What’s preventing you from being inclusive? Is it judgment? Fear? Bias? Do you just not know where to start? That’s okay! Risha Grant’s super power is radical candor so she’s joining today’s show to tell you exactly how to practice self acceptance and have conversations that matter.
At Metlife, we are committed to diversity, equity and inclusion and we believe making a difference in the lives of our customers, community, and the world around us is #AllTogetherPossible. Learn more and join us at MetLife.com.
What’s preventing you from being inclusive? Is it judgment? Fear? Bias? Do you just not know where to start? That’s okay! Risha Grant’s super power is radical candor so she’s joining today’s show to tell you exactly how to practice self acceptance and have conversations that matter.
At Metlife, we are committed to diversity, equity and inclusion and we believe making a difference in the lives of our customers, community, and the world around us is #AllTogetherPossible. Learn more and join us at MetLife.com.
I think that we can all admit to and we can all say I can be better than the BS that's holding me back. And it doesn't just hold you back in diversity, it holds you back in life.
Speaker 2:This is Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations that Matter. I'm your host, dr Cindy Pace, vice President and Global Chief Diversity, equity and Inclusion Officer at MetLife. Our podcast examines the pivotal role people play in creating inclusive workplaces that are built for the future. How does inclusion impact our well-being? Why is it a business imperative? In each episode, we weave together storytelling and research-driven conversations with globally recognized authors, experts and DEI practitioners. On the show, we tackle steps that each of us can take to advance DEI.
Speaker 2:Judgment, Fear, bias, not knowing where to start. We have so many excuses that prevent us from being inclusive, but Risha Grant is here to tell us to stop the BS work on ourselves and practice radical, radical and non-violent work. Stop the BS work on ourselves and practice radical acceptance. As you listen to this episode and as you hear Risha's story, I want you to think about where you might carry judgment, consider why, and treat yourself with grace and radical acceptance as you work on letting go of those feelings. I think Risha's superpower is radical candor. Get ready for an episode where we tell you exactly how to have conversations that matter. You know the producers and I when we're not producing, we're having conversations and we talk a lot about superheroes. So you probably would have heard some episodes where we've talked about the Power Rangers. We talk about the Avengers. We're all we are just really fascinated.
Speaker 2:I love it. So, thinking about the Avengers. Since you are a fan of the Avengers, you know there's an origin story. So, for Avenger Risha, what is your origin story? How did you come to this work?
Speaker 1:It is a great question, and I came to this work in high school, actually, and I've been out of high school, I think, 31 years now, and so I'm from a predominantly small white town in Oklahoma, and you know, even when you're not from, you know, predominantly white town. The way history is taught to us is in a way that doesn't give you much to appreciate about black people or people of color, or you know just about anyone that does not fit into being a white person or a white male, and so I would sit in these history classes and learn about the history of black people, but it always revolved around slavery. And then there was, of course, martin Luther King, sir John O'Trues, rosa Parks right, and Malcolm X. Those were your, your main people, and I remember there being a part about Cleopatra that we were learning and one of my best friends said oh yeah, cleopatra was black, and the history teacher and the students are there. It became this debate, and so I remember sitting there thinking, okay, there's one person that's not a slave, that's not. You know, that was this super important person Back in the day and we've got to have a debate about. You know, you're not even gonna let us have that. And so from that point on, I just began to write every paper that where I was able to choose the topic, I wanted to educate other people and myself about what the contributions were of black people.
Speaker 1:And so as I got older, you know, got into college, and all that I realized, well, black folks aren't the only ones struggling here. So that's how I got to diversity. But once I got in college, I remember talking to an advisor and I didn't want to be a teacher. It's like what can I do with you know my love of black history? And I remember her saying you know what? There's a group or a troop that you can join, where they are going around and putting on plays, and they dressed up like Harriet Tubman and I thought I'll pass. I was like I'll pass, I don't want to spend my life dressed up like Harriet.
Speaker 2:Tubman. We thank you, harriet, you know what I'm saying. We thank you for the underground railroad, but I don't want to you know, I don't want to do that. I'm not trying to do that.
Speaker 1:And so I was like how do I marry my love of communications with my love of black history? And I remember doing some research and I was too young and bold to know that I didn't know anything it was. It was actually a superpower. I didn't know anything, but I got all this research together and I just started calling every PR firm for my degrees in communications. And so I just started calling every PR firm and saying, hey, you need to add a multicultural arm onto your farm and I'm going to run it.
Speaker 1:Never mind that I've never read it before, but I got this. I got it though. Trust me, I got it. They were all just like, yeah, you know, I was all of all of 22, 23 years old and it started from there. But I never. I dug in and I thought I started meeting with other people from the Hispanic community, from the LGBT plus community, and realized that, hey, this is not just about one group of people, this is really about all of us. And so it's been something that I've been committed to for pretty much all of my adult life. Once I once I realized I was not going to be a WNBA player. I dug in First half of my life as basketball. I went to Kansas State on a full basketball scholarship.
Speaker 2:Oh, I want, I really want to go into that and I wish we had gone to school together, because I was the kid that nobody wanted on their team. Had we been together, I know you would have helped me. But say more Risha about how basketball has helped you in business, has helped you in your life.
Speaker 1:Basketball is everything Business has been. So hard it is truly. I started the first diversity communications firm in the state of Oklahoma. Wow, and when I tell you that I've been doing this 25 years now and Long before it was hot you know, long before it was in in a place like Oklahoma made it very difficult you start to lose your worth.
Speaker 1:You know. You start to say, okay, nobody cares about what I'm talking about, people don't understand the importance of this. But in all of that, while you're trying to sell it, you're also devaluing your price and devaluing all these things. So basketball was that thing that taught me. No, you don't settle for this. No, you lost. Go figure out how to win. So I just sat back and did what I did in basketball. I practiced the thing every day that I needed to do. So I would get up and be in the office at 6 am every morning with no clients and just and this is going to age me but I would get the phone book out and just start calling. You know, one thing I learned was that I was selling diversity as the right thing to do. People didn't care there was a right thing to do, they cared about their bottom line. Finding that research 25 years ago was insane. There was one company that. What was it? The Sealick Center, I believe, for economic growth. I think the University of Georgia.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, the multicultural marketing report.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was the only place in the world that you could find any information related to try to build that business case for diversity. So once I figured out, okay, this is what I have, I remember buying the CD wrong you know and trying to pull all those stats out. So it taught me to prepare. It taught me to strategize. It taught me to figure out how to win.
Speaker 2:What you're talking about is important, and having an understanding of why you're in this work. So you know, as you talked earlier about your purpose, and your purpose was to do, you know, to be able to educate, to be able to communicate the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion. Have that intersection of communication and DEI, which is rare. There are not a lot of firms or people like yourself doing this work. How did you expand into writing books and becoming an international speaker?
Speaker 1:I always wanted to be a speaker. I always wanted to write a book. I Always wanted to own a seven figure business. Now, it took me 25 years to get there and In 2016, I literally had had enough. I was done. I was Overdi. I was over people. I was business was not. It just didn't feel like anything was working, mm-hmm. And so I started on my first book.
Speaker 1:Gosh, I don't know, I was 10 years prior to that and I remember one of my best friends lived in Dallas and she's an editor and I sent the book to her and she sent it back with and we have a really interesting relationship she sent it back with all these red marks. It's like she used a red Sharpie and just went through the thing and she just like lit into me about all this stuff. So when I got, I pulled out that and I saw all the red not just through the thing in the cabinet For this. And so all these years passed by, I 2016 happens and I realized that this is not going the way that I think it should go. I'm tired, I'm not, doesn't look like I'm going to to hit these goals, and so I I Pulled that book out, I closed my office doors and when I did that, I had to get rid of half of the book and I sat there in the house for like a week.
Speaker 1:I mean, I didn't open the blinds, I turned the phone off. I got up at 5 am and I wrote that other half of the book and I had to. You know, you hear all the time, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Oh and so yeah. So I, because I'm very, and I think, as a black woman, in the way that I was raised, I'm very late.
Speaker 1:It has to be the best it could be. It has to be perfect. But I didn't have the time nor the resources to wait on that. So so I got the book together, I had a few people read it and made a few more changes. I hired an editor and I put that thing out and I thought, if I can, if I can start speaking, I could sell this in the back of the room. So then I called a speakers bureau that had seen me speak about three or four years earlier and they were very interested in me, but I didn't have any video, so I called them back to see if they were still interested.
Speaker 1:I end up getting this woman on the phone who was doing some work for them. She doesn't actually work for them, but that's who they had to reach out to me. We formed a relationship. One story short, she said, hey, I represent a few speakers, I'm done with the project here and so I just want to let you know that I'm leaving, and I just want to leave you hanging. And I said wait, can I go with you, you know? And she was like well, yeah, I'm very small, only have two other speakers. I've been working in this business for a long time and I mean we work together, just I mean seamlessly. And she said give me a year and we're gonna do this and you need to do this. And I did all the stuff she told me to do. And she did all the stuff because she had to learn about DI. And here we are, five years later with a multi, multi-million-dollar company.
Speaker 2:Look, at that. Look at listen. I have to go back to this quote because this, this was a mic drop moment. Okay, don't let perfect Be the enemy of good. Yes, let's just sit with that for a second. We need to have that. Okay, do you have merch?
Speaker 1:because you need to merge this.
Speaker 2:You need.
Speaker 1:I don't even know where I heard that it's it is, but think about how many times we don't put things out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not, and I've had to. I am a recovering perfectionist. Yes, because it does come back sometimes. But that getting to Good or good enough, mm-hmm, that is actually what gets you to make it even better, because you can't always, you don't always have the answer by yourself, right? It's like when it gets out and gets socialized and gets used, then you're like, oh okay, I see how I can do this, this and this. It's almost like an iterative process. But if you let perfect Hmm, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes, we're going to keep that with us. So so, richard, you have another book coming out. It is out, it's out, so the book is out. Okay, so the book is out. Tell us about the book, and why did you think it was important to put the book out now?
Speaker 1:So the book is called be better than your BS Mm-hmm, and it's how radical acceptance Empowers authenticity and creates a workplace culture of inclusion. And I thought it was super important because I've been at it 25 years Now. I've seen a lot of stuff. I've gone through my own BS. The one thing that was constant, no matter who I was talking to or what company I was I was consulting with or speaking for, there was a lot of bulls*** going on.
Speaker 1:Bs, I mean BS and that and it now in my first book. Bs stood for for bias the naps, and this book it stands for bias fear and I will believe systems. But at the end of all of that is the bulls*** Mm-hmm, because we learn in our bias fear that's a term I coined. That is really about the people and the Institutions that we're steeped in since birth. Right, those circles of influence. So first your family. You know, I like to think of it as we were born with a clean slate. We come to this one with a clean state, but the people in our lives download images onto that slate for us.
Speaker 2:We are told how to think, act and feel from the moment we're born. The people around us are parents, grandparents, friends, communities offer their opinions on topics from what religion we should be To, who should we talk to and what school we should go to. That's not always a bad thing, but we have to be careful to consider what to do with this advice.
Speaker 1:We get stuck in. Grandma said, mama said, daddy said this happened to them. So I should not like this group of people, I should be mistrustful of this group of people. Now, I'm not saying that those things aren't important. What I am saying is you cannot carry something to happen to grandma on 1920 up until my 10th to 2023, intrigue people as if they're the ones that created the offense and I know that's not a popular saying, because you got a lot of people of color out there saying wait a minute, because of what happened, I'm not benefiting and I don't have the same advantages. So I'm not saying that those things don't matter, but what I'm saying is we got to place it in the right place, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So I I'll tell everybody I had a mistrust of white folks and I still struggle with it to this day because of the things that that I've been through. But also, had I not been willing to get to know Shannon, which is my speaking agent, I probably wouldn't be sitting here with you today, because I had to get over the BS of the mistrust of all of the the things that I felt around white folks. I had to do that for my entire business, because if I'm going, I'm going into every meeting with this thought of Okay, I don't even know why I'm talking to these white folks, they don't care, they ain't gonna get it. That may be true for a lot of them, but then there's somebody that says no, richard, this really makes sense. How can I support you? So I think that we can all admit to, we can all say I can be better than the BS that's holding me back. Right, and it doesn't just hold you back in diversity, it holds you back in life.
Speaker 2:It does, because you know, to your point and I liked how you framed we come into the world with a clean slate right. And then there, that's why I always say, culture is learned Very much. We are born, we are born into culture and we are born and born and born again, because Cultures shift. Whether you know your high school versus your college, your first job, the community that you grow up in, if you move and go to another, that's another culture. And so if we don't to your point and it reminds me of the transformational learning theory which is around these habits of mind that we form and if we don't critically question how we came to know what we think we know, we're really kind of operating on an autopilot, we are operating in the land of assumptions. And so that you know the work that you're talking about, we need to do in the book, you go into this concept of us really understanding judgment.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what you've talked about a bit here is let's level set on this. When you think about judgment. How are you defining that, risha? How should we be thinking about judgment and how it shows up in the workplace and impacts our ability to be inclusive and create the conditions for people to feel like they belong?
Speaker 1:Judgment is all around forming an opinion, but I believe that we form those opinions based on very limited knowledge about people. Okay, you know, we will look at someone, we will size them up, and I always have my audiences do this exercise. You're on an airplane, they've announced that the flight's completely full, but that middle seat next to you is open, so we all do that silent prayer. Please don't sit here. Please don't sit here, right, Because we've all done it. We are all guilty.
Speaker 2:I'm the one put in the middle seat. Okay, I swear they look at my profile. They're like, oh, she's a petite person. Yes, in the middle seat. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we don't want. We look at people in three to five seconds and we judge them based on what they're wearing. Maybe they have tattoos everywhere. Maybe they have diet hair, maybe they have piercings everywhere. Maybe they have a kid with them, right Whatever it is, or maybe they're obese. We make judgments so quickly about people. When it comes to the workplace, we are making those same judgments about people and it is affecting the way that we treat them. So, if I don't like your skin color, I don't like who you sleep with that night. Maybe I don't like the way you talk, I don't like the fact that you're from a small town, I don't like the way you dress. That can impede someone's progress and upper mobility at work, because not only are we judging them, but we are then displaying behaviors that are stopping them from living to their full extent.
Speaker 2:These are the moments where we have to be better than RBS and focus on the factors that matter at work.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter what you think. At the end of the day, are they doing the job that you hire them to do? Are they doing that job well?
Speaker 2:I like that. Risha, tell us what we can do. I know we need to. First of all, we need to all go get the book right.
Speaker 2:We can be better than our BS. Okay, and we wanna share, so we wanna have conversations with each other. One of the things that we highly recommend is that people learn together. So starting your own book circle where you're coming together, you talk about the book, listen to this episode of the podcast and talk about those key things that you're learning and hold each other accountable for something you're going to do to change. Can you give us one or two nuggets on how we can address our judgment, our biases?
Speaker 1:Yes, first and foremost, my big answer there is radical acceptance. That is really what the main theme of my book and radical acceptance is.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is the practice of welcoming and embracing people's full humanity, including our own, with no BS. So what that means is that people get to be who they are. They get to authentically show up as who they are. It is not their job to deal with your BS, it's your job to deal with it.
Speaker 1:So think about who makes you uncomfortable and why, when you get on an elevator and someone gets on with you who makes you kinda, you know, shrink in the corner and pull your personal items in closer, that when that happens to me, I make a different behavioral decision in the moment. Instead of me like thinking I'll be glad when this elevator gets to my floor, I smile and say, hey, how's your day going? Nine times out of 10, people have all the stuff going on that has nothing to do with you. That 30 seconds on the elevator you're gonna find out that this person is married or has kids or is dealing with the six spells, or I mean something is going on. But the fact that you smiled and the fact you know these are what I call microinclusions the fact that you smiled, the fact that you opened yourself up, can change the trajectory of somebody else's day.
Speaker 2:Based on Richa's insights, let's all try to carry out a microinclusion today. Say hello to someone you've never met before. Send a coworker you usually don't talk to a message. Give a compliment.
Speaker 1:So radical acceptance. First, you're gonna radically accept yourself. That is really difficult to do. There are so many things about us that people tell us are wrong that it's difficult for you to truly be who you are. Figure out what that is. Do that thing so that you can love yourself. Then you're able to extend that love toward others. And then there's radical acceptance of others. You know that means that you are allowing them to be themselves. That means that you are treating them with the humanity that they deserve. And then that last one is radical acceptance of the world.
Speaker 1:Am I willing to lose everything in the moment to win humanity in the end? You know, because sometimes we have to be willing to be wrong in order to get it right. And people are scared of being wrong. They're scared of saying I don't know. They're scared of saying, well, I didn't know what to say or how to say it. Or you know, and you're still complicit, whether you do or you don't Right. So it's like I don't know. We've forgotten those. To me, those really basic things of just interacting with another person.
Speaker 2:That's what I was going to ask about the interaction, because one of the things that I believe with inclusion is every moment that we have, every time we interact with someone, that is a moment to call in inclusiveness right To be able to see that person value them and respect them. And it also means that we have to interact outside of the people. We know Right that we have to really be able and willing to expand our networks, our connections, and we've talked about connections on the first, in the first season, we had a couple of great thought leaders come in and talk to us about the power of connection and actually the impact on our central nervous system and, when we have feelings of belonging, feelings of connectedness, how it releases all of the positive hormones, the endorphins, and it lowers the stress hormones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's a basic human need. It's basic human need.
Speaker 2:But if we can get over that first stress that you're talking about, that anxiety and fear that we might have of the unknown I don't know this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we may not have that trust yet. But if we can get through that and, as you say, have this radical acceptance of ourselves and our ability to be able to connect with others, then you're right, it will make our work much easier because people will come into the work valuing being human beings.
Speaker 1:We can learn a lot from kids, from kids that haven't been, that we haven't messed up yet, right, Right, because kids will go and play with each other. They don't care about skin color until you tell them to care about it. They don't care about what you have on until you tell them to care about it. So if we would adopt that same thing of just going up to a person at work and saying, hey, how's your day going? A lot of times, 90% of the time, people have stuff going on that has nothing to do with you. They didn't smile at you because they don't like you. They did not smile because they don't like you. They didn't smile because they're going through some really tough stuff that has nothing to do with you and they're not really even thinking about you. But I think, especially for those in leadership, when you accept a leadership position not that you don't get to be human, but it does mean that when you don't feel like smiling, you still have to smile and say hello.
Speaker 2:All right as we close out, risha, this has been a great conversation. Is there anything that you wanna leave us with that we can use to be better than our BS?
Speaker 1:I think if I could say anything to anybody, I would say don't forget to see the humanity in each other. We are all going to make mistakes, we're all going to say the wrong thing at some point in time. We're going to go through things that are so difficult and so hard. But when you can see the humanity in somebody else, when you can give them grace as they go through those things and maybe you can have a conversation with them. If something is said in the wrong way, we get so much further. Because the reality is, if we don't figure this out together and see how we're stronger, we'll perish together Like nobody's going anywhere. So let's try to see the humanity in each other.
Speaker 2:There you have it. Thank you so much, risha. It's been a pleasure having you on Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations that Matter. Thank you all for joining me on this episode of Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations that Matter. You can learn more about Risha Grant and all of our guests at MetLifecom. At MetLife, we are committed to diversity, equity and inclusion, and we believe making a difference in the lives of our customers, community and the world around us is altogether possible. Learn more and join us at metlifecom. The link is in our show notes. Please don't forget to subscribe to our podcast Inclusion Begins With Me Conversations that Matter, on Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. I hope you also take the time to rate and leave our show a review Before we go. We'd like to thank our podcast partner, human Group Media, who helped us produce this show. That's it for today's episode. I hope you join me in the next one.