IML

What if the secret to IML isn’t the perfect body or the flashiest gear, but ruthless intention and a calm breath before every answer? International Mr. Leather 2025, René Hébert, joins us for a rare, no-spin walkthrough of what it really takes to prepare, compete, and live the title year without losing yourself. From his first sash as Western Canada Leatherboy to Mr. Palm Springs Leather and the big stage in Chicago, René charts the skills that actually move the needle: community ties, stage comfort built in the Imperial Court, and a plan for every outcome.

We dig into the parts most folks only whisper about. Gear strategy starts with identity, not shopping lists; your bio must be defensible; and eight-minute interviews reward succinct, memorable answers over monologues. René explains how researching judges sharpens your read of vague questions, why the physique segment is more about vulnerability than abs, and how to design a 90-second speech with a clean arc and a hard-hitting closer. He also opens the back door on the title year: a dedicated inbox to tame hundreds of DMs, the real costs hidden in meals and rideshares, and the boundary work it takes to keep the sash from swallowing your life.

There’s more. We talk rule changes and the one-shot-only debate, forging a title year that reflects your values instead of copying past winners, and why immigration, trans rights, and current controversies will be on the table when judges meet you. René shares the shock of a forced move to Montreal, the strain of long-distance love, and the small daily practices that make resilience real. We close with practical advice for contestants and a listener Ask Edge on balancing kink with everyday life and building real friendships.

If you care about Leather, Kink, IML prep, interview strategy, speechwriting, boot black culture, or sustainable leadership, this conversation is your blueprint. Subscribe, share with your title class, and leave a review telling us the one tip you’ll use first.

For more great educational resources from René, check out his social media:

• TikTok @BuckHarder
• YouTube: @TheFriendlyBootblack
• IG: @rene_jacque_strappe
• Fb: IML2025

Transcript

Meet Rene Ebert, IML 2025

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Let's talk about IML. This podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. Before proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult. Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about Leather, Kink, and PDSM. My name is Edge, my pronouns are he, him, and I'm your host. And in this episode, I am extremely honored to have as my guest International Mr. Leather 2025 Rene Ebert. And we will be talking about how he prepared for IML and what it's like to live as IML. So, in part, this is, I think, an episode for people who may be competing this year or who may be considering competing for a local title in terms of thinking about what it takes to compete and how to really bring your best game to that competition. But this is also an insight into what it's like to live this sort of mythic figure that we as a community have deigned through this competition. I also have an Ask Edge question, so this should be a pretty good episode altogether. And I'm really, really excited for it, and I can't wait to share it with you. So let's get started. I am beyond thrilled to have with me Renee Ebert, uh who is International Mr. Leather 2025. Renee, welcome to Full Cow.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Hi, thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Can you start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

My pronouns are he, him, his. I identify as a versatile switch um wannabe slut, but I don't play enough to actually be one.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

That means everyone has a chance. If you're listening, you have a chance to. So how often do you get Herbert instead of Aber?

SPEAKER_05 2:24

Um if I'm in the US and they're typing my name out almost every time. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

So everyone, it is a bear, correct?

SPEAKER_05 2:34

Yes. Clevy Atlanta. If you need to lean into the English pronunciation, he bear is or a bear are both perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

All right. We don't want to misname you. We don't like that. So um let's start at something like the beginning. What was the first title you ran for, and why the hell did you decide to run for a title?

SPEAKER_05 2:59

So the first title I ever ran for was Western Canada Leatherboy back in 2020. Um and so I ran for Western Canada Leatherboy 2011 in November of 2010. I decided to run because um I didn't know any better, and people that I thought were cool said, oh, you should do it. It's like, oh no, you just don't really have any contestants. I get it. Um I'd been in the community for maybe a few years at that point. I had no business running for a leather title at that point. Um I had no idea what I was getting into. But uh I'm glad I did because it connected me into a world with a whole lot of people that I I still consider friends now, um, a lot of mentors and all that kind of stuff. It was a wonderful experience, but looking back, it's like, why did I agree to do that then? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Aaron Powell I love that that's the beginning of your story because I think it's an important message for people that running for a contest, even if you feel like you're not going to win, is a wonderful experience. It really plunges you into the community in so many ways.

SPEAKER_05 4:07

Oh, absolutely. Um the there are good and bad aspects to the entirety of the title system. Um but I will say um if you can connect with the title system at large and the people involved, um, you do have the opportunity to connect with some really amazing people and get some really cool opportunities within that world.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

So after Western Canadian Leatherboy, um what other contests have you run in? What other titles or did you get the title? What titles have you held?

SPEAKER_05 4:42

Um so I did win Western Canada Leatherboy that that year. Um thinking back on it again, I don't know how, but um, and actually I will say, so the head judge, um if you're okay with a really, really quick aside, um, the head judge for that contest was that year's international community boot black. And this was uh not just a female boot black, but was the first femme female boot black to hold that title. So um after the contest, she asked the the bar owners, hey, do you mind if I boot black at the bar and not the contest is done? It's it helps me offset my travel, my travel costs. Absolutely no problem. So I am watching, I am like, I had this new title. I'm dear in the headlights, not knowing what the hell is in store for me. Watching this like little five foot nothing woman red hair down to her ass, corseted, boot blacking for like these old school gay men, and a lot of them going, I want to play with you now, and it's messing with me. At which point I went, That is magic that I want to learn. So that contest got me into boot blacking.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 5:55

Um so yeah, no, uh that that's that was a really, really cool experience. Um, but then I ended up competing for international leather boy, uh, and I lost to Nitro.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Oh my again.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

You know, Alan Penrod and Nitro, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yes.

Imperial Court: Skills That Transfer

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Uh I I I came up first runner up. I gave him a run for his money. Again, I don't know how to do it. That's impressive. But but um yeah, night that contest was Nitro's to lose. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. Alan and Nitro were a hell of a team. Um and yeah, so after that, um at the time I was also heavily involved with the Imperial Court in Western Canada. So um while I was there, I also ended up uh holding the titles of King of Hearts, Mr. Gay Edmonton, Imperial Crown Prince, and Emperor of Edmonton in northern Alberta. Lord. So not leather titles, but um lots of fundraising work and more drag shows than I think is recommended by most doctors.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yeah, let's pause here for a moment. And I don't know that everyone necessarily knows about the imperial court system. Can you give us like a 30-second overview of that and and how it helped really shape your other future runs for titles, like what skills it gave you?

SPEAKER_05 7:11

Oh, absolutely. Um so the imperial court system, for those not familiar, it's the way I explain it is it is drag-based faux royalty as a vehicle to raise money for charity. So every chapter is going to be run differently. They'll have their own bylaws, their own pro uh procedures and protocols and all that. But essentially you're looking at a title system meant to emulate a uh a royalty like a monarchy system. Um and those titles will usually last for a year, and you have emperor and empress, and then a whole bunch of other titles depending on the court. Um and I started my involvement with that just because I needed an outlook, an outlet to be social. Um, so I started going to these events, I started volunteering at these events, and I am a former theater kid, and I'm like, oh, lip syncing on stage and acting like an idiot performing to like Adam Lambert or whatever. Yeah, no, that sounds fun. Uh, so it was very up my alley. Um, but in that process, I also got a lot more comfortable at just talking to people, and putting myself out there, at not feeling ashamed at maybe being a little bit more silly when I'm when I have a spotlight on me because it helps raise money or it helps raise awareness or whatever. Uh so it took a lot of like the shy boy element of me that I still had in my early 20s and just kind of like, no, we're we're gonna figure out how to cope with that and navigate that.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

So you've been running for titles for a while. So after all of your titles in the court, what was the next leather title you went for?

SPEAKER_05 8:46

Um so well, the next leather title I had was kind of bestowed upon me because I was boot blacking at the barracks for about four years, and they named me um Mr. Barracks Boot Black, because like there was no other boot blacks. So they were like, yeah, sure. Okay. Uh and they were actually going to send me to compete for international Mr. Boot Black the year it got canceled.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, that was, I remember a hard year for you.

SPEAKER_05 9:10

Yeah, I was not happy about that. I was very, very disappointed. Um, but I continued my work uh in my local community and and all of that. So that was that was kind of the next thing. Um and then after that, I remember I'd graduated from from college. I had my degree. I was like, okay, well, now I have time that I can focus on community work again. I can focus on being more heavily involved because I'm not focusing on my studies. Um and so I ended up um um kind of studying my sights on Mr. Palm Springs leather. And at the time I was also um kind of like the in-house leather um caretaker, I guess, for off-ramp leather at uh in Palm Springs. I was there once a week, just kind of cleaning and conditioning consignment stuff that came in. And so I asked Paul, the owner, I said, Hey, um, I kind of want to run for Mr. Palm Springs, would you sponsor me? He said, Yes, not a problem. Uh so he sponsored me as Mr. Off-Ramp Leather. Uh, and then I ended up competing for Mr. Palm Springs. And evidently I I did well because I left that weekend with the sash.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

And all this time, you're also, I mean, you've mentioned in passing the kind of boot blacking work you've done for the community, but um, you are you've also done a lot of work on social media, sort of putting out education. That's all going on at the same time, correct?

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Right. Um, starting in in I think April of 2022, uh, I started um a tick, it was mostly on TikTok first. I started a TikTok uh around boot black education and leather care and some leather culture and history stuff, but most of that came later. Um uh and I didn't intend to start a real social media platform or presence. I was just doom scrolling on TikTok and I saw like a lot of DIY stuff, and I'm like, oh, I could just like do a pair of boots and post the video and see what happens. And next thing I know, I'm starting to get questions of like, well, why don't you just use baby wipes or why don't you just do this? I'm like, so I start answering these questions. That's like, oh, maybe maybe this is a platform that I should actually start using. Um and I've since started a YouTube channel called the friendly uh the friendly boot block. Oh, wow. And I've started uploading on there as well.

Mr. Palm Springs To IML Prep

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, we'll put all your um social media links in the show notes so people can go find you and partake of your education. So you win Mr. Palm Springs Leather, and now you're going to IML. How many months did you have to prepare?

SPEAKER_05 11:48

Uh six. Um so the Mr. Palm Springs Leather is um during Palm Springs Leather Pride, which is the last weekend of October. Um so I've got I mean technically IML is right at the end of May, so arguably seven-ish months. Um which any less than that, and I I don't think there's enough prep time.

Outfits, Intent, And Image Craft

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Let's talk about what it takes to prepare for IML. Because I think, you know, I'm hoping people who are in this year's class will be able to listen to this and get some insights. Let's start with outfits. How many outfits did you plan on having for IML?

SPEAKER_05 12:30

Are we talking the judged components or like for the entire week?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I mean for the entire weekend. Like how many looks L E W K S did you have? Uh let's see.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

I had um physique and stage presence for areas. Uh altogether, probably about 10, not including just casual attire through the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Um of those looks, did you already have all the gear for the looks? Did you borrow gear? Did you buy gear? Like how much work did you put into crafting that image for the weekend?

SPEAKER_05 13:16

So I I will say um I already had a good portion of it because one of the big things that I really emphasize when I talk to people about this is whatever you wear, whatever you showcase, it has to be intentional. Um, just slapping on a harness last minute just because, oh yeah, it kind of looks good and it was there. I I don't think that really cuts it. I think that you really need to be intentional with what you wear. So a lot of what I wore, um, I already owned. It's stuff that I was comfortable in, stuff that I knew how it fit, I knew how I moved in. Um that said, uh, I know I ended up getting a pair of jeans uh modified with the leather paneling on the sides and in the leather seat. Um I had I had two pairs of boots that were gifted to me that I wore that weekend. Nice. Um, and I've got a fun story about one of them, actually, uh that I was gifted three, two, three weeks before IML. Um, I had my formals were fully custom because when I won Mr. Palm Springs, one of the things that was in my prize package was actually a full uh set of formals.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Oh, that's handy.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Uh from Rough Trade. That's your handy. They're big, so yeah, they're big supporters of the community. And I remember going, okay, well, I want this is what I might wear for speech. If I make it to top 20, this is what I'm gonna wear. So I really wanted to curate something that that showcased who I was on some level. So I made something that kind of evoked our CMP mounty uniform a little bit, um, just kind of in vibe, but not like an actual recreation of it. Um, and uh Adrian at Rough Trade is very into uniforms. And so when I started talking about my idea, he like his grin just started getting bigger and bigger. I'm like, I'm on the right track. Okay. Um but yeah, most of it I would say I had going in already.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

So not a significant financial investment pre-IML for you in terms of gear?

SPEAKER_05 15:13

Um not in the moment. Um that said, I mean, I've been I've been involved in the leather community for I've been a boot black for 15, 16 years. I've been involved in in the leather community since I was saying 21. Um and I'm 39 now. So I mean, over time, I've I've accumulated gear. I've accumulated um harnesses and boots and shirts and stuff that that I already had a selection. So if someone is if if I was a lot newer in the community, if I had been involved for less than 10 years, yeah, that that would be a big financial investment because I I wouldn't have the the the amount of gear to to choose from. So I mean I've I've accumulated quite a few years.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I'm someone in this year's class for IML. I'm fairly new. Uh I just won my contest today. So I've got like too much to prepare. What's your advice if people don't have you know decades of gear? I mean, what the hell are you gonna do? What what would you recommend for people who don't have that depth of gear that's lived in?

SPEAKER_05 16:20

Right. So I will say, okay, I'm gonna start with from from best case scenario. Best case scenario, okay, you just won a title. That means that you have a sponsor that will support you. You have a network that will support you. Lean into it. Um, even even if you don't, because I'm sure you've seen we we occasionally have titles where it's like, okay, they won the title, and then there's like the the owner of the title just kind of like ignores them until IML, right? That that does happen, which is unfortunate, and I hate that. It's like, no, you have a title holder, you need to support these people. It is not just about making money for the one weekend. Um, but no, I generally speaking, if you win a title, you have a network of people to some degree. Um, assuming it's not the first year the title is being run, you will have former title holders that should be there to help you out. You um, but there's also the idea of, okay, well, maybe we can barter this because having a title means you have a certain amount of social capital. Approach your local businesses and say, hey, I'm going to be doing this. Would you be interested in me helping promote some events or promote your uh your functions or whatever in exchange for maybe discounts on some leather gear or a shirt or a whatever, right? Um the the thing that I really cannot stress enough is no one makes it through IML alone. No one does. Um and the ones that do really well are the ones that not just have a support network, but the amount of support I had going in is incredible. I I by no means did I win because I because it was me. I uh I won because I had the support helping make sure that I couldn't.

Body Pressure Vs Stage Presence

SPEAKER_02 18:20

And I imagine a lot of people go to IML with some amount of gear that's been borrowed or on loan. Yeah. Oh, probably, yeah. Speaking of gear, you know, I also I I don't even I was talking uh I think it was at Austin Kink weekend last year when I was on the uh mock judging panel and I was talking to some of the contestants, and they were talking about like uh shaping undergarments and things, and like how much pressure is there as a contestant to have this perfect body? Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

There is a perceived pressure. Um I will say it there it used to be a lot more present, I think, especially with with stuff like Pax and Personality, with stuff like if you're looking at IML footage from the 90s into the early 2000s, um, there really was this attitude of like, oh no, we're looking for the body beautiful, right? And and I don't think that that was unjustified at the time for what they were going for. The community in general has evolved and changed since then. Um and it's and I think title systems in general tend to be a little slower to adapting to the community at large, um, just because it's easy to get into a habit of like, well, this is how we've done it, so this is how we're gonna keep doing it. But um I genuinely um believe that a lot of that pressure is now self-imposed because you like one of the big parts of IML is that what used to be called pecs and personality, the the physique and stage presence portion where you're on a stage and jock strap and boots. And it's easy to look at that and go, well, obviously they're looking for the guy with the biggest pecs. They're looking for the guy with the uh no, I have a body fat percentage of like 21, 22%.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

I I don't have abs, I have ab.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

Um and it's the focus is a lot more on are you comfortable being vulnerable? Are you comfortable taking away a lot of the the guards that you would hide behind to be like, no, this is who I am, unapologetic. Um, like, yeah, I'm I'm not like the Mr. Olympia. You look at Jamal last year, who is a very sexy, beautiful man, but he's not ripped. Um, so yeah, I I I don't think that that's the case as much as it used to be. But I think the knee-jerk reaction of of, oh, I need to be this body beautiful, I think that's still there. But I don't think that is as much the reality of the concept.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

I know there's a giant group chat with all the contestants. Does that does that actually fuel that kind of pressure? I mean, is there a lot of discussion about like is it is it a supportive chat or is it like, oh my God, I feel so much pressure now, chat, or a little both.

SPEAKER_05 21:29

It's a bit of both. Um, I think which end of that spectrum you fall on kind of actually comes down to you. Um, because the support is there. But there is a lot of this, like, oh, I'm going to the gym, I'm eating right, I'm doing this stuff, and we're sharing this kind of stuff. And I mean, I yeah, I did it too, but it wasn't a I wasn't taking it as a, oh no, I need to compare myself to these people, even though it's a contest and there's a certain amount of comparison. But I I wasn't I was seeing it as a we're all in the same boat here, and we all have our way of getting to what we feel is appropriate by the time we get to the contest. Yeah, that there's definitely some that are going to look at that and go, oh no, I need to be the most XYZ out of anyone, right? Um So I think it can be a mixed bag. I mostly found it comforting and supportive to know that I was not the only one going through a lot of the same stuff before the contest. Um, but it would not be a stretch to think of someone in that chat going, oh no. Oh, wait, you're doing that? Should I be doing that too? You know, what do you mean you went for liposuction? Right?

Mastering The IML Interview

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Like I know it's just random examples, not actual example. Yes. Um so what I'm hearing so far is if you're preparing for IML, some of the things to do is really lean into your community because you have a title, and that title serves the community, but the community also supports the title. And then also to really work on just being comfortable in your skin. And that translates also to being comfortable in your gear. Does that sound right so far? Yeah. Oh, completely. So let's talk the interview. How did you prepare for the interview?

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Um, so I did do one mock interview session um in LA. There was uh three or four of us from my class that were there. Um and and and that that helped me kind of put and put it into perspective. But I also had conversations with people who had judged leather contests before. Um and and a lot of it just really comes down to getting comfortable with my own frame of mind going in. Where so when when I first went for that that mock interview panel, um, the first run of the interview was a nightmare. Um, I I fell flat on my face, figuratively. Um, because I was in my head of like, oh, I need to give the perfect answer, I need to do this, and I need to. And so we all did our our answers, and then the the people who were on the the mock judging panel, like we had spank cake, Grace was there, she asks really good questions. Uh Mochielle from the year before me was on that panel. Like, there were a handful of really good people. And the feedback they gave was this is a conversation. We're not trying to grill you. Most people on the judging panel are not trying to ask you trick questions. We just want to get to know who you are. So, and and no one on that judging panel is better than you at all. They may have a they may have won a contest, right? Um, but no one on that judging panel is better. They are all your peers. And if you go in, and so a lot of of my prep work for the interview was that internal kind of like reminder of like, no, I I'm not, I don't need to prove myself. I just need to showcase who I am. Um and so a lot of it really does come down come down to that. Now, I will say there is there is a strategy. What's the strategy? Um so a couple of things. The first is the more questions you get through, the better. Because the more questions you get through, the more eight minutes lets people let's so right. You only have eight minutes, and it is strict. So eight minutes, nine judges. So if you spend two minutes answering your first question, the judges do not have a lot to go on. And that comes down to the bio too, because they they can ask anything from the bio, anything they know about you, anything they can ask about anything you're wearing. Right? Any of that is is fair game. So A, make sure your bio is clear. B don't include something in your bio you are not ready to answer a question about. Because I'm I'm sure you've also seen a number of bios where it's like, oh, you are bullshitting me right now. Cool, I'm gonna ask about that. Yes, yes. 23-year-old leather man with two years of experience who's big into old guard values. Okay, let's talk about that. Right. Um and the other thing too is if you're going to practice anything, practice being succinct. Because the less you ramble when you answer, the easier it is for you to get through more questions.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

And the easier is to lose the thread of the question and and like forget what the question was. Also that. And it is a tricky balance because you don't want it too short, but you don't want it too long. I think succinct is a good way to describe it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:01

Um, and and I mean, one of the big things too, because a lot of people talk about do research on your judges, but they don't explain why. From my perspective, the big thing about like do research for your uh about who your judges are is not necessarily a I'm going to placate to the judges. It is specifically for the interview. If they're a little unclear when they're asking the question, the more I know about them, the more I will know what they're actually asking. Um, so I had a couple of questions during my interview that had I not done my research ahead of time, I would have no idea what they were actually asking. Um, like one of the one of my judges was Master Taino. And on his bio, I saw he wrote a book. I read the book. I bought the book and I read it. And um, I, you know, in that book, he makes it very clear a lot of his approach to power dynamic is from a total power exchange master slave situation. And so the question that he asked me pertained to power dynamics in a very vague sense. The question he was asking me about was master slave dynamics. And I could I could read through that because I'd done my research. So it's not about giving the judges what they want or what you think they want, it's about having a better idea of where they're coming from so you can better answer the questions.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah, I love how you're framing this because I've always felt like the interview, it's not a it's not really a job interview. It really is, it is that conversation that you talked about. And they're looking for someone who can speak to them as a peer, someone who can really enter into actual conversation with them and not be too intimidated. Like you really have to kind of step up and treat these people as though they as though you're in the same community. And I I think that's what you're saying, right? Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:53

Absolutely. I mean, I do think there is an element of of job interview to it in terms of they recognize, okay, well, this title comes with a platform, it comes with a certain amount of social cachet. So it's like, are you going to abuse that? Are you someone that um fills the need at the moment, right? So some of the questions are likely going to reflect that. Um and that will change year to year. That's that's why there's no real blueprint for the interviews, because like, no, the community needs to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Was there any question that really stumped you, or you think you're just totally flubbed? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

Not really. Um I I remember I had one question that um it had to do with compassion or empathy, something along those lines. And um God, it again, it was just eight minutes, so it I don't remember all of the questions because it went by so fast. But yeah, I remember one question was about compassion or empathy, and it's like, where did you learn about compassion or where did you like where did that first connect with you or something along those lines? And I just remember my answer was just I paid attention to Sesame Street when I was like, and I I remember thinking it's like that was a really weak answer, but like I don't think I really messed any of the.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

And I don't think that's a weak answer. I think in part, because again, you have eight minutes and the judges are seeing 70 people or more, right? So I think it's important for them. They need to remember who the fuck you are when you leave the room. So answers that are unique or make them chuckle, answers that really impress them. And I also tell people like you kind of have to have a hook. You can't talk about generic statements about community and blah, blah, blah. You really need to have a a quick short story that really gives an example of that, right? Like you, your your answer has to stick with the judges.

SPEAKER_05 30:57

Absolutely. Um, like I said before, I mean, everything that you present that weekend has to be intentional. It has to be coming from a place of intent. Um, and that means it's thought out. That means that you put effort into it beyond, yeah, let's go with that. Right. Um to the like if you're wearing a harness, why did you choose that harness? Right? Was it was it a gift? Does it have paneling on it that showcases who you are? Like that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

When you were done with the interview, did you think like, hey, I did pretty good, or what were your thoughts after the interview?

SPEAKER_05 31:30

I had no thoughts. My mind was empty. So so here's the thing. When when you compete, you are split up into groups of 10 based on your contestant number. So I was number 32, so I was with the um 31 to 40 group. And that dictates when your interviews are. My interview section was 8 a.m. Saturday morning. I had done the stage portion of the Friday night because the Friday is when they do the first stage bit. Um, so I was I was tired. I was on, I think I was on my second Red Bull by the time I was in there for interviews. Um yeah, no, by the time I was done, once we were done the interviews, I just um I allowed myself to overthink a little bit just because, you know, I I was in a safe space to do that and all that kind of stuff. But I wasn't I was trying not to dwell just because it's like, okay, well, that's done. Whatever I said, whatever came out of my mouth, I can't fix it. I can't change it, I can't edit. So I'm just gonna focus on it.

Writing A 90-Second Speech That Lands

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Well, I'm a contestant in this year's class. Um, I uh going into the interviews, I need to really work on giving sis succinct answers. I want to do research on the judges, not to kiss ass, but to really maybe have a better perspective of what they're really asking me. Any other tips for people going into the interview Don't sabotage yourself ahead of time.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

Um don't overthink. Do not overthink. You know, that's exactly that like people who overthink, that's gonna make them overthink. I know, I know. I it essentially it comes down to if you if you give yourself a panic attack beforehand, if you psych yourself out beforehand, you are you are doing yourself a disservice. And if you overthink in in in the moment, then you are likely going to elaborate too much. You are likely going to start spiraling, make answer, all this stuff, right? Um and one one other piece of advice that I would give, and this is going to sound counterintuitive given some of the other stuff I mentioned, but um when you hear the question, take a breath before answering. Do not just barge into it. Give yourself that half second to a second to just like, okay, there was a question, process, go. Right? You don't want to you don't want to over like um you don't want to anticipate the answer before they're done answering the asking the question.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Um there's a lot of people who uh study every bit of leather history as though it's a quiz show. Did you do that? Do you think that's necessary? Did you get leather history quiz questions in your interview?

unknown 34:39

I thought I told it more than I did.

SPEAKER_05 34:43

Um I I remember because okay, one of my judges, the one judge, and I spoke I've spoken to him about this since. One of my judges was uh Mufasa Ali, one of the founders of Onyx. And I'm like, this is one of the only judges I've not met before. This is one of the only judges I know, nothing other than the like 50 mile-long resume you find online when you when you look them up. I'm like, oh no. Oh, he's going to ask me something about Onyx. I am a little white boy from Canada. I am terrified. Um, and his question to me was, well, it shows here on your bio, you like musicals. So what would your leather journey what what what musical would you associate with your leather journey as it is now? And in my head, I'm going, that's what you're asking me. Are you fucking kidding me right now? Um, and for the record, I said a combination of League of Kwan and Tu Wong Fu. Um it wasn't as much leather history, so much as questions about the community as it is now. So um to the people that are competing this year, don't be surprised if you get asked about the trans community. Don't be surprised if you get asked something pertaining to immigration in some way.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:07

Right? That's don't be surprised if you get asked something pertaining to the people who are marginalized within our community. Because that is where the spotlight is right now. Justin.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

I also feel like, you know, when I when I'm doing mock judging, I I ask, I ask the sorts of, I ask, I like to think they're mean questions. They're not really mean. They're really about things going on right now. And I'm like, if if I every time I open my Facebook, I see exactly what's, I see the latest controversy, right? Because everyone's posting about such and such happened at such and such event. And and it it shows that I'm plugged into the conversation of the community because it's all over my feed. And I just want people to be able to be aware of what's happening, not just these sort of generic, I mean, not generic, these broad issues like trans issues, but this incident like the um the touche anniversary party. Like you need to have known what that was about because it does show in a very specific sense a lot of these larger issues. And so I think people really just need to be paying attention to other leather people and what they're saying. And social media is a great way to access that.

SPEAKER_05 37:14

It is, I will caution though, it's also a really great way to actually create your own echo chamber. Um, and be stuck within your own little narrative just because of how algorithms work, right? So if you are getting ready to run for this title, which is a global title, being aware of what's going on outside of your own home community is a really good idea.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Um let's talk about the speech. How much experience? I mean, presumably with all the other um stage things you did, like in the Imperial Court, you had some comfort in being on stage or at X theater. Like how how comfortable were you speaking in public to start with? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_05 38:05

Um I I feel fairly comfortable speaking in public. I know it it it took some it takes practice just like any other any other skill. Um, but I I I feel pretty comfortable speaking on on on stage and speaking in front of people. I will say uh one of the things I took in college was a uh public speaking class. So that helped. Um but yeah, it's it's definitely something that if you're not used to um and you don't have a vehicle within your title to like for them to constantly put you in front of people to talk, seek those opportunities out. Seek out those opportunities to be like, hey, can I talk about this? Or hey, this event is happening. Would you like me to present a whatever? Or would you like me to whatever? Um, even down to um stuff like, oh, there's there's this event happening. Do you want me to sell 50-50 tickets? Putting yourself out there and knowing how to talk in front of people.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

And I I also recommend Toastmasters, which is an organization that's really all about public speaking.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

Yes. I I have not uh dived into it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about them.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

How did you for sure how did you approach your speech? What did you write it out and memorize it? Did you have talking points? How did you conceive it?

SPEAKER_05 39:21

Tell us that process So the thing for me is when when I am writing, um when I'm writing something that I want to present publicly, if I'm not going to be reading it, um memorization is one of your worst enemies. Um because this is not a situation where it's like a stage play or a show where people know what the script should pretty much be. No one knows what you're gonna say other than you. So you do not need to memorize. What you need to do is remember what are the main points that you want to hit and a pretty solid idea of how to get from one to the other. So for a 90-second speech, and when I say 90 seconds, I mean at 91 seconds they cut the mic. The timer starts when you say your first word, and at 91 seconds, the mic literally gets cut off. You're done. So for a 90-second speech, um I plan kind of three main points to hit. You've got your starter, you've got a point that you want to reach in the middle, and then you have your finisher that you want to land on. Everything else just ties those main points together. More than that, you're putting in too much. Less than that, and you are relying on a lot of filler. So um so like that's kind of that that's one of the main things that I want to think about when I'm kind of when I was writing this speech. Uh the other thing too is if you if you are someone that needs to memorize it, cool, I understand that. But if you memorize it too well, all of a sudden a lot of the emotions are memorize it too well, it it's clear it's a performance.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

And if it's a performance, it doesn't seem authentic. It doesn't seem like it's really coming from you.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

Right. Correct. And unless you are a really good actor, uh, that's gonna be difficult. Uh emulating emotion in this like in the moment is a difficult thing. So um by all means, if you need to memorize it, some people that that's what they need to do. They cannot give a speech extemporaneously. Um and so cool, memorize it. But then don't don't beat a dead horse. Right? Learn it well enough that you have it down. Um, and the other thing too is the audience is not going to react the way you think they're going to react at the points that they're going to react. So if you have a 90-second slot for a speech, do not write an 85-second speech. Because you will have slowdowns. You will have points where the audience is going to react, and you need to slow down so that you can be heard after the audience dies now. Right? So 90 seconds to give a speech, a minute 10 at most. If you are just reading it out. Um, and I remember I think I had a minute 15, and even so there is a timer that's visible from the stage. Um, there's a big LED timer there that's visible to you, not the audience, so you know where you're at. And I remember I got towards the end of my speech. I looked down at the timer quickly and it said 10 seconds left. I'm like, I have another 20 seconds worth of material. I'm fast forwarding. And I had to make an edit right there on the spot. That's the other reason where if you need to memorize it, that might mess with you, right? Is is if all of a sudden something happens and you need to edit, oh no, I didn't say this word, so I don't know what comes after, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Now your big moment in the speech was choking on it. Like that was that was that line we was that line planned in advance, like that's gonna be that's gonna be my moment. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:12

The entire speech ended up being written with those three line, those three words in mind. Um, because I knew that was going to be the finisher. That was going to be the big hit, right? And so that was the other reason that I had to edit right at the end, because I like I knew if I don't plan those three words, the entire speech falls apart. It's kind of like it's kind of like the the the big boulder scene in Indiana Jones, and all of a sudden the DVD starts skipping. Like there's no payoff. Shit. Um, so no, I I definitely I didn't plan that from the beginning, but as the speech was being crafted and as I was writing it and doing these edits, It really became clear. It's like, no, that's the payoff. That's what I need to hit.

Winning And Building Support Systems

SPEAKER_02 44:04

So you win. You're now international, Mr. Leather. Let's talk about what it's like to be that. Like, let's start by thinking about what support systems you had and what self-care practices you had. Because I imagine being IML is a lot. Like, how do you navigate both the demands on your time and energy, but also just the sort of pressure of being that title? Like, what did you do to really take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_05 44:37

So I will say one of the big, big things, and I learned this actually from my involvement with the court, because those I remember I did two title years back to back. Do not recommend. But I remember I had friends that I would hang out and socialize with that were not involved, not even just in the court. They weren't involved in the gay community that I could go and hang out with and know we're playing video games, we're playing board games, we're doing whatever. And I'm not engaging with that stuff at all. Because so you it is incredibly important to have people in your life that like, no, I just want to go and be human with you for a second. And I don't even need to worry about it. Because if you are constantly in that place of, I have this title, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have this event coming up, I have to do this. That's how you burn out. That is how you have title holders that step down and you never hear from them again. That is how you have title holders that quit six months in, right? Because a big part of it is they did not recognize the need to have that separation at least on occasion to be able to breathe. Um the other thing too is I I will say this to the person, whoever ends up winning, um have a system in place to be able to uh funnel social media messages and emails like immediately. Because you will I so I spent I want to say a month going into Facebook Messenger and responding to messages because all of a sudden I I got hundreds, if not thousands, of oh my god, congratulation messages on Facebook Messenger alone.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

That's in all of your social, I'm sure your DMs on Instagram and and your TikTok, like everywhere, everywhere you are, people are reaching out to congratulate you and then to ask you things like can you come to our event, I'm sure. And you can't let that slip through the cracks.

SPEAKER_05 46:44

Right. Right. So what I so I set up an email address pretty quickly. Uh I funneled everyone through there. And um at least for the first couple of weeks, what I was told to say and what I ended up doing was telling these people, hey, thanks for the invite, thanks for the info. Let me get back to you. Give me a couple of weeks to organize my thoughts and figure out what I'm doing. Right. Um, and there's there's like a diplomatic way of approaching all of that. You know, don't just get back to like, can you just like not right now? Leave me alone for a couple of weeks, right? Don't do that. But um just like, hey, um, thanks. I would I would love to look into this. Let's see what we can do. I'm gonna take a look at my calendar, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

I guess I think a lot of people um but yeah spend a lot of time and energy figuring out how to win or how to compete, but you also have to spend time and energy figuring out how you're gonna live with it if you do win. You've got to have those self-care systems in place. You've got to have a communication management idea in place, right?

SPEAKER_05 47:50

I would actually take it one step further than that. Have a an idea in mind of what of how you want to move forward regardless of the result. So, what was recommended to me was four have four different plans in mind. One for if you do not make top 20, what do you do? One for if you do make top 20, because all of a sudden you make top 20 and it's go. You need to go into your speech, all this stuff, right? Um, one for if you make podium and one for if you win. Because there's there, you'll see both ends of the spectrum. You will see people that are dead set on like, I'm making podium or I'm gonna win, they don't make top 20, and all of a sudden they throw a fit backstage or they get distraught or whatever, because they were relying on this set outcome that didn't happen. On the flip side, you also have people that are like, oh no, I just I just want to go and have fun. I'm not gonna worry too much about it. All of a sudden they win or they make like first runner up or second runner-up. It's like, oh, my life is different now. Shit. Um, so yeah, at least have an idea, not like a set in stone plan, but at least have like a contingency idea of like, this is probably what my life's gonna look like. This is how I want to move forward after this weekend.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Basically, I think it's part of that. People need to know just because you don't win, if you make the podium, you're still getting a lot of requests to come judge, a lot of requests to show up. Like making podium also then instantly puts you in the spotlight and puts you on a circuit of travel.

SPEAKER_05 49:24

Yeah. I mean, you you've got um one of your local people, uh, he's done tons of judging, tons of judging. Um he's he's still very much in the spotlight. He came in first runner up with uh with Jamal. Yeah, uh David Muskeda came in uh second inner up that year. Um and and he's still very heavily involved. Um for my podium brothers, I mean we've got Zephyr who came in first runner up. He is everywhere. I I don't know how he travels as much as he does. Uh but he's he's fucking everywhere. Um Michael Techili, um, he he's had some personal stuff going on. So unfortunately he hasn't been able to travel a ton, but he's been around.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, I love that idea of uh of your four plans because you need a care plan for each one of those. Whether you win or lose, you need a care plan.

SPEAKER_05 50:14

Yep. Um like I am I am a giant nerd. Um I like my video games, I like my board games and stuff. So I I have a a Nintendo Switch, I have a portable game system, and it comes with me everywhere. So it's like, oh no, I need downtime. I'm gonna play this brain dead puzzle game for like 10, 15 minutes. I need a breather, right? Give give yourself the whatever the outlet is, give yourself an outlet to just like, I'm gonna shut off for a second. I can put the phone on, do not disturb for 15, 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Yeah, so now your IML, you've got your care plan in place. Uh, let's talk about what it's like to live that life. First of all, how much have you been traveling on average in a month? How many weekends are you gone?

Travel, Money, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_05 50:58

Um more than uh I am traveling more than every second weekend. Um I think by the time I will have stepped down, I counted it, and I think it's more now, actually, since I since I moved to Montreal, it's more. Um, but it's um I will have gone to somewhere between 35 and 40 events traveling. In less than a year. In less than a year. Um and yeah, so it's it's been a lot, but uh I will say the IML travel fund at this point is uh they've they've revamped it. There's a new executive in the last couple of years, a new um executive team. They've revamped a lot of it. A big uh a big chunk of it is the support for the person who wins. The travel fund is is good. Um and uh as well, it's it's if if someone wants me at an event, it's not unreasonable to for me to ask, okay, what accommodations are we talking here? Are you helping me get there? Um and in some cases they can't. I've had smaller events where they they would like me to come. And it's it's like it's a small group. It's a small boot black group that's like, hey, we'd really like you to come. We'll understand if you say no. And those are events that I've I've loved being able to go to because it's it's events outside of like the the alphabet soup of conventions, you know, your MALs, your MWLCs, your right. But it's events that really um building.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Well, I gotta say, if you're if you're a community organizer and you want to get an IML tier event, even if you don't have money for an airfare, I mean you can probably find someone to host, save them the the hotel cost, because hotels are fucking expensive, right? So just having someone like you can crash at my place, and it's actually usually nicer to crash at someone's place than be in a hotel too. So at least offer that, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

Yes. Um and and not that this is not related to anything that has happened. I want to preface this, but if you are an organizer and you are opting for, hey, we're gonna find someone's place that you can crash at, make sure you vet the person that they're gonna be staying with. Again, not related to anything that happened to me, but just I I you know make sure that's like, oh yeah, no, it's not just a random community member. It's like, oh no, this is a member of the board that we trust or a whatever. It's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Um, have you had to spend a lot of your own money this year in the travel, or have you been able to do most of the travel between the travel fund and group sponsoring you? Or let me guess that, let me put it this way how much um ballpark has it cost you personally to be IML?

SPEAKER_05 53:38

Um I would I would say the thousands, probably. And it's here's the thing, it's not the um, it's not the the travel and hotel and that kind of stuff. Because that's the stuff that's really easy to be like, oh, I'm gonna submit that receipt for a refund. I'm gonna submit that whatever. It's the oh no, just the the short Uber trip from the hotel to the venue. It's the the the meals, it's the um, you know, oh, I should probably bring something for my host. So, you know, it's it's the small incidental stuff throughout the year. And so it's not the sticker shock of like, oh, I need to spend$1,500 right now. Shit. It's the oh, I have spent$10 a hundred and fifty times.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

And this is also important for people who are competing and who may end up winning is this sort of how much of your life is going to disappear, how many, how many of your weekends are going to disappear? How does that fit with your life? And how much of your own money you're gonna have to put in, and how does that fit with your finances? So those are those are considerations people need to be having in mind.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Absolutely. The other thing that I want to uh really emphasize is it is really easy to go into this and you know, Mr. X ends up winning. And Mr. X going, oh, I need to be another Jamal, I need to be another Ralph Bruno, I need to be another um Jack Thompson, I need to be another Renee, I need to compare myself to my previous winners. I need, if I don't travel every weekend, I have failed as IML. No. Um the expectation, the actual on paper you are required to do is come back to IML next year and judge. There, the travel fund that you're given is because yes, you that there's a there's community expectation that you're gonna travel and you're gonna do all this stuff. And yes, the the the I understand the desire to be at all these events and to travel all the time and all this kind of stuff. Real life happens. Real life is is going on while all the title stuff happens. So if you can only make it to 15 events during your year, might not be the year you were hoping for, but that's okay. You don't need to be everywhere all at once. Um, especially now that we have social media as robust as it is, you it is a lot easier to develop an online platform uh through YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook still. Um it's it's you can have community reach and you can have international reach without all this pressure of I need to be everywhere and I to be need to be.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Well, also, I mean, I love that you said you don't have to be, you know, title holder X who came before you, because I feel like part of what I've been seeing IML is doing, because IML is a spotlight, and what they've been doing is being thoughtful about where they want to bring that spotlight. Like Marcus was going to Latin America a lot, right? Like because those communities really needed some uplifting and some support. You've talked about doing boot black events, boot blacking is still very important to you. So part of once you're IML, you get to be in intentional, not you have to be intentional not only to get there, but intentional about your title year and what events you choose to do.

Forge Your Own Title Year

SPEAKER_05 56:54

Right. Um, a big part of IML, it is it is an incredibly unique opportunity. And I think my personal opinion is if you are spending that opportunity making sure that you are following in someone's footsteps, you are wasting that opportunity. Having the title of IML means that you have the platform to forge your own path and to influence the community in ways that are important to you. And I genuinely think that that that is the opportunity that needs to be grabbed. Um, and that that will change year to year. Um, the the the person that wins this year might specifically have trans issues as the the big forefront for them. And that might be where they focus. Their issue on a personal level might be like, hey, let's see more cohesion between the leather and rubber communities. And they may focus on taking the IML title to rubber events, right? So I I genuinely don't think the goal is to find an IML who will emulate another IML. I think the goal is to find an IML that will take that title and forge their own path with it.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

Awesome. So let's think about also some of the changes taking place. Um International boot blacks coming back, yes.

SPEAKER_05 58:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Are you gonna go get that one next? A twofer.

SPEAKER_05 58:23

No. Um okay, here's here's the thing. So I I would be lying if I said it didn't cross my mind. It would be an amazing like hat trick to be like, oh, I got both, or I ran for both, even, right? But what purpose would that serve? I I've been told I've boot blacked more as IML than some other international boot black title holders during their title year. And as far as I'm concerned, it's like, yes, I am I I am international Mr. Leather. Me being a boot black means I am interpreting that to also be a boot black title. I am boot blacking as I'm traveling to different events as well. And I I don't think anything would be gained for me personally or at a community level for me to decide to run for international Mr. Boot Black. That that to me that would be pure ego. And I don't need that. I says that that kind of defeats the purpose for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

Also, just I I need a gap.

SPEAKER_05 59:36

I I I I people have asked me, it's like, what are you looking for from stepping down? Or are are you looking forward to to, you know, after IML is done? I'm like, I'm looking forward to sleeping. I'm I'm looking forward to to rest.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

There have also been some changes in the rules around IML. Um and Yes. Can you speak to I don't know if you're I don't know what you're allowed to speak to since you're like bound by the organization, but can you speak a little bit to your thoughts on them or or why you think IML made those changes or what you think the implications are?

Rule Changes And One-Time-Only Debate

SPEAKER_05 1:00:12

So I think just based on the conversations that I've had. Now, to be fair, I have not been involved in any of the planning discussions for those changes. Um, IML the title holder and IML the business entity work in conjunction and work together. Sure, yeah, totally different bodies. So um uh so I I will say at a base level, it is literally just capacity to adapt to having that many contestants. Like there needs to be I think at this point we're at 72 competing after the changes. There have been people that had to back out of competing when the changes were implemented. Um, now to be fair, no applications have gone in at this point, as far as I understand it. That process hasn't been opened yet, I don't think. Or at least at the time they announced the changes, the applications hadn't been open yet. So no one had actually gone into like, I'm competing, because there's still an application that you need to fill out and all this kind of stuff. Um but uh having been back there with 68 of us, that is a cramped space. And so some of it really did have to do with logistics of dealing with that many contestants. Um and I think that's a big part of it, to be perfectly honest. I mean, uh looking looking ahead, uh, I'm gonna be on the judging panel for at least 70 contestants, and that is uh I'm I'm hoping we have a squad for like Monster Energy or something, because I'm gonna I'm gonna need my caffeine. Um but um so the the the big kind of controversial ones that I could that I saw um from from the discourse were they're changing it to your all-day long to compete once period. That is the big one. Um and I have not spoken about this openly very much, but I will say if someone is interested in competing, now the rules changes are not applying to boot black. That they they are only affecting IML, not international Mr. Boot Black. So I will preface that. If someone wants to run more than once, I would wonder, I I I would be interested in knowing why. Because there is an argument to be to be made about like, well, I'm no I'm not the same person anymore. I I improved. It's like, okay, cool. We're not testing on skills here. We're the this is not a situation of like I have developed um better leathercrafting skills, or I have become a better public speaker, I've become a better whatever, right? Like that as far as I'm concerned, this is not a matter of of skills. And so, okay, cool. No, you've you've improved in various ways, great. But I don't know if that really comes into play here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

Yeah, I'm gonna say the thing. The flip side and the other thing. Because I this is the post I saw on Facebook and I found it very compelling. I saw someone who had competed and who had competed very young saying, this will discourage very young people from competing because you only get one shot. And do you want to do it when you're that young, or do you want to wait? And I feel like, okay, that that might be true. Like some people may just say, I'm not gonna do it because I'm too young. Thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:43

I think so I understand the argument. I do. I will circle back to what I was saying earlier about me running for an international leather boy at 22, 23-ish, something like that. I don't think I had any business being there. Um I did not know who I was at that point. So I think having um, I think there is value to having younger members of the community in positions of community leadership, which asterisk community leadership does not equal title holder or vice versa. I will say that. There is value to having a younger member of the community in a position of community leadership. There is a value to having a younger member of the community having a position where they can be heard and where they can be respected and listened to. I am of the opinion, having gone through it, that IML as a process is something that I would only really encourage someone to go for if they are really aware and really sure of who they are. Um, and that takes time. So there is benefit to competing when you are younger. Absolutely. There really is a sense of brotherhood. Now, not everyone taps into that when they when they compete, right? You are dealing with um at this point almost 70 people per year competing for IML. Not everyone's gonna have the same response to to that process. Um, and some people do come out dated, which is really unfortunate. I hate that that happens. Um however, I will say that there is a real sense of brotherhood and community that is built throughout the process of competing. You are tapped into um uh a real sense of family. Now, I will say family does not mean we get along, but it is a shared experience of if if you go to MAL, you will see a bunch of people with these contestant medallions. And it's like, oh, we can at least bond and hang out over having done this together in some capacity. Um and I I genuinely think competing more than once diminishes that at a person level. Um because it makes it less special for that one person to a degree. Um was it the right answer uh right move to make? I don't know. Um and I think that that's something that we might have to wait a couple of years to see how it ends up happening, how it ends up kind of like um all falling into place. Um and I know that it was not an easy uh decision to make. Um having spoken with members of the executive, having spoken with last year's den daddy, who's also this year's Den Daddy, um, Miguel. Um like this was not an easy decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

I will I will second you on the fact that this was really a logistics decision because I've I know some people who are in the organization and we're really concerned about the numbers and we're thinking about other, like maybe we need regional titles that then feed into, right? Like they needed to think about how do we not have 70 people because it's a lot. So this wasn't motivated by trying to cut out certain people or punish certain people as much as manage the numbers. That's my sense. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:39

Um if if we have too many contestants, I think that that is going to take away from the experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

Well, it's also just sort of like how the hell do we keep this um how do we logistically, how do we get these many interviews? How do we not have a show that's this long, right? Like it's just very like that, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:59

You're you're already looking at uh between the two nights, about eight hours of stage.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

Although interestingly, this is something I learned when I was on the mock panel at Austin Kink weekend last year, that if you win, if you land on the podium, you will have spent 13 minutes with the judges. That's all you get. You get 13 minutes for them to know who you are, total. And most of the things eight of that is the interview. Yeah. And the rest is speech and um stage presence.

unknown 1:08:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

Um I wanted to change a little bit and move to a more personal level um and start by saying fuck ice. So even I mean, this was not particularly because of ice, but you had a really challenging personal move happen. Can you tell us what happened and kind of share that news with the audience?

Immigration, Life Upheaval, And Resilience

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

Yes. Um, so long story short, I I am a Canadian. I was living in Palm Springs starting in 2017. I went down on a student visa. And so um, for those of you who don't know, um after you finish your education, you can apply for a one-year work extension on your student visa. It still falls within the student visa, but it allows you to work within the OPT, I believe it's called. And then after OP OPT, that's correct. Uh and then after that, you need to move to an actual work visa. Now, being Canadian, I uh have access to a it's not even technically a visa so much as it's like a work status or work permit called the trade agreement status. Mexicans get that too. It's tied into NAFTA, yeah. Um Mexicans get that too, however, they have additional forms to fill out for it, I think. Or there's like an additional form. Um but as a Canadian, it's just like, hey, yes, I have a letter of offer of employment from this from employer XYZ. Here are my qualifications, and here's the job title that falls within this finite list of job titles that qualify for TN. So I applied for that um after my one-year work extension. And when I went initially, they worked with me. They they were like, oh yeah, no, we can make this work. They were eager, they were really friendly. It all worked very well and it was a very, very smooth process. I went to renew it because my TN was expiring December 23rd. I went to renew it in October. So we flew up to the Canada-US border because you can only file for this at a land port of entry. Um, and I went there with all of the same paperwork, same like letter of recommendation, everything. I had like my bachelor's degree, all of my qualifications, certifications, all that stuff. And um from the onset, they were antagonistic. The entire mood was different. And of course, they're not going to be fully transparent. Um the the the information that they give you is not necessarily going to reflect the full picture of the information happening in the background. Um, and because you are in no man's land, the um legalities around what they can do, uh repercussions around behavior, all that kind of stuff, it it kind of falls outside of like Canadian and US legality, right? So um it along the lines of like, if I started the process and part way through I went, well, fuck it, I'm just gonna go. They can turn around and go, oh, okay, well, we're going to detain you and then kick you out of the country, and then you can't come back for 10 years or permanently or whatever, right? So it's like once you're in, you have to go for the ride. Um and at the end of it, they basically said, Well, we're not going to approve the renewal. We have no issue with you. We have an issue with the employer and the job position that you're filing with the employer because they're too small of a business, which I highly doubt that that was the actual reason, but meh. Um, and so it just it's a lot of stuff that didn't line up, and it was a very uncomfortable antagonistic process the entire time. Um, but because they said, well, you qualify for this from a um credentials perspective, we're not placing the blame on you, so we're not putting a strike or an action against you. You just need to be gone by December 23rd. We don't care where you go, just you can't stay here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

So um so we ended up making plans to um essentially move me to Montreal, which is where I'm at now.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

And you had a polycule in Palm Springs, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:03

Mm-hmm. And I still do, it's just it's long distances.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

How hard is that for you?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:13

Yeah. It's hard. Um I I am used to being with these people almost daily. Um I am used to living in a place with loved ones. Um and now I'm living in a one-person condo in Montreal and it gets lonely. Um we I mean we text daily, we FaceTime regularly. Um but it's I've had my moments. It um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

I think we all send our love to you. Uh thoughts and prayers. That's all we can do. Um certainly if you're in this year's class where I am out, like if you're not ready to talk about immigration, like just don't even show up. Because I also know there have been accusations over in in California of people calling out people as illegals and things like that. Like there's just been some nastiness surrounding immigration. Oh, that's that's been problematic.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:16

Um, that's been everywhere. Um Yeah, I I think that there are definitely I will I'll be honest, I don't know what I'm gonna ask during the interview yet, but I've got a few months to figure that out. But um I I think if you are looking at competing and you are not thinking about the how you would address the current societal norm, as much as I hate calling it a norm, but that's what we're dealing with right now. Um I think you are definitely doing yourself a disservice.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

And I think this isn't just for US contestants, like international contestants really need to be thinking about the immigration situation in the US and how they're gonna be able to get to U.S. events and how are they gonna use their play, how are they gonna sort of resist that? Like this is something for everyone competing.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:05

It's something for everyone competing, but it's also not just a US issue either. We're we're dealing with anti-immigrant rhetoric in Europe. A lot of huge in England as well. Um Yes. Uh oh God, when I went when I went to London there for for for a week, um I I did not realize how big it was there too. And it's like, oh, oh these oh oh no. Um so yeah, it's it this is this is genuinely a worldwide issue. Um I know there's there's a habit of a lot of focus being on the US and on what's happening in the United States, but this is this is a worldwide issue. Um and and it it makes my heart hurt because it's like, how did we get here? I we could then we could have a whole conversation about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

So um any other advice you'd give to someone in this year's class for IML or in a future class of IML, what like what advice do you have for them?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:12

So my my advice is go in with as few preconceived ideas as possible. Go in being open to embracing whatever that process is for you, whatever you end up experiencing in the moment. Make as memory, as many memories as you can, because it will go by so fast. It'll feel like it's going incredibly slowly and incredibly quickly at the same time. Um, you're gonna start on Thursday and you're gonna go, I've got so much ahead of me, oh my god, and then by Sunday it's like, what happened? Um get to know your contestant siblings, because you will forge friendships that will last a very long time. Um and just embrace competing for the opportunity that it is, which is being celebrating being as authentic as you possibly can. Um by the time I um so again, my interview was Saturday morning, which means by the time Friday night was done, all I had done as far as like scored stuff was the physique and stage presence, the first one, because there's two of them. Um and I remember by the time Friday night was done, I would have been content with last place because I got to just be myself and be authentic in front of uh a lot of people that I've come to really love and respect and admire. And um, that was the big that was the big prize for me. Um and I remember when they were announcing the top 20, I was the third to last announced for top 20. By the time we got to about 15, I'm just there doing the math in my head. I'm going, I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:04

That's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:05

Like my interview didn't go as well as I thought it might have, and all this stuff, and it's it's okay. And I was at peace with that. Um, and then all of a sudden my name was announced. It's like, oh shit, what was my speech again? Um, because that goes fast. Uh but um yeah, just just embrace the opportunity for what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:24

What I hear you saying is that a lot of this is it's an inside job. It's being comfortable in your skin, it's about knowing who you are, it's about being comfortable with who you are, it's being able to communicate who you are. It's all on the it's so much more on the inside that gets you ready than the outfits themselves.

unknown 1:18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

Completely.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:43

I mean, yeah, I mean, that's we all have an element of like shallow vanity to us. The the the the the the visual is is part of it, but the what you gain from the internal everything is is priceless. Um and uh I will say, and the the entire class has heard this multiple times, and I will say it again. Look forward to the medallion ceremony when you all get your contestant medallions because it is a very special moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:17

On that note, um, for anyone listening, I will be again at Austin Kink weekend. We're doing a mock interview panel. If you can make it, please come out. If not, um there look for local resources that can help you in in all the ways that we've talked about. And Renee, oh my God, thank you so much. I feel like you've just shared so much behind the curtain kind of things, and I think people really appreciate that. And I personally deeply appreciate you, I will say that.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:45

Well, thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:47

And I will see you in Austin. You're judging there's a boot black con.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:52

I I am I am the head.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:56

And I am judging Mr. Something. I forget Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:00

I think that's what I'm judging. There we go. Um, did you want me to plug my socials here? You're gonna send me my socials.

Ask Edge: Balancing Kink And Life

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

It's all gonna be in the show notes. So if you want to follow Renee on all his socials, which really he does a lot of good education and we love educational resources, go to the show page and it'll be in the show notes. And thanks again, Renee. And now we have AskEdge, the segment where I answer questions from all of you. If you have a question that you'd like answered, please email it to ask at foolcal.show, or even better, leave me a voicemail at speakpipe.com slash leatheredge. That's speakpipe.com slash lthr e-t-g-e. Those links are available in the show notes. And today we have one question from Simon in Belgium.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:58

Hey Edge. First and foremost, a big thank you for the work that you do and the podcasts that you make. As a young letter boy from Belgium myself, uh, it has given me great insights into the community. Um my question for you is what at uh what's your advice for people balancing their normal life and their friends with the letter person that they are? And how do you make friends in the community when you don't want to make the people around you look at you differently? How did you handle this when you first started? Um Thanks again and uh take care.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:31

What a great question. In fact, what great questions, because I'm actually hearing two questions. The first is about how do we balance our kink life and the other people in our lives, and then how do we make friends in the community? And those are two questions with two very different answers. Let's start with this question of how do you navigate being a kinky person and having family and friends and work friends, and some of your friends are kinky and some of them are not. And how do you move through all those different spheres in a way that feels honest and authentic and not scary? I will say this is never easy because of the amount of shame and approbation placed on people who are kinky that somehow there's something wrong with us. And so there can be a lot of fear in coming out to any given person about your kink or being kinky in any way. And in fact, classically, in the before time, in the long ago, in the early days of the community, around the time I was coming into the community, there were two coming outs. First, you would come out as gay, and then later you would come out as kinky, and then all of your gay friends would be really judgmental. It was a really difficult double process, shifted a little bit now. I think what I like to think about is that I have um expanding circles of intimacy. And the people who are very closest to me, the people who I trust the very most, are the ones who know all parts of my life. And then as I move outwards, some people might get vague hints about my life, and some people will not know about this side of my life. And how I make that judgment has to do with how safe do I feel with a person. I will say, for a long time, for years and years and years, I wore boots every day. Even when I got to Florida, for several years I wore boots every day. So there was a way in which I was always presenting a little bit of kink, but in a way that wasn't too noticeable, wasn't too obvious. So that was one strategy I used to always be visible as a kinky person. Eventually, I just got older and Florida's really hot and I didn't want to wear boots every day. But more importantly, what I've come to learn is that even if I don't reveal myself as a kinky person to some people in my life, I carry with me the who I am as a kinky person. And that means I act with integrity, I value communication, I respect boundaries, I make places safe for people, I recognize people's boundaries, I listen to their limits. All of the things I do in the context of the community, I carry into all my relationships. And then in addition, the sort of way I carry myself as a leather man, as a leather person, with a kind of authority and sometimes a kind of swagger, that manifests as well. So I would say at first, be very protective of that identity. Be very mindful of who deserves to know that side of you. And at first, it's the people you trust, your ride or dies, it's the people you trust with your life. And then that circle may expand over time based on how safe you feel. But for everyone in your life, you will be still living authentically. You don't have to tell them that you're a kinky person, but the qualities you develop through leather practice, through leather play, the qualities that shape who you are as a whole human being manifest in all parts of your life. So people will be getting to know you as a leather person because you're always acting in accordance with what it means to be a leather person, even if they don't know you are a leather person. There's also a question of how do you balance time and how do you juggle commitments? And that, I will say, as an introvert, not really my problem. But I think that also has to do with being mindful of your own inner resources, how social you like to be, how much time you have, what's going on in your city, what's going on in your life, and really making sure that you prioritize above everything else your own self-care. And sometimes self-care means going to the leather bar or going to the sex club and getting fucked all night. That's self-care. Sometimes self-care is hanging out with your family and spending quality time with them. And sometimes self-care is saying, nope, this weekend I'm not seeing anyone, I need to be by myself. So I think it's important to understand that your needs in terms of self-care are the baseline. And then beyond that, you fit people in where they fit. And sometimes that's going to be tricky, sometimes it's going to be hard to make time for everyone, but you really just do the best you can. And you try to communicate with people in your life about the challenges about that and ask for their patience and understanding. Now, the second question I'm hearing is about how do you make friends in the community? And this, I think, is really hard for me, right? It was really hard for me. Again, introvert, I don't like people. I have found every time I've moved, it usually takes me about three to five years to really ground myself in the community. Because you have to take time to meet people. And in any given, like any given night at the bar, there's only a fraction of the community who's actually out. So it takes a period of time to meet in different leather spaces, all these different leather people, before you even begin to know who your possible friends are. So the first thing I would recommend is being really patient, because it can be a slow process. Now, I'm coming from a place of introversion. If you're an extrovert, it's probably gonna be easy for you. Talk to everyone at the bar. Soak up all that social energy, fill up your well with social energy. For me as an introvert, what I do is I target people. There are people who I feel like I connect with, that I can spend time with, that don't drain my energy, and I intentionally invest in that friendship by asking them if they want to go out to the bar with me, asking them for coffee, asking them for dinner, asking them to come watch a movie with me. I have to make that investment, and I can't assume friendship's going to happen. For me, friendship is a project where I identify a target, I Invest in that target and then eventually assuming that all right and they've got to be investing back, they've got to be asking me to coffee and asking me to go out to the bar. And at some point it becomes self-sustaining. At this point, I have two local best friends, and one of them I have cigars with every Thursday, and one of them I have cigars with once a month. And those anchor points really ground that friendship. So step one, be patient, because it takes time just to find the potential friends. Step two, find the people that you think you have an affinity with and really invest the time and the energy to build that friendship. Beyond that, certainly you can go into groups if there's a local group, if there's a local club, if there's a boys' club, if there's a leather club, you can join the club. If that's a route for you, again, introvert, I don't like people, I don't do groups. But if you're more group-oriented, that's another great way to meet people. Volunteering at events is a great way to meet people because if particularly if you're at like registration or check-in, you're going to meet every single person there. So part of it is time, part of it is intentionality, and then part of it is putting yourself in places where you're going to encounter those people by diving into the community in ways of service, whether that's through a group or a club or an event. Ultimately, I just think friends are making friends is hard. Now, that's my experience. I'm um a I'm a complicated person. And uh and so this is a kind of hard question for me to answer because my route towards friendship is so shaped by my particular ability to gather and spend social energy. So I'm hoping your experience might be a little bit different. But those are my recommendations. So, in terms of balancing, think about expanding circles of intimacy and where you feel safe and who gets to be in the super inner circle and who's not. But also realize that even in the outer circles, you're still walking through your life as the same person because you're doing the same behaviors, the same values that you learn in the community. In terms of finding friends, it takes time, it takes some intention, and you can dive into the community through service as a way of exposing yourself to more people where you might find those points of affinity. That was a great question. I hope the answer was good. Um, I'm thrilled. I think it's the first question I've ever had from Belgium. Uh, so that really excites me. Thank you so much for for submitting it. And I hope all of you will consider sending in a question. And it can be about anything. I just really love doing this segment. It's a way for me to really connect with all of you instead of just sitting here in my office slash playroom talking to a microphone and looking at my Mac and seeing the waveforms on Audacity, which is fun, but not quite as fun as interacting with all of you. So thank you again, Simon, and please consider sending a question. And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Please consider subscribing, or you can send feedback to edge at fullcal.show. As always, may your leather journey be blessed.