Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. We're going to talk about uniforms this episode.
As usual we start with Edge sharing his experience with this kink and then something different. Instead of a "how to" segment and interview we're combining and doing a how to interview with Steve, who has taught classes on uniforms.
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
Okay, let's talk about uniforms this podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. Before proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult Welcome to full cow, a podcast about leather kink and BDSM My name is edge My pronouns are he him and I am your host. This episode we will be discussing uniforms. And there's something a little different about this episode. regular listeners know that I usually do three segments. instead. This time we're only doing two. In the first segment I will share my experience and story of uniforms. And then I'm combining the normal second how to segment and the normal third interview segment. Having an interview how to with a special friend of the podcast, one of my very best friends Steve, who will talk to us about putting together uniforms, while sharing his own experiences with uniforms as a fetish. Once again, I think it's a really great episode. So let's get started. Now leather has always been my heart, my home. But I think it's difficult for anyone to move through the world of leather and kink and not feel the particular resonance of uniforms of all kinds, although not always in unproblematic ways. And certainly, for leather folk of a certain age, leather folk of my generation. There is a particular key moment that we all experienced. And that is the TV show, chips. Chips was run in the middle sort of cop show focused, however, on the California Highway Patrol, starring Erik Estrada and Larry Wilcox, and I can't tell you anything about the show except Erik Estrada. And Larry Wilcox had these gorgeous, well fitting California Highway Patrol uniforms. And Erik Estrada always had tight black gloves. For some reason, if you look at photos from the show, Larry Wilcox has in these weird too long too big tan gloves. I don't get it. But someone home that show, I have to imagine was queer and kinky to have designed that particular aesthetic, because it is embedded in the memories in the souls of many of us who grew up of a certain age, with a certain kink another inclination, and who saw that show. So even though my first pursuit was not uniforms, my first pursuit was leather. The seed of a uniform interest was planted very deep in me, as well as, of course, my core fetish of tight black leather gloves. So most of my early exploration was really more around leather. And then 1995 Now, let me say that my memory is funny. Or maybe everyone's memory works this way. You know, I'm, I'm of a certain age I am in my early 50s, and years kind of collapse together, you know, ranges of two to three years all become one year to me, because right now, I'm trying to remember something that's almost 30 years ago, but to my memory 9095 was a kind of landmark year for me, because, number one, I grew a mustache for the first time. And that opened up a whole new field of leather folk who were interested in me. Number two, I got into cigars. And number three, I got into uniforms. And it was through that combination that I was like some Pokeyman evolving. I leveled up in the leather community. I had access to new fetishes, new scenes, and new Delicious, delicious men. So sometime in the late 1900s, I ended up connecting with this guy who lived in the Philadelphia area. His name is Dan. He's still around. I have not spoken to him. Whoo. In decades, but I know he's still around. Dan was super hot. And one of the things that was super hot about him is he made and still makes his own leather uniforms, and also cigar smoker. And we had this really amazing sexual chemistry and I had so much fun with him. And he was the one who helped me put together my first uniform. It was from my home city, New Orleans, I put together a New Orleans police uniform. I will say things were easier in the late 1900s. In the era before 911, you could walk up to any random airline airport gate that you wanted. And you could get access to uniform things a little more easily. At that time, there were a lot of conventions of collectors who would trade patches and badges and so through down and through a friend I think he had, I was able to get the patches and I was able to get an actual New Orleans police badge, actual authentic match, which I still have as a collector's item. Of course, he also told me where to go shopping and what to get. So I was able to kind of put together my first uniform. All of this is in the very, very early days of the internet. So it's not like I could go to Amazon and just click a button. It took a little bit of work and research and a lot of sort of local shopping at local uniform supply stores. And Dan was really my entry point and uniforms really helped me understand them really helped me put together that first year. Now. As my memory serves me, imperfectly, through Dan, I met this super hot guy in New York named Bill, I think it was Bill, Bill, I hope your name is Bill. Bill, also super hot also into uniforms, also into cigars, wrote a motorcycle. And he also introduced me to breath control. He was the first person to put me out with a sleeper hold. And I loved that. And we played, you know, probably I think I played more with Dan, but I was playing with Bill. Now. As my imperfect memory serves me, Bill knew this guy, Leon. And Leon was starting this sort of club for people into preaches and uniforms. And it was called bluff. And that is how I became bluff. Seven. You know, one of the best things about being bluff seven is that I almost always win the bluff game where people are like, Oh, I'm number 203. And I like Oh, I'm seven. And I think people when they see that I'm number seven. They think somehow that's important. It's not. What it means is that I have been around for a very long time. I have been online for a very long time. And most critically, I was around and online with the right people at the right moment. And that is how I ended up bluff seven. There's nothing magical about that. So I joined bluff. And I joined with photos of me and my cloth uniform. You know, people often think like there's this big barrier to bluff because you need a leather uniform. Actually, no, you just need a uniform. And cloth uniforms can be a lot more affordable, and a lot more accessible. And that's something we'll discuss in our further segments. After joining bluff, I want to say it was a couple years after that, that I got my first actual leather uniform. And I think I've mentioned before that when I was coming out into leather, the default cultural imaginary image of the leather man, the one that I saw in art, or on bar posters, or the one I carried around in my head was a man with facial hair, of course, in a biker jacket, and chaps at some point that shifted somewhere in the late 1900s. That shifted and the default image became the leather uniform. This isn't to say that leather uniforms didn't exist. But it wasn't for me, in my experience, the default image as I was growing up in my early days of leather, but it became so and my first leather uniform was custom made by David St. DomainKeys in New York who was still around and I think still making custom leather. It had this sort of gray stripe down the side with a lighter gray piping at codpiece on the breeches. And I'm not even sure I remember the shirt that well. I do not have that uniform anymore. But I specifically remember it was my first leather uniform. And then in the late 1900s. Again, T Tino who was a letter maker. That's when I really remembered leather uniforms exploding was Tinos uniforms, and they were everywhere now granted, I was in the New York area. And that was a very local field to be saturated. But for me sometime in the late millennium, that's when leather uniforms moved more centrally. These days, leather uniform is sort of the default thing I wear. And in fact, I often bemoan in my head that I don't have shirts that aren't uniform shirts. But you know, I've tried polos, they're really hard to fit, they're really hard to get on. They have zippers, which I feel are a little inelegant. I've tried a lace I had a lace up shirt. Again, any shirt that's not buttoning up the front, you're gonna need a zipper on the side. And I always feel that's a little inelegant of a solution. And I never feel like the fit is right. But part of me certainly wishes I had more shirt options, and I will continue to explore that. But if you open up the leather closet, the right side is all shirts, and they are all leather uniform shirts, with a couple of vests and the left side is all pants, and there are a number of breaches. So that's the primary thing I wear these days is a lovely uniform, I do have some cloth uniforms. I still have my New Orleans uniform. I don't really wear it, I don't love it, I you know, because polyester fabric does not have the same appeal to me that leather has. I do however, have a CHP uniform harkening back to chips. And I had a tailored tailoring is a wonderful thing, you know, get things fitted to you. And then they always look good. And that uniform looks good. It's a little sausage, I kind of have to squeeze into it a little bit. Because you know, buddy shift and change, but it's probably the only cloth uniform, I have, that I wear. I also have a San Francisco uniform. And I have some uniforms. I've just imagined, you know, if you go shopping, and again, we'll talk about this in the next segment, you can get all kinds of patches from places you've never heard of, they have patches with bears on them and things like that. So you can sort of assemble fantasy types of uniforms that don't represent one particular actual police force, which sometimes is a really good thing to do. I think it's also worth noting that uniforms are not unproblematic in a country, in a world where there is systemic police violence against people of color. And I've seen a lot of controversy about this online. And I know I've also seen people from my generation saying, Hey, I understand your trauma, I understand systemic violence. But for our generation wearing uniform was an act of defiance. Because queers were subjected to police harassment to police violence. And so to take that uniform was a particular rebellious act of resistance. I think as a community, we need to have a larger conversation. And that's hard because, as I've talked about before, there is no singular community. There are sets of communities, we have no central governing body, we have no central forum, to discuss issues to shape, who we are, as a community aware we want to go, we have social media, which can be very fractured and very fractious, and can often not lead to conversation or consensus, but to cancellation. So I don't know how that's going to happen. But at some point, as a community, we need to figure out, what do we want to do about uniforms? Because the truth is, as King stirs we are drawn to archetypes that reflect extraordinarily asymmetric relations of power, masters, militaries, police forces, these things are often violent, often oppressive, often politically tricky, shall we say? And yet, we appropriate them. And perhaps in doing that, we reinscribe their meaning to some extent, I'm not making that claim. What I'm saying is, it's not unusual for us to play with extremes of power, and the roles that come with them. That's part of what we do. We are a power dynamic community. And that doesn't mean that we should blindly accept all roles, all insignia, and pursue that, but it means that we need to find a way to have some sort of discussion as a community. Because right now, what we have is safe, sane, conceptual, and what we have is risk aware King, and neither of those really take into consideration any sort of cultures or politics, or larger statements we want to make about who we are and who we want to be. So that might be a conversation that comes At some point in the future, for now, I have actually pulled back, some of the police see things I do particularly in my play, because I'm not quite as comfortable with them in the current climate. That's my personal decision. I do continue to wear quite a few leather uniforms. My uniforms generally don't have patches, they are fairly generic, they could just as easily be military as police. But has that remains the default position for the leather person in the imaginary it is where my heart and home is, it is where I ended up being. And for now, it's one going to be and that is my history of my personal journey in relation to leather uniforms. I hope that your own history offers you offers you joy and excitement and comfort. And I hope that you're able to navigate the sort of uniform waters, the way that serves you best, and the way in which connects you to others. Because community is about connection. And I'm very pleased to welcome a special friend of the podcast, one of my best friends, Steve, Steve, welcome to full cow. Well, thank you. Thank you. It's, it's wonderful to be here. It's wonderful to have you. So could you start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community? Sure. pronouns are he him? And when you mean how identify in the community, is that sort of my role? Or is that like my screen name and Okay, so, so I'm a I'm a top guy, I'm a domme mostly because I don't trust other people. But yeah, I'm and my screen name go by mentor dead sir on a couple of different platforms. And people might know me as a recognized officer Stevens, I used to go by that. There are still pics of me floating around on tumblr and various places as Officer Stevens. So, and that's something I think we'll want to discuss later in this segment, why you made that name change. But for starters, you know, for people who are sort of just tuning in, normally, this podcast has two separate segments, one a how to and then an interview. But because Steve's a special friend of the podcast, and because he actually teaches a class that has done so repeatedly on uniforms, we're going to combining the How to and the interview, and Steve's going to talk us through putting together a uniform and uniform fetish in general. So, Steve, go for it. When, when edge asked me to, if I wanted to be on the podcast and what we might talk about, you know, there were a couple of different things and interests that edge and I share but the police uniforms was kind of an obvious one to talk about. And I guess I want to bracket this by saying that there are there's lots of different uniform fetishes out there. You know, I am going to be talking about police uniforms, but you'll see plenty of guys that are into military uniforms, you know, fatigues and boots and that stuff, or even medical stuff. Lots of people have medical fetishes. There's even a story I heard about I didn't I didn't witness this. So if it's not true, it really ought to be years ago, I heard about somebody who wore a letter carriers uniform to a pup Mosh at a an event and so all the pups lost their minds and chased the the postal worker so there's, there's lots of lots of different ways and you know, some guys are in good and also sanitation worker uniforms, which then crossover with the blue collar, but also sort of the grungy kind of thing. Oh, yeah, you know, I hadn't encountered that but that makes perfect sense. And I'm also seeing guys that are into like UPS, you know, delivery driver uniforms and that sort of thing. Right. So yeah, there's there's also your I got your package for this package, buddy. I know. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's so there's all sorts of different uniforms, but kind of what I am into, and what I know the most about are police uniforms. So that's, that's what I'm going to be talking about here. And I I also want to you know, foreground This is that the fact that I'm I mean to police uniforms, really brings with it a lot of privilege. You know, I am I'm a 50 Something cisgendered white guy. And aside from a couple of speeding tickets over the years, I've never really had a serious negative encounter with law enforcement. So For that reason, this finish that they have, can be is safer than it would be for lots of other people, too many people can say the same that they've never had that, you know, negative series encounter. So, I do recognize that the, my interest in police uniforms is something of a luxury. And as we alluded to a moment ago, my fetish really, really got complicated in 2020, for obvious reasons, and I still remember the day I've been thinking about making a name change for a long time, but I still remember the day when I said, All right, I can't do this anymore. I gotta stop this. And so, you know, I took down my profiles for a while and and wrack my brain to come up with a new screen name. And I arrived at mentor dead sir. So I made that change. Since 2020, I haven't worn realistic police uniforms, either in public or on social media, I stick to things that are sort of more fantasy kind of things, or things that are not realistic. I don't know if that will change, I don't know if I'll get back to the more realistic stuff. Or if this is just where my fetish is, for now. And obviously, fetishes can change over time. I'm so glad you brought this up. You know, I talked a little bit in the first segment where I was talking about my experience with uniforms. And I've had the same experience. And in part inspired by you, like I was really, it really struck me the kind of integrity you had to be self reflective about that in that historical moment. So I'm really grateful that you are privileged forward and kind of indicating that this is that are and I'm also 50s, white sis guy, right. But I have seen a lot of the same privilege you have. And I do think it's something we need to think about and also talk about as a community. Agree, agreed. And, you know, part of what I really, really like about the uniform is, when I wear it in a public setting, and the reaction that I can get, and the, you know, the events of 2020. I just I could imagine too many of the people that I care about just having a very different reaction to you know, me presenting myself in public in that way. So, you know, I decided to take a step back from that, that and the fact that with the pandemic, I gained weight, so I can't really fit very easily into my more realistic uniforms. But that will change. Right weight fluctuates over time. But yeah, so I think there's a, you know, I want to talk a little bit about why, why I have this fetish or why anybody, you know, might have a fetish for police uniforms. And I think a good percentage of the audience will just get right, you don't need to be tutored on that. But the way I think about it is that much of BDSM is about power imbalance, right? Either in whole or in part there's, there's a power imbalance that I think we kind of it drives a lot of that. And police officers are invested with power, they're invested in with the power of the state. So from that perspective, you know, that they have a heightened authority that can be attractive, it certainly was and is attractive to me. If you're, if you're a DOM guy, you may be wanting to assume that power. And if you're a sub guy or gal, I guess, you you might want to serve or be dominated by that power. So that's kind of how I see where a lot of this comes from. Also, kind of, since I'm male oriented, I'm a gay man. So I'm attracted to men. Police are, again, my privilege scene, they have a role as protectors and enforcers of law and order. So from that perspective, they have a certain masculine energy, you know, they're masculine and active. And those are all things that I find attractive. So that's kind of where it comes from. For me, some of my earliest indications that I was kinky really came from my fascination with with police officers, male police officers specifically, that was really, you know, as a teenager, the first indication I had that there was you know, something a little bit different about me. And Kipps Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we're, again, we're about the same age, you know, TV and media in the late 70s in the in the early 80s. I think that stuff hits you, you know, when you're in a very impressionable age, and it just kind of gets written into your, your, your kink DNA, right. So you Yeah, that was definitely a part of it for me. You know, chips, I'm blanking there were there were a bunch of others. I remember, even in the earlier than that, there was a show called SWAT that my parents used to watch and, and, you know, I was, when that was on, I was just wrapped, wrapped fascination to the TV. And by the time I was in my 20s, you know, seeing a real police officer out there in the world, it was incredibly arousing, even, even if the guy in the uniform wasn't somebody who would otherwise, you know, turn my head, you just take a normal guy, and you put him in a police uniform, and suddenly, it's like, whoa, you know, that's, that's interesting. And when I was getting into this stuff, again, because, you know, my early 20s is kind of when I started on my leather jury, I didn't want to wear the uniform, I wanted to be dominated by the, by the cop, you know, handcuffed and bent over cruiser hood and fucked or whatever, you know, that's, that's where my orientation was. But as time went on, and I gained more experience, I just gradually and quite naturally transitioned into being, you know, a DOM guy. And so for me, that meant that I wanted to, to put the uniforms together myself, and, and be the guy be the cop. And I don't want to pause and highlight part of what you just said, which is the, you know, an average looking guy in a uniform is like, Whoa, there's something about inherently the Fetish gear we put on, that has its own sexual energy that gets mapped onto us. And it's not like, you get turned on watching a seeming uniform on a hanger, it's something about uniform plus body becomes greater than the sum of its parts. And that's just for me, it's true in leather or rubber or anything else. Yeah, it, it really does. When I put a uniform on, I am I carry myself differently. I feel differently about myself. You know, when I, when I would take photos, and I would see the photos, I'm like, Wait, who's that hot guy, right? Like, it just, it's, it's a different version of me. And it's all here, it's all inside my head, I'm the same person. But it just brings out a different aspect of myself. And it's, it's, it's intoxicating, it really is I identify. So how does someone put together a uniform. So it is it's both easier and harder than it used to be easier because of the internet, you know, the internet makes purchasing a lot of the components very, very easy. You used to have to find like a brick and mortar store that you couldn't find this stuff. But now a lot of it you can just you know order up online. But it's harder in that in the wake of 911. There were a lot of laws passed, and they really clamped down on the ability to get some of the some of the insignia, the badges are quite hard to get. Color bras are quite hard to get in some ways. So you know, it's easier and harder than it used to be. What I recommend for folks is, the first step is to decide what kind of uniform you want. Right? What's your target? What are you going to go for? And that's really about, you know, what do you like, what do you respond to? What do you think is sexy? Is it is it the motorcar like chips, you know, with with the tall boots and the leather gloves? Is it maybe a beat officer, you know, who's a little bit rumbled? Perhaps, but it's very blue collar? Maybe it's, maybe it's a detective, right? Some people, some people have a suit fetish, which I'd say is maybe a secondary or tertiary fetish for me and a detective, you know, and, you know, a tie, maybe got the firearm on the side, you know, that that's a good look. Or I've also seen more recently, though, a lot of a lot of departments will have bicycle cops, right, which which go around and helmets and spandex and they get really, really good develop thighs. So, you know, there's there's a bunch of different ways to kind of do this. Well, and I would think that it's also not just what you find sexy, but what your budget looks like that, you know, if you're putting together the motorcycle cop, then you're investing in tall boots. And that's a significant expense by itself versus just a cloth uniform with some patent leather shoes. That's a great point. The and again, there's there's my privilege, you know, I have I have the disposable income to do those things. But yeah, some of those things are much more attainable financially than others. So what you'll see a lot in the Finnish world is you know, when you When you're thinking about, you know, specifically which department right which municipality that you might be interested in, I recommend people find a personal connection, you know, mine, mine yourself, come up with a personal connection. So what you'll see in the Fetish world a lot, is what I think of is the big four departments, right, which is the California Highway Patrol, the CHP, New York Police Department, San Francisco Police Department and the LA Police Department. And I would add four and a half, because I think Chicago is also really popular. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, I really liked the Chicago department itself. I don't think of that as, I don't think that there's big four, because when I think of it, what I'm referring to is that when you if you walk into a leather store, they're very good chances that you can buy off the rack shirt with NYPD insignia on it, right, or, you know, LAPD also, you know, we have a very good local leather shop here. And I know I can go down there and buy that stuff off the rack, it's, it's very accessible, you'll end particularly if you go to an event like a, you know, an IML, or an M al or something like that, you're probably going to see three or four guys and Chip uniform, or LAPD or something like that. So, you know, I think of them as kind of being a baseline, everybody recognizes them. But I, I tend to want to be a little bit more distinctive than that. So I, you know, I, when I started putting together a uniform, I thought about cities or communities that I've spent time in, you know, maybe where you grew up, or where you went to college, which oftentimes isn't the place where you live now. So I just yeah, have some kind of personal connection, I think is a good way to go. Or maybe there's a uniform that you just think is really hot, right? Because there's all different types. And each, you know, each department has their own gear and tag. So, like there's police departments in the Southwest where the officers wear Stetsons cowboy hats. You know, that's a good look. Right, you know, boots and Stetsons or a lot of the uniform enthusiast will really like New Jersey state troopers or the Rhode Island State Troopers. They've got a really really sharp kind of halfway it's sort of halfway between equestrian and military and it's just a really sharp look. So you know, maybe that maybe that's your way and maybe finding that and Rhode Island State Trooper uniform has one kind of national awards for being the best uniform. And it's also distinctive because all of it sort of leather accessories are brown. So you know, for the gays who want kind of like a different look for nighttime pickups in brown. It's a great but really difficult to assemble, particularly the boots, I think are really hard to get, you know, do you know, Aggie boots, right? Yeah, that's, that's another good point. The Aggies you know, a lot of guys that fits into the same category. You know, a lot of people like the Aggie uniform. But yeah, I, as I always joke, I'm kind of the world's worst shopper. So I have no patience for it. I don't know how difficult it is to the Rhode Island State Troopers. Is it? The boots Brown, or maybe like like a chestnut sort of reddish ox flutters. And the Sam Brown like all of the leather is brown. Yes. Yeah. Gorgeous. And it's Serge green, with red accents that really pop. It's like the gayest beautiful uniform ever in the world. Well, that's not necessarily my take on it. But yeah, if you're, I would not suggest starting there, right? Because if you start there, you gotta have a lot of money to, to because loads are gonna be a custom order. Yeah, that's gonna be tough. Another another way to think about this is the cosplay community is really big pal. Right? People who put together costumes from their favorite media, you know, and, and there's an element of that to this. And so maybe, maybe you really like a cop from particular show. Right? Like, I'm just going to get a free associate here. Chief Hopper from Stranger Things. I could I could definitely enjoy putting together something like that, you know, and it's it kind of straddles this line between sort of, you know, media fandom and hot sex. Right. And if you have a dad bod, that is exactly the like, that's the sexualization of the dad bod. Men will be killing each other to get you in your hopper Dad. Bye the outset no question. I'll be one of them. You have in fact, just convinced me. I mean, I think I'd have to color my beard. Right because he's, you know, but But yeah, I do have the DadBod right now, so maybe I should go in that direction. Maybe Maybe Hopper after he's he's been frightened by all the five seasons of Stranger Things. Maybe his hair goes gray. Right? That would be great. Yeah, y'all y'all can't see. But Steve is polar white, pure white beard. Beautiful, beautiful, sexy Santa, but without the Santa sighs Oh, it's true. It's true. It's true. I think I've got I've got three brown hairs still in my moustache. They're hanging on. But yeah, yeah, he's like the monopoly guy. But that's not a good reference either. Because that makes you evil capitalist. I don't? I don't know. Just. I've actually never heard that. You know, I've never heard that before. Are you? handlebar mustache? I'm joking. I'm joking. I've heard that a million times. Yeah. On this on the way you were saying? Yeah. I don't know if this is gonna make it into the podcast. But I think people can tell that we know each other. The one one of the things I definitely don't recommend for putting together a uniform though, is try not to or avoid putting together one for the current city or state that you live in. Because then you if you want to wear it out in public someplace, you can really get into some extra level of trouble. So you know, an example of that. I live in Broward County, Florida. And I do like the uniforms that they have. But I've never bothered to try to put one together because it would be severely limited as to you know, when when I could wear it. Also, this is also your aesthetics. I think the Broward sheriff's uniform is ugly. It's this hideous green. But so so such as don't put together the uniform in the city you live in but if it's also put together a uniform you actually like Right? Like example, manners, super gay city, will manners also has the ugliest patches. I'm like, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to wear that. So, so put together something you love. It's your big message. Yeah, yeah. And put together something you love. I mean, if you love the if you love that CHP or the NYPD, I mean, I have an LAPD uniform, because I like the look. But that was one of the last ones that I went for. Just because I wanted, I wanted something that was a bit more distinctive. So then, once you figure out what you're going to target, you know, Google is your friend, right? And start going on down the Google Image Search rabbit hole, because you can, you can just get all these visual references about what you might, you know, but about your target uniform. And the thing with uniforms is that they are all about the details. Every single department, you know, does what what is the shirt color? What is the pant color? Does it have a stripe? Is there piping on the shirt? What's the collar brass? What's the head if it has one, you know, it's it's more than just, you know, finding the right patch. There's just like a whole whole bunch of different things. So you know, if you're a detail oriented person, which I am, and you'll find this a lot, the uniform enthusiasts is we're very, very detailed. We're we're into a lot of that stuff. So get on Google, and then just start finding all the pictures of the uniforms that you're interested in. And then once you kind of know what you're going for, and you develop your shopping list, good starting places, you know, Amazon, or there's a website called quartermaster, which is really, really good for finding the basic components. And these, you know, these things aren't difficult to or what's the word I'm looking for restricted just to law enforcement. You can buy a uniform shirt, it's very distinctive, and then it tends to be made with smaller bolts of cloth, which I think is utilitarian and has a very distinctive look. So you can get all of that stuff on on either of those two websites. And then and for the basic components. Like can you give us a list? I mean, you want uniform pants, uniform shirt, patches, maybe some sort of badge belt? Is that? Is that it? Oh gosh, do you at our I mean, it's it's a long list. I mean, for the for the basics for the first uniform, like, give me a list of things I need to put together. Now granted, I'm doing my research. It's right I could get super detailed, specific but my basics what about these components? Got Okay, so I would say the first place to start is a shirt and super easy to obtain. As I said the shirts are distinctive, and one of the reasons the shirts are a good starting Point is because you can actually wear them with other stuff. You know, I oftentimes, if I'm going out to, you know, the local, you know, cigar social, if I want to dress up that night, I could put on one of my uniform shirts and a pair of jeans, you know, and it works just fine. It conveys the right message. So yeah, I'd say sure is the place to start. As you've talked about before boots, you know, you always want to have a good pair of boots, I'll wear my, my Wesco harness boots, if I'm doing jeans and a uniform shirt, that's, that's a perfectly defensible look. Then I'd say if you're going for something specific, the pant, you want to get the pants that go with it, and then try to get if you already have or you know, the boot purchase, you want to get the right boot or footwear that goes with it. And then you want to start focusing on the what I think of as the the the tech the insignia. So badges badges are super difficult to get. You just you can't just buy them, you there will officers will retire and then sometimes a badge will show up on eBay. But it's really, really difficult. The good thing about that, though, is that most people don't even notice, right, you can get relatively inexpensive badges at a leather store or at a vendor Martin kink, Ron. And it's not the right badge, it might say special officer or it might say campus enforcement or something. And you know what, it doesn't matter. If you're at a bar, somebody sees you from a distance, they're not going to walk up to you and say you don't have the right badge for that uniform. It's just you know, it really it just reads right. So go ahead although to be fair, some people will say that but we don't generally like those people. Those Those are not people that you want to play with generally speaking. Yeah. So yeah, badge the collar brass so the collar brass I didn't know this word before I got into uniforms but the collar brass is is the the metal insignia that you will insert in the collar itself. On the what's the right word? Is that the lapel the pointy part of the collar that comes down? Yeah, I know right. Totally specific. So the leave their collar tips collar to is that really tips? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Collar tips. We'll go with the pointy bits, the pointy bits. So the the collar brass so most departments will maybe have one that says just PD. Those are difficult to get I found more recently. Sometimes you'll see a rank insignia like a corporal bar or something on there, the maybe maybe a star. I have, I'm in a uniform club and we have our own ma UL color brass that goes with that. And sometimes it's precinct numbers. So it might be an actual number. I've seen that the New Orleans uniform I put together as precinct numbers on there. Oh yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. The thing about the collar brass what I really like it and I think it's important is it's just remarkable how much that sells the look. You know what I mean? That that when your eyes scans it, it's not something that we normally wear. So it's it's really different, it's really special and it really just helps make the look. And then definitely you can easy to obtain as a name tag. You can you can get a name tag to go on your on your left. And that will you know it it could it could have your real name. It could have your scene name, it could say sir, it could say faggot, whatever you want it to say you can get those things made custom or already you know made up those that's a good one. And then the other. There's a long list. And also you eventually you want to get the belts that go with it. You know the leather like a duty belt around your waist. Those tend to come either in smooth leather or a pattern what they call basket weave and you want to keep it you know if that's basket weave, you want your other stuff to be basket weave. And then lots of departments will have a Sam Brown and the Sam Brown is that belt that goes diagonally from your shoulder down to your duty belt. And that's that's a really hard look too. I love the Sam Brown all of these things they just kind of helped to sell the the idea of the uniform. So if you had to guess like a budget for basic uniform. Let's say I'm going for pants shirt. Cheap badge Cheap collar brass Bell Sam brown patches like, what's a starting budget? Guesstimate station because I realize you're not actually doing the shopping Pac Man. Yeah. caveat that I am the world's worst shopper. I would, I guess that we're probably in the $300 range, something like that. Yeah, I just want to get your head into it. If you think about the Fetish world, you have a complete kind of head to toe outfit. For $300. That's less than one leather shirt. So it's, it's, you know, it's it's a significant investment. But it's a really solid entry. And I love that you pointed out uniform shirts are versatile, you could also then wear them with leather pants, and it has a beautiful kind of leather cop look. So I love that you told people to get that first because you really can wear it in a lot of different contexts. It's very versatile, and it's it's readily accessible, you really don't have any trouble getting those. And you know, I didn't really even mention the patches, the the leather store here in town, they've they've made their own patches, which I really, I really liked this a fourth Leatherdale. And I've been I've been using those recently, again, because again, I'm staying, I'm staying away from realistic uniforms. But you know, you can, if you're an eBay person, if you are good at finding stuff on eBay, the patches are actually very easy to get. Because I guess they're just so ubiquitous, there's a lot of them out there. So and that might be the thing that inspires you to go to one department or another department, right? Like if, if you don't necessarily nothing you have a lot of connection to but you scored patches for the Key West, you know, police department or something, go for it. That's, that's maybe a good a good one to go for. I've also found patches a great source of inspiration, because there are sites that just sell patches to the public. And you go through page after page and I was able to find one that was sort of like Bear Valley, Idaho, but had this beautiful bear on it. I'm like, Oh, I like bears, and we did the bare patch. So you can really tune into elements of the design. And also then not have to replicate your your cities. uniform. Yeah, that's, that's a wonderful point in that, you if you can get something that also has a different connotation within the Fetish world, right, you know, bear valley, whatever. But it's gotta bear, right. And bears are a standard part of the Fetish and gay world. So yeah, that's, that's a great point. You can also if you do have a leather shop, or a kink positive shop, you'll be able to get, you know, some some relatively easy stuff there, I see lots and lots of badges that you can find in those places, again, they tend to be on the cheaper side, you know, they're not really great quality. But the, you know, they're accessible. And this is, this is a place you're going it's not a bad starting point. There are specific leather, I'm sorry, take that back. There are specific uniform stores, brick and mortar uniform stores out there, which are exactly for this point right there for law enforcement there for they supply, you know, medical field and all this stuff. As a rule, they will not sell to civilians. But if you can develop a relationship with the brick and mortar uniform store, and you know, you get to know the owner, and you know, they know that you're not going to use the stuff to commit a crime, they might bend the rules and sell to you the uniform club that I'm in. I'm a reserve officer in the mid atlantic uniform League. We early on developed a relationship with the uniform store in one in Pennsylvania. And we've gotten a lot of our gear through them. And that's been a really good relationship. But I guess the thing I I'd like to get across to everybody is that, again, we are very detail oriented. But it doesn't have to be exactly right. If, if you're wearing a uniform during play, or you know you're at an event or something, just a couple of broad strokes, just you know, the badge, the shirt, it will it will say cop to people and you'll be amazed at the difference that you can get in reactions from folks, when they see you in that gear. I certainly am I love I love the intention. So could you talk a little bit about some of the risks that come with wearing uniforms? Absolutely, absolutely. And thing to keep in mind here is that I'm not a lawyer. So these are just some things that I've some warnings that I have developed over the years or you know, were given to me over the years. But yeah, if you're gonna wear a uniform, especially in public, if you're wearing it in private, there's very little risk associated with it. But if you're gonna wear it out to the bar, you might want to, you know, again, get on the Google machine and look up your local ordinances, you know things about impersonating a police officer, the what's what's illegal, you know, the red line is impersonating law enforcement. So, what you should do, just be careful if you're out at a bar or you're out someplace in gear, never tried to actually convince someone that you are a police officer. And this is even true if you're not wearing gear, because you know, cops sometimes are undercover, so you can actually get yourself in trouble. If you pretend to be a cop, you know, tell somebody that you're a cop, even if you're in plainclothes. The other thing that I am careful about is I would never wear uniform, as we said earlier, for the department of the city or the place where I currently am. So hi, I've got a very, very realistic LAPD uniform. I would never wear that in public in Los Angeles. So I know edge that you have a glorious, glorious CHP uniform that fits you like a glove. I am going to assume that you would probably not wear that in public in California anywhere. Now, although I believe I did wear it in the hotel at La claw. Although maybe not. Maybe not. I did wear it at IML. But that was in Chicago. But yes, I certainly would never go walking the streets of California in a CHP uniform. That's gonna get me in a buttload of trouble. But not just with police. But you know, a lot of people are angry at police too. So I don't need the attention in either direction. Yeah, yeah, I have. I've experienced this at claw in Cleveland, wearing you know, pretty realistic uniform going from my hotel to the host hotel. And what I would tend to do is I cover up and make sure my jacket or you know, is covering as much as I can or even you know, when I'm careful. If I am driving to someplace driving to the bar or whatever, driving for a play session with somebody, I will I will maybe leave the shirt off and just have an undershirt on while I drive. Just because you know, you can get odd looks from people or if there's a fender bender or something and you have to get out of the car. You know, it's a little bit it's not as awkward if you have a fender bender with somebody and all of a sudden this cop steps out of the car, you know, it's like that's just a conversation I do not want to have so very very careful about that. And as and as we were talking it's it's not only your hometown, but it's also if you're out somewhere you know looks I have the LAPD but I don't wear it in LA. And then there's you know, there's a bunch of of equipment that goes with cops and you want to be super careful about that too. Handcuffs. handcuffs are pretty easy to purchase. You can get them online or they have leather stores sex shops, they look great on uniform, I am often often put handcuffs on my uniform. And it is I am told I haven't verified this myself. But it is illegal in some places to Harry to carry a handcuff key on your person. Not the handcuffs in Florida, right? In Florida, it's illegal to carry the key if you do not disclose it immediately to a police officer. Because the whole idea is you don't want criminals carrying keys getting out of their handcuffs. So, so it's not illegal to just have it. But if a cop stops you you want to be like, Hey, by the way, there's a handcuff key on my keychain, my preteens in my pocket, right, like so you just want to make sure you disclose in Florida. But as Steve pointed out, use the Google machine and always check your local laws. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just a side note about handcuffs. handcuffs are great for public bondage play. I have I have put people in handcuffs in a bar lots and lots and lots of times. But you want to be super careful that you're not hurting somebody because handcuffs are hard metal is not like rope is not like leather restrain. If you're going to let somebody please set the locks. Yes, so Okay, so what that means is handcuffs, any of them that are any good. They come with a little locking mechanism that will prevent them when you put them on somebody that will actually prevent them from closing any further so that they won't get any smaller. So if somebody moves in a certain way, or maybe you I don't know push them roughly against a wall while their hands are cuffed behind their back. I don't know somebody might do that. If you don't set the locking mechanism, then the handcuffs might close, even tighter on the wrists. And I have played with people who have found out after the fact, actually did have some nerve damage a little bit, you know, for a short period of time, so your hands tingle there a little bit. So I'm even more cautious with handcuffs than I used to be. One of my hack for that is, if I'm going to go out to a bar, and I'm going to have handcuffs as part of my outfit. And I'm going to carry the key, I will lock the the handcuffs, I'll set that locking mechanism while they're just on my belt. And the reason I do that is because if I'm going to go ahead and put those on somebody, then that requires that I have the key, at least at the moment at the bar where I put them on somebody. So that prevents me from, you know, ratcheting on somebody and then be like, Oh, crap, they're sitting on my night table by my bed, you know that and that's just awkward. So don't do that. So that's handcuffs. Another one is the baton. Right? The I think I think departments have largely moved away from a wooden baton, which you know, sort of a classic look, I think they have the, the extendable ones, right. It's a very small thing, but it kind of telescopes out and then they can do whatever they're going to do with it. But I have a couple of different batons, I like the look, they're they're really good in photos, they look really great on a duty belt, I think. But they're very, very easily perceived as a weapon in a public place. So I would not wear I would not put a baton on my uniform to go out to a bar night or something like that. I will also say they are awkward as fuck, cuz like, they bump into things you go to sit and I mean, they're just, it's a good look for photos, it's maybe good in a scene, but to wear it out people are gonna be bumping into it, it's going to be catching on things in a crowded bar is just not a functional accessory. Well, yes and no, there are all different sorts of styles, I have a I have a very, very long one, I'd say it's probably a good two feet. And it's got the thing that comes off to the side that operates as handle Yes, you will bump into every every object imaginable. If you're wearing that. However, I also have one that's just about a foot long, maybe maybe 18 inches, and it's just a cylinder doesn't have any part that comes off from the side. And that does not have that particular problem. So remember, boys, mentor dancer has 18 inches for you. You know, and actually, I will say this a baton. I have occasionally used a baton as an insertable. I will say if you do that be very, very, very, very careful. Because you know, the baton is made out of wood. And the rectum is very soft. So don't do something like that unless you really, really know what you're doing. You do not want a splinter in your butthole Well, well, when I've done it, I've actually enrolled a condom on it first, because you generally don't want to share sex toys, and there's pores and everything in there. So you know, but yeah, you don't I mean, you don't want splinters. Last thing I'll mention in this in this category is firearms. Firearms. For me, I think of as very polarizing, particularly here in the US. It's a big political thing. Now, I know a bunch of people have a fetish for firearms, but other people are completely turned off by them. And I actually fall into that category. I do not like firearms, I do not think they're hot. If that's your thing, fine. But it's it's not a it's not a positive for me years ago when I was when you know when I was putting uniform together and I thought this would look really really good if I had a firearm on a holster. So I bought something which is called a blue gun that they use for training. And it's just a solid plastic inert piece of plastic, but it looks realistic. So I purchased that and I spray painted it black so it would look you know good and all that stuff. And I bought the holster and everything and I I put it on and I took a couple of photos and I'm like that looks like crap. It was sticking out at a weird angle and it kind of ruined the line on my body. And I'm like, You know what I? So that thing has been in the closet ever since. And it's I I should probably get rid of it. You know? And I will also say I mean I liked that you mentioned some people do have a whole gunplay fetish. That's a whole separate podcast if I even choose to do that because it is very polarizing. I for awhile had I still have it's a A blank firing replica. So it's metal. It's functional, but it doesn't fire actually bullets. It fires blanks. I'm uncomfortable even using that now because of the amount of gun violence in the US. i It no longer erotically signifies. For me, I'm a little disturbed by it. And it's still a safety issue, because it's any number of movie productions and proven people can still be killed by blank. So, so I'm also backpedaling and moving away from any sort of firearm or weaponry, in my play, or in my uniform. Yeah, the I think the way I think of it is particularly in the US, I can't speak for other other parts of the world that are maybe saner than we are, but firearms have just taken on a real political valence. You know what I mean? If you're, if you're holding a firearm to me, in the US, you're saying something about your politics. And it just I don't know, it's just not the right. It's not where I want to go right it to me, it doesn't say sexy cop, it says something else that I'm not I'm not into that. I think the thing that's most important about this, whether whether you have a real firearm, or whether you just got the you know, the sort of the fake blue gun that I mentioned, is I would urge you never ever, ever, ever to wear it in public. Because even if it's a fake, people don't know that you can frighten the shit out of people. You know, you can clear a room. If you're if you walk into it with with a firearm, or you know, even if things go bad for whatever reason, if the real cops show up, and they see you see that on you, you might become a target. So my thing with firearms is if it's your thing, just keep it limited to photographs. Don't take it out into the world, or or in private, right? Like if if you want to use it during play, and it's in private, fine. But it's it's something that I would never take out in public. Yeah, thanks for making that pretty clear. And I want to echo the sentiments. For anything else you wanted to tell us about uniforms putting together your first uniform, or did you want to tell us maybe the story of your first uniform? Oh, gosh. I mean, my first uniform, I met someone through recon, who had been a Jacksonville police officer. That had been his career. And then he was retired. And he was sort of famous for putting other people in uniforms and playing with them. And if some of the people who are listening might recognize this, this person from Recon, you know, there's a million photos on his recon of all of these different people in police uniforms. So I had met with him and for play one time, and he put me my first uniform, and that was that was great. And then probably about six months later, he and I were both at Mid Atlantic leather together. And there was a uniform store who was actually in the vendor part. And I walked up to them and I by this point, I had the boots and I think I had a leather uniform at this point, but it didn't have anything realistic. So you know, with the Jacksonville guy who gave me patches, he gave me the patches for the Jacksonville PD. He was there with me. And so I walked up to this vendor and I said, Okay, here's my card. I would like breaches that look like this. And I would like a shirt that looks like this. And we and I again, lazy shopper. I'm like okay, here's the belt. Here's the same brown. Here's this. Here's the that. And I put all that together right then and there and went home with it and loved it. So this was in the was this this was the early 2000s I suspect. So that was that was my first uniform. And I still have it. I can't fit into it, but they still wonderful, what a great story. Thank you so much for joining us. i You are a very special friend of mine and now a very special friend of the podcast. Dragoon, you, I will Dragoon you into more episodes in the future tapping your experience. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks for being on full cow. I look forward to the impending Dragoon. And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me please consider subscribing or you can send feedback to edge at full cow dot show. As always, may your leather journey be blessed