Does God Love Everyone the Same?

Take Redeemer's group survey here: https://thestateoftheology.com/groups/c9VLcikEs

Notes:

Scripture References

Pope Leo saying God loves all without condition

State of Theology Survey

'The Consequence of Ideas' by R.C. Sproul

Transcript

Riley Forrest: 0:00

Welcome back, everyone. We are back with another set of questions from the Ligonier state of theology survey. If you would like to participate in a group survey that we have just for our church, you can find that in the show notes below, it's kind of fun to take that and see where you line up with everyone else's responses. So find that in the show notes below. I hope you enjoy this episode. You're listening to. Church matters, a ministry of Redeemer church.

Gabe Davis: 0:24

Welcome to church matters, a podcast designed to help the church understand and apply a biblical worldview to all of life. I'm Gabe here with my fellow pastors, Jared and Riley. What's up, guys? How much it's going good we we are talking about a topic that I don't know. I don't know about you guys. So we're kind of continuing. This will be now our second episode talking about the Ligonier state of theology survey. Have you guys had any conversations with anybody about that first episode about

Riley Forrest: 0:52

sin? Not a lot. No, I did have our whole community group go on and take the survey themselves, because you can do that, and then you can see where your answers were in relation to the surveys answers. And that's pretty cool, pretty revealing,

Jerod Harper: 1:04

good. There you go. Yeah, I haven't had anybody talk to me about it yet.

Gabe Davis: 1:07

Yeah, I've talked with a couple folks about it. And yeah, I mean, I think the general response is just surprised. People couldn't believe some of the stats, especially because it's evangelicals, right? This isn't just like, what anybody and everybody and everybody thinks, you know, kind of general survey, but this is self reported. Evangelicals, you know, they believe the Bible is the final authority. They believe in the exclusivity of Christ, those kinds of things. And it's like, insane, yeah. So what is

Riley Forrest: 1:34

they do a good job proposing those results on their key findings page with the Bible is the ultimate authority for everything, and then a ridiculous statement, did they get

Gabe Davis: 1:43

wrong for sure. So this is the second episode where we're talking about kind of that survey, that theological survey, and the topic we're gonna the two stats that we're gonna discuss today is, one is that 94% of Evangelicals agree God loves all people the same way, so. And the second one is 47% agree God accept the worships, the worship of all religions. Okay, so those are the two statements. 94% of Evangelicals think that God loves all people same way, and 47% agree God accepts the worship of all religions. So just kind of first blush, guys, what are your thoughts when you hear that?

Riley Forrest: 2:25

Well, I mean, I am similarly surprised by those answers. I think especially the one that jumps out to me is the one on worship, because I think about that a lot, but that seems so incredibly far afield from where I would expect evangelicals to be, like, that's essentially just universalism. Yeah. So I yeah, that's, it's surprising. Yeah.

Jerod Harper: 2:48

I think the biggest thing is, if we're going to call ourselves evangelicals, and we're going to be, you know, people of the the evangelical the gospel, then you're going to be like, Oh, wait, that that means that there's some exclusivity

Gabe Davis: 3:02

there. Yeah, I wish I had seen this before I talked to Dr Steven Nichols, but I would love to ask, because, man, the 94% of Evangelicals thinking that God loves all people the same way. I Maybe I'm being too charitable here. I'm not sure, but I just have to believe that when they hear, heard the question, that they're just thinking, you know, there's some sense in which God loves all people. Or they're thinking in terms of, well, we're all image bearers, so God loves us, you know, he doesn't love like, certain ethnicities more or rich or poor, more, you know, like, maybe they're thinking in those kinds of terms, like I can't. I think that most Christians, as we start to unpack these things will go well, yeah, of course. So I sometimes I wonder, like, with these survey questions, is it just like a like, you didn't, you didn't think about it like, really, truly what you believe, and you just kind of said something a little bit silly. But if you really ask them one question, they'll realize, Oh no, I guess I don't mean that, you know, but I don't know. I don't know how like because with any kind of belief or statement like this, you then want to go, okay, but if this is something a person truly believes, like there's roots here, this isn't just, like, a flippant answer or not, you know, not well thought out, then the roots of that tree are going to be awful, or, like, the fruit of that tree is going to be awful, and and so if their roots, if their belief system really is, God loves all people the same way, and God accepts the worship of all religions, that's going to that's going to bear some pretty rotten ideas. It's the it's is that Sproul that Sproul that wrote the book, the consequence of ideas? It's going to be that, right, like there's a consequence to these kinds of ideas. They're not biblical ideas and and so, yeah, our job today is to kind of help root it out a little bit. So let me ask you guys this what? And this is speculation here. But. Why is it that you think like, what's the misconception? What do you think people when they approach this? Let's just take that. God loves all people the same way. What? What is the idea, the paradigm, the framework that they are working with to think something like that?

Riley Forrest: 5:16

The one that that came to my mind first was, we have this idea in public popular culture, that everyone is a child of God. You hear that all the time, like we're all children of God, which, I think what they're trying to express is that we're all image bearers of God, yeah, but they use the language we're all children of God, right? Which is not true or not all children of God. The children of God are those who he

Gabe Davis: 5:39

don't go too far down at our arguments. I just want to know why you think they think this. Yeah,

Riley Forrest: 5:44

I think it's partly because of that kind of cultural milieu of of thinking like we're all children of God, and therefore God loves us all the same. We also have in the culture, we just have a view of God that is very kind of neutered and nice. Yes, we have the the white Jesus with the blonde hair who only, like, holds a lamb and like, that's all he does. Is never pictured with the sword coming in judgment. This is kind of like the cultural view of Jesus. And so we extrapolate that into, well, how would Jesus relate to all the people of the world? Then, well, he must love them all. That's kind of, I think, I think it's

Gabe Davis: 6:23

Jesus loves the little children of the world, right? And there's something to that. But, yes,

Jerod Harper: 6:29

yeah, I think it's some of it can be a compilation of, uh, common grace and God's love, yeah? And so if he's going to give us all common grace, and that's for our good, then obviously it's probably for he because he loves us, but that's not exactly how common grace and His love work. Yeah.

Gabe Davis: 6:48

I think all of that is right. I do think that there's something to it just sounds maybe arrogant or mean to be like, God loves me and he doesn't love you, yeah? And which, I don't think even that statement is quite true. Da Carson has a book called The difficult doctrine of the love of God, which is really good on this subject. But it's called the difficult doctrine in part because it's difficult in terms of to explain it really in a nuanced, careful theological way, biblical way. But it's also called difficult because it kind of blows up some of those categories of like, even when we sing Jesus loves me, or we sing Jesus loves the little children of the world, like, there's, there's truth to those things, but we kind of take that and we extrapolate that out to everybody, right? So to your point, so yeah, I think people, there's a sense in which, if I say that God loves me and not you, that feels arrogant, that feels mean, yep, and and, so we want God to be just kind of this nice, sweet grandfather. We don't want this guy be in any way unloving, right? We want him to be nicer than Santa Claus, even, right? Santa Claus, at least has an naughty list, but yeah, so Okay, so 94% of Evangelicals agree God loves all people the same way, and 47% agree God accepts the worship of all religions. So those are the two kinds of ideas we're gonna just keep interacting with here a bit. Why is it that you guys think that 47% think that God accepts the worship of all religions, That one seems harder to me, the harder in the sense that maybe because the 94% it's so high that I'm like, they just didn't understand the question. I can't believe that they would actually think that. And then the 47% I'm like, that God accepts the worship of all religions now that one seems like, no, they probably did kind of understand it. That's pretty clear. Yeah, and that's hard. So therefore it's harder in the sense that, like, really, like, what are you guys thinking? You know, it's

Riley Forrest: 8:47

also shocking if, if we as pastors look at that and we say, Is this a picture of my church? Like, is my church 47% is it? I don't believe it. I don't think it's Redeemer. But, like, just that thought even it's, like, even if it's not 47 Yeah, there are people in our church, I would bet that would answer this question this

Gabe Davis: 9:06

way, yeah, well, and not just Yes. So like, at Redeemer, perhaps I there are some that would would hold this, and maybe they're going to listen to this, hopefully, if not send it to them, you know, talk about it, ask them. Not, not like, in a grilling sort of way. But, you know, like, have these conversations, and hopefully this will help even you kind of think through it biblically. Because maybe, maybe at first biblically, you wouldn't really know how you'd address this, but intuitively, you're kind of like, that doesn't that doesn't seem right, you know. But I think what it does speak to is, you know, when we get into broader evangelical movements, whether that be political movements, you know, ecumenical, like, lots of different churches coming together, kind of a broad spectrum of evangelicals, para church ministries. Like, the more that you go out into that, the more that this starts to become representative of that population, right? Like, because you're getting a broader and broader stream of evangelicalism, there's pretty even. Jellicle streams are pretty are pretty broad. So, so, yeah, so what? Why do you think that 47% think that God accepts the worship of all religions?

Jerod Harper: 10:09

I I couldn't come up with a reason. I'm like, I don't.

Riley Forrest: 10:12

I think some of it is a similar kind of reason, like, if we say that, it's kind of why, if God doesn't accept the worship of these people who are who seem really devoted, who see, even like moral people, like people we would like and would hang out with. And yet we're saying God doesn't accept your devotion, your worship to false gods, because God is the true God. I think that's that's sort of one reaction that we can have, like that feels mean of me, that feels not nice. I don't want to be that way, and so therefore he must accept that.

Gabe Davis: 10:44

Yeah, I do think that these two topics hit on two. I don't know, maybe idle is the wrong word, but like two problematic ways of thinking for evangelicals, which is niceness and sincerity, like those two like, those are both good things. It's good to be nice. It's good to be sincere, right? But niceness and sincerity, if twisted, if if distorted, then we go, well, it's not nice of God to not love all people the same way. Therefore, I can't fathom that he could be like that. Like our God becomes a reflection of who we think we're supposed to be. So we're supposed to be nice. And so we create him in our image and go, well, then that means he's supposed to be nice. Or we think that, well, it's okay, like they're sincere, like they but they really mean it. They really believe it. And so we want to then kind of add value to that sincerity and say, well, because someone is sincere, therefore we want to give a certain amount of like, so God probably like appreciates that they at least really believe what they think, you know, and but it's so funny because we wouldn't, I don't think we would do that with like, you know, when the Aztecs ripping out people's hearts, or the, you know, Molech worshippers or sacrificing children Like, I don't think we'd be like, well, but

Jerod Harper: 12:04

they're sincerely burning their children

Gabe Davis: 12:06

fire. Really did believe in Molech and so, but, but, you know, there's kind of this, this cast over some of the religions of the world today, where we go, well, but they're, they're good people and and so then we can kind of think that, like the Mayans, you could never have, like, a good conversation with, maybe you would have a good conversation with a Mayan or an Aztec or whatever person before they went out and ripped their heart out of their sacrifice, you know, like, so it's just kind of, but I think sincerity and niceness get kind of jumbled up in this conversation and and kind of, we end up creating a God in our image, instead of saying, but who is our God? Yeah, right.

Riley Forrest: 12:40

There's also just this, again, this cultural current of, I mentioned universalism before. I think that's really what this is, just universalism. It's like that. I think I've heard this analogy before of like a bunch of guy a bunch of blind guys touching an elephant in the two different parts, like this. Oh, it must be a tree because he touched the leg, that sort of thing. And that's kind of like the cultural conception of religion in general sometimes is that they're all just touching different parts of the elephant, yeah, but they're, they're still worshiping the same elephant, right? That's not what Christianity

Jerod Harper: 13:10

believes. Yeah, I've seen, I've seen it where you either have, you have the elephant, or you also have the like, God is, God is at the top of a mountain and all roads. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've seen a little cartoon of that, yeah. And then, and then, where you see it out in culture is the coexist bumper sticker. You know, they have all of the original things on there. It's like, can't we all just get along? And I'm just like, every time I see one of those, I'm like, You have no understanding of world religions at all, yeah, if you're going to put that on your car. And so I I wonder if some of it is like we think we might be more acceptable to the world if we go, oh yeah, we can be. We can play nice with other people.

Gabe Davis: 13:50

Yeah. So the way I encountered this, actually, especially the God accepts the worship of all religions, the way I have encountered this in Christianity, well, let me just ask you guys, have you encountered this in Christianity, like in Christian, Christian circles.

Riley Forrest: 14:01

Personally, I don't think so in the way that you're referring to it. I've had conversations with people who say they are Christian, who think this, yeah, but not somebody like, I would affirm you are a Christian and you're thinking this.

Gabe Davis: 14:16

I just because,

Jerod Harper: 14:18

yeah, I mean, I don't know anybody who's like fighting for it Sure, just maybe some people who, unbeknownst to them, just didn't realize that that can be the case.

Gabe Davis: 14:28

Yeah, so, I mean, for me, I've definitely encountered this a handful of times, and I can give you two examples. One would be talking to people about like the natives, Native Americans, or people in different parts of the world, and they're like, well, but they were worshiping like the nature father, you know, or the nature mother. And what they were really trying to do is they were trying to worship the Creator and and so doesn't God? Kind of look at that and go, Well, okay, great on this. Sure, yeah, yeah. Like, they don't have the Bible, and they haven't heard the gospel and so, but like, they're trying to show appreciation for the deer, you know, or the meadow, and so they're kind of like thanking God, even though they're calling him great spirit in the sky or whatever. And so, like, isn't he kind of good with that, you know, like, that's one iteration of that that I've definitely encountered several times over the years with with Christians. And it usually comes up in trying to deal with the question of, what do we do with groups of people in the world that have never heard the gospel, right? And so they want to be like, well, but if they're sincere and they're really meaning it, and they're just have their religious practice, but they're trying to think a higher being for it. Then isn't that good, you know? And doesn't that mean that God probably just receives that and grades them on a curve? And then the other iteration of it is more often with like Judaism and Islam, where people will be like, well, when they say Allah, they're really talking about the God of the Bible. Or when they say Yahweh, I mean Old Testament Jews, like they are. They're acting like Old Testament Jews, right? And so like when modern, when people today who are ethnically Jewish and who practice Judaism and they believe in the God of the Old Testament, right? When they believe in Yahweh, or they believe in the Old Testament, aren't they saved then, because, and God just kind of goes like, well, you sort of missed Jesus, but, like, you got the other, you know, a lot of it, right? And so I'll give you, I'll give you credit, you know, partial credit, or whatever. And so I think that is, it's those two kinds of and with Islam, it's, oh, well, Allah is a derivative or connected to the language for Yahweh and so, or God. And so what they're trying to do is they're actually trying to pray to the God of the Bible, the same God we believe in, but they're just using different terminology. And it's like, no, because as you start to understand what the character of that being is, it's a the character of that being is dramatically different than the character of the God of the Bible. So, but that's the other place I hear. So one is kind of in the like, what about the people groups that have never heard? And the other tends to be with Judaism and with with Islam. But so let's ask, let's ask this question to kind of now push the conversation a little bit further. If God, and maybe for people listening, here's a question that I think really should kind of cut through some of the fog of this. If God loves everyone the same and he accepts all worship, why did Jesus have to die, right? Like, doesn't that question really just kind of reveal, like, what's at stake here in this conversation. Because if God loves everyone the same and accepts all worship, why did Jesus have to die? You're like, Well, yeah, I mean, I guess in one sense, then if, if the Native American can be just saved through their worship of the Spirit in the sky, kind of general creator person. Then, like, and, and they didn't really need the blood of Jesus. They didn't really need the atoning work of Christ. Then he wasn't really necessary for them. Yeah, right. And if, you know, like, for Islam, or for Muslims and for Jews that have rejected Christ, I guess they don't really need Christ, as long as they just hold to these, these elements, you know, these practices, or whatever.

Jerod Harper: 18:22

So it It either makes God like It either makes Jesus unnecessary, right, or it makes God very unloving, yeah, because people are like, Hey, I'm doing great. God's accepting my worship, even though I don't believe any of this. And then you get to heaven, you're like, oh, wait, hold on, there was more, yeah. And it's like, Why didn't anybody ever tell me this? Why didn't why was I informed that my worship actually wasn't acceptable and I actually needed to believe this over

Gabe Davis: 18:48

here? Yeah, or it makes God so loving in such a way that it distorts all the rest of his character. It's like this universalistic kind of I love everybody. There is real No, no real justice. I don't really care that much about sin. It's not my my it's not the best plan I have for your life, but it's not the worst. You know, it's not like I'm gonna judge that, and it kind of diminishes the holiness of God. It diminishes etc, etc. So, so let's now just talk about what the Bible actually teaches about God's love first. Let's look at that first kind of question, what does the Bible teach about God's love? Um, God's love? No surprise, this is from Ligonier this survey, but a guy that we've referenced a handful of times on this podcast, RC Sproul, has kind of this helpful breakdown. Carson also has a really great breakdown in the difficult doctrine of the love of God, but Sproul has a breakdown of talking about God's love that I think does help us get into some of this discussion in a way that kind of clarifies some of the categories here. So the first kind of love He talks about that we see of God is his love of benevolence, his benevolent love. So does anyone want to give kind of a shot at. Explanation of of that, where we see that, I

Jerod Harper: 20:03

think this is relating more towards his common grace, that he's he's he shows to all people, providing rain, sunshine, his temporal blessings is righteous and unright to the unrighteous and unrighteous alike. And so he's benevolent towards everybody. He's been a meaning good. He's good towards all people, and how he works in their favor towards certain things, not, but not all things, right?

Gabe Davis: 20:29

Yeah, and, and what Sproul does with that is, he said he talks about the way he kind of breaks up benevolence and beneficence is that benevolence is God's disposition, like it's his attitude more so it's like speaking to his like, his like that he had. He bears no ill will. It's like, so like when we hear in Luke that the angels show up and they say, you know, glory to God, peace, peace on earth, and goodwill to men. It's like, that's revealing God's when we hear that he wishes that none should perish, that all would come to or that he takes no pleasure, rather, in the death of the wicked. When we read that, it's getting at the idea of kind of his, the way he feels about mankind, it's it's getting at at that piece of it, his benevolence, beneficence will hit that. But that's kind of like they're so closely related, but, but I think beneficence is a little bit more what you're saying of the his actions that show up in that are His disposition. Does that make sense? Okay? So like

Jerod Harper: 21:39

benevolence is the is the heart, yeah? Beneficence. I guess it's probably the efficacy. It's like, this is putting benevolence into action. It's

Gabe Davis: 21:48

good action, yeah? So, like, if you think of his his loving heart would be like benevolent, His merciful heart, His merciful disposition. And then how does that actually show up in action? Is all the stuff that you're talking about, about making a rain on the just and the unjust, sometimes that gets called common grace, right? So, so, okay, so scripturally, let's look at benevolence. How I referenced one that he takes some pleasure in the death of the wicked. But what are some other Bible verses that would help us understand the benevolent love of God? This is kind of his attitude toward humanity.

Riley Forrest: 22:25

We have, we have a bunch of references, I think, in in Psalms. The one that you've noted here is Psalm 145, nine, says the Lord is good to all, and His mercy is over all that He has made. So there's this all encompassing nature in which God is benevolence towards all of His creation. And like, like you said earlier, the rain falls in the just and the unjust, like rain in, in that context, would be a very good thing for your crops to grow and right now, yeah,

Gabe Davis: 22:54

anything else? No, I think that's okay. So you started talking about his beneficence. So let's go into that so, but if you just think of these, as really related, but benevolence is kind of that internal disposition beneficence, let me actually see I think I have where Sproul talks about the benevolence aspect. He says benevolence is derived from the Latin prefix bene, which means well or good, and is the root for the word will. Creatures who exercise the faculty of the will by making choices are called volitional creatures. Though God is not a creature, he is a volitional being in so far as he also has the faculty of willing. And then he goes on to say that God does not delight in the death of the wicked, even though He decrees it, his judgments upon evil are rooted in his righteousness, even though or not in some distorted malice in his character. Then he gives the example like an earthly judge, who would weep when he sends the guilty for punishment. God rejoices in the justness of it, but gets no Glee from the pain of those justly punished. So he's talking that's the love of benevolence or goodwill, and he says extends to all people without distinction. God is loving, in this sense, even to the damned. So every person experiences something of the benevolent, merciful, gracious character of God. Every creature on the face of the earth experiences something of that. And then that's like you were saying the the efficacy or the action of beneficence. Let's, let's look at some verses that help us unpack that a little bit. So Matthew 543 somebody got that?

Riley Forrest: 24:41

Yeah, I've got that. You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father, who is in heaven, for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Gabe Davis: 25:01

Okay, and then one more that's kind of related, but acts 1416

Jerod Harper: 25:05

he says, in past generations, he allowed the nations to walk in their own ways, yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful season satisfying your hearts with the food and gladness.

Gabe Davis: 25:21

Okay, so, you know, you can be a culture. You can be a person that absolutely hates God, and you can still grow strawberries, yeah, right. You can be, I mean,

Jerod Harper: 25:31

maybe I have another great thumb, yeah, well,

Gabe Davis: 25:35

but that's like, right? You can, you can have a beautiful garden that sustains your family, that you eat off of, that you enjoy, that makes your heart glad, all of those things, and yet you can want absolutely nothing to do with God, right?

Riley Forrest: 25:48

And those, one of the aspects I love about common grace is that those things can still give glory to God, in a sense, right, even the the things that the unbelievers do not necessarily mean for worship to God can still display His glory. Unbelievers can make great music that displays the glory of God in some way. Them cultivating a great strawberry shows the glory of God in creation. So it's not like I think sometimes those of us who grew up in church can have this kind of sacred secular divide, even in things like the arts, where we say, oh, because that was created by a non Christian, I can't partake in that. There's nothing. There's nothing good in it. I need this Christian alternative when really there's there is something that might be good about that because of God's common grace to mankind, that they can still produce things that display something of God's glory, even though they're not made with the intention of doing so,

Gabe Davis: 26:39

yeah, so I mean the rain on the just and the unjust, if you just follow that to what that means, it means that a city that is sustained by water, right, like water wells and different things like that, it's that's God's loving kindness that is allowing that. Maybe I shouldn't say loving kindness, whatever. But you guys know what I mean. This is his, his benevolent, beneficent, beneficent love that is showing up in this city in such a way that is keeping them alive, right? And that is a way in which we can rightly say, God loves everyone. He loves everyone in in that he's acting in this kind of way. And so I don't know where the term common grace originated. Was that. Do you guys know? Was that a reform? I think so. Reformers kind of language, I'm not sure, but, but that's that a shorthand version of benevolent, beneficent, his love, in that way, is common grace. That's what people that's what people mean. That's what we mean. That's what Christians have meant when they say that terminology is they're saying there's a way in which God is gracious, that he's good, that he's loving toward everybody common. It's not a selective kind of grace. It's not a it's not only for particular people. It is a grace that every person can enjoy. You have a child, and you get to hold that little baby, and they giggle and laugh. I'm picking on the Aztecs today, you know, but you look at that baby and it smiles and giggles and laughs, and then later on, you're gonna go join the cult practice where you're going to see a human sacrifice, like, that's evil, wicked. And yet there's still like these little moments of joy and happiness and delight in food and children and rain and sunshine and all of that. And that's all just God's like common love on his creation. That's him saying when he made the world it is good, right? So, so we have the benevolent love of God is his internal attitude, disposition, his beneficence, which is the actions that he takes. Now let's talk about that, that third category, Sproul has kind of an interesting way of describing this. I don't know if you guys saw this when I sent it, but the complacent love of God. Did you guys look into what that with that mental school, it is old school, yeah?

Riley Forrest: 29:03

Well, because it's different, right, than we can, yeah? Like, a bad connotation,

Gabe Davis: 29:08

yeah, yeah. So when we hear it, the complacent love of God, I mean, I might, I mean, who am I to argue here with, with Sproul, but I might use, like, the covenantal love of God, or, you know, so that's other ways I think that we could talk about it, but the complacent love of God, he's using terminology that Jonathan Edwards used, where he said, since this is a personal narrative from Edwards, Jonathan Edwards, who is considered one of the greatest American theologians ever, if you listen to Piper, you're hearing kind of an updated version of Jonathan Edwards in a lot of ways. But he says, since I came to this town, speaking of Northampton, I've often had sweet complacency in God, in views of his glorious perfections and the excellency of Jesus Christ, God has appeared to me a glorious and lovely. Being, chiefly on account of his holiness. The holiness of God has always appeared to me the most lovely of all His attributes. And so what Sproul shows is, you know how that word complacent is a word that has changed over time, and that, if you kind of trace it backward, what it what it really meant was the fact or state of being pleased with a thing or person, tranquil pleasure or satisfaction in something or someone. And so that was the original usage of that term. And so what, what, you know, this other kind of aspect of God's love, the love of complacency, or his covenantal love, would be a kind of love that he has, just for his children, just for his those who are in Christ. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Jerod Harper: 30:48

Yeah, it's, it's, it's not shown to everybody at all times, in all places. It's shown to particular people, whom he's he's set his affection on, that he's loved, that he's predestined, adopts and saves. So these are not this wouldn't be true of people who are not in Christ.

Gabe Davis: 31:05

Yeah, I think every Christian should be able to get this, or should be able to see this. We'll look at some Bible passages here in a moment. Maybe you could pull some of those up. But I think every Christian could get this when we think about, you were talking about this a little bit, Riley, but when we say children of God, right? That's that's a misnomer to describe every human being on the face of the planet as a child of God. Well, just, just think about it for a minute. What do we believe happens in our salvation? Well, we're forgiven, we're declared righteous, but we're also adopted, right? Okay, so adopted. What does that mean? Well, that means we went from not having a father, not having God as our Father, to to having God as our Father. That's the adoption, right? We went from not being a part of God's family to being a part of God's family. That's that adoption language. That's what that means. So what that means is, before you were adopted, you were not in the family of God, so you could not pray God, Father, God, he wasn't your father. He you were not a part of God's family. So when we talk about being a child of God and every human being being a child of God, that's not quite right. And so then when you start thinking about being adopted by God as your Father, well then the kind of love that He has for His children is different, and those who are that he has adopted is different than the kind of love He has for those who aren't his children, right? Right? Yeah. I mean, even we get on a human level, yeah, obviously,

Jerod Harper: 32:51

even the current sermon series, which we've seen, yeah, over and over again, like, Jesus tells them You are your father's the devil, yeah, right. It's like, no, no, you're not children of God, right? And it's like, very clear, like, he's he's saying there's a distinction. You may be one of God's created people, but you're not his child,

Gabe Davis: 33:11

yeah. And with that, I think what's good about that is people think that you have, okay, so they were children of the devil, I guess. And then we're children of God if we're Christians. And so that must mean there's this just large category of neutral people that really don't have anybody as their father. But that's, that's not true there. Jesus says, if you're not with me, you're against me, yeah. So Paul would say, by nature, we are children of wrath. Yeah, right, exactly. So you're, you are, you are children of before God adopts you, before you are adopted in Christ, which, again, that's why this gets to the sufficiency of Christ, the necessity of Christ, before you were adopted in Christ, then you were child of wrath, sons of disobedience. Your father is the devil, like God is not your father, right? Yeah. So let's look at a couple of verses. We've referenced a handful here, but pull up a few verses that would help us kind of explain this a little bit

Riley Forrest: 34:09

more. Yeah. I mean, I think the the most pertinent one is Ephesians one, four through six says, Even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace with which He has blessed us in the beloved so can you go to the part with adoption? Just read that He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Christ, Jesus. Okay,

Gabe Davis: 34:37

so he adopted a he purchases for adoption through sit again, slow down.

Riley Forrest: 34:43

Predestined us for adoption to himself, to himself, be God, the Father as sons, yes, through Jesus

Gabe Davis: 34:49

Christ, right? So there's the necessity of Christ, right? So our adoption doesn't happen apart from Christ. It happens through Christ. So apart from Christ, we're actually not adopted either. Yes. It's not as though you can just hurdle Jesus and get to the Father. The Bible makes it clear that the way that you're adopted is through Jesus Christ. That's how so that gets to both of those ideas, not only of God loves all people the same way. Well, no, he loves his children in a unique way, in a special way, in a saving way. Again, this is where I think every Christian can get this. Who goes to heaven? Do children of God go to heaven? Yes, of course. Who is a child of God, right? Well, those who have been adopted, okay? Has everyone been adopted through Jesus Christ? No. And this is also where the God accepts the worship of all religions comes into play, because if God accepts the worship of all religions, then that means you don't need Jesus in order to be accepted, adopted, worshipful toward God, right? Cuts out the necessity of Christ there. Otherwise. Okay, so with that, anything else you guys want to add to the idea of the complacent love of God, or the covenantal love of God, the unique love that God has for His people who are in Christ, Jesus. Anything else you guys want to add to that?

Jerod Harper: 36:10

No, I think that's good for me. Okay. Okay,

Gabe Davis: 36:13

so next, what does the Bible teach about worship? Oh, do I have to talk to him? Yes, I'm looking at you. Yeah, let's talk just about, like, what you talk about finances. What does the Bible teach us about worship? And when we talk about worship here, we're not talking primarily about singing, although that's obviously a part of it. So although, looking at you, not really looking at you, because we worship with all of our lives, not just with our singing on a Sunday morning, right? So, so what is it? What is talk to us a little bit about what the Bible teaches about, true worship, the exclusivity of it?

Riley Forrest: 36:51

Yeah, well, it's pretty clear in the Bible that there is a way to engage with God that He has called for. So we see that from the very beginning, the first kind of act of worship after the fall we see is Cain and Abel bringing two different types of offering to God, one he accepts, one he denies. We're not really told the reason for that. People have different ideas about it, but it's clear that God differentiates between the worship that he accepts and the worship that he does not accept. That's true from the very beginning of the Bible. And God does not change the way that he interacts with that throughout the biblical story. I think, as I mean, how far do you want me to

Gabe Davis: 37:31

go in this? So when we hear that God accepts the worship of all religions, why is that? What is that missing? Or what is that getting wrong? What? What is the biblically? What is the way that we would say, No, no, actually, God demands a exclusive kind of particular kind of

Jerod Harper: 37:50

worship. I mean, again, current sermon series in the Gospel of John Jesus talking, I'll allow it, yeah, Jesus talking with a woman at the well, and, you know, he gets into some nitty gritty of her life, and she wants to then kind of divert and talk about something else. And so she wants to talk about worship, and Jesus says to her, there's coming a day when the true worshiper will worship in spirit and in truth. You have to have both of those. You have to be in spirit and in truth and and I think that's where the heart of the issue is, is that a Muslim as sincere as they can be, cannot worship in the spirit and in truth. Islam is false. They are not in the Spirit. If they are in Islam, they've submitted to a different god, submitted to a different religion, submitted to a different understanding and a different truth. So therefore their worship cannot be accepted by God, because it is neither in the spirit nor nor is it in truth that's the same, even with people we would love to see come into the kingdom, as we talked about on one of these episodes that we did recently, like we would love for people in Israel who who claim to love God Yahweh, we would love to see them come to the right understanding of who Yahweh is as revealed in Jesus Christ, because that is the fuller Revelation, that that is the perfect revelation of who who he is. And so because they deny that, they deny who God actually is.

Gabe Davis: 39:07

Yeah, I think a narrative account of of this that is shows us how seriously God takes the right worship of Him is from Leviticus 10, the sons of Aaron Nadab and Abihu. It reads this way. It says, Leviticus. This is from Leviticus 10, verse one. It says, Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the Lord which he had not commanded them, and fire came out from before the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said to Aaron, this is what the Lord has said among those who are near me, I will be sanctified, and before all the people, I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace so his his two sons, Aaron's sons who were. Are functioning as priests. They go and they try to worship God in a way he had not commanded them to worship Him, and God kills them. And you know, this is similar, reminds me of like Ananias and Sapphire, right? God does not every single time that someone falsely, wrongly in an unauthorized way, tries to worship him, just on their own basis, of their own, with their own approach, and not in a way that he's commanded them to. God doesn't strike them dead every time a person with like Ananias and Sapphire, every time a person withholds their their giving in a way that actually is sinful. God doesn't strike them dead every time they lie about it, et cetera. God doesn't strike them dead, but he gives us these stories, these narratives, as an example for us to take warning and to say, I want you to see how seriously I actually take this. So God wants to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. He wants to be worshiped in a particular way. And so the the worship that is offered even to him, that is not in the way that he has actually called us to worship him, is not pleasing to Him. And so the question is, is any worship that is offered to God apart from Christ? Is it pleasing to him at this point? And I would say, No, it's through Christ that our worship is acceptable. Yeah, right, yeah.

Riley Forrest: 41:29

I mean, we see in in the book of Revelation. Here I go to Revelation again. We see in Revelation the the elders, the saints, the martyrs, are worshiping the lamb. They're not just worshiping God. They're worshiping Jesus. They're worshiping the lamb. He's the object of their worship. Where, where you have worship? Where, where Christ is not worshiped. Christ is not honored. Or in religions like like Mormonism, for example, they believe in a different Jesus. They would say that they're worshiping Jesus. They're not. They're worshiping a counterfeit of him. There's not true worship happening.

Jerod Harper: 42:05

Yeah, not totally aside. But I actually saw yesterday on X, formerly known as Twitter, that there was a guy who had a whole huge thread going on why Christians need to stop saying that Mormons are not Christians. And he was like, they use the same words, and they usually. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like they do not. They might use the same words, but they are not the same meanings. And therefore that is not spirit and it is not truth.

Gabe Davis: 42:35

First, Corinthians, 1019, the apostle Paul says this, what do I imply? Then he's talking about food being offered to idols. He says that food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything. No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. So the Apostle Paul is like, look, when they're worshiping and and even the way he says this, they offer to demons and not to God. There's this idea here. What Paul is saying is that the the kind of sacrifices they're making, whether or not they say that's to God or not, that is not to God, they are they are offering it to demons, right? And then he says in verse 21 you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he and so if you're not worshiping the biblical God, then the being that you are worshiping is not the biblical God. It is a demon. And Paul is really explicit that you're not to both participate in it's talking about the cup the Lord's Supper. You're not to both participate in that and the cup of of demons. It's it's not there's only one way to the Father. It's through Jesus Christ. There's only one way to worship the Father in spirit and truth. It's through Jesus Christ. Yeah, if you're not doing that, then ultimately you're offering sacrifices to demons. Yeah? Which big no, no, yeah,

Jerod Harper: 44:05

no matter, no matter, even if you look nice and clean and everything put together, Mormons have some really great families, but that's all in worship to demons.

Gabe Davis: 44:14

Yeah, right. So the John Piper says this quote, he says, other gods are competitors. They're enemies, they're demonic. So Allah is I don't think that Allah is just a figment of someone's imagination. I don't think the the angel that Muhammad says just that came and visited him, or the angel that came and visited Joseph Smith, I don't, I don't actually think that those are just totally made up stories. I think that they were visited by demons, yeah, truly, and that the demonic, sort of haunted Cosmos, and that those demons would actually look for worship and seek to deceive and and so, of course, God isn't that. Pleased with worship that we're offering to to demons. And if you're like, Well, how can you say it's demonic? It's like, well, look at the fruit of it and see if it actually accords with the character of God or something else. Yeah, and that something else is is often actually, as Paul says, The demonic. So yeah, what if? Let's just think about these three categories really quick here, the incarnation, the atonement and the Great Commission, if God accepted all worship, then there would be no need for either of those three things, any of those three things. Okay, so why would there be no need for the incarnation of God accepted all worship?

Riley Forrest: 45:34

Why does Jesus need to be here at all? If you can not worship Him and still receive the love of God. Be children of God, be with him.

Jerod Harper: 45:42

The The thing that always gets thrown back at Christians is, is that for God to kill his own son is like the cosmic child abuse, right? And if God accepts the religion of all religions, then yes, I would agree, because that like that would just he didn't need to send he didn't need to send him, like in my case, if I can get to God through Islam, or if I can get through him through Mormonism, or if I can get them to Buddhist studying nature, why in the world would he send his son to die?

Gabe Davis: 46:12

Yeah, okay. What about the atonement? I mean, obviously related, because the Incarnation preceded the atonement. But why is there no need for the atonement if God accepts all worship? Yeah.

Riley Forrest: 46:23

I mean, the Atonement is the paying of a price, right? And so And Jesus came to pay the price of sin. But if we can continue in our sin and still go be with God at the end of our lives, then what there was no actual atonement accomplished and wasn't forgiven it, and yet it was just magically, you know, off into the ether for some reason, and we still get to be with God. That doesn't, yeah, doesn't make any sense.

Gabe Davis: 46:46

Yeah, yeah, if you don't need the atone. I mean, the atonement of Christ was to pay the penalty for our sin and to redeem us, to rescue us, so that we could be adopted through him, right, that we could be united to him by faith and so, but a religion that says you can get to God without an atonement, then the whole reason that Christ had to make atonement for us so that was so that we could come into the presence of God, so that, as through our union with Him, we actually can a sinful people can stand before a Holy God, yeah, but if you actually didn't need union with Christ in order to stand before a holy God, then the atonement was not, not necessary. Yeah, right. And then thirdly, Great Commission. How would it make the Great Commission unnecessary? If God accepted all

Jerod Harper: 47:36

worship, why would they need to accept anything else? Right? They don't need the gospel, if everything's accepted,

Riley Forrest: 47:42

yeah, wouldn't it be if the argument from, like, doing just fine, for example, yeah? Like, oh, well, because they didn't hear the gospel, they get a pass. They get to go with God that it's actually kind of more loving of me to not share the gospel with them, because then they might hear it and reject it. But right now, they're going to be okay, yeah?

Gabe Davis: 47:59

Well, what sometimes people will do is they'll be like, well, it's good for them to get more truth, because more truth will improve their life. And so it's kind of like this, Jesus becomes an add on. Jesus becomes kind of a boost to the other otherwise good path that they're on, but not a necessary component of it, right? Exactly. Okay, so that's, that's what, what does the Bible teach us about worship? What does the Bible teach us about God's love? And then a little bit of, why does it matter? But anything else you guys want to add in that kind of last category of, just, why do you why do you think that this matters?

Jerod Harper: 48:38

I think, I think it matters for even for what the Bible tells us, like, if, if everything's acceptable, and you don't have to, like, believe in Jesus, and it's all good, then why would God even need to reveal itself? Like, we don't need a Bible, we don't need a revelation. We don't need anything, because everything's acceptable and it also, then it ruins the character of who God is, because He has revealed Himself through Scripture. Yeah, to tell us these things, yeah.

Gabe Davis: 49:08

Riley,

Riley Forrest: 49:09

I think it's a it's also a good reminder, a warning to us to be Be careful not to fall into some really old heresies. The one that I think pops up in my mind. The most talking about this is called marcionism. And I might be, I might be butchering the explanation of this, but I'm pretty sure that's the one where there's God of the Old Testament who acts one way. God of the New Testament acts another way. And it's usually like God of the Old Testament, bad, cruel, kind of evil in a way. He's all about the rules. He's gonna punish you if you don't, if you don't follow him, yeah, he needs a sticker spark. And then God bar. And then the guy the New Testament is like, he's satisfied now. He's all nice and good. And if we, if we aren't reading our Bibles well and seeing the continuity of of God in our Bible, that it's not an Old Testament God and a New Testament God, it's one god the whole time through. So if we're not diligent in reading that, well, we can start to slip into that heresy of marxianism, because that's what our culture is going to tell us.

Jerod Harper: 50:09

Yeah, it also, it also is the great impetus to go on mission, right to be on mission for for him, not only in around the world, but like next door, because those people also might think they're just doing fine, but they're not, and they need to hear the gospel. They need to believe just as much as the Buddhist in China does, just as much as the Muslim in Pakistan does. They all need to believe, and because their worship is not being accepted, so therefore, there's only one way for them to have acceptable worship that's done in spirit and in truth, and that's through telling them the

Gabe Davis: 50:42

gospel, right? Yeah, I think the two that kind of stick out to me for why this matters so much is, I think, and this is actually part of my whole passion behind us, even doing this podcast, is truly that I think right doctrine leads to right worship, you know, so like, if you don't know who God really is, if you don't know His Holiness as revealed in Scripture, His justice is revealed, and none of us perfectly understand the depth that. But like you know, to the degree that we have, we can understand and receive and embrace what God has revealed about Himself in His word that's going to affect our worship of Him. We, we are so, so, so prone, in part because we're made in the image of God. We're so prone to create, then things in our image, including God. So we're so prone to create, really an idolatrous version of God and worship that being instead instead of the God of the Bible. And so we have to continually repent and say, God, help me see you for who you are. Help me see you as you've revealed yourself in your word, not a figment of my imagination, not a projection of who I think you should be. Let me worship you for who you really are. And so I think part of this, for me, is about understanding something of who God actually is His character, His holiness, His justice, his mercy, his grace, his his his impetus toward us, you know, his his benevolence, all of that, his covenantal love. And when we see that, then that means that is actually how we worship in spirit and truth, because now we're actually worshiping Him for who He is, right? So right doctrine? Yes, right doctrine leads to right worship, right?

Riley Forrest: 52:26

Doxology, theology leads to doxology, right?

Gabe Davis: 52:29

So that's one thing. And then I think the other big one for me is even just as we think about like the necessity of Christ. I mean, we believe so strongly in the necessity of Christ, in faith alone, in Christ alone, we right. We declare and so this, if you have this view that God loves everyone the same in all the same ways, you know, and you have a view that all religions ultimately lead to God. You really end up diminishing the work of Christ. You end up having a very little Jesus and and I think that not only is that greatly offensive to Jesus, who who came, who lived, who's perfectly obedient, and who died, and then you basically say your work is meaningless. It was thanks, but it's not needed for everybody like that. How much more offensive Could you be, honestly, to Christ, and

Riley Forrest: 53:32

so did all the extra credit assignments, and you still just get an A, yeah, right,

Gabe Davis: 53:36

yeah, exactly, yeah or right. So everybody else yes and and rather, they, yeah, it's just a weird so that's, that's another one. And then I think a byproduct of that one is that when we don't think biblically about these things, actually think it really damages the assurance that we have of our salvation. Because I think part of how we enjoy assurance of salvation is that we count on the love of God, right? Because we know how much we still screw up, even as sinners. We know how how prone we are to disobey God. We know these things and so that in those moments when we're just aware of our sinfulness, it's really important that we understand what the love of God is like toward us, right? And so if what we think is, Well, God isn't loving at all, well then of course, we're not going to enjoy a whole lot of assurance. We're going to think like, he kicked this out the moment we screwed up. But even if we go like, God is just a super loving God toward everybody, I think because we're sitting with that cognitive, cognitive dissonance of like, well, he's super loving everybody, but he still allows people to go to hell, or still sends people to hell, or, you know, however we talk about that and and so we go, well, then it doesn't mean all that much that he loves me, because he could love me and still condemn me. So I don't feel a whole lot of assurance when I hear about God's love for his kids. His covenantal love, or his particular love, like, I don't feel a lot of assurance from that, but when you actually recognize No, no, the way that he loves those who are his kids, is a ever you know, an unending love, a Forever Love. It's a, it's a covenantal love that is sealed by the Spirit through the blood of Jesus, like it is a Forever Love, that that's the grounds for our assurance. So I think when we have too watered down, actually too broad of a view of the love of God, it does damage to our assurance also. Does that make sense? What I'm trying to get out with that? Yeah, anything else you guys want to talk about before we wrap this episode up?

Riley Forrest: 55:38

We never played the Pope.

Gabe Davis: 55:39

Oh, I never played the Pope, yeah? All right, we'll get there was a clip of Pope Leo, and had it all queued up, and we don't have to, don't have to play, yeah? But it was him disagreeing with everything we're saying here. So crazy. He's from Chicago. What does he know? You know? Just kidding, I don't know, Chicago, yeah, that's true, yeah. But we hope that this episode is helpful to you. If you haven't already, go check out that survey, and, you know, read through that a little bit, because here's how I think that could be helpful for you, even if you find yourself just going like what I can't believe that evangelicals think this stuff where it could be helpful, is start then to read up a little bit and go, Okay, this doesn't align with the biblical worldview. Why not? Let me understand this a little bit better, because maybe you're going to run into somebody. Because, again, this is talking about evangelicals. Maybe you're going to run into somebody in your community group. Maybe you're going to be on a team that you serve with somebody, maybe somebody maybe it's somebody at your co op, maybe some, you know, lots of different Christian kind of Speech and Debate Club, whatever your kind of thing is, or just generally, you know, in the park or whatever, you're going to be talking with somebody, and this kind of thing is going to come up. And so it's widespread enough in evangelicalism that making sure that you're well grounded biblically and how to think about these things, I think will help you be prepared for those conversations, if they come up with with people who are saying, I believe the Bible and I trust in Jesus. And so this isn't even, you know, this isn't apologetics with somebody who doesn't know Jesus. This is apologetic for the Bible that we say we believe. So knowing where to take them in Scripture, knowing how to help them think through those things. And I think it can also just kind of help us be a little more precise with our language. You know, is it true? Can we say God loves everyone unconditionally? Not quite, no, not really. He loves us on the particularly if we're talking about a saving love. He loves us on the condition of repentance and faith that is based on the work of Christ. That's the condition by which we are adopted. It's, it is a conditional love. And so being able to just have a little bit more clarity specificity about how we talk about these things will help us have, I think, better worship and better articulation of what Scripture says, So, there you go. I think we may do another episode on Ligonier state of theology. If there's one in

Riley Forrest: 58:07

there that you read through and you're like, you guys need to talk about this. Tell us That's right.

Gabe Davis: 58:12

That's right. Cool. All right. Thanks a lot, everybody. Till next time bye,