Cigars

Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. This time we're covering cigars.

Edge starts by sharing his experience with cigars and then provides a detailed introduction to cigars and cigarsex. We finish up with a wide-ranging conversation with Mr. Rogers from Twitter.

Related Links

• If you want a good souse for cigars, check out Neptune Cigar.
• Edge's video cigar tutorials are on YouTube.
• Find Mr. Rogers on Twitter (@MrRogersXXX1).

Transcript

Edge : 0:05

All right, let's talk about scars. This podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. Before proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult. Welcome to full cow, a podcast about leather kink and BDSM. My name is edge My pronouns are he him, and I am your host. As always, I'm so very grateful that you've decided to join me for another episode as we discuss cigars. Obviously, if you follow my content, you may already know that cigars are very important fetish for me. And I'm so very happy to be sharing my knowledge about them with you. We'll start as always by talking about my own experience sharing my journey with cigars. Before going into a fairly detailed tutorial, and introduction to cigars and cigar sex. Then we're going to have a wide ranging interview with Mr. Rogers of Twitter, covering not simply his experience with cigars, but also larger issues of fetish and content production. I'm very excited for this episode. And I'm so very happy that you've joined me. So let's get started. It is deeply ironic I became a cigar man because I grew up rather stridently anti smoking. My mother was a cigarette smoker. And as this was the 70s and 80s, she would smoke in the house. And I did not like it. And I did not like the smell. And when I came out, I did not like men who smoked anything. All of that changed when I met a guy. How often do things change because of a guy. I'm going to say it was in 1995. And if you've listened to the uniform episode, then you know that I have collapsed several significant transformations in my life into the year 1995. So maybe it was a little bit before maybe it was a little bit after but it was around 1995 When I met how, how was a older, sexy Leather Cigar man in LA. I say older, he was probably in his 40s. But I was in my early 20s At the time, mid 20s. And he had a partner and I had a partner I was in an open relationship. And I developed a significant crush on how and that's slightly remarkable because this is well before apps. Well before even chat sites really online. I want to say I met him through a BBS, a bulletin board system, which was a kind of rudimentary embryonic early social media sort of thing. But whoever I met him, I kind of fell for him in a superduper crushy kind of way. And because he was into cigars, I started to develop an interest in them as well. And I don't know that at the moment, it was a sexual interest. I think it was much more about wanting to get his interest. But I asked him about cigars and for some recommendations in one day. In the magical mythical year of 1995. I went to the local mall, which had a cigar store, and I bought several cigars, and my first cigar was a TIAMO. It was okay, but I didn't know I like the taste. And I did not like the experience. But I did like how so much that I kept at it. Until I discovered I loved everything about cigars. And then I met one of the most significant leather mentors in my life. Scratch that. I met the most significant other mentor in my life. A man in New York City. Some of you may know his name is Thor. He remains a very special important part of my life. And I spent many years serving Thor and learning quite a bit at his boots. And we had a lot of cigar sex. And he also introduced me to pipes, but that is perhaps another episode. This is the late 1900s in New York and it was a great time for cigars. It was the.com economy and people were making money out of nothing and spending it like crazy. And so great, extravagant, luxurious indulgences were all Rage, steakhouses became quite big again, and so did cigars. And that was a good thing, but also a very bad thing. Because for those of us who had cigars as a fetish, it suddenly became very challenging to get our favorite cigars. But you were still able to smoke inside bars. And New York had a wonderful group called hot ash. And I was a member of that group, and they had play parties inside where you could actually smoke cigars and have sex and it was pretty special. And for many years, for many years, maybe a decade, cigars were really the center of my play. And if you follow the podcast, you know that the center was originally bondage, which I would say is, was probably about the first decade of my journey. And then it really shifted around that transformational year of 1995. And I had a lot of cigar sex. And as then I'm in the turn of the millennium, as I transitioned into a top, I had a lot of cigar sex as a top as well. And I mean, trading smoke for smoke gas mass, combined with breath control, heat, Ash, all of it. We'll talk about some of the many things you can do with a cigar and as seen in the next segment. But for years, cigars, were at the very center of my play displacing bondage to the edges. And then it shifted. And I can't tell you exactly why except for a while I got a little lost in general and had to find myself in many ways, not simply in my play. These days, cigars are part of my play, I wouldn't say they're the center, but they're still important. Today, though, mainly, cigars are very social thing for me. Every week, I have a cigar with my best friend. And we smoke and talk about our weeks and catch up. And it's part therapy. And it's part support. And it's part laughter and it's extremely important to me, once a month, I get together with my other best friend, Steve, who was on the uniforms episode. And we also have a cigar and catch up and talk about our lives and things going on and support and laughter and observation. In those two, social events, my cigars with my best friends weekly and monthly, really, in some ways anchor my sanity and serenity, they provide a stability, because I have a regular outlook, to discuss very intimately with people very close to me, the things that are going on in my life, I also still very much enjoy going to the bar in gear and having a cigar. And this is driven in part from my sobriety. And without getting too much into it or bringing out the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is really what's driving this. The whole point is that, in general is someone who doesn't drink there's not a lot of good reason for me to be at a bar. So if I go out to a bar, I really like having a reason to be there. Sometimes that reason is to hunt for a man but increasingly that is not at all the reason I go to a bar, because that's a rarely happens now. However, I can always go to the bar to enjoy a cigar I get to gear up. I go, I have my cigar. Maybe I check out some men, maybe I see some friends. And when it's done, I leave. And it's not even that alcohol was really my drug of choice or a problem for me. But I do like having purposefulness when I'm at a bar just in general in to be consistent with my program of sobriety. I'm also quite blessed to live in Fort Lauderdale where we have to set our socials every week. There's Monday night at the ramrod 7pm And Thursday night at the Eagles 7pm I almost never make the one at the eagle because Thursday night is my weekly cigar with my bestie but for quite a while for several years I was a regular fixture at the Monday nights at our social had the ramrod and it was a mainstay of my social life in general I would go I would see friends, I would check out the new meet in town. And I would enjoy a cigar with the pandemic that shifted quite a bit. I didn't actually cut back on that much on my cigars with my besties because we did it in very socially distanced ways but I did stop attending the cigar socials and I haven't really returned in part it's just it's so damn hot in Florida right now that at 7pm on a Monday night I don't want to put on gear and go to the bar and sweat my ass off. That's definitely a part of it. And in part it's I'm reconfiguring what my social life looks like. However, in general, cigars from here wonderful social mechanism. It's something I like to do if I'm meetings I'm on new like, hey, let's meet for a cigar the eagle. Hey, let's meet for cigars, the ramrod. And I think that's because first of all is an introvert I like time limited encounters with new people, so I don't feel trapped. And a cigar is about an hour, hour and a half, maybe two, if I'm really feeling great and want to have another cigar. And cigars are about being present, you know, you're really just there with each other, you're enjoying the conversation and you're enjoying the smoke. So for me, it has become a social ritual that I express through my best friendships, through my attendance at a leather bar, through social gatherings, like the cigar socials. But also, as I'm thinking and feeling out new friendships, just because cigars aren't central to my play. That doesn't mean they're not part of my play. In general, I tell men who want to play with me that you need to be at least cigar tolerant. Because no matter what I'm doing to you, I'm going to be enjoying the cigar. If I'm tying you up, if you're worshiping my boots, if I am beating the crap out of you, I'm going to enjoy a cigar while I do it. I rarely don't have a cigar and my playroom. That for me, it's just part and parcel of play. So much so that my leathers which are stored in the playroom, of course, are rather soaked in cigar smoke. And as more than one person has commented to me when they've gotten some of my gifted leathers, that they are scented quite heavily with cigars, I do feel cigars are returning closer to the center of my sexual play, or at least more regularly into the lineup because of my desire to have a boy to call my own. If you've listened to the podcast regularly, you know about the boy who changed my life and when he returns to my playroom, and I hope he will. I know there are certain things he hasn't done yet with cigars that I intend to do with him. And there are some other boy candidates, shall we say? And I'm looking forward to helping them learn and grow specifically in cigar sex, along with bondage along with pain, but cigars have returned into the regular rotation of play I do with men. Now one of the things to know about cigar men as a community is that there's always kind of a signature cigar, you know for a while and see was Excalibur number one the Casa blancos were very popular than the LG C's. Simply today it's the asylums, any of these islands because they are large and relatively affordable. I'm not a big fan of them. However, I've also always had a sort of signature cigar a standard that my humidor is stocked with for long time that was the Casa Blanca Magnum. It was a good cigar, I think it was a six by 60 and 60 Ring is a nice little golden point for me. It's a good size and it feels good in my jaw. Then for a while I was doing the LGC Siri R. For a long time, there was a local cigar store that had a store brand that was six or seven by 60. cheap, plentiful, but then they switched to maker so I stopped using that. Most recently my cigar is the LFA by law aroma to Kuba. And I like it for a couple of reasons. It's a 58 ring, seven inch cigar that's a good size for me. It has a ribbon on the end, which just it means nothing, but I think it makes it feel fancy. It makes me feel fancy when I have it. But the number one reason I like to smoke the LFA is of course because LFA means the boss. And I like that quite a bit. Those cigars have drifted in and out the center of my sexual life. They have always been a really important part of my self image. Since I got into them in the late 1900s. I'm not just a leather man. I'm a cigar man. That's how central they are. And I am just as comfortable in shorts and a tank top with my bestie every week. He's not a leather person, right? So I wear regular clothes with him. I'm just as comfortable having a cigar in casual clothing as I am in full leathers. And that's what I mean when I think of myself as a cigar man, is that that is an independent interlocked intertwined identity. Next to commingling with my identity as a leather man. And that's been my journey with cigars. You know, I smoke pipes every day. Again, that's a different podcast. I smoke cigars at least once a week with my best friend sometimes more. And they are just an important part of who I am not without complications. So Some of which I'll discuss in the next segment. But that my friends, that's the story of my journey with cigars. Okay, before we can even talk about cigars and cigar sacks, we have to talk about risk. Because we like to practice risk aware consensual kink. Smoking causes cancer, there is no way around that. So if you're going to be getting into cigars and cigar sex, that is something you need to know. And that is a risk you have to find acceptable. I don't know how other cigar men deal with the risk. I frankly, mostly just ignore it, I put it out of my mind. And I'm not at all recommending that as a good way to deal with risk. But it's what I do. And I want it to be honest. The thing to keep in mind is that cigars are very much class inflected, particularly in Europe, it will be quite expensive. But even here in the United States, it represents a certain amount of privilege to buy cigars because they are not cheap or rather, cheap cigars are not usually used in cigar sacks. These are considerations you want to think about if this is something new or something you want to get into. So let's start with a quick introduction to cigars. There are two main measurements used with cigars the ring gauge, and the length ring gauge is a measure of how thick a cigar is. And it is measured in 60 fourths of an inch. So a cigar that is a 64 ring is one inch in diameter. Cigar fetishes usually don't go much below a 54 or 52. But they go as high as 120. Right now, 70 Ring 80 Ring cigars. Even the 90 from asylum very popular, I tend to like a 58 or 60. That's about my sweet spot. length varies. Typical cigar lengths will range anywhere from five to 10 inches. I tend to like something right around seven inches. That provides me about an hour of smoking pleasure. Let's talk about wrappers. Cigars have three layers. The filler is the stuff you smoke. And then that's held together by the binder. And on top of all that is the wrapper and that's this thing you see on the outside. Wrappers come in a variety of colors. But we're only going to focus here on the primary ones there is a natural or EMS English market selection wrapper, which is kind of a light tan. There is Maduro which is very dark, much more of a brown. And then there is a sicuro or double Maduro which is even darker. I think many cigar fetishes like myself tend to like Maduro cigars. If you're a connoisseur and I am not I'm not into the okey undertones of cigars. I like them because they produce smoke and they're hot. But if you're a connoisseur, you might find some differences in flavor based on the rapper. But if you're into cigars as a fetish and cigar sex, I don't think there's a significant difference in the smoking experience. Storing cigars is something you need to think about. You don't necessarily need a fancy humidor, but you do need something airtight. Even Tupperware will do. And any smoke shop you go to will sell a variety of humidifying devices. These work right? So so I use my god what a godsend. It's called the cigar oasis. And it's Wi Fi connected. It is the first time in my life that my humidor has been at the proper humidity. Ultimately, what we're shooting for is something around 7077 degrees at 70% humidity, that tends to be something of a holy grail and really hard to get. But you do want to maintain the humidity as much as possible. Scars can dry out and then they will become quite brittle and smoke very harshly. But they can also become too wet, which impacts both the smoking and can lead to mold production. Now if you're buying just a couple of single cigars, a good cigar shop will be your best choice. And a good cigar should cost maybe around $8 less than that you're getting a pretty good deal but it will concern you find some in the 13 to 19 $20 range. And you know it's a good experience. If you're new to cigars to go into a cigar shop and say hey, I'm new help me because they're going to be very invested in making sure you have a good experience because they want you to come back as a customer. People who work at good cigar stores, no cigars, and can talk to you about your interests or what you like or what you might like and make recommendations of Good starters, cigars, and I would follow those recommendations once you find cigars that you'd like. And you know, a big part of getting started in cigars is trying a bunch to find the ones you really like. But once you find a cigar that you like, you can buy them by the box. And that's going to be a lot cheaper. I like to use a shop called Neptun cigars it is located here in Florida, which is nice because when I order it arrives practically the same day, but I like it even more because their prices are extraordinarily good. Finishes tend to have particular choices, there are certain there are certain cigars that trend as I discussed in the last segment, and right now the asylums are very popular. So if you want something that everyone else finds good for cigars sex, then you might want to try one of the asylum series. Before we get into the mechanics of cigars and cigar sects. I do want to reiterate something I have said on occasion. And that is this. The key to being a member of any fetish community or really any community is not knowing the right way to do something. But instead knowing the terms of the conversation, and consciously choosing and then being able to participate in a conversation about your choices. That is very true. When it comes to lighting a cigar. Obviously, the first thing you're gonna want to do is remove the cellophane or if it's in a tube, take it out of the tube, and then you're faced with your first decision to remove the band or not. Some people like to keep the band on because it looks really good. It's part of the whole aesthetic of the cigar. I tend to prefer mine removed and that requires some careful peeling, right some people want to keep the band on so they don't accidentally sometimes the glue on the band will get on the wrapper and you'll go to take the band off and the rapper cracks and then the cigar is kind of ruined. I find instead that as the cigar burns, keep in mind it is expanding because from the heat, and therefore it can also crack the wrapper if there's a tight band around it. So I like to remove the band but usually not at first. Usually I wait until I've had 10 or 15 minutes of my cigar and I removed the band. It's up to you whether or not you choose to remove the band. The next decision you have to make is whether or not to wet the end. I like to wet mine I take the cigar and I stick it in my mouth and I suck on it a little bit. I like to get that end wet, because I think it tends to make the cut a little bit cleaner since the end isn't dry, and the leaf at the end is less likely to crack. But this is a decision for you to make. Then you have to decide whether to cut or punch. And even then there are more than one kind of cutter including the V cut. This is entirely a matter of preference. I will say if you want to drive a bottom crazy, use a cut because it's hard to get perfectly straight. So you can hand them your cigar and the cutter and say, hey boy cut this perfectly. And it's not gonna happen. Very, very terrifying. I like punching more because it tends to keep the shape of the cigar better. It's hard to mess it up like a cut. And most of the cigars I smoke are too big for standard cutters. Although, as the asylums have grown in popularity, they have started making larger cigar cutters as well. Once you have your cigar cut or punch and you're ready to light. Now part of the decision to make here is who's going to light it. I actually prefer lighting my own cigars for me it's part of the ritual of smoking a cigar but if you are a dominant person, then you might have your submissive person, Light the cigar for you. I will say how you light it is a broad ranging question for people. There are some purists who will only use cedar strips to light their cigar. There are some who like to use wood matches. There are some who use torches. There's a lot of conversation about how you should like us and our i i Like a good jet torch. For flame. I really want to get that sucker lit. Smoking it involves general puffing. You're not doing a straight inhale as you would with a cigarette you are puffing on the cigar. Now you can certainly puff puff puff and then take the cigar out and inhale whatever smoke is in your mouth. That's something I do. And I suppose in some extraordinary cases, some very advanced cigar smokers and cigar players may actually inhale straight through the cigar. I do not recommend that as a beginner or in general as a practice. I don't know that it is the most pleasant thing to do. Cigars are really great tools for sex and for play. And the first thing probably the most common thing people do with cigars in the play Room is played with smoke. A lot of cigar play can involve the cigars simply as an accouchement as an additional symbol of masculinity. But at the core of cigar play is smoke sex and there's something highly erotic about sharing smoke. It's very intimate. As with piss or spit, or other bodily fluids, it is taking in something that has been inside another's body. Smoke sticks starts very simply with swapping smoke. And the basic way to do that is really not much more than blowing smoke in the face of your bottom or submissive or sharing it in a kiss. So you puff on the cigar you puff on the cigar, you puff on the cigar. You take the cigar out your mouth, you pull your partner in for a kiss, while they're still smoking your mouth, feeding it to them. Now if you're on the receiving end of this, if you're a bottom to cigar specs, make sure you get some oxygen too. So if someone's pulling you in for a kiss and you know they have a mouthful of smoke, you want to start breathing in so that you get some oxygen is not all smoke, you will be inhaling smoke, it may cause you to cough, it does take some practice, but it is a lot of fun. There are also more advanced techniques for smoke swapping, and an advanced swapping the bottom will hold the smoke longer, maybe exhale through the mouth or nose after the kiss or on a signal from the top. I think there's something really delightful about a man with a mouthful of smoke kissing you you suck that smoke down into your lungs, you have a nice long kiss, you finish the kiss. And then you pause a moment and you lean your head back and he can visibly see the stream of smoke coming out of your mouth. So erotic. But ways to do advanced smoke swapping would include combining some breath controls. So perhaps the top does some harm or calm that's a hand over mouth or glove over mouth, clamping a nice gloved hand over the mouth and nose to keep the smoke in. And and then the other way you can do it is while the top is actually puffing on the cigar. The bottom can kind of come in to the side of the cigar and just sort of suck the smoke in very greedily showing his hunger or her hunger or their hunger for the cigar smoke. And the person who's smoking it. Gas masks play a large role in smokestacks, obviously, maybe not obviously. Let me restate that. Gas masks play a huge role in Smoke sex, they then crossover as well with breath control. And there lots of different kinds of gas masks for a while there was an Israeli kind that was really quite common. It really only covered the face with straps, big set of straps. And then at some point, late millennium, the Russian gas bass became very popular, it's made out of rubber, and it covers the whole head and so it was really very much almost like a rubber hood, and also had a really beautiful beautiful hose, which is good for feeding the smoke as well. I will say though that the Russian mask can be a little claustrophobic sizing for people because it is encloses the entire head it is made of rubber it is very tight, it's very clean. For those for most gas masks, you can probably find those an Army Navy surplus or perhaps even on eBay, they shouldn't be that hard to find harder to find is an SCBA mask, a self contained breathing apparatus mask, and this is for miners are people who are working in hazardous environments or firemen. So it's got a large clear faceplate, and it has a smaller diameter hose, which is usually attached to a bottle of oxygen. Now these take a little bit more work for the person who's bottoming in the scene because the hose is a smaller diameter, you actually have to kind of work harder to breathe in because it's intended for positive air pressure is intended to be hooked up to a tank that is providing oxygen and without that your lungs to a little bit more work. But it's not really a problem. These also tend to be very much so less claustrophobia sizing because you have a big clear faceplate so you don't feel very enclosed at all, even though you are now some tips for bottoms who are going to be bottoming to a gas mask and a smoke SEC scene. Keep in mind that generally, you're in control of how much smoke you actually get simply based on how much you're breathing in. So if you can control your breathing and take a shallow breath, get a little bit of smoke. Take a deep breath to get a lot of smoke. If you see a top bringing the hose up to his or her their mouth, then you're probably about to get a lot of smoke and you want to start sucking in oxygen so that you have some oxygen before the smoke arrives. Always keep in mind that you can throw A sharp exhale, clear the mask of smoke. And if you wear contact lenses, gas masks can be something that might bother your lenses. So be aware that you could get some irritation from all the smoke that will be in the mask. Tips for a top using a gas mask for smoke sacks. One of the things I like to do is bring the hose up to my ear, because I want to hear them breathing. You don't want to try to feed someone smoke when they're on an exhale, because that's not going to work. You want to feed it along with their inhale. So putting the hose to my ear lets me know when are they inhaling when are they exhaling so I know when to feed the smoke. If you're using one of the large faceplate masks like an SCBA you may want to spit in it and rub that spit all around. That will keep the mask from fogging up. And it's also kind of hot. When you put any sort of mask on that uses straps. Start at the bottom and work your way up tightening the straps. And whenever you're done before you start playing with the gas masks, check the seal. The quickest way to do that is to put your hand clamped over the hose and to see whether or not the person can breathe. Another fun smoke feeding technique is to use a boot a tall boot, what you can do is fill the boot with smoke, hold the boot shaft over your head since smoke rises upwards, puff on the cigar and blow the smoke up into the boot. The shaft will be full of smoke and then you can lower that shaft on to a hungry bottoms face covering the entire face and causing them to inhale the smoke. It's actually really hot. I haven't done that in a while but I'm gonna have to bring that one back. In addition to the smoke feeding and smoke swapping techniques of cigar sacks. There are for smoking techniques as well, you know gas masks for for feeding smoke and you can toss in some poppers or you can cut off the air or whatever. But when we're thinking about forced smoking, we're really thinking about forcing the bottom to smoke the cigar. These tend to be far more advanced techniques. Because what's going to happen is you're going to end up probably with a much larger volume of smoke. This can be done very effectively in a gas mask. Once the bottom is in the gas mask, you can plug the hose with the end of the cigar. That means that they're going to be dragging all of their oxygen all of their air in through the cigar filling it up with smoke. Now keep in mind if you see smoke, just starting to drift into the mask, then the whole length of the hose has smoke. And as soon as you take that cigar away, they will be able to pull air in easily and what will come in in a rush is a lot of smoke. This is an advanced technique. What I generally like to do is do this at the end of a smoke feeding portion of a scene. So I will have them in the gas mask, I will feed them a little bit of smoke, I will feed them a little bit more I'll do a little breath control, feed a little bit more smoke. And then at the end I plugged the hose with the cigar and I get them a huge blast of smoke, they're probably going to cough, they're probably going to cough a lot. So I want to lift the gas mask off by pulling it up off the head so that they can breathe and recover. It's a little sadistic, but you know what? I'm a little sadistic. Another way to do for smoking is by using duct tape and a nose clip. So you want to make sure you clip the nose. But then what you want to do is essentially duct tape the cigar into their mouth. It is an inelegant. It is inelegant, and it will ruin the cigar. But what it does is essentially make the cigar into a gag and all of their breathing comes through the scar. Very, very, very advanced. You can also I knew someone who wants did this he made a cigar gag. So what he did is he took a cigar and he cut a notch in the middle. And then he tied a piece of string to both and it's our and essentially use it as a sort of bit gag. But by lighting both ends, you could breathe through that center notch and get smoke from both ends kind of hot, so smoke can lead to the atmosphere of the scene. It can be swapped very intimately back and forth. It can be fed to a bottom through a gas mask or boot, or you can force someone to smoke. But cigars are not only tools for producing smoke in a scene, and smoke is not the only thing you can play with. Cigars are on fire surprisingly, and that means that you can use heat as part of your scene as well. The first way to use the heat of a cigar in a scene is by warming different parts of the body, particularly sensitive bits like the tits or the genitals. I like to hold the cigar a little bit like a pencil when I'm doing that. I like to keep one finger on the skin to keep the scar from getting too close. I don't Select to make sure I've knocked off all the ash. So I'm just dealing with the bright burning. And not only is that a direct source of heat, but the ash could knock off accidentally while I'm warming something. And the ash can be a little hot and could cause them to flinch. And then I could burn them. And that would all be horrible. The key is to warm something, not burn something. That's why I like to make sure my approach is very controlled by having that pencil approach with a finger to the skin. And I like to hold it there until they start whimpering, or until they get clearly uncomfortable. And they don't like to flip the cigar around and cool that same area. With the wet slimy end of the cigar that has been in my mouth, there is a very special trick you can do with the heat of a cigar. And I call this the t shirt trick. But you know my mentor Thor actually took umbrage at that. So I'm going to call it the t shirt spectacle. And it's an absolutely amazing thing to do at a bar or at an event, someplace where you really want to kind of harness the voyeuristic energy and put on a bit of a show, you want to make sure your bottom is wearing a 100% Cotton, plain white t shirt, and it has to be 100% Cotton, if not, the fabric will melt. And that is a very bad thing. The first thing you want to do is use the end of your cigar, knock off the hash, so you've got that nice bright glowing coin. And you want to just briefly mark where the tickets are on the body from the outside, right. And you'll end up with these little black dots, a little bit of ashing from the burning cigar on the places where the tickets are, then what you do is you reach one hand under and pull the t shirt out. And then take your cigar up underneath the t shirt between the t shirt and the skin being very gentle not to brush the skin not to burn the skin. But what you do is you put the bright burning end of the cigar behind that little mark where the tip is and you apply a little pressure and the cigar will burn through. Now you want to take this far out and then you're gonna want to slap it a little bit with your hand because the cotton will burn a little bit, you want to make sure you knock that out so that the bottom does not actually get burned. When you're done what you're left with. Besides this beautiful spectacle of cigars burning through a t shirt is a T shirt with these two perfect little round holes right exactly on the tickets, which makes them beautifully vulnerable and available for play. Theoretically, you can burn someone with a cigar, you can essentially create a permanent mark. That is a level of extraordinary intimacy, cigars burn very, very hot, and can cause severe burns on the skin. So that's not something I'm going to discuss. It's something I've only done once in my life with someone who knew what they were doing. And I don't know that it's something I'm going to do again, because it is a permanent mark. And that creates a permanent bond. But you can sort of write on the bottom, you know, the burning end of a cigar is a little bit like piss poor charcoal. So if they're wearing a white t shirt, you can write pig or fag or sissy or pop or whatever you want. And that just gives them a really nice way of advertising who they are at the bar right? Smoke sex is pretty standard when it comes to cigars and heat is to particularly warming up different parts of the body, the sensitive ones, slightly more advanced is playing with the ash. There are a couple of different ways you can do this. You can actually put ash on the body. Keep in mind Ash is hot, but cools off very quickly. So one of the ways to do this is to get about an inch of ash at the end of your cigar, tap it off into your hand. Let it cool for a second and sort of slap rub it right swipe it across some part of the bottoms body, they will get a very high temperature sensation. But if you're moving quickly, the actual core quickly and will not burn and also creates a beautiful mess if you're to anything kind of grungy grungy. Eating Ash is slightly more advanced. And I know it sounds super gross. But keep in mind that some cultures did use wood ash as a seasoning, because it's very, very salty. It's also very, very dry. The thing to know about eating Ash is you want to make sure you have quite a bit of saliva in your mouth before you attempt to do so because the moment that Ash hits your mouth, it is sucking up every single bit of moisture available. So you want to really salivate you really want a little pool of saliva to kind of buffer the dryness of the ash that you can get it down. It doesn't taste bad. It's gritty and it's salty. And that's it. Keep in mind though that Ash is hot, so you want to be careful that you don't eat ash that is too hot or you can burn your mouth and burn your tongue. In general, you want to knock an ash off into your palm of about an inch in length. And let it sit there for a second before anyone tries to consume it. A good way to get into eating Ash is to put a little bit of ash on your boot, and then have the bottom eat it from there if they're a bootlicker, right, because there's already the pleasure of eating the boot. And let's face it, boots are dirty to start with. So a little bit of ash is not going to be that disgusting. I find the next step is to train them to eat ash out of my gloved hand, it can it's not quite as mind blowing an ash directly in the mouth, it allows the ash to cool, it does make quite a mess of my gloves, I will say. Then after that, I will put the ash in their hand, let them jiggle it for a couple of seconds and pop it in their mouth. Now there are a couple of advanced techniques you can use with ash heating. First, if you can, again, about an inch of ash, you can break it off on the very top of a beer bottle. And then they can let it cool for a second. And they can just chug it with the beer, it's actually one of the spectacle moves. And then the most advanced technique is to have the bottom, break off the ash with their teeth. Let it cool and then eat it. This is super advanced, super, super advanced. And it requires some skill. Because comes with a lot of risk. You want a really long ash keep in mind the shorter the ash, the more the ash is to the burning part of the cigar. And the hotter it is. As ash grows and gets away from that heat source, it cools. So you want quite a long ash, maybe an inch and a half, maybe two inches. You want the bottom to break it off carefully with 30. Ash has a little bit, just a little bit of structural integrity. So getting that pressure right to break off the ash and let it remain hole is quite a skill. And they're going to want to keep their lips out of the way or their lips will burn. And they want to wait for a second to cool it. And then you eat it up. There also service aspects of playing with cigars, you can certainly have your bottom hold your ashtray, prep your cigars, light your cigars, clean your ashtrays for you and all your buddies, et cetera, et cetera. And then the final aspect, which isn't directly about cigars with cigar sacks, but it's closely related is cigar spit, you tend to create a lot of spirit when you're smoking a cigar because you have this big thing in your mouth. And then what you can do with that, you can force it into their mouth when you're kissing them. You can spit it into their mouth, you can spit it on their face on their body, you can use it on their genitals for them to use this lubrication. And that's our introduction to cigars and cigar sacks. If you're able to find my YouTube channel, I'm trying to put a link in the show notes. I have all of this material available in video form, which will really allow you to see some of the things I'm talking about. Always keep in mind, cigar smoking is inherently risky. But if that's a risk you're really willing to take, it can open up new kinds of play. Because the cigar really isn't just a cigar. A cigar is a tool in the playroom that can create extraordinary pleasure. So very pleased to be here with Mr. Rogers from Twitter, Mr. Rogers, welcome to full Cal.

Unknown: 43:45

Glad to be here. This is gonna be really fun.

Edge : 43:47

It is going to be fun. Maybe you could start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community.

Unknown: 43:55

So my pronouns are he him and in the community, I mostly identify as leather boy, although I feel like I'm kind of in between leather boy and just leather men in general. Well, I

Edge : 44:08

think that's a beautiful way to put it because I think we're all leather people to be gender age gendered. So this is an episode about cigars. Can you tell us a little bit about your general interest in cigars what you do with them? Let's start there.

Unknown: 44:25

Yeah, so my big thing with cigars is a mix of smoke swapping is a fun one. Ash eating has been a more recent exploration. And then on top of that, also like spit are sort of like my main three fun activities with cigars when it comes to like playing.

Edge : 44:45

So it's definitely a sexual thing for you.

Unknown: 44:48

Yeah, I would say it's really it's funny for me because my interest in cigars essentially came out of like getting my first jacket. It was like I got my first jacket, and then it kind of turned into I know, like cigars are associated with the leather image. And so I ended up just like, you know, going to a smoke shop and like just trying like a $5 one and I couldn't get through it. And it was like, just kind of like fun to explore, sort of like feeling how I put it, it's like feeling like I'm exploring like a very specific leather image for myself at that time, and just kind of like going with it and kind of like seeing where it led me. And now it's kind of, honestly, it's become bigger in this like past year for me more than like previously.

Edge : 45:36

Can you say a little bit more? Because I love this connection you're making between? I mean, essentially, it's not like you grew up fantasizing about cigars, but you seem to have had some deep embedded leather image. And can you just talk more about how cigars got connected to that leather image for you in the first place?

Unknown: 45:56

Well, I think it's mostly from I mean, my attraction is mostly like rugged, bearish men. And so cigars have like have always attached themselves to like a more masculine image. And like, it's kind of like that tied with leather. And more specifically, what it's kind of evolved to is seeing how cigars kind of have this like really vast range. When it comes to, you know, you can like do it with like, a, like a suit and tie like businessman image or like, you know, motorcycle cops Dogi cowboy, which like I've done like more recently. And then, you know, there was like something not too long ago, where he's on Twitter as well. And he does a lot of like, Smoking Cigar videos, and one of the things he was like, you know, basically doing like some like bareback sex, and like, it's all like sweaty, he's super burly and hairy. And he just took like the ash of a cigar and just like rubbed it all over his chest. And like, I've never been able to get that image like out of my head. Since seeing it.

Edge : 47:01

That's very messy. Yeah. So you entered into cigar play because of this strong masculine leather image? And now, does that still drive your interest in it? Or What have you discovered about having sex with cigar sacks? That you really love?

Unknown: 47:22

Yeah, so the big thing that I've noticed since then isn't necessarily just like a masculine image, but it's really tied to this like idea of communion fetish that I really like. I think you've mentioned it before, too. And like, I know, I've talked about it before, but I really love this like idea of like, it's almost like ritualizing fetish. It's almost about like, there's a lot of like setup that you can do with cigars. That's like erotic, whether it's like, you know, like heating it up, warming it up, lighting it, poking it, cutting all of it. It's all like kind of tied into like, it's like eroticism before you even get going with it. And you can ritualize that with like, you know, if I'm going to be like a service boy, I can like set up like a certain cigar. Or just honestly, like seeing the action is like something that I also really enjoy. And what I've noticed with the communion fetishes, like that's kind of an idea that's really expanded for me outside of cigars, too. And it's fun that cigars kind of like fit the image. And it's also something that kind of works outside of it, too.

Edge : 48:33

You need to say more about communion and fetish because as far as I know, as far as I'm concerned, you have invented this term. And I think it's a really brilliant term to describe a class or family of fetishes, but I'm imagining many of my listeners may not have ever heard of it. And so could you expound on what else would be a communion fetish or what the erotic driving forces there?

Unknown: 48:57

Yeah, so if I'm going to list like other fetishes that I enjoy and how they kind of tie into the communion idea, it's so like, I'm a big fan of impact. If I'm like taking punches on my chest or my thighs, right, it's kind of about the communion of like taking the ritualistic like suffering from somebody. Watersports, if I'm like being covered in piss or drinking piss, it's like coming from that person. And it's sort of about I think, when it comes to cigars, it's about kind of taking it away from just the objects and bringing it to the individual of which I'm like serving or like engaging with.

Edge : 49:35

Yeah, certainly, when you're taking a man's smoke, you are taking his breath, right. There's that sense of communion and I love the kind of intimacy that you're you're planting inside of this communion fetish as well as some of these examples you gave. I also love that you talked about ritual in relation to cigars and could you speak a little bit more broadly about what ritual means to you in general in your plot, Your what meaning it has?

Unknown: 50:02

Yeah, ritual for me is, you know, I feel like when I'm engaging in any kink, the ritual aspect is sort of my way of like diving into my own headspace. When it comes to a lot of that, it's, I think, for me, it's kind of a way to like focus in verses, it's sort of about making it more than just, I guess for me, I like to think of kink as like more than just play a lot of the time, which it can be. But I think for a lot of my own experience, and like what I enjoy about kink, it is about like driving intimacy, it's about driving connection, and like how you've come to that point. And I think by making it like rituals of which you're like, engaging with somebody else that's, you know, a little bit more powerful than just saying, like, oh, I enjoy cigars, or oh, I enjoy getting hit, or oh, I enjoy PIs. Right? It's about kind of like expanding that into how I guess. Like, how you're coming to that point, I guess, or like how you're like reaching? Sort of like a, like a more powerful moment with somebody?

Edge : 51:07

Yeah, it sounds like it's a lot about meaning making and meeting sharing.

Unknown: 51:12

Yeah, yeah, about making stuff feel more important between like you, and another individual is like a big part of it.

Edge : 51:21

And you also, I mean, you made a clear sort of transactional stuffs perfectly fine. You just like getting hit, that's great. But what's driving you in this sense of communion fetish is a particular kind of intimacy that has meaning built into it? Is that right?

Unknown: 51:37

Yeah, I think even I guess, in a lot of ways, I tried to think about it, if I, I don't typically Dom, I've more recently fallen into service topping occasionally. And with that, I've noticed times where I almost felt like when someone was serving me, the specific example was like, they were like, licking my boots. And I felt like they were caring more about the boots than like me as an individual or like me as a person. And so making it like the communion fetish or like making it more like of a ritual to engage in with somebody, it's, it's about kind of like getting past just the leather or just like the object.

Edge : 52:20

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Certainly, I don't find boots in and of themselves a classic fetish object in a Freudian sense. And that's really, I think, what you're describing people who are really just there for the boots. And for me, it's also about that, they're my boots, I'm in them that connection, and then using that as this sort of vehicle for meaning and intimacy and connection.

Unknown: 52:42

Yeah, driving more than just sort of an image that's attractive. It's about sort of combining an individual with that image. And I think that's also important when it comes to, right. It's when you're engaging in kink with someone or like gauging in with these fetishes. It's important to think about, I guess, it's sort of like it helps that feedback loop in a way of like communicating like, you know, if someone is if I'm serving someone, I kind of want that feedback to come back to be like, I'm in the right spot. And I feel good in this spot, and then kind of vice versa, with making it about No, it's about you as an individual who's in the boots, not the boots themselves.

Edge : 53:21

So bringing this back to cigars, you talked about smoke swapping, and ash eating and spit and those are really sort of body to body moments. Beyond that. Do you just enjoy having a cigar yourself? And what about it? Do you enjoy?

Unknown: 53:35

Oh, yeah, I you know, every occasionally I've been now I'm up here and up here in the Midwest. It's starting to get colder. So smoking outside isn't always the funnest, as the weather starts turning, but I do find just, you know, every occasion I'll just like going out to my deck and just enjoying one is nice, or more specifically, if I'm gonna like keep it in the context of enjoying community. I really like using cigar socializing as a way to like meet other men and like go out and just enjoy a night out. It's kind of nice to be able to plant but evening around, oh, let's like go to the bar and then like we'll walk outside and like have a cigar and just chat for a while. It's a good way to kind of like plant the scene. And funny enough, like it's, I really sometimes hate talking to men on dates when I'm like inside the bar because there's usually like thumping music and all this other stuff. So kind of forcing it to go outside to a patio space or to like you know, outside the front of the bar, kind of like helps diffuse everything around it and then you can start really, you know, getting no like the other guy or knowing the other person and all of that stuff.

Edge : 54:50

Cigars are also very social for me. I rarely just sit at home having a cigar effect I don't think I ever do. But I love going out and Enjoying a cigar and there are a couple of people in my life who I regularly get together and have cigars with them to catch up. So I think that social aspects very strong for me as well. So thank you for sharing that. If you had any tips for someone, just getting into cigar play, particularly someone who might be more receptive or submissive in that position, what sort of things have you learned that they might find useful as they're getting into cigars?

Unknown: 55:28

I think the number one thing is starting small. You know, when it comes to cigars, there's definitely like the whole like Freudian euphemism of like, I have to have like the the biggest ring cigar I can find and, you know, the most popular cigar that I can think of off the top of my head are the like eight by 80, asylums. They're huge. They're very bold and full flavored. And I think if you're trying to get into cigars, just in general, it's just a bad place to start. Unless you're already like, used to like nicotine and tobacco use from like cigarettes or something like that. And actually, I still prefer like more mild, they're more like a Romick like acid cigars. Those are typically like five by 50. I think the largest one I've smoked is like a six by 60. So the size is at least a little bit. Like more maintainable, more manageable if you're getting into it and starting, or even you could start with something like, I think they're called cigarillos. They come in like smaller like five packs. Don't start with cigarillos please

Edge : 56:40

I have to intervene please

Unknown: 56:45

yeah, or you know or the other option is maybe just like starting with if you know if you don't feel like you're ready to like smoke like a full cigar like you know to like oh this is like too much tobacco all at once then maybe you just start with simple smoke swapping with someone and just sort of getting into like taking in smoke and then it's also like you're already kind of engaging in like the interaction and the connection parts of it versus just going for yet again like the item itself.

Edge : 57:14

Yeah, I let's talk some more about smoke swapping because what's hotter than making out and then you get smoke on it's like the gateway drug to cigars. How did you how did you get into Smoke swapping? And did did it present challenges to you at first?

Unknown: 57:32

Um, no, it's it's gonna sound like really not humble, but I've always been like a really good kisser so for me, it was like a really just nice extension of that I really love like, just like full mouth kissing. And just like kind of getting in with like, another man's mouth and stuff like that. So smoke shopping for me just felt like just like a really natural extension of like getting into it. And yeah, I know for me at least it it definitely started for me like just smoking cigars first and then adding like play to it. There were definitely nights when I was like 21 And like, just got my leather jacket where I had to like, pass a cigar around between me and like three other friends just to get through it. And like looking back at that it's just like really funny and almost like it's kind of adorable. But yeah, like smoke sobbing for me was just sort of like a continuation of kissing. And then yeah, and then from there it turned into like I don't even know like where my interest in like Ash eating came from honestly. But that's been I think that's like I guess I kind of like it because it is so it's almost like a party trick to a lot of people that I tell that like I've told a lot of friends that like like, Oh, I'm into cigars and like part of that's like a you know, like swapping smoke when you're kissing or like eating ash and they're like they kind of stop and they're like eating ash like Yeah, it's fine.

Edge : 59:04

It doesn't taste bad. I mean it's just kind of salty and super dry right?

Unknown: 59:10

Yeah super dry. I mean, I would say like the recommendation I know when I like first did it. That was like licking it off a boot. So starting with like not having to like worry about taking like a full like cherry essentially. Or like a full like pile of it. Just kind of starting with like it being sprinkled on a boo and like that's kind of like you know, it's got its own eroticism and itself there where you can kind of like keep like adding to the booth and all that kind of fun stuff.

Edge : 59:42

I love that you're developing this thematic of starting small or starting slow whether that's a smaller cigar or cigar you don't finish or start by making out and then swap a little smoke or start with just a little bit of ash on the boot. And I think in general when you're getting into things, you don't have to jump into the Deep and you can start really gently in really small steps and I love that you're kind of creating that thematic in your in your answers here

Unknown: 1:00:10

yeah I think I pretty recently talked on the idea of heavy isn't the same as good you can like heavy you can enjoy heavy but that doesn't mean you have to be the heaviest or be like the toughest DOM or like smoke the biggest cigars it's for me and like a lot of the times I'm more interested in hearing what people smoke cigar wise when it's not the asylum eight by AD. Funny enough it's it's more fun to hear like what cigars Do you enjoy other than something like an eight by 80 Asylum. Like my two big ones that I really enjoy are the Asad Kuba, Kuba Maduro, which is five by 50, more mild, more Romick the Maduro rapping that's basically just a darker rap. It makes it like more earthy, I suppose, is the word, but I just kind of like it because it matches leather a bit better than like a more traditional rap. So there's just an image with that. And then I not too long ago was turned on to something called the Aveo classic number two, which is like in that same kind of category of like, infused aerobic cigars. And I think that's yet again, like a five by 50 size.

Edge : 1:01:32

Yeah, you don't have to smoke a particular kind of cigar to be into cigars. I will say I can't stand acids, because they're so sort of flowery. Yeah, God more power to you.

Unknown: 1:01:47

Know, yeah, that's, that's definitely, I mean, and as I've like, smoked more, I think my tastes have gone more towards like full bodied. Because I started enjoying some more. Like, in the 60s 60s, there was like a, there was like a black wrapped one I had recently and it almost had like, hints of like, an expresso to it or something. And it was much more full bodied. But I think as I smoke more, I'm probably leaning that way. But for the time being, I just kind of enjoyed my flowery aerobic ones.

Edge : 1:02:19

I do want to go back to what you were saying about heavy not being good. And you said that you talked about that. I don't know that all of my listeners are familiar with your Twitter, but you do quite a bit of educational videos there, including essentially a book club, and also things that are really thoughtful. How do you see your function on Twitter right now? What is your goal with it?

Unknown: 1:02:44

I think my goal is just it's a lot of, you know, I live in rural Illinois. I'm about 90 minutes away from a Chicago leather bar. And with that, it's kind of allowed me to curate like a little like fun community on the internet. You know, it is nice that I like I gear up every Friday. And like, just talk about something in kink. Whether it's like kink, adjacent in the sense that like I'm just like a gay man. Or sometimes it's like on, you know, like mental health and stuff like that, or just like different fetish topics. Like one of my like, more fun ones I did recently was, like the difference between breeches and pants, which is like definitely something that I don't think I've seen, like many people talk about. So it's kind of just about like finding something like either I've been thinking about or something that maybe I know that a lot of other people don't.

Edge : 1:03:39

Yeah, so people if you're if you're a listener, and you know my Twitter content, and you like it, you definitely want to follow Mr. Rogers, because he's sort of adding to this more thoughtful, reflective, engaged experience space educational side of Twitter that I see, a lot of people are hungry for. Now, if I recall, that was not always what your Twitter was. So can you tell us a little bit about what it used to be and what made you make that pivot?

Unknown: 1:04:10

Yeah, so I got on Twitter, I think, well, I got on Twitter for the same reason I think a lot of people do and that was to start doing porn. Just yeah, it's really funny to me and like I still post like, erotic stuff. I've actually kind of found a better way to engage with it more recently, but yeah, it kind of just started with like, I'm gonna do some porn work and ended up leading to doing some like bondage modeling. It's led to I think me seeing more value in trying to do something I'm feel more passionate about and just talking about kink in leather has been a much better shift in tone for like, what I want to see online. It was kind of like the case of you know, I don't see a lot of people doing This like, like the things like you do edge and like, that's it definitely big inspiration. It's kind of crazy to be like, on your podcast and stuff, that's for sure. But But part of it is also like, you know, it was sort of me, I think realizing that why it was kind of a realization, like, Why was I doing porn work. And I think for me, it was a attachment to wanting to, like feel more attractive in some way. And I think I've kind of learned since then that like, just posting nudes to the internet, like doesn't make me more or less like attractive in a sense, or it's not a good way to kind of like, validate myself. And then now since I've like, kind of swapped over to doing, you know, talking about like leather books, or talking about different leather topics, it's been like much more, I've had much more engagement, which is just way better. For me, I get like, a lot of like, really nice messages sometimes about like what I'm doing, and that's wonderful. It feels really great. It's like, it puts like a smile on my face, just to kind of see that. And then, you know, now it's kind of funny, I've kind of gone full circle with it with you know, I recently put out something that was like, not porn, but I guess porn adjacent. I mean, I guess like the only interest in it is like something to look at that's attractive and hot that I feel good about. But it doesn't feel like porn. So that's kind of been like a fun avenue to kind of go down for me and feel like I'm actually engaging in something that I feel a little bit more passionate about, versus just saying like, here's a jerk off video for my fan site.

Edge : 1:06:36

Yeah, there does seem to be such a hunger for this more real thoughtful educational type of content. And it's not hard to do. I mean, I'm just sharing my experience what I know, I feel like you're just sharing what you're thinking about your experiences. Do you have tips for other people who might want to pivot their Twitter from penises to something a little bit more thoughtful?

Unknown: 1:07:02

Um, you just do it? There's definitely, you know, I definitely had a concern of, you know, when I look at, like, you know, like your edge videos, or something like Christopher Weston and pup amps, like, what's the safe word? You are looking at folks who are like, I mean, you've been in the leather community, I think longer than I've been alive. Like, that I think creates this sort of like, what am I doing talking about kink on the internet, when there's all these, like other much more experienced folks like doing the stuff? And, you know, the answer is like, there is like, people out there who want it. And like, if you think you have something interesting to add to it, it is just about kind of like getting yourself out there and doing it. I know, when I started, it was definitely a fear of, is this gonna go anywhere? Like, how do I feel about it, and it's like, I kind of got to the point of, well, if I just don't want to do it anymore, I guess I can just stop doing it. It's kind of just about, you know, take it, take it in little chunks at a time. And just kind of go for it, see what comes of it. Because I know, compared to like the stuff I was putting out last year, the stuff I'm doing now is like, way more exciting, and I'm much more excited to be doing it. And it's only because I just started.

Edge : 1:08:25

And I'm glad you're doing it. I wish more people would and I love that advice of just do it. You know, it's not about having expertise, I actually think it's really useful and engaging and beneficial for people to see content from people who are just starting out and have questions like they have because then that seems more achievable. Like, I could be that person. He's not that different from me, versus someone like Mr. Christopher, who's clearly not like us. So I'm really glad you're doing that as a way of providing people an entry into the community. And I would encourage more people to do that as well.

Unknown: 1:09:01

Yeah, it's all about getting getting just started with it. And I think also specifically, we want to put this there's kind of a level of just I get a lot of a lot of my interaction when it comes to it is not necessarily people. I mean, obviously people like oh, hey, like cool, new learned a new cool thing from someone, but a lot of it is also when I talk about things like mental health or like feeling a specific way or dealing with a specific emotion. It's a lot about like, Oh, someone's actually talking about feelings that I've had. And what I've noticed, it's it's been a much easier time for myself included to be like, I'm going to talk about this and put it up on Twitter. And then I get a lot of people who are like, I feel the same way or I've had like the same experience and you realize that you're not the only one like dealing with these issues or having those feelings and that's kind of a whole powerful sphere in itself. Have

Edge : 1:10:00

yeah and intimate in its own way. And I I will have to bring this to a close but I am so grateful you have joined us and I, because this turned out to be a conversation about much more than cigars. I love the discussion of the community and fetishes and intimacy and ritual, but also this notion that any one of us can just get started putting real vulnerable authentic content on Twitter. Who knew?

Unknown: 1:10:28

Right, well, thank you for having me on. This was wonderful.

Edge : 1:10:35

And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me, please consider subscribing or you can send feedback to edge at forecast dot show. As always, may your leather journey be blessed