A Publicist Roundtable: Promoting Jazz in a Changing Media Landscape

Join host Michael Ambrosino as he speaks with three veteran jazz publicists—Ann Braithwaite (Braithwaite & Katz Communications), Lydia Liebman (Lydia Liebman Promotions), and Matt Merewitz (Fully Altered Media)—about the evolving nature of jazz promotion. 

The group discusses how they build relationships between artists and audiences, adapt to media fragmentation, create engaging content in the age of AI, and measure success in their campaigns. 

These industry insiders share candid insights about the challenges of breaking through the noise and connecting jazz artists with listeners in today's digital world, while revealing the passionate commitment that keeps them going in an increasingly complex promotional landscape.

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For more from the Jazz Journalists Association, go to JJANews.org.

Transcript

Michael Ambrosino: Hello and welcome to the Buzz, the podcast of the Jazz Journalist Association, an international professional organization of writers, photographers, and broadcasters. Focused on jazz. I'm Michael Amino host for a discussion with our publicist round table, including Anne Braithwaite, Lydia Liebman, Matt Merewitz, talking about the changing landscape of promoting jazz.

Anne is the president of Brathwaite and Katz Communications in Lincoln, Massachusetts, a 20 year PR veteran. She's champion a wide variety of progressive music in the US and abroad, and is known as an elite matchmaker between audiences and unique artists. She represents. Lydia Liebman is a celebrated music industry professional with experience as a publicist, educator, radio host, promoter, journalist, educator, and musician, all those things.

She is the founder and president of Lydia Liebman Promotions, a prominent PR agency based in New York City. Matt is the founder and director of Fully Altered Media. The well-known agency specializing in the world of jazz and improvised music for years now. Matt has handled publicity for New York City's prominent winter jazz fest and vision Festival, as well as the Chicago Jazz Festival.

Welcome to the Buzz everyone. 

Ann Braithwaite: Thank you so much. Hi, Michael. Hi. Great to be here. 

Michael Ambrosino: When it comes to talking about promotion and jazz, the sense I get from talking to a lot of the people who listen to my program and even a lot of musicians who are coming out of schools, is that they don't really understand the full dynamics of everything you do, and especially how complicated it is giving the shifting demographics of jazz.

So I was curious, could you unpack what are the basic dynamics between the relationships you seek to build with your clients, and how do you accomplish that? 

Lydia Liebman: So, I mean, basically from my perspective, my job as a publicist is to get a project heard by as many open ears as I possibly can, and to make that possible by making it as easy for the other person on the other end to get that information.

So really it's kind of like getting an artist project in front of the right people and kind of just like helping them work out the narrative, help them sort of shape what they wanna say, how they want it to be said, and to sort of just work on the overall. Image of what they're trying to portray and to get them in front of people that we think are gonna be warm to it, and thus adjusting the messaging kind of as we go with each person that we're sort of pitching this project to.

I would say that in my case, you know, I'm really thinking about the relationships that I have with specific writers and editors and, and media personnel about what they like, what they're warm to cover, where they're looking to kind of like fill in the gaps. And then I look at my roster and I say, okay, like X, Y, Z would be great for me to.

Pitch to this person. I mean, it's, it's, it's a large question. Um, there's so many ways to answer it, but I mean, really it's just about constantly kind of like rejigging and working in real time. Just sort of like build these relationships essentially just 

Michael Ambrosino: to give people a platform or what we're talking about today.

So, Matt, given that platform, what's changed the most in your profession over the last five years? I'm especially curious about how has the scope of your work changed and what feels harder to accomplish and what is easier than it was just five years ago. 

Matt Merewitz: So, uh, I would say that it's just generally harder to get meaningful results that, uh, reverberate in the ways that you want them for the public to find out about a project.

We've lost certain outlets that we took for granted, and we've lost some radio. Programs that we took for granted, uh, some shows. But on the other hand, you know, you have all these, like you said, new disruptions. I mean, they're not new, they're old hat by now. But like, you know, I just watched a video of Rick Beto.

I. Talking to a, a musician, and that's media. I mean like, and I tell my artists, the media as you knew it or knew it, think you know it now is not what you think it is. It's so much more, so much broader, and it's also like a ton of citizen journalists and just enthusiasts and whatever, YouTube, Instagram, influencers, all that stuff.

It's just really. Insanely big and, and the pie is kind of like, Substack has become like the latest platform, like blogger, like Tumblr, like whatever, to have kind of in-depth music writing. And so like we just have to constantly shift with the landscape. And you know, I think that our jobs have changed. I mean, my job has changed in the sense that.

Now I'm more of a media consultant and less of a person who places stories. I'm kind of like helping shape the overall narrative and how the client should convey their narrative on social media platforms on. Through distribution. I'm like, a lot of the time I'm helping clients set up their digital distribution or like at least connecting them with distributors who can actually get them on playlists.

I feel like playlists now are almost a more important indicator of, this is relevant than the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal saying something, because it's like when somebody goes to Spotify or somebody goes to Apple Music, somebody goes to title. You need your stuff on playlist to be seen or at least featured.

Michael Ambrosino: You did a really good job talking about the changing landscape. Now, Anne and Lydia, not all promoters are the same. So how, Anne, how has your landscape changed and what feels easier, for example, than what you used to do just five years ago? 

Ann Braithwaite: Oh, that's interesting. Um, I don't know if anything's easier, but what, what's the same as opposed to what's changed is.

We're passionate about music. We wanna get the music out to the audiences, as in any way possible. We do that by through the media and or podcasters, or YouTubers or whomever is talking about the music, including plenty of sub stackers too. So we still get people in the Wall Street Journal, Pitchfork pace, those places when we can, but we also are getting people on into a wider variety of places.

So in that sense, maybe some of these, what in the past people might have thought were smaller outlets are actually getting bigger and equally important. And I would say that. Most anyone who wants to cover your client if they're intelligent and can write well and, and really have a passion for it, if you get a good review even on a, what wouldn't be, you know, not the New York Times.

We get things in the New York Times too sometimes, but if you get a good review somewhere, you can amplify that on social media. You can get it out there and some clients are really good at that. We don't actually at the moment have a social media person. I know Matt does. I don't know if Lydia does or not, but.

We don't have a social media person that works with our artists 'cause most of them are so used to DYI, doing it themselves and doing it well. That, you know, I've talked to different people, but I haven't added that capability yet. But I may, I might. 

Michael Ambrosino: Matt, you did a really good job talking about how complicated the circumference of the work is.

And so given that, and given what Anne just said, Lydia, I'm curious when it comes to what you do, do you think that best practices exist between musicians and promoters? Or does is it more variable? Is it just more organic and not something you can actually create into a static to-do list or guide sheet?

Lydia Liebman: Well, I mean, I think that the best campaigns are done organically. I mean, my entire approach to this entire business has been organically. Like I never, you know, I didn't really have any like formal training and, and how to do publicity and how to like have these relationships and how to do these things.

So for me, like my entire approach has just kind of been, everyone kind of has their own story and you have to kind of work on that story with the artist to kind of. Figure out how you wanna, how you want things to go, like how you want your campaign to go. So for me, of course, like when you do this long enough, there are certain rote things that you just kind of keep repeating with each campaign.

I mean, there are certain guideposts that you wanna hit, and there are certain sort of like templates that you are kind of following, you know, just to guide you through it. But I mean, I know that personally, every campaign that I'm doing, I'm kind of just looking at it from the ground up. Like, all right, like what are we.

Where is this going to be the best, uh, accepted, the the best? You know? Um, what kind of media are we going after? What's the tenor of the press release that we're trying to do? Are we putting a lot of story? Are you putting less emphasis on the story? I mean, everyone kind of has their own thing, so I don't really think like a size fits all approach works, especially specifically when we're dealing with jazz music, which has so many nuances and there's just so.

So much to dig into. I do find that some of my colleagues in other genres, maybe they can do a little bit more of a paint by numbers type of thing. But for me, I've just never really found that to be the most effective way. So yeah, there are certainly best practices like there is for anything. But I really think that for, for me at least when I'm coming into a campaign, I'm really kind of approaching it from like a singular perspective about alright, what are like the very specific things here that we can work through.

And just to sort of piggyback off of what Matt and Ann have said, I mean to me. Like getting something in the Wall Street Journal is amazing. What you do with it though after is what this is all about and it's really about what is all the work we're doing for you? What's the point if it's all paywalls or you can't even really like read it freely.

It's up to the artist or the label or their management. It's up to everybody as part of the team to amplify that, to make it worthwhile. Which I guess then leads to like the whole thing of, what's the point of this anyway. But I guess the whole, I guess that's a whole other like extra. Substantial conversation that maybe will or won't get to, but it's just sort of like, what's the point of it all?

You've gotta make it work for you and make it work for the purpose that you're trying to, to fulfill. 

Michael Ambrosino: And also being organic. You can never know. So sometimes the media campaign can blow up in a way because someone gets on a tiny desk concert, or all of a sudden their album gets onto the the feral show or whatever, or they get a Grammy nomination because it's unpredictable.

You can never know when something might simply explode with popularity, and all of a sudden your job is being done for you. I wanted to get into the weeds of what you do, and I came up with the following, um, subject matter that we can talk about because you guys are facing so much disruption in your profession that I was curious to get your feedback on all of this.

How do you create content? How do you adapt to trends? How has media fragmentation played a role in what you do? What are some of the strategies you use to break through the noise? How are attention spans shifting that affect how you engage people? And something that Matt talked about, or you actually all have now, is how do you measure success?

So if we start with content creation, Matt, do you find that it's getting harder to create engaging content to pitch to outlets and in any way his artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence changed how you create content in your work? I. 

Matt Merewitz: It's really interesting that you brought that up because I am using AI a ton right now in all kinds of different ways.

I haven't really gotten into generative AI yet because I really, I'm a little scared of that, but like using AI for writing, using AI, for putting together a basic pitch and then refining it from there, using AI to dart the kernel. An idea for a media plan even, or a. Social media plan, kind of putting certain guideposts on the table and then embellishing with that, kind of tinkering it once you've gotten the basics of, you know, what AI can kind of do for you.

Also, AI is totally dependent on what you input into it, right? What you like tell it to do. So you could be really, really specific. I mean, I've written a client press release in literally 19 minutes using ai, like literally, and, and it's, it looks good. It doesn't look like AI wrote it. Also, Leo Srin recently started working with a video platform where it automatically, AI just generates, uh, subtitles underneath.

It just puts his subtitles under him, and it also manages to find the most poignant parts of what he talks about in an interview. The AI can tell when a person becomes the most animated and it can like select highlights of an interview to actually put together a highlight reel of something. It's like, it's crazy.

We just have to figure out new ways to convey this information. That's not email, email, email, email, email, email. It's just like no one can manage all the email that they're dealing with right now. So yes, we have to use ai. We have to use all this stuff to kind of figure out new ways of doing things. I started a substack, you know, because I was frustrated that my voice wasn't getting out there enough, and I was just pitching and it was just like very one dimensional.

But now I can be like multidimensional and do a lot of different stuff. And anyway, so yeah, that's, that's my answer. 

Michael Ambrosino: So, I mean, Ann and, and Lydia, when it comes to adapting to trends, how do you navigate and understand what those trends are? How do you take traditional or new skill sets and apply towards them?

And then when do you know when you've hit that perfect pitch so that all of a sudden you are taking the trend and taking what you're trying to do, Ann, and it's like, oh, that makes sense. 

Ann Braithwaite: I'm not thinking, I mean, I'm not thinking as much in trends. I'm thinking about each project and sometimes you have a few projects that can, you can put together to say, Hey, these are all amazing new female harpists that are doing something interesting.

I take each project I do. I am doing it pretty much on a very personal and very like organic, as Lydia said too way where I'm talking to. I still use the phone and call journalists Sometimes a lot of people don't do that, but a lot of people like to talk on the phone rather than get more emails. So I'm still calling up people and saying, Hey, what about this?

Hey, did you hear this? So I'm, I'm not following the trends like that as much. I'm following the people. That sounds a little weird, but I'm, to me it's about who's interested in what and how do we can match that with the. Writers and podcasters and YouTubers and people like that, and sometimes it's part of a trend, but I still think the personal relationships are key.

I. 

Michael Ambrosino: Are there any trends, Lydia, that that, I mean, I know that you really worked the Grammys hard. I know that the catalog of artists you have is exceptionally diverse. You have a core of writers that do a great job summarizing complex music in a very short period of time, and you're out there on every social media platform.

So are there new trends that basically you've been absorbing that it become especially profitable for you in terms of managing the work you do? 

Lydia Liebman: To kind of like take what you're saying and kind of rejig it. I mean, for me it's like I'm paying attention to the news like all the time and like we all are, I mean, we live in the world, so I'm constantly aware of like what's going on.

I'm very lucky, you know, you said it, my roster is big and it's, it's diverse, eclectic. So at any given time, whatever's going on in the world, there's a good chance I've got a project in the past six months, or coming up in the next six months that hits on some sort of touchstone about that one that comes to mind right now.

It's like in April I'm working this project by Chicago drummer Gus. Davo Cort called The Crisis has no Borders. And like that's about, you know, inspired by the climate crisis. Like that's always unfortunately going to be pertinent. It kind of comes down to like, how do you take a project like this and make and distill it down so that it's palpable to people that might be interested in that topic.

So I'm kind of chasing trends, kind of like on that end. Um, you mentioned the Grammys. Yeah, we attend Grammy nominations this cycle. I mean, all of those campaigns were way more Grammy campaigns than that, you know, that didn't result in nominations, but each of those campaigns. We're all like communication based, assisting our clients in lobbying efforts to create personal relationships with voters.

I mean, that's a whole other discussion, but it's like the point is like kind of like meeting people where they're at. Like where are the voters that we're trying to reach? Okay, they're in this particular platform. We communicated in this way because I know that I'm gonna share that with my client and they're gonna be able to do that.

But from like a content-wise perspective and from like the actual, like getting actual coverage, I think it's about. Taking what we have and just again, constantly rejigging it and reworking it so that if I wanna pitch somebody who's a climate writer, but they know shit about jazz, at least I can come to them with this like full stack deck of like, you know, I only take on clients that really know really other shit together too.

So, you know, hopefully if I have somebody coming to me with like an involved project, I've also got statistics to back it up. I've got things like evidence that I can share. So it's not so much like DFL Major seven, it's more like. Oh, like, you know, this particular, um, or part of the world is having a, a climate issue because of this, and this song talks about it is inspired by it because of X, Y, Z.

That's really how I'm more think about like the trends. I'm trying to sort of like, yeah, trying to like work it into the fabric, because the reality is like with everything going on in the world, you mentioned it in your question, the media consolidation, that's. Going on. You have to operate that way. At least I feel like that.

'cause otherwise we're dead in the water. You know? I mean, we're competing with everything else going on. So that's how I think about it. 

Michael Ambrosino: What's great about your answer is it sounds you're competing with everything, but you're not trying to compete with everything at every level. So going back to something you said, Matt, you alluded to it, to how you can break through the noise.

You can do something that is innovative, that uses existing and traditional technologies to carry some of the more thoughtful stories and really make them poignant, really make them stick. So can you gimme an example of how, even though. Media is fragmented even though we're supposed to be approaching everything.

You came up with an innovative way to tell a story that was different for you than something you would've done three years ago. 

Matt Merewitz: Right now I'm working on like a mini documentary type video for Instagram and YouTube shorts and TikTok, in which we kinda like tell a story of an album through the voice of the various participants in the album.

It's basically like an EPK, but we're distributing it. In like short, uh, digestible snippets through the course of an album campaign. So we're talking to, like, this pertains to the Marshall Allen release that we announced today. And so we're talking to the members of the War on Drugs. We're talking to a member of Yola Tango.

We're talking to James Brandon Lewis. We're talking to Chad Taylor. We're getting all of their take on Marshall Island, what it means to play with him, what it was like to play with him. All that stuff and we're kind of building a narrative through video. I was just talking to another publicist yesterday and she told me she does video storytelling, which is basically making digestible EPKs that talk to people where they're at.

They talk to people on. Facebook, on YouTube, on TikTok as publicists. For better or worse, I just, I see so much declining traditional coverage. We have to morph into something that is relevant to actual people. I just see diminishing returns with traditional media, and I still offer the traditional media because to, to a lot of clients it still matters and, and it's still meaningful, but like I try to see the bigger picture here, and that's kind of what I'm talking about.

Michael Ambrosino: So Anne, when when I think of your work, I really think of rich storytelling. So many of the artists that you deal with, many of them are off the beaten path. They're not necessarily a Christian McBride, right? That doesn't mean that they're any less prolific, and that doesn't mean that the subjects that they're trying to dig into aren't complicated and rich.

So when it comes to attention span, how do you adapt strategies to take wonderful artists and capture them in such a way? That allows people to settle and absorb and embrace the story you're trying to tell about them. 

Ann Braithwaite: Well, I think just, that's where I'm on the phone or I'm doing a short note just saying, these are the things you might be interested in.

Listen to this, clip, this track because X, Y, or Z. Um. I'm thinking about the whole artist. I'm thinking about the whole story and I'm thinking about who's, like Lydia was talking about before, who's the best one to tell this story? Who's the best, you know, which journalists will like this? Um, I. In terms of distilling it, I just use my gut and just talking to a lot of people.

I, I have a different approach I think that I, I probably should learn from that, but I, Lydia too, but I'm also, I do it a certain way that's very personal and I, it, it seems to work for my clients since people like Patricia Brennan, who is the number one in the Francis Davis Jazz critics poll last year around pirate clastic and things like that.

So it's a matter of finding the people who. Generally like that kind of music and taking it out there from there. So it's, in my view, it's, I'm not thinking about techniques as much as I'm thinking about people. And I know, I mean, you know, we have tech, we have press releases, we have short, a short link for people if they just wanna hear a little taste of it.

When we first send something out about an album, we use a, you know, a short, either a SoundCloud or a short video, just like an EPK or something short so people can kind of get a taste of it. In terms of pitching, I do it differently, I think, than, than some people. But 

Michael Ambrosino: anyway, it's Lydia. I'm gonna, I'm kind of gonna throw that question back to you.

'cause I thought, you know, Taylor Ixt got a Grammy award this year for plot armor, and the beauty of that album is how many hooks are in that album to draw people from a wide circumference of styles and music that they might appreciate to be like, oh, jazz is cool. Jazz sounds like rock. Oh look, there's the vocalist from the Rolling Stones back in the eighties.

So when it comes to the promotional. Techniques that you use with with your staff, what kind of hooks might you use to grab people's attention span so that they'll spend that minute just diving into one of your clients' stories? 

Lydia Liebman: I mean, I'm literally pulling on any single thread that's loose. Like I don't care what the hell it is, I'm pulling on it.

So like for instance, like Jeff Coffin, I've worked with Jeff Coffin for many years. It's like, you know, we have an entire built-in audience with Dave Matthews band. Now are they gonna be like running to buy like his next record? Mm. Stylistically probably not. You know, there's a lot of differences there, but like, just even that door cracking open just ever so slightly.

It's like with Jeff, it's like there are other outlets that I can pitch that I can't go, I can't pitch other clients to, because even though his music isn't aligned with like the jam band scene or like isn't necessarily aligned with what he's doing with DMB, because we have those connections that already exist, it would be foolish for me not to pull on those.

Threads. So, you know, I'm basically always looking, you look at Taylor as a good example, like definitely like Lisa Fisher has her own audience from Cultivated from years. She has the documentary. You know, I had the same thing when I worked with Joe Lawry. It's like we have that 50 street from stardom, you know, which came out so long ago.

But it's still such an important document of that particular thing that I'm always pulling on those threads. I mean. Uh, you know, I, I think that we're always just trying to do that. So for me, I'm really kind of looking at it from, like, again, every project is different. My process as far as like how I, how I go about stuff and the way that I work is certainly a process and has gotten more and more narrow as I've gotten better at what I do.

But when it comes down to like, what am I. Actually like pitching to the people. It really, it, yeah. It really depends. Every project's got those and I'm basically looking for like the lowest common denominator that I can start with. My husband and I like his, my husband Willie does our Latin stuff. We'll listen to, you know, let's say like, you know, Spanish Harlem Orchestra.

Or we'll maybe take a project that's pretty like salsa and not really that lot of improvisation per se, and really like, not really in the Latin jazz realm. But again, if I can open the door with somebody who's interested in covering A SHO, and then I can come back to 'em with like Gonzalo Rub later, at least I've kind of like established that baseline and been like, look, there are some similarities here.

Although it's different. Why don't you give it a shot? And a lot of the time. If you've treated them well and they had a good time, like, you know, working with me and like they've enjoyed it, they got what they needed, they'll say, screw it. I'll go in, I'll, I'll give this a shot, I'll write about it. You 

Michael Ambrosino: know, what's funny about that is you just, you're using very traditional models to engage people and their trust where all of a sudden attention span is relationship building.

Matt Merewitz: I don't wanna like discount PR completely. Like I'm, I'm not out here to like, it's only about ai, it's only about like, whatever. And, and all of us have spent, I mean, I've spent almost 19 years myself building my relationships with these people. But the problem we're faced with right now is like the people that we're pitching to by and large do not have.

Enough impact to get past the algorithm or to get past the, and and obviously you're dealing with jazz, right? We're all dealing with jazz. Like jazz is, is niche music, however you wanna spin it. I mean, obviously there is jazz in the music of Kendrick Lamar. There is jazz even in the music of like Cory Wong and, and, uh, I also take a list.

And like a media list. And I'm like, okay, this person would like this. This person would not like this. I'm not gonna approach this person. I know over time who's gonna like what Or like who's gonna even be approachable by what? And like Lydia said, you approach somebody always with one thing to like wet their be or whatever.

And then you kind of introduce other stuff. I'd never go to a new person and dump my whole release schedule on them. That would, you know, kind of just. Inadvisable, everything that Lydia's saying and everything that Anne's saying is how I approach traditional pr. 

Michael Ambrosino: Can we collectively go back to the idea of media fragmentation?

And I'd like you to all answer this question, but again, let's just deal with it this way. I mean, you have all done a really good job saying, look, the landscape is not like it was when we were teenagers. What is one thing that's really been challenging with media fragmentation in your careers in the last five years, for example, but also what's been one thing that's been an, uh, unusual gift in terms of the way you work?

Lydia Liebman: The best development that has ever happened is the demise of the premier. Thank God I am so tired trying to get. Five people to see it. It is like the most stressful thing, you know? 'cause you have this deadline, you need to get an exclusive outlet like that is the, thank God we're past that. I am so glad.

I, I, I, the reason why this has happened is because of the media landscape changing. It's because that exclusivity from any given outlet, like. It literally doesn't exist anymore. The last time that I set like a big, big, big, big premiere was many years ago with Bill Evan, I'm sorry, with Dave Brubeck with Rolling Stone.

I think in the end, like the premier garnered like, what, like 10 to 15,000, you know, views or listens on that YouTube video of the track. So it's just like. What impact does that really have? Yes, it's important and yes, we can then from now on say it was Premier on Rolling Stone and that means something.

But like the idea of the premier has certainly changed because it's now inverted. It's like you need it to go viral first and then an outlet will pick it up. So that's like, um, an example of consolidation and the greatest thing that's ever happened for me. 

Michael Ambrosino: So we have media fragmentation where we're seeing major news outlets cut back on cultural reporting, but we're seeing this funny renaissance about citizen-based reporting on the arts.

Do you find that there's a certain amount of watering down of the cultural curation process that's imperative to your work? 

Matt Merewitz: No, not at all. Certain critics who are on a high horse can say like, oh, these people are just like fans. They're just like fan boys and fan girls and whatever. They don't really know what they're talking about, but ultimately, like a lot of them do know what they're talking about.

A lot of 'em know better than what these professional journalists claim to know. I mean, it's. Lydia, uh, gets a lot, and Ann too get a lot of placements on this Jazz Bastard podcast. And these guys are like, I mean, they're not, they don't claim to be experts, but the fact that they're opinionated guys and like they have a strong opinion about things, it's genuine.

And people like genuine stuff, even though they're not like legacy names, they don't have, they never were with big publications or anything like that. They matter because like they're the real article, you know. Do you wanna weigh 

Michael Ambrosino: in on that? And Lydia, next, 

Ann Braithwaite: when you talk about watering down, I do see that the quality of writing, you know, forgetting the pod, the podcast and things like that.

But in terms, ofri, the written word, which is, you know, my background as a, you know, having been a journalist beforehand. I do see a lot more people who are fans, but their writing is so poor that it's hard, not, not everyone, but there are, there are people out there that just aren't putting out great content.

You can still take snippets and there it might be the most enthusiastic person. I'm not. I'm not to make trying to be a snob about it. I just feel like there is a place for, you know, the, the writers and the members of the Jazz Journalist Association are you, you guys are real writers and, and podcasters and, and everything else, and radio hosts.

I. But I sometimes get discouraged just looking at some of the reviews that come in. 'cause they're, they're nobody's proofreading that, you know, that's all gone. That, that does distress me a little bit. But at the, on the other hand, I love some of the writers that are new out there and they're, they're, they're putting, they're fans, but they're writing really great content, I think.

Yeah, like Felipe Freta Andra, 

Matt Merewitz: that's a good example of somebody, oh 

Ann Braithwaite: gosh, Jazz's great, like an 

Matt Merewitz: amazing writer. But he's right. He's really a fan. 

Ann Braithwaite: Oh, he's amazing. Amazing. You know? No, no. And there are a lot of people like that, and those people are really doing a service and, 

Matt Merewitz: but I don't necessarily agree with you, Anne, that there's overall worse writing now than there ever was.

I think there was always bad writing. It's just like the bad writing that we can see now is much more prevalent because everyone has a platform to everyone else. 

Ann Braithwaite: But I don't think that most of the magazines had, I, I think when we had more editors and things like that, there, there wasn't as much bad writing.

But anyway, there's, 

Lydia Liebman: I mean, so many, sorry, but there's so many mistakes in downbeat. Like, I'm sorry. Like they need to get appreciated. Yeah. Like, yeah, they do. Like what Anna is saying is I agree with her like so whole heartedly because straight up, like, I mean, I, I spend like half my day sending corrections, you know?

It's like every morning I get like a be of reviews and then I have to go through them and actually like, which is fine. I get it. It's part of the gig. Is right. I mean, in that, like, I definitely think like there is an o, there are oversights that are taking place more and more because of the lack of, of, of oversight.

I mean, the budgets have 

Ann Braithwaite: been cut. Obviously there there's not as much money, but it's, it's 

Matt Merewitz: really not as much the budget. Yes. The budgets have been cut because people stop paying. Right? Right. That, that is the underlying issue. People stopped paying for their media, for their news, and therefore we get crap.

We just get, we get what we deserve. Let's 

Michael Ambrosino: go to 

Matt Merewitz: the meat of 

Michael Ambrosino: this, which is, and again, if we think of everything, attention spans, breaking through the noise, algorithms, disruptive technologies, measuring success, feels like to me that it should be harder than ever before. Lydia, is that the case? I. 

Lydia Liebman: For me, it's kind of like, yeah, again, like everyone's definition of success is different, and to some people, if they didn't get a review on downbeat, it's not a success for other people.

You know, if they didn't get a review from their neighbor who writes a blog, it's not a success. You know, everyone's got a different kind of, kind of a, a, a thermometer on like, what is success for me? I just feel like a lot of like what Anne is, how Anne is operating, like a lot of it is based on vibes, it's based on, or, or your organic approach and vibes.

You know, like you can't really explain why you have a great vibe with this editor, but you just do and you get a lot of places and X because you do, you know, I mean, you can't explain it. I kind of feel that way with my campaigns. I know when a certain project has kind of hit the top and where I'm like, you know what?

I've gotten everything I can get from this. Anything else, like the artist isn't happy, whatever their expectations are outta whack and obviously like they're not gonna be happy with anything. That's sometimes how it goes down. Other times you just have to educate them about the scene and then they get it and they're like, oh, so actually like this is kind of a success considering like the state of the world, but a lot of it is really just like trusting my gut.

Lakeisha Benjamin's, one of my clients, all of the distance she's traveled in her career. I have seen that for her. So when I pitched her for tiny Desks and I pitched her for Colbert, it took me a year for that to happen. By the time it happened, we had to put a new album out so we'd have something to promote.

And 'cause of the relationship I have with her, we were able to make that happen. Right? And that is like we are going the distance together. Not all artists are like that. Um, sometimes, you know, you hit your wall and you're like, all right, great. See you at the next one. But it really comes down to like. If you can look at the project for me, if I can look at it and be like, I did my best work.

They got a lot of nice stuff out of this. I've seen their career change or could change because of what I've done to me, I'm like, okay, it's a success, but I'm definitely not sitting there like being like, okay, downbeat was a yes. Jazz Times was a no. Wall Street Journal said no. Like I'm not, I don't do that.

I don't even give reports, so I'm really not doing that 

Michael Ambrosino: reports. But I mean, Anne, for you, given the demographics of who you represent in your promotional campaigns, what does measuring success look like for you? 

Ann Braithwaite: Well, I, I work with demographics are all over the place in terms of my artists. Everything from young kids just starting out to, you know, legacy artists.

So, you know what, Don Leo Smith is one of my favorite people of long-term clients and success I. Was getting him finally getting the New York Times review that he wanted, but also getting him on the cover of Downbeat a bunch of times. I mean, he wanted some of that traditional, but also pitchfork and all these other things.

I think one thing that, that, um, musicians don't think about enough is if they're a new musician. They're not likely. They do sometimes Meki, Martin and Wood, I, we got stuff right away outta the box 'cause, but people know it's a building process and I think a lot of artists don't think about it as a building process.

They want instant results. Um, sometimes you get that even with every piece in. Place. You don't always get that. So to me, success is, I hope the artist is happy. You know, success is making, I'm a matchmaker between the musician and and the audience via the journalists. And when I can make good matches with journalists, they can write great stuff.

That helps the artist amplify their career. They take it and they do more with it. They get more bookings, they get whatever. It really makes a difference. But I would tell people, you're not necessarily going to have that happen overnight. 

Matt Merewitz: Like Lydia said, it's a vibe when you know you've gotten what you need.

It's a vibe. You know the vibe. Now, if the artist thinks the same way as you, okay, maybe yes, maybe no. But like we know how hard it is to get things and when a client has gotten a certain level of stuff, you're like, okay, this is good. There are, there's also the inverse. When you have a project that you think is amazing, that you know is amazing and it's still not breaking through.

The publicist journalist sort told me something years ago that I've never forgotten, and she's not a publicist anymore. She's pivoted her career into, you know, public management and doing great stuff. But like she told me, Matt, you are not being paid to get results for people. If you were being paid to get results, you would be a booking agent.

You are a publicist. You are getting paid hourly to do the work. If you introduce X number of people to the work, it's a long term journey. Like right, Lydia said, with Lakeisha and with Ada and Marish Schneider and others myself with Vijay Ire and Linda o and other people like that, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint.

All this stuff happens over time, but, and maybe we're the right person for them long term, and maybe we're not. Maybe they graduate up to something else, you know? Vijay won the MacArthur and got a professorship at Harvard. Now he works at Shore Fire 'cause he has the money and they're a much bigger firm and they can do things that I can't do and I can do things that they can't do and it's just different.

Michael Ambrosino: For me, looking from the outside in, what is the state of the art of the work you do? And for me, when I as a broadcaster and a jazz journalist, the music continues to experience, in my opinion, renaissance after Renaissance, like remarkable work. I, I never thought 20 years ago I'd be listening to the kind of jazz that I'm listening to today and the quality of it.

Do you all sense that the economic or business models supporting jazz that incorporate what you do are witnessing a similar renaissance? Or not. 

Lydia Liebman: Yeah. Of for me. Of course not. Um, I think like it's, you know, as far as I'm concerned, like we're dealing with the, in the music. Yes. I think that, you know, art is always alive and it's always changing and growing.

And as, as you said, I mean, the music that you hear now, I mean, I'm hearing still every year I hear some shit that I'm like, this is, where was this on my life? This is amazing. You know, and I think that that's something that never stops. Like if you're a lover of the music and you are in this. You're always gonna be finding that or not, you know, but you're always gonna be striving to find that.

As far as from a business perspective, I mean, we are at this exact moment, obviously in a precarious moment in the world. We are in precarious moment in our government. We don't actually know what anything's gonna look like because we're in this fun house that we're in. So I think that it's kind of like, you know, for me, um, I can just say this like.

I am very grateful to be so very busy. I am so grateful to be in a position that I'm turning down work I'm booked into next year. Like that's amazing for me. I'm happy to feel, I feel that and I am, you know, I am so grateful to be in that position. I do not take it for granted. And sometimes I do have to remind myself that everything can change in an instant.

And I do remind myself that when I have like, you know, 20 emails that come in over the weekend that I gotta answer about people looking for representation, I can only take one if that. Exactly. I'm not, which it's like, yeah. It's like you've gotta like, you know, I think that all three of us are very lucky that we're booked and busy and that, you know, 'cause we do our jobs well and, and people wanna work with us.

So as long as I think, like we still feel like that. This is fulfilling us, you know, in whatever that looks like, whether it's pivoting into more management roles, whether it's, you know, just steering the ship that we've been doing like I have, it's like, and like Anna is, it's like we're gonna be doing, I think this work, and at least I will until I feel that there really, really, really isn't a place for it.

And I do feel that there will always be a place for us. Yeah. Because as much as this music. This music is still gonna be here no matter what happens. Music does not die despite democracy may be dying. Oh my God. And it will always need help getting heard. And it's just like, of course the mechanisms, mechanisms will change on what that means, but for as long as like we're in this and like our heart's in it and we want.

This to be, this, to be a cultural fabric of our world, which I do. Um, I'm just gonna keep plugging away until it's absolutely impossible to do my job. But right now, I definitely don't feel like there's like a renaissance in making my job any easier, if it is definitely harder. But I will say that despite everything, I feel more excited and secure doing my job now than I did a couple years ago.

Ann Braithwaite: I agree with you, Lydia. I, I feel like I'm gonna keep doing my job as long as I feel I love what I do. I love my relationships with both my artists in the press and YouTubers and everybody, but I, and we're always finding new people to connect with that are wanting to write about jazz or, or, or blog or podcast or whatever.

But I also feel very lucky to be doing this. The only time I can imagine stopping is if I don't feel I'm helping people anymore, helping the artists. Get what they need. But I think there always will be a place for us since it, it is changing, like Matt said too, but it's, the basics are still the same.

Getting the word out in whatever way is helpful. 

Matt Merewitz: I would say that. If anything, all of the forces of the marketplace, of politics, of the insidiousness, of the streaming music business are working against us, and we are having to push against all of that might with all of our might. And like, yes, I'm grateful that I get to represent jazz.

For a living like that is crazy. Like most people wake up and go to a job in doing something that is not what they imagined they'd be doing as an adult or, or maybe it is. I, I mean, some people have that blessing, but we have like a crazy, crazy blessing to be doing this job. And yes, it is changing, but like.

There's always gonna be a place for it. Even if you, if you call it a publicist, if you call it a media strategist, if you call it a social media expert, whatever you call it, it's still valuable and artists need it because they're not getting noticed. I. 

Ann Braithwaite: I was just gonna say, the people that love jazz are some of the most amazing people in the world, in my view.

I just feel that it, it's such a strong community and thanks to people like Howard who started the Jazz Journalist Association and you, Michael, for doing what you do and getting the word out, I, it's just a wonderful group of people and that makes me, that gives me joy too. And Lydia, of course. 

Michael Ambrosino: Well, Ann, Lydia, and Matt, great to have you speak with us.

Don't miss new episodes of the Buzz. Make sure you follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. And for more on the Jazz Journalist Association, go to jj a news.org. I'm Michael Aino. Thanks so much for listening to the buzz.