Episode 6 - Vanessa Watson

Vanessa Watson joins JSL’s Chief Diversity Officer, Vickie Hubbard, for the sixth episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast! In this episode, Vickie and Vanessa discuss Vanessa's decision to join the legal industry, the importance of mentorship and sponsorship to young lawyers, and the issue with retention at law firms.

Vanessa Kaye Watson is the Senior Vice President, Assistant General Counsel for Consumer Solutions at Mastercard.  In this role, Vanessa manages a global team of attorneys responsible for Network and Digital Payment Services, Blockchain & Digital Currencies, Foundry, Consumer Products for Issuers, Acceptance Solutions, Segment and Fintech Solutions and Optimization and Economics.

Prior to her current role, Vanessa served as lead counsel for a few groups: Franchise, Public Policy, Compliance and New Customer Types, North America region of Mastercard’s Data and Services business, Services Lead for North American Markets, and global partnership counsel for Data and Services. 

Before joining Mastercard in 2011, Vanessa was a senior associate at Weil, Gotshal & Manges. Vanessa graduated from Fordham University School of Law and is a member of both the New York and New Jersey State Bar.

In addition to her day job, Vanessa enjoys and has spent her entire legal career giving back through not-for-profit board memberships, volunteerism, and mentoring.  

Transcript

Not Your Average DEI Podcast: Episode 6 - Vanessa Watson

 Speaker 1 – Vickie 

Speaker 2 - Vanessa 

Transcript 

 Speaker 1 

(Intro) 

Hello everyone, thank you for joining our next episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast. jurisADVANCE is an extension of JURISolutions Legal, also referred to as JSL, with a primary focus on diversity, equity and inclusion in the legal industry. We are honored that you've taken time out of your schedule to gather with us as we share, learn and grow together as one legal community. JSL is one of the largest certified women owned legal services firms in the country. 

We are passionate about providing stellar legal talent to our law firm, corporate and government partners nationwide. We're even more passionate about the strides that we are taking with our new diversity consulting service line, jurisADVANCE. The purpose of our show is to have authentic conversations about the gaps within DE and I in the law. 

So tune in each month as a different host from JSL’s DEI Team pulls up a mic and shoots the breeze with key legal and diversity leaders across the country. Excited yet? Well, you will be. We certainly are! So let's get this show on the go. And remember, this is not your average DEI podcast. 

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning into our show today. For those that are new to the show, my name is Vickie Hubbard. I am a member of JURISolutions Legal’s DEI Committee, and joining us today is Vanessa Watson, Assistant General Counsel of MasterCard.  

I am so excited to have Vanessa on our show, and I believe that you will be delighted as well, I look forward to learning about Vanessa's prior experience as a performing artist, as well as her career trajectory as a successful attorney. Everyone, let's give Vanessa a big welcome. Hi Vanessa. 

 Speaker 2 

Hi Vicki, such a pleasure being here. Thank you so much for having me. I am looking forward to today's conversation. Let's jump right in. 

 Speaker 1 

Yay, I love that! Oh, my goodness, I am so excited about this particular episode because we have so much in common. 

 Speaker 2 

I know! 

 Speaker 1 

Everyone, I spoke with Vanessa for a while before she agreed to be on the show, just to give her an overview and to learn more about her background and oh my goodness, trust me, Vanessa is amazing. So, what I’d like to do, Vanessa, is start off the episode with a few fun fact questions. Would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? 

 Speaker 2 

Well, of course, I'm pretty sure some of your questions would get to this, so I am from Jamaica, an island in the West Indies. I'm a proud Jamaican, and I came here as an adult, so by the time I moved to New York in the United States, I had already completed not just my high school degree, but also a college degree and that college degree was actually in dance.  

So, I am a certified dance teacher and I came to the United States to spend more time with a part of my family that I did not grow up with, and also to continue furthering my education. 

I am a lawyer; I am a mother and I'm proud of all of the different roles that I play. I'm a mentor; I'm a sponsor; I’m a mentee. I love giving back. I love community service, volunteerism, you name it. You just have to ask if there's a need, I'm always there. 

 Speaker 1 

I love it. And what was your age when you moved here from Jamaica? 

 Speaker 2 

Twenty. 

 Speaker 1 

A dancer, and coming to New York from Jamaica is so exciting, so at some point, I want to talk about what that experience was like as a creative because I am a creative as well, as part of my personal background and so that really does excite me. 

So, you state that you are a mother. Do you mind sharing how many children you have and what their ages are? 

 Speaker 2 

Sure, so I have two children, a boy who's the older of the two, he's 16, and a girl who is 14. 

 Speaker 1 

With everything you know that has happened within the past few years, the pandemic and of course the tragic death of George Floyd, you know, I'm really curious to know, if you don't mind sharing, what impact has that had with your children, as teenagers? 

 Speaker 2 

So many. So in 2020, I think just around the time, it's hard for me to remember now whether it's just before or just after the George Floyd incident, in our very community where we live, and at that time had lived for five years, my son was actually out with his friends in the community and someone called the cops. 

My son is a black boy, he has, you know, a diverse group of friends, but called the cops on them because they were being out on the street and so the cops came to my house to ask about my son and his friends. 

And that had such a profound impact on me because of what was happening with the George Floyd incident at the same time, that it really became personal, it kind of felt like, not only is this happening out there, it is happening right here in my home that, potentially, if I was not home to answer that police officer, what could have happened to those kids, including my son? 

It just brought home in me how vulnerable and exposed our young men are, and that was deeply personal for me. It really just reinforced to me a few things. One, tomorrow isn't promised; we have to live for today. It isn't promised. 

And the second one is we cannot live a life in fear. The third thing that I came upon was, we can make a difference. I saw that more clearly in that, as I was bringing my kids to march and to advocate for the fact that our lives matter too. 

And it's important that we have that voice and stand up against injustices. So, a lot of reinforcement, a lot of reminders about life being short, fragile, and we have to protect it, and we have to protect the future for our children with everything that we have. 

 Speaker 1 

I love that. You know how, you know, you lose someone near and dear in your family, and you think, to your point, tomorrow's not promised, right? And you hear it all the time, but it really doesn't really resonate until you have a direct experience. 

And so, it's just so interesting that you make that point. I want to talk about, before we delve deeper, let's try to lighten it up just a little bit before we make that transition again. 

So, you know, back to the arts, back to you moving to New York from Jamaica as a dancer, I'm curious to know about, and it can be a brief response, because I think about my first year here in Los Angeles when I transitioned from Saint Louis and what that looked like it was so exciting. 

I was in the similar age as yours, a little older, but just so excited about the experience and I'm just wondering, as a dancer in New York, you know what was that like for you, that first year? 

 Speaker 2 

So, that first year had a really, I think I did a lot of growing up in that first year. I had spent six years with this company in Jamaica, singing, dancing, acting, and touring with musicals, and it was a dream come true and I just felt like I was going to come to New York, I was going to continue on that journey and then I I was met with, “okay, are unionized?” 

I was like, what are you talking about? “Where are your head shots, are you represented?” My pivotal moment was when I was performing at Lincoln Center. 

It was my final performance with the Performing Arts Group in Jamaica. They had come to New York, I was already living here, they still considered me an international member, and I performed with them and I remember performing at Lincoln Center and we were getting $10 a day for that performance and I knew that the tickets, I think they were like $200 at that time, or something like that. 

And I did the math like, 2,000 seats times 200 and I was like, we're getting nothing, like, someone else is making money off us and I kind of pivoted. I looked over at Fordham Law School and I was like, you know what I'm gonna transition over to the legal profession and represent people like myself who are being taken advantage of, and so that was a pivotal moment for me, at least, in my mind 

If you listen to some of how I was raised, everybody earmarked me to be a lawyer because I was always arguing on behalf of my cousins, who I grew up with. So, it's probably a combination of that seed being planted and heard over the years, and me thinking, okay, New York, new opportunities, time to transition. 

 Speaker 1 

I really do love that story. In life, as an artist, what I've learned is that for as long as we live, we can be so many different things and we don't have to have just one dream, you know. You can always circle back. 

 Speaker 2 

Yes, I don't think I ever left the arts. I think I chose a different career, the place where I make money, but I never left the arts. 

 Speaker 1 

So, understanding your motivation from making that pivot at that time in your life to an attorney, I wanted to talk now about your current career and your current role as Assistant General Counsel with MasterCard. 

Before we talk about MasterCard, I'm curious to know, what was your early career in Big Law like? What were some experiences or maybe 1 experience that you had that would add value to the listeners today? 

 Speaker 2 

So, the law firm environment, and I started off in what's called Big Law, so this is a top 10 law firm in the United States with thousands of lawyers globally. And it was challenging, but I had people, and there was one particular woman, I remember I clerked with her in my third year of law school, and she was from the law firm that I started at. 

And, during my first or second year in the firm, she spoke to, and I wasn't working with her directly, but she went and she spoke with the attorney that I'm working on and she's like “Vanessa cannot do any more discoveries. She is too talented, you need to have her drafting motions, and no more discovery.” 

And I think I pulled out the discovery and, you know, got to do more drafting, and so on. And the same thing with one attorney who just, essentially just took me under her belt and put me on every single matter she was on. 

I was doing all of her presentations on whatever she was presenting and there were times when I would look at her and I was just like, “I don't even know some of this stuff” and she's like, “you know a lot more than you think you do and you're a lot more capable than you think you are.” 

And those words of just affirmation as a very junior attorney in Big Law really went a long way. And those women who stuck their necks out for me, I mean to say “I believe in you, I have faith in you, and you have the potential to do all of this and so much more.” 

So impactful. And so, while it was difficult, while racism was evident, while I wasn't sort of the chosen person who was being brought in for golfing or spending weekends with partners, I still had guardian angels, and in particular there was my summer associate, who was a white woman. 

We shared an office together and she stuck her neck out for me continually. Like, it was amazing where assignments were available in particular areas people would say it's not, but she knew of them and she'd be like, “why can't Vanessa do this?” 

And so just having these people just stand in for me in rooms that I'm not present at was amazing, and that's what a sponsor does. And you don't realize that till, now I'm at senior level at MasterCard and now I'm in those rooms, and now I'm doing the same thing on behalf of women and other underrepresented groups that a lot of times are overlooked for whatever reason, and now I'm able to make that impact. 

So, it's powerful, and it starts very early and just the recognition now, hindsight is 20/20, of all of those who stood up for me in rooms that I was not present, I don't take it for granted and I see it as an opportunity to pass that on to anyone who I'm able to impact or change their lives. 

 Speaker 1 

That is wonderful. I love that because that was going to be one of my questions regarding sponsorship, mentorship, how valuable, impactful, important do you believe that to be?  

And you just answered that for me, so I do appreciate that and so I want to connect that to your personal initiatives as it relates to mentorship. Would you like to tell us a little bit about that? 

 Speaker 2 

Sure, so, I'm one of those people, if there is a need and you ask me, it's hard for me to say no, I've gotten to a place where I've gotten a little bit better because I've filled my plate too much, but I am parts of formal mentorship groups and parts of informal mentorship groups. 

And like I said, I will be a sponsor and advocate for people in places where they don't even know that I'm speaking on their behalf, and I think that's very important. Everyone who gets to this level and beyond should never forget how they got there. 

And so, the constant reminder that you did not get to where you are on your own. As much as you like to think you're smarter than everyone else, you're well educated you're, you know, it's, you don't get to these places on your own because if no one is speaking up for you on your behalf, you just don't. 

You just don't, a lot of it is just relationships at some point, and so recognizing that, remembering that, and reaffirming that in terms of the way you live and show up in these cases is so important. 

And just bringing a young attorney along their journey and imparting in them whatever wisdom you gained along the way, that goes such a long way. 

And it doesn't take a lot of time. I think I have perhaps about five formal mentees and several informal ones right now. And it, you know, it takes like an hour, probably a month, to have a conversation, but when I think about the men teams that I have, almost every single one of them, and I'm not saying I'm responsible, but hopefully some seed I planted in them, the same way I got seed planted in me, has helped them get promoted to the next level. 

They all got promoted within that year of our mentor-mentee relationship and that's something I feel pride in for them in their career journey. And so, we have to keep doing that when we're in positions of influence or power or even just the ability to share some with them. 

 Speaker 1 

And for you listeners that are thinking, you know “I want Vanessa to be my mentor,” well, maybe, maybe not. I don't know, Vanessa? 

 Speaker 2 

I can't commit to everyone, but I certainly, I mean, this is why podcasts and a series like this is important because hopefully, someone is hearing nuggets of information that can help them along their career path. 

Because sometimes you don't need, and we were just having this conversation internally within MasterCard, you don't need to speak with someone necessarily every week or every month to learn something. 

So, if you are listening, know that you're awesome, know that you are capable of so much more than you believe that you are, and don't let anyone put you in a box. I always say I'm not a lawyer in a box. 

We have so many things that we're capable of doing and being, and impacting people around you. Like, take the time to just change the environment around you for the better. 

 Speaker 1 

Absolutely, and perhaps this conversation will inspire other senior level attorneys to raise their hand as mentors and sponsors as well. 

 Speaker 2 

Absolutely, we don't operate in islands, and we definitely owe it to our community and our society to make a difference when we are able to. 

 Speaker 1 

Absolutely. I want to talk about MasterCard and your career advancement up the ranks, it's very fascinating. Would you like to share with us, you know, you started at what level, now, you’re Assistant General Counsel, how did you get? 

 Speaker 2 

So, I started at MasterCard in 2011. I was the first Information Services Counsel that was hired. Information Services at the time, was before they called it big data, so it was the data analytics group that was under this new leader they had hired and apparently, from what I heard, they were looking for someone for that role for a solid year before I got it. 

And so, I got that role. I started off first Senior Counsel. I'm a big proponent of women being compensated for their work. 

That's the one thing, I know my worth. I know my volume. I took a huge pay cut to go to MasterCard, but it wasn't lost on me, that when I looked at numbers to try to figure out what the market is, I was going to take the opportunity to advocate for myself. 

So, maybe about three years in and here's just a little nugget that I will drop for those of you who are listening. I have a three-year and I didn't strategically think about it, but when I look back on my career, I've spent essentially three years in every role. 

The first year is learning, the second year is making a difference or an impact, and then by the 3rd year you've sort of mastered it. Then it's time to move on. So for me, maybe about two or three years in, and I didn't ask to get promoted, I asked for more compensation 'cause I'm like, I knew my worth and I was like “I should be getting X” and I wasn't, and they said, “well, you're kinda at the top, so in order for you to get extra you have to get promoted.” 

I was like “okay, however it happens.” So went from Senior Counsel, at the time, they change the titles, it was like Senior Business Leader and then I was responsible for all of North America advisors’ work, which is the services arm of MasterCard. 

So, at the time they did Information Services, Managed Services, and Consulting Services within that group, and I was responsible for North America, as well as for partnerships in that group, globally. 

I did that for another three years at that level, and then it was time to look for something new. And so, I moved out of that group entirely and went into this group called Franchise. 

There I had, like, the biggest title I felt like, at MasterCard, 'cause I was responsible for franchise public policy compliance and new customer types. 

And if you know anything about a franchise, the analogy there is that MasterCard licenses its brand, the MasterCard Mark, to different financial institutions globally, to be able to use them on cards or in association with financial products, and you have to follow a set of rules or standards. 

Whenever people use a MasterCard, it needs to be a similar experience throughout the globe, and that's what our standards provide. 

So, I did that. This was a shorter one. This was not even three years this was two years in. An opportunity came up for this role that I currently have and I interviewed for this role. 

It was not me, how do I put it, there were lots of people who had been in that role or in that business unit who were thought to be more likely to get this vote than I was, but here I am. 

And so, the lesson is what's yours is yours. And people have said to me over the years, 'cause I've applied for other roles in between and didn't get it, so I'm giving you the shortened version, what's yours is yours. 

And a lot of time people - my friends, my colleagues, my peers, have gotten even more upset than I was for roles that I didn't get because they thought I was more qualified for it. 

And I always said, you know, there's something better for me and that wasn't mine, but the next thing is coming. And I'm in this role, I love the role. I have a global team of over 20 people. 

And from soup to nuts, we look after everything that solves problems for consumers in the payment space. So if you think about the technology to make sure that transactions are safe so that they're tokenized. 

You think about installment payments. Everybody’s part of buy now, pay later, making that available on our network. You think about blockchain and digital currency and the emerging kind of technology, that is also a part of the group. 

ESG initiatives, your carbon calculator, how you're spending, all a part of the group that I support. And so, there's just never a dull moment and there's so much to learn. And I just completed one year in the role. 

 Speaker 1 

And I love that you've been able to move around because I want to be clear with the listeners when, and I don't want to speak for you, Vanessa, but my interpretation of what you meant when you said, you know, three years in a role and then maybe it's time to move on doesn't necessarily mean move out. 

 Speaker 2 

No, 'cause all of these roles have been at MasterCard. I've been there for 10 years and have held three different roles. 

 Speaker 1 

So exciting and very fortunate for you to be with an organization that gives you that opportunity to move around. I think about stretch assignments. Were you ever placed in a stretch assignment that before you moved on to a different role? Because I do value that. 

 Speaker 2 

When you say stretch, are you talking about in addition to what your day job is, you're taking on... 

 Speaker 1 

Yes. 

 Speaker 2 

All the time. All the time. I've done convents, I've done volunteer stuff all the time, like I volunteered for and was asked to lead some of our DEI initiatives in terms of recruitment, retention, and hiring of minorities into MasterCard and then for diverse supplier initiatives in the second year, so I headed that up. 

So that was not a part of my day job, this is what I did on the side, but it was, at MasterCard, equally valued and made a difference. I think out of the first initiative, you know, now we have a part of our policy is that you need to have a diverse slate of candidates when you're hiring, and that's now part of our policy and that came out of that group. 

 Speaker 1 

I love it. I am a big advocate of stretch assignments because I just believe that not only does it stretch you as an individual, and it awakens you to maybe skill sets that you didn't even know that you had because you haven't tapped into it as of yet, but it also provides that exposure for organizations to see you in a different way, to see additional value that you can add. 

You moved around so much and have been so successful, and so I didn't want to end without bringing up stretch assignments. I think that I've been stretched in a lot of different ways, and various organizations and it's served me well. 

So, why do you think legal departments, in corporations and in also law firms, why do you think they're struggling with retaining diverse talent? 

 Speaker 2 

So, I'll start with the law firms. I think the law firms struggle with retention because of their institutional structure. Which is, they have an up and out policy, so they're looking for people to leave. 

And the people who are invested in, who someone takes an interest in very early on are generally those who look like the majority in the partnerships, so you may have heard someone will take on a junior associate who reminds them of their niece, or their nephew, or their daughter, or their son, or their cousin, and they usually don't look like us. 

So, very few minorities are chosen in that way and are taken in as someone I want to grow, nurture and develop for partnership. And that's the model that's been there for years, particularly in Big Law firms. 

Until that model changes, retention will continue to be an issue. There has to be an investment. There has to be a recognition of how the institution is built and what the model is, and if law firms are serious about changing the dynamics about really retaining top talent for those who are underserved or underrepresented, they have to change the model. 

And in in the corporations, which I think are a lot more advanced, and MasterCard in particular, and are actually doing great work in terms of driving some of these changes within the law firms, like requiring that a partner have a minority or woman who's a successor to the business. 

Initiatives like that are helpful to sort of change the institutional dynamics within law firms, but internally I think corporations, more generally, can do more to promote and invest in those in underserved population minority, I know “minority” is not like, you know, a word that some people like to be associated with. 

The first time I actually heard it, I also thought, “this sounds a little demeaning.” Because it it suggests “less than,” and while I know “less than,” it's in terms of numerical, it's a number associated with how many of us there are in society, it still has that secondary connotation. 

So, Black people, Hispanic, women, those who aren't represented well at the tops of organizations. Corporations can continue to be more, but I think they do a much better job at retention. 

And it's really about training and investment in those sectors of the population that you want to keep, and giving them promotional opportunities. We need to see more of that with people who look like us. 

And I think that's why people lose talent because they're right there, right in front of you've spent all these years investing in them, and you haven't given them a promotion that they deserve, so they go elsewhere. 

 Speaker 1 

Well said. So, two more questions before we go. What is one of the hardest things that you have ever done but you reflect on it now and say, “it was worth it”? 

 Speaker 2 

So, I'm going to give you 2 examples and they are related, so I'm going to combine them into one. One of the, I guess difficulties in my career, as a woman of color in law, was being underestimated or undervalued. 

And, in two specific circumstances, they're almost identical, I was underestimated and undervalued, and there was an opportunity for me to work with the person who underestimated me. 

And, I went into both roles knowing this, because again, I know my worth, and I know my value, so if you underestimate or undervalue me, you just don't know me. 

And so, both times, it was an opportunity for me to present myself to you, so you could see the error in your ways. And I think in both situations it worked out well because individuals who saw me in one way came out, not shortly after, seeing me in a completely different way, and were just blown away. 

And so, those were hard decisions to make. I had to put myself out there. I had to be vulnerable. I had to be exposed. I had to take a risk, knowing that this could very well backfire because, I think when we even talk about racism, there's racism that you cannot fix. 

And I'm not saying either of these individuals are racist, I'm just using as an analogy, that if someone is racist, sometimes you cannot change them, fundamentally, right? 

There are people who are probably not aware of unconscious bias or microaggression, but there are other people who just don't like Black people. 

So, I was not going to be able to change someone's mind if they were in that camp. Fortunately, it wasn't the case in either of these situations. I don't think either of them were racist. 

I think it was just misunderstood and just not, you know, heard information that wasn't true and just bought into it.  

But the point that I'm making is in both those situations which turned out really well for me and I was able to get opportunities and promotions from them. 

I went in eyes wide open almost, like, knowing that you're going to work with the enemy, but I knew I was going to make them love me. That was my goal. 

 Speaker 1 

And it's all about perspective, I think. You know, even when you feel like this might not be, or may not be the most ideal situation. 

If I had it my way, you know, it would be totally different, but then thinking about, you know leaning into the positive. What can I do to have a positive impact on this particular experience? 

How can I show up as my authentic self, you know, with the confidence that you exude and demonstrate that no, I'm perfect for this opportunity and you're just going to love me because I am. 

Everyone knows it but you, and now it's your turn. I love it. Do you have any, as a final thought, a quote that you live by? 

 Speaker 2 

Sure, and this sort of sums up everything that we've talked about, 'cause I feel like we've touched on this theme throughout this conversation, and one of my favorite quotes is “bloom where you are planted.” 

It has been sort of my mantra and my theme. We like to go on journeys in our life and we think about the destination and a lot of times on our way there we have to make stops. 

And whether it's a pit stop, a long stop, we have to make stops. Journey, it's just not linear, and many of us get disappointed or bogged down in these stops that you have to take along the way to get to your destination. 

And that's where this quote becomes powerful is, you're planted somewhere, whether it's temporary or it's more of a longer term, you have to continue blooming. 

You can't wilt and, you know, fall apart. You'll never make it to your destination if you wilt and fall apart. And everything is interconnected, and the people you meet along the way are going to remember this moment, as well. 

And sometimes you think you want to go somewhere, but you really don't. Once you really sort of invest some time into where you are, you realize that you really need it to be going in a different direction entirely. 

So if you're not open to blooming where you're planted, you miss out on a lot of opportunities, and I use this to mentor to a lot of my mentees, particularly when I was in the law firm, because I would hear continually from them, “this is not what I w want to be doing 

, oh, this is so miserable,” and I said, you know what? 

It's not what you want to be doing, but you have a choice. And you don't have to be miserable. You can be the best at whatever it is that you don't want to be doing. 

Nobody would ever know that you don't want to be doing it. And that could lead you somewhere else, to a better place. 

So don't get disgruntled and feel defeated because of these stops and these places that you find yourself and bloom where you're planted. 

 Speaker 1 

I love it. When I say that we have so much in common, this is not scripted everyone, so you just heard Vanessa's quote that she lives by, or one of them, and one of mine is “shine where you are,” and in summary, it’s everything that you just said, “shine where you are,” if you actually visited JSL’s website you would see that quote that I have there “shine where you are.” 

 Speaker 2 

And I didn't visit, just so you know. 

 Speaker 1 

I know, it's not scripted everyone. This is so awesome. I have really, really enjoyed this conversation, Vanessa and I would love to tap you on the shoulder, maybe sometime next year, you know, for a follow up because it's just such a pleasure to speak with you and thank you so much for agreeing to take some time to speak with our LDAC community. 

I think that everyone would gain a great deal from this call. I know that I have. I've been very blessed, and I thank you for that. 

 Speaker 2 

Thank you, Vicki. It's been my pleasure. I enjoyed this conversation as much as I thought I would. 

 Speaker 1 

Awesome. Awesome. Okay so everyone, once again, thank you for listening to Not Your Average DEI Podcast. Stay tuned for our next episode.