A Cut Above

In this episode, I sit down with Ky Wilson, a hairdressing entrepreneur. We discuss the evolution of Ky's career over the last 18 years. In this conversation, Ky shares his journey in the hairdressing industry, emphasising the importance of networking and seizing opportunities. He discusses his transition from a small-town hairdresser to working in London, the challenges he faced, and the innovative approaches he took to stand out in the industry. Ky also reflects on his experiences working with celebrities, the journey to freelancing, and the ongoing struggle for work-life balance, especially after becoming a father. His insights highlight the significance of personal growth, resilience, and the need for a supportive network in achieving success.

Takeaways

• Building relationships is crucial in the hairdressing industry.
• Problem-solving is a key skill in hairdressing.
• Ky's journey highlights the importance of adaptability and reinvention. 
• Innovative approaches can set you apart in the industry.
• Burnout can be a serious issue in high-pressure careers.
• Freelancing offers autonomy but comes with its own challenges.
• Building a community can enhance professional growth.

Ky Wilson
Website - https://www.kycut.co.uk
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kycutwilson
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kycutwilson
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kycut
YouTube - www.youtube.com/@KycutWilson

Keywords

Ky Wilson, hairdressing, recruitment, wellbeing, work-life balance, career journey, social media, relationships, problem solving, industry challenges, hairdressing, networking, London, freelancing, work-life balance, celebrity hairstylist, career growth, personal development, creative approaches, industry insights, sleep, performance, balance, health, freelance, community, collaboration, self-employment, holistic wellness, work-life balance

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Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:03 From Rock Star Dreams to Hairdressing
• 5:19 The Transition into Hairdressing
• 10:59 Navigating Stigmas in Hairdressing
• 13:21 Building Relationships in Hairdressing
• 17:50 The Learning Curve and Problem Solving
• 19:15 Passion and Career Reflections
• 21:35 Milestones and Opportunities in Hairdressing
• 25:41 Challenges of Working for Free
• 27:33 The Future of the Hairdressing Industry
• 28:01 Networking and Opportunities in Hairdressing
• 32:15 Transitioning to London: Challenges and Growth
• 36:03 Innovative Approaches in Hairdressing
• 40:36 Working with Celebrities: Experiences and Insights
• 45:14 The Journey to Freelancing and Self-Employment
• 49:20 Work-Life Balance and Personal Growth
• 56:02 The Impact of Sleep on Performance
• 59:19 Finding Balance in a Busy Life
• 1:02:34 Holistic Approaches to Health
• 1:06:15 Navigating the Freelance World
• 1:10:01 Building Community and Collaboration
• 1:15:43 The Journey of Self-Employment
• 1:20:05 This or That
• 1:21:11 Lisa's Question

Transcript

0:00

it's my office, so I work in recruitment. this space doubles up so it's a bit spin sawdust but it works you know. all it is. all you need right? Exactly yeah. So how's your garden? Well it is a salon isn't it? That build on that is quality from what seen on your Instagram. Jobsworth, season 3, episode 4, a cut above. Welcome to episode 4 of Jobsworth, season 3. This week's guest is salon owner, creative director, hairdressing educator and ambassador for some of the world's biggest professional hair care and styling brands, Kai Wilson. Now, if you're tired after that, listen to the rest of this episode and you might need to lie down. Kai really is a force of nature. After a short-lived but nevertheless successful start to his career in a band, at the age of 18 he walked into a well-known salon in a small, late district town where he grew up and ask for a job. And he's not stopped cutting hair since. We discuss his rapid progress in a competitive industry, the changes he's seen over his 18 year career, the importance of saying yes when presented with opportunities, and why sacrificing your time, even without pay, can still pay off. Kai has done almost all there is to do in the world of hairdressing, but he is showing absolutely no signs of slowing down. That comes at a cost. Last year Kai was hospitalized, which led to him having to drastically reconsider his approach to wellbeing and to his work-life balance. We discuss how he's finding the change of pace. You might be surprised by the answer. We also talk about the business he runs with his partner, Lauren, the secret to building a successful brand and the importance of not focusing on the numbers when it comes to social media. So without further ado, let me introduce you to quite honestly, one of the most prolific guests I've spoken to over three seasons of the podcast and an absolute gent to boot, Kai Wilson. Okay. So we always start with the same question. Season three is no different. When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be, I guess I wanted to be a rock star. That is generally what I wanted to be. I was heavily involved in music when I was younger. So that's kind of the path that I was taking before I got into hairdressing. Okay. How did that manifest itself? Like how far down the road did you go? What sort of age are we talking? Give us some context, these kind of visions of you being a rock star. It was well, was in my, I went to college. studied music at college. So was kind of till I was like 18. I carried on for a little bit longer, but at 18 I got a proper job. yeah, we had a band, we went on tour. It was around the UK, it was a three week tour near Christmas. We only like 17, 18. And yeah, we had a manager whose dad built a Sprinter van for us. So we all slept in that when we were on the road. That sounds amazing. Washing yourself with KFC wipes and sleeping in service stations. And we used to straighten our hair with like going to like Curry's or Comet, whichever had like a laptop and a plug socket so we could use it as a mirror. You're joking. Wow. It was good when you're that age, do you know? Yeah. And then yeah, then I used to manage bands. I was very entrepreneurial. merch was my thing, making the merch, selling the merch, like managing bands that we met on the road that I thought was really good. Cause we had all the contacts with all the all the gig promoters and stuff like that. it was interesting. good. Puts you in good stead. The best lesson that you get from it really is one is obviously working in a group, in a team. And two, it's like the confidence of public speaking. I mean, yeah, I'm trying to think what I was like at like 16, 17, 18. I had confidence, but no way am I going around doing, I couldn't have imagined that kind of lifestyle you were living. So yeah, the- the soft skills it gives you, ability, as you say, to work and collaborate with people, must set you off on such a good foundation for when you do, as you say, go and get a proper job. even just doing, you know, like pitching to companies now and stuff like that, like doing a presentation in front of like five people, that's probably more nerve wracking than doing a show in front of a thousand people. So I'm going probe into this a little more. What sort of, what was your genre? What was your music? We were, we were pretty heavy. I was like a bad singer, but also screamed as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that style of, yeah, I the bands that around now that were around then that we played with a couple of them were like, me the rise and enter Shakari, meet six. Like they were like that type of, yeah, that type of band, but it was great fun, like high energy. That's all. Do you do any of it now? I've, I've, I definitely, well, The answer to that question is no, but I play guitar a little bit at home. I'd love to get back into it. I'm just not very good. I'm an entertainer more than being technically great. A lot of people made successful careers from doing exactly that. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you go. Exactly. You only need a tambourine, so you're doing all right. Yeah, man. was great. We had a good time. Okay, so I tend to ask that question and then see if... or how that's kind of evolved into the career you're doing now. And you've already alluded to the fact there are some real transferable skills, some crossovers between life then, the skills you pick up and what you're doing now. Bridge the gap for me then between being in a band and then your journey into what you're doing as your profession now. Yeah. So I just, needed a job. My dad really wanted me to get into a trade. He's a pen and decorator. all rounder I guess. Where did you grow up, Kai, you don't mind me asking? a lot of people I speak to from Essex. I'm not picking that accent up. Yeah, I'm from the Lake District originally. Kendall in the Lake District, is near Scotland. I've been to the Lake District a couple of times, but that's, I would imagine, quite a remote area that you grew up in, was it? Yeah, it's still a town. There's still a good population and there's still a lot going on. But yeah, you're quickly in the hills. pretty depressing because it's grey, it's like, that's part of the beauty. The reason why it's so nice is because it does rain. And it's funny now that all my mates are like down on mountain bikers or, you know, they're proper into the hiking or running or like, that's like, it's just that like outdoors lifestyle. And you've just got to get out in the rain and do it. Got to embrace it. Yeah. There's no, there's no such thing as like a fair weather sports person or like you, you're not waiting for a nice day to get out on your bike. Cause the chances are. It might be nice in the morning pissing down rain in the afternoon. So many people love it up there as well because it's like escapism, isn't it? Do know like from, especially from now from like being in London for 15 years or whatever, you're like, you need it. Exactly that. Yeah. I mean, we'll go into like your journey south as well, but yeah. So sorry you were talking. You don't need to get you into a trade. Yeah. Ideally. And, I was, I was 18 at the time. I was applying for like electrician and plumbing jobs because they probably still are like the higher paid trade jobs. And it was something that my dad was like, you you're never going to not need this in life. And when I was going for all the meetings and interviews and stuff, no one would take me on because the government funding stopped when you were 18. So they would rather take on a 16 year old that was on tag, dressed in trackers. And I was turning up to these interviews in a suit with a clean driving license and it just was not going my way. And I was like, it gives me determination, but it pissed me off quite a bit. of counterintuitive, isn't it? You feel like you're giving yourself the best chance up by the book and then yeah, being turned away because of that. I just randomly walked into a hair salon. My mum basically suggested it. She said, I think you'd be really good at hairdressing. So I randomly walked into this local hairdresser's called Daniel Grey and it was a big size. It was a good company to go into. I asked to speak to the manager and I basically started on the Monday. after the interview. So, and it just kind of took off from there. There's a lot of familiarities within like what I do now and being on stage playing in the bands, you know, I do a lot of stage work. I've literally just got back from Sweden like last night doing a big, two big shows over there for companies that I work for. it's, yeah, like I said, it just gives you that confidence to do things like that. At 18 you've gone into hairdressers, basically asked for a job. They weren't advertising at that point, had the conversation, which again, I guess is there's a lot of 18 year olds that wouldn't have the confidence to go in and sort of knock on someone's door and say you're hiring at the moment in itself. So stuff like that. Like I never, at the time you never really think about it like that. was literally walking back from an interview with a plumbing company and I didn't get it. And I was like, I'm just going to go in and just went in and just said like, I've never even stepped into that salon before. you know? Like, I was predominantly going into barbershops to get my hair cut and And then, and then went in and they just said, you start on Monday. And it was good because they took a punt. The government funding was still the same in hairdressing. It was still an apprenticeship wage, still the same as what I would have been getting in the trade. they were really forward thinking and they knew that the older the person was, the more determined that they were to get the job done, like get the training done out the way because you don't want to be on that wage forever. It was like three pounds something like, you know, but I still living at home. So I could do that. Why are hairdressers and not barbers? If you've been getting your hair cut at barbers, what was it about hairdressers that kind of made you turn in there rather than the barbers where you had been getting your hair cut? I don't really know the answer to that question. You saw it. It might be the timing thing. I just knew about the salon. was like really, really well renowned. But the yeah, I don't really know the actual answer to that. guess it's just because you still do men's hair within that factor. So I guess it was like just not limiting myself. Yeah, cause I have a very limited understanding of the whole sector you work in. So I'm going to be learning a little bit. I I spoke to Dean from Mango, who I've, he cuts my hair now. Does he really? Okay, nice. Yeah. So I've known Dean, I said it in the episode, but I think I was 19 years old and just had a shitty haircut. I remember ringing up Big Yen at the time, which was a barber's in, know that it's changed name now. It's correct. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's changed name. Create. prefer Joe and Joey. It's a free plug Joe for you because I know Joe from school. But yeah, I was speaking to Dean and I got a little more insight into the industry and every time I go in, I'll have a chat with him and asking some questions and yeah, just trying to get a bit more insight into the mechanics of how it all works. So you've gone into this hairdressers, you've got your job at 18 years old. One thing I do want to ask, and I did ask this of Dean as well, as an 18 year old guy getting a job in a hairdressers, was it? I think it's naive to not suggest that there might've been a stigma around that. 100%. Yeah. So do you mind me asking a bit about that? What was your, what did your friendship group at that time think? Was everyone very supportive? Did you get a bit of a needling as I know potentially some of my mates would have done at that age as well. I know initially when my mum told my dad that I was going to be a hairdresser, he was like, no way. you know, like. Tradesman. Yeah. It was very different routes. And especially cause I was going to that trade beforehand. So. I don't know. I'm kind of quite lucky with my mates. don't know if it's because of how I like what I give off. They just didn't really say anything. I just kind of got them with it. Well, they did, but I just would have took it with a pinch of salt. know, want to like, literally I don't have any negative like qualms with anyone that I've met being a hairdresser. Like there is, and there's such an easy ending. Like basically when that question gets asked, I'm like, you work with 40 men on a building site. I work with 40 women that are all hot as man. do the math. I think, yeah, I wanted to address it because I just wonder if you'd experienced any negativity around that when you're doing that. Because I think again, my lived experience, I think you're right. You attract the right group of people around you. Hopefully when some people don't at 18, you're with the wrong group of people and then you grow out of that. But yeah, I'd like to think my group of mates at 18 wouldn't have given me a hard time too. And whether it sounds like it wouldn't have impacted you anyway. No, they were, they were loving it. Like they were getting cheap haircuts, like a lot of training. So, and then it was funny cause like the girls used to come around for like hair ups and stuff before a night out. Like I'll do the hair and like that would be our pre-session and the guys caught on on that. So they would come and then pay me to put product in their head, you know, like, and it was like, just because like the girls are around and it is, it was good. It's just such a social job, know, like, and that was basically that paid my beer money like when I went out. And it seems to come out. Like you exude it innately that you've got the people skills and you enjoy that interaction with people as well. Is that right? Cause I guess you've been doing it for a long time. don't know. Do you mind me asking how old you are? No, I'm 35. 35. Okay. you've been doing it 17 coming up to 18 years. Do you feel like it's still that natural ability, this intrinsic driving you to want to socialise, to want to connect with people? Yeah, that's it. Like I've done every element in like an aspect in hairdressing and the the thing that it always comes back to is the relationship that you build, whether that's with your client or whether that's with a photographer or whether that's with a brand. Like it's all about like them relationships that you build along the way more than the end job, like more than the end goal. So that's like, yeah, for sure. think if you can tap into something like that and, and focus on the connection that you're making with your clients or when you're up on stage, educating as well, like you do, it's another string to your bow. I think If it's a natural thing that you're good at and you can tap into that as a skillset, then yeah, it's a great foundation to build your career from. So that's really good to hear. Okay. So 17, 18 years on, we're now where we are now. I'll take it back a little bit. So job at 18, I'm imagining you're getting a lot of jobs thrown at you that are the ones that I was associated with that kind of level of role, or are you doing training straight away? So you're not. Sweeping hair dresser floors, although you're doing that as well. Daniel Gray, where I trained, the foundation was amazing. So straight away they got you doing hair. The education was in-house, so you didn't have to go to college. They basically came to us to sign all the stuff to get your qualification and stuff. the quicker that you're on the shop floor for them doing things and making their money, the better for everyone. you start off doing... the other color is colors while you're helping them. then, what the transition from that was, we were doing some training and it came to like men's hairdressing. And I was really like cocky and I was like, I can do this. And it's basically because I've just been blacking my mates that I could do it at home. And then literally the week after they put me on the, once the training had been done, they were like, yeah, like he's ready to go doing men's. So they put me on the shop floor on a Saturday doing men's hair. And then you build it up. it's a way of you building your confidence up, but also building your clientele. So rather than just going straight on the shop floor full time and then being quiet most of the time until you build it up, they give you days and then you build it up that way until you're fully booked. So yeah, my, my education was like unreal. Like we had, you know, we had a solid foundation from the locals and from the late district, but we also had people from the cities from London, Brighton, like Manchester that had traveled and are working in that company now. So you had a big like band of experience to, And was there a point as well, sorry to take it back to that sort of junction between barbering and hairdressing as well, when they were saying, we're going to get you cutting men's hair. Because are you exclusively cutting women's hair now? No, everything. You're doing, right, okay, you're men's as well. So there's never a point where you wanted to go down one junction or the other. It was like you didn't want to limit yourself as you said earlier on. Yeah. It was more the fact that I found it. more natural to do men's hair. that was it. So because I excelled in it a little bit more, it was always at the forefront for quite a long time. But yeah, no, it's never been, I wanted to do one or the other. And it's mad because there's always this debate. It's funny that you've picked up on it because there's that same debate within the industry. Like whether it's barbering and hairdressing, it's just hair. you know, like whoever it's on. The way, and again, this is me talking from a position of having no experience whatsoever, but I'm now trying to put myself in that mindset. The styles that people have in their haircut in there, guess the divide between sort of stereotypically male and female haircuts, a lot of people kind of going closer to that line now anyway, aren't they? Yeah. In some ways, especially maybe in what a type of style is you're cutting at some point. So even the price point now, I don't have. like gender pricing, I'll have long and short, so I'll have long hair and short hair. And that's how I do it. you know like so, yeah. Inclusive to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. So your education, it sounds like you started to pick up those skills and learn quickly. It sounded like they had trust in you, but that had to have been based on your ability as a hairdresser as well. It being able to cut hair. I think it's like going back to the confidence thing as well, like just backing yourself. That's all it comes down to. I qualified within a year. Yeah. And I was on the shop floor and I wasn't overly confident as in my head. And I would like tell my boss like stuff. But as long as you've got a strong support team around you, like especially colouring, was a hair colouring was the thing that like took me ages to get, you know, like, and even now it's more down to muscle memory than knowing the science behind it. I just know it works. I've done it. But there is so, again, my understanding through lot of conversations with my other half, there's a lot of variables when it comes to colour. Yeah. So that there is a science behind it. But like you say, if you do it enough times, the hope is that you just, there's a magic that you're creating as you go through. And it's also like things go wrong all the time and you just don't know because you don't know what's on the hair prior or the condition, et cetera, like that. And then it's knowing how to fix it is the main thing. That's the biggest, again, takeaway from hairdressing is problem solving. And that's all it is. It's so interesting because you're really good at like... disseminating the transferable skills out of it. Because I never would have said problem solving. But as we're getting through it, I'm like, yeah, it makes complete sense if you kind of break it all down. every hair type and head shape is different. know, like there's categories, but it's different on that individual. And that's when like hairdressing becomes really subjective, whether you're good or not. You get taught a haircut. And if someone does the same haircut on the individual that's in front of them at that moment in time, it's going to be different and it might not suit them. So it's all the little nuances that you do afterwards, bespoke it and make it look cool or whatever it is and write for that individual. Again, in speaking with you, it feels like you still love it. Yeah. Like really love it. And I don't know if you have to tow the line and say you love it because it's still what you're doing, you genuinely do still love it. Throughout my career, I've definitely gone through stages of just being like, what am I doing? Do I even enjoy it anymore? I remember it would probably be coming up 10 years. That was like the bigger, I just met my girlfriend. So that's why I know the timeframe of that. But there's times when you just like, what am I doing? this what I really want to do forever? But I guess that's like part of it. You go high, you go low, you go high, you go low. At the minute I'm on an absolute buzz. so you've got me at a good time. It's so good to see as well though. Cause I think that's a rite of passage if you've been doing anything for long enough. Through the conversations I've had through my own lived experience as well, it's very rare to find someone that's just gone on a plateau or an upward trajectory enjoying something and loving it even more because it's human nature to wonder and to go sort of through this introspection sometimes and is there something else I could be doing? Would I be more engaged by something else? But, it's good. guess when you're younger, you've got like naivety and vulnerability and you just absolutely go in hell for leather for it. And when you get to the destination that you think that you meant to be at, you realize it's like not anything that you thought it was going to be like. So I guess I hit that at very young stage of my career. I had salons, I'd done all the big shows around the world. I'd done celebrities, you know, I'd done educating, I'd worked for brands. I'd basically done everything in, I completed air dressing essentially. And then it's like, now what do I do? Do I just want to be doing this for the next 30 years? It's like, no. So it's then working out. I'm super lucky like with the brands and stuff that I've built that you I can sort of pick and choose the route that I want to go down, especially this last year, it's definitely changed for me, which is good at the minute. Yeah. Like I said, it's really, it's really positive to hear and you can see that you are passionate about it and you love it too. And I speak to a lot of people that are going through a period of finding themselves in what they're doing and really asking those quite serious questions, especially if you've been doing something for a long time. prospect of thinking about trying something new is pretty daunting. So if you can kind of reinvigorate this love for what you're doing, reframe it, do something different, come it from a different perspective. I get excited about that though, like starting something new. That's my favourite thing to do. So even within hairdressing, starting another element of it and starting something new with that. It's like the thing that drives me the most. Yeah. Okay. I'm to go back to the Lake District and back to this hairdressers again. So where's the next milestone come? So you start cutting hair, you start building your experience, your confidence. starts to increase as your skills and experience increases as well. Where does the opportunity come next? Because I guess you could have, like a lot of people might have done, they might have stayed in that shop for however many years. what changes? Where do we go from there? I know I'm asking you to rewind the clip a little bit now. It's pretty, I can remember it pretty good. like, I guess the first stages was the team that were around me really supported the other side of hairdressing that isn't just being on the shop floor and cutting hair to consumers. So the photo shoots, the stage work. was one of the girls, Verity, she was from London and she was pushing a lot for me to go to London. She knew that I would love it down there. then I got a scholarship with L'Oreal. They did a two year scholarship program. So you have to audition for it. I didn't get it the first year. Learned, went back the next year, nailed it. And you travel the UK doing shows with them and you get in like this amazing experience and you're around, you know, think they're 100 hairdressers. I think they take on 50 hairdressers from around the UK. You go into like Barcelona, Madrid, and you've been educated out there. And it was just, you can't help but be like taken into this enthusiasm of it, know, like the passion behind it. then yeah, and then social media was pretty new, like as we know it today. So Instagram had only just came about when I was starting. So I feel like people now have it a lot easier in some respects for it. the fact that they've got anyone that they are inspired by at their fingertips to reach out, where we actually used to go through agents and try and find email addresses and word of mouth is obviously the biggest thing, which I still think is the most successful way to build anything now, whether it's a client base or your network of creatives. So that was about it. So you start then reaching out to people. And then I was doing fashion weeks and then you're just on that sort of circuit, but you're doing it for free a lot of the time. My dad could never believe it. be like, what, you're going all the way to Paris and you're not getting paid for it. That's out of your pocket. Do they expense any of that you're paying to go and do those trips? No, because I was employed at the time. you were just kind of just funding it. And then I would stay in hostels and they'd be like, what size dorm do you want? I'd be like, the biggest one. And then I'd just put business cards out and just cut people's hair. They were all traveling. And just do it dirt cheap, but that would basically give me some sort of money. And then I remember I did a show. for a brand. So imagine working for a big brand and not getting any money for it. And then the hairstylist at the time, Anthony Ternary, he took me on for more shows on that season. And I remember the first assistant and he was like, just invoice the agency. So then I went back and I'm like, what do I put? So I'm like asking my mate and he was like... I just put like 80 quid or something at a show. So I was like, sweet, like it's better than what I was getting, you know? And then I do it and obviously now I know that that is not the way that you do it. And they probably got a leg up on me because I only put 80 quid in, you know what mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's good value. I would argue. Yeah. Especially when sometimes you start at three in the morning and the show's at six and or whatever it is and you got a prep and. But do you think having gone through that experience, I would. Do you feel like people are still going through that experience that getting into the industry now? That's not changed much. That's a problem. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, cause that responsibility, it sounds like it has to fall on the brands. 100%. Yeah. But they will, pretty hard, right? Because what happens is the brand will get a salon to do something. I've done, I assisted on a Coldplay video when I was 18. So I'm still back in the likes. It was Charlie Brown. So I went down and did it for free. So the team weren't actually getting paid to do that show that were there. I'm really good mates with one of the guys now called Luke Pluckrose. He's like a phenomenal hairdresser, like travelling the world, like doing amazing stuff. So they weren't getting paid, which is like absolutely fine, but they were kind of getting paid because they were getting paid from their salon. Okay. Understood. So at least their time was covered in some way, shape or form. So the brand will get you in like, and essentially like the individual would be getting paid cause they're employed. But then if you're doing it as a freelancer, you're not getting paid by that. you might get some products as a little token gesture, but that's kind of the problem. And and people in every industry will always undercut. And again, this should, there shouldn't be that. There should be a sort of like tiering system, you know, like where this is what it is and we all should be on that playing field. therefore obviously you can charge more, but there should be a base level. Cause some people would be like, well, I want to do that experience. So do you know what? I'm going to do it for free, which is exactly what I did building my career. And like, you wouldn't change it because you wouldn't be where I am now without doing it. But at the same time, like, it'd be really good if we could help the next generation. And this is where I, in hearing you speak about it, that's why I wanted to ask, has it changed? What platform does anyone have to try and impact or effect change for the people going through it now as well? There's been a bit of a campaign recently with a, I've got like an agent to do, like all the campaigns, celebrities, movies, stuff like that. Joe Mills is called and he's been a big advocate of not working for free, not doing editorial for free. Magazine work generally is you're not going to get paid for it. You might get 50 quid to do a front cover of Vogue. you know what mean? imagine that. From the outside, I'm thinking if you've got, do you get a credit? Do you get credited with that? What does that mean? Because I would imagine if you're credited with that, that's like a payday. The only thing that you really get out of it is a catalogue of work. to then get your next job that's going to pay. you have to put a year's worth of working to get that. Yeah, I've done it. And I'm like, nah, I ain't doing that. But I get completely what you're saying in a way. It's helped shape your ethic. It's shaped the contacts you've made. It's helped like your confident guy anyway, but it's helped you build upon that confidence. I used to look at it like this was my university. Like, I'm not in debt. I'm not going to get in debt from doing it. This is, I'm going to be paying to do it, but like it's kind of my education, but that's trying to put a positive spin on something that shouldn't be like that in the first place. And I get the feeling you're quite an optimistic person. Is that fair to say? So yeah. So that's your view. Having done it, having done your time, having earned your scars, gone through that and you're out the other side of it where you are earning a living from it. Well, there'll be many people that have been really good at doing that type of work, but won't. won't entertain it and they will then never get them opportunities to do it. Whereas there'll be people that might not be as good and will entertain doing stuff like that for free. And they'll become higher up in the pecking order, even though they're not as talented. you know like it's just a- It's that connection thing, isn't it? Like you say, it's if you meet people, if you network the talent, you put side by side against cutting skills, styling skills. If you've got a stronger network, there's chances are that you're to be going up. a couple of paces beyond someone else that might actually be by definition a better hairdresser. From that and meeting everyone, doing all the shows and shoots and building that up, basically then I had the opportunity to move to London and then took that with both hands. How old were you then? I think I was like 21. Okay. So at that point you're only a few years into this. Maybe 22. You're not a veteran by any stretch are I think I was like in between, I think I was maybe turning 22 at the time, moved down and worked in London. again, like my vision, because of how good I had it with the first sell on, like I could do any opportunity I wanted to do at the drop of a hat, as long as I then rescheduled them clients and made that money back. So I'd have to come and work late nights or a late early morning, sorry, or a Sunday. And as long as the books were balanced, then I could do the opportunity. Whereas When I then first moved to London, that wasn't necessarily the case because I didn't have them books to balance because I was unknown. So it was going from that whole metaphor of being a big fish to a small fish, you know? And then it just didn't really sit with me. So first of all, I left pretty after a year. I made sure I did a year because I was always like, what's this going to look like on my CV? Which I've never... have a lot of conversations with people about this, you know? In your job, I've never had to give my CV to anyone. I've just said, and then I walked into another job, was, with a song called person read it at the time. And that's because I assisted the owners on fashion week and that's how I met. again, network again, isn't Yeah. Off the street. Asti Vadim was there and, and he, he showed, he was luckily in because he only worked one day in the salon and it was on the, on a Thursday. I remember, remember it. I literally left and went in and then, he gave me a tour, had a meeting the next week and I started to get started again. You ever thought about career and recruitment? Cause your confidence would go a long way, know. You don't need to answer that question. can have it on a side or side of you. Yeah, we'll have a chat. It's amazing. I'm going to go, I want to just ask a question. Your dad that had this kind of vision, say vision, had an idea that you were going go into a trade. He's now seen you a few years into your career and then your mom and dad have had to see you then go to London. What were their views on it? I just asked. because we're both parents and I'm just imagining my sons even making that decision. It's more, for me, it's more leaving home and going to a big city somewhere else. But what were they like? I think they were ready for it. They probably wanted me to go out of the house. Have you got siblings at all? Yeah. My older sister, I've got two sisters, so the middle one, I'm the youngest, Jay, she moved to America as well. like, it kind of, but they'd already experienced it with everyone going to uni and all that. I didn't, just stayed at home a little bit longer and then. That emptiness syndrome, they'd kind of gone through it with your older, older siblings and they know like, the car is going at some point. They love it. It got to a time where they just probably want their own space. I mean, fair enough. Yeah. I'm just trying. Super supportive. know? That's good. Yeah. Super supportive. So second job. No CV. It's good to have one. That's my, I have to give that advice on the podcast. Everyone should have a CV. Keep your CV updated, whatever you need to do. But then the, was it London in general that was the difference in terms of how these places were operating or had you just got to a point where the kind of skills, the ideas, the creativity you had maybe weren't going to be able to be housed in that traditional kind of format, do you think? No, not at all. No. I was, I was. again, going up the ladder in the Lake District very quickly. know, opportunities are getting thrown my way. And I even, even the meeting that I had to tell my boss at the time that I was going to be leaving, he, we had that meeting in place because he was going to offer me something more. right. So you threw that curve ball in at the time. it was really mutual. You know, he was like, yeah, you totally, totally are ready for it. But the reason why I went to London and nowhere else is purely because of a guy called Matt Woolley who I met. who I met on a competition who was my mentor. So that's why I then went and worked for him. So it just happened that London was where he was. He has other salons around the country, but that was kind of where I wanted to be where he was. Yeah. And have you been in the Southeast ever since? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what was your experience like in London? How long were you working there? Cause we're speaking now in Leicester, Southampton, and we both- live down the same road. is how incestuous the network is around here. But yeah, so you're a little outside now, but what was your experience like in London? if you don't mind bridging the gap again, what kind of led you to come out here? Yeah, London's like, it's kind of funny, you know, I've worked a hell of a lot. So, and everything that I did was, was geared around that. Even the socialising elements was, I was cutting someone's hair at some point of the evening, you know, if I was going out. London could be pretty lonely as well, especially when you've not. got a massive network. So that's why colleagues are really important. And even though I knew a lot of people, it's not, there wasn't like a lot of people that you would ring up if you really needed help. Like it's like life, that's just life, isn't it? But you think when you're surrounded by all this like madness that it's going to be like that. Basically what brought me to Essex was I met my girlfriend that's now, she's called Lauren. I met her in my last like job before I went freelance. I was self-employed with this company. They have kind of created the beast as such, when I went in and asked for a job, there wasn't any. They said you can start, but you're on a 30 % commission. That was it, which is extremely low. No base? No base. You're just commission driven only? Yeah. it was a three month cycle. And basically I built a clientele up. They offered me an employment job, which the commission wasn't as good, but I would have had a base. And I said, no, like you've created this and... this is what I want. they give me a higher commission and then I stayed for two years and got every single possible opportunity that you can want within hairdressing. I used to do pop-up salons and I used to do them in burger joints and pizza bars and used to set up living rooms and cardboard kitchens as sets and you'd like sit on a beer barrel to get your hair cut and smoke will come out the oven because it'll have a trigger on it. And it was like really immersive in a really shit way, but it was great. Like on a Wednesday at Crate Brewery in Hackney, They would like, it was like 50p pints for the staff. So I'd make sure I'd do it on a Wednesday. So then it was like getting that in. then I used to do it with a guy called Burger Bear. He has literally the best burgers that I've ever tasted in the world. he had a space that was basically, had a little set of decks and a disco ball. And I used to just, it was permanently there. He just let me leave it there for one day a week. I used to go straight after work, finish with the other players, to go home. in a cab, get all my cardboard stuff in another cab and then go and unload it all with the chairs and everything. And then go and set up for a six o'clock start. And I'd have like some clients that wanted to book and I was like, look, you just be there at six and I'll get you in. Or I can make sure you are the first in, but you've got, I put like bidding wars out. Yeah. There's no turning up at half eight and then hoping for the best. Well, they still would. And then that grew because I basically got, I got other people involved like working. they were on a commission base, like in around like 60%. I'd get 40. And it was like rapid haircuts and we're just like banging them out and having a great time. Sounds amazing. And yet again, from my perspective, completely original as well. I'd to be doing that. Were you inspired by that? Did you see anyone else around you doing bits like that? Or did you then see a trend where people were inspired maybe by, I'm saying inspired and not plagiarising, but you know. When I first moved to London, actually there was a I think it was called Vibe Bar on Brickline. I went and met, I don't even think I was moving, I think I was moving to London and I went and met a mate who I met with the L'Oreal ID Artist Program that I got the scholarship with when I was in the Lake District. we've, and I'm like good, was a groomsman, someone's wedding. like going back to the network and the connections that you make with people is like awesome. And I remember they were cutting hair outside on a Sunday at the thing. So, but they were just had like a mirror and it like, and then I, the main person that I got inspired by since I've started was a guy called Johnny Cupcakes. And he's a massive like Ted Talker, like keynote speaker, like he inspires, he's sued pretty much every single like company in the world because they've ripped his designs off. And he makes t-shirts, but he'll have in his t-shirts, in his shop, sorry, he'll have a bakery and like he's got this wall that when you order the oven will open, like it's full of ovens and one oven will open and your t-shirt will come out with a hand and like. It's like smoke and light. Do you know, it's just like an experience. Yeah. Immersive. there's loads to talk about him. Like I could do a whole episode. Honestly, that sounds amazing. This is great. And on the back of this, I'm going be writing all these names down that you're mentioning. Cause yeah, I think it's so good to kind of expose yourself to all these bits of inspiration that you can take on and do bits from too. But just like going back to like the pop-ups and stuff after two years of working for this company, kind of, I don't know. I don't know what it was. I remember I was doing a client and I just had this feeling and I literally went down and spoke to my boss and I left without a job. it was like, it was just super impulsive, but it was like, well, if you're essentially, said to him that I'd rather be doing this than the experiences that you've given me. And I wanted to voice that because I didn't want it to get to a place where either one of us resented each other because I had a lot of respect. have a lot of respect for them. And that was it. And then I just left. And then I remember like the next day I was cutting hair in Vicky Park, beers. Like my classes just turn up and I was just like drinking lards and like cutting air and making money out of it. And then got a couple of warehouses and but yeah, met my girlfriend at the time at the person read she was working on reception for a little bit. And then, and then, yeah, and then she lived, she's an Essex girl. So slowly but surely we've moved further out. Bam, bang. Like she's from like Raynham, like Elm Park. And then we went to Giddyupark, like Elm insta. yeah. Family around there. Brentwood. And then we wanted to buy a house and like Westcliffe was the postcode really that we could afford. And then further out from London, get ironically, it becomes a little more affordable. But the commute didn't seem that bad at the time. I would always be like, I can't just have one way of getting into London because like if I'm doing a big job, I need to be able to gain. So there's like two things like we've got cell phone, we've got the C to C and then there's always driving and there's always a cab. So I had four. technically four ways to get into any place. Like obviously one's cost more than others, but I just needed that reliability of basically getting in. yeah, this and we're stoked. We've been in here five years and like absolutely. Down Wellington Avenue for five years. Seriously. Cause I feel like I've only seen you for the last couple. It's weird, isn't it? Like when you imagine like. Lockdown was like most of that. That's a very good point actually. it's a couple of years in. But that's what's really annoying now. Like the fact that. and I know more people down the street and I'm like, knew them then, you know. I only realised the other day, I'm not going to name everyone that lives down our road, but we've got like a real pocket of entrepreneurs, business owners, creatives down there. Like nine, I can say nine productions, Emily from nine productions. because we had Bex and Amy on as well and they were talking about Emily and it's just madness to think that just in this little condensed, I did the second season all in and around Lee. I should have done it on Wellington Avenue. Going closer to home. Exactly. You can come and record it in my studio. There you go. Yeah, I'll have to do it. But that's the quick version of like what got me here, God, yeah. I can imagine there's loads of stories along the way. I mean, I have to ask just because from a... I think a common interest, anyone listening, you mentioned you've worked with celebrities as well. The opportunities that you were getting given, where do you rate those opportunities? So the opportunity to do a celebrity's hair in whatever capacity, again, I'm new to this, so you're going to have to tell me maybe some of the individual experiences you had, but where does that rate in terms of like... If you say you're completing hairdressing, is working with celebrities, is that part of it? you think? Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. I'd say it's an element that most people would want to be doing. There's an aspiration to try and do that. Yeah. 100%. Can you name drop any? Yeah. Like I'm just not about that. No, I'm still going to ask you to do it though. That's the thing. There doesn't have to be any ego attached to it. I know. The thing is like, it's more about the job. Like what's the job? Is it going to become a long-term thing? Like, you just doing it for that one opportunity? Because like at the start, again, it's like, you're doing it for experience. Do know, like, so do I want to do it for that? Now, mainly for me, I'm like, how much am I going to get paid to do that? is it worth my time of being away from my family to be away for four days or not? Like, I'm not doing it just for credit. I'm not doing it just for an experience. Like, I've had that. So now for me, it's like, is the pay good? Yeah. And then Is it going to be a recurring and they're going to become my client? Yeah. Because like, then you get more work out of it. Yeah. So that's kind of where, where I'm at. Like you used to do a lot with bands and I used to love cutting out with like bands and stuff. But unfortunately, like the music industry is very last minute and it's also doesn't pay that good. And, and I would never just do it for the sake of doing it because they're whoever, whoever they are. Like it was more like, am I going to build that relationship up with them? Are we going to become mates? Do you know? Like, I never used to like, still don't like take pictures of, you know, like there's a lot of hairdressers out there and people in the industry that will take pictures with the people that they're working with. like, I'd rather it just be a candid shot and they're working like behind the scenes or cause they're just like everyone else. Right. I mean, that's good. Yeah. I mean, you put me in my place there, Kai, cause I was going to carry on asking for names, but I think you're right. And I think again, it probably shows why you've been in and around that space for so long. Cause you only have longevity if you are working at that level or working with well-known high profile people, if you're not going to take the piss and you're not going to start leveraging that. lot of people do. And also like most celebrities or high status, they probably don't care. But I'd rather that, I just personally would rather that happen as natural as it can and as organic as it can. The last campaign I did was for Diet Coke. So the new face of Diet Coke, you'll see very shortly, got announced yesterday. we did the campaign for that in London. That was like, I don't know, six weeks ago or something. But all that type of work now comes through my agent. So John Mills Agency. So they get the work. They book me, trust me. that a new way do you think of people engaging with opportunities now as well going to an agent? It's definitely not. No, it's been around forever. you know, again, like being represented is something that most hairdressers in that in that realm will want to do. have to put, I've been super lucky because even though I've got a lot of work, I haven't got your typical portfolio that I would have to go and present. I was just really lucky that Joe took me on and again, understood my capabilities and like where I can take it and all, the trust it's a lot of the time with stuff like that, it's about matching personalities as well. So your ability is one, but the personalities between you and another person is, vital. You're in, you're with them a lot of the time. You're with them when they're most vulnerable, you know, like they might be nervous or, and you've got that one-on-one time, but also having a hairstylist or a makeup artist or a clothes stylist involved in the moments where it's like dead space before they're about to perform or whatever they're doing is actually really good because it distracts them. I know a lot of bands used to get me to go and like tidy their hair up as a distraction before they went on stage. Do you know like They never really needed me there, it was like- psychology of it. Again, it's an aspect that I never really considered when you're doing that. Yeah. So you've finished that job in London. You've got this feeling, this sense. Have there been a lead up to that? The buildup, I guess, was like, it's just in my DNA, like that drive and determination. And also like, I just wanted to be my own boss. You know, like, so like from that transition, I set up a freelancing destination for hair styling. So hadn't- really been done in the UK to the level that I was doing it. It had been done in salons that were helping mums out and stuff like that on a very low level. But I brought it to the mass basically and made it cool, I guess. And now it's huge. yeah, part of it kicks myself because I didn't leverage it from the start. I had people that wanted to invest, they wanted to go global, didn't want to like... And that's like, that's one thing in my life that I'm like, should I have done that? Cause now there's, and even a new one opened up like last year. It's pretty, I did it 10 years ago. It's pretty fresh and amazing concepts are same, like the same as all the others that are coming out now bar. It's just got like a podcast room in there. And yeah, there's like, there's a new concept that's come out in hairdressing where they've basically created a content salon. So it's essentially for brands to come and hire and use to create content and stuff like that. But I also did that 10 years ago. So my salon was neutral as like brand neutral and everything. So brands can come in and film there. We had photo studios as well, so they could come and hire them. So I also did it, but I just didn't name it. I didn't limit that this is the only thing. Cause we also used to do gigs in there. used to do yoga, super clubs, like in these like massive warehouse in West Ham, which is awesome. It's just mad, like the ingenuity there to kind of be pushing those ideas and have the confidence to just run with it and back yourself. don't know where that comes It's inspiring. Yeah, I mean, it's inspiring to hear. I'm thinking I'm a couple of years older than you and I have ideas, but the follow through isn't great. It's actually backing yourself to go, come on, let's go. it there. We're doing it right now. Yeah, that's a good point. like do a podcast is like you are doing, consistency is absolutely key. And that's the thing that wins every time. And it's the thing that most people don't do. So like, you're already, you are doing it, but you, I've got loads of ideas that are written down and they're just in the drawer, do you know, like ready for a rainy day and they're just, it's like, all right, that's cool. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't happen naturally, even though like you put these things in motion, but there still has to be momentum behind it. If it doesn't happen, then you're not going to really do it. It's not going to be hard along the way and there's still going to be knockbacks and all that. But like that's the biggest, biggest thing, the consistency of it all. You're right. I think that's what I learned. fairly early on from doing the podcast. I'm someone that can become quite obsessed with the success of something quite quickly. So you've released three episodes of the podcast in season one, and I start looking at the numbers and you start becoming disillusioned with your investing time. It costs money to get these episodes produced, all this stuff. And this is a passion project for me. And someone told me very early on, just stop looking at the numbers. churn the episodes out. And by churn, mean, each one of them are prepped for, each one of them is well produced. The equipment we've got is good. All of this stuff, you have to get the numbers done. so I'll just take one episode at a time, keep building it. And who knows? It might, we might be a hundred episodes down the line and I have to enjoy the process. And I do enjoy the process. I enjoy sitting across and having conversations with people. that's the, that's the main thing, isn't it? Yeah, has to be. Don't think about the end goal. It's all about the destination. It's all about the journey. That's the cliche. I feel like I've spoken lot about that over three seasons, but it is right. It's a really good point. Okay. You seem like someone that maybe would have trouble defining what enough is. Is that a fair statement? Yeah. So going on a limb to say that, I do. Because I think I might have hit a previous definition of enough. few years back and then the mountain just becomes bigger. Like the next peak comes through the clouds and then you're starting to build for that as well. That changed for me when I became a dad, a little more. I had to temper some of the aspirations I had, not to say that I didn't want the same things anymore, but had to be a bit more realistic about how I split my time. We talk about work-life balance a lot on this podcast too. Has your definition of enough changed or would you have a challenge if I said, what's enough for you? Can you even define it? No. No. No. That's it. It's all it needs sometimes, isn't it? It's such a succinct answer to a quite a succinct question. Yeah. No, nothing's ever good enough, unfortunately, in my world, which is a real thing that I have to work on a lot. Especially when I'm trying to do it. I always try and be in control of everything. That's why I try and learn everything how to do it. Yeah. I'm starting to have more fun with it, I guess. Yeah. I have to reframe it a lot. I've got two kids, six and three. And they made me reframe it because my work-life balance was completely off kilter. That's why I left my old job. That's why I started up on my own, which sounds completely counterintuitive because when you're starting your business, your work-life balance is completely fucked, for want of a better word. But if I zoom out now over five years, it's better. Like I spend more time with my kids than I ever would have done if I'd stayed in a big agency doing it for someone else. But you mentioned before the podcast that you were ill last year. that... anything to do with the work life balance being off balance. Yeah, 100%. So like when my first child was born, my daughter, Allie, she's six now. She's the star of your viral vacuum hack for the ponytail. There we go. She loves it. I saw that the other day. She was on FaceTime to me a couple of days ago and I was showing her the stage that I was going to be on. It was a good one. And my mate come up and he was like, Hey, I've seen you on YouTube. You're famous. And her face was like beaming. But yeah, so when she was born, it's funny because I took two weeks paternity off even though was freelance and she was late. So she was born on the Friday and I went back to work on the Monday when I didn't need to, you know, like just did. I'd opened a new salon up at the time. And yeah, it was like I went the opposite way. I went like I was drinking every night. I was like working all the time, every hour. It was very rare that I was off. Trying to prioritize like if I did booking plans with friends and family that I would actually see it through a lot of the time in the past I'd cancel it because I got a job in and I would privatise that more than anything else. So that definitely happened. But yeah, when I got ill last year, was like, it was a bit of a, I was burning out a lot. All my own fault, you know, like heavily drinking when I was socialising. Didn't drink at home, but it was like pure typical Brit binge drinking. But then scenarios, a lot more regularly because I was doing a lot more sociable things and I was working away a lot, so you're drinking a lot and like even when you're on your own like when you're away you'd go out then you'd meet people and then I'd try and get up and go to the gym which I'd do and you'd think that that would be like productive but it wasn't it was kind of productive and then I'd come home and I'd burn out my missus was just getting sick of it it was happening like three four times a year and it happened a big time and I funny enough I'd already stopped drinking at this point So I'd stopped drinking alcohol on the 1st of May, which is my birthday. And this happened on like the 5th of June, I think it was. And I just made that up. It might have been at the end of June. essentially I was hospitalised through a week of burnout. And then I got rushed into hospital and they did ECGs and thought I was having a heart attack. I've always unfortunately thought that that's what was going to happen to me. I don't do hard drugs, never have. And they were adamant that that was the reason. and then they put it down to stress. I'm like, I'm not stressed. You know, like, I just didn't feel it. Obviously I was. And you start looking into things a lot more like lifestyle. So drink was a thing that I caught straight away. It actually, what happened last year actually happened again three weeks ago, but no burnout. And it only lasted two days and it happened because I had a massage done. So it released all the bad toxins. It must've been underlying. And then it went back to my heart. I've got a thing called myopericiditis. So it's like inflammation. I've got scarring on there. And I read the science pretty quick, got an ambulance, ended up in Southend Hospital. So I knew it wasn't as serious because last time I got taken to Basildon. But in this last year, I've totally reevaluated a lot of things and tried to work on a lot of things. like diet is, in all honesty, like everything that I've come out of this. So I got told they stressed to put me in there. I then went and saw Laura Hart at the Highcliff Clinic. She'd done a colonic on me. Yeah. She's coming on actually. Is she? Amazing. There she There's your plug, She's a weird, like your friend's doing it as well, do you know what mean? But great. Whatever. She's done it and she saw some signs that my gut was like not good. So then I went to the Annandale Clinic and Gail at the Annandale Clinic does these, I think it's called Vega readings. So it's a bit hippie-dippie, but they put a current around your body and some food on a scale and measure you out of a hundred. I've heard about this. Yeah. And do you know what? come out, so I was veggie. before that, because I was going to the gym a lot with Andy Yates from Cult and Ed was my PT from Rome. It was just gnome dropping in from season two as well. You tied it all together, I appreciate it. I used to eat meat with Andy like as little sneak, but it was because my body was craving it. So I was like, just have it now and again, and I hate labels on anything. I'm like, I'll just do what I want. know, that's kind of what that's me. Yeah. I'm happy when I do unique, original. mean, you need just being a bit of a twat. But yeah. And then society, meat again, heavy, like going straight into like chicken every day, three meals a day. I couldn't eat red meat. So was on about 12 ingredients. could eat just really hard when you're working away. I remember one time I didn't eat anything all day because no one would cater for it in the airports. They wouldn't just give me a chicken breast and sweet potato, which is generally what I could eat. They would So then I'd be like, well, I'll have the chicken and bacon salad, but literally getting two bits of chicken and that's all I'd eat. So it was like, quite hard, but I did it for three months, felt amazing. Then I didn't do it for nine months and I'm still conscious more so of what I'm eating. But I think this time around, sleep has been the thing that got me, me back in hospital. Lack of sleep. And when I don't sleep and I feel shit, I'll do more of the things that you think would help you. intense exercise, which doesn't in the long run. You need that energy don't you, which you recoup from sleep. So the reason why I got the massage in the first place is because I've been waking up and not being able to move, like my legs and my knees have been like, which I'm like 35, I'm like, what is going on? It's a sign of inflammation, it's a sign of myoparic aditis, but I didn't know that because last time that wasn't a sign of it. So that's why I got the massage and felt absolutely incredible afterwards. Like it was amazing, felt this rush of energy when she cracked my neck and like it was banging. I woke up the next day and I was like down and out. 24 hours to like, to go to hospital basically. And then I was like, but the next day I was fine. It was so weird because last time it was like months recovery. Right. And, but yeah, sleep was the biggest things. I hadn't been sleeping and then I'd like go and swim a mile. My missus is like, why do you swim a mile? I'm like, I used to swim when I was a kid. like I go and she's like, yeah, but why? I was like, well, I Googled how fast a 35 year old just swim a mile. And I wanted to be at that time, which was 40 minutes and I did it. I felt good. And I started swimming loads because it was like low impact, but I guess that's me in a nutshell. It's like go absolute turbo and everything. Don't just swim 10 lengths instead of swimming 65. know what I Which is a catch 22, isn't it? Blessing and a curse, whatever you want to call it, double edged sword, all the cliches. yeah, taking a measured approach is sometimes the way to have longevity in doing anything. But at same time, that drive, that ambition, that kind of bit between the teeth that you very clearly got has served you very well in other aspects, hasn't it? What I'm discovering now is like, obviously everyone's different, aren't they? So some, some bodies will react really good to that, but mine definitely doesn't because of the adrenaline and the coaches all and all of that is just probably absolutely out of whack. And I've lived in an adrenaline state, I would say for like, because I've experienced not living like that this year, like I would say for like a lot of my life. And now when I experience the feeling that I used to feel pretty much all of the time, then I'm like, maybe that's what stresses. But I don't know, since I was the last time I've come out, sleep on a grounding mat, got weighted blanket, eye masks, CBD oil. I'm really trying hard to get a routine back in, but I find it extremely hard. Especially when I work away and I'm in a hotel on my own, it's just... just don't sleep. So then I just edit pictures and videos. It's habit, isn't it? I guess getting into habit is having kids as well. I've been going through, like my six year old didn't sleep through until he was two. My three year old was only just started sleeping through the night. That completely fucks you up. That to me was probably the sort of platform that led to a lot of other things because you're trying to kid yourself in a way that I should be having a different balance of life at this moment in time. So you'd be sleep deprived. You get to the time you knew you should have gone to bed. And you're looking at, I haven't had an evening. I need to sit down with my partner. you'd sacrifice sleep again to have that time, which would just compound itself and lead to different things. But it also seems in your case, Kai, that you've got that work ethic, that internal drive. That also means actually it's not a sacrifice for you to sit up and do some editing because actually you're seeing that as a- I enjoy it. Yeah. You enjoy it. It's positive thing. I don't know what I don't know. I've always had a really bad relationship with sleep. Like I'll like not have any for ages and then I'll have one good night's sleep or two nights to sleep. I'm like, sweet. And then I go to bed early and then I wake up at two in the morning, one in the morning. I've just got to get up, get up. Like it's horrendous. And then you booked for the next day, you know? I see it. It's all the balance, isn't it? All the balance. But yeah, there's a lot of people helping me at the minute. People that I don't really know online have reached out. They're doing some like doing some mad stuff. I've been doing like sound healing over the telephone and like breath work. And even when I went to see Ed, when I hadn't been back to the gym for ages and I was like, right, I want to start coming back. And he was like, yeah, but you're not going to be coming back. Like I'll do you a plan. But then four days that you were doing in the gym, three of them might be doing breath work or going for a walk or having an ice bath. Like it needs to be different for you because I've seen it over the last two years. It doesn't work. Yeah, it's a definition of insanity, isn't it? If you're doing the same thing and expecting different results. again, Ed, you're getting a plug on this episode of podcast too, but Ed's view of that kind of holistic wellness, which I don't even know if you'd like that word, but I think that's why I work with Ed. It's not just what you do in the gym. He's taking time to look at the external stuff too. That's great. And do you feel like this year has been, could you embrace, could you imagine life going on at this? kind of pace now, the work that you've done in the last, Kyle's pulling the face everyone for anyone. Obviously no one can see this. What has your experience been? Do you think you can keep going with it? I have slowed down. I reckon everyone around me will say I haven't. Right. This next two months is going to be a test because it is probably the busiest I've ever been. In an 18 year, 17, 18 year career. But I also feel more capable than ever because, but only, only because I've been ill again. If I hadn't been my, and my attitude towards this would have been a bit different, but because I've been ill again, I don't know what it is. Something's, something's clicked and I'm like, I don't know if the last time I was a bit apprehensive to do it, cause I didn't want to do anything that raised my heart, right? Like cold showers or like sea swimming or whatever it was doing the show work because then my heart would hurt. then And then I was like, is it just my head that's making this happen? Or is it actually still going on in my body and it's just not recovered yet? Or what happens generally with what I've got is people recover and then they go back to full fitness and going to cardiac arrest. That's generally what happens. There's lots of links to vaccines about it and that's a big topic on it. I didn't have them, so it kind of throws a curve ball with everyone's thing. But that's the main thing that it's been linked to. by the Western medicine. But yeah, I don't know if I've slowed down. I don't like slowing down. don't like doing breath work. I don't like doing yoga. I've got mates that help me do it and I do it because I know it's right. I don't do it because like I love it. I guess that's it. You should be honest about it because there's a lot of people that buy into it and then start to almost trick themselves and that can help trick yourself that you like it. if you can do it even though you don't like it, but you can realise there's a benefit to it, then that's good. It will turn into a habit. Again, it's nice to hear if you've gone through that experience, anything that impacts your health, like the way you're working plus that health condition as well, something needed to change. 100%. Yeah, it still does. I'm still fine tuning it. I'm back on a mad diet. This girl reached out to me on Instagram. She'd done some sound healing in the salon in London years ago. She basically started asking me some questions and she had an autoimmune system disease and Western medicine kind of gave up on her. She fixed it through holistic stuff. Like shadowing a doctor and who was both, it wasn't just like a naturopath. It was natural path. was like she was mixing the both together. So Western and that and finding the root cause, which I guess is kind of what I want to find. I've still not found it yet. I don't know. I'm making stuff up. I'm just not making it up. I'm putting the pieces of the puzzle together. But yeah, I'm like, I'll get there. You're the work from the sound. Yeah, I'm doing the work. Yeah. feel like the weekend that I've just had, basically flew into Gothenburg, a 13 hour shift prepping the models. Then you're doing the stage work. Then there was a gala that we went to that night. And I then got up really early and flew to Stockholm, did prep for the models again. Then the show the next day. And you're going out every night till like two, three in the morning. And then you travel back, got back last night, straight into a meeting this morning from like, I've got a company I work for called EVO and I'm like brand ambassador for them. they had a meeting for them. Cause I've got a show coming up on the weekend for them. So it was like, and then straight into this it's. Yeah. Well, thank you for making the time as well because your schedule was mad. I booked that day. My missus was like, why, why do you do this? Why? I'm like, yeah, but it's local. It'll be good. And it's fun. Like we're just chatting. This is kind of my therapy. You're asking me stuff about my life that a therapist generally would be asking. So that's kind of my therapy. I've said that to a few people over the last few sessions and it does seem to be cathartic in some way where you get to share an experience. Cause there's not many times in life where you can, unless you're paying for a therapist. I've done that a lot. you know, to sit down and be able to talk about, and also listen back to this, hopefully in however many weeks and celebrate. the kind of journey you've been on. I think it's a really positive thing. podcast you go on to. I've seen you've done another couple as well. I watched one recently that you did and I know you've covered some similar ground too, but yeah, think- It's all different though. This is really interesting because you know nothing about really about like my industry, whereas I normally do it with the industry as the topic. know? like this is like a more of a general, generalized- Well, this is it. The whole point of the podcast is to hopefully- have conversations with people that are doing something different from your nine to five, your typical nine to five. And that's not to cast judgment on people that are working that way, but it's to inspire people that maybe don't want to work that way anymore to have the confidence that they can do it. yeah, and everyone that I've spoken to without question has been a really good case study for why you should at least give it a go. And it's not as easy as that. that's quite a a bit of advice, just do it. hopefully- need to end this on a high then because mine at the minute is looking pretty shit. He got hospitalized, we don't want to do that. Well look, to be fair, we're going to carry on. We've got a couple more questions and then we've got the closing tradition as well. But I think it's real. It's a real example. I've suffered from burnout. I wasn't hospitalized by it, but I thought I'd suffered from burnout earlier on in my career. And when I actually suffered from it, it was debilitating. puts you in bed for like two weeks. It's a physical reaction to what is essentially a mental problem. Like I could not move for a week and it was one of the scariest times of my life. And so actually talking about it and then sharing how you're then doing the work to overcome it and try to ensure it doesn't happen again. Cause this is, this is when you're a driven person, that is a catch 22. The drive is great. It's what gets you out of bed in the morning. It's what urges you and drives you to succeed. But that comes at a cost. So you need to have those boundaries. It sounds like you're doing it. systems in place as well, you know, like I've done that big, big stint. And then now I'm off for four days before I go off again. And then like, it's like that for the next two months. It's like every, I mean, like America, Canada, Paris, Oslo, like yeah, just in Sweden. I was in Dublin, Ireland. Like it's a lot to do. you know? So you have to put the systems in place. So when you do have your rest time, you can, but then obviously, you know, you've got You got life, got kids, my missus. You've got to support all of that. really, kind of like today, like yesterday when I got back, for instance, all I wanted to do was unpack and then just sit in my bed with no one around me. Because the energy that you are giving to like, the show was like 250 people, one of them, it's like quite a small intimate show, but you've got to entertain. then you're going out and you're like all day, you're with models and you're trying to be happy. so I'm like, I need some. recharge, but then I just basically sit and edit because it's a distraction and really that's when I should meditate. I'm like, no, I need to get this edit done because if I don't, I'm backlogging. like, right. I've got two questions and I feel like we should mention, Lauren, because you mentioned the salon that you've got, we talked about before recording. We talked about the purpose built studio you've got in your back garden. Essentially that was built for Lauren. Yeah. So it's a studio on the bottom of our garden. was built, she's a hairdresser as well. Yeah. Trying to juggle her career and kids at the same and me at the same time. So it's something that's having and that came about basically when I come out of hospital, I was like, it was kind of over what I had. I had two salons, in London, one in the Lake District. So I was like, I'm just over it. I don't want to commute like that all the time. I commute a lot, but I don't want to be going into London like three, four times a week as well as doing all the other stuff. I need them days to be at home. and still work, but like just in a different way. So essentially it was built for Lauren to give her a really cool space. And I was looking at properties around here, but I didn't also want to fund someone else's pocket and put 50 grand into someone else's property. found my dream location, which would have been amazing. was at Lee Cliff buildings on in Lee, obviously it's like a got a yoga factory in there. Yeah. That is a great location. Yeah. It was amazing. The size was incredible. affordability was kind of there. Like if I really wanted it, I would have invested 50 grand on it and I would have been tied to that place. instead I spent the money on this studio and I use it more, I would say, than Lauren does now. So I'd still do the old client in there. Again, it's a really good way of networking with local businesses. really like to be around the people I like, the high energy, because it drives you to be better. And also if you need anything in the in the future, like you can call on different people and everyone, I don't know, that seems to have their own business just have that sort of, they have their network and it's just like a pyramid scheme, isn't it? just goes. you're like, but- Talked a lot about collaboration and community, especially around this neck of the woods that we're all based in. it is amazing. Like I wouldn't have this podcast without the people that sacrifice their time and feel happy talking and then suggesting that their friends come on it as well. So I think it's great. And that was part of the focus on season two was talking about- why here specifically tends to foster that. And it's only because I live around here that I'm sort of putting that magnifying glass on it. And I'm sure it exists in different places, but I definitely think when you're working for yourself, there is this feeling that you know how hard it is. So to give someone else an introduction or a foot up or whatever that is. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. And like, it's so good to be local and like you're saying, like building the community that from within, like, especially now we definitely need it. Do you know like, from that. But yeah, so we built a studio. It's an amazing, amazing little space and we're both working there sometimes and I'll do a lot of filming for brands in there. I film a lot of content for brands and which is a weird job. Like I'm like, how is that a job? How'd you find that? Cause your videos and the confidence level you have when you're delivering them from what it seems outside looking in, it's fantastic. Your delivery is great. How do you How do you find it? Are you someone, because I saw some of the content you were sharing while you were away as well. Doing that, so I think you referenced one of them where you said you nearly left your phone outside the lift. There's a door's closing. Thinking about stuff like that, do you find it hard to switch off from how can I turn this into a bit of content? I this conversation with Amy and Bex too. then if you don't, you're like, sort of like, I should have got that. And then like, I kind of did it this weekend. If I'm honest, like the first show that we did, I was really on it with filming. We might have a videographer come out and they let us down like last minute, like 10 minutes before we're going on stage, he didn't turn up. So then you're like scrambling for everyone else's content, but I made sure I got it all before I left. And then I put it together when I was traveling back and I took all the pictures and you know, we can make something fun from it. And it's just a really good way of us promoting the next one. But realistically, we needed a better quality version than what we were just doing. I had all my cameras, but it's easier just to get people to do on the phone for what that video was about. Yeah, yeah. Understood. And then the next one I did a bit, but then I was like, saw everyone else doing it. So was like, I'll just get it off them. And then I didn't. And then now I'm trying to get it back when realistically I should have edited it today. And it's now delayed because I didn't get that content, you know, like, and. you were talking about that the start of your career, you mentioned that social media wasn't, it was just emerging really the platforms that we know now. MySpace was a thing, you know, like that was it. That was like Kaispace. That's what it's called. It definitely wasn't somewhere that everyone was promoting what they did and building these followings, building these personal brands. Do think you can get ahead in the industry now without building a following on social media? No. Is that a good or a bad thing in your opinion? I it's good because you've got a following. I don't think it's down to the following. It's not about the numbers. I think you just need it there. think if you have a following, you are more marketable. It's like a musician. Musicians might be really talented and then they will get picked up and then churned through the system and it will go out. But even for them, it's different now. They have to have the package already finished and then someone comes in and just markets that. But it's a finished article that they're getting a lot of the time. It's rare that it's the other way around where they get someone that's underdeveloped with raw talent and then make them into the product that they are now. Like every artist that's out there that's popular is because they've like, like the new ones that are coming out, it's because they've done amazing on TikTok. or social media and they're funny with it or whatever their angle is. It's very rare that there's some raw talent that's gone through the labels and done it the traditional manner, but good point. Good and bad because they can do it independently. They don't have to go through these big corporate systems. They can fund it themselves and do it from their following that they've created. So it's kind of like that with hairdressing. There's a lot of educators out there that have hundreds of thousands of followers getting millions of views and a they're in control. Right. Like they then can dictate what they want rather than working for a brand and working open and the brand control you where if it's the other way around, it's like it's on your terms, which is so much better. Yeah. The numbers are important to a certain element, but it's not the bail on end all because you can grow from an organic following an organic audience, which mine I would say is cause it's like on the lower end of my peers. I've got like 17,000 for instance on Instagram, but then I'm like, don't really focus on TikTok. I've only just started doing it on YouTube because there's not a lot of professional hairdressers on there. Going back to before my mate's done it and he, did that video with, with all of it, like you said, the vacuum one and I was like, no one's watched it. He was like, mate, you need to do a hundred of them to get the numbers. Like to look, he's making bank like every That's the consistency, isn't it? We were talking about that. All about that with everything. It's the same muscle memory building it. If you want to be a good hairdresser, consistency of cutting heads, know, like by my way. But yeah, but the studio is at the bottom of our garden. Going back to that, we built it for good intent and it's working for us really well. Sounds like you got the return on investment from it. Yeah. How much it's used. yeah. Like not just housing lawnmower. No, I don't even have a lawnmower. Yeah. It's got a shed on it. It's got a bathroom down there, we, yeah, we've definitely got the return back on it and it's, it looks good. The good thing about doing what we've done is it's added value onto our property. going back to like funding someone else's pocket all the time, I feel like there's a real like injustice of that, like injustice of that all the time. Like I find it really hard to do that. like, I'm working so much for that. And I'm like, I ain't getting any of that, you know, which is the way of the world. And that's generally the drive for most people to go. self-imported or freelance or build their own company, you know, rather than also having that control or they've got a better vision than what they think it is. But that's kind of where we're at with it. That's the common thread, I think, for a lot of people that have gone, as you say, let's just label it as working for themselves is that they've got a vision that they didn't feel they were able to carry out or get to whilst working for someone else. And that's their motivation. And I love it. Like I'm from a family of people that work for themselves. Like I was the last... for myself earlier on in my career, used to be a PT ironically, speaking about Ed all the time, but yeah, I did that for about seven years, fell out of love with it, fell into recruitment, did that for seven years weirdly. And then yeah, started on my own five years ago now, but it's because I couldn't stand, not working for people. It was just, I couldn't stand the environment that I was needing to work in to be classified as success. And then I wanted to do it my own way and that was it. Yeah. So it kind of follows suit with with the way most people move into that self-employed space, freelance space. It's been amazing. I've been freelance, self-employed for like 10 years now. Just under 10 years, which is amazing. And to be able to support a family and there's something, I'm well proud of that. That's my biggest accomplishment out of everything that I've done. I've got the lifestyle that most people really would want. Obviously I've had hiccups in between, but I've got the freedom and flexibility that that's what everyone's craving. going to the life work balance, I've always tried to find this amazing thing that everyone talks about that they're trying to find as well. And it just isn't there. Sometimes you might have to work fucking hard for months, years, and other times you might not. And that is the balance. But now I'm able to choose when I switch it on and switch it off. think that's the most important thing. Yeah. Like you say, you know that for the next couple of months, you've got a pretty hectic diary. You know, you can be doing a lot of traveling. You're to be putting the hours in, but maybe that allows you for the next month after that to zoom out a bit and take that time for yourself. Exactly that. Do you know, December is like really busy for hairdressers. I go the opposite way because I wasn't from London. A lot of my clients would leave around December time and stuff like that. So it's something that I've got the opposite. I like slow down rather than going hell for leather and then everyone burning out at Christmas. already like, do the old client, whatever, but I'm already like, I'm not going to do seven days a week and bust myself up just because Christmas is there. Like- I, from working for myself, if you zoom into a week, my work-life balance is shocking. Like I'm worse off than I ever was working for someone else. You look over a month or three month period, I've got, I'm in such a better position. It just means sometimes I'm sacrificing the odd weekend or doing a 15, 16 hour day. But I'm doing that for a period of time so I can then take my foot off the gas a little bit. That's the intention anyway. But yeah, I have to be honest, over five years, my work-life balance is 10 times better than it could have ever been working for someone else. It's weird because this podcast isn't all about trying to convince people to work for themselves, but so many of the conversations I have, are people that have afforded themselves autonomy, the freedom to work the way they want to work. And 99 % of the time that's going to be build something yourself or take that leap to set something up yourself. It's hard to imagine a world where that can happen where you are employed by someone unless you've got an incredibly flexible boss, leadership team, whatever that is. It's hard as well. In my industry, what's hard about it is people just go freelance because they're not getting paid enough and stuff like that. I also know it from the other side of it where like bosses can't afford, like people that employ people can't afford to give them more money because business rates and like the person that we all should be annoyed about because there's a real divide between employment and freelance within our industry. but yeah, the people, should be pissed off with the government more than anything like, I'm completely on board. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not sort of hating on, on corporations or bosses or organisations at all, because yeah, I've also seen it. People have budgets, people have you know, the lines they have to balance. it is, it's it's a challenging conversation, but I'm conscious of time. we're going to move onto the, I've got, I've introduced a game this season. So we're to do that and then we're going to do the closing question. I it's not that exciting. it works for audio. Right. Okay. So the game is this or that. So there's 10 questions, two options, so as quickly as possible. Some of these I'm going to be embarrassed to say because these are well out of my comfort zone because I've tried to make them hairdressing specific. Okay. Which is potentially cringe-worthy. Okay. We're going give it a go. Right. This or that? Number one, cutting or styling? Styling. Number two, client consultations or backstage at a fashion shoot? Clients. Three, scissor cut or high tech tools? Scissor. Four, blow dry finish or air dry look? Air dried. Five, Henry Hoover or cordless vacuum? Henry. It was a hemming. I knew it. That's why I needed it in there. Six, behind the camera or in front of it? In the middle. In the middle. Come on, get off the fence. It's a tough one. I'm going to go with in the middle. I'm going to leave it there. Number seven, on stage or in the salon? On stage. Number eight, when it comes to video, one and done or do it till it's perfect? Do it till it's perfect. Number nine, viral trends or timeless techniques? Timeless. Number 10, embrace the gray or gray away? Embrace. Thank you for saying that because I am very great. it. Kai, we've got one closing tradition on the podcast and if you've listened to any of them before, so the closing question is always from my mum. Yeah, perfect. So we're keeping it for season three. I've talked about getting rid of Lisa. Right, this one's for you Lisa. Right, so I'm going to play it down the phone to you because she actually leaves me a voice note. I never listen to them so I can only apologize. We'll see what she says. Hello Kai, there's so many questions I could ask you. But what is the number one best thing that anyone can eat or vitamins they can take for the condition of their hair? Thank you. Wondering what way that was going to go. To be honest, when she's talking about eating. The main thing is protein. when hair generally, basically hair and nails are your first thing that get taken out of your body when your body's ill, essentially. So it's the first thing that will go. It's the first thing that you'll notice. There's a lot of other stuff that do that. A lot of people try and attack it like topically. And for me, it's all about resetting your gut and finding that out. So there's not one size fits all with that question. I would 100 % get yourself to the Annandale Clinic with Gail. it proper changed my life that did. So I would go there and find out what's right for that individual and sort of it's all about rebalancing your gut, making sure that that's good to do it. But protein is the biggest thing. And if you're going to go topically, it'll be like Rosemary is like the best natural pathway to like hair growth. Brilliant. Hi, thank you very much for filming that. you go, Mum. Yeah. Hope you enjoyed the answer to that one. Kai, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. We've run over slightly as well. But yeah, I hope to see more of you as well because we do live down the same road. It seems silly that I might have seen you twice. It's crazy, isn't it? So yeah, let's go and get a coffee at Kult. 100%. Yeah. Thank you so much. Cheers, man. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there. If you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. You can follow Jobsworth on Instagram where you'll get teasers for upcoming episodes, some behind the scenes videos and the occasional bit of career inspiration. 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