Episode 8 - Jocelyn Armstrong

Jocelyn Armstrong joins JSL’s Chief Diversity Officer, Vickie Hubbard, for the eighth episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast! In this episode, Vickie and Jocelyn discuss attrition and retention, the difference between mentorship and sponsorship, and so much more!

Jocelyn M. Armstrong, Esq. is the Director of Inclusion and Outreach at the Ohio State Bar Association (Ohio Bar). She leads programming and integration of inclusion, diversity, and equity in association culture. Additionally, she oversees outreach to new lawyers and law students as well as OSBA member committees and sections.

Jocelyn is committed to advancing diversity and inclusion in the legal profession and broader community. Prior to joining the OSBA, Jocelyn worked as district director for Ohio’s 3rd Congressional District. She was also the Assistant Executive Director and Diversity Coordinator at the Columbus Bar Association. As a volunteer leader, Jocelyn was a member of the African American Law Alumni at Capital University Law School and served as President of the John Mercer Langston Bar Association (2015).

Jocelyn, admitted to the Ohio Bar in 2009, is a native of Toledo, Ohio. She holds a Bachelor’s Degree from the Max M. Fisher College of Business at The Ohio State University and a Juris Doctor from Capital University Law School.

While at Capital University Law School, Jocelyn received the Dean’s Scholarship, Class of 2006 Scholarship, and the Dean’s Public Service Award. Jocelyn remains active in the Capital community as a member of the Law Alumni Association Board and is a frequent panelist for prospective and new students. In 2016, Jocelyn received the Alumni Outstanding Service Award. 

Jocelyn also serves as a board member of Bridgeway Academy and an advisory board member for Breaking Bread: Let’s Talk. She is active in her church community including serving as a former member of the New Salem Baptist Church Trustee Board. When she’s not in meetings, Jocelyn enjoys yoga, reading, traveling, and producing the Inscribing Inclusion podcast.

Transcript

Speaker 1 – Vickie 

Speaker 2 - Jocelyn 

Transcript 

Speaker 1 

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast. Again, my name is Vicki Hubbard. My pronouns are she and her, and I am the Chief Diversity Officer with JURISolutions Legal, also referred to as JSL, and I'm also a member of our DEI Committee. Today's topic is “recruitment is where we shine, retention is where we fail.” 

And joining us today to add to our discussion is Jocelyn Armstrong. Jocelyn is currently the Director of Inclusion and Outreach for the Ohio Bar Association. I am super excited to welcome Jocelyn to our show. Hi Jocelyn! 

Speaker 2 

Hi Vicky, thank you so much for having me. 

Speaker 1 

So, before we jump into the actual topic of the show, “recruitment is where we shine, retention is where we fail,” I thought it would be great for us to first learn a bit about you, Jocelyn, and as I mentioned with the listeners you are currently the Director of Inclusion and Outreach for the Ohio Bar Association, so would you mind telling us a bit about yourself, about your role, your responsibilities, and why you would be a great expert for this particular topic of the show? 

Speaker 2 

Certainly, so I am an Ohio native and I'm an Ohio attorney, so I have wonderful and deep roots and an interest in DEI in our state and in our profession. I've been at the Ohio Bar Association Board for 3 1/2 years. Prior to that, I worked at a local Bar Association and that was where my DEI professional journey started. 

So, in my previous role at the Columbus Bar Association, I spent time working with the Managing Partners Diversity Initiative, as well as the Minority Clerkship Program. And so, the Minority Clerkship Program is a pipeline program to allow law students the opportunity to intern at a law firm or other organization for the summer and get some of that practical experience to match with their theoretical classroom experience. 

And the Managing Partners Diversity Initiative was a collective of managing partners who started a group with the interest and the intent to advance DEI in our profession, particularly in Columbus, and so they worked together to put on programs, and we also tracked data about, you know, recruitment and retention, and how folks moved up through the ranks at the law firms from associate to partner. 

And they would work with each other to try to increase these numbers or make adjustments where necessary. There was a lot of learning involved. They would meet regularly as well as bring in speakers to help them understand. So, I transitioned from the local bar into a different career for a short period, but came back to Bar Association life, because it's apparently what I really love. 

And joining the Ohio Bar Association meant I went from working with attorneys in one city to address diversity, equity, and inclusion to attorneys across the entire state. There's 88 counties in Ohio, and so you imagine that with 88 counties, diversity, equity and inclusion is one, a large undertaking, but two, it means different things for different people depending on where you are. 

For some, the focus is trying to make sure that we are looking at racial and ethnic diversity. In other spaces, there is a great need for generational diversity. Because you have fewer attorneys in some counties, and many of them are nearing retirement age, and there's no younger attorneys to fill those gaps, right? So that expanded and exploded my worldview about DEI very quickly. 

I've been learning and had continued to learn how to connect the dots to make sure that we're doing the right things because there is no one-size-fits-all as it relates diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that means for me working with law firms working with government agencies, courts, corporate legal departments. But even with law firms, when you think about DEI and what it means for them, Some firms are large and they have a lot of resources to lend to this effort, and some firms, there's maybe two attorneys and one staff person, and they really want to do this work, but they don't know how to get started because they feel like they don't have the requisite money or time or education and knowledge to get it done. 

And what we've been working on at the State Bar is helping them figure out. Whether you're a two-person law firm or a 200-person law firm, you can implement diversity, equity, and inclusion at your firm and we are certainly willing and able to help you do that. 

Speaker 1 

Oh, I love that. So, in your current role, first of all, how long have you served in your current role? 

Speaker 2 

3 1/2 years. 

Speaker 1 

Awesome, awesome. And you currently reside in Columbus, OH. Have you always resided in Ohio? 

Speaker 2 

I have always resided in Ohio. I'm not a Columbus native, though, I'm native to Toledo, OH. Which is in the northwest corner of our state. Just there on the West side of Lake Erie. It is a former manufacturing town. We used to make a lot of car parts and drive them 45 minutes North to Detroit. So, Toledo was a city that supported the big three, General Motors and Chrysler and Ford. They made auto glass and all kinds of parts. 

The city changed. I left in 1998. I visit, but I have not lived there in over 20 years, but it's definitely a different city than it used to be. Coming to Columbus, with it being our state capital, is a very different experience. It's more people and lots more space and diverse industry and opportunities. 

Speaker 1 

Awesome. And I bring that up because I was recently in Columbus, OH this year for the first time I went to Ohio and ironically, Columbus, where you currently reside for one of my godson's weddings. And I had the most wonderful time. 

As it relates to the data and the metrics as it relates to DE and I, regardless of whether it's a small law firm or, as you mentioned, a 200 plus law firm, are there any trends or outliers as it relates to data in metrics that you've observed over the past maybe two to three years? 

Speaker 2 

So, the trends are very interesting and we've seen in some areas growth as it relates to, for instance, women and the profession and the number of them that are entering the ranks of partner at their law firms. We've seen growth in that area. 

We've seen, albeit slight, a decline in the number of African American attorneys, particularly at the higher ranks in the law firms, and that is something that is interesting because when you look at the National Association for Legal Placement or generally known in the profession, NALP, they track a lot of this data annually. 

And they break it down by firm size and ethnic demographics and gender and across the major cities, and typically the larger law firms. And it was very interesting to note that in the last decade, the number of African American attorneys, for instance, has started to decline, as far as those reaching the partner ranks. 

We have seen an increase in Asian American Pacific Islander attorneys and I believe, Hispanic and Latino attorneys have held steady, so that's been very interesting to, like, we're doing all these efforts and yet we see a regression, if you will, amongst some groups, and that's particularly confusing and even reading the reports, there was no definitive reasoning behind why that happened. 

So, it's something that people are continuing, I think, to keep track of. It's also interesting to note, and I'm waiting to see how this plays out, when we think about graduating law school classes, and those also who worked as summer associates or summer interns at law firms, there is definite parity in equality in the number of men and women, and even in some cases more women, that are summer associates and recent graduates.  

And I'll be interested in seeing if that trend continues as they enter the profession and start to move up the ranks in their career and, you know, go from associate to a more senior position and then eventually to equity or not equity partner. Because currently, it's showing that the higher you go, so to speak, in the structure of the law firm, the fewer people you see that are from marginalized communities, be it based on gender or race and ethnicity. 

Speaker 1 

And to that point, that is really one of the reasons why I thought you would be a great thought leader to have on this show. Because optimistically, we have a lot of law firms that are listening to this particular episode that would appreciate any best practices, any suggestions from someone that has the years of experience that you have as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion, retention efforts, pipeline recruiting and really adding the greatest value to improving their own talent retention efforts. 

I thought you would be a great guest for our show. And so, as we make our shift to this particular topic, so we're finding, to your point, that associates are exiting, maybe after the first few years. Let's just say after the first four years with the firm for various reasons, some that you just mentioned that as they continue to matriculate through their tenure within a firm, they're not seeing many attorneys in those partner roles that look like them, so maybe there is a sense of a lack of inclusion, a sense of familiarity. 

And law firms, they realized this, especially over the past couple of years. They realized that some changes would need to be made. And as we enter into the latter part of this year, my thought is that those law firms that are really seeking to retain their diverse talent, this is a great time, a great moment for them to do some reflecting and to ask a few pondering questions that might help them to make a couple of adjustments before the end of the year. 

Or maybe as they begin to tweak their goals for 2023, some great questions that they might want to ponder, and so I want to deliver a few questions your way. And based on your observations, based on your experience, how you might respond to these questions from the perspective of a law firm. Or what suggestions you might have as a response to the questions. And so, the first question is what percentage of your exiting talent this year are diverse attorneys? Why would that be an important question for a law firm to ponder? 

Speaker 2 

So, that would be important for a law firm to consider because everyone experiences attrition. Many law firms, and as we talked about, there's a variety of reasons. Sometimes people have family circumstances that cause them to have to move away, or they've decided that they want to take a different approach with their career and maybe corporate life is for them or public sector. 

Or, they want to practice in a practice area that's not offered at their firm, and there's no one there to kind of mentor them in that way, so they have to do something different. But the reason that firms need to consider the amount of diverse talent amongst their attrition numbers is because typically that's already a small number in many spaces, and so if you have, say 20 attorneys that leave your firm, and 5 of them are people of color and there were only 8 attorneys of color at your firm to begin with. That is almost devastating as you're, especially if your firm is saying we pride ourselves on diversity, equity, and inclusion and what does this mean? 

And I would say that they should spend time in those exit interviews really trying to figure out why these folks are leaving the firm. And it could just be honestly one of those life circumstance reasons, right? But it could also be that maybe they left because they didn't feel included and so they were not getting certain types of work that would have helped them be successful in meeting their billable hour requirement. 

Or maybe it is a thing of I don't see myself at this firm because there's no one at the partner level that looks like me and no one at the partner level engages me in a way that makes me think that they could be my colleague, right? And so, they have to ask themselves that question, because again, attrition happens. But when attrition happens amongst attorneys of color, it seems more devastating because it tends to change the dynamic and, for the for lack of a better term, complexion of the firm. 

Speaker 1 

Yes, that's very well said. To your point regarding exit interviews and that data that's collected from those exit interviews, can you speak a bit regarding why it's important for that data to be considered? 

Speaker 2 

So, that's how you learn how to make adjustments and make things better. And hopefully, if people are, particularly leaders and hiring staff, are putting inclusion at the forefront of what they do, when the exit interviews happen, people will be honest and forthright about why they're leaving, and maybe offer suggestions about what can change. 

And if someone feels comfortable enough to share that then they will and that data is very informative because that helps, even as they're shaping position description to replace the people that are leaving. Or as their restructuring maybe their practice groups, they'll know, okay, we had X amount of people say these things to us in exit interviews, and this is a trend that we notice. 

People are saying flexible hours are more important to them. So, as we're considering how we work here, we need to make sure that flexible hours are included in what we offer to our employees. Or you know, maybe they're saying that the employer resource groups are nonexistent or that they're not effective. 

Okay, we need to bring someone in and help us, you know, fix this and make adjustments and what that means. So, they have to utilize that data to make adjustments going forward. They won't necessarily be able to fix it, if you will, with that particular person that's leaving, but if they're committed, they will take that. They will not view the feedback as an attack or an indictment on their ability to be an effective law firm or effectively hire diverse talent, but rather they will use it as a learning experience to make the necessary adjustments. 

Speaker 1 

I totally agree with that and I would also add that in addition to the data that's collected from exit interviews, that quarterly employee surveys can add a great deal of value as well because you can get in front of it. Once someone leaves a firm, there's nothing you can do because they're out the door. But there are proactive measures that can be taken if you’re consistently collecting feedback from your talent to see where there would be a need for there to be some tweaks to certain processes if you're seeing an ongoing trend. 

Speaker 2 

Truly, and employee surveys impact your culture overall. So, it not only gives you information that will help you become more inclusive for attorneys of color or others in marginalized groups, but for your entire staff. Including the staff, not just the attorneys, include the paralegals, include the administrative staff, include the janitorial staff if they are true staff members of your organization, as opposed to a third party company. Like, everyone needs to be included in that employee survey because it's going to make a bigger difference for your overall firm culture. 

Speaker 1 

Exactly. And we talk about inclusion, but we also want to be mindful of exclusion, right? And so, the surveys are not just for the diverse talent, it's for everyone. That's the goal. The goal is for every member of a firm to feel included. There's no isolation, there's no exclusion. Diversity, of course, is what our focus is right now, but we want, you know, all members of a firm to be a part of the vision, to be a part of the family, to be a part of the values, et cetera. And so I'm very passionate about surveys. 

Speaker 2 

I can tell! 

Speaker 1 

Yeah, I'm all about it! Okay so anyway, moving on. So, here's a question: does your website reflect diversity at all levels? 

Speaker 2 

So that's something that's important for firms to consider because, and it has to be photos of real people, right? People, I call it the window dressing or the commercials, you know, you go to the mall and they have the outfits in the window and it's wonderful. Sometimes firms will use stock photos, right? And so you see these people, but these are not people that actually work there. 

But more often than not, prospective employees will take a peek at your website and they will click through profiles and they want to see maybe who went to their same law school, but also who practices in what area and who's actually there.  

If I'm a young African American, female attorney who, I used to be young, but if I am that person, I'm looking at the firm, is there someone there that looks like me? Is there someone that looks like me that's, you know, a few years beyond where I am in my career? Because, is that person going to be my mentor? Am I going to be able to learn from that person? Am I going to be able to follow in their footsteps? 

And if I, again, I'm looking at who are the partners at the firm? Do these people look like anybody that I've ever met or I'm related to or know? Are there women there? Are there nonbinary people there? Are there people of color in that partnership, right? Because that's going to tell me, hey, you have a path here that you can actually get there because somebody else has already taken this path. But more often than not, because it's something that we teach law students to do, it's something that they know to do on their own, as well, they are looking at those websites to see who's there and what's going on. 

Speaker 1 

Exactly. They’re conducting that research before they even agree to an interview. Okay, here's one: what steps is your firm taking to prepare for the onboarding of new hire diverse law school graduates? 

Speaker 2 

So, I have been learning in my role both by things that we do at the State Bar and are making adjustments on and watching in the space broadly. Consistency and onboarding is golden when people arrive, and they're all getting the same experience at the same time. They know what's expected of them as a new hire. They get there and their laptop is set up. Their office is ready. 

You know, whatever that looks like, everyone is getting the same thing. They can all log in together. They can meet people that have access to the same resources. Consistency is key with onboarding. They're understanding that these are the benefits that are offered to you as an employee of this firm. All of that should happen at the same time. 

I've been participating in, as a senior employee at my organization, we do kind of these cohorts for onboarding. If there's four or five people that were hired close around the same time, we get them all together and spend a day and they get exposed to every department head. You know, we come in and we give a presentation for them about what our department does so they can start to see, okay this is the job that I was hired to do, but this is where what I do connects with that other department and this is how this impacts the association broadly. Law firms could do the same thing. Have the practice group leaders come in and talk to the new associates so they'll know that you know I was hired to work in the public utilities practice group, but at some point, I do want to learn a little bit about, you know, real estate and the real estate practice leader was here and I can see how these things connect or how these two practice groups interact and all of that. It's very important. 

Speaker 1 

Great. Mentorship, sponsorship: how do you feel about it? 

Speaker 2 

So, it's important. I think sometimes that people conflate the two of them. You know, mentorship is the process where you talk to someone to try to figure out how to be the best version of your professional self. So they help you figure out how to make sure that you’re billing hours and that you're going after the work that's important and that you need. They help you figure out, you know, client relations and how to speak to certain people and approach different scenarios. 

Sponsorship is the person who is probably not your direct mentor. They know enough about your work, though, because they've watched you and your mentor has been talking about the work that you're doing, but they're the person that sits in the room where the decisions are made. 

And they're the ones that can bring your name to the table and say I know we're considering promoting 3 associates, this person should be in that group that we promote and here's why. So they're the ones that can make things move. Mentors are advisors; sponsors are accelerators. They accelerate your career. 

And again, sometimes people, I think, conflate those because the two are not always the same, and they probably shouldn't be the same. And sometimes some of your mentors should be outside of your organization because they'll be able to give you a clearer view that is not biased or selfish towards your firm, right? 

And sometimes also your sponsor might be outside of your organization because they are friends with your leaders and they've seen you across the courtroom or they've been across the conference room table from you. And they can say to your hiring partners or managing partners or the leadership team, I was dealing with one of your associates and this is what happened and they are great. I would probably take them from you, however, right? 

So those are the kinds of conversations you want to be part of. And another thing with mentorship and sponsorship both, because we know, for instance, if you are a young woman or you are a young person of color that's new in the profession and many of the people that are in the ranks to promote are not young people, are not typically people of color, are typically men. 

That means that the folks at the top, if you will, have to be comfortable with engaging people who are not like them. And the reverse is true as well. There was a time several years ago, there was this discomfort, if you will, and I think part of it sadly came from the Me Too Movement of men being uncomfortable or hesitant about mentoring young women in the profession because they were like, well, I don't want to be accused of something or, well, it's absolutely acceptable for you to go to lunch with someone. 

You can absolutely assign them work and have meetings with them without anything being inappropriate, right? No one is going to accuse you of something wrong because you're giving this young associate, who happens to be a woman, work. You have to monitor yourself and people will say, well, you know, he's a young black guy from Brooklyn, like, and I grew up in Boston. I don't know if we have anything in common. 

Well, you’re both attorneys. You both went to law school. You both practice at the same firm. That's three things in common right there. That's where you start. Start with those commonalities and build from there. And so, kind of getting over that discomfort of mentoring someone different than you is, I think, again, people who are seeking the mentorship also needs to not be as nervous about the differences of their potential mentor, but it's incumbent upon leadership to really take on that role and take the initiative in that space. 

Speaker 1 

I love that, and I would add to that and I would love for you to respond to what I'm adding. For those partners within a firm that are seeking to be sponsors or mentors. Because I do see them as being two different roles. You know, consider someone that's totally, you know, different from what you have been accustomed to experiencing. To your point, someone that went to a different law school, someone that lived in a totally different region, someone of a different ethnic background, cultural experiences. Because there's so much value that can be added between that relationship and growth on both sides of that particular relationship. 

Speaker 2 

Absolutely, and the additional benefit and beauty of that type of outreach and cultivation of a relationship is that if you are committed, as a person who is a leader at that firm, to making sure that the firm thrives, and that when you decide to retire or transition and whatever you know, go to work in academia. 

Whatever it is that you do when you leave the firm as an older attorney or more seasoned attorney, you have the beauty of being able to leave a legacy if you will, and you can help shape the future leaders in your firm by spending the time with them and teaching them things. 

And you can walk away and say, I know that this firm is going to be fine because I helped this very bright person excel and build on what they already had. And so, when I retire everything is going to be fine because I'm helping shape the future leaders here. 

Speaker 1 

Exceptional. Thank you for that. So, here's another question. What strategies does your firm currently have in place to retain diverse talent? 

Speaker 2 

So, I think that the COVID-19 pandemic of 2020 made people really consider retention, and I don't know that they've settled on the best model and method yet. It certainly turned into a lot of remote work and hiring bonuses and larger salaries that may or may not be sustainable. 

But what does retention look like truly is something that firms could need to continue to look at and not just because they're trying to hire more diverse young attorneys or lateral hires. But truly, it's something that every year, every two years, what are we doing? What kind of benefits are we offering? Are we offering hybrid work opportunities? Are people getting challenging work? Are we teaching them how to go after the best and most successful clients that will then make our firm the best and most successful? 

And so that is, I believe, a regular review that firms need to do in order to make sure they're staying on top of it. And retention is not just extra vacation days. That makes people feel nice, but retention is not just extra vacation days. Retention is not just throwing more money at people because sometimes money is not what drives people. It's not what motivates people. 

Retention looks like asking the folks who work there, to your point about surveys, what helps them work best? What makes them feel most valued as an employee and as a person? And you can design your retention policies around that. Now there will always be the outliers. You know, there will be the people that will expect that, like hey, I only want to work 20 hours a week, but I want to continue to get that 60-hour week salary. 

Well, that might not be feasible. But there are other things that they will say, it's very important for me to be able to work remote three days a week. Or it's very important to me, to be able to, you know, work in an environment where I can see my team members on a consistent basis. Any number of those things can be addressed, I think, without turning everything upside down. 

Speaker 1 

Great, what would you say to this question - Is your talent running from or running to? 

Speaker 2 

So there's a couple of ways to approach that question. One, you have to determine if they're running from your firm because of policies or practices that are not helpful or healthy for the team. Or are they running from another firm to your firm to escape something, right? Maybe they worked at a place that was not the healthy place and you happen to be. 

But in order to gauge that you can kind of ask questions in the interview that will help paint the picture of why that person sitting in front of you at that point in reviewing their resume and ask them why they want to work there. If they say that they came to you because of the practice areas that you offer, and it's not something that was available to them at their prior firm, and they know that you all do XY and Z as it relates to training and on boarding, that feels good. 

They're running to you because they know that you are able to help continue to build their career. But if they are vague or they happen to mention that they were not getting enough work at their previous firm or they didn't feel as they were growing, you might wonder if they're just coming to you because they want to get to another job to just get out of that space. You want to be the firm that folks are running to and not running from. 

But you also want to be the problem that when they're running to you, it's going to be a good fit and it's going to be a good relationship on both sides of the table. And that they're still going to do their best work and integrate themselves well into your firm and that it's going to be a great hire for you and not just. They're running from something and now here they are. And they're not maybe necessarily performing or producing in a way that's good for you or them because they were just trying to get out. 

Speaker 1 

Exactly. I love that response, and to that, you know, I would also add that law firms remain cognizant that, you know, new talent when they enter a firm, they're looking to see what was promised. They're looking to see all of those selling points that were emphasized during that recruitment and interviewing process. They will be observing, you know, just as you're observing their productivity, their performance within the first 90 days, they're doing the same thing.  

And so, you know, it's just important that transparency is communicated. You know, if law firms are in the process of, you know, improving certain DEI initiatives that they're very transparent around that, you know, so that that talent is not itching to leave. You know, as soon as they walk through the door and they're thinking, oh we were promised XY and Z, but we're not seeing this or I'm not seeing this and so the goal is for sustainability, for them to stick around. 

Speaker 2 

Transparency is absolutely key. And I think, particularly in our profession, sometimes we are driven by ego. So, we want to always look like we're doing everything right and that we know everything. It's a thing, it just is. I don't think it's exclusive to attorneys, but I know it's a thing that we do, and that is not helpful in DEI work because you have to be able to acknowledge that mistakes will be made or you have to be able to acknowledge that there are growth points that exist that are being addressed. But if you don't address those things, it gets to be problematic. 

Speaker 1 

I wholeheartedly agree with that. This has been so good. Okay, so from your personal perspective, Jocelyn, so we've talked about law firms and different questions that they should consider. This is their check in point to make some adjustments along the way. From your own personal experience, what are some best practices that you've observed that have been essential to identifying diverse talent, recruiting diverse talent? And I could throw some ideas out there, but I would love to hear, you know, your thoughts around, like, how do you identify for those law firms that are thinking we don't know where to go to find top diverse talent. What would you say to that? 

Speaker 2 

So, the first thing is that we have to disabuse ourselves of the notion of we just have to do the things the way we've always done them. That is not going to be effective. You have to try something new. And in this age where, you know, technology has been around for a while but we are certainly more technologically adept as a profession than we have ever been before with video conferencing and all these wonderful things. 

So expense kind of is lower if you use video conferencing platforms to conduct on-campus interviews. And so maybe you're a firm in the middle of Ohio and there is a historically black college or university that has a law school in the DC area. You can have a video conference as the initial interview to meet these folks and talk to them about why they should come and work in the middle of Ohio and what that would mean for their life and their professional pursuits. 

And then if you really like them, then you can fly them out and let them meet other people in the farm and that sort of thing. So utilizing technology is a wonderful way to do that. Where are you sharing your job posts, particularly if you're trying to do lateral hires, so maybe not brand-new graduates, but you're trying to hire somebody 5 or 7 or 10 years into practice. 

Many cities have affinity bar associations. So these are bar associations that are formed around either race and ethnicity or gender and gender identity. Many cities, particularly large cities, have these affinity bar associations and they have online platforms, be it a member newsletter that comes out via e-mail, or they have a Facebook page or something like that, they happily post open positions at law firms. 

And they will talk to folks, particularly if they know your firm where they've worked at your firm prior. They will talk to folks honestly about what it means to work there, why it's a good opportunity or a good fit for them or not. So, forging relationships and not just showing up when you need them to post a job. 

They host scholarship luncheons and all that. Go to those, join together and put on CLEs or social events and that sort of thing. Truly forge relationships with these organizations, because then they will be some of your biggest advocate amongst their peers when it's time for you to hire diverse talent. 

Speaker 1 

Excellent, I love that. And some of that I haven't heard from others in which I’ve posed that question to, so thank you for that. Any additional suggestions that you would like to provide for our listeners regarding retention? 

Speaker 2 

So the best thing you can do, I would say is continually monitor your retention numbers and understand that it's not just a numbers game. You know that's how we see it. That's the evidence of what's happening and how diverse our firm is based upon the number of people that are sitting in the seats but also look at the why those people are continuing to stay because there's a reason. If they are there, why are they still there? Look at that, and really consider that as a thing and constantly evaluate your firm to make sure that you're doing the things that will make people want to stay. 

Speaker 1 

I love that, Jocelyn. When you made that statement, I thought these are great tangible resources. The talent that's been around for years, that continue to stay year after year, and why are they staying? And how can you utilize that response? The reasons for staying to really drive employee engagement across all that are included within the firm. And not just the diverse talent, but across all populations, of course. But I think those that stay around, those are tangible resources and are very valuable to improving employee culture, engagement, and definitely retention. 

Speaker 2 

And again, and it's not just the throwing extra vacation days or throwing money at people. A lot of it is truly the relationship building and seeing people as people and letting them be authentic. And it doesn't necessarily mean that like you’re besties, and you're hanging out every day after work, or that you spend your weekends doing social activities together. 

Not necessarily that, but acknowledging when life events happen. Someone has a baby or someone has a relative that passed away or someone goes through a major illness or someone accomplishes a graduation or something. Acknowledge that, in ways that are helpful and appreciated and appropriate for them. For instance, at my current organization, my grandmother passed away a couple of years ago, and it was quite a time. 

But my family specifically asked please donate to this institution because it was very important to my grandmother and my job did that. They made a donation, right? We've sent some people, their families are really into flowers, so we've sent flowers.  

Or, you know someone had a baby and the leaders got together and gave a little gift card like acknowledging those things that are important to people because they feel like hey, these people know what's important in my life and they are taking time to acknowledge these important events or important people. That's a very small thing that takes maybe 10 or 15 minutes. It's but it has longer effect, right? It just does. 

Speaker 1 

It's the experience, you know. We hold on to experiences and, you know, I've had similar situations that I can speak to as well as it relates to my previous employers and moments in time that they have provided that support that you know, it still stands out years later. You remember how someone makes you feel for sure. 

Speaker 2 

Yep, absolutely. 

Speaker 1 

Alright, so before we end this episode, which I have really enjoyed Jocelyn. 

Speaker 

Me too! 

Speaker 1 

I would love for you to come back next year, like, at some point let's do this again. We can talk about some other cool things as it relates to DEI. But I would love for you to take a moment, if you want to take a moment, to brag and share with our listeners, like what are some cool programs that the Ohio Bar Association currently has in place? Are you envisioning for the next year as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion? 

Speaker 2 

So, my favorite thing to brag about in the work that we do is our equity education series. So, this is a collection of 1-hour webcasts that we started in September 2020 and we are now in season three that started in September 2022. I refer to them as seasons because I watch too many streaming stations and that sort of thing. 

And of course, those in podcast world are familiar with seasons. So we've tackled conversations around how to have difficult conversations about race. There's an attorney that is a member of ours that we know that's part of his work as someone who works in negotiation space, we've talked about the Mansfield rule, which impacts you know, women and people of color in our profession. 

We have talked about generational diversity and then this new season we talk about the history of LGBTQ+ laws, we talk about neurodiversity and hidden disabilities. So these are just one-hour shots. And the thing that I love about it most is one, it's an hour of continuing education credit for attorneys, but we offer it to attorneys who are members of our association or folks who are not members. 

We leave it wide open for, you can be a school teacher, a nurse, if anybody sends you the link and you want to watch it, you can. And we do not charge for this because it is a part of what we consider our service to the broader impact of DEI in both our profession and in community. So that's probably my biggest joy, and that it's been so popular. 

The last one we had was in May and it was how to have civil discourse. And we had two political folks who are very active in our state as a part of the conversation. It was moderated by an attorney here and we had over 1,000 people registered for this thing, which is great because it's online, right? So as long as we can keep the electricity and the Internet going we can have as many people in the room as possible, but each of these sessions have had between 450 and 650 people at every one of them. 

They've had over 3,000 people and they also view them, they're on demand on our website, so even if you don't get to the live one when it happens, usually within a week or so, it's now available on demand. And so we have people that come and they watch them later and I have gotten emails. I'll log into my computer in the morning and someone was up at midnight watching one of the sessions and they're sending feedback or talking about how great it is. 

And so that's probably my biggest joy, because it's an opportunity for us to help educate our colleagues and the community at large and to just do it in a way where it's like, here's the learning. Here's your launchpad. Start here and we can go from there. 

Speaker 1 

I love it. Okay listeners, you may not know this. Some of you may, but Jocelyn also has her own podcast. So, would you like to tell us a little bit about your show? 

Speaker 2 

I do have my own podcast, so because you know, apparently doing DEI work from 9 to 5 is not enough, and that's truly because for me it is a lifestyle. I tell people I live it because I look like it, right? I'm a Black woman in a profession that is typically not as diverse, but also it's just something I'm really passionate about. 

If you ever want to see me practically levitate, or you know, talk non-stop for like 10 minutes straight in that brief, talk to me about inclusion, and so my podcast is called Inscribing Inclusion, partly because I like alliteration, and also that's kind of catchy, right? But my goal is to help people become educated about DEI topics and we know that an inscription is something, you know, that's written on the front of a book or written on stone, even. 

You know, inscribing is very important, and so that's why I chose the title Inscribing Inclusion because I want inclusion to be a part of our culture. I want it to be on everything that we think about and do. And so, I do. I do short episodes to introduce people to topics that they maybe never considered or never considered in the way that it comes up in the podcast. 

And it is my thrill and delight to help people on their educational journey. I've had some episodes where I did one last summer that I called Lessons and Liberation, and it was in June, so we talked about Juneteenth and Pride because those are the things that happened in June. 

I had an episode with some folks where we talked about autism and other neurodiversity, and one of the individuals that was on this show is someone who is on the autism spectrum. And it was one of my favorite interviews because this person just recently graduated from high school and wants to continue to be an advocate and a voice for other young people with autism. I've learned more than I ever thought I would about American Sign Language because of one of my guests. So it is truly my goal to just inscribe inclusion on our culture. 

Speaker 1 

I love it and I listened to several of your episodes and I've walked away with a few nuggets each time and so I highly recommend Jocelyn’s podcast. Where can listeners find your podcast? 

Speaker 2 

Everywhere. So if they listen on Apple or Google or Spotify, pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts, you could find it there. 

Speaker 1 

Awesome. Inscribing Inclusion. 

Speaker 2 

That's it. 

Speaker 1 

I love it. Thank you so much, Jocelyn. I want to invite you back again when you're ready because I just really enjoy chatting with you and you're always welcome on our show. So, thank you again and thank you listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast.