Episode 16 - Trecia Pessoa & Three Aspiring Attorneys

Trecia Pessoa, Vice President & Senior Managing Counsel with Mastercard, joins JSL's Vickie Hubbard and 3 aspiring female attorneys (Hannah Fox, Jordan McClenney, and Emma Bonfiglio) for Episode 6 of Season 2 of Not Your Average DEI Podcast! Trecia, Vickie, Hannah, Jordan, and Emma discuss Trecia's journey to becoming an attorney, her career now, and the lessons that she's learned along the way.

Trecia Pessoa is Vice President & Senior Managing Counsel, Digital Solutions & ESG Products at Mastercard. She oversees the team responsible for global legal strategy and advice for Mastercard’s consumer products businesses, the development of digital platforms to enable these solutions, and the commercialization of Mastercard's ESG strategy, including its commitment to financial inclusion and sustainability. In previous roles, Trecia was lead attorney, Americas, for Mastercard Gateway, a global omni-channel digital technology for processing payment transactions, and Senior Counsel, North America, supporting engagement with Mastercard’s merchants and non-bank customers. Trecia is passionate about mentoring and has led teams of volunteer mentors for high school girls. She is a board member of Bigs & Littles NYC, a non-profit organization that provides mentoring and support services to children in New York City. Trecia received her J.D. from George Washington University Law School and B.A. from Tufts University. A proud Jumbo, Trecia is a member of the Tufts President’s Council, the national board of the Tufts Lawyers Association (TLA), and co-chair of TLA’s NY chapter.

Hannah Fox is 20 years old and a sophomore at Chapman University. She is pursuing a major in Political Science and a minor in Business Administration. After her undergraduate studies, she aspires to go to law school and hopes to specialize in corporate law. She's eager to continue learning more about practicing law and looks forward to having a discussion with an expert in the field.

Jordan McClenney is 19 years old. She is a first-year college student majoring in English at Pasadena City College (PCC). After two years at PCC, Jordan plans to transfer to UCLA to continue pursuing her bachelor's degree in English. After graduation, she aspires to attend law school. Practicing law has always been her dream because she loves working with people and the community, as well as fighting for what's right.

Emma Bonfiglio is 14 years old. At the age of 11, Emma was talking with her parents and older brother who was starting to look at colleges at the time. It got Emma thinking about what she wanted for her future. She started thinking about a job that she would like to do that would be rewarding, enjoyable, but also provide her with a sustainable lifestyle. Her Dad suggested that maybe becoming a lawyer would be a good route for her to take and her brother agreed as he says she is good at arguing! In one of her middle school classes, she learned about the judicial system, laws, and amendments and was hooked. She is excited to talk more with others who have experienced law school firsthand and who are currently lawyers to find out more about this journey that she is about to embark on!

Transcript

Vickie: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining me for another episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast. My name is Vicki Hubbard, Chief Diversity Officer with Jurisolutions Legal, also referred to as JSL. I am super excited about today's episode as we will be chatting with three aspiring attorneys and a fabulous tenured attorney who has raised her hand to serve as a mentor as the aspiring attorneys prepare for a future in law career.

Get ready to be inspired. Today, we are bringing together a dynamic group of women who share an undeniable passion for law. One of these extraordinary women, carefully selected by JSL for her impressive legal career and dedication to mentoring, will have the opportunity to connect with three young women who foresee a future in law.

This is more than just an episode. It is a platform for mentorship to take flight. Expect a wealth of wisdom, [00:01:00] practical advice, and the spark of mentor mentee relationships. Whether you're dreaming of a legal career or simply interested in hearing a unique perspective based on our mentor's experience navigating through undergrad, law school, and ultimately her career as a female practicing attorney, tune in for an unforgettable conversation.

Joining us today is Trecia Pessoa, Vice President and Senior Managing Counsel at MasterCard, along with Emma Bonfiglio, age 14, Jordan McClinney, age 19, and Hannah Fox, age 20, our aspiring attorneys. During today's Fireside Chat, our aspiring attorneys will have the exciting opportunity to ask Trecia questions that will position them for success as future lawyers.

But before we delve into our chat, a little bit about our special guests. Emma Bonfiglio. At the age of 11, Emma began [00:02:00] considering her future career. Her dad suggested that maybe becoming a lawyer would be a good route for her to take, and her brother agreed, confirming that she is good at arguing. In one of her middle school classes, Emma learned about the judicial system, laws, and amendments, and she was hooked.

Soon after that, she attended a college open house with her brother. She spoke with professors and college staff and decided then that she wanted to become an attorney. Jordan McClinney Jordan is a first-year college student majoring in English at Pasadena City College, aka PCC. After two years at PCC, Jordan plans to transfer to UCLA to continue pursuing her undergraduate studies majoring in English.

After graduation, Jordan aspires to attend law school. Law has always been a dream of hers because she enjoys working with people and the community, as well as fighting for what is right. Hannah Fox. Hannah is a sophomore at Chapman [00:03:00] University. She is pursuing a major in political science and a minor in business administration.

After her undergraduate studies, Hannah aspires to go to law school and plans to specialize in corporate law. She is eager to continue learning more about the legal profession. And last but certainly not least, our attorney mentor, Trecia Pessoa. Trecia is the vice president and senior managing counsel of digital solutions and ESG products at MasterCard.

She oversees the team responsible for global legal strategy and advice. For MasterCard's consumer products businesses, the development of digital platforms to enable these solutions, and the commercialization of MasterCard's ESG strategy, including its commitment to financial inclusion and sustainability.

Trecia is passionate about mentoring and has led teams of volunteer mentors for high school girls. She is a board member of Bigs and Littles [00:04:00] NYC, a non profit organization that provides mentoring and support services to children in New York City. Trecia received her J. D. from George Washington University Law School and B.

A. from Tufts University. A proud Jumbo! Hello, ladies! It's such a wonderful pleasure to have you all on today's podcast episode. I am so excited. I've been looking forward to this recording for weeks, and I just think this is such a unique opportunity because as I shared audience listeners, we have a very tenured attorney Trecia who has raised her hand and volunteered to mentor these three aspiring attorneys and it's just such a great opportunity for them to utilize this platform to pick her brain.

She's super experienced. She can give them share best practices with them and provide a lot of guidance that can really help [00:05:00] set them up for success as they continue to navigate through their high school studies, their undergraduate studies, and moving forward towards preparation for the LSAT and then ultimately law school.

So, I'm very excited about this opportunity. What I typically like to do everyone is to allow for our listeners to get to know you a little bit. And so, I have prepared some icebreaker questions. All right. First question. Let's start with Hannah. Hannah, in your spare time, what activities do you enjoy? 

Hannah: I spend a lot of time inside studying and going to my classes and everything, so when I have free time, I like to be outside in one way or another, so I spend In California, I spend a lot of time at the beach, and I also love to go on hikes.

Just anything outside, really. 

Vickie: That's me. So, I live in [00:06:00] California as well, and I am a sunshine girl. I agree with you, Hannah. I love being outside. I'm such an outside type of person, and I love being near water, and I love to hike. So, we have that in common. How about you, Jordan? 

Jordan: I also love to do things outside.

I love working out. I love going on runs. I also spend the majority of my time reading books as well as going to the beach. And I also love to play the acoustic and electric guitar. 

Emma: Very interesting. How about you, Emma? I enjoy doing a lot of things. I love hanging out with friends. I read a lot. I love to make crafts of all sorts, like sewing, crocheting, and using hot glue guns and all that stuff.

I play hockey and lacrosse, and I love learning about history. 

Vickie: So, Trecia, what did you enjoy doing in your spare time? 

Trecia: Because my day job requires me to read a lot of material. I will [00:07:00] read romance novels. I will read like the inquire, those types of magazines, anything that is really, you don't have to think about it too much.

So, I enjoyed reading that. And then I also, I have two daughters, both of whom play soccer pretty seriously. And. A lot of my time I spend running around behind their schedules and getting them where they need to be. So, I love to watch them play. So that's what I do for fun. 

Vickie: I love it. Okay, so let's dig into why we're here.

Our, our listeners would like to know, because I know they're wondering why an attorney? 

Hannah: For me personally, school and academics have just been where I've thrived my whole life. And I love learning, and I love being challenged and just having new things to discover every day. And I think that the law would give me that.

I think that I would always be challenged and there always like some problem to solve. I just love solving problems. [00:08:00] 

Vickie: And how about you, Jordan? 

Jordan: For me, I've always favored helping people throughout my life. I love debating. I love I'm such an outwardly spoken person. I love talking to people, getting to know people working to make a difference and actually feel like I'm making a change in someone's life.

So being a lawyer has always been something that I've been interested in since I was little, because I also do believe knowledge is power, especially in the core of law. I believe that I will learn so much, especially in law school, undergrad, that would help me in the future. 

Vickie: And you, Emma?

Emma: Over the years in my life, I've been thinking about what I wanted to be in the future, and I love standing up for people's rights and proving that, like, in a case that, you know, they are the right one there.

And I think that it's perfect for me. 

Vickie: So, this is an opportunity for you all [00:09:00] to ask Trecia a lot of questions that's really going to help you prepare as you navigate through your undergraduate studies. But before we delve into that, Trecia, why should they listen to you? I don't know that they 

Trecia: should. I do believe that these young ladies should get as much input and insight as they can from as many people as possible, because like Jordan said, knowledge is power, and you can't have knowledge without information.

So, you have to, Speak to people who've been there, had the journey, made the journey that you're planning to embark upon to figure out maybe they have some tips and, and guidelines and best practices and things to avoid that could help make your journey a little bit easier because law school is not easy.

Vickie: Wonderful, wonderful. So, with all of that being said, can you help the listeners as well as Emma and Jordan and Hannah [00:10:00] understand what your current life as an attorney looks like before we rewind the tape and go back to when you decided to become an attorney, and you prepared for the LSAT and all of that good stuff.

Let's talk about where you are right now. And I read a little bit of you, of your bio, but from your words, not mine, would you like to share a little bit about your current role or your experience in big law before you made your transition to corporate law? 

Trecia: Sure. Sure. I'll tell you a little bit about my current role and then go back to the transition.

So, my current role is product counsel for MasterCard's digital, digital solutions and ESG products. Vicki read a little bit about that in the bio, but essentially what I do is advise our business teams on strategy to create. And refine products that we then sell to MasterCard's customers. So, my role is advisory primarily in nature.

And then should we be successful in [00:11:00] navigating the plan to bring a new or refined product to market? Then I help them with it. Preparing and negotiating the contracts with our customers. No two days are the same every day. Which emergency do you tackle first? Which hole do you plug your finger in to stop the leaking or the bleeding?

But it is really, for me, I find it exciting. Um, because if you're like me, you get bored easily, or if something is no longer challenging, then you start looking for that next challenge. But the company happens to be. Really on an arc of innovation. So, they're doing quite a lot and changing every day. So, we then have to change and modify the way we practice to support that innovation and the creativity that's coming out of the new directions that the company's planning to take.

Vicki mentioned, I spent several years in big law prior to making the switch in house. And. Honestly, I'm not quite sure why I went to law school, to be honest with you. I didn't dream of being an attorney like the other [00:12:00] three, uh, panelists. I literally, and I said, I say this a lot, so you can quote me. I went to law school because all the other smart people that I was surrounded by were going to law school.

I'm a first-generation college student, first generation, a graduate student. So, I really didn't have a whole lot of. guidance in terms of career paths and what to do and where to go after college. I was just lucky to be in college, to be honest with you. So, I went to law school, hoping that it would provide me with a career, you know, that would allow me to support myself, um, and really have, you know, a good quality of life.

Um, So Big Law was the avenue that I chose. There are other avenues that you can take, obviously. Um, but Big Law, it is, it is everything it's reputed to be. Um, it is exciting work. There are some incredible people. Um, it is grueling at times, challenging at times, but I will say. Through my big law experiences where I developed my fundamental legal skills and the things that make me [00:13:00] exceptional now, right?

And I can say that because with the benefit of hindsight, I truly believe that I earned, or I learned the skills to be really good at my job. Um, and then made the transition in house because at the time, at where I, the point where I was in my life, I had just gotten married. I had my first daughter and big law wasn't conducive to being a young mom and a new mom.

It was time I thought to move on to something that would allow me the ability to be good at both my career and my life. And I thought I would have a better chance of being successful by moving to another environment, and I was fortunate to find that in house. 

Vickie: Okay, great. Any questions regarding what Trecia just shared?

Jordan: Yeah, I actually have a question I wanted to ask. As an attorney now, how do your hours differ from when you first graduated law school? 

Trecia: Oh goodness. When you first graduate law school, your job is to just work really hard and do a good [00:14:00] job, right? So, you do whatever it takes to make that happen. So, it's sometimes it's working 10 or 12 hours a day.

Sometimes it's working on the weekends. Sometimes it's working when you should be sleeping a lot. So that's what the first few years of your career. At least what my first few years of my career were like, it's a couple of decades later, so I have the benefit of experience. I can work more quickly, more effectively, more efficiently now.

Um, and being in the in-house environment, um, there is a better balance. And by that, I don't mean that we don't work hard, or we don't work long, but there is more predictability in terms of when things are going to get crazy. So, you can plan your life around maybe at the end of March, it's going to be busy season, so you can plan.

Make sure that you don't have any conflicts in your personal life too, that are going to affect your ability to, to do what you need to do at work. I think for this profession in particular, to be really good at your job, sometimes you do have to make a sacrifice, and you have to choose. I will choose my job over going [00:15:00] for a run sometimes, or maybe I'll run at 5 a.

m. instead of when I would normally run or something like that. You make adjustments in your life to make it work, but you do tend to work a little bit harder at the beginning. 

Jordan: Yeah, that's really interesting. Is there anything that necessarily kept you grounded or was it just the mindset of there was things that you had to get done in order to prosper later in your career?

Trecia: It was the latter, right? I was like, I need this job, right? I have these bills to pay, but I also knew that if I put in the work early on, the key, you want to become an expert, right? You want to become reliable. You want to become dependable. You want to be known for the quality of the work that you deliver.

And the only way to do that is really to put in time and effort. And then once you have established yourself and your reputation and your brand, and you'll hear that term a lot, right? You want to be seen as the go-to-person, the one that they can count on to get it done and to get it done. Right.

Once you've established that reputation and that brand, then you do have more flexibility in terms of balance [00:16:00] and quality of life. 

Jordan: That's great to hear. Thank you. 

Hannah: Um, so I know you said that. You just fell into the big law path, but do you have any advice for aspiring attorneys who are trying to explore what kind of area of law they might be interested in?

Trecia: Yeah, I do. I think, one, be open to all opportunities. I would say Explore topics that interest you. Talk to people who are, you know, practicing in areas where you think you'd be interested in practicing and take classes, right? You're you'll be in law school. So, explore topics like what you're doing in college, take like electives, right?

And explore and learn new things so that you can either add things to your list or check them off and say, no, those things are not for me. Right? You also, you know, Like, learn, like, acknowledge your strengths and your weaknesses, right? And, and where your skill sets lie, right? And they, those things could be diametrically opposed, right?

And so, it's important to pay attention, [00:17:00] right? If you think you want to be a corporate lawyer and you're in corporations and you're falling asleep every day and you can't get through the text, corporations probably aren’t going to be your thing, right? So, pay attention to what your, your mind and your response from an intellectual perspective are telling you.

Emma: Awesome. Thank you so much. That's awesome. 

Trecia: Welcome. 

Emma: All right. How did you decide to get into this specific type of law that you're in? 

Trecia: That was a decision, I think that decision was made for me. Because like I said, I dreaded the thought of living, the thought of standing in front of a room and speaking and getting the judge's permission to talk terrified me.

I still don't enjoy public speaking. I certainly did not enjoy it way back then. That is one thing I will say, well, I will get to the advice later, but. Definitely develop that skill of public speaking and being comfortable in front of a room, but back to how I knew I wanted to be a transactional attorney is that I knew for sure, without a doubt, I did not want to litigate.

I, we had a couple of required assignments in law school during our [00:18:00] first year that required us to prepare what we call a memorandum, which is basically a summary of a case and the facts, and then to argue them in front of a panel of judges. And I've never been more miserable in my life. I still remember if I really think about it, I will have real flashbacks, like post-traumatic stress.

But I knew based on the level of stress that I was feeling during those assignments, that was not a path that was going to. Highlight and showcase my skills and talents. And so, it was very easy for me to gravitate towards transactional law because in my classes, like contracts and property and corporations, I found myself really interested and perked up and paying attention.

And then when I had to actually negotiate agreements or draft agreements, I, that's where I found my groove. I was like, I'm good at this and I actually like it. So that's how I knew. 

Vickie: Love that. So, Trecia. What would you say are the major differences between working [00:19:00] in a law firm, most specifically big law versus a corporation's legal department?

Trecia: So many differences. I think the primary differences in a law firm are reporting to a senior associate and a partner. Those are your clients. You're going to get a matter. They're going to tell you it's urgent. The client needs a response. The external client needs a response right away. And it's your job to get the answer.

And you do have to account for the time that you spend on each matter. So, you'll hear about the billable hour. So that's something you have to track internally at, at a law, in a law department, it's a broader picture. Your client is actually the corporation, and your clients are the business unit. The people who make up the business unit that you support.

Jordan: I know you were talking about differences working in like a law firm versus what you do now, which you love your job, but as an attorney working in both of these different sorts of environments, what is [00:20:00] one hardship that you had to overcome that you did not expect? 

Trecia: Goodness. That's a tough one. You know, my, I was raised to believe you work hard, get good grades, you go to college.

Now I'm going to law school. It's like life changing and you go there, and you do a good job and you'll be successful, right? That's what I was taught. And I entered these environments believing that you go there, you do a good job, you're a decent person, you work hard, you will find your path to success.

And I think for me, being a first-generation student and not having any professional people in my immediate family, really not understanding that hard work alone wasn't going to be enough to be successful. You know, I like to tell young and aspiring lawyers that you can't succeed on your own. Right. You need the benefit of mentors.

You need the support of mentors and sponsors, which, you know, the people who talk really, it's a really nice things about you when you're not in the room and advocate for you and [00:21:00] tell people to give you a chance because you have all this great potential. And so, I didn't feel that necessarily in each of the environments in which I worked.

And so that was one challenge that it really took me a long time to recognize and then also to overcome. Right. Because I'm like, well, I did everything right. I worked hard. I went to a good school, passed the bar at this firm. I'm working my butt off, you know, or this place and working my butt off.

Why isn't it materializing into the success that I am expecting? And I, thankfully I was able to take my talents to places where, um, I was able to get the kind of support That can lead to success. Right. And so, for me, the biggest challenge was actually experiencing that lack of support, and then.

recognizing that I needed to do something to change my circumstances. Otherwise, I would be one of the many unhappy lawyers that you hear of out there. And [00:22:00] I will always say, if you're a lawyer and you're unhappy, you're in the wrong place or you're doing the wrong thing, like practicing in the wrong area of law.

I love our profession. I think it has an incredible amount of potential to change lives in many ways. And so, if you're unhappy, Try changing your practice or changing where you're working and you might find that you have the support and the guidance and the mentoring and the sponsorship that you need that can help to guide you on your path to success.

Jordan: Having these connections and support from people, not only in like your workspace or just people just inside your life is as important as the hard work that you put in. 

Trecia: Absolutely. It may even be more so, right? Because again, you need people who are saying nice things about you when you're not there, or people who can recognize potential in you that you may not see for yourself.

So yes, I think it's equally as or maybe even a little bit more important to have that level of support. 

Hannah: Awesome. [00:23:00] So my question kind of goes right off of that one. Um, so how did you decide kind of when it was time to move on from a job opportunity and when to stick it out and push through? 

Trecia: Yeah. Oh, wow.

I love that one. Um, sometimes the decisions made for you in terms of sometimes the environment just becomes so untenable. You're like, it's going to be my sanity or, you know, something else. But honestly, that is not easy, right? Deciding that it's time to move on because as, as lawyers, you will find, I would say probably 99.

95 percent of us are risk averse. We don't like change. We don't like transition. We don't like the unknown. And when you're changing locations or jobs or employers, you're stepping from one thing, you know, even if it's not good for you into something that is unknown, and you don't it could be worse.

You don't know. But I [00:24:00] think when I reflected on What I envisioned my profession being like, I'm a very happy person. Like Vicki will tell you, I, I like to laugh. I like to smile. I'm very passionate about the things that I love and, you know, and the things I enjoy. And I just couldn't see myself spending the next, you know, several decades unhappy at work because we spend so much time at work.

And so, it just really was a matter of, you know, thinking about whether there were other environments where I think I would, one, be a better fit, two, where my talents would be recognized and acknowledged, and three, where I thought I could find, you know, find better opportunities. And you have to take a chance on yourself, right?

I think we are afraid to take chances on ourselves. And so, you get to a point where you're every day you're thinking about oh god I don't want to go to this job. Oh God, I, you know, I'm going to have to deal with X person or oh my goodness. I can't, Friday can't come fast enough. And it's only like Monday [00:25:00] at 9am, you know, and, and you get to a point where every thought is negative about, you know, going to work or doing something.

Choose yourself and you choose to take a chance on yourself. That's what I did. And I think. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't easy, but when, when you get to that point, you then have to have a strategy, you don't just get up one day and say, you know, I'm not going back to that job. I hate those people, right?

You have a strategy and an exit plan and really try to make your transition as smooth as possible because transition is disruptive enough without a plan. 

Vickie: And I would add to that. And any job that you have, you know, even now is something that you'll be able to take with you in the future. Think about what you're running from, as opposed to what you're running to, because you could be in a situation in which you're being stretched and its professional development, it's professional growth that's going to prepare you for your next [00:26:00] opportunity.

And should you decide to make a career or professional transition, not a career transition when you're an attorney, but an employer transition, you do your research first, and that takes time. It takes time. But, you know, no one, I really can't think of anyone that enjoys being stretched because it's uncomfortable.

But it is good for you. Being stretched is good for you, but you have to identify, be able to be self-aware and identify when that is happening. 

Hannah: Yes, that's something I'm working on currently because I push myself very, very hard, but sometimes I push myself to a fault. And I have to know when to back off a little bit and cut myself some slack and just give myself a break.

Trecia: That'll come, that skill will come in handy. Going 

Jordan: back to what Trecia said a little while ago about how she intakes so much reading material, what made [00:27:00] tackling all of that reading material easier for you throughout undergrad, law school, and even now? 

Trecia: Well, let me tell you, you're going to be reading, if you become an attorney, you'll be reading for the rest of your life in your day job.

Um, and what makes it manageable. I won't say it easy because our jobs aren't easy. Um, being a lawyer isn't easy. It is, it is challenging, um, and demanding. Um, but if you're like me, that actually keeps you going and keeps you motivated. What made, what made it manageable for me, um, throughout my educational period and now when I'm practicing, is just being disciplined, right?

Having a study plan if you're in school, sticking to the plan, giving yourself breaks, but making sure you're executing on your plan, right? You have, you know, class Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, you shouldn't be reading on, you know, Wednesday night, trying to catch up, because if you get behind, it’s almost, it's a wrap because you're going to miss material.

You're going to not understand as we build on [00:28:00] topics and, and, and subject matter, and it's the same thing in house, right? We have a lot of meetings at my, at MasterCard and you know, the last thing you want to do, especially when you're someone in my shoes as product counsel is show up to a meeting unprepared, right?

That means I didn't do my reading. I didn't prep. I didn't stick to my plan. And so if you have a plan and you execute it, or schedule, let me put it, let me kind of break it down into, into, I guess, words that would make sense for you as students, have a study schedule, a reading schedule, you know, pencil in when you're going to go to the gym, if you're going to go to the beach for a half a day, know that you have to sacrifice something either before or after that in order to enjoy yourself for a few hours, right?

And I, you know, you don't eliminate the things, things that fill your cup, right? If you like running and you like being outdoors and you like being at the beach, do all those things, but pencil them in and allow yourself to have that time. But you do have to be disciplined about doing the things that you have to do to be successful in school and then [00:29:00] ultimately in your job.

Hannah: And then going off of that question again, just in your opinion, what were some of the most difficult aspects of the transition from undergrad to law school? 

Trecia: It wasn't hard for me just because I was a student, right? I left college and I went to law school, and I literally just continued doing what I had been doing in college.

I wasn't one of those kids who partied all the time and didn't, you know, have, you know, any discipline and struggled or anything like that. So really it wasn't a big adjustment. The only difference that I thought was. I think a little jarring for most of us during our first year of law school is the way in which they teach.

And so, in law school, it's called the Socratic method. You know, you're supposed to do your reading ahead of class. So, the professor is walking around and he's looking for a name or she's looking for a name to pick out of the book to, you know, to give the summary of the case and the outcome. And you know, he'll say, Hannah, so tell us about, you know, X.

And you're like, shoot, I didn't do the reading. And now you're embarrassed because you didn't do the reading and you're at the spotlight in [00:30:00] front of a hundred of your peers, you know, that's the average size of a, a first year law class. So, you know, I think that was the most jarring because. I at that point in my life did not enjoy public speaking, the thought of everyone looking at me as I answered the question for the professor was like probably one of the worst things that could happen, and I had to overcome that right because as a lawyer.

You will be expected sometimes to speak in front of a room of people, whether you're going to court, whether you're negotiating a contract, whether you're, uh, giving a presentation to your clients if you're in house or at a law firm. So, it's a muscle that we have to start to exercise really early on. And I think it is a really good tool to get particularly those of us who are uncomfortable in front of a room to start talking.

Practicing, articulating ourselves, putting our thoughts together and summarizing material, especially complex materials that lawyers oftentimes have to deal with. [00:31:00] 

Hannah: That is good to know because I, like I said, school's kind of been my thing for my whole life. I consider myself pretty academic, but the one thing that I do know I need to work on is my public speaking, just being confident in myself and what I'm saying in front of a large group of people.

Trecia: Yeah, it still, like, gives me goosebumps. Like, I still get nervous. Um, I still get butterflies. I still worry, like, am I prepared enough? You know, but the more you do it, the easier it becomes. It's kind of like practicing for a sport or an instrument, right? The more often you do it, right? The, the better you become at it and then pretty soon you're actually just, you know, that's just what you do.

So, it's just, it really is a muscle that you have to, to flex and, you know, keep doing it. And ultimately, and in a few years, you're going to be like, oh, give me an, I could speak in front of the whole auditorium, you know, but not if you don't get over [00:32:00] that initial anxiety. And it took me years, so I'm not, it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

It took me a very long time, but it is something that we as legal professionals need to work on, take a public speaking course, some people do Toastmasters, some people take improv classes because you're forced to be on a stage, right? Literally and figuratively, and you get to be uncomfortable, but you're getting comfortable being uncomfortable.

And that is where that sweet spot is. You're comfortable being uncomfortable. And then you can actually deliver. And I think that is like the beauty of it. I, you, you would not have wanted to see me several years ago. It was terrible people. Now people are like, you're not introverted, Trecia. I am the biggest introvert.

I'm like, I wouldn't say I'm shy. I am definitely introverted. And I, just the thought of people looking at me and listening to me and hanging on my word, I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's a disaster. So, you know, but again, it, it, it improves over time. The more you do it. [00:33:00] 

Jordan: Wow, that is so interesting because I feel like I'm like the exact opposite from right.

Yeah. I love talking to people; I love getting to know people; I love public speaking-of course I am nervous like all the time and my heart really feels like it's going to stop, but I love it. I don't know why but yeah, I'm like, I'm less of the, like, academic base. Like, I still love learning stuff, but I love learning what I love to learn about, if that makes sense.

Right. 

Emma: What were the specific classes or courses that better prepared you? Or were there specific classes or courses? 

Trecia: Yeah, I don't think so. And, you know, we get this question a lot, right? What should I take? How should I prepare? And I, I don't think so. I think in college, which is where you, you know, you'll, you'll be there before law school, you want to take as many classes as you can.

You want to explore different areas and different subjects and topics so that when you do decide on a major or you do specialize, you can, you know, you [00:34:00] can focus fully on that without wondering what that other topic is like. Um, I didn't think any one class prepared me for law school. It is just a very different way of learning and being taught than college is, you know, a lot of lawyers are good writers right we write really well.

So, if you're a writer, take, you know, creative writing courses and courses that force you to think analytically, maybe political science or philosophy, those types of classes. I didn't take any of those. I didn't take any of those classes. I was a Frenchie. I loved the French language. I took a lot of French classes, and I focused on international relations.

So, a lot of classes on government, politics, international interplay between different countries and states. So, I, you know, and I did, I did great. You know, I ended up okay. So, I don't think there's any one particular path that prepares you better than others. There are people in law school who are engineers, and they become fantastic attorneys.

So, I think, you know, [00:35:00] everyone's path is different. And I would say for, for the college experience, you pursue your passion and, you know, get as broad an experience as you can. And then in law school, you'll just buckle down and figure it out. 

Emma: Yeah. Also, earlier you said that you liked French. I'm also learning French right now.

Oh, bonjour! Bonjour. 

Trecia: Yeah, I just love the way that French sounds. I love the way that it comes off your tongue. I love the language. I love everything about it. And so, in the, you know, in the vein of pursuing your passions, French classes are hard. But I was so like into them. I just worked so hard, and it was actually fun learning the language.

And so, you know, if you do something you love, it's not really work. 

Jordan: What study tips can you give for preparing for the LSAT and law school in general? 

Trecia: Yeah, for the LSAT in particular, I would say if you were fortunate enough to be able [00:36:00] to take a prep class. Please take one. It teaches you study tips, study skills, and test taking skills, and so it will help to prepare you for taking the exam.

I strongly recommend that. Not, I know not, not everyone can afford the LSAT prep courses, so I, you know, I say that. If you can't afford a class, the library has free books. Do lots of practice exams. And then, you know, on the tail of that, if you do take the prep class, take lots and lots of practice exams, it's like the SAT, literally, it's a standardized exam, so the more you take it, the better you become at.

Doing well on the test. So those are my study tips. And again, just be disciplined, have a schedule, plan your schedule, plan your lunch breaks, plan your dinners, plan your runs, but your focus is on studying so that you can do well on the LSAT so you can then go to the law school you want to go to. In terms of law school, it really is a similar approach.

And really like I didn't. I didn't participate in study groups. [00:37:00] I just don't study well with other people around. You know, that's, I guess maybe that's my introverted self coming out, but I like studying by myself. And, and so I think it's identifying how you study best, number one, and then number two, having a strategy about how to tackle all the material you have to ingest in order to perform well on the, the law school exams.

And, you know, a lot of people don't take advantage of this enough, but honestly, go to your professors and get sample exam answers. Not all of them give them out. Some of them only give them out if you ask for them. So, you know, it's important to know what your professor is looking for. Like, when you ask a question, what is the, show me the A plus answer or the B plus answer or whatever, and show me the D answer, right?

Because you don't want to submit the D But, you know, talk to your professors about How to best succeed on their exams, and a lot of people don't take enough initiative to have those conversations, [00:38:00] 

Jordan: right? And I also heard from someone that taking a logic class would be really important. I just wanted to get your opinion on if you think that would be beneficial before taking the LSAT.

Trecia: I didn't take one. My brain just doesn't work that way. I didn't really take anything other than the prep class to prepare for the LSAT. So, some people find it helpful. I mean, a lot of people took philosophy in my undergrad. Um, a lot of the prelaw folks took philosophy. I didn't, I couldn't imagine anything worse.

So, I didn't take it, but I did fine. So, I think it just depends on what works for you. A lot of people have a lot of suggestions, but you know, you know how your brain works, you know, um, when you do that. Initial screening exam for the LSAT, you'll see where your strengths and weaknesses are and then you can determine how to, you know, how to best approach preparing, but I don't I don't necessarily think any one class is going to give you a leg up.

Emma: Okay, great. Thank you. Did you have experienced lawyers that you could ask questions or get advice from? [00:39:00] 

Trecia: No, I, I had no one, I knew no lawyers and I actually ended up going to law school because all the other, I think I mentioned all the other smart kids were going to law school. I, I w I'm a good student and I was always a good student.

And so, I'm not trying to be stuck up when I say, or, you know, conceded when I say I was smart. So, I decided to go to law school, but all the other smart kids were going. So, I went to, and I was like, okay, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do for a living, but I guess, you know, having a law degree can't be bad.

I didn't know any lawyers. I, you know, as I mentioned, I was a first generation, you know, college and graduate student. So, I didn't know any lawyers directly. And, you know, I was fortunate though, to have some of my professors and some of the administrators at the law school who were, you know, who served in, in, you know, the capacity as mentor or, you know, kind of guidance so that I could ask them questions.

But prior to getting to law school, I had, I didn't have any resources that I could tap into. 

Emma: I noticed on your profile [00:40:00] that you went to George Washington University and how did going there better prepare you for the bar exam? 

Trecia: That's a tough question. I don't think any particular school prepares you better for the bar exam.

I think law school is, A process that we have to go through. It's a step towards becoming an attorney. What prepares you best for the bar exam is how you prepare for the bar exam. When the time comes, when you get there, there are many companies that offer bar review prep classes. And that is what will make the difference in your preparation for the bar exam.

What's great about those programs is that they provide you with preparatory materials. There are classes, there are study schedules, there's advice about how many tests you should take, how many essays you should write in practice, and how many questions you should take under time pressure, in the spirit of helping you to prepare to be successful in the bar exam.

Vickie: I appreciate it. You're very passionate about mentoring. [00:41:00] And as I shared listeners, that is one of her passions. It definitely is something that fills her cup. We have many mentors in our lifetime. If we're fortunate enough, some mentors choose us and sometimes we choose them. Right. But is there one of the many that I'm sure you've had throughout your career that was very instrumental?

And the success that you have today. 

Trecia: Yeah. So, when I was in law school, this is the one that stands out to me most. I don't even know that she knew that she was a mentor, but she certainly played that role and literally saved me from quitting law school my first year. There was a woman, a black woman who was in the administration at my law school.

I went to her in my first year. I was like, oh, you know, Dean, I think I'm going to-I can't do this. I don't even know what I'm doing here. I don't know what my grades are going to be because you only get one test and that your first semester and you don't get your grades until you've returned the second semester, like almost [00:42:00] halfway through the second semester.

So, you could have failed. You could have gotten A's, you could have gotten F's, you could have gotten D's, you don't know. And I, uncertainty is not where I thrive, right? And so, I was like, ready to just pack it all in and go away. And she was like, well, you're going to suck it up, and you're going to wait until you get these grades, and you're going to be fine, and you're not quitting law school, you are going to stay there, and you're going to just, you’re just going to do it and you'll, you'll be fine.

And essentially, you know, I sucked it up and I waited for my grades and I did fine, like they weren't great grades, but they were fine and I am forever grateful to her because she allowed me, I mean, she said a bunch of other things too, but she allowed me to not quit, right? She encouraged me to not quit, to not give up because one, I didn't know the outcome and even if the outcome wasn't what I wanted or what I had hoped, how could I change it or how could I have a better result?

If I walked away and just kind of, you know, threw in the towel. So, for me, that lesson was you can't really give [00:43:00] up on your dream before you even have a chance to achieve it because your breakthrough literally could be right around the corner. And like, I've taken that with me throughout my career. And so, I'm forever grateful to her for that.

Hannah: I was also wondering what, in your opinion, makes. a mentor mentee relationship the most effective or like the best that it can be. 

Trecia: All right. So, for, for, for, for a mentor mentee relationship to work, a couple of things need to align, right? The mentor really has to want to be a mentor because it is a giving relationship, right?

As a mentor, you're, you're, I mean, you're getting like that, you know, self-fulfillment, like this feels great to be doing something for someone else, all that. But a lot of your role as a mentor is in the giving. And so, someone really has to want to give and to pay. And to pour into someone else. So that's one thing that has to be present.

A mentor who's willing and [00:44:00] actually cares deeply about pouring into someone else. And then you need a mentee who is equally invested in the relationship and as thirsty for that knowledge and insight as the mentor is passionate about giving. The mentee has to exercise initiative, right? And so, it is the mentee's obligation to initiate contact to maintain contact. To kind of set the agenda for the meetings, you know, be clear about what your request is of the mentor. I mean, also to provide updates, right. It shouldn't just be transactional in nature. Oh, I need a recommendation. Can you help me, you know, or, you know, Oh my God, I'm.

Applied for this job. You know, I put you down as a reference. Is that okay? It's more, you're building a relationship over time and you're providing, you know, periodic updates. And you're asking for the privilege of spending time with this person so that you can learn from their wisdom and their knowledge so that they can help to position you to be [00:45:00] successful.

But as a mentee, you have to have that, that initiative. 

Vickie: Oh, she just gave you the playbook ladies. You have a playbook for your relationship, your mentee mentor relationship with Trecia. So, you were listening, I see that you were listening, and she'll be looking to see that because the more you pour into the relationship, the more she'll want to pour into the relationship, and she will be invested and that's what any really good mentor will do.

Trecia: The second piece of advice I have is you are, you sound very convinced and convinced that you are going to be an attorney, and I believe that for you, but should you, along your journey, that direction change, don't be afraid to just go with it. Should you. Feel a change in direction coming. Don't be afraid.

I think, talk about it with the people who love and support you and make sure that you are getting sound counsel from your support system as you're making a [00:46:00] decision. Uh, but I do hope you persist and go ahead and become an attorney because I would love to welcome you into the profession. 

Emma: Yeah, I think I'm gonna stick to it.

You know, I love the idea of becoming an attorney and I'm very confident with it. 

Trecia: Yeah, I love that. I wish I had that level of, uh, confidence and conviction at, you know, when I was 14, I was a mess. Same here. 

Vickie: Trecia, any parting thoughts, anything that you want to share with Hannah, with Jordan, with Emma, our listeners, as it relates to the, the value of mentorship?

And sponsorship. 

Trecia: Yes. So, I think if I had a word of advice, I would say that as you embark upon this journey, and especially as you start your legal career, because I do firmly believe you're all going to be attorneys, you're going to encounter obstacles, right? You're going to have days when you're like, [00:47:00] Oh my God, did I do the right thing?

Did I choose the right path? Did I choose the right place to work? Remember that. Chances are 99. 99 percent out of a hundred that whatever crisis you're dealing with in your journey as an attorney, someone else-many someone else's have been there and done it. And so, there is no need for you to experience that by yourself.

And there's no need for you to try to figure it out by yourself. And that is the benefit of having valuable mentoring relationships. It is part of the benefit that comes along with having a really connected network so that you can reach out to someone and say, this just happened to me at work, am I tripping or is this really something, or am I overreacting?

Or I really think I need to pivot and do something else. What are your thoughts? Because. Like many of us have been there and done it, and there's no need for those of you coming after us to go through it alone and try to figure it out alone. So, rely on your [00:48:00] mentors, rely on your network, and really seek the sage counsel of people who've already walked that walk for you.

Jordan: I absolutely love that. Cause that is something I also live by if I'm like doing something or I'm like, oh my gosh, that just happened. I feel like the whole world's going to explode. I'm like, wait, someone already did this. Someone's already did by now. They're probably like thriving. I just need a second to chill out.

And that's great that you said having other people to support you is also awesome too. I love that you said that. 

Vickie: Well, thank you, Jordan McClinney. Thank you, Hannah Fox. Thank you, Emma Bonfiglio, and thank you, Trecia, for today's fireside chat. I am so excited. For what's to come of you three aspiring attorneys.

I expect only good things. And if there's anything that I can do to further add value, as you continue your journey, I'm here for you as well, [00:49:00] Trecia. Thank you for giving up yourself. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, sharing your expertise and being so willing to give of your time. We really do appreciate 

Trecia: you.

Thank you, Vicki. Thanks for thinking of me. Thanks for the invitation. And it was my pleasure. 

Vickie: And thank you listeners for tuning in to another episode of Not Your Average DEI Podcast. Until next [00:50:00] time.