Ancient Medicine in Modern Times: Acupuncture & the Nervous System — with Tiffany Schaal

In this episode of The Psychedelic Psychiatrist, Dr. Juan Pablo Galindo speaks with licensed acupuncturist and yoga teacher Tiffany Schaal about how ancient healing practices intersect with modern understandings of the nervous system, stress, and chronic pain.

They explore what acupuncture actually is, how it works in the body, and why so many people today feel chronically dysregulated. This conversation bridges Eastern and Western perspectives on healing — highlighting the role of the body, balance, and learning to listen inward.

In this episode:

• What acupuncture really is (beyond the needles)
• How acupuncture affects the nervous system
• Stress, anxiety, and the body connection
• Chronic pain and why it persists
• Emotional patterns held in the body
• Acupuncture for athletes and recovery
• The role of yoga, breath, and daily habits
• What it means to live in balance

About Tiffany Schaal

Tiffany is a nationally board-certified and licensed acupuncturist and registered yoga teacher. She works with individuals experiencing pain, stress, and sleep issues, and supports overall wellness, recovery, and performance through a personalized, holistic approach.

Learn more:

https://www.breatheeasywellness.com/

The Psychedelic Psychiatrist

Exploring the intersection of psychiatry, consciousness, and healing.

Come visit our website for more information: Innerbloom 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hello and welcome to the Psychedelic Psychiatrist Podcast, a podcast dedicated to the discussion around all aspects of psychedelic medicine. This is also a space that hosts conversations about impactful personal journeys and a way to decrease stigma around these molecules and share our experiences with one another. So get ready for some deep dives and fun times. I'm your host, Juan Pablo Galilento. Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. Hope you're having a great day today. Excited to talk about this podcast and share this conversation with you. So today we're stepping into a form of medicine that's been around for thousands of years, yet still feels mysterious to many of us. Acupuncture, Japanese, Chinese medicine, practices like yoga all point towards something modern medicine is slowly trying to remember. Healing isn't just about treating the symptoms, but about restoring balance in the entire system, body, mind, nervous system, and the soul. Today I'm joined by Tiffany Stahl, a licensed acupuncturist and yoga teacher here in Charleston, South Carolina. She brings a really grounded and integrated approach to helping people move out of pain, reduce stress, and reconnect with their bodies. In this conversation, we'll explore acupuncture, the nervous system, chronic pain, and what it really means to come back into balance. Tiffany, thank you so much for being here. Really excited to speak with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Wonderful. So I thought it'd be cool before we get started and do dive into everything today, to just kind of ask you some questions about your upbringing and yourself and whatever you feel comfortable sharing, just so the audience gets to know you a little bit. So we'll just kind of start off from the beginning, if that's okay with you. And like, yeah, where were you born? Where were you raised?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yeah, so I uh I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, and grew up there my entire life until moving here to Charleston back in 2020. So up until college, I lived in Pasadena, which is between Annapolis and Baltimore. Kind of close to the water, but not ocean. And then from there, when I went to college, moved to uh west of Baltimore. I was there for probably 12 years, maybe 10 to 12 years. And then from there decided that we wanted to live close to the ocean. And it was kind of time to make that move. So we had met some friends here in Charleston uh randomly uh while we were out downtown when we were here for a wedding and became really close to them. One of the girls actually was from Baltimore as well, and then uh had came down and visited and uh started to like being in an area where you can kind of work and be at the beach and not just like a tourist town. So kind of fell in love with Charleston the first time we went out to Folly and then have been here since. So yeah, moved here in 2020 and then yeah, Maryland the rest of the life. Uh my family and my wife's family is still back in uh Maryland, except my brother, my brother lives in Japan. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Nice. What was it like growing up in in Maryland, like Baltimore area? Like what's what's like the vibe out there growing up?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah, so I played sports all my life, so I was pretty consumed with that from the start. And I lived kind of in the woods in a way. So it was just my parents' property and my grandparents' property. So we had a pool. So it was a lot of time just outside in nature, kind of like moving through the trails that we had behind our house and then swimming in the pool. And then outside of that, it was sports. I played sports year-round. Um, I played lacrosse, uh, soccer, basketball for a bit, softball at one point, but uh lacrosse was kind of my main sport. Yeah. So that was pretty much yeah, it's pool and sports and school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Awesome. It kind of like reminds me of of my childhood. At one point we were, my brother and I were growing up in Lake Tahoe in um Nevada. I think we were there for like three or four years, but essentially our backyard was a forest. And so we were like outside all the time, which now I'm like, oh wow, what a gift to be able to just be in nature all the time. Totally. I feel like it it shapes your worldview in some way. So I was curious, like, have you noticed that just growing up in that environment has has shaped um like the way you see things in any way for you?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I th I think so. And and we'll probably talk about this later, but with in acupuncture, uh in five element acupuncture specifically, it's very focused in the seasons. And so I think being able to grow up in Maryland where you have all four seasons, um, you get quite diversity anywhere from snow to really warm weather gave me an appreciation for nature. And then uh a friend of mine and I uh had a tree house. And when I mean tree house, I mean a two by four fungi cord in a tree that we would climb up to and like sit and like uh like read scary stories and stuff like that. So like even just being in the nature of like climbing and being in the dirt and things like that, I think has really shaped this way of grounding that I didn't know was doing that until later in life when I start to crave that if I'm like inside too much and stuff like that, or just being like craving the beach.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Nice, yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

What was it about lacrosse that became like your sport out of all the ones that you played? Was it oh yeah?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I don't know. That's actually I've never really thought about that. My brother played lacrosse too, and I kind of followed him. Uh, but there was just something fun about it. I played uh more like defensive midfield, and there was something to being able to like see the whole field and being able to make moves based on what other people were doing, but then also being able to like intercept the ball or something like that, and like then see the field forward and like what to do. So maybe it was uh the precision of it. I was pretty good at it, I think, too. Um, it was just fun. I I like that better than soccer than being on my feet. I'd like the hand coordination better. And I think there was something about just being on a team. I grew up going to private school, middle school, and high school, but I got to stay connected to my friends through across through till high school. And then once I was on my high school team, I played on a travel team too, but got to stay connected to other girls through that too. So I think that was also a cool thing that I got to still be with people that I grew up with, even though maybe moving on to different teams as I got older. So there's always something uh in common.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Awesome. Yeah, I feel like uh lacrosse is if like soccer and hockey had a baby, it would be a lacrosse or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

But on the West Coast, it like was not I don't even think people, I didn't even hear about it until I moved to Massachusetts for college. And I was like, what is this thing? And just seeing like guys in the in like the college yard with their sticks and passing it back and forth. And I literally had never heard about it, but but then I watched it and I was like, oh, this looks sweet.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, luckily girls across is a little bit different than men's, uh, with like we don't have the pads and stuff like that. I think women just started wearing like goggles when I was in high school.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Why would why was that different?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

You just you don't hit the same uh in Guys and Girls Wacross. We used to joke that like Girls Across was a little bit more finesse kind of thing, because you're still kind of like on the body, but you're not like hitting each other like hockey or something like that. Um, but yeah, it's always been fun for me to watch growing up, watching my brother play, and then fun for myself.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Okay, nice playing. Um speaking of your brother, like how did he end up in Japan or what's what's he up to out there?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, so my brother's dream was to go to the Naval Academy uh growing up. So he ended up doing that and then was in uh the Navy for a few years, post-Naval Academy. So Japan was the last place that he was stationed and just ended up loving the culture and loving the country and decided to stay. So now he owns a CrossFit gym in Tokyo and travels like Asia area coaching CrossFit level ones. So yeah, he just he got out there through the military.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

All right. When thinking about like how you like ended up focusing on on acupuncture, like how did these different like life journeys like weave their way to yeah, creating the opportunity for you to be interested in that? And like, so how did you land on that?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, so I was going to go to college for lacrosse and then decided two weeks before that I didn't want that to be my life anymore, and just wanted to focus on school and kind of move to the next chapter of my life. So I actually started going to yoga class with my mom. And I had did my first yoga class when I was in high school with my mom, and I was kind of making fun of her for it, like, yeah, whatever yoga, and it kicked my butt. So, like my first uh initiation was more of like the gym yoga where you're getting a little bit of a workout in it too. And I was like, okay, mom's kind of like mom's tough, mom's cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Mom's badass.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah, exactly. So that was my first experience. And then after I gave up lacrosse and started going to like uh a more traditional style type of yoga class, I really fell in love with it. And I was like, well, this is cool. Like I really like being a leader, like I was a captain of the lacrosse team and stuff like that. And I was like, I like being in my body, I like being like connected in that way. So I was like, maybe I'll learn, you know, how to be a yoga teacher. So that's kind of what started it. And then from there, I started learning. Um, once I got into like the upper level yoga stuff, like through my 500 hour, started learning more about like subtle energy and meridian systems and the naughty system. And thought that was really cool and how these energy systems in the body can hold and shape and do different things that are maybe unseen sometimes in the Western side of medicine. And I never really wanted to be on that side of medicine that never interested me, but like this side really did. So I just became like a curiosity, and then yeah, we ended up at that same time while I was going through yoga teacher training. My mom and I were taking our family dog to acupuncture for hip dysplasia, and she was kind of to the point where she couldn't like get up and walk on her own. We would assist her out. And uh one time after one of her acupuncture treatments, she got up and ran after a ball that my friend and I were playing catch with. And I looked at my friend and I looked at my mom, and I'm like, Did that just happen? So that's like catalyst and how actually playing lacrosse catch uh with the dog after acupuncture during yoga teacher training. So, like all three kind of at the same time. And so one thing led after another, and just curiosity, and then I eventually decided to go to acupuncture school.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Do you remember like what it was when you first started doing yoga that like became that? You're like, wait a second, this is kind of cool. Like, what what was it about?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It was the mind-body thing for me. There was like just this connection with my mind and my body that I was always somewhat interested in growing up, but I really didn't have a language for it or like what that meant. Like I like church wasn't really like the thing for me. Like I enjoyed like the ritual of it, but it wasn't it was wasn't quite hitting it, and not that yoga is a religion or like yoga's church for me, but it's just this deeper connection to something bigger than myself and something deeper than myself that I think was like my first I don't know, my first experience of that, of being in this place of like peace and like joy, but but through my own self.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, yeah. And like uh like feeling grounded, feeling present.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Exactly. Just like being on the field, right? It's like you get this perception of like focus and like nothing else you can see around you, but just this pure presence. And I think that translated in the yoga practice, but at that point I just didn't have any language for it. I just uh wanted to explore it.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

It's almost like you uh like in yoga, the field becomes like your body. So in like in when you're playing sports, the field is outside of you and you're really focused on that. But there's something about yoga where you're like focusing on your own movements and your body and your breath that really allows you to be present to like the field within per se.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

If that yeah, totally. And so yoga was kind of like the the intro into this this world, and then there's kind of like a light bulb moment when you when you saw your dog, yeah, just like yeah, miraculously so cool, like what a cool way to spend a day, like and originally I went to acupuncture school because I wanted to treat dogs, because in Maryland, you can be an acupuncturist for animals without uh being a veterinarian.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

So I was like, this would be such a cool way for me to like stay creative and like help, and I love dogs. So I wasn't even, I was like, maybe I'll treat a couple people, but like I really want to treat dogs. But in order to do that, at that time you had to go through acupuncture school, and then it would be a postgrad certificate. But at the time they ended up when I was in school, they stopped offering that graduate certificate for treating animals. So I was like, yeah, I guess I'm treating people now.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

But during that process in learning what acupuncture was about, also doing some like sports medicine acupuncture stuff too, as like uh one of my elective courses. I was like, oh, okay, I get it now. So I like get to tie this aspect of nature and this like mind-body medicine, but also get to tie it into like my love of sports too, and helping people continue to move.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Awesome. So yeah, a good blend of uh it's passions that you have.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

And just like through following this like curiosity and this like nerdiness that I have to just keep learning stuff.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

What was your dog's name?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Ashes.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Ashes?

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, my dad's a fire investigator, and uh she was going to help him like smell out things. Oh, and so she got the name Ashes.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah. Shout out the ashes, yeah, right? Amazing. For people that don't know anything about acupuncture, like uh, how would you describe that to someone if they're like, I don't know, I've heard of it, but what what exactly is that?

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Like, how would you define it or how would you I get this question a lot, and it really depends on what people are coming in for, right? So things that I treat kind of most are aches and pains, sports injuries, things like that, as well as like nervous system regulation. So if I was answering this for the sports person or the person who just wants to like keep picking up their grandchildren or just like move freely, I would say that acupuncture helps release tight muscles, it helps activate weak muscles, it helps get blood flowing, helps decrease inflammation, helps improve range of motion, and then also helps with the mental aspects of aches and pains. Cause at the end of the day, it's all connected, right? Whether we're talking about nervous system or we're talking about pain, it all ends up being connected. So the cool thing about like acupuncture versus like just dry needling, right, is that we get to help support the like spirit of the person in the mental aspect with acupuncture too, not just the local area. Because a lot of times when people are in chronic pain, that takes a toll on their mental health too, right? And then if someone was coming in for just like balance, you will hear that a lot. I would say that acupuncture helps to regulate the nervous system, it helps to support us being in a parasympathetic state where we can rest, digest, heal. It releases endorphins in the body. Studies suggest that. Releases neurotransmitters in the body, again, decreases inflammation, um, which uh my understanding that's coming out a lot more with mental health stuff, the amount of inflammation in the body. So yeah, I kind of tailor the answer based on you know where people are coming from because it can really fit a bunch of different avenues.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. What about like like the origins of it? Obviously, it's originally from like Chinese tradition, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yep, yeah, and there's there's other styles too, like the five element style that I originally learned is uh rooted in Japanese style, which tends to can be a little bit more gentle, but yeah, Chinese medicine as a whole, and then like there's Korean styles and things too. So there's a bunch of different different ways. And then it came to the state. I mean, it's still fairly new-ish in the states. Um, like it really started becoming popular late 70s, early 80s. I think it was uh Nixon, President Nixon was over in China. And don't quote me on this, I haven't read this article in a while, but I'm pretty sure it was Nixon was over in China. And a reporter or something had gotten sick and ended up in a Chinese hospital and ended up feeling much better, and like came back and wrote about it. It was kind of, I think it kind of started with a little bit underground scene, and then in the 80s started kind of institutionalizing and becoming more of a uh what's the word like more formal formal medicine. Yeah. So now to be an acupuncturist, it's minimum master's degree and over like 1900 hours of stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

And this goes back like thousands of years, correct?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Thousands of years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I'm always interested in like the origin of like who's the first like chick or dude who's like, let me stick this in the like that's what I would love to know.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Is like this medicine is amazing, and it is cool how science can prove it now, of like what people have been doing for thousands of years. But it's like those first people, right? How do you know that putting a needle, you know, in the hand affects the head? Like, are these people just like sit like what were they doing? They just sitting around and just like poking each other. And so, well, where do you feel it? Where do you like I I also wonder?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

So interesting. So speaking to that, there's certain parts of the body where you that you that you learn affect uh like other parts of the body. Like there's a connection. Is that what a meridian is? Or could you explain what meridians are?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, so meridians are uh they can also be called channels. There's 12 of them, and they run through the body, and then you got two other ones, uh the CV channel and the G V channel, or conception vessel, governor vessel, and you can think of these as like the ocean. And then you can think of the 12 meridians as the rivers. So the C V G V line uh run up the front and the back of the body, and then they help like support the primary meridians, which are your 12. And they start either at the fingers uh or end at the fingers and the toes. They run up through the body in different channels. So you've got six up on the arms, and then you got six down on the legs. And one of some studies are showing that meridians are working through the fascial connections. Some are saying that acupuncture works through the nervous system connection or how the nerves run through the body. But depending upon where you needle, each point kind of has a different function. And each meridian is associated with a different organ system. And then each organ system from a five element perspective is then brought into a uh element or a season. So for instance, we have spring coming up, so those are gonna be liver gallbladder organs uh or meridians within the spring or the wood element. Each of these elements have their own correspondences, their own organs, obviously, their own ways that like symptoms or signs of dis-ease might show up in the body or the mind or the spirit.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

How come the liver and gallbladder got the spring?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Is there something like about like uh rejuvenation that these were like I don't know that these are cleansing the I don't know how they picked which ones get which because like uh so yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how they got what they got.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

But the liver, I can say like uh each of these organ systems uh aren't just like what's in our body, they also kind of have their own um personality or way that they show up, if you will. We call them the officials, so it's like all these officials sitting at the dinner table, right? And then like each got their own job. So the liver is more of like the planner, and then the gallbladder is more of like uh your general, like calling out the decisions and like changing course. And then within that, we have this sense of flexibility in the springtime, this sense of rebirth and growth, and all of those things correspond to that season. So if like someone came into the office, they were really struggling with uh making decisions or standing up for what they believe in, or had a lot of headaches because you can tie the meridians to areas of the body where things show up. So gallbladder channel runs on the side of the head, it also runs through the upper traps. So a lot of the times if people are very stressed out, they'll feel aches and pains through the meridian. So that can give us a little bit of insight of what's going on in the body, too.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Okay, so fascinating. It's cool how you and we'll dive into this later, but the connection between like psychological like issues or something, something that someone's stuck in psychologically, and how like how you said with decision decision making, but then relating that to the liver in some way and how they're connected.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

And that's like uh I I always like to use this as a example is that a lot of time people are stressed out, they might go home and have a drink to help chill out. That when we have a drink, helps to smooth the liver chi in Chinese medicine, but then can add more later. So instead of maybe going home and having a drink to de-stress, another way we can smooth that is by moving the body. Because the way that alcohol helps to depress the system, movement can help do that too. But you can see how alcohol affects the liver and then it affects the stress. Does that make sense how they tie together?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

So emotion, what we might do to help it, and then what organ it might affect.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Exactly. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

So that's usually an easy one, easy one to kind of see a correlation to.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Okay, yeah, yeah. When you place the the needle like in the body, there's like a chain effect, or like what's what what do you believe is happening when you place it? I guess it's if you're targeting like a nerve or you're targeting like the lymphatic system, like it's I guess it probably depends, but yeah, it depends on the point.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

So some studies will show like through functional MRI, like what areas of the brain get lit up. Oh, cool. Based on where you're being needled. So, like, for instance, like a really popular point in a lot of studies is uh stomach 36 here on the shin. And that point has been like shown in studies to be like the chicken noodle soup point, is like how we learned it in school. So it's really good for the immune system. But on functional MRIs, it's showing that it can decrease activity in the amygdala, but also help increase activity in the hypothalamus. And some people believe that that's like a very parasympathetic point. So if that's a parasympathetic point, and then it's also showing that it's stimulating the hypothalamus, then we can see how acupuncture point location or specific point functions can then shift and change what's happening in the body. And that's where like nervous system regulation comes from, too. It's like if we're affecting the hypothalamus, then that HPA access gets a little bit of shift, and then cortisol gets a little bit of shift, and then we're more into the parasympathetic side of things.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

It's so interesting how like like I just thought we were talking about like how do these people, you know, thousands of years ago know that that part in the shin affected that, but they they knew it.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

And but now we can actually see it with the fm fMRIs. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like they were so advanced.

unknown 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Like we've lost so much, so much of that.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Um, one of the things that we haven't talked about yet is uh listening to the pulse. So the 12 meridians show up on the pulse, um, listening to both right and left side. And then we can also look at the tongue, the top of the tongue for organ system stuff. So that was like the old days imaging. And then after you do a treatment, you can re-listen to the pulse to see what's shifted and changed. And that can be within a treatment with we can start to see those shifts. So that's one way. But again, how did they know to like put a needle there and then listen here? It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Just the way you were describing how all these systems are interwoven, it seems like there's a blend of like modern science and knowledge, but also connecting sense of spirituality and mystery, but and then uh connecting that to the body. So there's like such a great blending of all of these traditions, be that modern, ancient, and then like the body that so school must have been super fascinating to learn all this.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Never-ending learning for sure. Yeah. And that's one thing that I kind of appreciate. Like in my master's program, we really studied like the correspondences and how things show up in nature can show up in the body, and how emotions can affect the body. And then through my doctorate program, that's where all the evidence-based stuff really started coming in. So now I get to see it kind of from both lenses of like ways that I've learned before are now being proven through the science, um, which has been interesting brain shift for sure. Because now I can have learned to actually be able to explain it in what feels like two different languages. Kind of that mind-body science and then science science.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah, and how they're both coming to the same conclusion and in a way like supporting each other.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

So your doctorate is an acupuncture or what's Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Is that um are there not many programs of that, or is that something that's not very common?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

It's become uh more prominent, but to be able to practice acupuncture, uh, minimum is master degree.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Um, and then yeah, the doctorate is um just upper level if people want to, but it's starting to trend, I think, more in that direction of more people going through school, getting it, because a lot of PTs coming out of school are get have their doctorates now and chiropractors too. So I think it's to help kind of match match these other physicians in the world.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Okay, makes sense. Awesome. Going back to sports, like how would you say acupuncture uh helps the athlete for performance or a recovery? Like, what do you see or what are you working with there?

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah, so if someone's coming in specifically for sports, if it's more performance, I might do some muscle testing or some length testing to see if they're kind of moving through optimal ranges. I might look at posture as well. And then based on that and their goals, we might pick a plan. Let's say, for example, like I've had this with some of my CrossFitters, they're not injured, they just want to perform better, get better kind of ranges of motion, and move more freely through, say, like hinging kind of gets a little funky sometimes. So I might do some testing uh for the back and might do some testing for the hips uh to see if all those muscles that are supporting the hip girdle on the low back are functioning well and strong. With athletes, it can be tough because they're so strong that they have enough muscle fibers firing that they can overpower things sometimes. So knowing how someone functionally moves is also important. So if I know like someone wants to say squat better, have more explosive, I might be working on things on the posterior chain. So like glutes, hamstrings, calves, those muscles that give us like more firing to be able to propel us and push us forward.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Okay. So you can like tailor uh like how you're gonna help someone based on their goals and and whatever they're doing in their sport.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah, everything's about what the the patient wants who's coming in. And then it helps in recovery too. So make sure that again, blood flow is getting to the area. We're decreasing inflammation as well. Length testing, again, is big on just making sure that they can move through ranges of motion freely and also strongly and stable. And then also looking at other things outside of that, like digestion and sleep. Like, are they digesting well? Because in Chinese medicine, our food makes up our muscles. And then are they getting enough sleep? Like, are they even recovering well? So that's the kind of big picture global aspect that we're looking at in like performance too. It's like, yeah, you can you move well, but are you also recovering well?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

So you're not just asking like how their body's doing, you're asking like how are they sleeping? Like what's their diet like?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

How they're pooping. How they're pooping, yeah. Yeah, how they're pooping, how their digestion is, how their appetite is, sleep, even stress. Uh, and they're are they having anxiety, things of that nature too, all playing a factor.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

So it's really a whole body medicine, not just this local issue.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, yeah. Have you ever had someone come in with like uh like a knee thing or just a kind of like a mysterious muscle pain, and then there's been like an emotional release?

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yes, yeah, those are always the interesting ones. I can kind of treat in two couple different lenses. And with the orthopedic style treatment that I do, if something's not getting better, I'm always like, hmm. Because usually after I treat someone, their range of motion is better, their strength is better. Pretty quickly, it might not hold forever, but like we know we're on the right track. And so if that's not happening after a few treatments, then I'm like, hmm. So I had this uh gentleman come in, he was having a lot of shoulder pain and super sensitive to needling too, even really sensitive to massage. And I thought that was all really interesting. And so I treated him twice a little bit more orthopedically, and wasn't quite seeing what I wanted. So I asked him, I was like, Do you have a lot of like grief in your life? And he's like, My whole life has been grief. Because and the reason that I asked that question is the channels that pass through where he was having his shoulder pain in the front and on the side, the lung channel in Chinese medicine is associated with grief, and the large intestine channel is associated with letting go. And I was like, huh. Well, we're gonna try something different today. And so instead of treating him orthopedically, I treated him more from a channel perspective and worked on clearing the channel. And along each channel, there are certain points that help move emotional stuff. They're called low points. So in Chinese medicine, the blood is really connected to emotions. And then there's G-clef points, which are points that are for more acute issues, and so you can treat locally and then you can treat distally, uh, and then some points along the way. And after that treatment, he was like able to do everything he wanted to do in the gym again. And it was it was just a simple channel clearing on the channel that has to do with letting go and the channel that has to do with grief.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Wow, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

So those are always fun.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yeah. That's like a a mystery and like a puzzle to solve, but like in therapy is very similar in that it's almost like we have two, two like brains, or there's the brain inside of our and our head is like the brain brain, but then our body is like its own nervous system brain.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

And so a lot of times like unprocessed memories or trauma is not necessarily stored up in the traditional brain, but it's stored in the body somehow. Yeah. And so what you were just explaining reminds me of that.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Same in acupuncture.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

And it's usually we'll see more of like the chronic pain issues can be, at least in my experience, I think a lot of the chronic pain stuff can be more of that emotional base. Where, like with athletes, we kind of know if something happens acutely, like they slip and fall or whatever. We kind of know where that came from. But if these are these long-standing aches and pains, or these aches of pains that are worse with certain emotions, and also on the channels associated with emotions, then it gives us a more clear sign of like, hmm, maybe this isn't like your QL muscle. Maybe this is just you've been bracing a lot for an extended period of time because you've been in fear, which the channel that goes through the back body is associated with fear. Maybe we need to work on moving things along that channel so the fear can decrease and your nervous system can feel supported, and then that low back pain can start to ease.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

So fascinating how when you focus on the emotional origin, then the physical, like the original physical manifestation. Totally. Then like gets healed as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Like the shoulder, yeah, like the gentleman with the shoulder that you described. Totally. Do you ever have people that come to you with the primary complaint is psychological? So they come to you because of their anxiety, they come to you because of their like depression and mood.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Yep. I support all of that. Anxiety, especially, seems to be most common one that comes in. Um, but PTSD as well, depression. It's really interesting with the anxiety of just seeing uh calm over time and being able to tap into that a little bit more. And what's really interesting too is like people learn how to breathe. They're like, oh, it's like I've never like taken a deep breath like that. And it's it's just such an interesting comps concept to me, because uh from my understanding, like especially like the way anxiety tends to show up in my body, it tends to be like kind of chest up. So it's cool placing the needles and then watching the breath change. And so like you'll see people's breath shift from just like being in their chest to being able to drop down into their belly, or even just seeing the muscles, like uh, you'll see like a lot of rigid shoulders and just like seeing the traps just like relax and soften. Or like uh sleep too is a big one, like people who can't sleep, and then I hear them snoring in their other room. It's that's like my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

They come in, they're on the table, and they fall right to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Nice. So you're like watching in the moment uh changes happening before your eyes, like in one session.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

And then the pulse too. You said you like if someone comes in with anxiety and then you check the pulse, and there must be some certain way that that that reflects the anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

And yeah, I usually rely for myself for myself. I uh tend to rely more on their description of where they're feeling things in their body for that. Because in Chinese medicine, anxiety can come from different aspects. It can come from like the heart, and which we might see a little bit more traditional anxiety, but it can also come from um the earth element or the stomach on like this constantly processing. It can come from the kidneys, which is the fear-based stuff, where it's like constant anticipation or fear of something. So it's like not just looking at the word anxiety, but then taking a next next step further. Where do you feel it? How do you experience it? And is there an emotion that might be tied to it or makes it worse? Like, how does it show up for you?

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Because I could treat five people with anxiety in a day, and each one I would maybe use different points depending upon is it coming from this like over again, overturning of just thought, thought, thought, thought, thought? Is it more physical, racy heart, or is it just again, constant anticipation of like what's to come? It'd be three different meridians, I would use.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

So it's not just like one set treatment for one set symptom. It's it's very nuanced and and very personalized to the client in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Yeah, every every treatment's very individualized.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

And you have such this great uh complement of also being a yoga facilitator trained. How how do you see yoga and acupuncture like complimenting each other?

SPEAKER_02 41:02

I think that they both complement each other in the way of that mind-body medicine. I think uh, at least in my own experience through my own yoga practice, having that time and space on my mat allows me to better identify what I'm feeling in my body. And with that presence that I feel through that, I also know when I'm due for an acupuncture treatment.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

And so I feel like both of these medicines together have, or both of these treatments together have helped me learn my own body and has helped me learn how I feel when I'm in like the flow, and then when I'm not in the flow. So I think they're just different avenues that can lead to the same, to that same mind-body presence.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Okay, that makes sense. And obviously very complimentary, and then one can almost like notify the other, or one can kind of compliment the other and and what needs to be worked on.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Mm-hmm. And yoga is kind of I like to prescribe in a way yoga practice sometimes to some of my acupuncture clients is something that they could do on their own daily. You know, it's hard to get acupuncture treatment every day, but we can, you know, help regulate our nervous system every day with our yoga practice.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Nice. So you can give them some like some tips of how to move their bodies that will compliment the work that you're doing on the table per se in acupuncture.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Exactly, or some pranayama or breath practices of like uh, you know, if they need to like drop into relaxation, having a longer extended exhale count versus their inhales if they want to feel more balanced, even breath on the inhales and the exhale, or even count on the inhales and exhales, just simple things like that. Or just spending time breathing into your belly, breathing into your diaphragm.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah. I think people underestimate the power of the breath.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

And like how so many of us have forgotten just how to breathe during the day. Totally. And so, yes, just reminding people about the nature of the breath and how powerful it is and what a great tool it is to come come back to.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Have you ever found yourself holding space for perhaps like experiences or that someone has never shared before, and just for some reason things lined up and you tapped into something with with their body that allows them to release something psychologically, and now you're almost uh like holding space in a therapeutic, psychological way for them.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah. Yeah, that definitely happens. Uh sometimes before even the the needles replaced. That I think any time that and I hope this is what people feel in my practice, but I think any time that people feel safe and support it can lead to those options. Opportunities sometimes. And then sometimes it happens on the table with the needles in either a wave of emotion or tears. And sometimes people don't have the words for it or the why behind it. Not that we need that. It's just energy moving. So yeah, that can definitely happen. Sometimes people will shake too. They'll have some of that kind of somatic release as well on the table.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Awesome. Everything that you just described parallels so much of what happens in the academy and space too with the with the therapy and how there's certain experiences somatically or certain manifestations with movements that again don't need to be understood, but just need to be supported and like trusted, versus like, like, why is this happening? It's like, all right, this is happening. Like it's coming up for a reason. Let's let's be with it.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah. I like to think of acupuncture sometimes as like glorified plumbing. It's like you're like clearing out the pipes, you know, and like sometimes if things have been stuck for a while, like I treated a woman, she'd gotten in a car accident and had frozen shoulder from it. And uh I had needled her shoulder and she uh had this outburst of emotion. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like what did I hit? Like, and I'm like going through my brain, I'm like, okay, there's nothing there that like I couldn't hurt, but like worst case scenario, right? And I'm like, I am so sorry. She was afraid to come in in the first place. She was scared of needles, but she was in so much pain. And then I needle this point, and there's this outburst. I'm like, oh my gosh, why am I acupuncture? I just need to quit, like, whatever. Just going down a rabbit hole. And I checked in with her the next day, and she felt the best that she has felt in months. She had energy, she felt joyful, her shoulder felt better. And I'm like, like deep breath. I'm like, okay. Just a reminder that these like emotional releases can happen and we don't have to go worst case scenario, especially when we're coming from this place of like love and support and holding. And sometimes the body can just feel safe enough to release what it needs to release, and we can just move, move from there.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

It's like some sometimes in the moment we don't understand what like what's happening. It may seem like like, oh no, like what did I do, or what have I uncovered, and how's this gonna affect the client? But just like you said, if there's a safe container, then then typically those things end up being something um like very useful or productive, or um like a release happens emotionally that they've been holding on for for so long. And what do you think the body is like constantly trying to remind us of, or what's what's it like trying to communicate to us? I don't even know if that question makes sense, but like is there something that when you're working with someone is just kind of like the natural way in which the body wants to be, or something it wants wants us to know or be reminded of?

SPEAKER_02 47:17

I feel like the body is trying to guide us back to balance and homeostasis. Uh it might feel uncomfortable for us, especially when we put our stories to it. But I think it is trying to guide us, guide us back and just kind of give us these little reminders of like, hey, like pay attention, like check in here. I'd like to believe our bodies are trying to help us, especially if we're trying to support our bodies. Now, if we're not taking care of our bodies, it might be a different story. But I think if we're listening, I think it tends to be a little bit quieter. And um the body is so amazing and the way that it can heal itself, and you know, that's a lot of the times. If you like look at, you know, what acupuncture does, it it helps us, you know, helps it heal the body heal itself, right? And it's like we have all of this beautiful medicine already within within our own bodies if we can support it. So yeah, I think it just it's trying to be back to balance as best it can.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Okay. All right. Yeah, thanks for understanding my weird question there. But that like your answer almost made my questions seem uh a lot more logical.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Yeah, and I know that's uh that answer can be really tough, especially if people like have autoimmune disease where it feels like their body is attacking itself or like chronic pain, it's like, you know, don't tell me my you know, pain is uh is helping me kind of thing. And I can understand that too, and can hold space for that too. And I think at the end of the day, it is trying to tell us something.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

There's a message just being conveyed.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

A lot of people are pretty hard on their bodies and don't give grace to their bodies and get angry with their bodies. And this comes up too, and with with the ketamine work, is a lot of people when they have an experience where they leave their bodies with the with the ketamine, um, and sometimes with the higher doses, like they're really gone. Like they no longer feel like they have a body, and there can be this fear uh of death essentially, like, oh gosh, like I don't have a body anymore, like what's happening? So there can be this fear uh of of of death and mortality, and this comes up with so many psychedelics, right? And one of the the the teachers that psychedelics helps us kind of like understand is our our relationship with death. But what I've noticed is when someone has that experience, and then when they're coming back into their bodies, they're just so grateful to be back in this body that they once were like, uh, my body's like feeling me, and I or I don't like the way it looks, I don't want like the way it does this, and for them to be embodied again, they're like, Oh, thank God, like my body. Uh and so it's cool to see how that their relationship to their body changes, and then they're like, I'm sorry, I was so hard on you. Like, you know, you've been holding me up since day one, and um like the heart's been beating since the moment it started, and it hasn't failed up until this moment, like it's always going no matter what what I'm going through, it's always it's always there for me.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

So I think you answered your own question then.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

But your answer helped me like think about that. So it's so cool how we're essentially doing some so much similar work on on different different philosophies and approaching it differently, but we're like meeting in the middle in in such a cool way.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Which I think is what drew me to uh speak with you in the first place, and then to have you come work with uh some of our clients and work with us here in the in the building, offering like yoga and and your services.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah, and I think uh acupuncture and yoga both supports the ketamine space or the psychedelic space in a way of the the helping people feel grounded and calm, especially integrating after a journey or even like the anxiety that some people might feel leading up to a journey. I think it like uh I had said earlier, like giving people some yoga or some breath between acupuncture sessions to support their their bodies, you know, acupuncture or yoga to support journeys, you know, before after, just to get that reminder of like you're grounded, you're safe, we can be calm. Because uh, you know, a lot of times people will come in for acupuncture and they're like, you know, how many sessions is this you know gonna take? And it's like, well, how long have you been this way? Or like, how long have you been dealing with this? You know, it's not, I wish it was magic, but it's not, it's just again reminding your body uh that what homeostasis feels like, what calm feels like, what ground it feels like, what regulate it feels like. So I think it does a good job of uh supporting your work too in that kind of before and after space.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Especially because we're putting needles in the body and we're making people move through their body with the yoga. So it's you're kind of embodied when you're getting poked.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Yeah, it makes sense. Ideally, I feel like every psychedelic journey should be supported with like psychological integration, but also like body somatic integration. Either that'd be having a journey and then having like traditional body work massage or having journey and having acupuncture. If I could design it, it would always be paired with some sort of somatic healing.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

That's one of the things that drew me to your work and understanding the like on the retreats that we've we've done together, like seeing how you had already had that piece, that embodiment piece tied in with like massage and stuff. I think it was like this guy knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, so for people to kind of understand, we've had some retreats out on Folly Beach, and uh, Tiffany has come the morning before the medicine journey for for the group and has led the group in a yoga practice before people go into the journey. And I feel like that has just set the tone to be first of all to feel grounded before going into the space because there's so much anxious energy and excitement that can be there before venturing into the diving into the mind, into the psyche. And so having that that practice and offering that to clients, and people have said after doing the yoga session with you they were like super nervous about the journey and like kind of fearful, but then after after the yoga session, feeling like okay, like I like I got this. I'm I'm actually like feeling more grounded heading into the the journey.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Yeah, and then afterwards uh doing the massages, so they would have the journeys in the morning and then in the afternoon the the masseuses would come. So again, like trying to connect the whole mind, body, soul.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

It's all connected anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh I love it when we can speak to all three. And I've learned both through acupuncture and through yoga practice to like no matter where we start, whether we're starting in the mind, we're starting in the body, we're like starting at that spirit level, we'll get to we'll get to all three. You know? Even if someone's coming in, because like again, going back to like traps, right? A lot of us feel our stress in there. I know, I do. I know exactly when I'm stressed. This little guy feels like it swells up, and but like if I was just going to like get body work on that then, or you know, just get a needle in to release that trap, it's still gonna work on the other two levels too, you know. And vice versa, if it's more of a mental level thing, and like if I was going in for the stress piece, my traps are probably gonna relax too, because it it's all connected.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

I feel like you really found the art form that matches exactly what you're looking for in terms of how you want to hold space for people, right? Like there's the science aspect, there's the not so science-y aspect, which is now actually being uh verified by science, right? Like people were like, ah, like this is kind of voodoo stuff, but now when you're you know doing that point in the shin and and there's literally fMR evidence showing how it's affecting the brain, yeah. Like that's legit. Uh but also like mechanically understanding the body, like as a as an athlete, right? Like um, and then getting to help athletes. It's almost like this art form was was made for you in a way, and you guys like it's so cool that you met each other.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Yeah. I'm uh happy I followed those uh little nudges, those little yeses.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Was there anything about um acupuncture that or even yoga that you wanted to make sure that we we talked about today? I know we covered a lot of ground, but um just want to make sure there wasn't anything else that you're like, hey, it'd be cool for people to kind of understand this or or know this.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

One thing that maybe we didn't touch on is the subtlety to it. Sometimes it's not gonna be this big profound feeling shift where it's like this aha moment or whatever. And if we're paying attention, what I we'll start to see is people will be like, you know what? I found myself smiling in the car today, and I can't remember the last time I've done that. Or this thing that used to bother me doesn't have the same effect anymore, and I can just kind of flow through it. And I think it's through these subtleties sometimes that things can be missed. But then if we're paying attention, they can really be found, and I think that's the beauty of the medicine too, because it it doesn't it's not a quick fix. Maybe for some people it is, but it's just this beautiful subtlety to it, and this like knowing, I think, sometimes that people feel through the experience.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Nice. When when I think about acupuncture, there is like physically a s uh like a s subtlety to like how you place the needles. Like when I've had it done, it's like very like calm and like you know, it's not just like like putting in random, like there's a subtlety to it.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

And it's like the tiniest little point you could ever like think of. Uh and then I like how you uh paralleled that to like the smile in the car, like it's not the the like biggest thing, but just like that little thing can be huge in a way. Yeah. Well, typically, like at the end of the of the podcast, I'll just kind of like ask these fun little questions that have really had nothing to do with if that's okay with you.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Yeah, so is there any like music that you're really into right now? Any it can it could be like something you've been listening to in the past that you're back into or any new things or I love house music.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

I love clean cleaning my house to house music, it keeps me energized, and I just dance around and clean my house and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Yes, it brings me a lot of joy.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Yeah, that's cleaning the house, cleaning the house to house music, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah, any particular like producers that you enjoy or let like?

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Oh shoot, I'm so bad at names of I just I just know it. Just the vibe. I just know when it's on.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

I'm like, yes, there's one. Awesome, wonderful. Yeah, house music. Uh if Tala, my wife, for people that don't know, uh if she could have her way, there'd be house music would be on at the house all the time.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

I knew I loved her.

unknown 59:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

You know, and all you know, throw on some like variety, but yeah, if she had her way, it'd just be the punchy, punchy, punchies.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

If you could have like a dinner with three people, and this could be famous, this could be not famous, alive, dead, anyone in in your life, and you could like have them come together for for a dinner party. Like, who who would that be? And yeah, take your time with this one because I could I think uh J.R.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Worsley would be one. He uh was the main guy, did five element acupuncture for the school that I went to. I think he would be would be one because I'd love to listen to him just speak about the medicine. Probably one of these house music DJs, because that would probably be a fun mix.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:47

Yeah, yeah. Um any ancestors of yours that you wish you could have got to know more that comes to mind, or some sometimes like people will say uh my great grandma and my you know, the they didn't get the someone like that, but who knows?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah. None of that comes to mind. I'm kind of blanking on a third.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, you can bring like your best friend or or your wife can be there.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah, I'd probably yeah, I'd probably bring my wife along because she's really good at uh keeping a conversation going.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

And uh makes great food too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

What would be served for this meal?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

What would what would be like your she uh makes uh this jambalaya that I love. It's got shrimp and chicken and sausage. It's actually one of my mom's recipes that she's taken and has even increased a little bit of spice to it because I like things spicy. And so probably a a little jambalaya mix for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

Awesome. And then the last question, and you can go as deep or as light or whatever feels right to you with this one, but the meaning of life is fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

Well, after our session, uh, I think it all comes back to love.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Is that what you experienced?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Uh I was experiencing that before. I feel like uh this connection to this oneness. Uh because I've been like thinking about just like what spirituality has meant and like the purpose of why we're here. And I think it it just comes back to love and connection.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

It's all about.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Awesome. So for those who who don't know, we we offered here at Inner Bloom a group uh ketamine uh assisted psychotherapy session for healers. And Tiffany was a part of that uh a couple weeks ago. And so we had uh six healers from around the community come and have a have a group experience, and uh it was it was awesome. And so hopefully we were able to offer more of those in the coming months.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Yeah, my other uh takeaway from that is a lot of my problems were made up. Yeah, all we need is time and space and love.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

I think it was I maybe misquoting this, but I don't know if it was like Mark Twain or someone that said like 99% of the worst things that ever happened to me never happened, or something like something like that. Well, Tiffany, it's been amazing speaking with you. Thank you so much for for sharing your your knowledge and your heart and your soul. And yeah, it's been really fun speaking with you, and I look forward to so many more collaborations with you in the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been awesome.