The Food Lover's Guide To Fertility

In this episode, I sit down with Whitney Lodge, a naturopathic nutritional therapist and yoga teacher, who shares her journey from a stable career in law to pursuing her passion for nutrition and health. Whitney talks about her journey into specialising in fertility nutrition and the holistic approaches she employs in her practice to promote health and wellness. In this conversation, Whitney also discusses the complexities of fertility challenges, emphasising the importance of understanding root causes and the role of nutrition and lifestyle in enhancing fertility. Whitney also highlights the limitations of the current healthcare system, particularly in relation to IVF, and advocates for a more holistic approach to fertility treatment.

Takeaways

• Whitney emphasises the importance of education and continuous learning.
• She believes in empowering women to take control of their reproductive health.
• Finding purpose in work is crucial for mental health.
• Surrounding yourself with knowledgeable people can inspire growth.
• Failure can be reframed as a learning opportunity.
• Finding purpose in work is essential for fulfillment.
• Nutrition for pregnancy is often overlooked.
• Healthy pregnancies lead to healthier children.
• Giving oneself permission to prioritise self-care is vital. Couples often seek help after feeling let down by medical systems.
• Identifying root causes of fertility issues is crucial.
• Nutrition and lifestyle significantly impact fertility and future generations.
• The healthcare system often lacks the tools to support fertility effectively.
• Fertility challenges are on the rise globally due to various factors.
• Personalised care is vital for effective fertility treatment.

Whitney Sophia Nutrition

Website - https://www.whitneysophia.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/whitneysophianutrition/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/whitneysophianutrition/
Contact - nutrition@whitneysophia.co.uk

Keywords

Whitney Lodge, nutrition, fertility, career transition, personal growth, health, motherhood, naturopathy, work-life balance, self-discovery, nutrition, insurance, failure, purpose, motherhood, fertility, boundaries, holistic health, wellness, career, fertility, nutrition, lifestyle, healthcare, gut health, IVF, preconception, functional medicine, epigenetics, stress management.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:59 Career Path: From Law to Nutrition
• 6:11 The Impact of Personal Experiences on Career Choices
• 8:53 Transitioning to a New Career: Challenges and Growth
• 12:09 Finding Purpose in Work and Parenting
• 15:05 The Role of Education and Self-Discovery
• 17:55 Building a Career in Nutrition: The Journey Begins
• 20:47 Combining Corporate Experience with Passion
• 23:54 The Catalyst for Change: Personal Health Journey
• 27:04 Establishing a New Career: From Learning to Earning
• 30:41 The Intersection of Insurance and Nutrition
• 34:32 Embracing Failure and Learning from Experience
• 35:59 Finding Purpose in Work and Life
• 38:43 Navigating Motherhood and Career Choices
• 42:58 Specializing in Fertility Nutrition
• 49:29 The Importance of Boundaries in Work and Life
• 51:50 Holistic Approaches to Health and Wellness
• 1:01:28 Understanding Fertility Challenges
• 1:12:11 The Role of Nutrition and Lifestyle in Fertility
• 1:17:13 Navigating the Healthcare System for Fertility
• 1:20:27 Balancing Work and Family Life
• 1:27:28 Improving Gut Health for Overall Wellbeing

Transcript

0:00

First off, you've introduced me to some of the strangest words I've ever seen. I've been doing a little bit research, obviously, enough to at least ask some informed questions, maybe. What a load of weird, incredibly long words. I'm not going to try and pronounce them, but it's been interesting for me anyway, just to get into it. Welcome to episode five of Jobsworth season three. This week I sit down with naturopathic nutritional therapist and yoga teacher, Lodge. Whitney specializes in helping women optimize their health, particularly when it comes to fertility, drawing on years of experience and training. Her personal journey, including a high risk pregnancy with identical twins, has shaped her passion for supporting women in investigating the root causes of infertility and preparing for healthy pregnancies. We discuss Whitney's experience leaving a stable job in London to set up her own business, the reality of juggling motherhood with working for yourself, and whether she's always practiced what she preaches when it comes to health and balance. We also talk about her approach to fertility, from the role of nutrition and lifestyle to the use of supplements, her commitment to learning, and how her work empowers women to take control of their reproductive health. So without further ado, let me introduce you to the brilliant and insightful Whitney Lodge. So Whitney, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? I had no idea, be honest. I would say I wasn't one of these people that, you know, from a young age, some people just know they want to go in a certain direction or they've got a certain passion. I was just surrounded by good work ethic. And I wasn't surrounded by anybody that went to university really. I didn't have any family members that were doctors or lawyers. Yeah, I've always been surrounded by practical people and people kind of just get out, grafters to be honest. When I left school, just knew I didn't want to become like a doctor or a lawyer that I needed to go to university for. I actually wasn't attracted to A levels because I was like, that would just lead me in a more lost direction. bit different if you need a degree for something, but there wasn't anything that I was like, yeah, I need a degree, really. And I think I was at the cusp of that generational thing where you could still go and get a job, in the city, without a degree and get on. I think it's very different now. think to open the doors now, they kind of look at your CV, no degree, maybe shut the door. Obviously it depends on what you're doing. think the advice from my parents was just, if you don't really know what you want to do, just go and earn money. So that's basically what I did. I went to Southend College. I did legal secretary. because I was like, you know, the typical, I really want to, I just do a bit of PA, kind of get half decent money for it. And you can go in whatever industry really. I've talked about this a lot with the careers guidance and counselling and most people are channeled, especially women, channeled down a certain route. So you've got, and it's usually PA. This when I was at school. So don't know what the age difference is between me and you. I'm a few years older than you, but when I was at school and college, they basically, if you were If you're female, go PA, hairdressing, something like that. And if you're a guy, was banking, finance, go to London and get in the office. Or construction. That's it. Yeah. Or some of the trades as well. Yeah. So, so just around the corner. Yeah, just around the corner. And I studied legal secretary, BTEC basically to put you in a good position to get a job as a PA up city. And that was, that was the goal. So it wasn't necessarily saying you were deeply passionate about it. just if I get that, I can get a job and I can get some money coming in. Basically, yeah, was like earn good money. if you're, mean, I'm quite spiritual and into sort of astrology and stuff, but this might make no sense to you whatsoever. But I'm a Taurus Virgo, which is very basically pragmatic, organised, structured. So that kind of work actually really suits my DNA and personality quite well. And I'm quite an academic person. Like I loved school. I was the weirdo that loved coursework. I love stationary. I didn't have the greatest experience in terms of friends at school sometimes. We all have, I don't know, bullied or whatever, but I just still loved school. I loved learning. Very curious mind. I kind of like black and white subjects. So I feel like that kind of career at the time was black and white. Be good at it and you'll sort of, know, you'll excel kind of thing. I guess the measures of success are pretty clear for you, aren't they? It's not nuanced at all. yeah, do well. You go up, do badly, you get fired. basically. And I think that maybe be driven by obviously parents and their work ethic as well. My mom was very much, she'll just, if she needed to make money, she'll just go out and make it somehow. My dad's always run his own businesses, been very sort of like strong minded with, know, entrepreneurship or whatever it was. He'd run these up for your own companies. So yeah, think I was just, and I was surrounded by quite a lot of women, strong women. So my nan. and thought she had three sisters and my mum's got three sisters. Wow. So very female dominated. Yeah, that's lot of arts, great arts. the world kind of like situation. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of just did the courses at Southend and then I was actually headhunted by one of the big law firms. I think they had like a bit of an agreement, I guess, with... one of the law companies in London that would come down after we'd finished or was near the end of our studies. Based on sort of like... basically based. And I was very academic driven and grade driven. So I was like, got to get distinction. Like there's no question I will, know, sort of very... Yeah, I guess it's got black and white for me. Can I ask just two questions? I'm going to interject and we'll go back. So we'll bookmark where you are. But in my... experience, it's rare for someone to say they're academic and enjoy that, be driven by that. And then not necessarily want to not be attracted to go down the college route, not be attracted to go down the university route at that stage as well. is there any particular reason? Was it just a case of you like the study, you like learning, but you weren't, I hate using the word passion, but we're going to talk about this anyway, but you weren't passionate enough about any one. particular thing to throw your energy into it. interestingly at school, studied, so GCSEs I had, I did dance. So in some ways it was quite creative, but I kind of lost that when I became a teenager and got a boyfriend and I loved, I danced a lot. Right. And then I kind of just lost that track because I just. It's not a priority anymore, is a priority. I've got my first boyfriend. You know, started having fun with my friends and you know, that independence and that sort of, well, what do I want go dancing for? can go to wherever with my mates and enjoy myself. But on the whole, think that's, I think that probably applies to the majority of people. You kind of get attracted to life experience, don't you? And this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm a teenager. Yeah. And then I also interestingly studied child development. Okay. So I've always been I guess I've always had like a nurture side to me. I'm like the oldest, pretty much oldest. I've got like five brothers and sisters. So yeah, my half sisters, they were a bit younger than me. So I would always babysit and I fully enjoyed all of that. Like anyone that would know around my age, if they did study child development, you got given this baby over the weekend that you basically had to keep alive. So there was that weird elements of me. where I am now that have come through. I was going to say that's very much attached to what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And very much where my, what I'm doing now and sort of like my personality, I guess, or how I've evolved. Yeah, so I ended up getting headhunted, got a job at a really big law firm. But as I was at college, I did do a work experience at another good law firm, one day a week. So I was doing a couple of days at college and then every Friday, I'd go to the city. And yeah, was basically like travel paid, but that was about it. And you know, got the Krispy Kreme donuts on a Friday afternoon as a perk kind of thing, you know, but that about it. that really taught me like what it meant to work. The work ethic I feel has changed a little bit. We're talking generationally. Generationally, yeah. I feel like you just, you just have to get stuff on your CV and prove your worth kind of thing. Yeah. So that was that. So I drifted into law. I ended up working at that law firm for five years. interestingly, what you were saying to me before, maybe we started recording about getting that instinct of, just really dread going to work now. I started to get that. Can you put that down to something? I guess it was a while ago now. I'm very relationship driven and I'm a very loyal person. I loved law. I learnt so much from it, but it's a very intense environment. And typically the law firms I ended up working in. So my first one, the work experience was Clifford Chance, this massive global company. Yeah, I've heard of them. Yeah. Second company that I worked in for five years or so was Herbert Smith. I honestly got on with the majority of people there I adored. I had some really amazing associates I worked for. I mean, I really learned work ethic at that company. It was kind of like if you stepped out the door a minute early, they would look at you like where you're going sort of thing. Cause lawyers are, I'm very much being stereotypical here, but They are addicted to, you know, working them long hours and yeah. The boss I had at the time, he was very much like, if you're not educated at Oxford and Cambridge, then it's kind of like, not who are you, but it's just the way he spoke to people, the way he went about his business. It wasn't just me, but I had managed to get a job quite young, working for quite a senior partner. So I was like, you know, just roll with it. It's just part of it. But I was like, I feel like I've done my duty. need to get out. This is not. doesn't suit my personality quite right. But then the recession hit. Right. So couldn't really go anywhere. When was this? 2008 or 2009, I think. Yeah, because I started there in 2005. So I was ready to leave a lot sooner than I left. But I was like, you need to be strategic about this. And I am the type of person, I don't really give up. Quite stubborn. It's a great trait. I'm like, you just need to be persistent. it's to your own detriment though, isn't it? Half the time. Sometimes it can be. Sometimes it can be. Yeah. So, yeah, I ended up planning my exit, I guess. Okay. was a of a strategy behind it. I was like, okay, I'm going to look for a new job and the time is right. I will be still PAEA because I don't mind the role. I just don't like the business anymore. And you were fine going into London. You were in London, I would imagine, London five days a week. Yeah, days a week. Yeah, back in the day. Yeah. So five days a week, I'm one of them people I feel that will turn something into a positive if I can. So it would be like, I could use that time to read a book or learn something new or whatever. So I just use the commuting time. And I think as well, because that's all I ever did, I never drove to work. I never worked locally, literally from college to the city job. didn't know any different. You're conditioned, aren't you? Conditioned, While I was at college, actually, I did have a job at RBS, so like the bank. So Monday, Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturday mornings I work there. But that's when I first started to learn my value of money. And then also my stepdad really influenced me with learning the value of money. So he would, he set me up with my first phone bill for instance, he you need to pay this, you need to have enough money to pay it. Not, I'll pay it for you. If you want to buy a car, he got it for me on like HP just so could learn how to budget my money. So yeah, I've had lots of influences and I feel like with the work thing, it's been very much like you just need to make your way in this world kind of thing. Not so much about passion and you know, do what you love. None of that. Go out and your money and pay your bills. this podcast is about is to put it out into the world that you could be doing something. Again, I was speaking to my mum and my brother in one of the first episodes and I banned the word passion because we kept talking about it. it's important. think it's very, it's few and far between the the number of people that can do something they're truly passionate about. let's go back to the point we're talking about, like the generation coming through now or teenagers now maybe aren't getting all of that advice all the time that sometimes you've just got to, yeah, just get started, get making some money and that kind earning your stripes in that way is really important and sets you up well. I think it's a hard balance, right? Because what tends to then happen is like you get a well-paid job and I was well paid for a 17 year old starting in the city, I was on more money than most of my friends. get caught in that- Golden handcuffs I think they call it. Yeah, golden handcuffs, exactly that. So you're paid good money, you get bonus. But all of a sudden, you look forward to is the payday or the bonus when it comes around. And that takes you so far. And I'll be honest, hands up, working in the city for as long as I did, 13, 14 years in total, I was able to save for a house. I've got myself on the property ladder. So it is swings and roundabouts, but now I've got a bit older and I have found something I absolutely adore doing. I'm not sure, would I give that advice to my kids? I'm not sure I would. So this is how I was going to ask you, because you've got twin boys, you've got a third child on the way. Talk about a lot. Like I've got two young boys and I just wonder, A, what the world of work is even going to look like by the time they're working with all AI and everything else coming through automation. Like God knows what they're actually doing for work. There was an element, I'm a big proponent for doing something that you love is too big a statement to make, but just something that fulfills you, something meaningful in whatever way that is. you can disseminate something from it. think, yeah, purpose is really important. think it's good for mental health. I mean, that's where I nearly burnt out and that's why I started working for myself, doing something that I'm still a bit uncomfortable with that I do for a living, but in a way that gives me purpose, that makes it meaningful. swim for a lot of shit to get there. And that shapes you into the person that you are too. So whilst I want my kids to be doing something they get up every morning and don't feel this dread, I think by going through that process, there's something that you gain a strength too. it's really difficult. totally agree with that. It's really hard to know You kind of have to know what you really don't like to kind of learn what you would like in a job. you've got to live that experience. And as a parent, you want to protect your kids. But at the same time, my mom was incredibly supportive, but she wouldn't have been the day I said, I've got a really hard day, I'm dreading going to work. She wouldn't have been like, you can't do this anymore. She'd like, come on, let's go. mom would say, even at school, I think I'd maybe not feel very well. I'll put you in school uniform when you feel better. And my nan was very war child. How are you even complaining about that? And I think that's changing, but I don't think that's negatively changing with the mental health and stuff with the new generation and being able to follow your dreams and what you are passionate about. I'm a massive believer in you can learn skills. You can't learn work ethic to a certain degree. Yeah. Okay. No, I kind of agree with that. Yeah. Maybe I'm being too black and white, but I think you can go into a job of good work ethic and have the will to learn. If you don't have the will to learn, then kind of where are you? It's a really good point. That innate driver to want to soak things up and learn and be open to things. Yeah. It's very hard to teach yourself that you've either got it in a way or you haven't. A lot of that, and sorry to put pressure on parents, is from how you're brought up too and the people that you've got around you. And sometimes if you've given, and maybe I sound really old school now, don't know. If you've given stuff too easily. You don't really know what it feels like to earn things. It's sort of like, you know, it's always been easy. Why is this hard? But before, I don't want to turn this into a parenting podcast because that might be something for later down the line. But before I became a parent, I always would look at my mum and go like, there would be a sense of like, if you can give it to me, why don't you just give it to me? Like, just give it to me. Like, just help me out. But actually the things that she didn't do that, and I was, I was very loved and very well supported, but There were lessons that my mum taught me, which was you've got to do some shit for yourself. Yeah. Get up and get on with it. And then as you become a parent, you realise that you want to instil that in your kids and it's hard in some certain moments. Yeah. whole wanting to wrap them in cotton wool, I totally get that. But then I actually, when I reflect on where I've grown the most as a person, it's when I've gone through my hardest times personally, professionally. So we go back to that being in a really shit job, not shit job, but feeling shit about a That drove you to want to change the situation in whatever way that was for you. Same with personal stuff. You go kind of low and then you break apart and you kind of think, yeah, actually this is driving me in a new direction. So I do think that you need them lows. It's so cliché, isn't it? We're all about clichés, don't worry. Some of them exist for a reason. So yeah, it is that. I get that. So when you had come to that conclusion, I mean, great career in the city and the things that enabled you to do, like getting on the property ladder is a big thing. The things that society perceives as important, And that's a really good point actually, because you're getting on the property ladder, this kind of rite of passage that we're all, there's this societal expectation that we're all driving towards. Yeah. Yeah. As you say, like the stereotype, the tick box stuff. You did really well. And then you start to, as you get older and things happen and you go in different directions, you start to think, hang on a you start to question things. I that just becomes, you start to learn who you are, what you like and what you don't like. And I mean, I can talk for everybody about this stuff, but the conditioning of your parents, you kind of start to detach from or question. You just start to evolve more as your own independent person, don't you? You start to have your own opinions and you feel comfortable saying, don't agree with that or that's your way, but not my way. I feel like young 20s, you don't really care. You're getting swept up in this current aren't you, almost, of what everyone's expectations are of you. And what you should be doing. Acceptance, I guess, is what you're looking for. Exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good point. I think what you just said there, which is where you kind of like, you've got these attachments to your parents' ways of thinking or opinions that you start to go. No, that was, you question it, you just question it. As opposed to blindly going or wrong, it's just like, do I want that or did I? It's the typical example you get of, I don't know, not even, not me personally, but some people would, their parents wanted them to become a doctor or a lawyer and they do it and they get there and they're like, did I want this? They kind of get to the top of the mountain and they're like, well, this is else's mountain, it's not mine. Yeah, that's a really good point. So you were in London for that amount of time. Just go back to the point where you were waking, like, so you really didn't enjoy that job because of the boss and the environment that it was. Hated it. And I had a really good boss that I adore, a couple of bosses that I adored, because I worked for a partner and a couple of associates, kind of how it worked. And I think what drove me was you've got a really good job at really good age and you're in a prestigious law firm and all the societal tick boxes that on paper I was, I was doing really well from like a career point of view. And, you know, that you get your parents sort of going, my dad or whatever going, yeah, you know, she's working for like, you know, name dropping. Yeah, like badge of honor. And you're kind of like, yeah, great, am, guess, you know. But then I did ended up, I ended up transitioning to insurance. Okay. Where I got a job as an EA, which is basically a fancy word for a PA. Okay. You just work for someone, you know, in quotation point, more important than whatever. But interestingly, the guy I got hired for then left. And then the boss that came in, my new boss that took his place, I actually adored. Probably one of the most inspirational leaders I've ever worked for. And you wouldn't put that in like insurance, because I feel like insurance is very much like being stereotypical, but quite a lot of people fall into insurance. don't mean to go into it. We had someone on season two, Jonathan said exactly that, fell into insurance. And they love it. And it's great. It's a great industry. It's, can I say fun? Don't I? It's a bit more bouncy compared to other corporate sort of industries. But yeah, no, so I worked with my boss that I ended up leaving when I had the boys. Yeah, he was just, made me feel like I could achieve things I wanted to achieve. And he was ready to put me on like a plan of like, sort of wanting to do something different. I think you kind of see potential outside of what I was doing. Was that maybe do project management or? escalate your skills a bit more. And I was like, yeah, yeah, it sounds nice. And I did do a little bit of training in that and I was like, maybe I could pick up some extra work and start to evolve into a different role. But I think this is where the whole, I hate to use the word passion, I wasn't particularly driven by the topic. So I didn't really want to learn anymore. I was very practically good at my job and, you know, got the paycheck and But know, it all great. was all great. Yeah. But actually when I started to get pushed into more progression and it was at, it would have been at his detriment because he would have lost me as a PA, but he was more than happy to support me to progress. I did enjoy some of it, but I was a bit like, I don't really think project management's, I'd rather just stay as an EA, you know, kind of thing. I like the personal aspect. It's additional responsibility, additional pressure. Yeah. You get paid more money, but maybe by that point you've to realise... to question is this... I've seen other project managers and the shit they have to put up with and it's not worth it. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of not what I want. But weirdly, I worked in the life and health sector of insurance and I was working for actuaries basically, that predict risk. So it was still very academic and... like a bit nerdy, maybe some of what people say. And I feel like that's kind of what I am. I'm a little bit of a nerd. But then I started to get introduced to more of the content that I was interested in, exposed to some really amazing, inspirational, very intelligent, inspiring sort of doctors and medical professionals. about 24, 25, I started to self study nutrition. because I had some of my own sort of health issues that I was like, this doesn't feel quite right, something's going on. But weirdly that coincided with me doing more nutrition work at work. then I started part-time to do what I'm doing now basically. What was the route you took to study? I did a foundation degree part-time over three years every other weekend in London. Wow. So the first year, so I studied at the College of Naturopathic Medicine because that was the course that I could physically do if I'd given up a job. And I was like, I want to do this, think I want to do this as like a full time job, a career if I can. And also I think what drove me into that was the changes I'd made in my own personal health made such a difference as other people need to know about this. Right, yeah. I don't mean I about this. That's a really good point because I was going to ask and you've transitioned this seamlessly into the next couple of questions I had, which is all about the catalyst for what kind of shifted and what drove you into this area. I'm going to take you back a couple of steps because I think what people are really interested in is when that seed starts to get planted, that you're in your full-time job, you're doing quote unquote well, societally, whatever the, you know. whatever we're trying to push for in life, you're doing well. And then you just get this sense that there's something else that I want to be putting my passion into. when, when does that seed start to grow big enough to know I'm going to commit some time to this? Did it, did it happen around the same time that you've made those changes, like you say, based on what was going on for you personally? Yes. I think I'd been on that journey personally for a couple of years, just like, you know, trying things out and the point where I was still living at home with my mom and I started to do my own cooking and I was really into it. Why nutrition if you don't mind me asking? it based on anything you'd learned at work? Were there other routes you could have explored? Why was it specifically? I think I had real chronic gut issues and I was a bit like, something's going on with diet. And to be honest with you, on reflection from my studies and my experiences as a nutritional therapist now, I was sitting in a crap diet. I was in maybe some emotional stress that I wasn't dealing with, probably the job that didn't like. I think there is an element of like, what can I control? So it was like, okay, if I do diet, and I did feel better for it. Yeah. So I think then sort of personal changes I made and felt great for them. was like, this is something in here. Something triggered me to feel a lot better. And I was a bit like, this is really interesting. And then I There was a few people I was following at the time, health bloggers or whatever. I didn't necessarily want to become a health blogger because that's not really me, but I was interested in health. guess that's interesting. you start to immerse yourself a little bit more in that world. And a lot of the time, the lowest hanging fruit is to start looking on social media, isn't it? And start following people that have got at the time it was more blogs, there wasn't really loads of Instagram. Longer form content. Longer form recipes and stuff like that. And then, then it did start to become bigger. I don't know if you're aware of people like Deliciously Ella and all of that. Yeah. So they started to become big. And then I was like, I'm going to just investigate a couple of colleges and see if there's anything that takes my fancy. So I went to the College of Natural Health Medicine. I went to an open day and I was like, my God, this is fascinating. And then I basically signed up for their nutritional therapy degree. But yeah, it was over three years. First year was in Oxford Circus and then moved it to King's Cross. When I think about it, I must have been going to London Monday to Friday, because we didn't have working from home then. Saturday, Sunday, Monday to Friday. Then I'd have a weekend off. then I'd do, yeah, sometimes I do think, but then that's, I'm very, very stubborn. Okay. When I decide I'm doing something, I'm doing it. Well, it's going back to the point you made earlier. It's like, I'm going to, I'm going to stick this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just things out. And then I think maybe again, that's been taught from a work ethic of like, you just grow. You just do it. And also to get, guess, did you have an idea of where you wanted to get to? Or was it because you're an academic and you only like the process of learning? it day by day? I just love what I'm learning. It was more the process. I've a very curious mind. And once I get stuck into something, I have to know everything about it. And I also think as well, as a person, I kind of dig until I find a solution. So I'm a bit like, this can't just be it. Like it has to be something else. And sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's a bad thing. Sometimes I need to learn when to just leave things alone. Like it's fine as it is. You don't have to find an answer for everything. Well, that tenacity is great. I mentioned before we started recording, Katie Southgate from Gold Gate has got a very similar type of mindset in that she's a problem solver. She wants to get to the bottom of something in order to help people. that's... I guess the bigger mission of what you're doing is helping people, isn't it? So if you're driven in that way, that's a really positive thing. And yeah, I guess it can be to your detriment sometimes, bit of sacrifice, personal sacrifice in there or whatever, whatever that might look like depending on the situation. But yeah, to go through that, that commitment of time, sometimes you've got to do it. And actually the ethic that you're talking about is just, just forget where I need to go. is the sacrifice I need to make. Talk to me then. So you've gone, That was the start of your learning journey. I looked at your website before this, you've got a number of accreditations and different courses under your belt as well. That was the start of it. How long after that happened, do we then start making money from this endeavour? What's the thought process behind that? I literally, as soon as I qualified, that was 2018, I think. That's what it on your website if it makes you any Thank you for reminding me. I'm glad I wrote it down somewhere. I was still working full time and I did not have the ability to just like drop my job and start this with nothing. I wish I was brave enough to be like that, but I feel a bit insecure about financial stability to a certain degree. I'm not about all having like loads of money, but I want to be able to provide for myself. Yeah. again, a personal transition as well. So it just wasn't possible for me to drop my job. And weirdly, I loved my job. I still loved my corporate job. I was inspired by my boss. He started to give me even more opportunities with travel. I was traveling a lot. I was setting up nutrition conferences with weirdly all of the, and again, this is like my nerdy research geek mode coming in, but the nutrition researchers that you... I mentioned names, there's no point because people will like, who are they? Harvard researchers like Walter Willett, Darish Mastafarian, quite big wigs I would say in the nutrition world were coming to this conference that I was arranging, like Mark Hyman, I don't know if heard of Dr Mark Hyman. I've heard all the names you're talking about because I listened to enough podcasts that some of them have been guessed at certain points or studies have been cited as well. So yeah, I do know the names. I started to get involved in arranging some like big conferences with the BMJ, British Medical Journal, because they started to get more interested in nutrition, things like diabetes. Okay. Because obviously as a life insurer, you want to reduce the amount of diabetics you've got in your book because they're going to claim it's going to cost you money. it's, think life and health insurers get a bad rep, like life policies, that just cost loads of money that they don't ever pay out all that sort of stuff. But I actually see it from a different perspective in that they do, obviously they've got a business model. as premiums you pay, whatever. They want to make the world a more resilient place for people to have accessibility to insurance. But bottom line is they do want a healthier world. So they don't pay out loads of money basically. It's kind of mutually beneficial, isn't it? of. So I ended up sort of getting involved in arranging all these conferences basically with some individuals that I was reading their research for my assessments or whatever. And I was just a bit like, wow, this is amazing. Were you starstruck? Yeah, well, I tried not to be, because I'm like, they're just humans. But Mark Hyman, I was a bit like, hi. Because he was, he's still big, but he was like really just exploded then. He was like the first integrative doctor in the US, like thinking about functional medicine and all of that. He was kind of one of the first, I feel, that started to think differently about medicine. Yeah, so. Yeah, so I did that and I was like this and I was literally I remember before the conference started and I was like one of the main organizers. you kind of, don't just go to the conferences of all the stuff around the conference that you're doing. I remember going, sitting down and having like a cup of tea or coffee or whatever in the morning with my books because I had the conference that week in Zurich and then that weekend I was studying, I was doing my exams, sorry. Right. So I took all my study books with me so I could study on the plane and then every spare hour I got sort of before going to bed. And then I traveled back on Friday night and Saturday morning, had to be in London for my exam. I have always been maybe strong-minded. don't know. mean, drive, the drive, keep talking about work ethic and in this episode too, but you've got it there, haven't you? It's just. And I think being there with around them types of people inspired me to be like that as well. Because I was, I know it sounds ridiculous, but what's that saying? You don't want to be the most intelligent in the room. I never was at a company because they were like all actors, doctors, whatever, you name it. And I remember I was, was, what's the word, not hosting. I was, yeah, maybe I was like the host of like a round table to talk about diabetes. And they wanted me to be the person that's answering the, asking the questions and whatever. And I was a bit like, yeah, I guess I was the host of the round table. So what do you mean you want me to? But actually when they put me in that environment, I really thrived because I knew everyone around me kind of knew their stuff. So it made me match them. rather than just, I guess you can think of swimming in those situations. And I was like, you've got to swim. You can't say no to the opportunity. You just got to... It was very alarming character as you've described it over the course of this conversation so far that you're not going to back down from it. all you can do is... I mean, if I fail, I fail, whatever. It's sort of just... But then I've learned from that experience. Have you always had that mindset or is that something you've been better with as you've lived? think I've still got quite a bad relationship with failure. But actually I've started to learn when you do maybe in inverted commas, foul, it's just redirecting you. I think it's more about reframing it rather than either success or failure. I don't think it's that black and white now. Yeah. I'm going to ask, and this isn't the how to fail podcast, which is also very well known. Is there any particular failure you have in mind when you think about something that maybe you didn't react well to? No, I feel like I get more triggered by feeling like I've not done enough. The productivity kind of thing. Like have I done enough today, this week, this month? Am I far enough advanced along where I should be? That kind of thing. Yeah, at the minute I'm going through, I'm going to laugh another course, and I'm doing some assessments at the minute writing. And sometimes my perfectionism will hold me back because I'm like, haven't found all the research for this particular point. Well, no, you're never going to find all the research. You've done your best, just send it. And whatever feedback you get is great because that will, you know. Inform whatever you do next. And you know, it might inform you that you're not the best writer. That's fine. That's not an issue, is it? You'd be better at something else. think I've come to learn more, enjoying the process of something rather than getting there all the time. Yeah, that has been a common thread. I've recorded five episodes this season and I definitely haven't steered guests that way, but it keeps coming up. they're kind of not getting infatuated with the goal. it's the other awful cliche. I didn't realize we could drop so many. But it's not the destination, it's the journey. Every day, one day at a time, as long as you can be doing something that you enjoy, then that's a huge thing, isn't it? And I do think as cliches the whole word passion is, I do think it drives, I think actually purpose is probably an appropriate that, I like that. Because I think everyone in their life at some point needs to find purpose. Otherwise it just feels a bit meaningless and a bit flat. Well, that's it. Yeah. I do a lot of consulting around employee value proposition for companies that are looking to attract people and retain people. And one of the pillars I discuss is all around meaningful work. How do you make people care? How do you have people ending their day feeling like they've made a contribution? And it doesn't always have to be in the job itself. It can be maybe some of the causes that you're supporting via the work you're doing, kind of your corporate social responsibility, if their contribution is supporting something bigger than themselves, that's what people look for, general term, but a lot of people look for that. So you have to tap into that. So yeah, meaningful work purpose, I think, to really... It's interesting you say that because the boss that I found inspiring in my last corporate job, he did always make me feel like my contributions were very well valued. And I think, I know it sounds again, maybe I'm being stereotypical, but as a PA or an EA, even at that same company, I was never invited into that more important meetings or senior meetings because I was just the PA, right? But he made such an effort that sometimes it did my head in because I was like, do I really need to be in this meeting? But I was like attached to him to a certain, you know, I was his PA. I was involved in every meeting. I was exposed to all the important conversations. He was probably the first boss I had that I traveled with him a lot and whether that's his personality and that's how he feels best supported. But I think there's an element of he just wanted to me feel important. Not in an egotistical way, but what I'm contributing to the business matters rather than just you're just scheduling my meetings and checking my emails. Because I speak to enough people in and around the world I operate in that do those jobs. are made to feel like that. are literally just, you know, they're getting shit on half the time. Like, do this, do that. It's very transactional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rather than a relational way of working. And that sounds amazing that you had that he really cared. Like, if I was going through anything in my personal life, he would take me for a cup of tea. Like, it's not, it wasn't just like, you're just here to make my dreams happen, you know, or make my work happen. It was like, you matter. Yeah. It sounds lovely as well that you can transition out of that job to go into something that you are Let's just say passionate. or find more purpose in and you weren't leaving like this toxic shitty environment to have to do actually cried when I told him I was leaving. I like, I'm really sorry. just... But to be honest, knew in my hearts of hearts if I was someone to go on and have children, which I did have that vision for myself, I wouldn't want to be working in the city because I just don't know how women do it. To be honest, I'm, you know, hands off, hats up for, I don't even know what the word is. Hands up, hands up, whatever, to the people that do do it. But I just didn't see myself being a mum that was out of the house, nine to five, kids in childcare. I just didn't have that vision for myself. And then when I felt pregnant and then realised it was twins, was like, actually financially doesn't even work for me to go back to a like. Like actually doesn't, it's ridiculous. The cost of childcare in the UK is like, well, I'm sure you've experienced it. I saw a study came out or some stats the other day that said, yeah, we are so woefully at the bottom end of the rung when it comes to childcare costs. As in, they are so expensive, they're so high, in comparison to the rest of Europe and then globally. And it's interesting because before I was a mother, biologically, and this might sound a bit weird, but before I'd actually had my children been pregnant, I found there was an &D at my insurance company that had a baby and two weeks later she was back in the ballroom. I was like, wow, that's inspiring. You know, if you want to have your Korean babies, hats off, it's amazing. But then when I become a mother, was like, Why would you do that? And again, I'm not questioning that person's reasons, but I just knew that I didn't want to be working full time in the city as a mom. just didn't, I knew I I didn't want to. It's the catalyst for a lot of... people I think starting their own thing, having kids. It was for me, it was that. And I think, I don't know about guys, but women in particular, we are creative by nature. We create, that's what we do. I think when you have a baby, it kind of brings out that creativity in you more, because you kind of have to be more creative in how you make money. That's the bottom line. How you... Well, it's almost like the world is not, the world is not created for you to be mums and have like this... stereotypical job. So you have to be creative if you still have that thing inside of you because there are people that I've spoken to that are happy being parents. When I say all they want to be, I mean that respectfully, but they don't want to work in a... How do I say this? always, I'm just going to say this, I'm always mindful of being really offensive. Hopefully people know through listening to this that I'm not meaning to be. But yeah, there are people that are happy being just parents. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but there are so many people that want the best of both worlds. actually, yeah, we're not structured in a way that rewards people for wanting to go back and do their old job. I mean, yeah, again, it's the same sort of thing. I spoke to Katie, I spoke to Gemma who owns other kids. Like they all did this on the back of, you know, they knew that it wasn't going to work for them going back to the old ways. So they had post kids. they had to make a change. mental, financial, every single, it's not even like you could think, one aspect works. Maybe I can attach that. Holistically. Holistically, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. So just going back to your original question a while ago about how did I start to, so I basically see clients part-time, mostly of an evening or weekend whilst I was still working full-time. Right. And I kind of just knew eventually if I did leave or I did have children or whatever, then I would just transition it. But I think the fact that I had twins forced me quicker because if I had had maybe one and I went back part time and then had another and then completely left after having two, I feel like because the twin thing just sealed it for me instantly. could have potentially been more staggered, couldn't it? I would have done like one, two or three days in the city and then whatever. But interestingly, at the same time I found out was pregnant and was going to leave, my boss that I adored working for was moving on within the company. but he was going to be CEO of Asia. So that meant he would be moving to Asia. And the dynamic of that company was the PA doesn't go with the PA stays in position. So I would have gotten a new boss and I'm sure they would have been great, but I was like, nah, that's definitely me. That marks the end of that chapter. it was really sad, also a bit of sweet. was like, this is the time in. Did you always know when you were seeing clients at that time, had you started to look at the fertility side of things at that point? So what made you start to focus on that area? So interestingly, a lecturer when I was learning said, honestly, your clients will likely choose your speciality. my sort of portfolio, I guess, at college, my, because you have to do a lot of the clinic, the college I learned under, have to do a lot of clinical hours to have to get in, you know, people into a student clinic to practice on basically. And interestingly, as much as I didn't put myself out as hormone person, I would get women coming in with polycystic ovary syndrome, gut issues. had a client, I did a case study on repeat rounds of failed IVF. But then my aim coming out of that was just get experience under your belt. How you're going to set up your clinic, what system are you going to use? All of the running of a business stuff. Practicalities of it. are you going to have your own website? What's your email address going to look like? All of that. So I started to gradually evolve that. And then I kind of just see anybody that wanted to come to me because I wanted to learn the experience and just build my reputation essentially. And then after I had, and I was kind of trending towards more women's health, I would say, just from like who was coming through my door. And then I had the boys and was like, there is so There's such a gap in, you know, like nutrition for pregnancy, even for instance, and all of the nutrition advice they give on the NHS, to be honest with you, is a load of crap. It just sets women up for nutrient depletion and like postpartum depression. Honestly, it really does. So that's kind of where my passion come from with that. And then I was like, there's always been a lady called Angela Heap, who I was exposed to at college. She's always done fertility nutrition. And I've been to a few of her events and sort of as I was a student, I kind of was exposed for a little bit and I was like, yeah, that's really interesting. I just found it like an amazing area to work, a fulfilling area to work in. then anyway, so once I think the boys were, I can't remember how old they were, but she ended up putting out a mentorship program for a year. And I was like, I'd love to learn from her. So I just signed up for her mentorship, did it. I think it was every other Thursday night for a year. And I was like, this is what I want to do. And then it's really escalated. at that point still part time? Yes. So I was actually working. We had quite a, the childcare thing with twins is a joke because also if you kind of do half, if you kind of do an okay, you get penalized, right? Because we didn't qualify for any child support basically. But obviously if I was stepping back into a PAYE job where I knew what I was getting, Money-wise, I'd be like, okay, I can send the kids to nursery for this amount of days. I, even if I just covered the childcare costs and went back to work, I was happy to do that for a period of time. But because obviously I was starting my business from nothing, I didn't have any money to pay for childcare. So my mum bless her. She had the boys, she does actually work full time, but she made it work. She had the boys for me one day a week so I could start to build my business. And then I essentially saved the money I earned and thank you to my partner financially supporting us through this situation. Without him supporting me financially, I wouldn't have known how to do it. He still did whinge at me about how much I spent on the food shopping and stuff, but whatever that's, he still does. I feed him good meals. I mean, I've seen your Instagram, it looks amazing. I mean, I do spend far too much money on food, but that's my thing. whatever. mean, nutrition, like what can you do? Yeah. Yeah. Where was the guy with this? Yeah. So she, my mom, bless her, she, without her again, I wouldn't have been able to build it. Well, I would, but it would have been like lot later. So yeah. So I was building it with my mom having the boys free, free childcare. And then the boys qualified for the 15 hours when they were nearly three. But there was a period of time, a term when they I had to pay full price. But essentially I wanted to get them into this this childcare lady that if I didn't get them in in September, I basically couldn't wait to get the funding. I wouldn't have got them in that childcare that I wanted them to go to. So essentially what I did was I saved my money that I earned from my first maybe year of being self-employed and put it in a pot to pay for their childcare. So I started it and I still wasn't really earning any money because I was saving to go to work, which is ridiculous, but whatever. And then, yeah, so once the boys then started to go into childcare two days a week, and my mom still had them one day a week, I could really start to sort of, this is when I started to build my website and do a bit more social media. Promoting your services a bit more. a bit more. I just finished, I think I just, I was just still doing the fertility mentorship. So I guess this is where I kind of really place myself as a fertility specialist or nutritional therapist essentially. Because I also learned after having the boys, I can't stretch myself too thin. The only one that's going to like disintegrate is me. Because I also was conscious of being, you know, good parents to the boys. You want to be present and you want to... about cooking them home meals. It's not, it's something, you know, something has to slip if you're going to spread yourself that thin. So yeah, so I just said I need to focus on one area and actually need to start saying no to some people, which I felt uncomfortable with. But I think if I hadn't have said no, I couldn't have said yes. was setting boundaries, isn't it? Boundaries. Yeah. So this is where the boundaries, think children, I don't know about you, the children is, my mum always said this, when you have kids, but your boundaries will go up like the Great Wall of China. And I actually do feel like they have. And the quicker that happens, the easier you, I say easy very loosely, easier you find it because without boundaries in all aspects of having kids in your own life, as in like, set your life separate to your children. Yeah, you need them. So I think your mom's very wise with that. It's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. So, and then I was like, right, I can't, I can't just take on anyone and everyone. I can't help everyone. So I just stopped doing that basically. And then, yeah, once I completed that mentorship, I placed myself as like a fertility nutritionist. And I spent the last couple of years really digging into that area, even when I wasn't actively practising as being a mom and digging into child's nutrition and microbiome and birth and all of that. Now you've got two human experiments, haven't you, as well, guess, from like how you fed your body, how you looked after yourself through that process. So you've now at least anecdotally got that evidence as well of how... And it's interesting you say that because the boy's pregnancy was... the highest risk twin pregnancy because they were identical, which essentially means they share a percenter. And I was scanned every two weeks throughout the whole pregnancy because a lot of things unfortunately can go wrong. But honestly, think Angela as well bless her, supported me for that pregnancy without me even asking her for help. She just has to help people. And I took a lot from that. I didn't have any complications. I didn't have any twin-strand transfusion and maybe it was just potluck, but I heavily supported myself with that pregnancy with nutrition, supplements. had a C-section, elective C-section because the risk of me labouring too late was, yeah, I won't go into that here. I felt empowered with what I was doing and the health of the boys now. And again, I don't say this to boast, but my boys are nearly four and they've not had one round of antibiotic. And now I'm learning more about the impact of mother's health and microbiome on the immunity of the child. It's like so powerful. So I want people to have babies, I want them to have healthy pregnancies, I want them to have healthy babies and children. I don't want them to have to be going to the doctors every six months or, you know, just I feel that's now that's driven. Well, that's your purpose, isn't it? Yeah. That's the purpose. That's the mission you're on to ensure that happens. And you can see people can't because we're not filming this, but you can see as you're speaking about it, you're driven to do that. There's this light coming out of you when you're saying that. So it's amazing to see. And I want people, from my perspective, I want people to feel like that about what they're doing for work. And it's not always going to happen. I get it. It feels like the minority of people I speak to have that, but I get the purpose. I get the mission and I get the goal. And I think that's where the boundaries with work I find hard because it's never ending. And how do you switch off of something where At the touch of a button or the opening of a phone or lifting up of a laptop, there's this world of information that you can always upskill and do this knowledge thing and study and everything. I've decided to just start, well, just I study under certain people now. Okay. Because I know and that the lady I've been, so Angela Heap has been a massive inspiration for me. But also an Australian naturopath called Dr. Lea Heckman. So she's PhD, she's deep dived into endometriosis and she's just like at the top of her game. I think the reason why I'm particularly attracted to her is she's very academic in her approach. And she's also very spiritual, which I also am. teach yoga as well. And that came from a personal need, I think. So I hopped from the nutrition course to a yoga course for two years. But that now feeds into me as a practitioner holistically, 100%. Cause you mentioned yoga on your website and I guess that there's so much synergy between both those elements of what you're doing. If we look in a holistic health, it lends itself nicely to that, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. And particularly as I feel nervous system nowadays is so important for whole mind function. And we're all just so overwhelmed. We are more stressed and we're exposed to more news that we wish we wasn't and all of that. So quite a lot of the time I get clients coming to me saying, I've had IBS forever. Quite a lot of the time it's not the food, it's the lifestyle, it's the nervous system. So yeah, like breath work and I'm not like too cliche with it, but I do find, and I need it from a personal perspective. So coming back to how I relax, I've got like a meditation practice because I need it. The only way I sit down, which is ridiculous because I have to schedule. time to sit down. That's a joke. And that sounds absolutely ludicrous. But I get it. I personally get it. I understand that. I think for a lot of people, they might hear that and it resonates with them. they might end up that that statement might inspire people to do the same thing. Because yeah, just waiting for it to happen, waiting for that gap, waiting for that window, especially now doesn't happen. And our version of relaxing now is sitting on the sofa. for a lot of people would scroll through social media and have this absolute like barrage on our senses all the time. And I'm not preaching about me doing anything different. I'm guilty of it too. So meditation, mindfulness, anything you can do to switch off, I'm a massive advocate for that. And I've got ways of doing it, but I have to schedule those as periods of time. And especially with children now as well. Yeah, exactly. But if you've had like a busy day with work and you've come home and you've maybe had a couple of hours with the kids that's you know, been busy, overwhelmed, whatever. You kind of, you do want to just sit down on the sofa and just go and just mindlessly watch something or scroll. escapism, isn't it? lot of the time. And I don't blame people for doing it. It's more boundaries with it. maybe, know, 20 minutes of doing it, fine, move on. You know, cause it's not doing you any good kind of thing. It's when you fall into the black hole and you're just like, how time has passed? What is going on? Yeah. And I'm a nightmare. I'm more a nightmare of my phone than I've ever been because of the social media aspect of using it for my business. It's how you justify the time you're spending on it, isn't it? Again, on a previous podcast, the thing I always say or keep noticing I'm saying to my boys all the time at the moment, two sex. I feel so bad by say it all. Yeah, two sex. And I'm just like, sometimes I justify that because I'm on LinkedIn or I'm work emails. And sometimes I justify it. I'm actually on Instagram because I started on LinkedIn, went to emails and then now I'm on Instagram doing nothing related to work. I'm so glad you said that because sometimes I'll go on to my bank to transfer some money and I'm scrolling Instagram like I've not even done the banking. It's almost like, I don't know if you get it, when you drive sometimes you've been driving 10 minutes and then you didn't recognise any landmarks or anything, you're just there. Right, It's autopilot. And your thumb does the same thing on a phone and that's terrifying. So boundary setting is is really important. And again, I'm not preaching that and I'm definitely not the shining light of an example on that. because they're all designed to steal our attention. just yesterday I said to them, I'm going to put my phone in the drawer, put it on loud. So someone rings me, I know they're ringing me. But then when I went to my phone, even if it was to look at recipe or whatever, I intentionally went to it rather than like just next to me or in my pocket and just And that felt quite good actually, even if you do it one day a week. I've tried various things. I've tried dummy phones. as in... Some people have the boxes, don't they, where they lock their phone away. Have you seen them? Yeah. No, I think that's a bit extreme. What if it rings? What if it rings and it's an emergency or anything like that? But I've tried going back to a Nokia that's not connected to the internet. Quite a lot people day a week or whatever it is, I'll switch to that. It lasted for about a month and a half. I don't even know where that phone is anymore. intention was to try and do it. What the hell is this? We can get into the conversation about mobile phones for teenagers, all this stuff that is very hot topic at the moment. I think the point we're making is boundary setting is really important. because that's a double-edged sword of doing something you give a shit about. If you give a shit about it, you want to... channel all your time into it, but the boundaries are just as important as if you're working in a big corporate job where maybe that purpose, maybe that meaningful work isn't quite as present. Yeah. And I also think, I don't know about you, but for me personally, it comes down to feeling what I've done is actually, it comes from a self-esteem perspective and what you've done is good, nah. You don't need to keep going. You've done a nah. And being reflective on that rather than just keep going because it doesn't end. Is that a work in progress, think? yeah, 100%. Yeah, continue your work in progress. Yeah, because as life happens and as you kind of have different experiences, there's all different markers, aren't there, that you have to try and convince yourself, have I done enough with this? And life doesn't follow that same route all the time. And also, as business gets busier and as you start doing better, you then associate the way you had to work with, my God, if I take my foot off the gas a little bit, things are to off the face of the earth. There's no perfect answer to any of it, is there? But it's a work in progress. think that's what we want. I think the yoga, that's why I love teaching yoga because it keeps me in touch with the practice that keeps me sane and grounded and actually reflective of like how ridiculous life can be sometimes. Like it's really not that important. It's really not that, you I've read a quote to some of my students a little while ago. It was about basically measuring your day by presence, not productivity. And that's so powerful because it's like when we all get older and we need the end of work, we all get there. Are going to remember all the productive things you do? Are you going to remember being present in the relationships or with your kids or whatever? And I think it's hard to be fully present all the time. It's not achievable. But if you can, practice that a bit more. think even the simplest things become more fulfilling. And then you don't have to keep striving because you're more fulfilled in the simple things. It's a really good point. wanted to guess on season one, Hayley is an organisational psychologist and she does amazing work, but really shines a light. And she does some one-to-one coaching and I've worked with her on the back of our podcast episode. Actually, I got in touch a few months ago and we did some work together and she's great at just, it's almost like she gives you permission to have those boundaries in place and to acknowledge that what you're doing is enough. And she's got a great way of communicating it as well. But yeah, think that's really important. the stuff that she puts out into the world as well, her newsletter is just incredible, like real actionable advice. Interesting that word you say, because I use that a lot of clients giving themselves permission. I think I say it because I recognise it myself, but giving yourself permission to go to bed at 9pm relaxed, whatever. And I have to quite often remind my clients, do something that feels really like luxurious. Like maybe you feel like you shouldn't be doing it, but actually you probably should be. You know, that's giving yourself a facial or booking a facial or whatever, know, yeah, that permit that word permission. think a lot of people actually need it more than they realize. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Can you talk? Cause I want people to leave having this leave, they're not in the room with us, but I want people to sort of finish having listened to this episode with a better idea of what it is you actually do for your clients as well. So one of the questions I've asked is could you walk us through your approach with a client? I don't know if you need a bit more information than that, but your typical approach with a client, can you walk us through it? Yeah, cool. Yeah. So I'll do it from where I am now in my practice. So typically I work on packages. So my clients come to me and I do try to encourage them to come as a couple now because I find that's how get the most helpful results. I do have an option for people to come on their own. So say a woman comes to me and says, I've been diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome. They've been told that I probably won't be able to have a baby without help. I want to know how I can optimize my health. Fine. They're not quite conceiving yet. Maybe they've not even got another half. They're just sort of forward thinking. That's becoming more and more common. But typically people come to me and I would say couples generally come to me when they have had a few issues identified or they've been through the medical system, they've been to maybe an IVF clinic and felt let down or they're just not getting the results they were promised. And they normally have like a gut instinct that something's not been looked at. And to be honest, they're right because there normally isn't something that's been looked at. They'll come to me, they'll say, you know, I've been diagnosed with, I've got endometriosis and my other half has got issues with his sperm or whatever. We've been through three rounds, we don't know what to do next. So I typically will sit people down and I'm looking for root cause drivers as to why that female's got endometriosis for instance, why that guy's got sperm issues, what can we do about it? And I'm not against medical intervention. I'm not against ART. What I am against is it being given when they... likely not going to work because the issues haven't been resolved that need to be resolved. The nutritional therapy as a nutritional therapist, you're typically looking for root cause drivers of imbalance or disease or whatever. So with fertility, could be like women's, could be hormones, inflammation. mean, yeah, that could go on forever, to be honest. But it's typically about finding what the root cause drivers are for people's issues and then how we can support that with diet and lifestyle. And I'm really passionate about getting over to people how powerful their nutrition and lifestyle can be for their health, but more so for their fertility and the future of the generations to come. Because how your health is when you conceive is how the next generation's health will be. And then I don't know if this is a hunch I have, but I'm sure there's some research or someone that will maybe validate it. But maybe that is why we're finding it bit harder to conceive nowadays. While we're all getting, we're starting to conceive older, but like health isn't where it should be for when we're having kids now. Yeah. I looked, I did a little bit of research and I was, was again, still Google. So don't judge me on that. I was looking globally, fertility challenges are on the up, aren't they? But yeah, there's a few factors. One, yeah. And people trying to have kids later in life. But then yeah, health challenges like obesity being one and a load of other factors that are contributing to it. So yeah, that whole, it feels like This is the first generation where that's the case too. Yeah. Like becoming like a major issue. Also, we have to remember that the awareness has become more pronounced. Right. I think before the, maybe the awareness, it's a bit like, you know, now I've got more diagnostics and testing. can, a bit like, I don't know, the ADHD scenario. When we have the diagnostics available, obviously sometimes there's an increase in diagnosis. There's more referrals happening aren't there? Yeah. I understand that. So typically people come to me, I'll assess their situation and I work with, I do work in what we call a functional medicine model. So I'm looking for antecedents, triggers, and mediators. So antecedents or anything genetic that could predispose you. So say someone comes in and go, my mom and sister have got endometriosis. I'm like, okay, fine. You've got whatever. Or a guy or a woman comes in to me and says, yeah, my mom had multiple miscarriage or... I don't know, the guy comes in and says, my dad's got type two diabetes and I really struggle with my weight. Right. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean your genes are going, you're definitely going to get that issue. But I work with what we call epigenetics. So your genes are your blueprint. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to play out. It depends on how you live, how you eat, as to whether them genes will switch. The simplest way to put it is whether they'll switch on or off. Right. Got you. Cancer genes, whatever they are. So there's like, I guess if there's like bit of a river and you've got these kind of branches that are coming off and then you can affect it but the river's still there. It's just whether the path to go down it or not is on or off depending on whatever. open or shut or whatever. Yeah, understood. Okay. And also interestingly, if you think people, families, they'll usually live how they were. Even that diet habits will typically be reflective of how you're raised, you know? God, yeah. I find that with my issue with sweet stuff and my mum. Yeah, they're definitely connected for sure. So that's how we're raised, right? And that's that. conditioning and inverted covers or whatever it is. And I think it takes people with major health challenges to step out of that. And then triggers ready think in their case history that I think something changed for you here, what was going on. It could be an infection like with endometriosis for instance, typically they might get EBV or they might have had to make it 18 or whatever. And they go, yeah, I just wasn't the same since then. And interestingly, when you do a detailed enough case history and you talk with people, they identify themselves nine times out of 10. because you mustn't forget as a practitioner, they know their body more than anybody else. And sometimes it's guiding them to trust that. I was going to say, and also giving them a space where they're comfortable enough to share enough. And they're there for a reason, aren't they? So you're hoping a barrier has already gone, but I guess that's part of the skill set that you have. With guys though, they do take a while to warm up, which is fine. And then mediators, anything that might keep that issue going. So inflammation, for instance, which can be driven by what we eat and our stress and our sleep. sperm, depending on what comes back, say on like a sperm analysis will be what I work on. So yeah, it could be ageing, it could be rubbish diet, it could be drinking too much alcohol. What's keeping that issue going for you and what can you do about it? Can I drop a word from your website? Now I'm going to try my best to pronounce this. Hyperprolactinemia. You pronounce it well. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Now that is to do with the shape of the sperm. Is that right? No, that's to do with I said it right. But the apology. Hyperprolactinemia is basically when the whole mind prolactin is too high. And is that the reason I bring it up is, is that impacted by diet or any of those conditions we're talking about? Is that completely unrelated? No, no, that's usually driven by nervous system and lifestyle stress. I mean, very simply put will increase prolactin. It could be someone might have gone into a blood test and they've got white coat syndrome and they're really stressed out and they hate being there. Or like a guys in this environment, medical environment. And it's interesting because I always talk to guys about medicine and women, again, women are kind of used to being poked and prodded in that area from early. We put on the pill, we give birth, whatever. It's kind of like rife passage. That's probably not the right way of saying it. But I saw, I mean, the things I saw my other half have to go through in the lead up to both our kids and then them subsequently being born. And the way also that she was, I'm not going to say comfortable with it, but it was just like, this is we do. If you put a guy in that position, we'd be jumping out the window. There's no way. My other half says to me, you're always tired. I'm like, mate, if you were carrying a baby, you wouldn't be going to work. You wouldn't be getting out of bed. It's a very different, it's a different world. We're different people. very much so. Sorry. Yeah. So the reason, the reason I brought that up is just to say, cause we're talking about looking at the reasons why some of these people might be coming to work with you in the first place anyway. But yeah, I think that, I think that was a word I thought might be a little more directly related to it, but maybe. men can have it as well. And prolactin can have an impact on. if sperm has been produced, because if you're stressed out, essentially with stress and fertility, very simplified, but your body is actually trying to protect you. And if it's perceived as being in a stressful environment, and we have to remember we're primal. So it could be that you just had heightened emotional stress from your fertility journey, maybe, or from work, whatever it is, and your body, especially women's hormones, some women are really, they get impacted by stress, their hormones, their cycles will lengthen or stop or whatever. Your body's basically saying this is not a safe environment to conceive. And you think of the amount of people that are chronically stressed nowadays. And that's boundaries with the phone, that's going to bed early, that's balancing your blood sugar levels. It's not rocket science. And I actually find that the simplest changes that are free are what people find the hardest to implement. Could it become habitual? It's become like a daily routine It's behavior change, which is really hard. then, essentially they'll go away from the consultation. I'll put together a synopsis of what I've seen, what I think we can work on. Further testing, bloods, functional testing, so it could be sperm analysis, DNA fragmentation, which looks at like the nitty gritty of the sperm and what's going wrong. Women, could be lots of different testing, but gut microbiome, vagina microbe, they all make a difference. And I'll base it on case history. And then I'll send them away with some diet lifestyle supplementation. I try to keep it basic at the beginning, but because I'm quite a detailed person, sometimes people messaged me like, what are you talking about? I'm like, okay, let me call you and explain it with my analogy kind of thing. And then they'll go away for about three weeks, three to four weeks. They'll practice what I've asked them. They'll, you know, instigate the testing. They'll start ordering the supplements, whatever. And then we evolve it basically. But my packages are four months long minimum. Right. I was going to ask how long are you involved in that? Sperm will take, and this obviously is dependent on how quickly people act on the stuff I ask them to do. Sperm takes two and a half months ish to regenerate. Okay. So the power of sperm is that I can say to a guy, it's a project. I need you for three to four months. Let's do You need to invest some time and energy in this. And guys do like timelines, they like data. And women, maybe a little bit longer because there might be some things that take a bit longer to shift. It depends on how long it's been going on for. It depends on what I find in the case history. But yeah, mean, some people will come to me to get pregnant. They'll leave me pregnant. Some, might take them a bit longer. Some decide that actually they don't want to conceive anymore and that's fine. Yeah, everyone's different. Yeah, of course. But I get frustrated with them coming to me, particularly when they're like 20 something. IVF clinic says, your egg quality is really low or you've got no eggs. You need IVF and you know, they might have free rounds, it doesn't work. Then we work on a few things and they can save. How much money have you spent going through that? And I'm not saying nutrition and lifestyle is everything. Like I'm not saying IVF is everything, but it's about really assessing where someone's at, what you can do and then putting together like a therapeutic plan, I guess, a treatment plan. Because a lot of people in their fertility, when they come to me, they just feel completely lost, out of control, don't really know what they're doing, where they're looking, they're googling, they're taking this supplement, does it work, does it not? So it's more about me giving research-based informed direction on what we're going to do next and what's actually going to work, what's maybe not, what you need a bit more help with. So is this something, and I don't know how comfortable you are saying this, but is this something that NHS are just overlooking? Are they not? putting the kind of weight into this when they're advising people what they could be doing. is over- They don't have the knowledge. They don't have the toolbox. It's like me, I wouldn't be able to advise on medicine. I haven't got clue. And I say this to clients, it's not about bashing doctors or the NHS or whatever. It's about they don't have the toolbox to help you and that's okay. Yeah, okay, understood. And that sounds ridiculous, but even IVF clinics, they don't often have the toolbox. Because this is the thought process I go through when I hear about IVF and that ultimately people are going there for a chance to conceive. in my head, and this is obviously wrong, but in my head it's to the clinic, part of their service should be helping people regardless of whether IVF is actually needed or not. it's almost like what you're doing is compliments what they're doing perfectly, but how that's not, I mean, it's in a way, the service you're providing is obviously, well, it is filling that gaping hole that's there. But yeah, I find it really hard to think that that's not being looked at. Yeah, I do as well. But I mean, I could be really pessimistic, but I was actually talking to a client this morning, a guy that said it just makes you think if they actually want you to succeed on the first round. And I hate to say that and I'd hate to think, but Ivy F is a business. It makes billions of pounds. And the average is three to five rounds for someone for it to work. I've had some insight into costs as well from friends and people in my life that are looking down that route or have been down that route. it's just so, the barrier to entry is so incredibly high for people. the NHS, I feel sorry for them and I feel sorry for doctors, but typically at the minute, especially in our area, we're failed for a sperm analysis. A couple of clients are looking at November, January, March. So it's like, On average, I would say at the minute maybe like a three to six month wait just to get an analysis. And then if I then need three or four months to work on that, a lot of, must admit this last year, a lot of my clients that come to me, I like just forget about the NHS, I don't want to deal with them anymore. Because I can't wait any longer. I'll just go private. And if you've got the means to do that, then that's a privileged position to be in. But also you've got the IVF. postcode lottery where some areas you'll get three rounds, some areas you'll get one round, some areas you'll get none. Really? So then it depends on where you live. And that's ridiculous. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, but I just don't, I don't think they have the resources, the same story for a lot of things to be honest. And I do really feel for the, and do you know what, the only other issue as well I have with what I do, I'm not accessible to everybody and I'm trying to share more knowledge on social media and website and stuff. So if they can't pay to come and see me at least. They've got a bit of an idea of what they should look at or what they should test or whatever. Yeah, I mean, you don't. So again, having looked for your website and your Instagram feed, and I've been following you on Instagram for a while on the back of Charlotte's recommendation too. But you don't gatekeep a lot of the stuff that you share. So there are some really insightful posts and links to articles and all these things, which I think is amazing that you're putting out there. Because yeah, I get that. think that's part, it's really hard when that is your purpose. Yeah. You have to make a living. You have to charge for the service. Whatever you can do. And that comes across, I guess the point I'm trying to make is it comes across that you are trying to put as much out into the world for, to be of use to people. good. Whether they can afford it or not. That's my view from what I saw. Yeah. Cause I think as well, like with the NHS. Even their IVF protocols are very standard. So I've had clients react really badly to an NHS IVF protocol because they don't do things like cycle monitoring, which basically, if you pay a bit more money, went to a private clinic, they may or may not monitor your cycles to adjust your medication so that you don't go into what we call something like OHSS, which is basically where the ovaries over-reduce eggs and it can make women really poorly to the point where can impact the health of the ovary or whatever. So it can be quite dangerous. just, think it's unfortunately, feel like maybe it's because I'm in this world now. I feel like the issue is only getting worse. But in my experience, a lot of people, clients now just say they've either had enough of IVF, the NHS, or they can't get the support they need or in the timeframe they want it. So they just have to find a way to go private, which is sad. is. Yeah. I think, well, I think what you're doing for people is an amazing service. And like I said, what you're what you're doing beyond the consultations and the actual, I guess, how you are making a living. What you're putting out there is a message that so many people need to hear. It supports them, makes them feel like they're not alone. Because I guess that is sometimes the mindset people get into is like, why us? Why is this happening to us? sometimes I do think why you? Because you know, you can get someone that drinks and smokes and does drugs and they can save or whatever. And some people say to me, how, why? And the only explanation I've currently got is like genetic resilience. Like maybe they've got stronger genes and whatever, I don't know. But yeah, it's, it's hard, right? Because it's also a vulnerable topic that you don't really want to be seen making a business out of. But I'm also fed up with IVF clinics making billions and billions. And they don't even look at the research on what can optimize people at couple's chances. Like I work on, so If you transfer this very simplified transfer into an egg into a vagina microbiome, so the ecology, the bugs in the vagina basically that aren't happy, it can cause inflammation and mean that the egg doesn't implant. The vagina microbiome test is maybe what, 179 pounds? So compared to what some of the testings that the IVF clinics might push to test the quality of the egg or whatever, here's an add-on for 2000 pounds, here's an add-on for a thousand pounds, here's an add-on So I've been doing these for a while and I will find something, can I say to my client, I found this, we need to support it before you go for transfer. They'll speak to their consultant, they said it's a waste of my time and my money. Right. Right, okay. I've only had one consultant this year, the last couple of months, agree with me to do a vagina microbiome test. We found something, a bacteria that is known in research to cause infertility in women. We found it, we removed it. That's the first consultant that I've seen in the last couple of years that's agreed with me to do one and then provide the treatment. I just think how many more people would maybe, and I'm not just saying it's just that, there's obviously multifactorial reasons, but how many people would be better supported if they just had some of these testings available and used them? It's not like I'm just sprouting like naturopathic, holistic bollocks. The research is there. They just don't read it or they do and ignore it. don't know. That's a really good point. I didn't even realise that it was a vaginal multiply. You won't follow me. Yeah, and to be honest, I've only really started to learn about the gut microbiome as well. So why would I then know there was a vaginal microbiome? microbiome, there's everything. There's an oral microbiome. But that's great. And I think that's a really, the fact that you're advocating for the people you work with too. And just, okay, one person. Yeah, it's not great in terms of ratios, is it? But that one person, surely that at least you know that something's being listened to and you're hoping that maybe there'll be more on the... Fingers crossed. hope it's changing. I think it has to. Yeah, definitely. It does. All right. I've got couple more questions and we're going to go through the closing tradition and I'm also going to ask this question now. You're going to be like, what? How do I fit this in? Okay. So you're a mum to twins. Yes. your twins, I think before I ever knew of you, I'd seen your twins because they are just, first off, gorgeous kids, but they're just so noticeable. So I saw them and then I must have seen Lawrence with them as well. But you're a mum to twins, how old are they? They'll be four in November. Okay, so you're a mum to nigh on four year old twins, you've got another baby on route. How do you get the work life balance right? It's hard. I think I work too many evenings. And pregnancy has stopped me from doing that. I don't have a choice. I'm tired by 9pm, my brain's done. But just like I've got a really supportive family and like Lawrence is really supportive. I guess like I'm very structured as well. So I'm like, this is what I'm doing on this day. And like you said, it's boundaries with time. Sometimes it does leak into the boys a little bit. So particularly the last month or two, I've been really busy because I'm taking on my last clients for the year for the program maternity leave. So I have had an influx of new clients and sometimes I might put a film on whilst I'm checking my emails or doing an Instagram post or whatever, which some, you know, sometimes I feel horrific for, but as long as I keep my boundaries with it, like, you know, one hour of tea screen time whilst I do this, then we're going out. Yeah, I guess boundaries and support with my time management. And I feel like that's something that comes naturally to me because of my old job. was going to say like, yeah, PAEA and all of the skills that you developed during that time are just perfect, aren't they, to try and manage time. But I also know the realities of what it's like having two kids myself and it's hard and it does, the parent guilt is real. yeah, it's so real. Like regardless of what you're doing. And again, watching your Instagram feed, like you very clearly do so much for those boys and the way that you you're channeling a lot of energy into that. So I can imagine sometimes where you are having to sacrifice either time with them or put them in front of a screen, you know, it weighs on you, doesn't it? It's all for the greater good. tried to do like, you know, like I tried to just write an hour, that's it. then, know, like, and to be honest, I've actually, the boys are very good at independent play, think maybe because they've got each other and they're both into the same thing. So I try not to rely on the screen until I'm absolutely desperate, but also I try to involve them in the kitchen and like my jobs. So then I'm getting stuff done, but I'm not just shoving them somewhere because I need to get done quickly. Yeah, you're integrating them into the... Integrating them, yeah. And I'm getting better and better, but it's hard. But boundaries with kids, I found these so important. Like, you're not having that whatever before dinner, you're having dinner in... Honestly, they asked me about a million times just to say when dinner was going to be ready. As I'm not giving you a snack, you're not going to eat your dinner. I tried to explain it to them. Obviously, they're only like nine and four, but... Yeah, I guess it comes down to boundaries and time management. Yeah. Cool. What's next for you? So you're talking about maternity leave. So is that completely kind of stepping away from the business for a period of time? I plan to not really engage with client work for probably next year. Okay. So basically the boys should be going to school next September. but they come first really. So it's making sure they're settled into whatever they're doing and then I'll start to rebuild it again. So it might just be, and again, it depends on the baby. I don't know what they're going to be like, temperament. They're all different, aren't they? So I guess what I'll probably plan to do is get my ducks in a row with the kids first, because they are my priority, and then start to evolve clinic work again. I'm, you can probably tell I'm not someone that's going to completely switch off. I've got my course that I'm doing at the moment with Laya Heckman. It's an advanced fertility course. And when I say, I think it's five or six month period, six months, although it's six month course, I think I could continue learning from that content for years. So I think I'll just be in the background, organising client resources, know, listening to lectures whilst I'm on my pram walk or whatever. So I'll still keep my brain engaged. and up to date with what I'm doing. But there's been some elements of like, I wish I just had a week to just like type up some handouts for clients or write a blog post. So I think I'll probably do the background stuff. What, you know, when the kids, for instance, when the baby naps or whatever, but I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try not to force myself back into client work too soon. Because also it's not fair if I can't give the clients the time, the research, the, you know, what they deserve. I'm not prepared to take someone on and let them down. But also the experience you're going through in terms of pregnancy and then when baby arrives is all not that you're viewing it like this, but it's again, it's all evidence that supports what you're doing, isn't it? It's like a real world case study and that's not That's not how I'm sure it's you think Sometimes I've said to Lowell a couple of times, maybe I'll get a gut microbiome test on the boys. He's like, no, enough. That's ridiculous. But what about, you know, their identical in DNA, that my clinical research of brain starts to go mad. And he's like, no, stop. The testing. mean, they stop. I'm not okay. They're also your kids. Right. So I've introduced the game for this season of the podcast. It's this or that. basically I'm going to give you 10. There's 10 questions. You've got two options for each and you need to give me one of the options as quickly as possible. So the goal is to try and make it relevant to what it is you do. God. I've tried. All I'm going to say is I've tried. So we're just going to run through it very quickly and then we'll get on to mum's closing question as well. So this or that. Question number one, smoothies or supplements? Smoothies. Number two, meal plan or intuitive eating? All meal plan. I mean, I love intuitive eating, but I need meal plan to keep the family afloat, basically. Number three, early mornings or late nights? Early mornings. Number four, yoga class or fertility workshop? Yoga class, probably just for me. Five, low carb or balanced diet? Balanced diet. Okay. Number six, home cooked meals or dining out? Home cooked meals. Number seven, meditation or exercise? Meditation. Number eight, preconception support or pregnancy nutrition? Preconception support because that will lead into pregnancy nutrition. I knew you were going to do something like that. Number nine, herbal remedies or vitamins? that's so hard. I'm going to say vitamins because my knowledge is there more, but herbs is something I'd love to study more on. Okay. And number 10, one-on-one consultations or group sessions? One-on-one consultations just because what I do is so personalised. Here we go. Was that all right? I'm setting those up thinking, Christ, this is dodgy territory. Okay, so we're going to do mum's closing question. Every episode, I apologize and I still feel like I need to because I do not listen to these. she knows roughly, she knows about you, she knows who I'm speaking to. Do you notice, have you listened this far on a podcast yet? No. That's fine. So basically the closing traditional podcast. My mum sends me a voice note with the closing question for whoever I'm speaking to. So I'll just play it down the mic. Hi Whitney. What's the number one thing that we could all do to improve our gut microbiomes? Thanks very much. So it's relevant. She loves it. I think although I do tend to ask her like two hours before the recording, she's like, for God's sake, John, give me more notice. So yeah, what is the one thing I think, is the one thing we could do to improve our gut microbiome? If there's only one thing we could be doing. So maybe I'll do a diet and lifestyle. So diet, diversity. Yep. So more plant fibre. So I just think colour, not into calorie counting, restriction, I think, and more diversity. So any way can get more colour into it. Lifestyle stress management. There you go. That's one of the more succinct answers and that's exactly how I like it. So that's brilliant. it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been great. And what we'll do for anyone listening to this that is interested in working with Whitney, now obviously this is... quite close to maternity leave is pending now. When's baby due? January. January. Okay. So yeah, we're on the cusp of that and no new clients until... Not package work. I'm doing a little bit of ad hoc where I take them one on one if I feel like I can do the case, either justice or you've seen me as a client before, but otherwise I'm going to do a wait list when I come back. Understood. Brilliant. So I will share all Whitney's socials, the website. I think there's a free download as well if you subscribe to one of... Whitney's newsletters, is that right? I'm not annoying. Yeah, I sent my first newsletter yesterday in like six weeks. I'm very sporadic. But I'm sure it's incredibly valuable and useful stuff in there as well. But yeah, it's been lovely speaking with you. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. Cheers. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there. If you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. You can follow Jobsworth on Instagram where you'll get teasers for upcoming episodes, some behind the scenes videos and the occasional bit of career inspiration. And if you'd like to learn more about my day job, then feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.