Manjusha and Govind Pillai on Devotion, Desire, and Brown Queer Dance at the Opera House

The Season 2 finale of Under the Brown Rainbow welcomes two guests: Manjusha (she/her) and Govind Pillai (he/him) – the producer and director-choreographer behind Temple of Desire, the boundary-pushing classical Indian dance work that sold out its Sydney Opera House season on 4–5 June 2026.

In this conversation with host Kashif Harrison, Manjusha and Govind unpack the world they've built with Karma Dance, a "sacred meets sensual" reimagining of Bharatanatyam that sits the classical form right next to queer and trans reality. They talk about reclaiming pre-colonial traditions that were "straight-washed" out of the art over 300 years of colonial influence, the lost poetry only now being translated, and why this work isn't an act of resistance but an act of love for the tradition itself.

We also hear about the long, latent journey of bringing personal queerness and artistic practice into congruence, the Mohiniyattam dance form as inherently trans, why art needs to lead social change (legislation alone can't move hearts), and what it means for brown queer storytelling to finally take the mainstage — followed by a closing-night party in the Opera House foyer with DJ Goddess Naavikaran.

Under the Brown Rainbow is hosted by Kashif Harrison and produced by Kunal Mirchandani. Presented by Trikone Australia.

Transcript

0:10

And I'm so proud to be hosting Under the Brown Rainbow in season two as well. You know, the way this podcast was created was to tell more stories from the community, and I feel the season has just done exactly that. So many stories from the community and so many stories yet to tell. I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for bringing Under the Brown Rainbow into your favorite podcast listen. Bringing a podcast is hard work and we would love if you could support us. So make sure that wherever you listen to the podcast from there is a support option. So support whatever you can. We appreciate your love in any way or form. And this is also that we can bring season three with a bigger, brighter, Queerer browner rainbow to you all. For now, let's begin the season finale episode of Under the Brown Rainbow. All right, everyone, welcome to Under the Brown Rainbow, where South Asian queer stories come to life. And this is the finale episode of season two. Oh my God, how did we get here? But I'm so glad that I'm joining, you know, these two amazing human beings, because this is exactly what I think this podcast or the intention of this podcast was to create spaces for brown queer folks or brown queer people. And exactly this is what these two people, these humans are doing as well. And I'm so glad that I get to be doing this with both of them as a finale for this. Under the brown rainbow, very brown, very queer episode finale. So firstly, let's just introduce them. So first I've got Manjusha. Now Manjusha’s pronouns are she/her and she is the producer of Temples of Desire, which opens in Sydney Opera House this June 2026. Oh my God. Yeah. And then. And then we've got the star of the show, which is Govind, who is a Karma Dance classical Indian dancer and maker of queer progressive dance forms. Oh my goodness. Govind. Welcome to Under the Brown Rainbow. Thank you, Kashif. Thanks for having me. Just so everyone's clear that Govind and Manjusha are both doing Temples of Desire, which opens in Sydney Opera House in June 2026. What's the date? Exact date? It's the 4th to the 5th of June. Oof, wow. First of all, let's talk about Temples of Desire. Get it out of the way. So what is Temples of Desire and how did you both come to be together in it? Yeah, it's called Temple of Desire, and it's a show that draws on like a 3000 year old classical Indian dance tradition. It's an art form we've all inherited from our gurus and our ancestors. But we just think it's so rich with lots of amazing things that are relevant to people today. There's a lot of stories that are lost about trans folk, about queer folk, about the power of women. So we've created a dance work to tell those stories and to bring classical Indian traditions right next to and mushed in and snuggled in with queer and trans reality. So it's super fun. We've just come back from Canada, touring to Canada and a few places in Australia and we’ll be at the Opera House, yeah. Think sacred and sexy is the line that we're going for. Temple of Desire is like classical Indian, bharatnatyam explores sexuality, gender identity and the intersections of that. And yeah says that in a beautiful, mesmerizing, transformative way. That sounds amazing. And I'm pretty sure that many listening to us or watching us would probably go like, okay, definitely booking my tickets in. Let's go. Now, can I ask this question is I'll ask them one by one and I'll think that I'll just go with you Manjusha first, that for the people who are listening to you and watching you for the first time, they're getting this introduction of Manjusha. So what shaped you to into the person that you are today? Proud queer, brown woman. And who is out there telling her story and doing this, you know, in an art form? So yeah, go ahead and tell us your story. Well, I am a very direct product of my family. And, you know, as most South Asians are, I feel like we, for better or for worse, take a lot from our family and our cultural roots. I've been, from a young age, thrown into the world of arts. I found expressing my identity and queerness through the friends that I made through my art. I found my people. And I found a way to belong in an identity within the safety of the art space. And I think that's one of the few spaces in this world where queer people can exist and create freely. And then from there, I just want to create more spaces like that, you know, more spaces of inclusion and belonging and making the world a more inclusive space for everyone, really. That's where my story began, and my path kind of led me to. yeah, I've just been really lucky, I guess, as well, because, you know, not everyone can just automatically fall into the arts and be kind of nurtured over the years and have the opportunities that I've had. Again, I'm very grateful to my family for supporting me through that journey as well and continue to support me as well. So yeah, I think it's very it's very rare and lucky. And the stars all aligned to create and form the interactions And the stars all aligned to create and form the interactions and the people that I've met along the way, including Govind, trailblazers, you know, who have been working their ass off from the start to try and create more inclusive and queer spaces, and It's been a huge journey, I think. Yeah. And that is just always so nice to hear, you know, that owning or especially when you're like, so true and full of, you know, that, hey, listen, I don't want to hide, I just. In fact, I just want to show everything, what I'm made of. When you have that spirit in you, everything just, like you said, falls into a, you know, alliance together. And the part just forms. And I think you're doing it brilliantly. Can I ask you that, see, What was it like growing up South Asian while discovering your queerness? It seems like your family is a very loving family, which we love to hear They’re accepting as well. Was it always the case, or was it a little bit of, you know, push and tear? Would you like to share that? So with my with my family, I guess I have been lucky because I have come from matriarchal lineage. My mum has been remarried twice, so I guess I'm not from your conventional household. We've had to adapt as a family, and my mom has been a trailblazer in that way. I've seen very strong women effectively grown up with the influence of very strong brown women, whether it's my gurus, my mother, my aunties, whoever it is. And I think that was what made me as confident as I am to just own it and not really, you know, the need to hide too much. Obviously, growing up, I've had a very secret double identity life. Most of my life, as most queer brown people do. There are many hats we wear, I did a Commerce degree. You know, there are lots of things that I've done, which obviously is something that I've had to navigate my own path through. But here I am. So, you know, I think it's one of those things where it's still a work in progress. I'm not perfect, I'm still working through so many things and also working with my family around so many things as well. But again, like finding the right language around gender, sexuality and identity, communicating that with family, intergenerational conversations like that. All of these things are not things that happen overnight. It's very interesting to hear everyone's stories come together I think. Yeah. And that was my next question that, you know, you've collaborated with Govind who's a director of the Karma Dance and also the director of Temple of Desires. And he's known for creating queer progressive classical dances. And how did this collaboration come to be? I guess we were making queer, progressive work for a while and often in the doghouse because, you know, the traditional community was like, oh my God, what are they doing with our art form? And the queers were like, oh, we want, you know, club cabaret acts. We don't want like classical Indian dance. So it was like there was no home. And so we kind of just kept making work. And then at the time we had a academy where we're training students and then Manju used to start volunteering there for a number of years And it's like a story of how community work is how this stuff gets made. Everything from minding children to getting hair done to actually, you know, stage managing a show, like – It takes 50 million hands to put something on like that. And that's how it started. And then since then, you know, we've kind of grown to do different works. And then Manju was involved in taking, you know, in the show when we went to Toronto and touring and, and now coming back home. So it's just one of those beautiful stories I think of when just like Manju says, when you find your friends and you find your people that you know so much magic happens when you're when you're in the safe company of each other. So yeah. See, that is, you know, the best part of it, that when you find your people, you just want to keep on doing more and more for them, to educate them, to bring them on world stage. And I think that's that's the intention, right, to be seen, and If you feel seen, you want everyone else to be seen as well. And you've somehow become this Mother Teresa figure. I feel right. You're like, oh my God, I just want everyone to be seen. Yeah. So. So Govind, can I ask you that? See, you are a dancer and, you know, Bharatnatyam, it's a very hard form. I remember growing up because I grew up in Dubai. It was a very Indian cultured school that I was going to. And my sisters were, you know, big on Bharatnatyam classes. So I've seen how hard it is as a kid looking at my sisters. But then now you, you know, years on, you're doing Bharatnatyam, but as a queer person and you're mixing it like you said, it's a very queer, progressive dance form for you now or the acts of it. What do you think Bharatnatyam can explain to people about queerness? That's a really exciting question. You know, I think there's a lot of ancient wisdom that is embodied in that art that has been passed down, and we call it Bharatnatyam today, but it came from all these historic places, and it was influenced by so many things. And, you know, one example in it is that, you know, it teaches people to not identify themselves by their birth certificate, by their age. It teaches you as a practice to be older in some situations or younger to explore different age identities. It teaches people not to be the gender that's on their birth certificate. It says that any dancer enters the room, leaves all of that at the door, and enters, you know, just as a configurable, entirely flexible, beautiful unicorn. And then the art and the piece evolves you to be what it needs to be. So, you know, you might leave the studio doing a piece of work where you're a 50-year-old trans person who lives a different life to what you learn. So it really teaches you, to to see the world differently. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things it can offer us today. You know, and when people watch dance, that is uses those principles to try and look at the world differently today. It's amazing. Like, you know, we just fall into the arms of audience members crying, you know, at the end of shows just going, I see myself differently. And that's what, like Manju says, it's what makes us tick. You know, we need those spaces to feel that way. It's really powerful because it kind of provides a blank slate, right. And then we can create and tell and re-tell stories that some have been forgotten as well. I feel like when we think about gender identity, queerness, sexuality, it's always been there in our practices. A lot of it has been taken away from our practices, actually. We are almost reviving it at this point or at this point where we are going back to our roots, the pre-colonial roots. So I think that's also important to acknowledge. I think, you know, what we were taught is a very contemporary form of Bharatnatyam, right? Right. And then now we are decolonizing and going back to a form or trying to reconnect with a form before that. And see, that's very interesting because I remember that. Yes, Bharatnatyam or any dance form, the way sexuality is taken out from it, and it's just a dance form and, and some, some might even, you know, make it a bit more holy. So it becomes this really sacred place where any mixing around with it gets you into trouble. But I think now places, you know, and even art forms have become so progressive that this is okay. And this is like you said, you're just reminding what was already there, which may have been, I don't know, straight washed. Is that even a word? Yeah, totally, it's a good way to put it. Yeah. Like so much erasure of of the sensuality of the art form that, as you say, was always there. So much erasure of the, you know, the power of women that was always there, so much erasure of the, the voice of the, the farmer, the, you know, the person who wasn't in the upper caste, the person who, you know, was a person of colour and not the colonizer erased, you know, and us told that that's the right way to do it now. And we're like, no, no, that's wrong. Wait, actually when we do it, it's out of love for traditions because we actually love it more, not because we're resisting it. And it's kind of like, pining and longing instead of desire. We question a lot of the lyrics and a lot of the compositions as well. If you look at the classical compositions and the Carnatic work, the poetry that has been written, some poems haven't been fully translated. For example, some poems have been inaccessible to us for so long and are now just being discovered. And most of those voices are voices that express like gender, sexuality and fluidity and identity. And these things are kind of at a point in history now where we're like, oh, reclaiming it. It's not even like we're doing anything new. We just kind of have forgotten it in human history. And that's what happens with 300 years of brainwashing. There has definitely been that brainwashing for sure in dance forms, See, I was born and raised in Dubai, then Pakistan. So my familiarity with Indian music or my culture, which is, you know, part Indian as well, was just Bollywood movies. And I remember how I used to admire and it's just nothing to do with what Zeenat Aman was wearing or what was going on. But whenever Satyam Shivam Sundaram song you used to come. I just used to be in awe and it never used to be like, oh, what's your culture, what's your identity, what's going on? It was just this pure aweness. That this is a human form. This is God's beautiful creatures. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And then somehow people just say, oh, no, it's straight. I don't think there's any gender in that form. It can be translucent, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say that all the gays love Zeenat Aman. And I think that's why she's a queer icon. Because of that. Because of that movie. She was a rebel of her time as well. Like, you know, doing stuff like that at that time was very progressive. So we don't give credit where credit is due. So yeah. And I love that it's called Temple of Desire because sometimes I feel desire becomes very sinful. Now Temple of Desire explores where the sacred meets the sensual right. What inspired you to create this work and what can people expect from this? I think yeah, you said it really well. Temple refers to spirituality and desire refers to sensuality, and we really wanted to put the two right next to each other, because actually, the way it began for us in our forms is that they were all mushed together. The poetry was sensual. The way people worshiped the gods was through sexuality and sensuality. So we wanted to put it right next to each other. And when people leave, what we want them to feel is that actually that the world has promise and hope for togetherness and that all we have to do is hear everybody's stories and listen. And if we spend time like an audience member would listening to the stories, they can feel profoundly elevated. So yeah, we want people to leave with hope because the show ends in a place of euphoria, queer, belonging and just beyond queer, you know, acceptance of minorities and places in an uplifting way. So yeah. We wanted to create a world where both temple and desire exist, coexist together. And and that is this world. And we kind of wanted to, you know, we wanted to have the audience member walk away with that feeling of belonging and just held. I think that's something that we felt in Toronto was very widely received, which we didn't expect because we didn't know what to expect from the audience members in Toronto, but People came up to us afterwards and were like, I wish my dance classes were like this. I wish that I would. I would have continued dance or I would have kept going if I felt like I was accepted in this way, like, you know? This expression through the media of dance, made people feel like there is a space for them to exist. That's the kind of intersection that we kind of live in within Temple of Desire, which is really powerful. Speaking of a lot of queer brown folks, for us, art forms or even dance forms are a therapeutic experience for us because then we get to explore. We get to express without any questions being asked. I mean, that's in an ideal world. But then, you know, sadly, with the classical practices, even in the process of teaching Temple of Desire and sharing it with our Canadian dancers. We do this really amazing format where we take dancers with us and we also work with the local dancers. So even in Sydney, for example, we just finished our auditions and we're working with Sydney dancers. They're learning the choreography right now and they're preparing for the show at the moment. So that's all happening at the moment. But in that process, the dancers themselves also go through this process of unlearning and healing within their own practice Because there is, unfortunately, a lot of violence. Violence was a term that one of the dancers used in our practice. You know, unfortunately there are spaces. These spaces should be open and, you know, beautiful creative spaces where you can be, but unfortunately, it can be quite, can be quite intense and quite toxic to some. And unfortunately, a lot of people have this experience where they feel like they don't belong in these spaces for whatever reason, because of their skin color, because of their caste, because of their religion, because of their gender identity, sexuality. And they were rejected from the arts, especially within South Asian art spaces for so many reasons, you know, and there's so much gatekeeping as well, which, again, Temple of Desire is like a process of unlearning for everyone who is involved, including the dancers. From Melbourne Fringe to Sydney Opera House, like you know, how are you both feeling? Is it butterflies still settling in? Are you still super excited? It’s Sydney Opera House. It’s not a big, you know. It's iconic. And there it is, a brown queer dance form being celebrated. So this is a big win for you both. So congratulations, first of all. Thank you. I think it is. Yeah. It's for our community too, like a big win for our community because a lot of times these kind of stories are, you know, in the suburbs, in the community halls, in the quiet gatherings, which is a beautiful space for them to be had. We need them in our community. But it's also really important for them to enter what is the main stage or and be be seen in, in, you know, the general world of art. So we're super super excited. One of the things I'm most excited for is that the show always ends On the closing night with a party, which is a takeover of the space. And so, you know, the foyer of the Sydney Opera House will be full of queer brown folk and there'll be a, you know, DJ goddess Naavikaran, who's a trans. Everyone's invited. And it's a celebration. It's a collective liberation for all of us, so – Part of this process from Melbourne Fringe has been about finding what spaces do we really deserve as a community, and how do we bring everyone there? Because, because we live here too, you know? That’s the thing, like where is the South Asian art in the mainstream spaces? I mean, we are literally one third of the population of this country, but where is it in the art scene? Tell me, like, I don't understand. There's like a billion dance schools in Sydney and in Melbourne, like literally throw a stone and you can find a classical Indian dancer in any of these cities. But where is the arts in the mainstream space? We can't be watching Swan Lake every day. Like, you know, there’s more stories out there that needs to be seen on the mainstream stage, and Australia has this identity of what is Australia, what is Australian culture, what is Australian art. And I feel like these are things that need to be rethought and are evolving. I'm actually super excited about the Opera House because not only are we performing there on that weekend, we've also we're super lucky. Bangarra is also opening the same weekend as well, so it's like a brown takeover of the Opera House, literally. And we love hearing that. In all across the board. So we're going to be partying it up and super excited so everyone's welcome to the party after the show as well. So stick around. Don't leave. Don't leave at all. Are you both promising that there will be classical mixes and remixes? Oh yes. It'll have like Bollywood. Tollywood, Mollywood, Kannadi, Hindustani, you got a mashup of your life, your dreams, I just want him to play ‘Bhor Bhaye’ but the remix version out loud. So good. It's on the request list straight away. Yeah. Don't ever go home. That's all. Just stay with us forever. So can I ask that – See, in our episodes in season two, we had beautiful conversations, and a lot of those conversations were also kind of pointing towards when someone like us, who has to always choose between culture and community, right? Or culture and identity. So my question is to you both. So growing up, when did you guys feel that That's my culture, which I genuinely love. But there's also my identity, which I want to take with my culture hand in hand. So what was that feeling like? And maybe just if you can talk us through that a bit. It's a really good question, a tricky one, because it's such a journey for all of us. And sometimes you get through it and you look back and you don't know how it all happened. So I love I'm sort of replaying, you know, journeys in my mind. But, you know, I think as a person. I would have been a teenager when I realised that these two expressions had to coexist. And I think I found private spaces in quiet places where, you know, I did that with, you know, I hid from the rest of the world. And there was this very, very latent long journey of actually bringing that out. You know, as, as we say, you know, into the open. Strangely, I think my artistic journey lagged another ten years behind that. So it was only in my like 20s and 30s that I felt comfortable putting those two things on stage. And I see it still today and people that have similar identity intersections to me, where it's not in their work on stage, but it is in their private life. And I remember that and it's hard. And so, you know, I feel like that was way later, like the person I was on stage was really, really straight down the line, you know, yet. You know. Meanwhile Saturday night, you know, so you know, it was and suddenly I just these last I'm going to say five years I felt a real congruence of person and art and, and whatnot. Well, for me it was interesting because I guess it was when I was early teenage years when I really thought about my art form. I think I have to I have to thank my art form. So I'm a classically trained Mohiniyattam dancer. Now, Mohiniyattam is a very interesting dance form. It is a trans art form. I don't know, I'm just going to put it out there. It is Vishnu becoming Mohini, a seductive woman to seduce the enemy through the form of dance and then kill them. And this is how my art form was originated. Right. And so, as soon as I was like, thinking about that for more than five seconds, I was like, wait a second. So there is both male and female identities here, like this is this is very interesting. And the art form itself is centered in this femininity, this really exaggerated feminine energy of like and is practiced by women, taught by women, shared by other women. And you're on stage like being very sensual and very, very sensual to nothing. So it's very interesting. It's almost like you're depicting gender and sexuality to thin air. And so yeah, in my teenage years, I was very lucky in the sense that this, this was my medium. So a lot of how I saw the world was kind of shaped around that. And so dance and personhood like was very like intertwined for me, I guess, in a in a lot of ways. So, yes, I had my secret life of exploring my sexuality and gender identity outside of dance. And being a dancer in the social kind of society construct of being a diaspora child in Australia meant that I was a goody goody two shoes of some sort. But at the same time, it's kind of like, well, actually my, my, my art form is quite sexual, so I don't know. I think for me it was a very different journey, but I started questioning a lot of things very early on and learning more about my practice. That identity helped me unlearn and learn more about myself, I think as well. I remember as kids, we used to love watching Chandni. by Sridevi, you know Sridevi, Rishi Kapoor, it’s Yash Chopra. Favourite movie ever. Mum used to think that I was in love with Chandni, but if I'm being very honest, I used to imitate her as a kid. I used to be very. I used to dance a lot as a kid. Yes, especially. That dance when, you know she's doing that, I think she's peacocking. Yes. You know, that classical number that happens where she's in the white ensemble and just like that pure energy, man, I was just in love. And I was like, wait, I want to be. It's not that I love her. I love her as a queen, but nothing in, you know. So, wait, is this weird? Am I different? Because I would go and watch Shahrukh Khan’s movie and feel like I want to be adopted by him, you know? But I was in love with him, so I think I had daddy issues back then. It was just so different. Because we don't get enough in in popular culture to help us read those feelings. Right. We know how to deal with boy meets girl. We know how to deal with dating in the conventional sense. We know how to deal with even baby making, you know, not dating donors, getting sperm donors, having, you know, children through IVF. There's no like so you're right. Like, how do you process this feeling that you've got for Shahrukh Khan and this feeling that you've got with any of the information you have in the world to help you? Right. So I totally relate. I still remember rewinding and watching like those romantic songs and being like, so what, they just dance? Like I don't know, is there nothing more? Yeah. The flowers shaking. Yeah. Yeah. But I love, you know, Kashif, you saying you grew up in Dubai and like, I just love how we've been finding through this project as well. Like how shared and common these experiences are, despite the fact that like, for example, in our group, out of the 16 dancers, there are people that were born in Malaysia, in Toronto, in Papua New Guinea, he lived in Papua New Guinea, the Pacific Islands, Brunei like the Indian diaspora or South Asian diaspora. More clearly. Yes, we can sit around and have a chai and talk about all of this because it's so common, you know? And I just love that. That's our story. You know, we're so lucky, you know, to have this vision. Yeah. For our community. Right. It's beyond a certain country. We are crossing borders. We are just binding together based on one thing that we have in common, which is queerness. Absolutely crazy queerness. Yeah. Can I ask you that what do you hope young queer South Asians feel when they see themselves reflected in work like this, Temple of Desires? What do you think they can take away from this? That anything is possible that if they want to go on stage and do some insane queer stuff, they can. They just have to apply for funding and get, you know, certain amount of experience but they can get there eventually. I want your young queer person that because if I think when I was 13, 14, 15, I wish I could see something like this. And it's partly why we're making it, you know? So I would love them to sit there, experience the work and see a crowd full of people at the Opera House applaud the queer and trans South Asian experience, not look down on it, but applaud and celebrate it because it's beautiful and their feelings are legitimate. I just want them to feel that rush because I would you know, I feel it every night when we do the show, when the audience says, yes, we heard your story. And I think the amount of self-harm that's happening in our community, the amount of lack of safety in common spaces, that applause needs to be heard by everybody because that's, that is that is safety. That's so, so yeah, that's I really hope that they can have that experience. I think for queer, young queer people, they face so much discrimination on so many levels. And it's like so much rejection as well. I feel like we live in a world that just says no to everything in a lot of ways. And for young people specifically, there's like, you know, if you get told enough times that this is not possible or no, or enough doors have been shut, you just give up, right? And I think that's such a shame, especially for artists and creative people, because you need you need that 5% of hope. And I hope that, you know, when we were in Toronto, we gave we gave away tickets for community and we had subsidized tickets, and people came and they were like in tears because they were like, you know, they've never seen something like this. They didn't know how to process it, they didn't know how to process the power and the the amount of what we were giving or putting out there. It's a lot. It's in 40 minutes, but it's a lot. But if you can, if you can sit through the 40 minutes, it will be. It'll change your world in a lot of ways. Maybe see the world in a different lens that you might not have walked into the audience with. You know. That is so beautiful. And what is, if I may ask, that? What is that one thing that you've heard from someone after watching your show that just, you know, stayed with you? One person said that for them it was all the histories and futures combined, and it really puzzled me and just enlightened because I was like, it's forward and backwards at the same time. They can see the vision for queer reality and they can see the burden and the trouble we've come from. So that was really pretty special. I think, yeah, for me being seen especially, we have a we do have a scene of nudity within the show and we had a lot of people come after us and were in tears, being like I never thought I would see that in a Bharatnatyam performance. Like, I never thought that there was a world in which that could coexist, you know? And that was really powerful for me to feel how seen people felt after that. Yeah. That is so interesting. And I think that's the power of art. It depicts what's the real life, but also, you know. The stage. Like it's just. Difficult for me to say what I'm trying to say. Like someone said to you that, you know, I never thought that both of these things could coexist. That's the same in in the current world situation. Right? We could, you know, that our forefathers, our moms and dads could not feel that they could ever coexist with someone who's queer. And now their sons and daughters are queer, do you know? So it's a very different, kind of progression and era. And I feel the world needs it. The world right now needs it. There's a lot of hate, there's a lot of negativity, wars. And I think this is such a beauty. This is such pure soul, and this is pure hope. So true. Yeah, it's so true, Kashif. And it's like, are we gonna – what is faster? Waiting on politicians to make social change or waiting on artists. And I would say probably artists first. You know, the speed at which we can propagate, you know, different stories, perspectives. So faster than the legislative machine of government, like, you know, it's just. And also, even if legislation changes. You need hearts and minds and people to change hearts and minds. And like, you know, we we have seen that in so many times within legislative history, even with the referendum or the, you know, the ‘yes’ vote. So like, you know, it's one thing to want to have government change and policy change, but actually we need to change how people are seeing the world and how people feel. About it. Yeah. So true. And that can only be done in art. And I hate how arts is always the first to get cut in terms of funding. I'm so mad with all the funding cuts, but I think, I hope that the larger society realizes that if you fund the arts, then the arts can change and create the world that you want it to be. Then we can have the legislation follow through. I think that's I think arts should take the lead. But that is my just my two cents. Art should take the lead, drop the phones, drop those Instagram Reels and TikToks and everything. Just follow art. That's what I would say. Can I just say, Manjusha and Govind, it's a beautiful feeling having you both on Under the Brown Rainbow. These conversations, I can go on and on and on. Restriction of time. I just saw the timer. But I just want to ask you last question that for someone who is young, brown, queer, listening to us, watching to us and like, you know, feels a bit seen, feels a bit heard, feels a bit felt. What would you tell them? I'd say that you are resilient because of what you've gone through, so you actually can face the challenges. You know, you might think I'm looking at coming out, or how am I going to deal with X, Y, Z? And you might think you don't have the capacity. You actually have a strength of capacity because of what you've gone through. So I would actually say your resilience is in the heart of how you exist because you're queer and because you're brown and you have you have it. So yeah. Don't doubt yourself. Yeah, I would say lean into whatever you feel like you want to do or have been putting off, or have been scared to. Just lean into it. Because at the end of the day, on the other side of it is in a community that's waiting to hold you and to to be a part of your world. And there are so many people out there like you, just waiting for the right opportunity or the opportune moment. And the opportune moment is now. There's no neon light. So just say, you know, if you need a neon light saying, go now, go. Thank you so much. And all I would say is that to our listeners, our viewers to go and book your tickets to Temple of Desires, which is opening in Sydney Opera House. June 4th to 5th. Oh my God. Thank you so much, both of you. I wish you all the very best. I really hope that I get to see Temple of Desires. If the tickets are left, I will definitely go and book myself. If the tickets are left, I will definitely go and book myself. But it would it, you know. Can I just say what you're doing is beautiful, keep doing that and keep telling the story. Because I feel for so many brown queer folks out there, these stories really, really matter. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Kashif. Thanks for having us.