Episode 12 - Leslie Davis

Leslie Davis joins JSL’s Vickie Hubbard for Episode 2 of Season 2 of Not Your Average DEI Podcast! In this episode, Vickie and Leslie touch on the importance of mentorship and the power of allyship in the legal industry, and discuss Leslie's career trajectory and her role as CEO of NAMWOLF.

Leslie D. Davis is a respected leader, experienced advocate, and logical strategist who has been a tireless champion for equity in the legal profession. As the Chief Executive Officer of the National Association of Minority and Women Owned Law Firms, Inc., Leslie is uniquely aligned with NAMWOLF’s mission having been a law firm partner and rainmaker, all while successfully negotiating the challenges that come with being a woman of color in the corporate legal profession. 

For over two decades, Leslie has served as lead counsel for many jury trials, bench trials and arbitrations, obtaining favorable verdicts for her clients in complex and high-stakes cases. In addition to being a skilled lawyer, Leslie is a transformational leadership coach who prides herself on helping clients reach their highest potential. She is a sought-after speaker and has helped many organizations and educational institutions with her presentations on diversity, core energy leadership and social media.  Honored by a number of professional, academic and community organizations, Leslie continues to use her talents and influence to support the needs of both the legal field and the broader community through her training, pro bono and community service contributions.

NAMWOLF is celebrating its 20th Anniversary in 2021, a milestone that coincides with a moment of challenge and disruption in the legal profession. The Covid-19 pandemic has impacted every business and social justice issues are increasingly a catalyst for change. Corporate legal departments are responding by demanding more diversity from their outside counsel and legal services providers. In the recent Survey of the Industry by the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium, 61% of the 200 in-house legal professionals polled said launching a Diversity & Inclusion program was their top priority. But, achieving this goal is often hampered by engrained behaviors and the failure to establish best practices and benchmarks to make diversity goals a reality.

Leading the NAMWOLF team, Leslie is having a substantial impact by educating corporate legal departments about the moral and business imperative for increasing diversity.  NAMWOLF is well positioned to provide guidance and resources for those legal departments seeking to increase opportunities for minority-owned law firms and legal service providers. NAMWOLF’s vision and mission supports 200+ MWBE law firms, operating in 42 states, in every major practice area. Under Leslie’s leadership, NAMWOLF will expand programming and outreach to major U.S. corporations interested in achieving meaningful change in their legal departments.

Leslie is a proud Hawkeye having earned her J.D. from the University of Iowa College of Law and her M.A. and B.A. in Journalism and Mass Communication from The University of Iowa.  She resides in Chicago with her husband, Theodore and two children, Niel and Ellyss, who provide the sparkle in her eyes and the resolve in her step.

Transcript

Thank you for joining us for another episode of JSL's Not Your Average DEI podcast. My name is Vicki Hubbard. I am the Chief Diversity Officer with JuriSolutions Legal, also referred to as JSL. And I am so excited to welcome today's special guest to our show, Mrs. Leslie D. Davis. As we kick off today's episode, I'd like to capture three key nuggets that Leslie Davis will share with us during our discussion.

Number one, Leslie's decision to remain in state and earn her JD from the University of Iowa proved to be a smart decision for her all around financially. Personally and professionally, there are so many talented attorneys out there, and this example should encourage big law to cast their net wider when seeking diverse talent.

Leslie also speaks to the power of mentorship. Starting her legal career at a small firm where she was mentored by the owner of the firm, set her up for success as she made her transition to big law. And lastly, Leslie's compelling example of the power of allyship. I wonder how many associates have left Big Law because they thought draft actually meant draft in which feedback is given and edits can be applied, unknowingly garnering a reputation for poor work product.

We will learn that having supportive and tell it like it is allies like the white female attorney that Leslie worked with at Denton's proved to be extremely beneficial to her time in Big Law. So, without further ado, let's all welcome Leslie Davis to the show. Leslie is the chief executive officer for the National Association of Minority and Women Owned Law Firms, also referred to as NAMWOLF.

NAMWOLF was founded in 2001. It is a non-profit trade association comprised of minority and women owned law firms and other interested parties throughout the United States. NAMWOLF provides excellence in legal services and are proud to be one of the most powerful networks in the industry. And JSL is proud to be a business partner of NAMWOLF.

So, let's learn a little bit about Leslie. Leslie Davis is a respected leader, experienced advocate, and logical strategist who has been a tireless champion for equity in the legal profession. As the chief executive officer of NAMWOLF, Leslie is uniquely aligned with NAMWOLF's mission. Having been a law firm partner and rainmaker, all while successfully negotiating the challenges that come with being a woman of color in the corporate legal profession.

For over two decades, Leslie has served as lead counsel for jury trials, bench trials and arbitrations, obtaining favorable verdicts for her clients in complex and high-stake cases. In addition to being a skilled lawyer, Leslie is a transformational leadership coach who prides herself on helping clients reach their highest potential.

Leslie is recognized as a connector, a mentor, and a trailblazer amongst her peers, colleagues, and friends. Leslie is a proud Hawkeye, having earned her J. D. from the University of Iowa College of Law and her M. A. and B. A. in Journalism and Mass Communications from the University of Iowa. She currently resides in Chicago with her husband and two children.

Lastly, Leslie is my sorority sister. We are both proud members of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority. Incorporated.

Everyone. Let's give Leslie a big, warm welcome. Hello. Hello. Thank you for that introduction. That was fabulous. because you're fabulous. Thank you. Thank you. I didn't want to leave any of the good stuff out there. I'm just so proud of you. So, so, so proud of my son. Thank you. Thank you. I really do appreciate that.

You're welcome. And you've earned it and you deserve it. So lastly, the reason why we're here is because within this particular time frame of our podcast recording, there's so much that I would love to capture. You are just so fascinating to me, your career trajectory prior to joining NAMWOLF and your success in Big Law, so successful in Big Law as not, not just because of you being a woman of color, you were able to rise above any obstacles that you may or may not.

We'll learn about that during this recording that you may or may not have experienced during your, your tenure in big law, but then all of the amazing things that you're doing as the CEO of NAMWA, and I'm so excited about that. Our listeners, I was sharing with Leslie audience that our targeted audience, you.

Come from various walks of life as relates to being in the legal industry and some or not even in the legal industry, but our allies and would love to see the needle move as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion in the law. And so this is a great platform for that Leslie and I'm just delighted to have you here.

But before we get into the bones of the why. I would like to ask a few icebreaker questions because I want our listeners to learn a little bit about Leslie. A little peek. Okay, so I know that you currently reside in Chicago. Are you originally from Chicago? I am. I am originally from Chicago. I was born here, but a little known fact that might be interesting to you is that I was a Navy brat.

So, for many of my formative years, I lived in California. Oh, both in San Diego area and in San Francisco, and then came back right around seventh grade. Wonderful. Wonderful. So, I live in Los Angeles, California. Of course, you know this. So, seventh grade, do you recall enjoying your time here? You know, truthfully, not at all, right?

Because I was not old enough to really to really understand that life is short and that you should be willing to grow wherever you're planted. So, all I really did was pine to be back in Chicago with my grandmother and my other relatives and friends. Understood. Well, Chicago is my kind of town. Okay, so.

Let's get into the topic of today's discussion. You are a successful attorney, over two decades of thriving as an attorney in big law, and now you're the CEO of NAMWOLF. So, I would love for our listeners to learn about that trajectory. So, let's just get into it. So, what inspired you to become an attorney?

Were there attorneys in your family? Was there anyone that may have mentored you at a young age that, that planted that seed that triggered that light bulb for you to say, oh, when I graduated, I want to be an attorney. So, no, there were not lawyers in my family. I am the first lawyer in the family. What I can tell you is that I, you know, I know it would sound better if I could say yes, I knew from the time I was five that I wanted to be a lawyer.

That's not true. The way that I really came to it was I really thought. That I would be a journalist. I love writing, and that was what I initially thought I wanted to do and be. And so, when I was in undergraduate school, that's what I was doing, and I was writing for the Daily Iowan, which is the newspaper for the University of Iowa School.

And I was covering the courts. And so I would sit there and I'd be so enthralled with what was going on. I'd be listening to the arguments that the lawyers were making and the objections they were making. And I was trying to figure out what the next objection would be and why the judge ruled in the way that he or she did and all of those things.

I would almost not have enough for my story because I was so just involved in what was happening and not just there to just listen and write the story. That was when I first said, you know, you might want to consider going to law school, you, you might want to do this as a living. And that really was the first inkling that I had that I wanted to be a lawyer.

That's really the case. And so that from there, I decided to go to law school and I got my master's in journalism mass communications as well. And, and so that was what started me on the path to being a lawyer. Yep, that was it. I really do. I love that. And so your entire higher education took place at the University of Iowa.

And even law school. Yeah, go Hawkeyes. So, what, what was your reasoning for wanting to remain at the University of Iowa to pursue your law degree? I'm sure you had other options as well. So I did have other options. At the time, though, Iowa was ranked really high, too, and I did have some other options that were ranked higher than Iowa, but they were going to be exponentially more costly than Iowa for just a few, you know, spots higher in the rankings.

And it was really my mother who, when I said, oh, you know, I'm not going to go to Iowa. I've been at Iowa. I like Iowa, but I'm going to. I'm going to go to this other school, which will remain nameless, but was ranked a little higher than Iowa. And she said, well, they're not really offering you any kind of financial assistance and.

We can't afford to just pay it all outright. You'll have to take loans. I said, well, that's fine. I'll do that. It'll all work out because this school is ranked a little higher than, than Iowa. And she said, well, I just, I can't understand that. Why would you do that when at Iowa, it's going to be a lot less because they were offering opportunities that were going to not leave me in such debt.

And I was young and I, I, I had, for all intents and purposes, I had bought the hype, the ranking was what mattered to me. And that's what I was going to do. And. I'm an only child and an only grandchild, and so that means that my mother and grandmother were always squarely right in the middle of every decision that I made.

And so I said, well, no, I'm going to still do that and I'm grown. So that's what I'm going to do. And that was the first time my mother pulled what I call the big joker. And she said, well, you are kind of grown, but because I pay this, you're going to go to Iowa or I'm not going to pay it. And I said, I can't believe that you can't do that to me.

She's like, I think I'm stopping you from ruining your life. And so that's what I'm going to do. And so I was angry and I really didn't have another choice because the other schools that I had gotten admitted to were not offering the same financial assistance that Iowa was offering. And the truth of the matter is the only reason why I didn't want to stay at Iowa was because I had been there and that's been my personality for forever.

That, okay, been there, done that, don't want to stay there, and my young mind was willing to pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for a new experience. And luckily my mother, who was much smarter and, and understood a lot better than me what a heavy burden loans can be. She pulled that big joker and I stayed at Iowa and I will be forever grateful.

Because not only did I get a wonderful experience, but a wonderful learning experience, a great opportunity to learn the law under the tutelage of many wonderful professors. I met my husband there while I was in law school, some of my best friends while I was in law school, so it worked out completely.

And so, I'm just grateful that I had a parent that was willing to be a parent. Um, and say, this is the way it's going to be because I, I do know better than you that having loans is not the way to start a life. So I thank her and that is how it happened that I stayed at Iowa. That is a great story and you're a great storyteller.

I was able to see it all unfolding such a such a great story and good advice. Good advice for. Absolutely. Advice that I am trying to impart on my Children right now, and they are having the same kind of reaction that I had, which is, you know, I should be able to run my own life, but I am remembering that helping them run their life could can ultimately be helpful too.

So I'm keeping that in mind as they navigate these same kind of waters. I love that. I have, I have several God children, which you, you know, this, you and I are major God moms. I do several God children. But one of them was aspiring to be a doctor, which she will, she will be a doctor, but she was recently offered admission to the University of Washington and it was one of her top schools.

And she was like, Oh, I'm going, we're like, what? But how are you going to pay for that? Talk her down as well. Yes, it's realities. It is reality. So such, such a good, good testimony. The University of Iowa, you state that you had a great experience. That's where you met your husband, one of your best friends, great professors there.

You learned so much, a great solid foundation for your next phase. Were you mentored by anyone while you were in law school? Sure, I had mentors. There's still one professor there, Adrian Wing, who's still there, who was a mentor to almost every African American student who was in the law school. And then I had other mentors while I was there.

But I really think that the real mentorship that I enjoyed and still enjoy to this day came once I kind of Graduated and squarely gotten to the profession. So for sure, I have had mentors, many mentors along the way and reach out to them for varieties of reasons and to and really to try to understand some things better that I may not.

And so mentorship is very important and I try to be a mentor. For that reason as well. Absolutely mentorship sponsorship, you know, it is key. I would love to hear hear more about that more about your first years in big law and examples of mentorship and sponsorship that really open some doors for you, perhaps.

So I can tell you, and, and, and particularly in the practice, when I first started practicing, I was at a small law firm, and the woman there was African American woman who had her own firm, and she was a good mentor to me. She was the one who really showed me how to try federal cases. And she poured into me and poured into me and really helped me to develop my, my craft and my skill.

And when I went to, and so, by the time I went to large law firm practice, which I stayed there a long time, but I didn't start there by the time I got there. It was very meaningful that I had already had many mentors, had already had some victories, already kind of knew what I was doing, because it was impossible then at that point for anybody to make me believe that I was less than or that I wasn't skilled or that I wasn't knowledgeable.

You will make mistakes and I made a plenty of them, but there's one thing when you make a mistake to be bolstered and to be talked to in a way that helps you to understand what you did wrong or what you should have done differently and then give you another chance to get it right. In large law firm environments, that is not always the case, especially for lawyers that look like me, women of color.

And so it's very important to have those folks who will talk to you candidly and will tell you what the rules are if you don't know them. And I, I, when I went to large law firm life, I had a friend from Iowa who, who I worked with who had been there for some time, a white woman who kind of showed me the ropes and who introduced me to the right people.

And it was there that I then had some sponsors. Who didn't look like me who were white male sponsors and that was the first time I had really had sponsors who didn't look like me, but it was very important to have those sponsors because they could tell me what. Was saying, being said about me when I wasn't in the room and they could be candid with me because they were interested in my development and the best advice I got that really set me on a trajectory that was nonstop after that, my friend, her name is Natalie Spears.

She's, she's still currently at Denton's. She said to me, draft doesn't mean draft draft means it's perfect. It could be filed just as it is, and there are no mistakes. I said, really? She said, right, draft doesn't mean draft. I said, oh, okay. She also said, you know, working together means you do all the work and they get all the credit.

There is no together part of it. That's what that means when it says we're going to work on this together. That means you're going to do all the work and then it's going to be perfect. And then it's going to be filed under their signature. I said, oh, okay. And she says, do you have time? Doesn't mean, do you have time?

It means, yes, you will make time. And the answer always has to be yes, that you have time. I said, Oh, and so for me, that was that was that that that that changed the whole game because I had come from an environment in a smaller firm where work together really meant we were working on this together and draft really meant it's not done and it needed some tweaking.

And do you have time really meant. Do you have time? And so it was a language that I did not know, a language that I had not understood. And I'm not so sure that it wouldn't have taken me a long time to really understand what was going wrong if someone had not just made it very plain. And so I still credit her to this day with the reason why I was able to be so successful because she just made it plain.

It wasn't that I wasn't willing to to make that adjustment. I just didn't know that people did not mean what they said. It meant something different. It was like a different language. And so, yeah, and that kind of. Both mentorship by your peers and sponsorship by those who are maybe not your peer, but who are kind of your supervisors or the superiors who you report to can be important, hugely important in your career and your whole trajectory.

Yeah, and it, uh, yes, it, I agree with that and thank you so much for sharing all of that. So many questions that are, that are coming at me. I wanted to, to, to touch on what you shared regarding your mentorship when you transitioned from the small law firm to big law and how one of your sponsors or, or several of your sponsors were white.

Did they aid you, support you in, in getting key assignments and ensuring that you receive credit? For those assignments. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really could stop there because the way that the environment worked, if the post, the person who had. The work was able to determine who they wanted to work with.

And so the fact that they chose to work with me, then gave me credibility with some other people who might not have just chosen to work with me. For varieties of reasons, including they didn't know me. They hadn't worked with me before, maybe because they were used to working with all the same people that didn't look like me for all kinds of reasons, but it gave me some credibility when those people said, Oh yes, I like working with her.

she does a good job, then it opened doors for me with other people who, who valued their perspective and valued their assessment of my work. So yes, it definitely helped for sure. Wonderful. I love to hear that. Now the demographics at, so you started at a small law firm and then you transitioned to a bigger, bigger law firm.

Um, can you recall your first experience in big law? Would you say that there was a small percentage of people of color or was it diverse? No, it wasn't then and it's not now. And I will stop there. Okay. Because it's just facts. You can, you can look at the numbers and the numbers don't lie. When you, you can see some bigger classes of, of interns or associates that come in for summer.

But when you look right past those numbers to who stays for any length of time, and who becomes partner and equity partner, those numbers are abysmal. They were then and they still are. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you for echoing what we all all know to be true. But I ask because everyone's experience is different.

What I will say. So you asked me about overall what it looks like and that's just factual. Yes. I had a good experience. In large law firms, I had a good experience in terms of the trajectory and being able to go from associate to partner to equity partner, but it was not because it wasn't difficult. And it wasn't because the role was very clear and paved and, and, and, and without.

Curves in terms of disappointments and all of that. I just consider myself to be very blessed to have had a great experience and I have had the opportunity to work with some wonderful lawyers along the way who were both great lawyers who were sponsors who were mentors who were friends who were just great people.

And so my experience. I don't think is the. is the norm. I think it is the exception and I feel completely grateful to have had that experience. And so when I say that, that there's still a lot of room for growth, there is, that's facts. Yes. But along the way, I have I have just been blessed to, to, to not have a story that is littered with only disappointment and only harsh situations and lack of engagement and, and involvement in my career.

It's, it's not been that way. Uh, I, I've had some great experiences and I just, I, I'm thankful and feel blessed for that. It's the, what's the norm and what's general and what you see from the data and the statistics. And then it's what I experienced. Yes, and it does. It's just a light of hope for thriving attorneys and and future attorneys as well, because the majority of women of color, the majority of diverse attorneys, regardless of race.

More so African Americans can can echo that there have have been experiences associated with microaggressions or discrimination that they have experienced at various levels throughout their legal career. I know that you and I spoke a little to this when we met separately. Overall, you had a wonderful experience, but are there any examples of microaggressions that.

You can recall and just to help others who might be experiencing it now, like how did you overcome what would be some tips? Oh, sure. So along the way, there are there are microaggressions, there are macroaggressions, there are things that happen for varieties of reasons. And some, you know, and some you don't know, there's unconscious bias that permeates in the profession.

It's in our country in general, but it's for sure in our profession. Because the legal profession has been a male dominated, a white male dominated profession for many, many years. And so, it goes without, without saying that for, because of that, oftentimes I think some of the things that happen are because people are not really accustomed to the different cultural competencies that come with working with people who are different, who are, Different genders, different colors have different ways in which they show up.

And so I think some of that is a result of that. But I can think of. Lots of microaggression, you know, from anything, from even going to court. I'm a trial lawyer, I'm a trial hound, and loved trying cases. I have shown up in court more than a few times, and the judge has not been paying attention and just looked up and said, let me know when your lawyer gets here.

And I was the lawyer. I've shown up for depositions. And it didn't always have to be somebody who was white. Sometimes it was somebody. Who was black, who was a receptionist, who just wasn't paying attention and they saw a black woman enter and they said, oh, you can set up over there because they thought I was the court reporter because they just hadn't thought about the fact that I might be the lawyer showing up for the deposition and the list goes on and on of, of, of, of little slights that weren't necessarily done overtly or to try to be discriminatory or, or show any kind of prejudice.

But it was the, yeah, the lack of thoughtfulness and the unconscious bias that showed up and wasn't checked or, or the person wasn't being self aware. And those are the things that continue to be perpetuate perpetrated over and over again. And for the person that was happening to. It's like death by 1000 slashes.

It's the weathering effect. And I know there's a professor at Harvard who is doing some research on the weathering effect that it has on the people who have to deal with that. It's almost like that slowed leak in a faucet where right underneath where it's continuously leaking there, it gets brown or gets rusted and it's not the same.

It wears away at it. Well, it's that same way for the folks who have to experience that day in and day out, that there's that weathering that, that happens. And even sometimes it can be a physical effect from high blood pressure to migraine to disease to other things. And sometimes it's just that they leave the profession.

Because they can't take it anymore. And so I think we all have to be thoughtful about the microaggressions that happen. And it's, it's, and again, I will point out, it's not always just black and white or male, female. I, I do a CLE and I, and my kids during the pandemic, they've heard me do the CLE many, many, many, many times.

And I talk about microaggression. And so my daughter, who was 16 at the time, was telling me something about what her and her 16 year old friends were talking about. And I guess I did this kind of eye roll kind of hand thing, like, yeah, whatever. And she said to me, Oh, that's a microaggression. I said, what do you mean?

She said, well, it's pretty clear to me from your body language that you really don't care about what I'm talking about. And you really don't really want to, you know, you really don't think I'm any adding any value. And I said, Oh, I don't, I don't mean for it to come across that way, but here's the truth. I don't really care what 16 year olds are talking about.

And so, it showed up, even for somebody who I love completely. And so my point is, even for those people who you love completely, who you, who you take care of, who you value, who you would lay down your life for. Those unconscious biases can slip in in varieties of ways, and it is hurtful, and it is obvious, and it does have an effect on the other person.

And so I don't want to make it always seem as though it's some big thing that shows up and it only shows up in the most discriminatory way. No. It can show up in any way. And what I was really thinking, which was, I really don't care what 16 years are talking about. It came through and I should not feel that way.

Cause that's my bias just because I am way past 16. I won't tell you how far past it doesn't mean that I can't learn something from someone who's 16. It doesn't mean she can't add value because she's 16. There are tons of things that she knows that I do not know. But my unconscious bias stops me from thinking that she's going to add value and that's the way it shows up in the workplace.

It shows up with in, in, in law firms. It shows up in, in, in relationships. It shows up in varieties of ways in business relationships and personal relationships. And I think we have to call it what it is. We have to name it. We have to be more thoughtful about what we're doing and how we're doing it so that we are not causing those kinds of unconscious risks and those and stopping the opportunity to learn and grow from those who we are assuming don't have any value at.

Absolutely. Very well said. Very well said. So, to our listeners who might be in a current role in which they come face to face with microaggressions quite frequently, what advice do you have for them? Yeah, and I know you spoke to attrition individuals, some choose to leave the firm, some choose to leave the industry altogether.

What, and it sounds like you had more good than bad experiences, right? Absolutely. But to those experiences that may not have been as favorable for you as it relates to microaggressions, maybe it was related to race. I don't know, you would have to speak to that, but what tips would you have suggestions what you have for those attorneys that are experiencing it experiencing this more frequently than you, you did.

So that's hard for me to say, right? Because. I don't want anybody to lose their job be, be, be, because of me, the way that I handle it might not work for everybody. Right? So I can just tell you that for me, the only way that I could handle it is to confront it head on when it's happening. See, because for me.

If I let it go, then it festers within me and then I am feeling some kind of way I am feeling frustrated. I am wondering why this is happening. I am questioning myself. I am wondering, is there something I should have said differently or there's something that I did wrong. And so for me, early on in my career, I just decided there were some.

Lines to be drawn and that I was going to draw them for my own sanity. And that for me, if anybody crossed those lines, I was just going to ask the questions. It was just going to have to be dealt with right on the spot. Not everybody does it that way. I think some people would say that they maybe that's not the best way to deal with it.

But for me, it has worked. Because I do think that when you, when you just say what it is and you ask the question, you bring it to the forefront. Then only one or two things can happen. The person can just stop and realize that, you know, you're not going to buy the swampland they're selling and they can either change or they can move on.

But either way you're done with it. And for me, that was better. So when there were times when I thought that something was happening or somebody was treating me in a way that was disrespectful, I just, I just called it what it was like as a younger lawyer. There would be times where sometimes people would just start yelling and screaming and carrying on.

And I would just say, I'll come back when you're done. Because I don't, I really don't let anybody talk to me like that. And so just let me know when, when you are not as upset and we can talk. And sometimes it made the person more upset and sometimes they calmed down and then they called me back and said, okay, I'm ready now.

But for me, that was the only way, because it's not my personality that somebody could be yelling and screaming and cursing. And I just not say anything. So since I did not want to say the wrong thing, I had to remove myself. And so there were just things you have to know about yourself and what you can and cannot handle.

And then that informs the way in which. You show up. And so there have been many instances, I won't say many instances like that, but there have been some instances where I've had to say to myself, Hmm, am I going to call this what it is? And so, for example, when you're talking about credit, credit for work that has been brought in, I can remember an example of having.

Been bringing in some work and been waiting to get this work in and it came and it was a big piece of work, but it wasn't it wasn't litigation work. It wasn't work that I did. It was work. That was transactional. So also some other people were doing the work, but that had not mattered. For anybody else in the firm, particularly white males, if they had brought it in, they had gotten the credit.

And so now, when it was my turn to say, hey, I brought this work in. I'm not doing it, but other people are, are, are definitely doing the work and get and and bringing money into the firm because of me, I should be getting the credit. And I was told, Oh, no, no, that was an introduction that you won't be getting the credit.

Well, I couldn't let that stand. So at that moment, I had to say, I can't accept that. That, that is absolutely not what is being, what is happening for other people. And just call that what it is. You know, you are, you're basically stealing it from me. You're taking it from me. And I can't accept that. And so there are times where that works and times where that doesn't work.

But, uh, but for me, that's the only way to deal with it. Cause I can't walk away knowing that I have been, you know, hugely wronged and been taken advantage of and just kind of hope that it goes better than the next time. That's just not how I deal with it. I, that's not to say that some people haven't gotten really far by dealing with it a different way, but for me.

That has been the only way for me to deal with it and keep my sanity, keep, you know, be able to look myself in the mirror and be able to just decide what it is I'm going to do, because I then have better answers. When I know that you know that we both know what this is. If you are not going to do something different than now I know what I need to do.

Otherwise, I don't know what to do and I don't know how to act because I can't be sure that we are that this is what I really think it is. So that's how I've dealt with it again. My disclaimer is don't go get fired talking about Leslie told me that you should just always call the people on the carpet.

I will tell you that I have gotten more comfortable doing that. The more. Skilled and longer. I've been in the profession and have some real expertise and bona fides to rely on so that if things don't work out, I can move on. I can't say that from day 1, I wasn't shaking in my boots every time I had to kind of do that.

But I found over a course of time that that's the best way for me to deal with those kind of things. Thank you. Thank you for that. And I will, I will add to that. I mean, that's, that's a suggestion, right? That's how you address your experiences. Um, but I will say that when you have a certain level of comfort and you have to pick your battles, this is situational, right?

Absolutely. You, you address the situation head on in public. Because you're not only teaching that person, but those that are that are watching the onlookers as well. It's an education session for everyone. Sometimes you pull the person to the side and sometimes you just let it, you let it slide. You have to pick and choose, but I will say that having the courage to speak up for yourself when, when microaggressions take place, it can assist in combating imposter syndrome as well.

It can. It can. I agree. All right, for those young women of color attorneys, I'm speaking to them right now because you are a fabulous African American dynamic attorney. What advice would you like to give to them? Who are now in big law to really get the most optimal experience while there, if, if, if you want to provide recommendations to have the kind of experience overall that you had, what advice would you like to provide?

My advice would be, get as much experience as you can, be as open to trying new things, working with varieties of people, and doing the best that you can do, and then go to a NAMWOLF. Alright! I love that was it! That was next. So great said way to ma'am. So you are the chief executive officer with man book.

This is your, you are, you have already surpassed your second year now. It's two and a half. Yeah. Entering your third year. How has that been for you? How has the experience been? It has been wonderful. I started during the pandemic, which was interesting, right? It was just a weird time in the country. But when I started, everybody was welcoming and, and I was able to hit the ground running.

And so now it's even better and it's more exciting because things have opened up and I'm able to meet more people and to travel, to have more conversations about NAMWOLF and to really be able to engage in meaningful ways. And so we're able to have our conferences in person. And so it was good when I started, but it's even better now that we are back in person and I'm able to really get out there and meet people and really talk about NAMWOLF in meaningful ways and do it in person as well.

Love it. Love it. So this is an opportunity for you to speak to those attorneys, tenured attorneys, young, diverse attorneys, women, minority attorneys. Why should they consider joining NAMWOLF? So, NAMWOLF is just a wonderful organization that really prides itself on the client service it provides because the firms have deep expertise.

We're 207 law firms, over 43 states, and there is a, a criteria, a pretty rigorous criteria that has to be met in order for a firm to be a part of NAMWOLF. And so once that criteria is met and the firm wants to become a part of NAMWOLF or is a part of NAMWOLF, it's just a great opportunity to both have the whole NAMWOLF team working to try to ensure that our corporate partners and our business partners are utilizing NAMWOLF members and minority and women owned law firms.

And it's also a great cross referencing, a cross selling avenue because. Many of our firms, they have expertise in whatever the area is. They are more than willing to introduce other NAMWOLF firms to their clients who might have a different need. And so I think that's what makes NAMWOLF so, so great. It's not the same level of competition that you have from big firm to big firm, because the lawyers really squarely.

Are great and maybe better than anybody else in what they do, but they don't stretch to do things that are not in their bandwidth. That's not what they do. They're just happy to introduce you to another firm who does that particular thing because they recognize. That oftentimes women and minorities don't get a second chance, and they, they respect the brand of NAMWOLF enough to know that they need to hit it out of the park, and they want to hit it out of the park, and they do.

And so for that reason, if it's not something that they are, you have a deep expertise in, they just. We'll introduce you to another NAMWOLF firm, and so you get the benefit of having a whole network of firms. And if you are firm, you have the benefit of having a network of other firms who, once they know what you do and you have a relationship with them, they're willing to introduce you to a variety of other clients.

And so it's just a wonderful atmosphere. It's a wonderful family in the sense that everybody's really looking out for everybody else. And that's unique, I think, and that is something that we enjoy and something that we, we definitely strive to keep that, that, that we want to preserve because I think that's part of the secret sauce of enamel.

I love it. And as I mentioned earlier, everyone. JURISolutions Legal is a business partner with now and we love the experience. We love it. We were in San Diego earlier this year, looking forward to the upcoming conference, looking forward to some, some crab cakes and yes, we will be in Baltimore, September 10th through the 13th. And I am glad. 

Thank you all again for your sponsorship and for your continued really willingness to, to, to, to really uplift NAMWOLF and to be thoughtful about the ways in which you engage, including inviting me onto this podcast. And so looking forward to seeing you and many others in Baltimore soon in a little over a month.

I know, and this is going to be here very quickly. I've already purchased my airline ticket. So it's good. So if you were, this is an opportunity to speak to corporations, because there is there is a great opportunity for. Corporation representation at your conferences as well that could potentially open door for more outside council opportunities for NAMWOLF firms.

Who would you recommend if you were to say you're all invited, but we really need for you to come to our conferences, which departments who are the key stakeholders that you would love to have attend NAMWOLF conferences to meet with the firms? Well, really, whoever it is in the organization that makes the decisions on hiring firms.

So, rather, it is the individual attorneys who had the ability to hire firms on their own. If it's the legal ops person who is the gatekeeper for all of the firms who come through the organization, whether it's the, the general counsel, or the deputy general counsel, or. Whoever it is who really needs to understand more about NAMWOLF or knows about NAMWOLF and can make the decisions on who gets engagements, who gets hired, what that looks like.

Those are the folks I think that will benefit the most from being at the NAMWOLF conference because NAMWOLF Um, conferences, I think that what makes it special is that everybody comes almost like a big puzzle and everybody comes understanding what pieces they need to feel and they are looking specifically for that.

And so the firms understand that as well, and so they are. Networking and talking to people about what they do, and so you can leave that conference understanding very quickly. Oh, there are these number of firms or these are the firms or this is the firm that can absolutely help us with what we need. I should also say, too, that it's great networking for filling in house roles, because I have had some in house lawyers come back to me and say, Guess what?

I met a lawyer who was at a different company and they were looking to relocate or looking to leave or looking for a new opportunity and I hired them. And so, while I don't think that poaching is, is the biggest draw for the conference, I do think that the, the real intentional networking to find whatever piece it is that you need or pieces you need.

Is what makes the name of conference so unique and as it relates to the business partners. I think that too makes it unique because it gives the opportunity for you to interact and to be able to talk to folks just like JSL who. Care about diversity who are doing great things who the corporations or the law firms may not know.

And so you're able to then also talk to business partners who are doing great things and maybe a value add for the corporation or for the law firm. So, that I think is what's so great about the conference. Excellent, excellent. So, NAMWF consists of diverse minority and women owned law firms, diverse law firms.

And so, many attorneys, especially when they're making a transition from law school to selecting their first law firm or their first job, they're targeting the big law firms, right? What would you say are the advantages of diverse or minority or women attorneys targeting diverse firms? Thank you firms. So, hands down, I think the opportunity to get skills and be involved with clients and be staffed on matters in very meaningful ways happens quicker when you are at a diverse firm, a minority owned firm, a smaller law firm, because. Oftentimes, they don't have the ability to just hire people to kind of have them sit around and be doing research or be doing discovery or be to be doing document exploration.

They don't have that. They don't have those kind of budgets. So everybody who is there has to be. It has to be really adding value in real meaningful, substantive ways. It doesn't mean that that doesn't happen at larger firms, it does. And people get great training there, but it oftentimes takes more time because there are more people.

And so if there is a need, you have lots of people who can fill that need. And so if you just, it's just, it's just factual. If you have 40 associates, And you have 25 matters that are really substantive and media is going to provide real opportunity. Then you've got to spread that out amongst all of those people.

That's just math. If you, on the other hand, have a firm of 10 people and you have, you know, 10 matters. That are equally as important and have opportunity there and you're one of three associates, then you are going to be able to get that experience a lot quicker and you will get it many more times over because it's just less people.

It's math. It's not rocket science is math. And so that's not to say that there's not great experiences in large law firms and medium sized firms and there's experience to be had all over. But if you're looking to get experience fast, some substantive experience very quickly, there's no better way to do that than a firm that values your diversity.

Sees it as a strength and a plus and a value add and is invested in your success because they have to be quite frankly, because they just don't have the opportunity to just cast you to the side and get the next person. They have to train you. They have to. Have you understand what mistakes you're making and they need you to not make them again.

And you have to very quickly become skilled. When I was in a small firm, I remember the partner saying to me, look, if I am ever going to go on vacation, you got to get this right. And so when I wasn't doing something right, she would say, no, this is how it needs to be done. It's like this, this and this. And her, her motivation was if she was ever going to go on vacation, I was going to have to be able to do this, this, and this while she was gone.

And so. It benefited me because she couldn't just say, well, I'll just get somebody else to work with because you're a slow learner or you didn't get it right the first time or whatever. She had to invest in me and she did and I'm grateful. And so that's the kind of thing that happens when you're talking about environments where again, your diversity is, is not novel, it's expected, and it's what they're used to.

And. Your value is understood from the day you walk in the door. And now the goal is to get you up to speed so that you can be a value add to the client. And so your boss can finally go on vacation one day. Yes, absolutely. Okay. So we are. We are approaching the end of, I will say, episode one of a series.

I've already positioned, pitched to Leslie, we should have a series to talk, talk more. There's so much more to chat about. You are the right person for the CEO position of Mailbox. Oh, thank you. That is sweet. You are the right person for the job. You know, I'm curious because I didn't ask this question earlier.

After so many years of, of, of thriving and big law. What prompted you to make that transition to now work as CEO? So I think I started by telling you that that is kind of who I am. You know, after having done so many different things within the, the legal field, you know, I did say to myself, when I made my last transition, I said, if this is not Nirvana, if this is not totally different than what I have experienced before, then I'm done.

I'm done with this and it's time for me to move on. To do something different that is going to be equally as fulfilling and is going to allow me to utilize my strengths, my network and, and my time and talents in a way that's going to be both fulfilling to me, and that's going to be helpful to the profession.

And so that's where NAMWOLF came in. And so when people told me that this was an opportunity that the former CEO was going to be retiring. They thought I would be a good person for the role. I started to give it some real thought and to really look into it. I knew about NAMWOLF. There had been NAMWOLF lawyers eating my lunch for a while.

There had been times when I had gone after business and it had been given to a NAMWOLF firm. So I knew that they had great lawyers, that they had a great organization that I admired. I just wasn't in it. Because I was in a large law firm. And so when the opportunity came around, I threw my hat in the ring because I thought this could really be something that would be great.

And I'm glad I did. And I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. I wish you major success. A long tenure with NAMWOLF and who knows what's next beyond, but I wish you the best. I thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. This has been a treat for me and, and I look forward to another episode with you.

I hope that I am able to figure out a way to maneuver into your schedule. Oh yes, yes, yes. Of course. I'd be happy to come back. Wonderful. Wonderful. Because my vision is a series and so we'll have to figure out how to make that happen. But thank you. I appreciate you. Any parting thoughts? For our listeners.

I guess my last parting thought would just be be the change that you want to see that there's no better time than the present to actually do something. We see that there's a climate in our country where diversity is not at the forefront in terms of folks who want to see it continue move it forward see it thrive.

And so those of us who understand the value of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and want to see that be the way in which our country moves, the way in which our profession moves, the way in which we continue to, to move and thrive, then we have to be the ones who are willing to do something. And so I just encourage everybody who's listening to this podcast and who is being thoughtful about.

What they are doing, what they're currently doing, what their next moves may be, how they can make an impact, know that you can, that I hope that you will, and I hope that you believe that you should. And so with that, I just thank you again for having me and I appreciate this time. I appreciate anybody who's willing to listen to me, a long winded lawyer who can talk on and on about the things that I'm passionate about.

So thank you for having me. And thank you for your time. There are so many key takeaways from today's episode. I sincerely hope that you were able to capture a few relatable nuggets for yourself. Thank you again, Leslie Davis, and thank you listeners for tuning in to another episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast.