Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. In this episode we explore chastity. I'll note that while I generally try to make all my content gender agnostic, since my experience is only with male chastity this episode is highly gendered. My apologies.
As always Edge starts by sharing his experience and then offers some practical tips for getting into chastity. Then it's the new Ask Edge segment, where Edge answers questions left by listeners, before we end with a special leather bedtime story. Finally, a fantastic interview with Doc, who's in "permanent" "chastity."
Some useful links:
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. In this episode we explore chastity. I'll note that while I generally try to make all my content gender agnostic, since my experience is only with male chastity this episode is highly gendered. My apologies.
As always Edge starts by sharing his experience and then offers some practical tips for getting into chastity. Then it's the new Ask Edge segment, where Edge answers questions left by listeners, before we end with a special leather bedtime story. Finally, a fantastic interview with Doc, who's in "permanent" "chastity."
Some useful links:
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
Let's talk chastity. This podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. Before proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult. Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather, kink and BDSM. My name is Edge, my pronouns are he, him, and I am your host. Chastity is our topic for this episode and I did do an earlier interlude on chastity. That was fairly popular, but after someone asked me to do a series of videos on Instagram, that turned out to be extraordinarily popular and I thought you know what, this topic deserves a full podcast episode. So here we are. As always, i'll start by sharing my experience with chastity, before moving into tips, tricks and how to's based on what I've learned along the way. Then we'll have the new Ask Edge segment, before doing an incredibly important interview with Doc, who is in Permanent Chastity and I am making air quotes around both the word permanent and the word chastity. You'll find out why.
Speaker 1:This, i think is a super good episode and I'm so excited to bring it to you. So let's get started. I can't tell you exactly when my journey in chastity began, and that's a way of indexing how long I've had this desire and how deeply embedded it is within me. I will say that I was motivated by a question. It was a very intellectual pursuit because, as this podcast might suggest, i am a very intellectual kingster and I have been curious for a long time of what would happen if I were in chastity long term. Where would that energy go? Would I somehow become very meek and submissive or would I become more aggressive and enraged, like a caged animal? And that was the question that largely motivated a lot of my explorations of chastity throughout my life. I will say, now that I'm making this podcast and I reflect on it, i have to imagine there was also an intersection with my early interest in bondage, which is where I got started in kink, because chastity, if you think about it, it's really just bondage for your cock and balls. But in the top of my mind was this question of what would happen if I didn't come for weeks. Now this was complicated by the fact that I come super-duper easy, like, if I'm going to masturbate I can probably shoot a load, maybe in a minute, maybe two minutes top. And that's one of the reasons I'm not super interested in sex is because orgasm is super easy for me, super common and therefore kind of valueless. But I was really driven then to find the perfect chastity device, the device that would keep me from coming, that it would not let me come. And that was a long and frustrating journey And I now realize a misguided and misdirected journey. More on that in the next segment.
Speaker 1:So I developed a sort of pattern in my life. I would get interested in chastity. I would buy a device. Oh, this device is not comfortable enough. Okay, let me buy another device. Oh, this one's very comfortable, but I can still just easily shoot with a little bit of stimulation on my head. So I'm going to come in this device. This isn't the device, oh, okay. Well, this doesn't allow me to stimulate my head. It is comfortable, but look, i can just pull my cock right out And then I would give up out of after spending hundreds of dollars.
Speaker 1:I would be frustrated and the chastity desires would sink back down. Then eventually they would rise up again and I would repeat this pattern. I have in the play cabinet, i want to say, two full bins of chastity devices, including some of the classics like the CB 3000 and the bird locked and the holy trainer and, of course, a cobra cage, but also the kind of sort of cheap metal ones you'll find on eBay or Etsy or Alibaba or any of those sites. I was always looking for that perfect device and I never found it, and there are good reasons for that And we'll talk about that more when I get to the next segment.
Speaker 1:So it was most of my journey in Chastity just been a journey of money and frustration, spending a lot of money and then being disappointed again and again and again that I couldn't find this perfect device. That would keep me from coming, and so I eventually just sort of put Chastity away. And then, i would say probably about nine months ago, i was in contact with a very interesting person who was very persuasive and very erotic and very good at working inside my head, and he was finally able to encourage me I'll use the word encourage. He was able to encourage me to sort of do a real Chastity journey. So I chose a cobra cage because if you know anything about Chastity, that is sort of the cage. These days, all of the people I know doing Chastity are using a cobra, and all the people will say they are notoriously hard to fit. So, after the purchase of a few cages and a few rings, i finally found something that would work for me. You'd note, not only have I had the challenge of always coming so easily, but I have fairly small balls, and so that, since we're mainly talking about ball capture devices, that was also a challenge finding something that would actually fit and stay secure. I finally found a combination that worked in the cobra cage and, with this very interesting man's support, i was able to really take a Chastity journey.
Speaker 1:Now what's frustrating for me is that I can't tell you exactly how long I spent in Chastity. I want to say it was 90 days. I do not think that is true. I think practically it was more like 60 days, and this was also facilitated by the fact that I was going through the start of my depression at that time and didn't have a huge sex drive. So I got to say my Chastity run was significant but fairly easy. Because of that experience, i discovered a lot about Chastity.
Speaker 1:First and foremost, Chastity feels so good. That is an incredible feeling to have the right device fitted to your cock and balls, because it's like someone is holding your cock 24 hours a day And throughout the day, as you go to work or you go to the gym or you're running errands or you're laying around the house, your attention and awareness is constantly brought back to your cock, which is so erotic and so wonderful feeling. Chastity also made me feel very safe. I was still, i think, dealing with the aftermath of a breakup and it was very easy for me to not seek sexual activity because I was locked up. So it gave me a wonderful feeling of safety.
Speaker 1:Things I didn't have to deal with because I couldn't deal with. There were parts of it that were challenging. I had to learn how to lubricate and how to clean, and I had to learn how to deal with nighttime erections, which are certainly a thing, but you know more on that in the next segment. Overall, it was an amazing journey and I think for me the most amazing part was milking. Now I'm doing this all by myself, because the gentleman encouraging me lived on the catechorn of the country. In the first time I tried to milk myself.
Speaker 1:From his recommendation, i used a vibrator kind of on my taint and on the bottom of the ring of the cage and I certainly ejaculated, but it felt kind of pleasurable. Now it's surely still interesting, because I wasn't at all hard, but it did feel like an actual orgasm, not a ruined orgasm and not a milking, and I thought, well, that's not quite what I'm looking for in this experience. So, after I think about another week or two, i tried prostate milking and wow, oh, my god, wow. It was one of the most amazing experiences I've probably had in my sexual life, simply because I did not know my body could do that sort of thing. So I put the prostate tool in and I poke, poke, poke and then cum just fell out of my cock without any tension, without any release and without even an iota of pleasure and it was an incredible feeling because I'm used to how my body operates and suddenly I saw my body operating in a whole new way and that was thrilling.
Speaker 1:So I definitely, definitely enjoyed that. I eventually sort of decided to end the run in October and I have done a couple of runs of chastity since then, but not long term, and I'm sure I will again. I'm absolutely certain I will return to chastity, but it is one of those desires that in me is a little cyclical. So there will come a point where I'm curious and chastity again, and I will lock myself up again and it will be wonderful again. But that day is not today.
Speaker 1:For now, what the experience has given me, besides this whole new erotic playground I get to play in, is it's given me a beautiful insight into the experience of chastity, because I love having boys in chastity. I think it's super hot And that's in part the level of control I get. But again, if you've listened to my interludes, i'm pretty meh on sex And so if I have a boy who's all locked up, i don't have to worry about getting him off And I'm not interested in getting off. Then we can just have a lot of kink scenes and it's beautiful and it takes a lot of pressure off me. I've had a few boys locked from me, to various degrees of success, but what's amazing is that now, when I talk about them, when I support them, i'm not doing it theoretically.
Speaker 1:I'm not doing it from what someone told me, i'm able to share directly my experience And that is very valuable and increases the intimacy. I do think Chastity is an extraordinary tool for intimacy And I've experienced that with people I've been seeing. I've experienced it with the wicked gentleman who encouraged me to lock up in the first place. I've seen it with various boys who've served me. So I love Chastity. I love it on me, i love it on others. But it has a lot to do with finding the right device and adjusting your expectations for what that device can do And then learning to build slowly into it to create a longer experience, because things do shift over time. You know it's not just unlocked. That's the end of the experience. When you're locked it's the very start of the experience And there are new insights and pleasures that go at every stage of a Chastity journey And they're worth discovering. So I'm glad I finally got Chastity to work for me. In part that was finding the device that worked for me.
Speaker 1:But in part it was finding the approach that worked for me, And I'm grateful to have that as a tool that I can use to give myself pleasure, but also as a tool I can use in my intimate and kinky relationships with various men who come to serve me. So I hope that my own journey perhaps gives you some motivation or inspiration to really commit to Chastity for yourself and to find out what you learn about yourself through that journey. And if that's a journey you want to take and if you're brand new to it, we're going to talk about how to do it with some tips and insights in the next segment. So please stay tuned. Music playing]. If you take no other message from this episode, please take this.
Speaker 1:Chastity, i believe, has been relentlessly and wrongly coded as submissive. So if you're locked up, you must be a boy or a slave, or a pup or a cub or something like that. I don't think that's true. Instead, i would invite you to consider Chastity as a tool for harvesting, storing and redirecting sexual energy, and it is a tool available to anyone, based on their goals and their needs. So, for example, i have a friend who's a top who wanted to learn how to come only while fucking. So he used Chastity. I know boys who wanted to learn how to come hands-free or experience anal orgasms Chastity. I have a boy right now who's really interested in transformation and wants to shrink his cock Chastity. It can also be used to foster intimacy in a relationship, to stop your focus on sex, because maybe you want to really learn how to get more pleasure out of kink or simply to put energy someplace else so that you're not jacking off all the time and you can actually get some other things done. As part of that, you really want to think of the Chastity device itself as a token, and tokens in general are physical manifestation of larger ideas Like here's a token of my esteem, here's a token of my gratitude, here's a token of my love. It is a physical thing representing an idea, and the Chastity device is a token of your commitment to you or to someone else. It is a reminder of physical manifestation of that commitment. This is also a way of saying no Chastity device is perfect.
Speaker 1:Devices can be defeated, but the device isn't really there to stop ejaculation or orgasm. Instead, it's there to act as an interruption between thought and action. It makes you stop for a moment so that you can be reminded of the commitment And during that pause you can learn to then reorient and redirect that impulse and that energy. So if we think of a Chastity device as a token, if we think of the main thing as the commitment, and if we think of Chastity in general as a tool, that's really great because it means you don't need the most effective Chastity device. You need the most comfortable Chastity device, and the device itself is a part of the tool of Chastity. It is your commitment and your following through. So it is literally a tool that you use in order to meet your commitment, to move towards your goals, to meet your needs.
Speaker 1:That Chastity is designed for. Plus, it just feels super duper good. Chastity is an incredible feeling because it is like someone holding your cock all day. Every day, it constantly brings your attention back to your cock And that is extraordinarily erotic. Now my general approach is that kink in general is a team sport. You know, if I'm fisting someone, i'm not really shoving my hand up their ass. I'm working with them, i'm listening to their feedback to make sure we both have pleasure. Same thing with bondage, same thing with flogging and the same thing with Chastity. Chastity is best done with someone. Now that doesn't have to be a key holder, it could just be a support team. There are a lot of people into Chastity online. There are a lot of people into Chastity, probably around you, or there might just be people who support you, but you need people around you to encourage you and to support you through Chastity.
Speaker 1:The most special form of this is a key holder, and that is the individual you designate to hold the key to your device. Key holding is independent of other relationships, so you might have a husband and a key holder. You might have a master but a separate key holder. The key holder is about safety. The key holder guarantees that you feel safe as you explore Chastity, and that's not just the safety of making sure you can't unlock yourself. It is about emotional safety as well that that person is there to support you in the challenging times. That person has also thought about what to do in emergencies, so there's some sort of emergency key that will enhance your physical safety as well. If you're going to explore Chastity, then you want to be thinking about who's on your team Best friends, acquaintances, that you want to grow closer to partners, boyfriends, dominance, submissives, brothers, literal or otherwise, you want to think about who your team is And then you want to think about what device to use.
Speaker 1:Now, in general, there are two approaches to Chastity devices. There are belts and there are ball capture devices. Belts are exactly what they sound like. It is a usually flexible metal belt that locks fully around your lace with some sort of tube for the penis and then locking it all together so that there is good entrapment of the penis And you can't take it off because it's locked around you. These can get fairly expensive if you think about something like Carrera Designs, which is a kind of Rolls-Royce of Chastity belts. But if you look online at Etsy or eBay or Amazon, you will find any number of variously effective, various quality belts.
Speaker 1:More common, i think, probably because they're a little less logistically complicated and often cheaper, are the ball capture devices, and these again are exactly what they sound like. They work by capturing your balls, so there is a cock ring that goes around the cock and balls And then there is a separate cage that locks on And therefore you can't take it off without ripping off your balls. These two can get expensive. Steelworks is sort of the Rolls-Royce, i think, of ball capture devices, but there are a ton of affordable and effective options And that's probably one of the reasons so many people choose ball capture. Historically, for me the groundbreaking device was the CB3000, which was made out of plastic, had a series of rings, had spacers. It was actually pretty complex, but it was one of the first chassis devices I recall from my kink history that really took off, that everyone was using.
Speaker 1:Then for a little while there was a device called Birdlocked That became very popular. It was sort of a squishy rubber device that had a strap that would separate the balls, And people really liked that for a little while. The next big revolution, I recall, is the Holy Trainer, And the Holy Trainer, to my memory, is the first device that integrated the tiny little lock that we now see in almost every device. It also had an anatomically shaped ring, So the ring on the Holy Trainer curves backwards at the bottom as your body curves backwards towards your taint. That increased comfort for a lot of people and was a bit of a revolution. And the Holy Trainer continues to evolve. Now the latest version has an integrated lock which looks really sexy.
Speaker 1:After the Holy Trainer, the device that sort of captured the imagination of everyone I know in Dechacity is the Cobra Cage by Kink 3D. It is 3D printed, It is well designed And, if you get the sizing right, it is extremely comfortable if you get the sizing right, Because notoriously the Cobra Cage is a sizing nightmare. Just trying to figure out what size ring to get and then what size cage can take a lot of work. Now I'll say I've had really good experiences with the staff at Kink 3D. They've answered my emails. I've sent them videos of a device on my cock and balls and they've been able to say oh, that looks like the ring's too big. You know they're very good. There's also a very active subreddit on Kink 3D.
Speaker 1:But in general I would say if you're gonna go for the Cobra, you might expect to buy a few until you get the ring right. The good news is there is a secondary market for Cobra rings and cages on Reddit and that can help you explore at a little bit better price point. Once you get it right, it is super comfortable. Now I bought my Cobra Cage from Kink 3D because I believe in supporting queer businesses and their intellectual property, but it has been imitated by any number of off-brand makers in China and elsewhere. So if you do enough searching on Etsy and eBay and Amazon, you're gonna find a lot of cages that look like the Cobra. I can't speak to the quality or to the comfort or to the effectiveness, but I do acknowledge that I have the socioeconomic resources to buy from Kink 3D and to buy several rings from Kink 3D. So your own economic positioning may lead you to different decisions that you may want to or may only be able to afford something that is essentially a knockoff, And that's okay, you know I'm leaving that to you.
Speaker 1:Some general tips. When starting to explore chastity, i recommend you trim your pubes because if not they will pinch And every chastity device I know has something that snaps to something And pubes are just like they like to get into the smallest, tiniest little cracks that just are barely there and then they pinch And it does not feel good. You will want to lube frequently. I use a silicone lube and I use a tiny makeup brush which allows me to kind of get some lube up inside the cage and on the inside of the ring And then I kind of rotate the ring back and forth to get that lube all around.
Speaker 1:Lubrication can be important or you will experience some irritation. You're also going to want to think about a maintenance schedule, because things get stinky down there and, based on your personal biome whether you're cut or uncut and your tolerance for funky smells you may need to unlock and wash and shower and clean the cage more or less often. You will determine that in part through experience, but also perhaps in consultation with your key holder, should you have one. In general, you have to pee to sit down. I don't think that's a big deal. I don't think it's less. I don't think it's demasculinizing in any way, considering you have to do the same if you have a Prince Albert piercing and that scene is somehow ultramasculine.
Speaker 1:So I often just pee when I sit down anyway, You can pee while you're standing up in something like the Cobra cage if the alignment is perfect, if the head of your penis is right where it's supposed to be in the cage. However, be warned penises can be vindictive, absolutely vindictive, and they will wriggle just out of alignment and you'll go to pee and you end up with pee everywhere. It's happened to me. It is a thing, it is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. The biggest challenge for chastity is going to be nighttime erections. Depending on your age and depending on your personal hormonal makeup, these may come more or less often, but I promise you they will come and they hurt, because what happens is the penis gets hard, it pushes the cage way, way, way up as it's getting hard and as it does, that is pulling the ring against the balls. So your balls are in extraordinary pain because they are being pulled super tight. The solution is get out of bed and pee and then usually the erection will go down. The good news is these get better over time and it's not so much that you stop having to pee in the middle of the night, but your brain kind of figures out what's going on, and so what I found was I would just start getting hard and something in my brain would say oh okay, i know where this is going, this is going to pain town, and it would wake me up before I was fully hard so that I could pee without experiencing the pain of having my balls pulled off my body.
Speaker 1:I generally recommend as well erotic hygiene, and here's what I mean by that, and it's my own little term. You know, it's not just a physical hygiene. You want to keep your device clean and your body clean, but you kind of want to keep your mind clean as well, and I discovered this because I've known some people exploring chastity. And what happens is, at some point you get horny and your first impulse is going to be I'm going to look at porn, i'm going to play with my hole, i'm going to play with my tits. Doing things that make you horny while you're horny will not make you less horny. Let me repeat that doing things that make you horny while you're horny will not make you less horny. So I like to recommend instead erotic hygiene, and that means avoiding pornography or anything else that's going to inflame your sexual desire. While you're trying to tame your sexual desire, do not inflame it, tame it.
Speaker 1:At some point, after a couple of weeks of chastity, you'll also want to learn how to milk. This might be something you do to yourself, or it might be something that someone does to you. If they're doing it to you, it can be within a context of a scene, and therefore, very highly ritualized and eroticized.
Speaker 1:But milking generally involves prostate stimulation and it's kind of making sure that all the pipes stay clean by releasing seminal fluids and ejaculate. So there are devices that are made for this, that are kind of designed to go up your butt and poke your prostate, And when it hits the prostate your cum just drops out. I don't even know how else to describe it. It is a bizarre experience, but a pretty fantastic one. In terms of timelines, nothing in kink starts at 100. We always start slow and build to a limit, press against that limit to expand it. That is how kink works, And the same is true with chastity. And when you first get the device it's gonna be hard to even put it on because you're going to be hard. It's exciting, it's erotic, You might take, you're gonna have to jack off or you're gonna have to do something and get your penis down so you can put it in the damn cage. I recommend start with just a few hours wearing the cage around the house, testing for basic comfort Is the ring too tight or too loose? in particular, Once you're good at wearing the device for a few hours at a time, then you wanna look for some milestones. So, for example, going to the gym, and particularly if you're doing squats. That's an important milestone, I know.
Speaker 1:For me, a big one was wearing my chastity device to work for the first time, or even leaving the house at all for the first time. Your goal in these milestones is to slowly build to the point where you feel comfortable enough And that means physical comfort, but also emotional, internal comfort where you feel comfortable enough to wear the device for a whole day, Not sleep in it for a whole day, from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. Now, eventually, you're going to want to sleep in your device, And that's when you're gonna discover, first of all, how comfortable is it to sleep in. I tend to sleep on my stomach, so I needed a device that wasn't sort of poking me in the groin the whole time so I could fall asleep. The Cobra cage has been really good with that. So you will then experience the nighttime erections. It's gonna hurt. You will get up, you will pee, you will remain committed, I hope, because it's a huge, huge milestone to spend 24 continuous hours in chastity.
Speaker 1:And what makes it so huge is, once you know that you can spend 24 hours in chastity, then it's as simple as repeating that one day at a time. Then the next big milestone is doing a full week in chastity, continuous chastity. Then you just have to repeat that one week at a time. What you're doing is creating a track record for yourself and ability to move through your life while locked, and it is something you conquer a little bit at a time until before you know it you've been in some long-term chastity. I will say going long-term has some special pleasures involved with it.
Speaker 1:When I first did chastity I had someone encouraging me and he told me something would happen around week three, and he was right. So somewhere after three weeks of being continuously locked, my penis started feeling like it wasn't really a part of my body anymore, or it felt like it was naturally just this plastic chunk, and it was a little alien feeling both the feeling itself and the fact that my penis felt like an alien. But it was deeply erotic and created a kind of shift in my mind that actually made the rest of the chastity I did pretty easy. So I really wanna encourage you to get to that three to four week mark to see how your brain rewires, how your brain and your comportment and your sense of yourself in your body changes. The other thing to be aware of is that your penis will shrink over time. Now, that's gonna be very exciting for some people. That's gonna be a little scary for some people. Let's be clear it doesn't stay shrunken for all your life. If you take off the device, it will go back to its normal size. But the brain learns like, okay, there's not a room, a lot of room down there, let's not send a lot of blood down there.
Speaker 1:And what I experienced is I started with a Cobra cage. I started with an S, which is a fairly standard cage, and at some point it became less comfortable because my head of my penis was no longer in the space for the head on the cage. It was pulling back and therefore it was rubbing against the little ridge between the shaft of the cage and the head of the cage. And what I did? I sized down to a smaller cage. Everything felt wonderful. And then I experienced again I was in the N plus. The cock retreated a little bit, the cage become a little less comfortable and I went to an N. It is an exciting part of the journey, I think and worth experiencing, particularly when you're safe, knowing that it's not permanent.
Speaker 1:You simply take off the device and it will come back. I swear I will say if you've been in long-term chastity too that when you take off the device you can have a kind of ghost device feeling like if you're going to sleep You may feel like your cock is still locked, which is another interesting experience. Now, ultimately, i want all the pleasures. Right, i love pleasure and I want all of them, and that means I'm not gonna deny myself certain pleasures because I'm not supposed to have them. That's the problem when we relentlessly and wrongly code chastity as submissive. If I'm dominant-identified, as I am right now, then that becomes a pleasure. I'm not allowed to have Bullshit. I want all the pleasures, and chastity feels amazing and good, and that's why I want to pursue chastity.
Speaker 1:I do think in this journey it's good to have some goals. Whether I want to learn how to come hands-free, i want to make sure I save this sexual energy for the big scene I'm gonna have with my favorite boy in two weeks. You should have some goals because, as a tool, chastity is best at helping you achieve something. So I have a sense of what that something's going to be, but that's not required. You can simply enjoy chastity, because chastity is enjoyable and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So I hope this has been helpful and I hope that, wherever you are in your chastity journey, you decide to continue the exploration, because it is an exploration into pleasure and a kind of pleasure where you also learn about yourself and how you work and how you operate, and I think that's one of the beautiful things about kink Kink's not just about getting off, it is about growing, it is about becoming more of who you are and it is about discovering who you are, and chastity can be a really, really fantastic tool as part of that process.
Speaker 1:Ask Edge is an opportunity to ask me questions about anything and I will respond here on the podcast. You can email your questions to ask at fullcalshow or you can leave me a voicemail at speakpipecom. Slash, leatheredge, lthredge and those links are available in the show notes. We have one question this time from Austin.
Speaker 2:Hi Edge, my name is Austin, i'm out of Houston, texas, and pronouns are he, him, his. My question pertains to vanilla people. I just got into the leather community less than a year ago and with that comes a lot of changes in who I am as a person. I'm going to new events, posting things online, expressing opinions that I didn't use, to changing the way that I dress and all sorts of things like that. I feel like I'm finally embracing a side of myself that makes me feel happy, and I found a sense of community and a chosen family That I'm very grateful for and supports me. Do you have any advice or tips on how to reassure people Not in the community, like my vanilla friends and family? That, yes, i've changed, but I'm happy. Keep up the great work. I love hearing your podcast every day.
Speaker 1:What a great question. You know, really, what you're asking about is coming out, but coming out in leather and kink, and I think, for those of us who are queer, we can draw on our previous experience with coming out. So you talked about How your vanilla friends and family think you've changed and wondering why you've changed, but the truth is, you've always been a kinky person. You're just finally able to express it. Similarly, if I am coming out as a gay man, people might think, well, what you changed? No, i was always a gay man, but now I'm comfortable, confident, strong enough, courageous enough to live as one. So, based on your particular histories with these vanilla people, you might be able to use that analogy to help them understand that this isn't a change in who you are, but a new expression of who you've always been.
Speaker 1:The other thing that might be useful, depending on how intimate you are with these people, is to bring them into the community with you, take them to a local bar or local event so they can see you in that environment and That they can learn more about what kink and leather is, and that might reassure them if they have particular concerns about your safety, for example. Ultimately, the proof, though, is in the pudding. What I mean by that is that They are going to see as you live your life, your new kinky leather life. They're going to see that you're joyful. They're going to see that you're happy and confident and at peace with who you are, and If they love you, then they will love this part of you and they will love that you have this for you, because people who love us only want us to be happy, and it's not telling people.
Speaker 1:Oh no, i'm really happy. Oh no, I'm really happy. Oh no, i'm really happy. It is the fact that they will witness it as you move through life. So I hope that, using analogies like coming out, providing them education and opportunities to sample your new life and letting them really see the person you are and that you really are happy, i hope those things might provide some useful strategies as you deal with people Who you love and who love you, but who may have challenges in coming to understand this part of your life. I will add how amazing is it that you even have vanilla people who you're able to share this with Historically and that is not something that would happen.
Speaker 1:I think my sister might have some sense. My parents Well, my dad found out by accident. My mom never knew. Most the people in my life who are not part of my kinky life don't necessarily know about my kinky life. So, also for you recognize how F and fantastic it is that you have people who love you enough and are open enough that you can even share this to any degree, and That they really are genuinely concerned with your happiness. That's a fantastic thing. I'm so grateful for your question because it's the only one I got come on. People then ask edge some questions please. And Thanks, austin, i hope you're doing great. I'm very excited for you in your journey And I hope our paths cross at some event or other. I am absolutely thrilled to be here with doc to discuss Chastity. Doc, welcome to full cow.
Speaker 3:Good morning. Thank you for having me long-time listener first time call.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So can you start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community?
Speaker 3:Sure, my pronouns are he, him. And If you had how I identify, if you'd asked me Ten years ago, i tell you I was predominantly top with a submissive side, but now I'd say I am predominantly submissive with a slight Dom streak.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful how we evolve like that, so I was super eager to speak with you for this episode, because you are in Permanent Chastity, is that correct?
Speaker 3:as Permanent as one can be. I like to call it essentially.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you made that clarification because I think you know permanent Chastity is something that Really turns a lot of people on and also terrifies them. So can you start by giving us a sense of the actual logistics of what that means On a sort of day-to-day basis, or how often you unlock, or, if you ever unlock, give us a, give us a glimpse into the life of quote-unquote permanent Chastity?
Speaker 3:so I unlock Probably as long as there's no issues which that's something anybody who's interested in Chastity needs to be aware of Usually at about once a month. The device that I currently wear is Pretty easy to keep spotlessly clean with the routine that I go through. But you know there's Hair. It's always a problem when you're locked, so you know it needs to be removed for a shorter, trim So, and then you have to get a good clean cage.
Speaker 3:But so maybe I'm unlocked a few hours here and there, and then of course, if you're going to doctor or through the airport security. You know that's always a concern. So It's, you know it's not 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, but it's I. I've probably been unlocked for maybe a handful of hours over the over, the over each, you know, each month at the most.
Speaker 1:I Think that's gonna be a lot really reassuring for a lot of people because it makes it more achievable.
Speaker 3:It's very achievable With time, a little bit of patience and finding the right device for you, and that's really critical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's talk about that. I know you've been exploring chassis for a while. Can you kind of give us a quick review of your chastity journey and the different devices you've?
Speaker 3:used. Oh God, yes, so this started. So chastity and and just as a quick, i don't like the word chastity Because I ain't chased I Think I have more more fun, more sacks now than before It's just It's not centered on my, my Dick, it's centered on other people's and other parts of my body. But so I think chastity is a poor description of. But it started When I probably about 30 something years ago, and it didn't start with a Device, it started with orgasm denial and I was this is a kink. I did not know I had I A lot of kinks that I have known about since I was a Child, that I've always been turned on. This never crossed my mind, but I was in my very first serious, you know, masked little daddy boy relationship and He started playing with orgasm denial and that was Really really amazing for me, and so that kind of morphed into Being a more formal thing with the first cages.
Speaker 3:And this was back in In the 90s, which you know you and I have a certain age. There was no internet. There was, you know. You had the mrS catalog. You got in the mail and Luckily I was living in the Bay Area and so It was. I think it was a Falsum Street Fair in the early 90s where we saw the very first device. I don't call them cages because They're not a cage, i mean and I hate the word to, i'm too no, that's terrible, we need a better vocabulary. But so that very first device, oh god they were. They were awful, but that's where we started with. You couldn't wear them for more than maybe a few hours, or maybe a day or two, but and is that this was at the CB series or is it even before the CB?
Speaker 3:2000 was the first Plastic twice there's none before that was called the Houdini. It was basically a handcuff with a metal tube on it.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, I've seen those. They look so uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:It was awful, awful. And then the CB 2000 seemed like such an improvement. They were not very well made and what would happen, as you know? you know you can't help when you were at night. When you're asleep you get an erection and I Don't not. I don't want to brag, i don't want to sound, i don't have a corn star dick, but I'm not small And that was plastic that was welded with a seam on the top and the bottom, and the one night I split it in half and then, as My erection subsided, it closed and The shit of me. It was awful. So It wasn't really until It was a few years where they started.
Speaker 3:You started to see the design become better, that being in it more than For a few hours or maybe a day or two became possible. So we sort of just you, limped along for a long time and I tried yes me how many? but I have probably tried them all From this, the CB 2000. I had a curve which was ridiculously huge. I mean it was. Then I think the CB 6000 was the first one that I could actually stay in for a fair amount of time. I had a silicon device which doesn't count because it's stretchy and it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Was that the bird locked?
Speaker 3:Yes, it was the bird lock.
Speaker 1:They're the best things to jack off into It. Totally doesn't count.
Speaker 3:That is Not. That is not having giving up control of your day.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry but it feels good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then You know, more recently, there's been so many really good devices now but my anatomy is such that some of those don't work well for me. But you know, so I've been in. I eventually really had to go to custom to do what I'm doing now, but I've had a Holy Trainer. I've had the Evotion pages, which I actually like because they are semi-custom. I've had a Steelworks with an O and then when this became serious about five years ago that this was going to be a full-time thing, eventually ended up in Steelworks. The guys from Canada, which is a completely custom cage, and they're fantastic. They're very expensive, so they're not for casual players, but there's a lot of really good devices for people who are just wanting to get started, far better than what was available when I was a young locked man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that you've given us really a history of the available devices, and I mean right now it's all about the Cobra from Kid3D. I think that's what all the cool kids are wearing.
Speaker 3:I think it was sticks and twigs and twine when I started. The Cobra is a fantastic device and it's quite versatile, very popular. I have two because I use a plastic device for traveling because I'm not allowed to be unlocked, but they're very airport friendly. With my particular anatomy, anybody who happens to have fairly large balls will find that, like the Holly trainer and the Cobra, which tend to push your penis downwards, they're very angled down, don't fit very well. I think the majority of people they'll be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to get back to something you said when you were talking about our lack of terminology and how this really is in Chastity. For you, chastity does feel good, absolutely. But I'm also curious now that, with your long-term Chastity, how often do you milk? How do you milk when you come out of the device? Are you able to get an erection? Let's go through the biological maintenance.
Speaker 3:So as far as the erection goes, yeah, they happen in the device, out of the device. I think it happens more often than it used to, and they're quite powerful. Oh gosh, it was my turn to talk.
Speaker 1:The milking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i do do that fairly regularly actually because I really enjoy that And since I really don't, i'm not allowed very many full orgasms. It's rather important to keep your prostate healthy, but I do leak a lot and that's and I never did before I was locked. I never thought I could. I've heard about like PCOM and it's happening all the time and that feels amazing. So it's going to vary for different people but for me, probably a couple times a week I'll usually be playing in my prostate, unless somebody else is doing it for me and generally if I'm being fucked, it's going to happen anyway.
Speaker 1:Wow, you've said so many things that I think are worth exploring and repeating. When you talked about starting to leak when you got locked into chastity, i know at least two boys who discovered their balls only after they were locked in chastity.
Speaker 3:Who can come from having their balls like well, I absolutely can, but I could do that before.
Speaker 1:So but it's. The larger lesson here is, when you get locked in chastity, you discover these new pleasures or these new abilities.
Speaker 3:It actually for me and probably for many others and I know a few others because I talked to a lot of several. You know number of people it does rewire you, or at least you become much more aware of other areas that are pleasurable, which is why I kind of now describe myself. As you know, i have a dominant streak, but I much prefer being on the bottom because my ass and my balls and my nips particularly have well, they are always pleasurable and sensitive. They have just become a major focus. When you take the focus off your penis, it's amazing what you find out about your body. I mean, your brain is your largest sexual organ and it just really sort of focuses you on other areas that you can find pleasurable.
Speaker 1:That's such an important lesson too, because I feel like gay male culture in particular is so cock-centered.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And to take that off the table and discover like well, i can produce pleasure from any point on my body. That's greater, that can last longer than an orgasm. What a beautiful discovery.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i know, in a prostate orgasm, i call it, or a whole body, i mean I have had those and it's never had one before and they are amazing. And you also find I find much more pleasure in other people's orgasms.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you mentioned that, because I feel like a lot of men would love to play with someone who's locked because they don't have to worry about that person's dick, right Like you can get off and be like because I get a lot of anxiety about getting my partner off, but if they're locked I'm like, okay, well, he's going to get his pleasure somewhere else.
Speaker 3:And so Part of the pleasure is not getting off. To be honest with you, getting wanting to but not being allowed to is a huge deal. It's a big part.
Speaker 1:When you broaden the scope of pleasure away from orgasm. It's a pretty infinite field, which is beautiful.
Speaker 3:It is, it is And it's really opened up a whole new world for me. And I look back and when I was predominantly dominant and it was like all about me, me, me, and not that I didn't want other people to have pleasure, i always wanted them to have a good time, i always wanted to make sure everybody got what they needed, but I was very focused on my dick and my orgasm, and that my world is completely changed because of this, which is I'm thrilled about it.
Speaker 1:And yet, ironically, you're still getting all the pleasure you could possibly want.
Speaker 3:I'm in the middle of the beauty. I would say more.
Speaker 1:More.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So have you had any problems? You know, have you had any issues with balls or cock or or, besides getting your dick trapped in the CB 2000?
Speaker 3:That was the first. That was the first. I'm the worst.
Speaker 1:Have there been any pitfalls where you've needed a more extended period unlocked?
Speaker 3:Yes, particularly in some in the earlier devices or in my biggest problem is the ring. That took me quite a long time to get right And so early on when we started into the permanent chastity or essentially permanent chastity I went through several devices looking for one that would work And I had really great advice from people like Thumper and Dool Drew, who are good friends, and I reached out to them It five years ago. We've become fairly friendly since 10, our little blog, your chastity blogger group, and I. Several times I got wounds around where the base ring, particularly underneath, and I was stupid And I'm going to tell anybody who's starting this. Don't be, don't be like me. You just kind of, especially when you're just getting into it, you're like I'm going to do this, i can do it, i'm going to power through, and it just makes it worse And then and you know, you only have one dick and you have to have something to lock. You don't, you don't want to lose it.
Speaker 3:So what happens if you get a small problem starting, if you don't take the cage off and you should take it off immediately you're going to end up having the cage off for weeks, And that's what happened in the beginning. Now I'm much more attuned to it That there's anything starting, I'll know right away. But with the devices I have now that that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:I lost my train of thought, so give me a second. I'm going to edit this part out.
Speaker 3:And it happens to me a lot It's called getting out.
Speaker 1:man, I hate it. I don't want to get old. I don't leave this part in because I think people get a kick out of it. So do you have advice? you gave some advice just now for people who are just starting, which is really listen to your body. Do you have other advice for people who might be starting to explore Chastity?
Speaker 3:Oh, there's, there's a lot. First of all, there's a lot of really good information now online. I read a lot of really good blogs. There are some good websites that can walk you through it, but my Cancel'll. But when people ask me, number one is find a device that fits you, that's comfortable to wear. It shouldn't be tortured to wear it. In fact, most of the time you shouldn't even be aware it's on. The other thing is to start slow. You're not going to lock yourself up and stay locked in the beginning for a month.
Speaker 3:Start for a day or two, make sure everything fits and then gradually go longer and longer. And the other thing is don't start doing this on any time. You need to have a good night's sleep, because you are not going to have one for the first two weeks. You're just going to have to power through that. I'm sorry, but it's going to wake you up three, four, five times a night. It just absolutely is.
Speaker 1:But eventually I mean I know, when I was doing longer term chest I found like my brain learned The moment I started getting hard. I was like wake up now and go pee now Yeah, that's always, that always works.
Speaker 3:But yeah it takes a couple of weeks, it did. It took me, i think, three weeks before I slept through the night in the beginning, but it happens. You just have to be willing to put up with it. Power through that a bit. So if you're going on vacation, or I would start on a Friday, not on a Monday- Not before the big work presentation. Not before the big yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Now you it sounds like you've mostly done ball capture devices Have you explored belts or what are your experience with?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i have done only ball capture devices. I do have friends with belts. I'm really actually very interested in them. I try to behind bars belt But again, with the quirk of my anatomy, which is I have very large balls, it was very hard for it to be comfortable. I have a friend with a Carrara that I love to have one, although I contacted them about two years ago and they said, yeah, we'll get to you, and I never heard back. So they're customers. So I mean it's one guy with a lot of people in Belgium, i think, but I have not, so I have not been in one. But they are fascinating. I happen to like the look of the Carrara. It's very medieval And I find it very sexy. I know some people don't, but that's true with every device, but so I have it. I've all just basically always been an evolved trap device, but mine is. You know, they're quite secure if you have a piercing, which is probably something we should talk about, because if you really are serious about chassity you have to have one.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about that. You have a PA which is part of the locking mechanism of your steelwork. Did you get the PA for chassity?
Speaker 3:I did not. I got the PA because I wanted a PA. I actually got it at IML, which was probably not the best idea in the world years ago, but yeah, no, i got it way before I was ever considering permanent chassity.
Speaker 1:And this I mean. It's essentially an anti-pullout device.
Speaker 3:So there's no device that's inescapable. If you have a will and a home depot down the street, you know there's nothing you can't get out of. But there is no ball trap cage on the market that you can't easily slip your dick out of with a little bit of soap And you know. You can slip it out, you can slip it back in, nobody would know, you can jerk off. You want to have that security, you need to have a piercing and it needs to. Like mine is locked into the cage, so without the key or without destroying the cage, i'm not getting out, which is a huge part of the joy of this. For me, it's like it's taken all the control away, which is really what I think ultimately with chastity is is giving up control. I feel like it's the ultimate submissive act in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:And just for the listeners when you talk about the key for your device. It is a very special screwdriver. They can't get a home depot. It's a very special screwdriver which.
Speaker 3:I can't see anymore because I'm in my 15th, and damn it.
Speaker 1:Chris at COerks is a freaking sadist when they tell me that, and yet, and destroying your device is yours, made of titanium, so this is not. This is not an option.
Speaker 3:It's a dire emergency. But, yeah, the key is a proprietary key and it is really only for people with little hands and really good eyes. But you don't have to have that. Obviously there are the standard. Like some, most of the devices have those brass locks which you know. You can drill them out. There are ways to get out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I'm going to spoil chastity for a lot of people right now. They're all keyed the same. So I mean, if you have a key, you have a key to every chastity lock.
Speaker 3:The ones that use those brass cylinder locks absolutely. And you can also, I don't want to ruin it for them, but if you have a little pair of needle nose pliers you can break. if you can also break that little tab off, It's really easy.
Speaker 1:It's really a ruining chastity for everyone.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry we're killing the fantasy here. It's like I mean, a lot of chastity is mental. The device is part of it, but the device is a physical expression of what's going on in your head. Like I said, you can get out of the device if you're determined And, depending on the device you have, it may be very simple to get out of it. And so you know if anybody's under the fantasy of they're going to be locked up and they're never going to be able to do anything about it, i don't want to ruin that fantasy for them, but it's not true.
Speaker 1:It's not true, in part because of all the practical, hygienic, biological logistics we've talked about. And I mean, this conversation is really important to me because I'm working with someone local and his interest in chastity is shrinking his cock. He's really into this sort of nubbification And so we've had, and he's got, extremely tight ball sack.
Speaker 3:So with the 12trap device it is. That's one of the drawbacks. If you have small or tight sack, it's really hard.
Speaker 1:But, as you pointed out, there are custom options. right now We're going to start exploring the cherry keeper, because it's 3d printed and you can get down to the millimeter precision. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Those are nice devices. The other one to look at is the devotion wearables. They also make their. they also are 3d printed and customizable and relatively reasonable price point, So yeah.
Speaker 1:And this gets back to what you were saying pretty early on, which is you're not looking for the inescapable device, you're looking for the comfortable device.
Speaker 3:And one that's not going to have a problem like. One of the worst problems I had in the early we talked a bit about the ring size is a ball poppage. That's absolutely the worst, especially if you're somewhere and it's like you know one of your balls is out of the ring. It's uncomfortable, and so you know sizing the ring and sizing the gap is particularly important because it's not just the ring, it's the gap, and for me the gap actually has to be fairly a little larger, because my sack is quite big, quite large, but if you are have a tight sack or small type balls, you need a smaller gap so you things don't slide through.
Speaker 1:And I mean if, for people who are listening and you know, Chessie, we're talking about millimeter differences. Oh yeah, There's a big difference between a 10 millimeter gap and a seven millimeter gap.
Speaker 3:And it's a massive difference.
Speaker 1:It may be the difference between whether or not the device stays on.
Speaker 3:And you can measure and do all the things you're supposed to do and you'll still get it wrong And you're going to. So if, when you're starting, start with something where you can make adjustments. You know, like the copras they have, you can order a different part for not a lot of money. The devotion again they also have different sizes and they're a little bit more custom. The cherry keeper I know people who wear them. I have never worn one of those, not particularly into the micro devices. You know the nullification And if anybody, i don't want to ruin it again, i'm going to ruin somebody else's fantasy. If anybody thinks that being in Chastity shrinks your dick, it doesn't. You do pop right back up. It looks like it shrinks for a little bit, but your dick is not a muscle, it doesn't go away And I can tell you after five years.
Speaker 3:I will say small cases, it does come right back, it does come back.
Speaker 1:But my experience was being in a cobra cage. like my brain learned to send less blood there, And when the head pops out, when the head of your dick pops out of the head of the cage, the cage just becomes less comfortable. So you need to get a smaller cage. So it's this beautiful kind of not exactly shrinking, but let's call it shrinking.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 1:But it comes back It does.
Speaker 3:I just don't want anybody. I mean, some people are worried that it's permanent. It's not, and some people are like I want to shrink my head And I'm like then I'm ruining their day because it's not permanent.
Speaker 1:Well, you're not ruining their day. They have to stay in Chastity forever.
Speaker 3:And that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 1:That is perfectly fine.
Speaker 3:Just like me I mean.
Speaker 1:I do feel getting back to this notion of permanent Chastity, I do feel like and I love that your discussion of your experience in logistics has kind of validated this for me. I mean, I think people into Chastity are in permanent Chastity in the sense that they always go back to getting locked. They always return to it. They may not be locked 24, seven or for a whole year, but they're going to keep coming back And that's the permanent part. It becomes a part of your erotic landscape.
Speaker 3:It is, and there's no right way to do Chastity. There's what works for you. I mean it should be great experience, and for me that's the cage not coming off, or at least not my decision. So I mean, i, the only time I'm allowed to take the cage off without permission is if there's a problem And oh, at the airport, because I had a week we can talk about later. But you know, i had a bad experience.
Speaker 3:It wasn't bad, it was just I got caught out, which you know. that's not, that's not fun. I don't want to. I firmly believe in not subjecting the public to your kink if they're not a willing participant, so I do think there's times where things like that are probably inappropriate.
Speaker 1:Well, and and, but I think we should also reassure listeners that TSA has probably seen it and it's going to be an embarrassing moment for you and for them, but you're not going to get arrested.
Speaker 3:So it happened to me, it happened to Thumper and he actually kind of got off on it a little bit because he had to show the cage to like three TSA agents who were giggling. It's actually approved on the TSA site. If you read the list of things that are fine, chastity devices are one of them. So there's not a problem. It's just if you value your streamlined airport experience, it's going to. It may sidetrack you, but so whenever I'm traveling for business or things like that, i'm either in plastic or because I pre-check on all that other stuff and they don't set off the device. And a small amount of metal like your piercings won't set it off, and everybody, including the guys at Steelworks, told me titanium won't set off.
Speaker 2:Metal detectors doesn't set off metal detectors.
Speaker 3:So I was just traveling for fun and I decided to wear the titanium cage and see how it went And let me tell you it sets off metal detectors. So I walked through that and then I got sent to the body scanner and they I got a knowing link and a pat on the shoulder and you're good to go.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And that was in Portland. That's when I went up to get measured from Langlis.
Speaker 1:That made it a very special trip, I'm sure.
Speaker 3:So it's a myth. They won't set off most metal detectors, you know, at ball parks and things like that, because they're not tuned super sensitive. But at airports it absolutely will.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure, the millimeter wave radar that just lights up Absolutely.
Speaker 3:They know it's there And so bumper got pulled into. he was wearing plastic too. He got pulled into a room. That didn't happen to me, thankfully, but it was a little bit of a, you know, a moment.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think when you talk about pulling people into your think, I mean into your kink it's really kind of about consent right, Like that TSA agent has not been consented, It's not consented to, that's right, Because some people would get off on like showing it off. But yeah, let's stay consensual.
Speaker 3:I mean Thumpy had, he didn't intend to do it. He's not that kind of guy. He really also doesn't, you know, he doesn't believe in what he calls certain muggle, you know, letting the muggles into it. But he did kind of get turned on by it. But yeah, no, I try to avoid that at all, as much as possible, I mean that's I agree. I don't believe it's fair to impose your particular kinks or what on on, on without consent and vice versa.
Speaker 1:This has been such a wonderful conversation. I feel like we could talk for much longer, but I'm I'm mindful of your time today on the weekend, holiday weekend, memorial Day. We are recording this Memorial Day weekend And I'm also mindful of how long the podcast episode's going to be, so I'm going to ask you to have any final words for people getting into Chassidy, whether they're locking or being locked.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So my best advice is do some research, read the blogs. Read, you know, look, talk to people who are locked. There's lots of them on Twitter, you have. The internet is such a resource right now. I mean, it's amazing. I'm so jealous. I wish this had been around when, when you know, i was younger because, you know, i thought I didn't know anybody who was locked. I knew people work because they made the devices, but I didn't know anybody. So there's a huge community out there. There's Twitter, there's blogs and Reddit.
Speaker 3:Reddit, fetlife, all of that, the you know and just go slow, listen to your body and then you know, have fun. That's the biggest thing, have fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and if you're enjoying it, you can have a lifetime of enjoyment in it, as you are living proof.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're at just shy of five years. Wow, that is since this started.
Speaker 1:And it's fantastic.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 1:I just I just can't say how grateful I am because you do have such a wealth of experience and you know a lot of people who listen to the podcast are just discovering things, so I'm just super grateful you took the time to speak with us today.
Speaker 3:Thanks for coming on the show. It's a pleasure to always, always a pleasure to talk with you. All right And to you, aw, thank you And have a great weekend You too.
Speaker 1:And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Please consider subscribing, or you can send feedback to edge at full cowshow, as always. May your leather journey be blessed.