the publisher till my early 40s. So uh if you all do the math, I'm proud to say I'm 50 years old, and 50 was a good year because I had two books come out with two different publishers, which is exciting. Um, and the newest book is High School Epic. If I if I could just plug it for a minute. Yes, most important book of my life, because it's the one that is closest to my life. Um, and if you went to high school in the late 80s, early 90s, you're gonna read it, you're gonna be trans transported. But also, if you are a Gen Zer, um you're gonna be nostalgic for the analog time because a lot I have kids who are Gen Zs and they a lot of times wish that uh there was no social media. So um, so that's I don't even know what you asked me, but I hope I answered it.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yes, I am so here for that. That is amazing. That is that is epic. I love, I love that. I think that's so cool. And obviously, it's like touching a little bit on like I think age, right? Like that's something that was a big thing, right? I mean, I'll be 40 next year. And I think which is it, right? It's so much better than the 30s, like the 20s. Like I am so, so ready for like the next. It it's way better. Um, and I think it's so silly that we go get so attached to this. Like, if I don't have it sorted by, you know, 32, something is wrong, I'm behind, I'm whatever. Uh, and I think it's such a really it's a great reminder that it doesn't matter when like it's the time is the right time. Like when it happens, that's when it was supposed to happen. And I think life, life, like experiences, all that stuff, especially when you're writing a story, right? Like that stuff, it is so vulnerable, it's so personal. And I think it's really cool to see people go after their dreams at any age. And I think that that's amazing. So cool.

Age, Timing, And Career Detours

SPEAKER_00 5:51

I think it also, so touching on that, when I was 32, um, at that point I had published or 33, I had published self-published um three books, and I was on my I was with an agent. So I thought, okay, like we're on the path. I had self-published the first one at 28. By 33, I was on the third. I, you know, all these things. So I decided I was feeling a little disenchanted because we hadn't made any success, me and the agent. And I went off and got my MFA. And I got my MFA when I was 33 and had a six-month-old. So I had a four-year-old and a six-month-old. And I went off, I got an MFA, which meant I would go away for like 10 days, twice a year, for almost three years. And I just, you know, and when I was there, speaking of age, our oldest student was almost 80. And it was amazed. And she was a psychotherapist who wrote, like, I can't remember the kind of stuff that she was writing, but it was just ironic to me because now I'm 50 and uh I'm on my third career. I am a psychotherapist now. I wasn't back then. But uh it just was so empowering to see her at the MFA program because me at 33, oh my God, I'm so old. Isn't that hilarious? Um to be to be getting, you know, I was getting yet another fucking degree. Oh, can I say I hope I can't. Yes, please. We it's uh welcome, we welcome it here. Okay, wonderful, wonderful. I love that. Um, so age, yes. So I really thought that um when I when I wrote my first book at 24 and signed with an agent shortly after self-publishing, she she actually found me. That agent found me through the Writer's Digest Awards. She she saw me win, contacted me, which is everyone's dream, and represented me for almost five years. And quite honestly, it was a bust. It was it was a waste of time. Um, and I would I would go on to keep self-publishing because she just didn't, she wasn't a right fit for me, but I was desperate. And I guess the one thing about all of this is that I think I don't know what young people are feeling today that embark on publishing, but for me, I was very desperate. And so if someone liked me as that agent did, and she was very reputable. Um, I was just like, yes, and I should have gotten out sooner, but I didn't. And after her, and I finished the MFA and I um created something called Sucker Literary Anthology, which you can find online. And it was um an anthology that I found people all over the world through social media to submit to. And we created these three volumes of really interesting, YA, edgy, kind of like gritty short stories. I was in Publishers Weekly. Oh my god, this is it. An agent reached out to me again. I signed with her. Oh my god, this is it. I had another new book, she was gonna sell it, and she didn't. She also did not do shit. So that started, so that brings me to 2018, where she and I parted ways, and the two books I had had with her, which are Till It Stops Beating and I Love That Girl, I would be able to go on and wind up getting a publisher myself. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I love it.

Agent Hurdles And Anthology Lessons

SPEAKER_00 9:15

So, and I was it took a long time, obviously. I started this whole journey way back when, and I didn't get uh a traditional publisher till 2018. Now, one thing I want to say about all this is that I am still someone who aims to self-publish again. I it's not like I I'm I really the reality of working with a publisher is first of all, these are small publishers, these are not the big five. Um, and so what's lovely is that you don't have to pay for any of it. And somebody does your cover and they claim to do the editing. I have more to say about that later. Um, and whatever. And it's look in the big picture, I'm very grateful and it's lovely, but I do think that in general, when it comes to the publishing industry, I think publishers do take advantage of authors. I don't think they I don't think the small publishers intend to. I really believe that they're trying their best, but I don't think we're treated like we're important. I think it's sort of like you should be grateful that we said yes to you. Um and I'm not saying specifically about one of the three publishers I've been with. I'm not targeting one of them, but um, it's just a bummer because that's number one. And then number two thing that I've really feel strongly about is that you don't have to just be self-published and you don't just have to be traditionally published. It's not a choice, it's not like a this or that. It's not like you have to choose your political party. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not that. I think a lot of people think it is. I've seen the discourse online as like a lot of like you're either this or you're that. And I just don't think that's really true.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

No, it's yeah, that that at least that's been kind of the experience that I've I've had chatting with a number of authors of they've, you know, they've gotten a few book deals with their uh like with a small or a small or like an imprint of one of the big fives, and they've got that, and then they have this other book, and they're like, nobody knows what to do with it, or I feel strongly that it needs to be out in the world now, and they're self-publishing. And I think that's a really cool thing that we have the flexibility to do that now. Or I've also, you know, worked with authors where they've self-published and then an agent has reached out to them and then they've gotten a deal from that, right? Like, so there's so many different ways that it can kind of like work. Um, I think at the end of the day, like putting your best story forward is like whichever direction you're going is gonna be the most important thing, right?

Hybrid Path: Indie And Traditional

SPEAKER_00 11:54

So yeah, I think that's true. I think the other, the other reality is I only self-published the first time because it it, you know, I wrote the book when I was 24. I spent three and a half years trying to sell it to publishers. You know, I went directly. This is back, this is way back when. Yeah. Had a really I made it far. I made it to acquisitions at uh the different the the big five. I did, I made it far, but it was kind of like I remember the the editors coming back to me and saying, they don't know how to market your book. And this was this was my first book. It was my sister's wedding. Um, and that was fine, whatever. Like it was what it was. But I do remember there was this local woman who had a radio show and she invited me to come on, and I hadn't decided what I was gonna do. I had so many rejections. I was a high school um teacher at the time, and so known in the community. And this woman had me on her show and she said, Why don't you self-publish? And I didn't even know really what that was back then. And yeah, it just for me, self-publishing was not my first choice originally. Ironically, ironically, right now. So I had high school epic come out in October. I'm so happy I'm with next chapter. They did an amazing job on my cover. Yes, I love it. Gorgeous. Uh, I'm really excited, I'm thrilled to be with them. However, I have another book that is in the process I'm I'm working on, and I'm gonna self-publish it. I'm not even gonna offer it to anybody. It's just uh it's a very personal book and it's a choice I'm making. And I think like that's really important to you said it earlier, you make a decision. I I once upon a time made the decision to self-publish out of desperation because I also just felt tired from the rejection and I felt like nobody gets me, and I'm the weird kid, kind of like in high school. I'm the weird kid, nobody understands. Yeah, like I just did it for that reason. But now I do think this book could probably find a home, this one that's not been published yet. But I actually don't want it to. I I want to do it, so yeah, it's just a it's also getting older too. I I have less ego. Like I definitely had an ego when I was like, I need to get a book contract, I need to do it before I die. It became before it's like by the time I'm 30, 40, and then it was like, by the time I die, and uh I did it, I did it three times. I have no regrets, I enjoyed every single experience. I think the publishers that I was with did have done the very best they could. I think they're working against a lot of impossible factors, yeah. Um, but I I think that I want to kind of try it myself again. It's been a long time and there's a lot more resources now.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So yeah, I am yeah, I love that. I imagine, yeah, self-publishing has changed drastically um since like you first started. Obviously, even in the last like couple years, it's changed so much. Uh and I think, yeah, just seeing the amount of like effort and like artistry and all of the stuff that goes into these books, like it's it's so cool to see. And also I think it's challenging some of like what the trad publishers might be like publishing, right? Like, because we're we're pushing the envelope, we're putting in things that probably wouldn't have seen the light of day before. So I think it's really it's a great thing to get like these these stories and get so much like more um diversity and stuff out into the world, which is really like it's I love I love that.

Why The Mix Of Publishing Models Matters

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I love it too. There's something I noticed too, like that in the self-publishing world right now, there are these little trends. And you know, some of them are things like I know hockey romance is like for some reason, like everybody loves hockey romance. Personally, I don't, but but go off queen. I'm happy for people that like it. Like it's so good to see a trend in self-publishing. And then there's another one, another one that I really think is great is there's a lot of um uh LGBTQ. There's um there was a a romance, what is it, plus size romance or something like that? Uh on Instagram, and I was like, this is what we're missing. We're missing these things that are so important. I the the book I mentioned before that has not been published yet, that I'm self-published, it's genre blending. So I have it's part fiction, but it's also part memoir. Who's gonna pick that up? Probably no publisher, no one's gonna pick that up, but we can do that, you know. And I think the more interesting things I see in the self-publishing and the risks people take, that you we're not gonna someone with a traditional publisher. I mean, some of the cool little, I think the one that I'm with right now, now, next chapter, they seem to be very open to different things. Um but for the most part, I think that self-publishing is paving the way for new genres that really need what we need, what we need all the voices, like all there's a lot of uh covering of different things um that we don't see um in um in in regular publishing, so which is which is really good, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Definitely I think that's such a huge thing. And it's uh I yeah, it's just it's cool to see these stories get out and have people like go after their their dreams and do well with it.

Reality Check On Money And Success

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And it's like yeah, I think I think the do well part is interesting. That that's another thing that I I've observed a lot from my old lady perspective. I'm not an old lady, but I'm on my way. Um I feel like one, I'll tell you right now. By the way, there is a difference between 40 and 50, and it's called pains. I will just leave you with that rude. Um, the one thing I will say that might be controversial, okay? Yeah, whatever. Um, maybe not for you, but is that look, reality, you're not gonna make a living off this. No one is gonna make a living off their book. If you do, bonus, awesome. Yeah, I am so excited for you if you get to do that. But if you put that first, you're gonna be so heartbroken all the time. So, like, I'm not here to give advice that's unsolicited, except I will, which is this, which is this have a job you love. Yes, because this writing books, very few people make a living off of. And it puts a burden on the artistry when you put money. That's been my experience personally, is when I lifted that stressor from myself um and started to figure out, like, you know, no, that's never gonna be my career. Um, I don't know, it just gave me a lot of freedom personally, again, opinion that personal. Um, so I do think sometimes I see some discourse online from people, you know, they're just like, oh, I'm I'm a poor author and like I just need, you know, I just need one, you know, one hit or whatever. And it's like get a job. Yeah. You there's a lot of options, you know, to have a job where you can continue to work. Um but putting that kind of pressure on yourself and your art, I think can be really, really hard, you know. So that's that's my thought on that.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

That is such an interesting, yeah. And to me, I feel like I think obviously defining what set success means for you is a really important thing, right? Like that's huge. Um, and also recognizing that this is like you you're in it for the long game if you want to be a writer, right? Like so starting out, even if it was a business that you were starting, like chances are you're not making a profit for the first however many years, right? Like, so that's totally normal. And there's so many ways that you can diversify, right? Like, and I I feel like we just live in a time where multiple streams of income. Are so essential, right? Like we cannot put all of the eggs in a basket because have we seen the prices of eggs, right? Like prices of eggs, too much, too much, too much. So I think that that's such a great reminder. And I I do see that too, like that discourse of it just becomes this feeling of like they're a failure, of like, I can't make it work. Like it's me, I'm not good enough. And I'm like, it's not that, it's not that at all.

Defining Success As Connection

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And it's not really it's not you, it's the fact that you're trying to do something really hard, and like what we're trying to do is super subjective, despite what the New York Times might make you think. There's not one definition of the of a great book and a great story. And like you might be writing something that is way ahead of its time that people just don't get. And you know, so it's not you, it's kind of like dating. Like, don't take it personally if you're not a match with somebody. Yeah, keep it moving, keep going to the next thing, and you never know. I mean, my experience with the latest book with high school epic has been epic, actually. I I have to tell you that I went about this so differently, and I didn't put a lot of pressure on myself for pre-publication marketing, partly because the publisher I work with doesn't really, their strategy doesn't involve that. So, like I was like, okay, let's try this. Um, and I don't have a ton of reviews and I don't have, but I am starting, things are starting to come back to me, what people are thinking in the reading. Somebody put my book on book talk, which was so exciting, and you know, just seeing little things to me is six. That's my you ask, yeah, you said, what is your definition of success? And my definition is if you read my book and you tell me what you think, I am successful. Each person that reads my book and tells me what they think, then I feel unbelievably happy, satisfied. And every person who contacts me on social media who has read my book or who wants to read it, they get a personal response from me that is usually very gushy and mushy and happy and excited. And like they're probably like, she's a crazy lady. But no, I'm just grateful. I am this book is so important to me. It really, I feel like it's the kind of book that everyone's gonna read. Like, do you remember the book Perks Perks of Being a Wallflower? The perks of being a wallflower. Did you ever read that?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I don't know if I read it, but I do remember like there was a movie, but like there was a movie, so I think that I do like I feel like I I know enough enough, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Well, yeah, you don't, and you've never read it. Like it's a book that you know, look, everyone has an opinion, right? Some people hate it, some people love it. But that book, in terms of the way that it was, it's an epistolary novel, so everything is letters. My book is not, mine's mine's got everything. There's some letters, there's a bunch of different things, it's it's also narrative, whatever. But the feeling I got after I read that book, not that my high school experience is exactly the main character, is Charlie's, but I just felt like, oh man. And somebody compared my book to that. That book, and I was like, and Eleanor Park, somebody else, uh actually, I know who his name is Scott's Table Reed. He's on Instagram, he's great. Follow him, I love him. Um, he's been so supportive of me. His name is Scott, he's awesome. And he wrote the best, best review I've ever read of my work, and he compared it to those two novels. And I was like, Oh my god, I fucking made it. If someone that success to me, listen, do I want to sell a gazillion copies? Netflix, please call me. Yes, yes, but Netflix call me, but also that one person that reads this book and says, and another reviewer read it and said, This is the book that's closest to how I felt in high school. And I was like, Yes, that's because high school stays with you. I don't care what it is. The damage of high school is permanent. Yes, so true. So true. Oh freaking permanent. No, it's not permanent because I'm a therapist, I don't believe it's permanent, whatever. It's pretty, it imprints something and it does, you know. So I also really think that's what I wanted to do is write a book that, although it's very personal and it's you know, it's set during the time period that I grew up in. I'm I'm hoping that all ages people can connect to it because that's why that's why I write. I just want to connect.

Is The 90s Now Historical Fiction?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yes. A hundred percent. I think that's so true. And I feel like despite the fact that it is different, obviously, with social media and obviously being a mother to the gen, the Gen Zs. Uh it's it's the Gen Z kids. Uh, it's it's different. Uh, but I think they still navigate a lot of the same, like it's the same, same, same, same, but different. Like, especially now, things that I wore in high school are all trending and cool. And I'm like, this is this is scary. I don't like the fact that 2000 is now considered vintage. Um, this is 1919.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I'm just gonna put the word 19. I graduated high school in '93. Do you know that my book? Okay, this this is controversial, everyone. Yes, my book is considered historical fiction. Did you know that? I'm not kidding. I'm not even kidding. I cannot remember who told me that. I think it was a bookseller, it was a local book. Yes. She's like, I believe I'm gonna put this in historical fiction. I was like, what? Yeah, I'm historical.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I love I love that. Like it feels very iconic, but then also it feels like a shock to the system.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

So you must have graduated high school in 2004, three, 2005, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

So kind of that, yeah. So I was a little little.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

You're not little, yeah, but you're not historical yet. So don't be like don't be jealous. We're getting there. I'm historical.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

We're getting there. But I think that there is something to be said about like that 90s sort of like there is that nostalgia that so much, so many people are craving, and you see it now. It's a trend on on Instagram, TikTok, and stuff of like bringing back the 90s. And I do think there's that like innocence, and uh there's less noise just because like we didn't have the social social media or access to like so much news all the time. And I think that that's something obviously bringing that into a book and being able to like escape to a world where that was once upon a time the reality is always a lovely thing.

Analog Details, Music, And Memory

SPEAKER_00 26:40

It really is so funny. There's there's a part of my book, uh, a couple parts, they're just little details where she's on the phone, and the phone is got this long extension cord. You remember that? Remember like a long extension cord? Yeah, and she's and she talks about how she can't wait to get her own phone line and to have she wants a cordless phone because like so-and-so has a cordless phone. These little details were things that I went through. Like I remember getting my mom, my parents allowed us to get our own phone line, and I had like we had our cordless phones like later on when I was a little bit older. And these little advances in technology were a big deal for us, or when I went from having um a cassette player, right? And to a CD player, like these were big, these were big deals, or when the music trends changed and we started to listen to grunge rock, which I don't even know if they call it that anymore, but yeah, those are things I mentioned in the book. I talk about and I don't talk about it in like a way that's like now we're talking about 1991 when you know Pearl Dam, like no, it's all very it's so subtle. I think like people would, you know, people from your age group, my age group will go, Oh my god, I remember that, you know, I remember those songs. I remember I did create a playlist simply because so much music was mentioned in the book. Yeah, just different um songs are mentioned, or or artists, and I made a playlist for it. And when I when I listened back to it, I was like, wow, this this is crazy how you get brought right back out to those those moments, you know. And they're they are epic high school. Moments are pretty epic, truly.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So it's so wild to to yeah, just to see it. And then obviously we're we're kind of like my oldest is graduating this year, so it's like a strange kind of oh, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

My youngest is graduating this year, and it is wild.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

It is wild. It's it's just so it's so different too, of just like how yeah, how things have changed since like uh like I graduated, probably since you graduated, like it's just so different now, and it's really it's kind of interesting to see I how little they are still, and I'm like, holy crap, I thought I was so grown up at 18, and then and then they're they're I'm like you're just a baby, you're just a baby.

Parenting Then Versus Now

SPEAKER_00 29:01

But don't you think some of this too is that you know, you're younger than me, but I yeah, experienced this that our parents just weren't on top of us as much, they just weren't, you know, maybe maybe your age group is because you know what's funny is you said you're turning 40. Well, yeah, when I when I was teaching, I my first year of teaching was 1998, and those kids are now 40 because I'm in touch with some of those kids that were my students, and I can't believe how little the age gap is between myself and them. That I was only 23 and they were like 12 and 13. Yeah. So maybe it's a little bit different for you, but I mean, I'm a gen, I'm a gen Xer, and like nobody paid attention to us. We we got away with I mean, thank God there was no social media to capture any of it because, and so I think the reason why I think my 17-year-old is like a baby, you're such a baby. I say that to him too, is because we relate to our kids much more like adults, I think, than our parents did to us.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, yeah. I think that yeah, I think that's interesting of just that sort of like yeah, the different styles of I think parenting. And then I feel like too by stand, I feel like my parents were relatively young when so there's that, and then I was a young parent. So it was it's so interesting to see it's how it all plays out. It's I find that stuff so interesting. I'm such a I'm such a nerd when it comes to like sociology and like studying humans and all that, which is probably why I love writing uh so much, right? Like, so I love that. Um, well, we've we've chatted about so much amazing stuff, but I would love to hear a little bit about the the marketing side of things. Like you touched on it briefly, um, especially like sort of like contrasting maybe a little bit between uh self-publishing and maybe working with your um publishers of like if there was any difference, because I think often that is something that maybe is a myth when it comes to trad publishing is that you like they do everything and you yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

So I I'd love to hear how that has been for you. Um well, I will say this. Oh, I have to say one more thing about what someone reviewed High School Epic, sent me a message, a direct message, and said, the only thing I didn't like was the mother in the story. She's so absent. And I replied back, I don't know how old you are, but when I was growing up, parents didn't check your homework. Parents weren't like, you know, and it was an interesting conversation we had. I don't think she was a lot younger than me, but she was she was enough younger to be struck by that, right? And I said, you know, honestly, when I was writing the book as a parent, how negligent the parents were, I was like cringing, like, oh my god. But then I realized that was normal.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah. So normal.

Marketing: What Publishers Do And Don’t

What Actually Works Online

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Anyway, um, okay, so marketing. All right. Well, I will tell you this. Um, the first publisher I worked with in 2018 was so transparent and said, We will only do marketing that you collaborate with us, that you pay, you pay, we will, in other words, they would do like, we're gonna pay this amount for this particular marketing, and you have the option of uh buying into this marketing thing, whatever it was. There were so many things we did. And then there was some marketing they did anyway, but it was very little. That was the first publisher I was with. They um, but they were transparent, they were like, we don't have a budget, and so we're gonna do a couple marketing campaigns that cost us X amount of dollars. We're gonna offer it to our authors for this amount that you can contribute. I can't remember the word they uh their word for whatever. Um, and I'll be honest with you, that I found that to be not really effective. Um, I didn't think it did shit. I don't begrudge that publisher, that was their model. They were very transparent to me. It just did not do much. What did do a lot was everything I did on my own. This is 2018. Um, which at the time, like blog tours were big. Um, I was on social media, especially Facebook back then was really, really, oh yeah. Back then. Fast forward to now. Um, so the publisher that I was with in January, that's Wild Rose Press, they're also very honest. They say, look, they don't they don't pay, they don't like ask you to pay them money or anything. Like there's nothing like that. They're basically like, we are not gonna market your book, you're gonna market your book. Yeah. So I marketed the hell out of my book. That that um publisher gave me the option to do pre-publication marketing for almost a year. So pre-orders, I had all the stuff, and I will say, like, that was interesting, and um, but I still didn't, I mean, at the end of the day, I think on Amazon I only have maybe seven or eight reviews for I Love That Girl, um, and more more from social media discourse. I got more from that. There's a few more on Goodreads. Marketing at the grassroots has been really hard, really, really hard. Yeah, and so for this uh this book, which just came out, there was no pre-publication marketing. So I don't really know what that would have done for this. Um, uh, I don't have a lot of reviews yet, but I feel like there's a little bit more happening with this one. I'm not really sure why, but for me personally, I just do a lot, I do do a lot of content, but I'm not like crazy. Like if I my content has to be super authentic. If you go on my Instagram, uh you'll see that it's some of it is just me like on a video or you know, I do use Canvas. Um, the most effective thing to be honest with you is going on Instagram and talking with other people, popping on people's pages, uh, conversating with readers and writers and talking about books I love, talking about like my own books, but just like conversation. I think conversation and authentic engagement is what gets people to really buy your books. I also think we're in a better time period. I think post-COVID people want to go to book events. I've had successful in-person book events this time around in 2025 than ever before. So book events are really good. Um, and that's been really good. Local marketing has been helpful. Um, yeah, I don't know. I wish I knew the magic formula for Netflix. I want Netflix to just please hide.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Just get on it, guys.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Do it. Like let's, it's gonna be a great mini, like a small short series or something. I don't know. I don't know if you know if anyone knows the the key to marketing. I I work my ass off, but I don't know what I don't know. I the one thing I don't the one thing I don't think works, because I've done it a little bit, is doing these things where have you seen that where it's like um follow for follow or oh no, oh no, I've learned my lesson. I sp I'm a little naive to it this time around, and I realized like that's not working. That's not not getting on those follow trains, you know, those follow things. I just don't think that that's the way to go. But if you have ideas, please DM me because I don't know what to do.

Offline Strategies And Local Media

SPEAKER_01 36:14

No, yeah, not at all. And I think like social media is just it honestly, I think making peace with the fact that we never are going to know how it works is something that I have found to be most helpful because the algorithm is just like it's this thing doing whatever it's gonna do. And every every time you think you have it figured out, it changes, and you're like, cool, that's fun. Uh so you just have to like that's my I'm like, I'm gonna post stuff that I like that I find shows my personality, that's easy, that's simple. Like, I love those cinematic cinematic reels that look great and they've put so much effort into it. I don't have time for that. It's not happening. It is not, it is not. I am not that person. I wish I was, but I am not. So I think just owning what you can do. Um, and then also you bring up a great point of like getting offline. Obviously, your book is analog, right? Like, so it makes sense, it works, but like that is rented space. So, how can you find ways to engage with readers or other people in your community outside of it? So, like, I know newsletters are super popular. Um, I have one, I don't do jack shows.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah, you know what? I'm with you. I gotta tell you, the newsletter is bullshit, it doesn't do anything. I don't do anything. Um, it's there. Yeah, but it's another thing in your inbox that like clutters. I think what you just said is so important. I do think we have to get out pound pavement. I live in Rhode Island. Rhode Island is like everyone knows everyone. So the cool part is the look local media, all you gotta do is talk to one person and like you're you're just kind of you're just kind of on that track. We are very small and we might as well be part of Massachusetts. And so, you know, like I think that in-person stuff is really rewarding. And if you just get up and start talking to bookstores, walk in, yeah. You know who's been great to me? Barnes and Noble. And I know that is not as controversial because they're not an indie bookstore, but they have been so amazing. So have some of the small indie bookstores that like are, you know, they're everywhere. It's like new ones everywhere. Um, they've been super wonderful, and local media just have a weekly newspaper in my hometown. And of course, I know the woman who runs it because it's Rhode Island and we all know each other. Use your, I mean, this is where networking, and I don't mean to sound like one of those people, but I will like just open your mouth, run around, hold your book up, tell people you wrote a book. Have a good mouth. That's to me been the most effective thing is just to tell people all the time.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah, totally. And I think it's cool. Like, I chatted with one author where she'd go to the library sometimes and like start chatting with people, and then she'd be like, So I wrote a book. Would you like and then the she's managed to get it in, or like people are starting to take it out, and like all of that stuff happened because she just decided I'm like, I need this in front of people, and it's it's gonna happen one way or another, so I better, I better do it.

Street Teams, Reviews, And Authenticity

SPEAKER_00 39:19

I agree. I also think so. Here's the here's an interesting thing too is like free digital copies, like offering them online, yeah, um, encouraging people to review. I think the downside of that is I know people do these um street teens and I've tried it. I personally, it's not been super effective. What has been effective is to ask people if they want to read, send me a DM, sign up for this link. But to assemble a team and then expect them all to read it, I just that I learned quickly that that's not the way to go. However, I had 11 or 12 people actually sign up so I know they're reading it, and I know. They're gonna probably eventually post a review as opposed to kind of like this street team where I don't I'm not really feeling that that anyone on that is gonna read this book, you know. I think those are hard, those are hard things to do. Um I also think that um I think engaging with people online in authentic ways. Yes, I just think that's the best thing to do. We're all looking for authenticity. Everything is AI, everything is like a bot, and I just think that authentic engagement is the way to go. And just understand that this is you said it earlier, we're this is um not a race, like it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Like we it's gonna take a long, long time for sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Definitely, definitely. I still feel that. Well, it's been so lovely chatting with you uh this morning. I feel like I again I learned so much. Um I would love for you to share how people can follow you and obviously get your books in their hands because that's another important thing.

unknown 41:02

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Um, I am always on Instagram and I'm on Instagram uh at Hannah R Goodman75, not very original. Um, it's H A N N A H R G O O D M A N, the number 75. I'm on Instagram all the time. I just started a book, a tick, a book, TikTok. TikTok, TikTok. I feel you on that. I don't understand it. It's I have a funny video on there where I'm basically saying I don't understand it. So I'm on there, I think across the board it's Hannah R. Goodman uh Facebook, Hannah R. Goodman author. Um, and but Instagram is probably the best place. And then I also have my link tree um on my Instagram. Um, but buy by high school epic, please, everyone, please, please, and call Netflix for me. Just like pass it along because can we change the algorithm by screaming Netflix over and over and over again?

Where To Find Hannah And Closing CTAs

SPEAKER_01 41:58

I don't know, I haven't tried it, but I feel like it's worth it. Worth a shot. Worth a shot. Amazing. I love that. Well, everything will be linked in the show notes, so it will be super easy for people to click through and find it. And maybe I can see if I can find a like Netflix, please buy my buy my book uh link as well. And like I said, it was so lovely chatting with you. Um, I feel like it was such a vibe. So thanks so much for listening to today's episode. And if you really loved this author, I highly encourage you to go check out their links and comment and share their work because let's be real, as an indie author, all that stuff makes such a difference. And if you're feeling a little stuck on your draft and just want some gentle accountability, check out my one-to-one offers that are linked in the show notes as well. I'd love to support you with your writing or editing journey. And if that's not quite where you're at, I've also put together a really amazing free resource to help with taking your writing to the next level because there are so many amazing resources available without needing to spend a ton of money or get that MFA or all of the things that you may think that you need in order to write a book. Until next time, keep writing your way and trust yourself enough to tell your story. Because I promise, if it's coming to you, there's a reason and someone needs to hear it.