Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community.
In this episode we consider one of the most iconic pairings, one that sits mythologically at the center of the leather / kink imaginary: Master and slave. We start with Edge's experience with this particular kink identity, thinking about how kink identities, in general, can shift and change and evolve. Then during our Q&A we think about how to wear leather and still look submissive as well as how the greater inclusion of trans and genderqueer peoples has impacted the community. Finally, we have a conversation with Phil, author of Light and Shadow: The Psychology of Master/slave Relationships, and a former guest on the submission episode.
Some links:
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community.
In this episode we consider one of the most iconic pairings, one that sits mythologically at the center of the leather / kink imaginary: Master and slave. We start with Edge's experience with this particular kink identity, thinking about how kink identities, in general, can shift and change and evolve. Then during our Q&A we think about how to wear leather and still look submissive as well as how the greater inclusion of trans and genderqueer peoples has impacted the community. Finally, we have a conversation with Phil, author of Light and Shadow: The Psychology of Master/slave Relationships, and a former guest on the submission episode.
Some links:
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
Let's talk about Master and Slave. This podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. For proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult. Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather king and BDSM. My name is Edge, my pronouns are he, him, and I am your host, and in this episode we're going to be discussing.
Speaker 2:Master and.
Speaker 1:Slave, and that's a topic we've certainly touched on before, if you think about the episodes on dominance and submission. But we're going to give a sort of deeper dive into the subject because, as a couple, they are so central to our imaginary of what King and BDSM is.
Speaker 1:So I think it's worth a little further meditation, a little unpacking and exploring. I'll start by sharing my very recent experience as a Master, and then we have some good Q&As for Ask Edge, and then we're going to end with an interview with Phil not Slave Phil, phil. Slave Phil appeared as the guest on the episode on submission, but he's had some recent changes in his life as well.
Speaker 1:He's also just written a book that takes a sort of archetype approach to Master and Slave, and I read it. I thought it was quite useful for my journey, and so we'll be talking about that as well and how you might be using it as a tool in your own journey. Overall, I think it's going to be a really, really good episode. So let's get started. If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you have probably heard the story of the boy who changed my life, the boy who awakened within me a new, powerful, authentic dominance. Well, in some ways, we might consider this story the story of the slave who changed my life, potentially changed it. I have never identified a slave. It's not like I've always felt back when I was bottoming slash, submitting. It's not like I felt I was better than a slave. It just wasn't who I was, and I think if you're a slave, you know you're a slave.
Speaker 1:And if you're not sure you're a slave, you might not be a slave. There's something about slavery that is inner, known, inner truth. There was a facility for a while in probably the early aughts, nor the late 90s, called butchman's, where they really focused on this concept of heart of slave and it's just this notion of it's so very core and central to who you are. That was never me, and as I moved into dominance I was never identified as master. People ask me what they should call me. Their standard options are sir, dad, daddy or boss, and I respond to all of those. I feel comfortable in all of those positions, but I have never identified as master.
Speaker 1:In part there's an automatic coupling Masters have slaves. Masters don't have pups. Masters don't have boys. Masters don't have sons. Masters have slaves, and I wasn't interested in having a slave. I didn't think that was anything that called to me. So I both didn't have heart of master, but I also didn't have desire to own someone in that way. Certainly after the boy who changed my life, I had a very clear sense that I wanted a boy. I wanted a boy that eventually I would call her and call my own.
Speaker 1:And slavery was just a step beyond. It's a step beyond into a deeper level of submission and a more full and committed sense of ownership. That's not something I wanted. So along came the slave who changed my life, who didn't even know he was a slave. So recently I was able to resume a friendship with someone that we had been really close, intimate friends, and then we needed to step away from that for a little bit.
Speaker 1:But we've reconnected and there's been this evolution in our dynamic from friends to sir boy to, very surprisingly, master, slave, and that was huge, huge revelation for him, because he was certain he would never, ever call a man master. He was certain he was not a slave. Just as huge a revelation for me, because I never imagined myself as a master or desiring a slave. Now all of this is in some ways theoretical, because the truth is we have not met. We've known each other for several years now, and I mean really sharing the details of our lives through texts on a daily basis, that kind of beautiful, intimate friendship that creates a beautiful foundation for whatever you're going to become. We've known each other for several years and we have not met.
Speaker 1:Now we will be meeting in early November and more will be revealed. But regardless of how that meeting goes and we're both very realistic that, hey, we may just end up as friends the actual, in person, the friction of actual bodies may rub wrong and we may not create a spark but instead a raw spot, and so we are just an understanding that we may just leave as friends. There's an understanding that, no matter what happens when we meet, it's going to be okay. But regardless of how things turn out, I think we both, through our interactions, have discovered new parts of ourselves and I don't see myself now going to seek a slave. There's something unique about the connection in chemistry I have with this slave and I think vice versa. This is something we have called to in each other and parts of us have answered for each other. So what does it mean for me to be master identified?
Speaker 1:Well there's a lot more protocol than I have with boys and, as we discussed in the protocol episode, it is doubly binding and I don't love it. You know, when I am texting him I have to stop and do capital W slash lowercase W E. Capital O slash lowercase O U R. It's pain in the ass. But I need to discipline myself as much as the protocol disciplines him and I need to acknowledge name and honor our dynamic as much as he does. So that part the pronoun thing I'm not thrilled with. The rest of the protocol is very boylike. He's not going to be able to use the furniture while he's here, he's going to be walking behind me to the left and he's going to be opening doors for me. It's not my basic boy protocol but the addition of the pronouns raises it a level.
Speaker 1:The other things that are different than how I would treat a boy is there's such a greater sense of the available depths of experience, like I'm more talking about going places much deeper, faster than I would go with a boy in terms of pain, in terms of certain kinks, in terms of getting inside his head, in terms of making decisions for him.
Speaker 1:All of those things are happening much deeper, faster than I would with a boy. So I am exerting more control in his life than I would with a boy and in a corresponding sense, I feel more protective of him as a piece of my property. I am more concerned for his welfare. I am more concerned that he's doing self-care, that he is thriving in his life in order to be able to offer his body, mind and soul to me. So I'm much more making sure that he's sleeping well. I'm how I can process emotional problems, come up for more. I mean not like severe emotional problems. I'm not a therapist, but I'm offering support. Right, I'm offering support, and I'm making sure that my property takes care of itself my property right.
Speaker 1:That is the way I am thinking and those are the ways it's manifested so far. Now, so much depends on what happens in person. What I've noticed, the problem with digital spaces and I think I'm going to have an episode on digital kink coming up but the problem with digital spaces is that it becomes so easy for the wheels to spin. It is a frictionless space because there aren't actual bodies, there aren't actual logistics. The room isn't too hot, the room isn't too cold, the body smells right, right. Everything's perfect in the frictionless space of online, and that allows you to go further, faster, because you're just talking. Once you meet, there is automatically, literally by the laws of physics, friction the movement of the bodies, but also the movement of who you are when you occupy the same space. So a lot can change based on the friction of a real life encounter, and I'm looking forward to seeing how my mastery manifests in the real world. So, for right now, what it looks like for me to be a master is there's a deep, intuitive sense of ownership provisional ownership, because we haven't met right, we're not fully in the realm of fantasy, we keep boots on the ground, but there's a sense that that thing is mine. That is mine, much greater than I would have a claim on a boy. So there's the sense of ownership and there's the sense of being able to do more to him quicker because he is mine. And then there's the protocol which binds us both and reminds us both who we are. That's what being a master looks like for me right now. It's driven by the same energy which is my loving dominance, which was the gift I got from the boy who changed my life, and it's manifesting in a new form thanks to the slave who changed my life, the slave who theoretically changed my life Again.
Speaker 1:If this doesn't work out and that is entirely possible I don't think I'm going to be hunting for slaves. I don't think it's naturally who I am. I think it's a resonant response that there was something in him that awoke something in me, that awoke something in him that reverberates across each other, and it is good to know that there may be other men in the world where I have that same resonant response, as there will be other men in the world he might have that with. He might, if we don't end up working out, he might find a master or he may decide never to return to slave.
Speaker 1:The beautiful thing about a kink journey and kink identities is they're not always, they're almost never permanent and they shouldn't be boxes that bind you. They should be roles that enable you to be more, be more fully you. So it's not like he's going to be leaving thinking well, I'm a slave, that's what I am. Now I have to find a master. He has a lot of parts to himself dog, boy, slave and he may not express all of them with all people. So I do find that in others, and certainly for myself, part of kink identity manifests in the connection I have with an individual person.
Speaker 1:I have a couple of mentees who are son and I am dad, but they're son. They're son. They are not boy, they are son. I have a couple of boys and they are boys, and I have one provisional slave. I'm learning a lot about myself. I'm learning about my dominance. I'm learning about my capabilities. I'm learning about how far I want to go. I am being reminded of things like how pain in the assy protocol can be. So there's a beautiful value in this journey for me and, I think, for him as well, no matter how it ends.
Speaker 1:The takeaways, I think are be attentive to what is called out in you by a person. It may be a new kink identity that you didn't realize you had. Be mindful that exploring these things in online spaces is exploring them in a frictionless space that may feel very different in reality. Be grateful for the learning you get about yourself and others through these interactions, even if they don't work out in person. And hopefully, dear listeners, by perhaps the December episode or perhaps the November interlude, I'll have more lessons for you of what it means, for me at least, to be a master. Ask Edge is a segment where I answer questions from all of you about anything. It doesn't have to be about kink, it can be about my favorite ice cream or what I like to do for fun, and you may send your questions either through email at askatfullcalshow or, even better, leave them in a voicemail at speakpipecom, and those links are always available in the show notes. And we have two questions for this episode. The first one comes from Angel.
Speaker 2:Hey Edge. Firstly I want to say I love the show. I'm particularly excited to hear someone talking about gray sexuality in a leather context. My name's Angel, my pronouns are they them. My question for you is what changes have you observed with increasing intermingling of trans and gender queer folks in the greater leather community? What are you excited to see and what would you encourage the new generation to consider? Thanks so much.
Speaker 1:Wow, angel, what a great question. So what are some of the changes I'm seeing? I think one of them for sure is that the community as a whole is having to reckon with its misogyny and its transphobia and then connect it and intermingle with all that its racial past, and that's hard and it's hard to watch and it's hard work to do, but I think it's important work. As far as the ones I'm excited to see, I have noticed an extreme diversification in acceptable leather aesthetic which I love.
Speaker 1:You see hot pink leather hot pink rubber. You see traditional muscly cis gay leathermen wearing leather ball gowns. It is nothing to see a big muscle guy in a corset. These things would have been really unacceptable at some point and I don't want to say they're completely acceptable at this point. But the people who are doing this are some of the leaders right and they are making space for everyone. They're making space for all the transgender and gender queer people who want to come into the community as well, and it's exciting to see that change in the aesthetic. Is that my aesthetic? No, no, I'm going to stick with Toma Finland because that's my thing. But I celebrate the diversity and I think Mr Rikilio is a great example of this. I went there. I got a beautiful traditional gray and black leather uniform shirt. Someone else is going to go there and buy that lime green uniform shirt and rock it, and that, I think, is because we have all these more gender diverse people coming in, bringing in different sorts of culturally inherited aesthetic expectations In terms of what I would encourage the new generation to consider.
Speaker 1:Okay, there's a lot of cancel culture right now and that makes a lot of sense because the newer generation has almost no tools for political change except cancel culture, and it is an extremely effective tool and really the only one available to them, but it is a very, very blunt instrument. It is a blunt instrument so as the new generation moves into the community and matures, eventually they are going to be the presidents of these groups that are putting on the events, they are going to be the bar managers, they are going to be the title holders. And what I would encourage that generation to consider is, once they have the actual reigns of power political power that they Be thoughtful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What I mean by that is there's probably a lot in what we think of as the traditional leather community. They will want to change to make a space that feels safer for them and others like them. But we've also done. There's some really nice stuff. There's some really beautiful, spiritual, deep, meaningful stuff in the leather community that we have crafted literally by our blood, sweat and tears sometimes, if you think about what happens in scenes. I would hope that once that new generation is in power, first of all, you don't need cancel culture anymore, because you would be the one being canceled. You finally have the reins of actual political power.
Speaker 1:I would say don't dismiss everything, because that's the habit, that's what cancel. Culture is dismiss everything, cancel everything. Don't dismiss everything, but thoughtfully think about what elements, what traditions, what about the existing community? What configurations of family do you want to preserve and carry forward? That's what I would say that you will come into power. That's just a function of aging. And once you're in power, think about what to keep. Don't just throw it all away, because some of what the existing community has crafted is utterly, utterly beautiful. Thank you again for such a wonderful, thoughtful question. Our second question comes from Gabe.
Speaker 2:Hi there.
Speaker 1:I had a question that I thought might be worth your time. I think I'd currently identify as leather curious Insert. I would use the term leather adjacent. That's where you start out. Gabe continues.
Speaker 1:I don't currently own any leather, but I find a man in leather incredibly sexy and I have a lot of interest in kink that I don't have as much opportunity to explore as I'd like.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious about getting involved in my local leather community. The problem is, I think many leather men are looking for other men in leather and I haven't figured out yet how to wear it in a way that feels true to myself. I know part of my attraction to leather men is that I perceive the leather as very dominant, while I identify more on the submissive side. So I have trouble figuring out how I would wear leather in a way that adds to my submissiveness, that I'm feeling Boy rather than petterslave, rather than make me feel like I'm projecting a dominant vibe that I don't want to project or take me out of a submissive headspace. Any thoughts? And the truth is I send them an email response so that I don't even remember what I wrote. So I'm answering this off the cuff and I'm sorry, gabe, if you're getting to completely different answers. The beautiful thing about leather is that submissiveness is already built in. The community's been operating so that everyone who likes to wear leather gets to wear it and gets to be who they want to be.
Speaker 1:I say you can start very simply. The classic, old-school, traditional boy uniform is a pair of combat boots, tightly Y501s, plain white tee, plain black belt, keys, hankies on the right. It's a way, with minimal financial investment, to signal an allegiance to some of the history of this community, but also to signal quite clearly that you are interested in leather, that you want to participate in this community and that you're a boy Beyond that.
Speaker 1:I want to be careful because I think anyone should wear any leather they want. However, some items of leather might have more of a boy energy to them. So leather shorts, for example, especially if they're short shorts, might feel more boyish than, say, a full leather uniform. Full harness, which means both chest leading down to a ring at your cock and up your strap. That is traditionally more boyish than just a half harness just around the pecs, which would be seen as somehow more dominant. The other thing I like is that you talked about your local leather community, which means there is a local leather community. They are probably going to be very welcoming, whether you're in leather or not.
Speaker 1:So, beyond thinking about the specific aesthetics that are already built into the community that sort of signal, more submission than dominance Take advantage of connecting to the local community as people, not as leather people, but just as people, asking them questions, seeing how they dress, connecting with other boys in the community. They're not going to expect you to be in leather if you're just, first of all. No one's expecting to be in leather when you're just starting out, like we all start somewhere. So if this is a good community, if this is a healthy community, they will have pathways for you to enter into it through just talking to people or a social event or something not at the bar or something not at 10pm at the bar. Those are opportunities to talk to people who are local and to find out more about how your local community works and then to really ask these questions in a very local context.
Speaker 1:I will tell you From where I'm sitting. Keys and hankies trump everything, right. So if I see a man In cover language jacket, full leather uniform, day iners, dressed to the nines, looking stunning, if his keys are on the right, that man is going to be dealing at my boots because he's a boy. I strongly feel like keys and hankies trump everything, no matter how the leather seems to be transmitting. So if it helps, if you ever want to meet me or just talk to me, you can be wearing as much leather as you want and find out more about it. Just make sure everything's on the right with keys and hankies.
Speaker 1:That and that ends our questions for ask edge this week. Really so grateful for those. This segment doesn't exist without you, so I want to encourage you to submit your questions at ask at full cow dot show or speak pipe dot com. Slash leather edge. Thanks everyone, and I'm thrilled to have back to full cow Phil. Phil, welcome to full cow. Thank you for having me back, absolutely. Could you start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community?
Speaker 3:So my pronouns are he and him. I have not identified myself as a slave, but over this year I've been moving into more of a master role. So after the moment I am, let's say I'm transitioning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's sort of exactly why you're here on the podcast, last time on the probably the submission episode, and at that time you were slave Phil. So can you give us a quick sense of how you've been evolving lately and what the journey has been like for you?
Speaker 3:So I think one of the big things is when I was actually recording with you last time, I was actually with two masters and I ended up being ghosted by them.
Speaker 3:So I still, to this day, have no idea what went wrong.
Speaker 3:I literally there's nothing in my mind to understand what happened or why, and so I've had a bit of a grief process with that, and that's really impacted my health as well, and at a certain point my mind started to go. Well, you know, just as tranny tranny started, you did want to start training slaves and take the master role yourself, and then there was a couple of things that happened in tranny tranny that kind of got in the way just just minor things, just a global pandemic, and so I never really got to it, and so one of the things that kind of came up this year was this is where you need to focus on a bit more. Unfortunately, my health has been so bad this year I haven't been able to do as much as I would like, but as the years gone on and my house got better, I've been able to do more and I've had some very beautiful men and slaves coming to serve me and opening up and sharing their heart with me, and it's been quite an incredible experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think at this point people are really sad that I don't also do a video version of this, because people, he has a beautiful slave restrained and blindfolded right next to him, essentially during this interview. So as far back as 2020, this was something you had already seen as part of your evolution. But I mean, how did you come to realize that, if you had been identifying as slave at, what were the factors that made you think like, well, maybe there's more to me than just that.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things is that it's getting increasingly hard for me to find masters to serve. When I started Master Slave Lifestyle in 2017, I always knew that was going to be an issue that was going to come out, that perhaps is going to intimidate people, and that has, I think, started to happen. I'll often send messages to people and just getting their response back. Or when I do get a response from someone, they've often got the emotional maturity of the blueberry scone. I was in hospital this year and, for instance, I had someone threaten to destroy my reputation on the Berlin scene because I didn't take the time to reply to one of their messages and being in hospital is not an excuse and I've just been getting increasingly tired of having to deal with that sort of insecure, immature, damage psyche. I just don't have the patience for it, and that's been slowly growing over the last few years.
Speaker 3:But I think the other very important thing was at the start of 2020, I went to visit a master who owns a fortress in South Europe and the location he likes to keep mysterious, and I was really taken with his vision, what he was doing, and that somehow lit a spark in me that, okay, I need to make some bigger decisions in my life. For instance, I need to buy property, and it was like, well, how do I emotionally make this work? And part of it was well, I want to create a place where slaves can really be slaves, where slaves can really feel what it's like, without some of the issues that I've had, such as the immaturity or people suddenly deciding they don't want to do it or they suddenly struggle with the fantasy versus the reality. Instead, let's actually do it. And then, what made it happen more this year as well was I started to experiment with magic mushrooms. I did a guided hero dosage, and this was one of the messages that came really out was it's time to start your own master slave family.
Speaker 1:Well, when the drugs tell you to do it. I loved your description of that sort of essentially running out of people. I that was my evolutionary path right like there came a point where I would be submitting in scenes and thinking I can do this so much better, like they really don't know what they're doing. And I think it's very common Path for people to start out on the bottom and simply run out of men who can handle them and then move, make that transition. And it was also occurring to me that in that you know, you're still got this sort of service orientation that these poor slaves out there are finding this for masters and I could be so much better this vision of a household, I'm assuming, is what you're thinking of like this sort of retreat Can you elaborate on what that looks like for you because I think people are already turned on by the fact that you're thinking about it.
Speaker 3:So I've got quite a, let's say, a long term plan, which is that I'd like to find, you know, a piece of land somewhere and basically have a place where you know we can be master slaves there.
Speaker 3:The slaves can be naked outside, because I quite like to humanization, that there's the idea that you know I can take slaves on a pony ride or do a sheep dog training, all of these sorts of things.
Speaker 3:But the other part of this is to have a retreat where I can invite other people so you can imagine having kind of weekends where we do, for instance, shadow work based on some of the stuff in my recent book, where we can do healing and we could do that for the master slave community ownership ceremony is but also helping the gay community in general. So not just fetish now, but doing other things as well. And so I've ended up having this very strong vision and I'm very slowly trying to go from one step to another, to another, and so this is probably a five, ten year plan that I have. It's not going to happen next year, though you never know. I've kind of been for me and but this is, this is a sort of vision that I have. You know, let's say, a family that helps each other but also helps and serves the community to become a better place.
Speaker 1:Since you mentioned the book, let's maybe move on to that. It is titled Light and Shadow the psychology of master slave relationships. Can you start by giving us kind of a quick synopsis?
Speaker 3:So what I was trying to do was how do you identify good and bad in master slave relationships, or good and bad in power dynamics? Because the issue we have is that the relationships are so different and it's very easy to judge one to another of being bad, whereas actually it's just these people like different things, but there's clearly bad relationships and bad people, and so what I was trying to do was how can we differentiate about that? And this is how the book came about how can you figure out what's good and bad? Where do you have your own pulls to the shadow or darkness? How you can be aware of other people's pools, and then how can you improve? And so there's also a north star in there, what we should all aim for.
Speaker 1:And it's centered around these Jungian archetypes. Can you give us an example of one of the archetypes and how you use that to talk about good, bad and master and slave?
Speaker 3:Yes. So when we use the word archetypes here, there's this idea that there's a certain concepts that are so deep within us that they're common across most of the world in our culture. So if I talk about King, magician, lover or warrior, we all end up having visual pictures. It's because they're sort of terms that really seem to go deep into who we are as people and our cultures, and this is true whether you're in the Far East or whether you're in the US, and then for each of these we can break it down a bit more. So if I use the King, the King is actually this part of us that is around purpose, if we're really living our purpose, and it has certain attributes, such as affirming people, helping people to become the best that they can be.
Speaker 3:But then there's also shadow states. So the King as the tyrant, this is someone that's so scared of losing their power that they try and destroy everyone around them. They try and make everyone seem as small as possible. Or we've got King as the weak link, and this is someone that's so scared that they don't really want to step in into their power or do anything, and so you can see here how this can then apply to the role of the master. Is a master a strong king that helps enable people, that affirms them as slaves, that gives them the right to be who they are and allow them to feel great in doing it? Or is the master someone that takes all their own insecurities out on the slave to make them feel small, to belittle them, sometimes to traumatize them? Or the master that says they want a slave but then doesn't actually do anything about it and won't step up from the slaves there?
Speaker 1:But what I love is that you take each of these archetypes and they're not just about the master and the light version and the shadow version that even with something like King you talk about the slaves in her King and that's sort of purpose driven, like how am I going to find a master, what are the actions I'm going to take and what are the strengths I bring. And I also love I'm glad you brought up King, because you talked about the primary emotion of the King being joy, and I do think the reason we do any of this is it's joy.
Speaker 3:Making this is supposed to create joy right, exactly, it's strange the slave that I've got by me at the moment. I was talking about that with it earlier today. It's like it's okay to feel joy here, it's okay to smile, because it's one of these things. Sometimes, I think, because we're trying to feel such a deep need, it's hard to feel that joy or to know that there should be fun there as well. But once we're actually fulfilling it, anything we be doing, of course it's going to be challenges and bits we don't enjoy, but for the most part we should be living that life of joy or feeling joy when we're serving or mastering someone.
Speaker 1:I am huge on joy. I enjoyed the book because each of these archetypes there's a good explanation of how it matches the master and light and shadow versions, and then the same thing for the slave, and I thought particularly the work with the slave. Like a lot of these, you wouldn't always think of slave as a warrior, you wouldn't always think of slave as a lover, and so using this sort of Jungian approach really helps people be thoughtful about where they are in their journeys in this. Can you talk about some of the resources you've built around the book to help people in that self-examination, in that inner growth?
Speaker 3:So the book itself has a number of actions in, let's say, for each of the sections. So if you realize, you do have a pull to the dark side, and we all have them. So if you're thinking, listening to this, that you don't, that's probably your ego speaking and you do. And so it's like, okay, if I'm struggling in a certain area, I have a pull. This is how I can count it, or I can move to a more healthy place. But even if you're not in the shadow, it might be, you're not good at something.
Speaker 3:So if we go back to the king and let's say, slaves having a sense of purpose that's often not the case for a lot of slaves it's like my purpose will come in serving someone.
Speaker 3:But, as I say in the book, it can be very useful to find your own purpose outside of that as well, to be a more well rounded person, and that way you can serve better. And so then there's actions on how can you do that a bit more. Other things is that there is a quiz that you can test yourself on MassaSlaveLifestyle. So if you go to MassaSlaveLifestylecom slash quiz, you can actually do the test and see what comes out. The way the test is done is that it shows you where you're good, but it also shows your potential pulls to the shadow as well, and so it's things that you can suddenly be aware of, because what's important is often we're not aware of what's in our shadow. That's why we call it that it's sort of hidden. I also do coaching, so you can also approach me as a coach as well, and there's also a course that I do. A module three of that goes a bit deeper into the light and shadow of what's good and bad about masters and slaves.
Speaker 1:So if people want to check out the book, where should they go and where can they find it?
Speaker 3:So if you go to MassaSlaveLifestylecom slash book, you'll see the link there. It's $11.99. If you're one of the first two people to buy the book from the podcast, I'm also happy to offer free coaching session.
Speaker 1:How are they going to know?
Speaker 3:If you drop me an email at contact at MassaSlaveLifestylecom and say that you purchased the book, the first two people get in the coaching.
Speaker 1:Mention Full Cow, obviously, and that's a really sweet deal. I've actually known some people who've taken advantage of your coaching and have been really quite satisfied with it. What sort of things do you do in your coaching?
Speaker 3:So it's a variety of different things.
Speaker 3:So one is helping people to understand themselves. One of the big things that people can struggle with is what sort of master or slave do I want? And so we kind of help figure that out. By going deep into who are you as a person, we also bring in some of the young and warrior side, about really embracing the inner beast, the part of ourselves that we can be a bit scared of, and so I help people to bring that out and find safe, consensual ways that they can bring some of their fantasies true With other people. It's more about exploring their let's say, their sexuality of being a slave or a master, and so sometimes we'll actually use the book as a sort of basis and we'll go through each of the archetypes in turn to really get the person to understand who they are and what it is that they want to get out. And at the time it's just very practical advice and tips on how to find a slave or master or, if you're a master, different ways you can torment or bring a slave into deeper submission.
Speaker 1:And I'm assuming, obviously, you're not a therapist, so this isn't therapy. But there may be issues that come up that you might direct them towards therapy. But this is coaching. This is how are we going to get you what you want in your life, correct?
Speaker 3:Yes, it's very action or very action orientated. So with therapy we sort of going into the past, looking at trauma at the pace that you can. Therapy tends to go just below the pace that you're ready to go. So with coaching it's more about your action and goal. What is it you want to do? And with my coaching it's what's the most efficient way that I can get you there.
Speaker 1:And what I love about coaching is, first of all, it's easy. Well, it's not easy, but people can find therapists. But to find people who they feel comfortable talking about this stuff specifically and people who have knowledge and insight and can give them actions to take specifically, that can be really challenging. And that is something you talked about in a part of the book the sort of lack of mentorship in the community. Can you speak a little bit to where you see we are now and where we might go in terms of mentoring new people?
Speaker 3:So it's strange you ask this because I've been doing a lot of thinking about this recently. There's kind of two different things going on in the community. There can be this incredible ability to help educate and bring people forward. So, for instance, going to claw, I feel like I'm surrounded with people like that, but also, at the same time, I think the scene can be incredibly transactional, crawl and not really caring about people.
Speaker 3:At the same point, let's say, for interfetish, we have this almost adoration for the old guard, for this sense of a group of people where you had elders that looked after you, that looked out for you. Now, I don't think the old guard was ever quite like that. We sort of romanticized it a bit. I mean, there is truth there as well. But what's really important about that is that we all have this wanting to get a connection to an older person, someone that can help us through some of the struggles we have. And I know some people have been lucky enough to find that. But, for instance, I never found that and I made the mistakes on my own and I had to fix myself on my own.
Speaker 3:And I feel as a community, we need to look at creating, let's say, healed, amazing leaders that can help bring us to this next healed place where we can actually help people to have a less traumatic time that we might have had. We can help people when they are actually struggling, and then people that can also help in defending our rights, be it kind of gay rights, be it kind of fetish rights or, if it's in a non-western country, actually trying to create some of the rights that we already have and we might start to take the granted, and so I think there's all of this stuff that can happen within a good community and that is where I think that a lot of work needs to go now and kind of really helping that there are people that are stepping up already, but how can we help them and how can we create more of those people so we have this huge collaboration in creating a healed, better space for the next generation.
Speaker 1:And I think there's a specific challenge in dominant peoples of all flavors getting mentored, because there's the assumption that oh, you're the master, you're supposed to know everything, and because of the intersections you talk about in the book between something like master and ego, it's like really hard if you wanna be a master to find someone to mentor you as a master, and so I think that's a particular challenge. Do you offer resources on your website for peer support groups for masters or dominant peoples?
Speaker 3:So there is the Master Slave Support Group. So with this we have people from Berlin, america I don't think we've got someone from the UK now, but we used to and it's a mixture of masters, slaves, some people who are in relationships, some people who are single, some people who have a lot of expertise and some people with less, and so someone can raise a problem or talk about an issue and we can really kind of debate it. So, for instance, in the last meeting we were talking about what happens if a master goes over someone's boundaries. Can the slave defend themselves? And it's a very nuanced, subtle topic when you really go into it, and we really started to explore that, and so that is one of the resources I would recommend for people. There are also other groups that help with this, so Mastnet is a big one as well, so you can also check out for that.
Speaker 1:And it's not just about knowledge gathering, like the discussion you just talked about. It's about peer support. So if you're a master and you're having problems with your slave, who the hell do you go talk to? Who understands, right? So, creating these spaces where you're having discussions about these really tricky issues, you're also creating peer bonds that can sustain you in your own journey as master as well as your journey on slave.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 3:I think what's really interesting is we don't see a lot of these relationships and even if you've done them a few times, there's a lot that you still don't know, and I often think it's better to embrace.
Speaker 3:I don't know what's gonna happen next, but I have the support network and I have the curiosity and the emotional intelligence to try and figure out how to move through this next bit, rather than pretending you know everything, whereas there's almost very little that you can figure out or know until you've gone through, let's say, a 10 year master slave, 24 seven relationship. Otherwise, a lot of it's gonna be very normal and new and you're just trying to figure it out. Communities of people that have done some of that can really help you. They can guide you and also, because relationships are so different it's not that you must do it this way or that way they can give you different perspectives that allow you to choose the best path for you and, strange enough, that means you stay in control. Talking to people, really listening, doesn't mean you're losing control, but it's allowing you to make better decisions and to take better steps forward.
Speaker 1:I think, in terms of the book, that is the magician archetype who's the problem solver, information seeker yeah right, so the book really helps you think about, as you encounter situations, sort of what of your inner resources? What inner archetype might be needed in a situation like oh, I've got to do this ritual, it's happened to my magician because I need information, I need problem solving. It's just another way. I think the book is a really useful thought tool for navigating these really complex issues.
Speaker 3:Exactly, you're taking something which is very ethereal and conceptual power exchange and then breaking it down into some very atomic, discrete, practical ways of understanding it, with very practical steps as well. So we're kind of moving from this ethereal thing to something which you can really get your teeth into.
Speaker 1:I will also note from the book that you are a huge, gigantic nerd. All the examples are like. It's like the Mandalorian, it's like the Last of Us, it's like Dune. Do you want to talk about your interest in sci-fi fantasy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but my only sadness with this was I couldn't get a Star Trek reference, as I actually really loved that. It was very hard to attach into the archetypes as much Are you telling me Jean-Luc Picard is not a king.
Speaker 1:Come on, now, he's the king.
Speaker 3:Well, actually what's strange is I could change this a bit now. When I was writing the book, picard season three was just being broadcast and of course Picard and Micah have a huge row in a couple of the episodes, and that really speaks to the archetype of the warrior, and I think I talk about this with Prince and Tide or something, and I could have used now Picard season three for it, but it hadn't come out, so at the time I was writing that section.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think you know I know a ridiculous number of very nerdy, very kinky people, so those sets of cultural references can really be accessible to them. I am like, if you were to ask me, part of this is supported by Instagram demographics Like what's my audience? 25 to 34 young D&D playing gamers. So all of these references are so current as well and I think people will fight it very accessible. But yeah, you're a nerd, master, nerd to you.
Speaker 3:You can probably see behind me, I've got my model Starship Enterprise.
Speaker 1:I do yes yes, and which enterprise is that, since people can't see it 1701, slash D, the best one. God is the Enterprise D, the Enterprise D. So if you would like to see the Enterprise D, you may try to serve Master Phil in Berlin, but you'll only be able to see it until the blindfold goes on.
Speaker 3:And I keep your movements quite fixed, so you, might have it.
Speaker 1:It has been a delight having you back here. I really enjoyed the book. It's been useful in my own journey. I do recommend it to people and as well as you've created, I think, a really rich set of a variety of resources for people who are interested in exploring these aspects of themselves, and I hope you will continue that until you build your master slave Shangri-La.
Speaker 3:I will do and thank you. Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and have a beautiful day there in Berlin with your slave.
Speaker 3:I will do.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 3:Bye, bye.
Speaker 1:And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Please consider subscribing, or you can send feedback to edge at fullcowshow, as always. May your leather journey be blessed. Tch tch Bye.